RHS 032 - The Unexpected Secret to Sydney Roe's Success

Host: Hello everyone and welcome back to the show. Today we have one of the more interesting episodes that I think I've ever done for this show because it's with one of my favorite people in the whole world, someone who I worked with for a while at Agency Nation, someone who is incredibly creative, thoughtful, driven, ambitious, intelligent, empathetic, funny, and just someone I love chatting with. That is Sidney Rowe, the chief marketing officer of Be Atomic, who is helping spread the word about their tool, Neon.

This conversation goes so many different places because Sidney and I have so much history. There are very tactical things towards the end. So if you're looking for tactics and like a Sidney Rowe keynote on what's going on with video, marketing, and storytelling, that tends to be towards the end. The beginning is us really just wrapping and catching up. Even though she and I do talk quite often about general stuff, we don't often go deeper than whatever the topic of that particular conversation is. We ended up just having a chat that I personally really enjoyed that kind of changed the course of my day. It's hard to not have a smile afterwards.

It's a little higher level in different areas. I wanted Sydney to have a chance to really tell her story and share who she is. She tells so many other people's stories, and I thought it was time that she dived into her own story a little more and gave some context to it, now that she's in what I believe is her most confident and authoritative place in life. I feel like every day she's more confident and more authoritative, and that's a good thing for her, for the industry, and for all of us who follow her.

It's a deep conversation that goes a bunch of different directions. I promise you're going to enjoy it. I think you'll appreciate Sydney and who she is and what she brings to this industry more, because I know I did, and I didn't think that was possible. I'm going to get you as quickly as I can to Sydney Rowe.

But before we do, I got to pay the bills. I got to talk about my peeps, the people making this show possible, making The Inside possible, which is now free for everyone. You can go to the Facebook group, you can go watch the videos. That's completely free. And it is free because of the tremendous sponsors that we have of this show.

First and foremost, Tarmica. Tarmica is the tool that I'm using for commercial rating. I've got set up on the tool. I'm now live and licensed, and Rogue Risk is an operating entity. Tarmica is the tool that we're doing our commercial rating with. A little birdie told me they may have personal lines rating coming out soon. Single entry personal and commercial lines rating. It's really an exciting tool. They're building new connections into agency management systems and into carriers every single day. This is something you want to keep your eye on. If you're not ready to make the move yet, that's okay. But keep an eye on Tarmica. The people that I respect in this industry, many of them have their eyes on Tarmica, are already using the tool, or are involved in the project in some way. That shows me this is a tool you want to be part of.

Go to Tarmica.com. That's T-A-R-M-I-K-A dot com. Schedule a demo. Get to know this product. You want to know this product because I think it will become ubiquitous in our industry. It'll be one of those tools that you choose. If it works for you and you can get ahead with it, gain some ground, gain some efficiencies, help your people do their job more effectively, that's what it's all about. So visit Tarmica.com today.

Now we get on to Sydney Rowe.

[Transition]

Host: All right, dude. Well, I'm super glad that we had a chance to hook up. There's so much stuff going on. I listened to your podcast from NOLA yesterday. I got caught up. I missed a couple episodes and I caught that one on a dog walk, which was good. I have some questions around that. In general, I guess where I'd like to start is, how long have you been with Neon now?

Guest: In spirit or in reality?

Host: Well, because there may be people listening for various reasons, let's just say in reality.

Guest: August of 2018. August 1st, officially of 2018.

Host: So it's been four months then. Four-ish.

Guest: Yeah. We're still in the honeymoon phase.

Host: Now, if someone asks you, would you say I work for Neon or I work for Be Atomic?

Guest: I get the question all the time. It's so funny. Past experiences color future experiences. I'm sure you remember the incessant conversations of "what's the difference between the big guy and Trusted Choice and Trust and Agency?" and "I don't understand how that all works together." It takes about three months of conversations to get a full color picture. You start out black and white and eventually you get to the whole rainbow. I still have those conversations with Neon and Atomic. Essentially, Be Atomic is the company. It's the core mission. So I work for Be Atomic, and then Neon is the product.

Host: That's right. I think sometimes I even get confused, and I'm sure many people do, about which one was the parent of the other. There will potentially be many products or services that fall under the Be Atomic brand, but Neon is its own piece of that puzzle.

Guest: Yeah. You know Seth well enough to know that the dude does not stop with ideas. He just keeps going. We'll get on the phone and he'll be like, "Sid, don't worry. I won't run out of ideas." And I'm like, "I know, that's what makes me nervous." So Neon is one of the ideas, but he's got other things. For example, we've met with a company who does consulting but also has some experience with data migration and cleansing. As a startup, coming from one system into another is hell on earth. So how can we make that process, which naturally is already hell, more cost efficient, more enjoyable, more time sensitive? Right now, the way we're doing it is not only hell because it's annoying to even go through that process. I can't wait for the day when we stop talking about data migration because you just press a button and it all gets sucked into some vortex. But for right now, it's a terrible, painful process. So how can we make it better? That's just one of the ideas we're thinking about. How can we run towards some of these things that are like the pipe and duct work of the insurance world and just make them a little better, a little easier?

Host: Will all the companies be named after elements on the periodic table?

Guest: Good chance. Good chance. Seems to be a trend.

Host: I tried to walk away from the octopus. You know the octopus?

Guest: No, I don't know the octopus.

Host: No, bro. I'm going to introduce you to the octopus. Capital T, capital O. It was one of the first things I saw when I was talking to Seth about Be Atomic and Neon. I couldn't for the life of me figure out what the deal with the octopus was. I first got in and I was like, "Seth, we got to have a real conversation about this octopus. I don't think people get it. I don't know if it's good for the company." He was like—I could tell it was really important to him, Sid. But at the same time, he's a humble dude, so he's going to be like, "All right, well, you're the marketer, so you choose." But Seth also has this way of subtly, subconsciously weaving things back into conversations, getting you in the right conversations with people who like the octopus. And now the octopus is on the website. So there's a good chance that his mission, his vision of brand will always stick, and it'll be scientific elements.

Guest: I actually think it's cool. It's very catchy. When I pick names of things, I do the syllable game. Neon, zinc, rogue. My wife's former agency, the name of the Murray Group used to be the Gilderland Agency. That's way too many syllables. You have to keep it as close to one as you possibly can to be a good name. Neon and Zinc both fit that. Indium is two, but that's still decent.

I think too, Seth has a story behind everything he creates. The idea of Neon is that neon gas particles are floating within our world. In the same way, data is being created every single day by an agency. Phone calls are happening, emails are being sent. They exist, but they're not being structured and collected in a way that's intentional to power an agency in an efficient, scalable, sustainable way. In the same way that a person who makes neon lights goes and collects those particles and uses that mix of intentional collection to create gas—neon is one of the brightest lights—how can we do that for an agency? How can we bring this data together in that way to fuel that agency? There's always something under the surface.

The octopus, just because we're on it, is one brain. The collective, but yet many tentacles. Each tentacle is sort of independently operating, but with the collective power of that brain. And the idea of the octopus coming from the depths. The idea that the industry sort of looks at the agent and says, "They can't do it. They're not tech savvy enough. They're not this enough. They don't work hard enough. They just go golfing." There's this picture painted of them sort of looking at the depths. And then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, you don't expect it, they come up and just—yeah. And there goes your shit.

Host: It also looks very similar to the Hydra logo from the evil empire that fights against Captain America and the Marvel empire in the Marvel series.

Guest: I'm not up on my Captain America.

Host: You may want to look. Just search HYDRA all in caps. And if you want to get real specific, search Red Skull. You can read about the origins of the HYDRA organization, which is essentially the underpinning evil empire secret society that's fighting the Avengers most of the time in the Marvel Universe. Just throw that out there. I like it. But this guy looks like a guy from my nightmares. I'm pretty sure whoever came up with Red Skull was having a nightmare when he envisioned it, trying to produce nightmares.

I think that description is awesome. It depicts why we are in a Seth Zaremba world and we're all just living in it. But I want this conversation to not be about him or what you're doing. I'm interested in you. I want the audience to get to know Sydney. I want to get to know you a little better. I feel like you tangentially tell your story. You're really good at bringing people into who you are without actually taking them super deep. Sometimes you go deep, but a lot of times you're so good at building a brand. I think you get so into whatever your project is that I want to talk a little bit about your story and how you became who you are, how your story has evolved, and how your career has evolved. I think it's incredibly interesting.

For someone as young as you are, a female, being gay, you are so well respected throughout the industry. It's incredibly rare for you to have cracked into the conversations that you've gotten into and to reach those levels. I think there's something really important there that we should talk about. I feel like there have to be other people who maybe do not do certain things or don't take certain steps in their career because they feel like they can't or won't be accepted. And you have consistently shown that that's not possible. As far into that as you want to go, I'd love to talk about that because I think it speaks to who you are as a person, why your work is so creative and so consistent, and how you're able to evoke emotion.

I was listening to you on the podcast that you put out about being in NOLA. I've been to that event a couple of times. When I first met you, you would never have been willing to get up on that stage, let alone sit up there and talk with the confidence and the authority with which you did. Having known you for as long as I have, I was very proud of you that you were able to do that. I thought it was amazing. I've always believed that you have that in you, but hearing the way you were coming across and talking about different stuff and pulling it all together, it was also incredibly persuasive and well done. That made me proud too, because I know I taught you all that shit. But really, I did.

I just want to dig into that a little bit because I think not enough people know how you got here. Maybe just walk us through from wherever you want to start, wherever you feel it's a good place to start, so we can kind of show people how you became what they see today.

Guest: It's funny. I had this thought the other day. I'm five years out from talking to my family, which is kind of a crazy thing to say. But I had this thought about a year ago when I started realizing that Jess's oldest son, who's 15 now—he was 14 at the time—is going to be out of the house forever in four years. That's it. He's gone. I had this moment where I think if I had to color in those five years, the first three were me just being pissed. Pissed and angry and bitter about what had happened. The fourth year was sort of an apathetic year where I just didn't care. I didn't think about stuff because I felt like my career was going well. I had a great partnership. I was trying to build a family. And then this last year is like a new phase for me where I'm looking back and I'm like, my gosh, five years is a long time. I feel like I've missed so much time with my family. It gave me a different perspective to think about how I'm sharing my story and why I'm sharing my story and how that affects me, the people around me, and my family.

I'll be honest, at first I shared it because I was angry and I wanted people to know what had happened. And then I just kind of didn't share it. Then I had this moment where I thought, I should not be sharing my story for the wrong reasons. That is a disservice to the world and to humanity if I'm sharing my story for the wrong reasons. So anytime I share it, I want to be really intentional with why, what I say, and how I say it. But I do think it's a part of me in the same way. It's a part of my experience, and I can't not talk about it. It's hard for me to tell you who I am without talking about that part of me because it shaped who I am.

Looking at it through that lens, when you have the people who are closest to you, the people that you believe are going to be there, your support system, your safety net, the ones you can talk to, the ones who know you better than anybody else in the entire world, turn their backs on you and just say, "You know what, I'm done"—that's a side of humanity that is very dark. It's a very, very dark side of humanity. When you see what people are capable of, I think it brings more color to the stories that I hear from independent agents about things they're feeling in their business and the way the world is sort of treating them.

Host: Can I ask a follow-up question on that? I think that's a really interesting comment. The reason I think that is because you took a very dark moment, a moment you couldn't have been prepared for, filled with heartache, surprise, frustration, and anger. Your world probably went black and white or gray. And what you just said is that allows you to see colors brighter. I don't think that is the case for everyone. I think most people, when really shitty stuff happens, can't get out of the gray. Do you agree with that? Or what is it about you that when something bad happens—this could be something really awful like what happened to you, or something less awful, because we all have brief moments during the day where it feels like nothing's going right and we get that darkness or grayness in front of us—you see bright colors despite that? What do you think it is about you that allows you to do that where others just kind of wallow in it? Why do you think you rise up out of it?

Guest: That's a good question. One that I haven't necessarily thought about. Part of it is that my childhood was one of the best childhoods. I grew up in a cul-de-sac. I had the best friends. I had parents who loved me and would give me anything in the world. My mom would drive 45 minutes to take me to sporting events three times a week. I've experienced a really loving, incredible environment. I know what that feels like. I think there's a difference between having a really terrible past and not knowing what good looks like, versus knowing what good looks like and transitioning into, "Oh my gosh, this is the reverse of good." When you go through that transition of great to terrible, you're like, "I just didn't want it to happen to me, and I don't want it to happen to anyone else." I would rather we all figure out how to keep ourselves in that environment where we're helping, collaborating, and loving each other, versus turning the tables on each other.

I really believe that people have the best in them. I remember my dad standing at the entrance of Disney World. I'll never forget it. He just stood there at the entrance, which any kid is like, "Why are we standing at the entrance? We got to go! There's Space Mountain, there's Mickey, there's the cafe where we're going to have tons of ice cream. And you're just standing at the freaking entrance. It's the most boring part of the entire park." But that's the part of the park where everybody floods in. That's the most concentrated part of the park with humanity. Everybody is right there at the entrance in the line coming through, coming out the exit, and then it kind of disperses throughout the rest of the park. He just stood there and looked around and said, "Man, it's so crazy that every single one of these people has a different story." I'll never forget that moment because it's true. Every time I meet somebody, I just want to know who they are, their story, and what they've been through. I believe that there's something incredible inside of them. So I think that's part of it too. Does that help answer?

Host: It does. If I had to take what you just said and a little bit of knowing you, I think at times, at least when I first knew you, you had a very—and I don't mean this to be negative—but I think you had a very naive positivity and abundance mindset. What you've grown into in the last five years is you haven't lost that abundance mindset. You've just matured into a new form of it. It's not because you're experiencing things for the first time. It's because you actually believe that people are good at heart and have an abundance mindset that allows you to see those colors. And by colors, I mean not just actual colors, but metaphorically.

Guest: You asked before how to start with your story and how you got to the place you're at today. I would say that I think there's a depth. I've met people who have not been through a lot and live a very comfortable life, which is a great thing. I would hope everybody could live a very comfortable life. And I've met people who have not lived a very comfortable life. There's a richness to their journey that I can't really express when I start to hear their story and talk to them. The way they phrase their experiences and tell their story and talk about life is very different. I think it should be looked at as a tool in someone's tool belt.

I remember—and I don't know if you remember this—we were sitting outside. We had just launched Rockets. We were trying to film a video for the announcement of Agency Nation. I think it was Pathfinder at the time. We were sitting at this random bar eating food. It was me, Nyssa, you, and Chip. We were having a very honest conversation about speaking and presenting. I said, "Well, you guys don't understand because it's harder being a woman when you present." And you turned the tables on me and said, "Sid, I get it. I hear you. But at the same time, I'm jealous of you because I walk in and I'm just like every other person in the room. I have to work really hard to be the white dude that everybody should listen to because there's like 20 other white dudes behind me. Maybe you have that harder road at the beginning, but people remember you and recognize you because of how you look and what you say." When you said that, I was like, "Oh my gosh, it's a tool in my tool belt." Maybe it is a little tougher and I got to deal with X, Y, Z, but that gave me the confidence. Seeing it like that, being able to say, "I'm the person that is the unicorn and I get to own that. That's my thing." All of a sudden it became another weapon or tool.

To the people who might not have the confidence, or as somebody who might look different or sound different or have different opinions—it's not just about being gay. It's about being the person in your agency who is thinking about doing automation and the agency owner's like, "I don't understand, just pick up the phone." Own that. That difference is what makes people remember you. And guess what? The people who get remembered make history. Have confidence in it, I guess is what I'd say. Because of the way you think, the way you look, the way you sound, the way you talk, the way you dress, you're pushing those boundaries. You've got a depth to your journey because you're pushing those boundaries that is going to inform every single action you take as you move forward in a way that somebody who lives a comfortable life and looks the same and sounds the same and dresses the same and does the same things because that's the way it's always been done—they don't have that. So that's what I would say. Have confidence in it.

Host: I think that's a tremendous way to look at it. I feel the same in many ways. I think this concept is often applied to big, huge things, but I think you can take it all the way down to the smallest interactions in your life and how you engage with your spouse, your partner, your kids, your friends, or just the people at the local convenience store. You could just throw your money down or put your card in and walk away and take your coffee and humdrum on with your life. Look, not every day you want to be bouncy and friendly and fun with a big, huge smile. I get it. Everyone is constantly dealing with different stuff. But I think just a little extra effort, compounded over time, goes so far.

I listen to Cass's podcast all the time. He asked this question: "Do you think it's skill or luck that leads to success?" If he ever interviews me, I will answer it this same way. I hear it and I almost want to say, "I think that's a silly question." I know what he's trying to elicit—a thought process and conversation—and for that, I think it's a great question. But in reality, I think neither one of those things is the defining factor. It's just effort. Now, effort in the wrong direction will get you opposite results from what you expect, but that doesn't mean you're not going to get results. I think that's something people miss too.

This is something you and I talked about a ton when we were working together: expectations. What do we expect? Both of us would go into something with expectations and get frustrated. We talked a lot about properly setting expectations or simply not having expectations and just applying effort. Instead of wasting brainpower on what our traffic goal is going to be—I think I even said this during a meeting once—I'm like, "I don't give a shit what our traffic goal is. I don't care. Make it 10 bazillion. Come up with a number, I don't care. What we're going to do is effort as hard as we can to deliver quality as often as we can. What happens is going to happen. If we miss by 100 visitors, are we going to be upset because of some stupid goal? What if we miss by a thousand? I still don't care. What I care about is, did you mail it in or did you not? Did you keep pushing forward?"

I think so much of this stuff we talk about is just effort. Are you willing to put that in? I think you've proven the case over and over again that by simply applying effort to your work, you can break down any boundary. You can reach any goal. I mean, what are you? 33? 32?

Host: 29. Fuck you. But 30 in 10 days. I'm actually sad I'm going to be 30.

Guest: For some reason, I thought you were past 30. But you're deceptively young. I told you this—you're deceptively young. Nobody would think that. So don't even say 40.

Host: I'm not 40 yet!

Guest: You were just about to say 40.

Host: What the hell was I saying? I don't even know now. Effort. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't even know what I was saying.

Guest: No, well, it's funny. On our website, we have this form you can fill out to contact us. We've gotten some really random emails, and one of them was from a VC. I've gotten a couple before, but I was just curious. I've never talked to a VC before. I wanted to see what that phone call would be like. So I told Seth and Clint this morning, before this call, "I'm going to talk to a VC. I just want to see what that phone call is like." They started laughing. They were like, "All right, have fun." So I get on the phone call and this guy's like, "Yeah, we have this funding, we've been around for like four or five years, we're super cool, we have all these carriers and big brokers, blah, blah, blah." I was like, "Okay, cool. So what's your goal? What's your mission?" He was like, "Well, return. We want ROI." He was very upfront about it. I was like, "Okay, so this is going to be the most frustrating call you've ever had, because we have the coolest piece of technology, but we are not in it for ROI." Then I went on this diatribe about our mission and what we're trying to do. At the end, I could tell he was kind of overloaded. We're not a shiny object. We're trying to rebuild the piping. Anyway, I guess it's just—if your mission is to get 7 million people to come to the website, why? What does that say? Who cares about the 7 million? Oh, your board cares. Oh, your investors care. Well, what about the people you're supposed to be serving? What do they care about?

Host: Right. So it's effort towards not just effort, but effort towards the true mission, the why of what you're doing every day. Otherwise, what are you doing when you get up?

Guest: Yeah. I'm a hundred percent with you on this.

Host: What I was trying to say is you're 33 and you're a CMO, but really you're 29 in a CMO. That's where I was trying to get. And then the fact that you are only 29 and almost called me 40. Not that there's anything wrong with being 40 or 30, but I still have a three at the beginning. People are starting to actually listen to you at this point in your life. I still have to prove that people should listen to me. No one is listening to me. People just pretend like they do. They're just like, "What's he gonna say now?"

Guest: Here's what I would say. I agree with the "why" thing. If the last three years of my career have taught me anything, it's that one—I would like to believe that people believe, at least for the most part, that my actions, whether right or wrong, are always well-intentioned and for the good of the majority of the group, not personally. I think it would be hard for someone to point to an action you took that was overtly self-oriented. I would hope people believe that about me. What I'm trying to say is, if you follow your why, your moral construct, your belief system, and you stick to that, the reason people break it is they're afraid to make a mistake. "If I do this and this happens, no one's going to want to do this with me anymore." I can tell you from firsthand experience, that's not actually true. I've had quite a few hiccups in the last few years—not from nefarious things, just things that didn't work, opportunities that didn't work out the way I wanted. And I'm okay. I'm still here. Most people still... I think for you, the same is true. Not that you've gone through half the stuff I've intentionally put myself through. But I think what you're saying is wholly accurate: effort, staying on course, and just allowing that course to take you where you're supposed to go instead of trying to pick and choose what you think other people want you to do. I would be in a much different place in my life if I did what other people thought was the best decision for me. And I can tell you today, despite the fact that I haven't written an insurance policy yet and I just started giving away my paid membership for free this morning, I feel pretty good as a human being. So I don't know what that proves.

Host: I definitely make selfish decisions sometimes. I'm not perfect. You do not want to be on the other end of Sydney's wrath. Let me tell you that.

Guest: I've been there more than you have.

Host: I mean, I am not perfect. As an example, it's very interesting being on a team with just three people. There's so much moving. Right now, the biggest focus has to be the product. Clint is leading product development. There have been moments where we sit on calls and all we talk about is the product, and I'm like, "Why aren't we talking about the marketing? Why aren't we talking about the website? You guys don't want to know how the octopus drawing is going?" What happens is I have this cycle I go through. I start to pivot about caring about what this other person is doing with this project that seems more important. Then I stop thinking about the things I really care about—making really awesome videos, telling the message the way I think it should be told, listening to how the product development is going so I can bring it into my work, and just doing a really good job at the thing I'm good at. Then because I'm ignoring this piece, even more attention gets drawn back to the product because I'm not doing anything over here. So there's this cycle. It'll go for a couple days where I'm like, "What is wrong?" Then I'm like, "It's Clint's fault, it's Seth's fault." And then eventually I wake up and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, Sid, stop thinking like this." We only have so much space in our brain, so many things we can do every day. If I'm too concentrated on what this other person is doing, I'm not doing amazing things and I have nothing to bring to the table. If I just concentrate on what I'm really, really good at and keep doing that thing, I know it matters. Then you start to question yourself, you don't trust yourself, doubt creeps in. It's hard in a startup culture because everybody else is questioning you at the same time. So anyway, I am not perfect and I do make really selfish decisions. Being a part of this team has taught me how selfishly I do think through things sometimes and how much I appreciate having people like you, Seth, and Clint who can say, "Sid, think about it this way, come at it from this perspective." So anyway, I think 110%.

Host: No, I know. I think it's a really applicable story. If you're sitting there listening to this, maybe some of what we're talking about sounds fluffy or high level. We haven't gone very tactical. We'll take the last few minutes. I do have some very tactical questions for Sid I want to talk through. But I think conversations like this are important because not a ton of people are willing to go this deep on the record. I think what you just described is a perfect scenario for a producer who's listening. It's easy as a producer to lose sight that you're part of a bigger team and start to veer off into, "I just need to get my money, they're not giving me my commission split, they're getting five points more commission, they have access to this tool I don't have." I have that same exact cycle you talked about. I have that cycle with my wife. I'll literally put my hands up and be like, "She's on your team. Okay, I'm back." There are moments where I'm like, "Wait a minute, if there's anyone who's on my team, it's this human being I've been with for 14 years." The fact that I still have to say that... What I've tried to do is just make that loop tighter. Instead of a couple of days, it's a couple hours. And then I've tried to work on it a lot.

Guest: This is why you're 40.

Host: And I'm... it's like a couple minutes, right? This is why you're... dude, this is why you're 40 and I'm 30. I'm just kidding. I think that loop gets tighter. So say you're a producer listening to this, and you're frustrated with your ownership. We see this all the time—Gen X, Millennials fighting against Baby Boomers. "They don't understand us. They won't listen to us. They won't give us leash to go do what we want." Then we start to peel away and say, "I'm going to go start my own thing." What's important to consider in that cycle is take a second, take a deep breath, woosah, whatever you've got to do, and remember who's actually on your team. Is this person actually fighting against you, or are they doing what they think is right for the team as a whole? Do you just need to do a better job of describing why you think this other thing is the way to go? Or is there a way to work it in? What's the alternate solution? If you can do that woosah, come all the way back and say, "This person is not helping the broader team," then you need to take action. Otherwise, don't let that shit even enter your mindset because it's just toxicity you don't need. Just try to make that loop shorter and shorter. I'm obviously not perfect at it, but having experienced all the same thoughts many times, the only thing I can say is I don't know that you can ever stop it from happening, but you can make the loops tighter. That makes you more productive and gives you more awareness of where you should be. That's probably the best I can say.

[Pause]

Host: Okay, I want to throw some tactical questions at you because you are the maven of video, marketing, and storytelling in the industry today.

Guest: Good to know.

Host: My first question is, how much thought do you put into a piece of content? I want to phrase this right. The impact it's going to have on people versus telling the story you think needs to be told. Are you thinking, "I want to impact people in this way," and you craft a story for that? Or do you try to tell the story that needs to be told and let the impact happen as it will? Or some combination?

Guest: I'd say tell the story as it needs to be told and let the impact happen. In any business's journey, there are going to be things you do that are more impactful and some that are less impactful. It's the accumulation of those impactful things, wherever they exist on that scale, that actually makes the biggest punch. That's the part people miss. They think, "I need one piece of content that gets 500 views or goes viral, and that's going to be my rocket to the moon." I had somebody I was talking to the other day who said, "Yeah, I was watching some of your videos. That one has only like 50 views. What happened there?" I definitely have those weeks where I'm like, "Man, why did my video only get 50 views?" Because you still title your videos ridiculous things. "The Shocking Truth." Players play. That's what we do.

Host: Fair enough.

Guest: So I have those moments where I'm like, "Ah, why didn't that get more views?" But I know the one that's going out today is going to be impactful because I'm listening to people. I'm on the phone with people, listening to what questions they're asking me about Neon and what matters to them. I'm in the room listening to the carriers, listening to Seth, listening to Clint. I'm a decently empathetic person, so I know what's starting to hit those deeper notes and bring out those vivid colors. To pull your analogy full circle, I would just say document, document, document. Somebody asked me, "Do you have a roadmap of all the videos you're going to make in 2020?" No. I have like six videos to make. After that, I have no clue what I'm going to talk about. But I know there's going to be things to talk about because more things are going to happen in the next six weeks that will fill in the next six weeks. I'm confident enough that I know. If I don't have something to talk about, I'll figure it out. I've been in those positions enough to know what to look for and how to tell the story. And I'm okay with a video getting two views. I'm okay with that.

Host: So there are a couple of things there. You find yourself in a moment where maybe you have another idea written down, but it's just not speaking to you. You did some work and came up with a list of 10 videos you think would be good. You get to video seven and you're just like, "I would rather take a bullet to the brain than create this next video today." But you want to be active because activity does have relevance. So how do you brainstorm an idea? If you're trying to figure something out, where would you go? What's your way of digging yourself out of the block?

Guest: That's probably one of the hardest things as a creator. It's much more fun when the ideas are just spit-firing at you and you get to develop them. Developing an idea and creating an idea are two very different things at different difficulty levels. Creating the idea is much harder because you're literally making something out of nothing. When somebody says, "I have to write an email or a blog post," if they're working off a blank piece of paper, it's always easier to start with something than nothing. I kind of have to detach myself because typically creators get into tunnel vision where they're just focused on the next thing. You're almost in the forest and you have to step back. Things I'll do: I'll go to our YouTube channel and look at what we've said on the record. There's what you think you've said about the company, what you think about the product or your mission, and then what's actually on record. Sometimes those things get muddied because you think, "I said that one thing in that one video, so that counts as it being said." But it might have gotten lost in the bigger vision of that particular video. So I'll go back and look at the titles and think about what I've said, what really stood out, and where the gaps are between what I know about the product, the mission, things that have happened, and what's actually on record in an impactful way. That starts to fill in. I'll see gaps. "I could have said that better. Okay, I'll make another video." Maybe I've already made a video on behavioral data. Maybe I need to make another one because I realized in that video I didn't talk about how I wrapped it back around to having operational insight equals more efficiency and scale because you actually know what's going on in your business. So can I take that concept, now that I've built the foundation, and take it to the next level?

Host: That's a really good concept because your ideas morph. You can do one thing today and six months later, maybe that idea hasn't changed, but you approach it a different way or you have a different way of talking about it. That takes me to my next question. You're attacking some pretty heady topics—behavioral data. You stick the word "behavioral" in a thing and it becomes complex. You're trying to break these concepts down, apply them to another heady concept of data, and then lay those two concepts on top of insurance technology. Those three concepts stacked on top of each other are way more complicated than any insurance policy form. That's often the feedback I get: "Ryan, these are really difficult concepts to explain. Why would I talk about these things?" As someone who is in the process of breaking down very heady concepts, what advice can you give to agents and anyone trying to create video or talk about insurance topics? How do you take these heady concepts and break them down into things people understand?

Guest: People don't buy on logic; they buy on emotion. So what's the friction point or pain that exists in someone's life that you're trying to solve for them? That's always where I start with my videos. Behavioral data is cool. We could talk about objects and fields and data structure and show you a screenshot of Neon, which is exciting in theory, but once you actually see it, it's kind of like, "Oh, those are objects and fields and that's where you click the button." When I was trying to explain that, I was like, "What's the problem we're trying to solve? What does an agency owner feel?" I kept listening and listening and I was like, "Oh my gosh, they have no idea what any team member or any customer is doing at any given moment. They have no operational oversight. They walk through the hallway and they just trust that Joe or Jane, because they're smacking the keyboard, is actually doing the right thing that's going to affect the business in the most impactful way. But they don't know. They have no clue." That's a pain point. Sometimes you almost have to create the pain point they don't know exists because they're still making money. Have you seen *Wolf of Wall Street*?

Host: Yeah.

Guest: The part where he's like, "Sell me this pen." The guy goes, "I need your autograph," or something. Or, "Do you want my autograph?" The idea of creating the need. You're creating the need.

Host: Okay. Terrible. Fair.

Guest: Fair.

Host: There's no coming back from that one. That's going to be the Instagram promo—you trying to describe that scene on loop.

Guest: It's amazing.

Host: It was an awesome example though.

Guest: Yeah, sure.

Host: That's sad. I appreciate that, dude. We're an hour in, so we'll give you that. I do want to be respectful of your time so we can wrap up. But I get what you're saying. Sometimes you have to show them that the pain exists because they don't know it. I'll give you an example so you can recalibrate your thoughts after what just happened.

Guest: Thank you.

Host: My wife's agency—she runs on TAM, a rack server in her office. They grew at a pretty decent number this year, considering all the awfulness that happened to her family personally, and take into effect that they run on very old-school technology. One of the things we were talking about for this upcoming year was—for those who don't know, we lost a very close family member, her brother, this year, who actually worked in the agency. They were still able to put a positive number on the books. It speaks to the quality of the agency and the other staff members who picked up slack. What I said to them was, "Okay, if you were to do the exact same things again this year and grow the exact same amount, you would be happy. But would you be happy if I said with small technology tweaks that provide efficiency with the same exact team, the same exact people, the same exact relationships, you would have the potential to double that growth? To take it from 5% to 10%, from 7% to 14%?" That's not a problem that exists to them today. They made a good amount of money and they've consistently made money throughout the history of the agency. So to come up to them and say, "You have a problem," they're going to say, "I don't have a problem. Look how well we're doing." But then you have to show them. From a marketing perspective, if you're able to pull off the Neon story—and I don't mean that in a negative sense—if you're able, like any marketer has to turn people on to their product, if you're able to do that with something like Neon where you're first establishing a problem that most people don't necessarily know exists and then show them how your product solves it, you will have customers for life. They will never leave you. They will be your absolute brand advocates, your ambassadors. They will literally take people by the hand and walk them in the front door because you found opportunity. It's not just, "Oh, I was struggling with this and I've tried a couple of vendors and you're the best of the worst." It's, "You took this problem that was there, a cancer that existed in my business that I didn't know was there. You showed me it and then cured me of it." That's why I said to you when you talked to me about Neon, I think this is one of the most worthy causes in our industry. To the extent that you solve it—and it seems like you're going to solve it—if the only impact Neon had were the conversations this has created about our industry, it's a game changer. If this were like a time machine movie where they had that timeline thing and here's where the singularity happens, the formation of Neon and what you're doing now feels like that moment. I'm just very happy for you guys. It's so exciting to watch.

[Pause]

Host: I have one last question for you, and then I'll let you go because we're way over. But I'm probably going to talk for another hour.

Guest: Keep doing more examples like that.

Host: Which, just so everyone knows, I like to make fun of Sid. It's one of my favorite things. Only because I love her so much. For my last question, this speaks to solving a problem that people don't know exists. I want to take it all the way back to where we started. I listened to that podcast you did from NOLA. In that podcast, which I'll have linked up in the show notes of this episode at ryanhandley.com forward slash Sydney—I'll do Sydney because if I do Sid, people will spell it wrong—you went on towards the end. I don't want to call it a diatribe because it was more than that. It was a soliloquy of sorts. In there, you talk about this idea of packaging clients, knowing what people are doing at all times, being able to connect interdepartmentally. I'm not describing it as well as you did, so go back and listen to it. But you described the actual problem that Neon is solving. The silence in that room was deafening. It's nothing against that particular audience because I feel like you could have said what you said to just about any insurance audience outside of maybe a couple dozen people, and most of them are already part of the Neon pilot. The few that were following definitely were not on that level, and the rest of the audience was like, "I don't even know what she's saying." So my last question is, how do you break through that barrier? You have a very long way to take people. From what I heard before the podcast ended, it sounded like they were talking in a different language. They just could not get to where you were coming from. Again, that's not a knock on that audience. That would have been the case for anyone. So how do you pull people that distance? How do you get them there?

Host: Geez, dude, why'd you save this one for the end?

Guest: [Laughs] Just came to me. I just make this shit up as I go.

Host: Oh, man. How do you get them there?

Guest: They're gonna get themselves there, I think, is the real answer. At the end of the day, people ask me how do you market, what's your strategy, who are you going after? I'll never forget sitting on this carrier call. It was like 30 days into being an official Beatomic employee, and the carrier was like, "So what kind of agents are you going after? 10 to 15 size employees, certain amount of revenue, are they all in Ohio, do you want some in California, are they all trucking, are they all personal lines, more commercial lines?"

I got off the call and I talked to Seth, and I was like, "We need personas. We need to be able to tell these people what they're like." This was a big call, and I was frustrated that I didn't have an answer. I realized very slowly over the last couple months that the answer isn't in the makeup of their business, but the makeup of the leadership's culture and where they want to go.

I think this industry—and we tried to start this at Agency Nation—the industry needs to wake up and try to want to do things better, be better. We sell a product that people have to buy. I think that almost gives us an excuse to be a little lazy. We're not the restaurant in New York that's gonna go out of business because there's cooler food being sold down the road. People need what we're selling.

I think we're looking for the type of agent and the type of agency that is willing to be really vulnerable about what's actually going on in their industry, going on in their agency, and take a look. That's what data is. It's transparency and vulnerability. At the end of the day, it's not some cool quick fix where you plug this into that and boom, your agency is super spectacular and rainbow filled. No, it's going to take a lot of very courageous work.

We're looking for the people who see that and actually want to take an honest look at their business and stand in front of the mirror and say, "I want to do that. I want to move forward." I'm not in the atomic because of cool technology. I could care less about the technology part of it. We're looking for those people who want to be better and do better. This is just a vehicle to get there. The technology isn't the end in and of itself. It's a way to become closer to your best self and a way to become closer to the partners in the industry.

So how are we going to get them there? The industry at the end of the day either wants it or they don't. I can't make Neon work. Seth can't make Neon work. I can't shove it down people's throats. Either they're going to hear the message and we're going to attract the right people, and they'll walk in and be like, "I've been looking for this. Thank you." Or we're not, and we're going to go out of business. And that's going to be the story that was told. Hopefully it won't be because we didn't do a good job. I just hope the industry wants it. I hope they're willing to walk through the front doors.

Host: Yeah, no, I think you started with the perfect answer: they're gonna get there themselves. What I think people trust, if I'm just looking from the outside, is that Seth has a vision and a desire to create a high level, and he's partnered with someone who can tell that story in a way that no one else can. I believe that if there is anyone who could do it, it will be you guys. I think your honesty in that—look, it may work, it may not work—that's the case with everything. To go in in any other fashion is just shallow hubris.

I do believe personally, and it's why I was so excited for you when you decided to take this on, because this is no small order. You know that. But if there is anyone that can do it, it's you guys. Some of the other partners you have are absolutely the right people that you need to be in business with. It's going to be incredibly fun to watch, man. I appreciate you coming on the show. I've taken up way too much of your time today. I'm so glad that we didn't talk about data that much, because that's not really what I wanted to talk about. You're talking about data a lot, and anyone who goes and listens to the Beatomic podcast—I 100% recommend it, I listen to it—you're gonna hear all kinds of different stuff, all kinds of great interviews. It's absolutely a must-listen, and watch the YouTube channel. Even if you never get on Neon, the things that you are talking about in that YouTube channel are so important. Whether you ever consider Neon as a product or Be Atomic or any Be Atomic services, that YouTube channel is a must subscribe. I'll have that linked up at ryanhanley.com forward slash Syd.

If they want to get at you directly, though, what's the best spot to connect with you?

Guest: Any social media platform. My email is syd at beatomic.com. You can always shoot me an email. And then beatomic.com is our website. There's a form on there that you can sign up for. Those are the three places: social, website, hit me with an email.

Host: Awesome. Thanks, dude.

Guest: Right back at you. Thank you.

[End of interview. Advertisement begins.]

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