Moses Wells

The Robert Caro interview.

Watch on YouTube; read the transcript.

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Timestamps

(00:00:00) – How Caro gets people to talk

(00:05:03) – Does America need a little more Moses today?

(00:12:42) – Moses the young idealist

(00:17:57) – Watching Moses lose power

(00:24:01) – Did Moses realize he was changing?

(00:27:53) – Building during the Great Depression

(00:32:51) – The threats and promises of Lyndon Johnson

(00:36:08) – Could Kennedy have passed Johnson’s laws?

(00:41:00) – Getting a book down to one sentence

(00:46:21) – All the material that never made it into the books

(00:52:59) – Loneliness

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dwarkesh.com

I recently got to interview Robert Caro, who is my favorite author of all time. 

This gave me the excuse to reread his biographies of Lyndon Johnson and Robert Moses, and to compile my prep notes into this video essay.

These guys pulled off some truly incredible schemes.

Thanks to Max Farrens, who paired with me in writing the script for this video essay.

If you just want to read the essay: https://www.dwarkesh.com/p/lessons-in-power

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dwarkesh.com

Kevin Roberts, Kellyanne Conway, Ben Rhodes and I battled it out a few weeks ago on a stage in Toronto. This was for a Munk Debate on the motion: “Be it resolved, this is America’s Golden Age.” It might not surprise you that I was arguing the negative, alongside Rhodes, a former senior adviser to Barack Obama and the co-host of “Pod Save the World.” Roberts and Conway were on the other side. Roberts is the president of the Heritage Foundation and an architect of Project 2025. Conway was Donald Trump’s senior counselor in his first term. The Munk Debates organization has kindly let us share the audio of that debate with you. If you haven’t heard of the Munk Debates, you should really check it out. It’s a Canadian nonprofit that, for more than 15 years, has been hosting discussions on contentious, thought-provoking topics. If you go to its site and become a supporter, you can watch the entire video archive. A classic I recommend: “Be it resolved, religion is a force for good in the world” with Tony Blair debating Christopher Hitchens. Note: This recording has not been fact-checked by our team.

What happens when two of America's most fearless voices on race come together for an unfiltered conversation? In this powerful episode, host Mick sits down with Emmy and Peabody-winning storyteller W. Kamau Bell and education equity architect Glenn Singleton to explore what drives their decades-long commitment to racial justice.

The conversation dives deep into what Bell calls "the Black baton" – the generational responsibility passed down through families to make life better for those who come after. "When my grandparents handed the black baton to my parents, it was lighter than when they got it," Bell explains, describing his mission to ensure it doesn't become heavier during his lifetime. Singleton echoes this sentiment, sharing that his work stems from recognizing that his generation has "more than we've ever had" and feeling responsible to continue the progress.

Both men offer practical wisdom about having these crucial conversations. Singleton breaks down his groundbreaking "Beyond Diversity" framework, celebrating its 30th anniversary, which begins with the fundamental question: "What impact does race have on my life?" Bell shares how he navigates these discussions with his three daughters, emphasizing that even his seven-year-old understands political realities in age-appropriate ways. "Justice is sometimes a thing you see that authority will tell you not to see," he explains, highlighting how he empowers his children to recognize injustice.

Perhaps most valuable is their guidance for those hesitant to engage in race conversations for fear of saying something wrong. Bell suggests examining your social circle – are you surrounded by people who will lovingly "call you in" when you misspeak? Singleton adds that understanding the "paramount importance of racial justice" in American society is the starting point, followed by recognizing that "race is a symbol of power" with whiteness at the top of the hierarchy.

Whether you're a parent trying to have these conversations with your children, a professional navigating workplace dynamics, or simply someone committed to building a more equitable society, this episode offers both inspiration and practical approaches to moving beyond comfort into the spaces where real change happens.

Connect & Discover W. Kamau & Glenn:

W. Kamau:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wkamaubell/

Website: https://www.wkamaubell.com/

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Substack: @wkamaubell

Book: The Awkward Thoughts of W. Kamau Bell

Glenn:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/courageousdove444/

Website: https://courageousconversation.com/

Book: Courageous Conversations About Race

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A good rule of thumb is that whatever Margaret Atwood is worried about now, the rest of us will likely be worried about a decade from now. The rise of authoritarianism. A backlash against women’s social progress. Climate change leading to social unrest. Advertising permeating more and more of our lives. We originally released this episode back in March 2022. But just like Atwood’s work, it somehow only got more relevant with time. Atwood is the author of at least 17 novels, including the classic “The Handmaid’s Tale,” as well as 20 books of poetry and nine collections of short fiction. When we spoke, she’d just published an essay collection, “Burning Questions.” And she has a new book coming out this fall, “Book of Lives: A Memoir of Sorts.” Mentioned: Art & Energy by Barry Lord Book recommendations: War by Margaret MacMillan Biased by Jennifer L. Eberhardt Secrets of the Sprakkar by Eliza Reid Charlotte’s Web by E. B. White Lord of the Rings by J. R. R. Tolkien Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Special thanks to Kristina Samulewski, Coral Ann Howells and Brooks Bouson. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobal, Kristin Lin, Jack McCordick and Aman Sahota. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

Raymond Hicks is an author, speaker, and advocate known for his book I'm Still Standing, which details his fight to clear his name after being wrongfully accused of a crime. His story of resilience and justice inspires others to persevere through adversity, and he continues to advocate for faith, determination, and justice. In this episode, Raymond reflects on the life lessons he learned, the role of his faith in navigating adversity, and the inspiration behind his book, I'm Still Standing. Takeaways: Integrity often comes with a price, but it defines character  Faith can provide strength in the darkest times Adversity can lead to a powerful purpose Sound Bites: "I questioned God, 'Why me?' And He replied, 'Why not you?' Faith is what kept me standing." "I refused to let my environment define me—I wanted my environment to reflect who I am."  Connect and Discover Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/imstillstandingraymondhicks Website: https://raymondimstillstan.wixsite.com/imstillstanding Youtube: @raymondhicks2305 Book: I’m Still Standing GoFundMe: Raymond Hicks a TRUE story of police corruption Email: [email protected] 𝗙𝗢𝗟𝗟𝗢𝗪 𝗠𝗘 𝗢𝗡: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mickunplugged/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mickunplugged/ Apple:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mick-unplugged YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIPaMel-Fb4zQmCSZDPHu4A LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mickhunt/ Website: https://www.mickhuntofficial.com     See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The legendary African American poet Nikki Giovanni passed away this week at the age of 81. Since fiercely coming onto the scene during the Black Power movement of the 1960s, Giovanni established a rich and powerful literary legacy. Her work often celebrated the power of Black joy contained within the fight for civil rights by reminding readers that "Black love is Black wealth".

Today on the show, we feature a conversation between Rachel Martin, host of NPR's Wild Card, and Nikki Giovanni from earlier this year.

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Some thoughts on how humans think, how economies grow and why the technologies we think will help so often hurt. Column: “Beyond the ‘Matrix’ Theory of the Mind” by Ezra Klein Episode Recommendations: Maryanne Wolf on how reading shapes our brains Cal Newport on the problems with the way we work My A.M.A. on A.I. Gary Marcus on the limits of A.I. Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld, Roge Karma and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Rollin Hu. Mixing by Sonia Herrero. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

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