--:-- Ryan Hanley: And this is especially when I hear people bring up an Ed Milet, Joe Rogan kind of name. Already, my red flags go up. And I'm like, let's actually talk about this. Let's go. Yeah, make it look, make it look, make it look.
--:-- [Podcast intro music plays]
--:-- Ryan Hanley: The Ryan Hanley Show shares the original ideas, habits, and mindsets of world-class original thinkers you can use to produce extraordinary results in your life and business. This is The Way.
--:-- [Intro music fades]
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show. We have a tremendous conversation for you today with Olivia Atkin. Olivia is a former Lockheed employee, former data analyst, former adjunct professor, former public relations professional for the New York Giants for almost five years, and now the founder of Achieving Success.
--:-- If you are a leader or an entrepreneur and you struggle with defining your personal brand versus your corporate brand, where you should pay attention, where you should focus, how much effort should you put into your personal brand versus the brand you're trying to build, how do we marry those two together and how do we grow that brand to not just get notoriety, but to ultimately achieve real results, growth in our business, growth in our career. This is the episode for you.
--:-- You are going to love this one. Lock in, get ready. There are tons of both high-level theory as well as boots on the ground, tactical advice, things you can do. Leaders and entrepreneurs, you're going to love this episode.
--:-- Before we get there, I want to say thank you to everyone that has now made us an Apple top 100 podcast for all of Apple Podcasts in the United States. It's an incredible achievement in a relatively short period of time, and it comes from you, the listeners. I love you for listening to this show. I appreciate that you share this show with your friends, that you share it on social media, and that you continue listening. I love you for listening.
--:-- Let's get on to Olivia Atkin. Olivia, it's awesome to have you on the show. Thanks for making some time for us.
--:-- Olivia Atkin: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be on.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: So I want to start. You do a lot of podcast consulting, helping people with personal brands, high net worth people grow in the podcast space. In general, how does building your personal brand today, has it evolved over time in terms of career development? It seems to me today, building a personal brand along with your career has become almost an essential where maybe 10, 20, 30 years ago, that was not necessarily the case. Do you agree with that? And where do you fall on that particular topic?
--:-- Olivia Atkin: I 100% agree with you. I think in today's age, especially with the closeness people feel to social media, the accessibility social media gives you, if you don't feel a connection to someone you want to potentially work with, you're probably not going to hire them.
--:-- This is actually something an individual just hired me to work with them on was getting on podcasts and starting their own podcast because they have a very eclectic, powerful, professional brand and business. I mean, they are making millions and millions of dollars annually and are working with people like Tom Brady and different big stars like that. But no one knows who he is when he walks in a room if there isn't that network already. And that's because, and he was the first one to point it out, he has no social media presence. When you Google his name, his company might pop up, but there's nothing on LinkedIn. There's nothing on Instagram. It's not that easy to find him and learn about him to make a decision to work with him and his company.
--:-- So he's been in a business for 20 years, but when talking about connectivity to others and sharing that knowledge to help others, he's struggling because he's going, wait, I don't have that personal brand because I only thought about the professional brand and building my business. And I think what ends up happening as entrepreneurs or professionals, but a lot of times with entrepreneurs, it's all about the business all the time. There's sometimes a lack of thinking about your own personal development, meaning family time, regroup, mental health, and just that drive to meet goals, excel, set those new goals. And so when you take a step back, you're going, wait, I'm doing all these other things, why aren't people connecting with me? Because they don't feel that sense of really, I can't even say the word right now.
--:-- But, I get a lot of referrals because of the fact that you know how I'm going to talk, you know what I'm about, where my ethics stand, how I'm going to handle a situation and how I'm going to approach it based on conversations I have on platforms like yourselves with the podcast. And so I think it is really important to understand that you don't have to be a rock star on all these platforms, right? You don't have to be TikTok famous. You don't have to be Instagram famous. But know where people you want to potentially work with or connect with and build relationships with. Because in reality, networking and getting clients is all about building long-term relationships where those individuals sit. And then based on that, you'll be able to build out your personal brand while also making it seem effortless because you're being true to yourself.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Can you expand upon the difference between building a professional personal brand on social media? And I think what a lot of people picture in their head when they think about this topic, which is like kids dumping buckets of goo over their head to get more views on TikTok.
--:-- Olivia Atkin: Yes, of course. And that's the thing, you have those videos that can go so viral like that and those trends. But in reality, building that personal brand and professional brand is letting people in behind the wall, right? It's showing those little glimpses of what your life might be like, what you're doing to go, here's the space I'm in. These are the places I'm making an impact. Here's when things aren't as neat and clean and 100% and really having those conversations.
--:-- One example I give is I have two LinkedIn's, two Instagram's, two business, to Facebook's accounts. One is all my personal stuff where all my friends sit, my college friends, all of that. And I have a lot of people who still connect with me on my personal Instagram and personal LinkedIn. And you will see some different content than you will see on the business page. On all of the business pages, it's episodes that have been released, promoting other podcasts that I've been on or I think are really doing cool, interesting things or tips and tricks and things like that. You're not seeing me fishing in Alaska or at a family wedding in Italy, sharing some history from that culture that I've learned.
--:-- My personal brand is following the morals and ethics that I want in my business, but also showing this more personable side. It's a really cool thing that I was able to, I'll use an example. I always do community outreach, community service. So I might highlight an organization and a day of service that we've done. And so you get to see who I am as a person while letting you in to the aspects that make me who I am. And I think that's the thing we all have to remember. Social media has become this space where so many individuals show those A moments, those A-list moments, maybe the B, but not those C and D. And individuals are scared to show that sometimes you have to pivot. Sometimes the space you're in, you could excel in, but you choose to do something else. Talk about that. Talk about that journey and let that also bleed into your business brand as well because all those things you've learned will only help elevate your personal and professional brand.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: So do you recommend everyone have both a personal profile and a business profile on whatever platforms they choose to engage in?
--:-- Olivia Atkin: Yes. I think, and I use it in an example of this way. If you only have a personal brand or personal account, for example, and you should be highlighting the accomplishments the company's doing, maybe something innovative, a challenge you might have. But do you want all your friends that be popping up on their platforms? Or are they going to care? They might be happy for you, but after a while they're going to be like, why is Olivia only posting about her business? I'm not her client. I don't care, right? Whereas people will.
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--:-- Olivia Atkin: Organically find you by your name and the search engine optimization. But in reality, they're going to start searching the business name. So when you have that business page, it allows people to easily find what they're looking for, be able to navigate it and be able to find those key takeaways that you want the brand to represent. Because the other part is, especially as an entrepreneur, you can be the face of your company, but it should be a we. We're doing this. This is what the company's doing. It shouldn't all be I'm the face and I'm the, you know, Olivia's the only one. Look what Olivia's doing. Look what I'm doing. Because it is really a we effort.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: It feels to a lot of people I talk to like creating a personal brand, building a brand in general, like a full-time job. And the pushback I get when people ask me just about the work I do and I don't do consulting in the space that you're in, just I'll get questions. They'll be like, man, it just seems like so much work. How do you, if you are an entrepreneur, how do you manage the job you have to do? CEO, board member, chairman, wherever you fit in the organization at that current moment. How do you manage your time? How do you allocate where you focus for the actual work that needs to get done to grow the business that maybe is the achievement people want to know about versus telling that story on social media?
--:-- Olivia Atkin: And I think that's a great question. And one thing I always say to keep in mind is you're not going to be able to reach everyone on social media all the time. So what feels the most organic to you? Right. When I started my business and podcast, I talked to individuals who told me I had to be on every single platform. And they created an account for every single platform. TikTok, Twitter. And we had all these business accounts. And they're like, it's okay, we're going to repurpose the content. So you're going to maybe have that motivational quote or do a video and you're just going to post it on everything.
--:-- But I personally never understood Twitter, never understood TikTok. So I was very uncomfortable and hesitant recording certain content because I knew it was going up on those spaces and every platform is a little different. And so because I didn't feel comfortable doing it, I had a very hard time actually following through on it. And in reality, my network, my community, they might be on TikTok, they might be on Twitter, but that's not where they're trying to have in-depth conversations. That's not where they're trying to network.
--:-- So I really took a step back and evaluated where do I feel the most comfortable? Where do I look to engage in conversations with individuals I find the most rewarding? Number one is LinkedIn for me. I think it allows you to really communicate with people on a different level and seeing what people are doing. So for me, that was the most important platform to be on. Second is Instagram and Facebook.
--:-- But then, because I was actually comfortable with LinkedIn, it was very easy for me to take five minutes out of my day and maybe do a short post about what I'm thinking, a conversation I had with an individual and the outcomes we got, how my thought process might have changed, how I might have approached something. And to your point with carving out the time, one thing I do is when I have a chunk of available time, I will take that two hours and go, for example, those two hours and say, let me sit down and do this content so that every week when I want of posts, I have something in the bank. Now I'm not panicking to release something. I have something available and I'm able to turn it around and it will take me a minute and a half to do. And I think that's one thing a lot of individuals forget to do is plan. When you have that time or you know you're about to hit busy season, hold yourself accountable and say, okay, I'm going to sit down. I need X amount of videos or thoughts that I want to put out during that time. Let me just write it down now because I actually have the time.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: That to me, most people do not have a plan. They certainly do not have a system or a process for getting content out. I use, and this is, everyone's is different. I use Apple Notes, and I literally created folders in Apple Notes, and I have an inspiration folder, and underneath that is draft article folder. Underneath that is ready for LinkedIn folder. Underneath that is ready to be repurposed Instagram folder. And then the next one is, does this potentially become a newsletter?
--:-- And in that process, just giving the listeners at home an idea of what I do and everyone's will be different, but the idea here is that I have a piece of an inspiration. Something may hit me. I see an article or someone else's video or a podcast, whatever. An idea hits me and then that can be slightly restructured over time for each platform to fit the platform, but you're not creating from scratch over and over and over again. And like you post something on LinkedIn, the next week you could post that same thing on Instagram, tailored maybe slightly differently with a slightly different image or whatever, or maybe put a little video with it. And now you have another piece of content that, as you said, takes you less than five minutes to put together.
--:-- But I think the really important point, and I'd love for you to expand upon this, is choosing the right platforms for you. I did it. I did the same mistake, right? Was trying to create everywhere and post everywhere. And I'm going, TikTok, I'm similar. For me, it's LinkedIn and Instagram. I don't even really post on Facebook that much. I have an unfortunate addiction to reading X just because I love the insanity. It's like chaos porn, I guess you could say. But I don't post there incredibly often. How does someone audit where they should spend their time? And maybe in there, how do they avoid that mental trap of feeling like they need to be everywhere if they go this route?
--:-- Olivia Atkin: That's a great question. And before I dive into it, I want to highlight something you said. And that is the importance of the process and procedure. I have a lot of conversations when it comes to doing everyday business things with entrepreneurs or even employee level. And especially within the podcast space of really thinking of the strategy, the process, and the procedure. Because all of those are so important. And a lot of times we prioritize certain tasks and let the others fall off without having the correct process and procedure in place. And then you get hung up on issues and then it drives you to say, okay, I'm throwing my hands up in the air and I'm walking away from this. And so I love that you mentioned that because that is one of the biggest things that I stress and I work with individuals on, especially within the podcasting space, because that is such a topic that people forget about is the importance of strategies and process in implementation. It is really important to have all the pieces together in order to have that easy flow. And so thank you for bringing that up.
--:-- And to answer your question, one of the things that I do to get out the noise of feeling like you have to be on every platform is kind of the same approach that I take to speaking. You're only going to be able to reach a certain amount of people. You're only going to be able to connect with a certain amount of people. Even if you're in every single room and every single space, how many people are really going to benefit from that? What are the conversations you're having? So again, it goes back to something I'd mentioned earlier, where do you feel the most connected? What are the things that you find the easiest to navigate?
--:-- And to be honest, and I'd love your opinion on this, you should not be in every room. And I think that's a big mistake. And it's a mistake people make the same way that individuals make the mistake of looking at, I have to be super niche. I'm not going to be successful if I'm not niche. And this was something when I started out in my business and with my podcast, people said to me, you're too broad. You're not niche enough. Your business is going to fail. Same kind of conversation happens on social media. You're not on all the platforms. You're not going to actually be able to reach everyone. But do you want to be able to reach everyone? Or do you want to have quality over quantity?
--:-- And I think that's something that you have to really ask yourself and then ask yourself once you figure out where you feel most comfortable, what is the information as a knowledge expert, as someone who's in the field, you wish you had. That if you were put in the reverse position, you were the client, you were the person looking for the right person for XYZ reason, you were able to see that through online platforms. That's how you know not only what platforms to be on because when you put yourself in someone else's shoes, you're going to find out where you're going. Are you going to TikTok versus LinkedIn? If you're finding yourself on LinkedIn, that's probably a good space to be in. As well as, are you someone that if you're talking about real estate and the market is trying to learn more about the market and should share articles, should share these different aspects, or are you looking for those fast tips? And that can help build out your strategy.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: One of the things that I talk to people about when, again, when they just ask me questions is, and this is all learned through a lot of beats. What kind of content do you like creating? If you're not visual, if you're not willing to use the camera on your iPhone, Instagram is not going to work for you. It is a visual platform in its nature. So if you're unwilling to take pictures when you're behind the scenes at the speaking event or behind the scenes at your company or do a little 15 second reel while you're going for a walk on an idea, this is the type of visual and audio video content that works on that platform. And if you don't want to get in front of a camera or use the camera at all, then even considering Instagram is a mistake. It's not where you're going to be successful. You have to be visual.
--:-- If you're more of a writer, then you do need to gravitate towards something, maybe like Facebook or like, I mean, X, if you want to. X is really just economics and politics and everything else is, you can't get zero traction there. So if you're not in those two spaces, it's almost, it's just more like, like I said, like chaos porn. But you want to gravitate towards something towards LinkedIn.
--:-- And then, and this is the part that kind of leads into my next question. I find so many people, maybe they listen to that, right? And they're like, okay, I'm going to dedicate myself to LinkedIn. And then they write something and they get like three likes and they're like, this is stupid. It doesn't work. How do you push past what is inevitably going to be, unless you are walking in as some deck of billionaire who has some amazing story that just in and of itself attracts attention, right? You're going to have to build an audience. People need to be looking for your content. They need to see your name and go, oh, this is someone who I respect, appreciate because I read this thing before and saw this. How do you get past that early lack of traction, which 99.9% of people are going to experience?
--:-- Olivia Atkin: It's honestly, if you think you're not going to have a lack of traction, whether out the gate or periodically throughout the year, I would love to have a discussion with you. Because even now, I have that sometimes. And I try to prepare individuals with the fact that no matter what is happening in life, how amazing you are, not everything's going to land. And algorithms play a massive thing. And Instagram, LinkedIn, they're always changing things. A recent stat I saw was you have to post something 60 times, the same piece of content, 60 times in order for it to actually reach your whole network. How many of us are going to want to repeat the same content 60 times in a row before it actually reaches it?
--:-- So it's really understanding what is your purpose with putting that content out there. And there can be a lot of positive things that can happen for your business and for your personal brand, even if you don't have a business, that doing certain posts can do, right? So I see this in podcasting all the time because it's a very similar conversation. A lot of individuals think they could start a podcast, especially if they have a name that within an industry is very well known. And all of a sudden they're going to come out the gate and have a top podcast. And it's not like that. And some episodes, you can think, are going to knock it out of the park and everyone's going to want to listen to it. And those could be the episodes that get the least amount of listens. And it's not because of anything the guest did or anything that you as a host did. It just inevitably happens.
--:-- And so one thing I always say is look at what time of year it is. And I use summer and holiday time as key examples. Around Christmas time and Hanukkah and all the different holidays and the new year, how often are you going on social media yourself and reading more of that business-oriented, industry-oriented content? Or are you spending more time with your family? Same in August. That's when a lot of people take family time. So if you yourself are spending time in other areas, maybe not going on and doing different things on social media, why do you think everyone else wouldn't be in the same boat as you? So understand the flows of seasons and what that means for content and how people are going to approach it. And a lot of times, they are going to see it. They just not going to have the time or bandwidth to comment on it. So if you actually go into your data on that content, it might be way higher than those one or two comments or likes that you have. So understand that not everyone, no matter how awesome you're doing, is always going to comment or share it. It's what is the impact you want to make with that that I think is the most important.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: That's something that I've done. I have done some YouTube consulting over my time. And one of the things that I tell people is you just have to post all the videos. You're never going to be able to guess. You're not Mr. Beast. You don't have a 30-person team. You haven't been doing this since you were six years old. The vast majority of people in the world, you don't know which one is going to hit, right? And you could put the perfect title with the perfect thumbnail and amazing content and the algorithm just doesn't hit or the right number of people aren't on at the right time. And this person loves it, but just for some reason doesn't click the like button and it doesn't go anywhere. And then you could create another one that felt boring and the thumbnails, blah, and the title's just very banal. And then all of a sudden it hits and someone watches it and shares it and it bubbles. And now all of a sudden that one, and you're like, I don't understand.
--:-- And that confusion I think gets to people and what they miss is it's not any one individual post. It's the culmination of all the posts that you put out over time that ultimately lead to your success. And to try to guess or have expectations on one piece of content versus the other is only going to lead to let down and frustration. Because it's not a one-for-one system. It just doesn't work that way.
--:-- And I think that gets to a lot of people. The other thing, and maybe this is something you can expand upon for me, I think a lot of people don't hone this craft. They don't read copywriting books. They're not, if Instagram is important to your business, they're not looking at camera angles and motion, the things that draw people in and how to develop that three second hook or what's a good heading that draws people in and how do you keep people moving through your article. We just put a piece of content out and go, well, there's value in there. And it's like, yeah, but you're also competing against every other single person that posted today on that platform, every other platform, every TV show, every podcast, their kids, their partner, spouse, every other thing in their life. Your single post that you put out is competing against all of that.
--:-- So to think that you can just put out, and I see this so much with people that are starting, particularly on LinkedIn, right? They'll put out a post and it'll be a good image and it'll be an interesting topic. And then it'll be like seven block lines of text just lumped together in this huge paragraph. And just looking at it makes my brain hurt. I just will not read that. And I know most people won't read that. And these people get frustrated with me when I talk to them about it. Someone will say, hey, look at this, it's not going on. I'll be like, just look at your formatting. And they'll be, what do you mean? And I'm like, it's so hard to read. This could be the key to the Holy Grail. This could be the map to an Eldorado and no one's going to read it. It's seven block lines of text stuffed together. Make it digestible.
--:-- So how do people go about, or maybe just expand upon your thoughts and maybe some of the work that you do with your clients, both on the podcast side and on social media and branding around actually honing this craft? Or maybe comparing and contrasting the time and energy of honing the craft to just outsourcing this completely. Because I know that's become a big business. You interview me for an hour and then I pay you to chop that up and create the post for me. It's my original thoughts or whatever. So maybe compare and contrast the time and energy of honing the craft to just outsourcing this completely.
--:-- Olivia Atkin: And I think that's such a great question. And I love how passionate you just got about this because it is something I have conversations day in and day out. When I started my business, one of the things I offered off the bat was a podcast audit. And this was when podcast audits weren't that big of a thing. And I was just like, I can help you look at where the gaps potentially were. And in every single conversation, I did over 100 podcast audits in six months. And every single one was formatting, titles, and descriptions. And that is why that is now one of my services for my clients. A lot of times it's wrapped into their overall package. But that is such an important thing.
--:-- And one conversation I have with almost every podcaster I talk to is their description. And it falls on the line you just said of this massive text. So when I look at their podcast, I typically always start with looking at it from my computer. And inevitably, so many people have the idea or have been told by someone they need to put everything and anything in their description. And the descriptions formatting wise are so different from episode to episode. You can't easily find certain information, right? The links to a guest, your contact information as the host, because every single time it's somewhere else. That shouldn't be. It should be as easy as you can make it.
--:-- The next thing is if I have to scroll two times on my own laptop to get to the bottom, how many times on a phone am I going to have to scroll? The more you put in there, the more likely one of two or multiple things are really going to happen. Someone's going to get irritated and just click it and never actually take the next step to listen to your podcast or go to your website from social media. You've made it too challenging. The second thing is because someone can't, you made it too dry, they're going to go, okay, this didn't captivate me in the first four sentences. Why would I waste my time reading? Even if the actual content, that video on social media or your episode is really engaging, that's where people misstep. The third thing I say is if you've told me everything and I was able to read it in four minutes, why would I take the step farther and listen to your episode or go to your website to find more information?
--:-- Olivia Atkin: You just gave me the cliff notes of everything I need to know. And there's no stats. You're not going to get a global podcast rating, ranking. You're not going to get the data you need as a podcast host by someone just clicking and reading your title and description. And when there's so many spaces for individuals to actually get information and connect with people, how are you going to stop them from scrolling? How are you going to stop them and have them engage with you?
--:-- Olivia Atkin: So I look at it as a formatting issue, but also think of it in a more relatable way. I use an example of your stopping to scroll and your elevator pitch. In business, a lot of entrepreneurs know the importance of your elevator pitch. A lot of young professionals, anyone in the business space, understand the importance of having that quick elevator pitch to tell someone who you are, what you're doing, your purpose of talking, whatever it might be.
--:-- Olivia Atkin: So your title is that thing that's going to get someone to stop scrolling and go a step farther. If you're engaging, if you're easy to read, they're going to actually stop scrolling because their brain, as they're going down the page, has enough time to process that information. If you use words that some people can't pronounce or are hard to spell, people might have hard times searching those. So you're already kind of dwindling.
--:-- Olivia Atkin: Now that you've hooked them in, what is your elevator pitch? What is going to have them read that and go, "Okay, I need to spend my time listening to that because that's going to be interesting"? It should not be five or six paragraphs. It should not be time stamped with 20 different bullets. It should be: this is what we're going to talk about, this is why it's awesome, come on the journey with us, take it a step further.
--:-- Olivia Atkin: I've seen people transition out of that mentality and it really does work. The same people that use that thought process in social media are using it in their podcast space. So it's a mental idealism that once you pivot a little bit, you start to see that pivot in all areas of your life.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: One of the things that I've seen a lot of people do who take this on early is they look at their favorite podcaster or their favorite voice to follow on whatever platform they're on, and they try to mimic the way they do things. When Alex Hormozi first started blowing up two or three years ago, literally every talking head influencer, bro commentator out there basically started mimicking Alex Hormozi's style. Or it's kind of tough to mimic Joe Rogan, but a lot of people want to do that kind of meandering type of topic.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I think it's intuitive when we hear it, but not when we're dealing with it in our own head. People come to you for your unique style. I see things like using the big dictionary words. If you're going to use a big dictionary word, that has to be your brand. Your brand is you use these big crazy words that half of them people don't even understand, and a certain group of people come to appreciate you for that and love you for that, and that's how you build an audience. Or it's super bite-sized chunks, or it's long-form meandering.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: How do you massage people out of the natural mimicry phase that often happens when we start and move into what is it that makes you authentically you? I'll give an example. I get feedback on my shows for how much I talk in between questions. People will be like, "Oh, you're interviewing someone. Just ask them a question, move on." And I'm like, fuck that. It's my show too. I have this amazing person on the other end of the line that I've locked in for an hour of their time. I want to talk to them. I want them to know me. I want to know them.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: How I feel like I get more information and richer answers and more engagement is by saying, "Oh, I had this experience" or "Here's my thought on that topic" versus just question, question, question, question, question, which to me is a very boring style to listen to. This is who I am. I also, as probably obvious, don't have a problem making words come out of my face hole. So sometimes it's just like, I need to get them out. So I just talk. That's my style. That's what I do. If you don't like that, then this show is not the show for you. I'm perfectly okay with that. There's 8 billion people in the world. I don't need all of them to listen to feel like I'm making an impact.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: So what is your advice, your guidance? How do you coach people to find their style that will still fit into the necessary requirements of operating on the platform?
--:-- Olivia Atkin: The very first thing I like to do, especially when I hear people bring up an Ed Mylett or Joe Rogan kind of name, my red flags go up. I'm like, let's actually talk about this. So many people see video content and engage with that. They're seeing that 60-second, 90-second clip and go, "This guy's so interesting. I want to do this. I could do a podcast." But realize that whether you're a guest on a podcast or you're a host, where do you want people really to listen?
--:-- Olivia Atkin: For an Ed Mylett kind of show, most people are going to first find him on YouTube. They want to watch it. He's getting people in a studio, talking, seeing that dynamic. When we talk about podcasting, that's audio. That does not actually include YouTube. So when I also get people who go to me, "Well, that's a top 0.5% must-listen-to podcast globally, but they don't have an Instagram presence as much or they don't have all these followers on YouTube or as many listens. They must not really be that good." And I go, stop for a second. Where is their audience?
--:-- Olivia Atkin: I'll use myself as an example. I'm the only podcast that is in all seven continents. I'm even in Antarctica. I'm in 40 countries and 20 of them I'm on iTunes top 100 in my category. If you go to my YouTube page, I have not exceeded 400 views on any one of my 101-plus episodes that are out there. But I'm okay with that. That is not where my main audience sits.
--:-- Olivia Atkin: I record in video. I like to have people see the dynamics, but I also use it for social media content. If I'm already recording in video, why not release it? But I'm not hyper focusing on the quality of my video or having six different cameras. Because I know in reality, 99.8% of my listeners are coming from audio platforms. So step one is really understanding when you talk about podcasting, because it has come to be such a versatile word when in reality it's not. Is that meaning a live feed? Is that meaning you want to have more of a presence on YouTube? Or do you want that audio content with the option of video? Understand where your audience is going to go to really connect with you, to really engage.
--:-- Olivia Atkin: The second thing we dive into is we're going to talk. We're going to get to know each other. What I have found where people try to mimic other individuals that they listen to on platforms, part of that is due to scarcity. They're scared of what the potential outcome will be. They see a template that works, and in their mind they go, "If I do X, Y, and Z and follow their pattern, it's going to work." But just to your point, you will never see me use a big word. I get tongue-tied sometimes. Part of that is due to the medical condition I used to have. I used to have epilepsy. So my brain works differently. Sometimes I say things in my own recordings and I know it's the wrong word or it just does not come out due to how my brain works.
--:-- Olivia Atkin: If I tried to do that, the level of difficulty that I would have, let alone the unauthentic version of myself you would get just due to that pressure, understanding that is not how I talk in my normal life, you would feel that through a mic. People don't understand how much gets picked up through a microphone. They really need to evaluate that aspect. And just because something has worked for one person, you also don't know what they're doing behind the scenes. Is that host really only recording for 30 minutes? Or are they bringing in a team and recording for two hours and doing all these edits to the audio so you get this product?
--:-- Olivia Atkin: Are they recording what I call "live to show"? Meaning I record all my episodes as if you were in front of a group of people and you were live. No edits. If something happens along the way, where internet goes out or you really fumble on something, we can edit that out. But there's a level of authenticity that happens when you go, "We're hitting record, and whatever happens during that time, wherever the conversation goes, we're going to roll with it."
--:-- Olivia Atkin: Having a conversation with someone while they're preparing for what their show will actually look like, and then going, "This is what I'm hearing you say. I'm really enjoying when you're leaning into this aspect or that aspect." That is what helps figure out for you what people are going to engage in. What are your friends, family, people you network with? When you bring up certain things, when your body language goes into certain positions, what do they really engage with and take away? Because not only does that make you you, but that's what makes you unique and different. People want to see that more than anything else.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, it's funny how we are attracted to the people who own exactly who they are, the way they are, and then we try to mimic them and be like them and not ourselves. It's this super odd thing, especially early in someone's creation career or personal branding career. Take Gary Vaynerchuk, right? Early in his career, he's got this crazy haircut. He's this maniac. He's on the street. He's screaming. He's cursing. He's talking about all this different stuff. But that's exactly who he is. I've met him in person twice. That is literally him. He's also the nicest guy. That niceness that comes off is exactly how he is. Both experiences I've had with him are exactly like that. So incredibly caring and present.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: And then people will try to mimic that. It's like, yeah, but you're not him. This is a crazy immigrant from Jersey who owns exactly the way he is. Maybe he puts on a little for show in certain instances, but we all do that. That's basically who he is. Find that for you. What is that thing? It could be a more buttoned up thing. It could be a more, maybe you don't curse. Maybe you do curse. Maybe you refuse to use sports analogies. Maybe you love sports. Whatever that thing is. Maybe you have inside jokes in your podcast for people who listen all the time. Whatever that is that makes you interesting and different, that is the thing that people are going to grab onto, not the formulaic way in which you position your podcast. That to me is just the biggest mistake that people make.
--:-- Olivia Atkin: I want to add to that with a quick example. I think that goes and spills into all areas of your life. We talked earlier about professional and personal development. I think so many times we think we have to have this business persona and then when we are not doing business things we get to have a different persona. How many of us can flip a switch like that? If something pops up when you're on personal time, are you going to want to have to completely transform who you are? And vice versa, why are people working with you? They're working with you because you know what you're doing. They can relate to you. They connect with you.
--:-- Olivia Atkin: An example I recently had was actually personally. I was in Italy for a family wedding. The first night we get there, we go to this hotel for dinner. I've been so busy traveling for different work obligations that I was not part of any of the planning. I was just like, "I would love to not have to organize stuff, so everyone just tell me where I have to be and what works for everyone else. I will be there."
--:-- Olivia Atkin: The first night we get into Italy, we're going to go out to dinner just my immediate family. No one said necessarily where we were going. It had been a travel day. I did not feel like changing. So I was wearing my Lululemon athletic sweat kind of workout pants, but the flared one so it looked a little bit more professional, a t-shirt, and I put on my North Face because that was the easiest quick jacket I had and it was a little chillier that night.
--:-- Olivia Atkin: We roll up to this restaurant that's at a resort and I am seeing people get out in ball gowns. The rest of my family was more dressed up than me. Not gown level and a sports jacket kind of thing, but they could look like they were going to this place. Me, I look up and down and I feel underdressed. In that moment, I was just like, "Well, this is who I am. I decided not to get changed. I didn't know where we were going. I didn't ask any questions and I'm going to own it. I'm going to walk into that restaurant like I belong there. If other people don't like it, that's on them because this is how I'm dressed."
--:-- Olivia Atkin: My sister was like, "Olivia, seriously, you're not Steve Jobs. You're not Mark Zuckerberg." Because I started using them as an example. "Well, they walk into the room, they can wear whatever they want." She's like, "But you're not them. You're going to be embarrassed." And I was like, "No, because I have the confidence to go, okay, I'm in this space. This is what I'm wearing. I'm still the same person though."
--:-- Olivia Atkin: I think that's a pure example of saying you have to embrace who you are and where you are. When we walked into the restaurant, not everyone was dressed up. Some people were in jeans. It was very diverse. It so happened that those people getting out in gowns were going to a different part of the resort. There was that preconceived notion that you had to be a certain way. In reality, not everyone was dressed up. You got to just live in your own moment and appreciate the environment you were in and be able to connect with people.
--:-- Olivia Atkin: I think that's a pure example that can spill into other aspects of our lives when you think you have to show up and be a certain way, dress a certain way, and act a certain way. You're not being true and you become someone that is not you. One day you're going to turn around and you're not going to see the results you want. You're going to be frustrated. You're going to have all these different feelings. And it's all because you didn't just say, "This is who I am."
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I have two comments. One, no one knows you're not Mark Zuckerberg. They know you're not a Mark Zuckerberg type. No one knows that you could walk in and be like, "Look, I own this place." No one knows the difference.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Two, I love your point of the preconceived notion thing. I had a mentor say to me, "Would you rather go as far as you possibly can as who you are, or go farther as someone you're not and live someone else's life?" That's a choice I think we all have to make. Not that you can't go even farther as yourself. You most likely will over time. But sure, you can hack and gimmick and game the system and do all the little tricks and algorithm hacks. But if that's not who you are, then there's always going to be this friction that keeps you from moving forward.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Olivia, I wish we had more time. I could talk to you about this stuff all day. I appreciate the hell out of you. If people want to learn more about the work that you do with branding, with helping people launch and make successful podcasts, where can people learn more about you and your work?
--:-- Olivia Atkin: You can search Achieving Success LLC on LinkedIn. Search Olivia Atkin on LinkedIn. I answer all my messages. My website, you can go to achieving-success.com. Or you can email me at olivia.atkin at achieving-success.com. It can take me up to 72 hours to answer emails because I do get a lot of emails and I like to give the personal touch and actually answer all of them, but I will actually answer you.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I love it. I wish you nothing but the best. I appreciate your time so much. Thank you for being here.
--:-- Olivia Atkin: Thank you for having me. Let's go.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Make it look easy.
--:-- [Outro music begins]
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Thank you for listening to The Ryan Hanley Show. Be sure to subscribe and leave us a comment or review wherever you listen to podcasts.
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