--:-- Shamita Basu: This is In Conversation from Apple News Today. I'm Shamita Basu. Today, we're bringing you a special episode of our show.
--:-- Shamita Basu: About a month ago, I interviewed Josh Dean. He's a journalist and the host of the Apple TV Plus podcast, Hooked.
--:-- Shamita Basu: The podcast is about Tony Hathaway, a guy who went from working as a design engineer at the aerospace company Boeing to robbing 30 banks in a single year after becoming addicted to opioids.
--:-- Shamita Basu: His son Connor is a big part of the story. He also got addicted to opioids around the same time as Tony. And they remained close as they struggled through their addictions and recoveries.
--:-- Shamita Basu: When I first spoke with Josh Dean, the podcast Hooked was just getting started. Now, nine episodes later, the season is all out there.
--:-- Shamita Basu: So I caught up with Josh and Tony together to reflect on the series as it comes to an end.
--:-- Josh Dean: Well, Josh, I was hoping maybe you could do some reflecting for us.
--:-- Josh Dean: I mean, you've mentioned that this has been a very long project for you.
--:-- Josh Dean: You and Tony have been talking to each other for about three years now.
--:-- Josh Dean: How does it feel for you now to have this final installment of the story out there?
--:-- Josh Dean: Well, I'm, you know, really proud of what we've done and so thankful to especially to Tony and his family.
--:-- Josh Dean: You know, I said on the show that I think I haven't really ever spent this much time on a project.
--:-- Josh Dean: I've certainly never talked to the source of a story this many times for this long.
--:-- Josh Dean: But also just it was a really unique experience for me.
--:-- Josh Dean: I mean, I've been doing this a long time and Tony really opened up his life to me in a way that, you know, I don't think anyone ever has.
--:-- Josh Dean: And I think that's something that, you know, to him, it just seems normal now that we have these conversations.
--:-- Josh Dean: But it really is an abnormal thing that we did.
--:-- Josh Dean: And I think hopefully the result of it is that people got to see a real story of what happens when a life unravels, you know, in a way that you don't ever predict and that you have no control over and that maybe somebody you know is totally fine one day and the next day something happens that completely alters the course of their lives.
--:-- Josh Dean: So I feel like I feel lucky.
--:-- Josh Dean: I'm super thankful to him for having trusted me to tell it.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: I mean, it's been a great experience.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: You know, when I look back on my time when I was incarcerated, you know, I had so many people reaching out to me, sending me letters and emails from different, you know, magazines or media outlets wanting to do interviews and whatnot.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And I met Josh through, I think it was initially some emails.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And, you know, I was really looking for somebody that, you know, one that I know has the experience in the industry, but really, more importantly, somebody that was willing to let me tell my story and really put the emphasis on the opioid epidemic and Purdue Pharma and, you know, how many people have been harmed by Oxycontin.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And not really to be focusing on the bank robberies, which is what most people were interested in talking about.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Why do you think that happens?
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Why do you think that in so many cases when people would learn about my story, they were attracted to the bank robbery aspect and weren't digging as deep or weren't asking the questions that Josh was asking about addiction?
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Well, I think, I mean, bank robberies just has that buzz to it.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: You know, people get excited when they hear about it.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And it's I think it's something that people are really attracted to.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Maybe not so much if you're just strictly talking about opioid addiction, but hopefully they take the time to listen to the whole story and really understand the addiction aspect of it.
--:-- Josh Dean: It sort of seems like the first few episodes of the podcast seem like they're going to be about Tony, but it really does evolve into a story largely centered around the relationship between father and son, between Tony and Connor.
--:-- Josh Dean: When did you realize that the story was turning out that way?
--:-- Josh Dean: You know, when I wrote the initial magazine story that inspired this podcast, there's very little mention of Tony's son, Connor.
--:-- Josh Dean: I mean, it's in there a little bit, but he was sort of a fleeting mention or a guest character.
--:-- Josh Dean: But in the period of talking to Tony after that, it became clear how much of the story really was about the two of them.
--:-- Josh Dean: And this incredibly close unique relationship between a father and son who ended up addicted together and going into this sort of dark descent spiral whatever you want to call it from living together in an apartment to living in a car addicted to heroin
--:-- Josh Dean: And I never heard a father and son story like this.
--:-- Josh Dean: I found it really touching and tragic.
--:-- Josh Dean: And it was so clear to me that Connor had to be a big part of this.
--:-- Josh Dean: And again, I'm thankful to Connor for trusting me to tell his story too, right?
--:-- Josh Dean: He easily could have said no.
--:-- Josh Dean: I think I said on the show, it's not easy.
--:-- Josh Dean: Tony never refused to answer question, has never hidden from the darkest, worst parts of the story, including things that make him look bad.
--:-- Josh Dean: And people who listen to episode eight, like Connor admits to some very difficult things that he did and some very dark times for him.
--:-- Josh Dean: I was committing crimes.
--:-- Josh Dean: I had like 10,000 bucks.
--:-- Josh Dean: I had my own car.
--:-- Josh Dean: I was selling heroin.
--:-- Josh Dean: I had guns.
--:-- Josh Dean: I was selling guns.
--:-- Josh Dean: And that is really not easy to do.
--:-- Josh Dean: But I think because he did it and because we've now heard the two of them describe their experiences together, it added a depth to the story and a real human interest element that I think, you know, you can't help but root for these people.
--:-- Josh Dean: You can't help to want things to turn out well for both Tony and Connor.
--:-- Josh Dean: And I think we're happy to report that things are going really well right now.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: For you, what's remarkable to hear about over the course of hooked is, you know, you and your son really have someone in each other who understands what the other's going through, right?
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And one moment that really stood out to me is in one episode in particular, when you two are living together, we can hear Connor talking about how he doesn't want to leave you and go live with his mom, even though he could.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: He didn't want to leave you on your own.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: She told me I can come stay with her.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: I'm like, yeah, no, can't do that.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And A, I wouldn't be able to get my dove, and B, you know, it's my dad.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: We're kind of in this together, you know, so there was that.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And you also didn't want him to be on his own.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: At some point, one of us was going to overdose, you know, and I mean, that's kind of part of the reason we stuck together, because at any given time, he could have gone to live with his mom, but he didn't want to leave me alone, and I didn't want him to be alone.
--:-- Josh Dean: It struck me that, you know, here we're hearing father and son both talking about how they feel a sort of responsibility for the other one.
--:-- Josh Dean: I'm curious if that was something that the two of you expressed to each other at the time.
--:-- Josh Dean: Or was it only for the podcast?
--:-- Josh Dean: Was it only when you were speaking with Josh and his team that you started to think of it that way?
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Between my son and I, it's not something that really has to be discussed because we know it, right?
--:-- Tony Hathaway: We've been there.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: We lived through it together.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: We understand the fear of having someone that you love and watching somebody.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Sorry.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Take your time.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Just to watch somebody that you love go through that, you know, I mean, it was tough on Ann Marie, his mom, I know, but she didn't have the insight that we had, you know, the bond that we had and the insight into our addiction that Connor and I had.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: So to watch him go through that
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And I mean, it's impossible to not feel responsible for that, you know.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And so I guess, I mean, at that point when we knew we just wanted to be together, I mean, we were in this together and we were afraid to not be together because heroin is dangerous.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: You know, it's a lot of people use heroin.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: They use it by themselves.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And that's really the most dangerous part of it, because if you overdose and you're alone, you're done.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Right?
--:-- Tony Hathaway: There's no coming back from it.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: There's nobody there to save you.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And that's really what it all comes down to, that we knew that we were in trouble.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: I mean, we obviously knew that we were both addicts, and we just didn't want to ever leave each other because we were scared that something bad would happen.
--:-- Josh Dean: Have you both been listening to the podcast?
--:-- Josh Dean: Oh, absolutely.
--:-- Josh Dean: Yeah, we listen to it every week.
--:-- Josh Dean: I mean, it's kind of funny because most of our friends think that, like, we've already heard the whole thing, you know, so that's, you know, they'll ask.
--:-- Josh Dean: Which is not the case.
--:-- Josh Dean: Every week is something new for you.
--:-- Josh Dean: We hear it when it comes out, you know, we don't really have a chance to hear it ahead of time.
--:-- Josh Dean: And I think it's a great thing that they do it that way.
--:-- Josh Dean: I mean, I was a little concerned in the very beginning, you know, after going through this experience, I think it makes sense.
--:-- Josh Dean: And so, yeah, for us, we listen to it usually on Wednesday nights.
--:-- Josh Dean: And yeah, it's been great.
--:-- Josh Dean: What's it like for you two as father and son, as the subjects of the story?
--:-- Josh Dean: Do you debrief about it afterwards?
--:-- Josh Dean: What has it made you talk about?
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Yeah, I mean we definitely do.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: We reflect on different parts of the story.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: You know, there some stuff that there some funny parts.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: I mean, there's nothing funny about any of it, to be real, but you have to realize this isn't something that just happened last week, right?
--:-- Tony Hathaway: So we can look back at this and find some humor and some of it at different points.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And I think that's a good thing.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: But, you know, we'll listen to a part of the podcast that really touches on some of the, you know, the deep stuff.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: I mean, stuff that gets me emotional for sure.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: You know, I think it's important for us to have those conversations, you know, and just not ever forget where that took us, you know, what that road is that we went down.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: We don't ever want to visit that again.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: That's for sure.
--:-- Josh Dean: What's it been like for you?
--:-- Josh Dean: I mean, you've talked a little bit about just how responsible you have felt for delivering this story into people's consciousness.
--:-- Josh Dean: Every week that Tony listens to it, brand new, what's it been like on your end?
--:-- Josh Dean: Well, you know, it's sort of like how Tony in the beginning wasn't sure how he would feel about it.
--:-- Josh Dean: You know, you're always nervous because he's right.
--:-- Josh Dean: Like, I don't send the episodes to him ahead of time.
--:-- Josh Dean: No, we fact check exhaustively.
--:-- Josh Dean: So he probably has a pretty good idea of what's going to be in there because our fact checker has been contacting him repeatedly to make sure we're getting the story right.
--:-- Josh Dean: But, you know, it's still you don't really know it until you hear it.
--:-- Josh Dean: So it's a nerve wracking.
--:-- Josh Dean: Well, you know, hoping that we did the story justice.
--:-- Josh Dean: You know, there's certainly an alternate reality version where Tony decides to talk to me and trust me and then ends up hating the version of his story that goes out there.
--:-- Josh Dean: Not because I did something wrong, but because he's like, oh, wait, I don't sound that great.
--:-- Josh Dean: But I think we've both been surprised by how almost unanimous the reaction has been, very positive.
--:-- Josh Dean: I think Tony worried.
--:-- Josh Dean: He told me he worried that he thought people would think he was a bad person or they would judge his parenting or they would think that he failed his son or whatever.
--:-- Josh Dean: And I feel like overwhelmingly the comments and ratings have been people who feel like they're thankful to him for telling a story because this is the experience they went through or this is what their brother or their sister or their cousin went through.
--:-- Josh Dean: And I think I mentioned this to Tony.
--:-- Josh Dean: I remember one comment.
--:-- Josh Dean: It was like someone saying like, I want my children's mother to hear this story because she was not letting him see his kids because she thought he was a bad person for being addicted to heroin.
--:-- Josh Dean: So that was always the goal here.
--:-- Josh Dean: I mean, I know, Tony, you feel the same way, that you probably worry that people will judge you and you're pleased that they're getting the message, right?
--:-- Tony Hathaway: I had actually pretty much anticipated maybe half or maybe a little less than half of the feedback would have been negative.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: You know, people trashing me for being a shitty dad, for using drugs with my son, and I kind of expected that.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And, you know, like I've said before, I understand that people could have that point of view without really understanding addiction and how it can bring somebody down.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: But I've been amazed at the responses.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: It seems like 90 plus percent of the comments that we've gotten and we've gotten a ton on this podcast have been positive.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: You know, people, you know, have really been touched by the story or can relate to the story and are finding a lot of meaning in it.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And that's really what the goal was.
--:-- Shamita Basu: I just want to point out, look how far we've gotten in our conversation without having talked about robbing banks.
--:-- Shamita Basu: But it does occur to me that I do want to ask you something about robbing banks.
--:-- Shamita Basu: I guess for most of us, we never experience having someone else as an expert storyteller lay out our own story for us and point out different junctures where we could have made this decision or that decision.
--:-- Shamita Basu: But that's exactly what happened to you, Tony.
--:-- Shamita Basu: In Josh's storytelling.
--:-- Shamita Basu: When you listen back to the moment when bank robberies was first sort of put on the table, I don't know, how does it feel to listen back to that time?
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Well, I don't know.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: I mean, looking back on it, it's just insane, you know, to think like, what were you thinking?
--:-- Tony Hathaway: But at the same time, I remember where I was at in my life, you know?
--:-- Tony Hathaway: I I mean, everything was terrible and going bad, and I was so sick in my addiction.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And, I mean, honestly, I was at the end of my rope.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: I mean, I had nothing left.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Tony, how are you and Connor doing today?
--:-- Tony Hathaway: We're doing great.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Yeah.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: I mean, everything's not perfect, you know.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: We both spent some time incarcerated.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And, I mean, I don't really worry about him so much because he's still young, and he's out there working hard, and I know he's going to do great for himself.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: He's been clean off of heroin for three years now and is just making tremendous progress.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: I mean it a little more challenging for me because I getting up there in age I 52 now
--:-- Tony Hathaway: This is not the best time to be looking to start a new career
--:-- Tony Hathaway: So there are some challenges you know
--:-- Tony Hathaway: But we going to overcome these things
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And yeah, we're doing good.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: We're just, we're happy to be on a good path and living together again, catching up on a lot of years that we missed.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And we have, my grandson is living with us right now, which has just been amazing.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: So, yeah, it's going good.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And your grandson is named after you, right?
--:-- Tony Hathaway: He is, yeah.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Little Anthony.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: He's something else.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: He's seven.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And he calls you Papa T, right?
--:-- Tony Hathaway: He calls me Papa T.
--:-- Josh Dean: I heard that in the last episode, yeah.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: It sounds like, and Josh can probably weigh in on this, listening to the sound of the tape of you playing with your grandson is enormously gratifying.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: One, two.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Oh, you're using that one?
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Hang on a second.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Let me get mine ready.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Wait, I have to get mine ready, too.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: You can't take my pillow.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Hang on a minute.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: What is it like being in a house with a little toddler?
--:-- Tony Hathaway: It's amazing.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: You know, I got to tell you, prison just sucks.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: It's so terrible in so many ways.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: But when I look back on it, the one thing I missed the most was being around kids.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Because there's no kids around there, you know, and you don't, to spend six years away from being around kids, you know, they just make you so happy.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: My grandson is amazing.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And I also have a granddaughter.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: She's about 10 months now and she's amazing too.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: You know, it's just, it's a blessing to have these little, these little kids around.
--:-- Josh Dean: Congratulations on being a grandfather.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: I can hear how much you enjoy it in your voice.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Yeah, I love it.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: I love it.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: I get them up for school every day.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And Connor leaves for work pretty early.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: So I get him up.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: You have morning duty?
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Yeah, make him breakfast and walk him out to the bus.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And it's been amazing.
--:-- Josh Dean: Josh, I wonder for you, you know, in planning the series out, I mean, you said it yourself earlier that you couldn't help but be rooting for Tony and Connor and Tony's whole family.
--:-- Josh Dean: I guess there's no way of knowing how the final episode will land before it sort of all comes together and the way that it ends, it feels very hopeful.
--:-- Josh Dean: Were you prepared for an ending that maybe wasn't going to be so hopeful?
--:-- Josh Dean: How did you decide when the story could end?
--:-- Josh Dean: I obviously worried, especially once the pandemic set in and Tony and then Connor were like almost in a different kind of prison, right?
--:-- Josh Dean: Like Tony comes out of prison expecting to reenter society and then suddenly locked up in his apartment the way we were all locked up.
--:-- Josh Dean: And so I did worry.
--:-- Josh Dean: And, you know, as you hear on the show, they did struggle a little bit.
--:-- Josh Dean: And thankfully, it wasn't heroin.
--:-- Josh Dean: It was alcohol.
--:-- Josh Dean: And they were able to handle that.
--:-- Josh Dean: But it easily could have been, right?
--:-- Josh Dean: I mean, more people overdosed last year than any year in history.
--:-- Josh Dean: The pandemic made the opioid crisis worse.
--:-- Josh Dean: So, yeah, I mean, I'd be lying if I said I didn't worry about them.
--:-- Josh Dean: But they seem to be doing great.
--:-- Josh Dean: So I am hopeful, I think.
--:-- Josh Dean: They seem to be on the right path and they have the right people around them and have reasons to live and try and, I think I said at the end of the show, like, you know, write the next chapters, whatever they are.
--:-- Josh Dean: I'll be waiting to find out what happens myself.
--:-- Shamita Basu: Josh, Tony, before I let you both go, is there anything you'd like to say to each other after all these years of talking now that the series is out there?
--:-- Josh Dean: Well, we talk all the time, so I'm not sure there's anything left for us to say to each other.
--:-- Josh Dean: Nothing left unsaid.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Not a lot.
--:-- Josh Dean: But what I said earlier holds true.
--:-- Josh Dean: I'm super thankful to Tony and Connor and Anne-Marie and everyone in Tony's life.
--:-- Josh Dean: And I think it's hard for anyone who's not been in the journalist chair or in the subject's chair to understand, like, what kind of trust that requires, which made me feel like I had to take extra care with this one.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Yeah, I'm not ready to say goodbye.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: We have a lot of discussions ahead of us.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: But I just I'm grateful.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: I mean, I think my family's grateful for Josh, and he's done just such an amazing job of helping us share our story.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And, you know, we look back on it now and know that we picked the right guy for the job, and we're always going to be grateful for that.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Tony, thank you for being so giving of your story.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: And Josh, thank you for telling it.
--:-- Josh Dean: Thanks for having us on to talk about it.
--:-- Tony Hathaway: Thanks for having us.
--:-- Shamita Basu: You can find a link to the full podcast series Hooked on our show notes page or just search for it in Apple Podcasts.
