--:-- Ryan Hanley: What up everybody and welcome back to the show. And I mean the show, the podcast, podcast. You are here and you're getting something special today. Not special because of anything I did, special because I'm lazy. What I mean by that is I recorded an episode that you've already heard if you listen to the show with Jack Wingate, and it was amazing. I got to the end of that episode and I hit stop record, and then as always, we kept chatting about a couple different things.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I had daisy-chained episodes, meaning I had scheduled Jack Wingate, and then right after Jack Wingate, I had scheduled Jeff Roy. Yes, that Jeff Roy. Well, me and Jack are bullshitting, and Jeff Roy pops into the Zoom. And then we just started rapping, all of us, all three of us start rapping. I just hit the record button. Frankly, we didn't even really talk about a lot of the stuff that I wanted to talk about with Jeff because Jack was there in the most positive way. We're just rapping and going and talking about stuff that insurance people talk about.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: It was one of those moments that I felt had to be captured. It's such a pleasure to share this moment with you because I feel like this is the way really forward-thinking, forward-leaning insurance agency owners think. This is where their minds are. This is what the conversations are like over a glass of whiskey or a couple beers or whatever when we can actually get together. It's just such a pleasure to share with you. Quite literally, this is why I do this podcast—being able to share moments like this with you. I wish I could share more of them with you, but I'm glad that I got this one to be able to give to you.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I hope you learn something, and I hope you take something away, and I hope you connect with Jack and connect with Jeff, and I hope it helps you grow your business. Before we get there, though, I want to give a real quick shout out to Advisor Evolved. Chris Langell and his team at Advisor Evolved do an incredible job. I get questions all the time about, "Ryan, who built your website?" And I tell them there is no other website option in the insurance industry other than Advisor Evolved. There are other website providers, but if you're looking to actually grow your business, then you need Advisor Evolved. You need to be part of the community, you need the product, and you need all the tools that come with an Advisor Evolved website.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Go to advisorevolved.com or just Google Advisor Evolved or Google Chris Langell. Most likely, you'll get a picture of him on the Jersey Shore doing his thing. That's an inside joke. He's from Philly, actually. But Chris is an incredible guy. He grew up in the independent insurance industry world. He transitioned that into a love for website design and has built the website product for independent insurance agents. Get an Advisor Evolved website today if you don't have one. You are losing business if you do not have an Advisor Evolved website because people aren't finding you. I have an Advisor Evolved website. It was a no-brainer for me. He was my first call. I just highly recommend Chris Langell and Advisor Evolved.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: With that, I give you Jeff Roy, Jack Wingate, and myself, just wrapping insurance.
--:-- Jeff Roy: I was looking at Tech Canary and then Applied by Tech Canary. Seth's working on getting us integrated with Applied. Hopefully that works because Applied's got 70% of the market up and they've got the best rating. We're 80% personal lines. I can't live without their Raider, so I have to love them. Meanwhile, they're gouging the shit out of me on price, but I can't fix it.
--:-- Jack Wingate: I'm not a big Applied fan, but I have to love them and move on.
--:-- Jack Wingate: I knew that you were kind of in that beta group. I didn't know that you didn't have the full thing. Are you doing what you thought it would do?
--:-- Jeff Roy: Well, it will once the setup is done. Nobody's really set up Marketing Cloud for insurance that I know. The good thing is we're doing a lot of really kick-ass marketing stuff. We've already got all the marketing, but it's in ten different devices. So we're taking ten into one, and we're going to have the data once that's done. I think we're going to be able to help a lot of the other agents because I thought most other agents were doing what we're doing, and I'm finding out that we're doing a lot more stuff than the average Joe.
--:-- Jeff Roy: So we're going to help other agents, and they're going to help us. They're going to have some cool shit like, "Hey, this worked in Canada." I'm going to grab that and bring it north of the border. And as I always say, Canadianize it. And vice versa, they'll be Americanized and stuff. So it should work pretty decent. Things are okay. Like I said, never content, never happy. But we're progressing. As you said, as an owner, there's no finish line. As soon as you think you hit the finish line, that's on the truck hitch in the side of the head. So you can't stay complacent. You can't not do anything. And you can't cruise.
--:-- Jeff Roy: We're just grinding right now. I've never grinded so hard. But I'm grinding because there really isn't much else I can do anyway. I can go sit by my pool and hang out, but I can't really travel. I can't go to the U.S. Can't go anywhere. I'm going to a friend's cottage for the summer for a couple days. That's my holiday. We planned to go away a few places, but that's all kibosh. So the good thing is work on our business and make sure our people are safe and help out in our community. That's kind of our gig.
--:-- Jeff Roy: My wife said she knew I always worked hard. But since I'm working in the basement right now—
--:-- Jack Wingate: Dude, yeah.
--:-- Jeff Roy: —I'm pretty damn good basement. I like all the video stuff, man. The sweet road mic back there. You shoot, you shoot, you shoot like X-rated movies down there. But she was like, "I knew you worked hard, but having you be in here for three, four, or five straight months, you don't stop." And it's like you said, if I still had to go out and all I did was sell policies, I'd shoot myself in the head. But there's always a different challenge every day. That's what keeps it exciting because I like solving something that hasn't been solved or blazing a trail. I like being uncomfortable because I always seem to be uncomfortable. That's the gig. I'm kind of getting used to it.
--:-- Jack Wingate: As you said, you're solving problems. You mentioned bottlenecks. I look back to critical paths in operation management from business school. You're always trying to find the bottleneck of the critical path. As you grow, that path moves around, and you're always trying to fix a new problem. It's like a video game. I put a thing on Twitter about Donkey Kong. You're going up different levels, and the donkey's throwing the barrels at you. Sometimes you get whomped, you get thrown down, but you get back up and you figure a way to beat the level. Then you're going, "Damn, I'm good." You get to the next level and it's like, "Holy shit, I don't know what I'm doing."
--:-- Jack Wingate: Then you try to find the smartest person in the room or somebody who's already done it, and you say, "Hey, how did you do it?" Then you rob and duplicate and make it your own, like American Idol. It's like becoming an artist. You got to go on the road, play your songs, grind it out. That's kind of what we're doing right now. That's probably the best way I can give analogies to how to do it right.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Jeff, one of the things that Jack and I were talking about during when I was interviewing Jack was that it feels like—and I don't want to say "the" because I don't think that's appropriate—but this is a golden age, or we're entering a potential golden age for independent agents. The impetus for this is not just technology, which I think is the obvious answer, but what you just said, which is our willingness as agents to share so deeply and so openly what we're doing in our businesses with each other so that the people who are searching for solutions can find them and make them their own in their agency. Do you agree with that?
--:-- Jeff Roy: Yeah, 100%. It's like we're a big Linux. I'm throwing the code and we're all writing the code together. I wrote the article for Hanley, for his last Agent Standing. Actually, do you want to do a screen share? Throw me a screen share. Can you screen share it? I'll show you something cool.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I think you just have to request it or something. You have to make me the presenter, so right-click and make me the host.
--:-- Jeff Roy: I know, Ryan, you're always in control, but we're going to flip it over. Today, the part of Ryan Hanley will be paid by Jeff Roy.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I'm okay with that.
--:-- Jeff Roy: All right, I'm just teasing.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I like this. I don't even have to do anything. This is like the best episode ever. Jack just interviews Jeff. I just sit here and listen. It's great.
--:-- Jeff Roy: I'm going to show you this just quickly. Can you see that?
--:-- Jeff Roy: Can you see that PDF or not?
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah. The customer journey. Can you see all this?
--:-- Jeff Roy: I see "Hanley downturn." That's not making me feel super good.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: No, it's not what it does. His notes were those.
--:-- Jeff Roy: Yeah. It's the typo. No, no downturn. It says "Hanley slash," and then there's J-A-C-K-A-S-S. I was like, "What is going on here?"
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Come on, man.
--:-- Jeff Roy: No, it's all good, buddy. Let me just—I'm just trying to find my—why is PDF not coming up? Interesting. Just a second. One thing, I guess my PDF is on the wrong screen. Didn't know how sensitive this was. Give me one second.
--:-- Jack Wingate: Anytime I can fit in on a group of Jeff Roy and Ryan Hanley, I'm just going to sop it up.
--:-- Jeff Roy: There we go. Sorry, I had the wrong thing open, but give me one second. I even showed you my throat punch shirt.
--:-- Jack Wingate: Nice.
--:-- Jeff Roy: It's a Motörhead shirt. It's pretty cool. We're a bunch of roadies going on the road. I was wearing it for my last podcast. We're doing a Canadian podcast called The Digital Insurance Pint. Seth sent me a shirt and a word in the podcast, but nobody really asked me what it meant, so it's too bad. Give me one second. I'll bring this up. That is weird. I don't like how this screen shares.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, you can pick your entire monitor or you can pick very specific.
--:-- Jeff Roy: It didn't come up because I had different versions of this, but let me try this again. Screen share. All right, there we go. Can you see that? In one second. It's going to give you a—okay, you're going to see that now. Oh, here comes something. You see that?
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, now I can see it.
--:-- Jeff Roy: We're building a—my article in Parodies—we're building customer journey maps where you go from awareness to consideration and all that stuff. We're building out journeys. This is our 17-page document. We're focusing on parents of young children, and we're trying to move them through the funnel: awareness, interest, consideration, action, purchase. We've looked at three segments. We took Jay Baer's five-by-five model, and we just came up with three: Resource Drain Parents, Do the Right Thing Parents, and Balls in the Air Parents.
--:-- Jeff Roy: We looked at the segments of why they're trying to stretch a dollar. We kind of explain them. Then we break it down for awareness. We start writing blogs and we have questions that we answer in each segment. We're going to create videos. We're going to create blogs. I've got another page, a 10-page document our team put together. At this stage, what does it look like? We have a video of the pop-up. We might have some ads on Facebook that communicate to parents. We've kind of gone through the whole journey where we talk about interest. Some parents, we're going to talk about being frugal. We went through the whole journey in terms of different pages and segments and basically figured out what to do in the entire journey. At each spot, they can jump into a funnel.
--:-- Jeff Roy: Hopefully they go, "I want to jump in and get a rate from these guys. These guys get me." We're building this out. We're building about 25 pieces of content that'll be all interconnected. We're building a content journey to go after these personas to see if we can bring in a better class of business. After we do that, we're going to apply it to DINKs—double income, no kids. We're going to apply the same process. Some of the articles will work. We just need to write it towards double income versus family. That's kind of where we're at right now.
--:-- Jeff Roy: We're going to put this on Marketing Cloud. Hopefully this drives traffic like we've never done and brings a better quality of business. We find we can bring quality business in, but it's not always quality. 900 leads for three or four hundred—we don't want to write that. We're still bringing that business in. Not super quality. Our markets don't really want that. We find we get 50% of our leads we actually get in touch with. Some of the people are just playing around. So out of 900 leads, that's 450, 500 serious leads. We have to really work those leads well, but we get a lot of stuff like the shaft. When you're panning for gold, a lot of stuff flies out of the thing when you're panning, looking for the gold. That's kind of the process we got. We're just trying to refine that right now.
--:-- Jeff Roy: I thought you'd find that kind of cool. We got this 17-page document that we're working through, working through a persona, building all this content journey—videos, blogs, whatever we need to do. We have a funnel that when they click on it, it'll look like a family and it'll speak their language. Hopefully when we get somebody into that funnel, they're going, "Wow, these guys get me." We even have contests. One of the things we're doing—I don't tell anybody—but we're doing a coloring book for the night, the Excalibur Knight coloring book we're going to give out in our new business kits. These kids will color it. It'll tell a story in there.
--:-- Jeff Roy: One of our staff said, "The vet gave me a book when I was nine and I still have it to this day because I loved that coloring book. It meant a lot to me." Never thought of a coloring book. So we're going to build a coloring book. How many insurance brokers will build a coloring book? But we're going to do it because it's on brand, and people will get it in their new business kit, and it'll be kind of an experience. The book will talk about—we looked at "Everything I Learned I Learned in Kindergarten." We could take those messages and put it into a book for kids. They're coloring plus learning stuff at the same time. That's one of the projects we're working on. It's kind of deep, but hopefully at the end of the day, everybody's like, "Wow, these guys get me," and they get into our funnel, and we write them, and we maintain them as clients.
--:-- Jack Wingate: Hey, Jeff, is that—and I'm sorry, Ryan.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: No, you're fine.
--:-- Jack Wingate: Is that your normal workflow to identify a niche? So right there, you identified this niche of parents. Is that your normal workflow, or is this like, "Hey, let's try this?" Because that's an in-depth funnel and strategy.
--:-- Jeff Roy: We're trying this for the first time. I'm just sharing with you what we're doing. We've never done this. We're running AdWords right now, driving people to landing pages. We're getting seven and eight dollar clicks—actually more like four or five dollar clicks. We're generating ten, eleven dollar leads on pay-per-click, and we're closing probably ten percent, which is a hundred dollar acquisition cost. That's working well. We're getting about 300 to 500 organic leads through our website a month. That just comes in. Again, you can't control what comes in through your website as much. You write content, you drive people, but good stuff comes in, bad stuff comes in. The good thing is it continues to turn. We just have to keep working on the SEO.
--:-- Jeff Roy: But we've never actually said, "Hey, this niche we want to really go after." The one thing Excalibur hasn't done well is we're not niching anything. We don't have any affinity groups. We're just good at personal lines, and we have a really good process and a good brand. But we don't really go after group plans and stuff like that. We've never done well at that or been able to kick ass at affinity programs. That's something we'd like to bring on board in the next year if we can get this dialed in. If we're going to be the people that say, "Hey families, Excalibur gets us," and go after that whole thing, and people go, "Wow, Excalibur understands me. I didn't click through. I want to know more because they're speaking my language."
--:-- Jeff Roy: Right now, our content is generic and it speaks to everybody. "Hey, we get defenders," blah blah blah. But I'm speaking to the pain points of a family member. "Hey, you got no sleep last night. You got an hour to do your insurance. It's five o'clock. You've got three hours sleep. As your insurance broker, can I book an appointment?" We have all that stuff right there for people to consume, hoping it gets them into the funnel. We actually speak what their pain points are and we address it with our services. We speak the language of parent. That's what we're trying to do.
--:-- Jeff Roy: This is something—again, this call, we're just riffing with you guys. We haven't figured out if this is going to work. I wrote an article about agents writing random acts of content where they'll write a kick-ass blog about whatever, and they get some SEO traffic. But I have a picture that shows a beautiful island, a deserted island, and then basically a shark's mouth where the content's crap and it eats you. The bacon island or the isolated item—you go there, there's one great content, you're stuck there. If you have multiple in the content experience, you get a resort. You basically get people into three buckets.
--:-- Jeff Roy: We're trying to figure out the resort concept where we parachute people into a good experience. Hopefully they consume stuff, we answer their questions, they jump into our funnel, and we connect with them. That's what we're trying to do. That's what my article in a nutshell is for Parodiso's magazine. I talk about this now. This is the first time we've actually applied it this deep. I have no idea if it's going to work, but I think it's going to work better than what we're doing now to bring people in. I'll know a lot more in the next three to five months when we roll it out, we test it, we fail, it doesn't work, and I'm pissed off, we have to tweak things. But I just shared it to you guys to see what you thought.
--:-- Jack Wingate: For us, I started doing this at the beginning of the year to a way, way lesser extent than what you're talking about. Putting content out was always just sort of a freaking shotgun approach. "Hey, I'm going to write about this today or whatever." I had Jared over here hammering out Instagram because he loves that. Our messaging was all disjointed. Selfishly, I knew I needed to tweak some of our content pages, like the workers comp page or whatever. So I would pick a theme of the week, and we still do it to this day. It's helped us tremendously. This week it's workers comp, so everything we post on social is all going to be built around this one thing. That's basically what you did, taking it up about 15,000 notches.
--:-- Jack Wingate: I think that's where a lot of people mess up. There's no plan for their content. It's just sort of rapid fire. "I'm going to throw this out there and see if it sticks," instead of kind of like Hanley was saying, he doesn't promote his content as well as he should. It's the same thing. It's what's the strategy and the plan. That's half the battle right there.
--:-- Jeff Roy: It's a flip because people look at—our SEO guy can say, "Hey, here's the 10 topics people are talking about. I need to have an article about that." You write an article and hope somebody shows up. You might have a call to action on the page. But what's the next step? They don't want to take your call to action. They're done. They'll bail. A lot of people consume one page and they're gone. That's the bad content journey. If you can build—once they're here, here's eight other questions they may ask. You have them linked into that page and they consume it, then you're okay. That's content journey.
--:-- Jeff Roy: I went to a thing called Uberflip last year in August. I was the only insurance guy there to like 900 people. That's where I learned at Content Marketing World about, "Hey, here's how marketers do it. Here's what B2B, B2C look like." I started speaking a different language. Just being around those people taught me, "Wow, we don't get it at all." Our page looks kind of cute and our brand's good, but our content's not nailing it. Everybody's talking about blog, blog, blog. Blog's good, but you got to blog with purpose. You got to create the journey.
--:-- Jeff Roy: That's where I think everybody's got hung up. They wrote a couple of blogs, nothing's happening, they give up. It's like doing a workout program. "I'm going to do P90X for three days and want to look jacked." Or, "I'm going to do CrossFit for three days and win a competition." It doesn't work that way. That's the problem right now. A lot of people want the easy fix and they don't want to do the hard work. They don't want to learn. This is hard stuff. I don't know if it's going to work awesome. There's risk involved. We're spending a lot of money and time on it, but I feel it's the right path. I feel it's going to be better than what we have. I think we're taking a step up from what we were doing before, so I'm confident that it's secure.
--:-- Jeff Roy: When Jay Baer says, "Here's what you need to do," we took his formula. It's a 230-page book. If you want me to send you the PDF, Jack, happy to send it to you, Ryan.
--:-- Jack Wingate: Please do.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I've got it. I can flip it over to you.
--:-- Jeff Roy: I think I got your email, Jack. I'm not sure. If not, I know I got you on Facebook. Flip me a messenger and I'll flip it over to you. I can do a WeTransfer. But it's good. The problem is we tried executing it. It was harder trying to come up with the questions in each category than we thought. And then what does the content look like? Come up with the questions. Do you just answer it with a blog? No, you have some video. You have some variety. That's kind of what we're going through. I don't know if it's going to work, but at least we're going to try. As I always tell you, launch, learn, fail, fix.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: What's amazing to me about that, Jeff, is that—and I'm sure it's the same way in Canada—I can sit around here and I can Google "insurance agent Winston-Salem, North Carolina." If I find people's websites, if I can find them, they're crap. I've been to your website. It was a good website to begin with. It wasn't just a pretty picture that a lot of people throw up there. It had content. And Jeff just said it's not just about doing blogs. It's got to be deeper than that. You're the 1% of people—and gosh, I hope I'm getting there at some point in time—that understand it's not just about doing the minimal work. You've taken what no one else is doing and said, "Shit, this doesn't work. It's not good enough. I got to do better."
--:-- Ryan Hanley: He said he got 900 leads in one month. People are going to hear that and go, "How the hell did he do that? What are you doing? What's your secret?" Then you hear it's an 18-page breakout document outlining a customer journey with personas and questions and second and third tier content with multimedia follow-ups, hard follow-ups. That's how you get to that level. We talked a little bit about this during our thing too. So many people are looking for that quick fix. The answer every time with every person who you talk to who's successful in any regard is always, "I went deeper than everybody else for longer than everybody else. And eventually, I got there." That is always the answer.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Jeff, you've been diving into this stuff for a decade. We've been talking about content for 10 years. So it's not like this is—I don't want people to hear that and go, "Well, geez, I'm screwed because I don't have 10 years." But you can get really far fast. That next level is what takes a lot of work. But get really far fast. Do the work. Put some work in in time and start to think about it. There's some hacks. You have to grind it. There's no such thing as an overnight success. Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 hours—you look at all those things. But there are some hacks to get through it. The hacks are your agent friends that have tried things and learning, jumping on their learning curve.
--:-- Jeff Roy: I think it was TaskRabbit. They talked about the power of the human cloud. A lot of people would go on board, they would have a task, people would hire them. What happened is all the people on the board started sharing skills. I might have had one skill and I shared, and I could do 10 different things. They're sharing, monetized everybody else. Jeff Roy was good at mowing lawns, before you know it he's a handyman and he can do 10 more things. His revenue went up 10 times. Why? Because he shared and he's part of a bigger collective. That's where the agents that would be successful are going to be part of a bigger collective. They're going to share.
--:-- Jeff Roy: You've seen pockets. You get classes, Agency Intelligence, you got IAOA. There's a bunch of different groups out there that work together. Some of them got really big, so some of that sharing is hard because it's so big. You need almost a smaller group. People set up a mastermind group. The power of the mastermind, whatever it is you do. The more times you're out there running into people belly to belly, face to face—and again in the COVID world, Zoom to Zoom or GoToMeeting to GoToMeeting—the more chance you have of stumbling upon, "Man, I never thought of it that way," or "That idea worked for them, why isn't it working for me?" Or better yet, "That person—I can't believe they're doing it. If they can do it, I can do it."
--:-- Jeff Roy: A lot of times people look like they make it look really easy, but it's kind of like the duck that looks calm on the surface, and the legs are going crazy below. There's a lot more below the iceberg or the water than most people see. That's where it's just about grinding it out.
--:-- Jeff Roy: And it's not being scared to fail. I know everybody wants to not fail. I think the only reason we're starting to get a little bit better is we're not scared to fail. We're still trying stuff. We're not sitting around waiting for things to fly into our hands. We're not waiting for things to come to us, we're trying to make things happen.
--:-- Jeff Roy: I bet you I've had way more failures than most people in the last year. That's why we learned, right? Failing fast, fail forward, whatever you want to say. It's got to be part of your DNA. As soon as that's part of your culture and your DNA, the chances are you can accelerate and get through things a little bit quicker.
--:-- Jeff Roy: Then you're going to hit walls. I'm in a wall right now. We have to scale training better. Our training isn't good enough. I'm trying to figure out how I can put everything online, videos, basically. Then I heard about Quantum, Jeff Shay or whatever. He's killing it. He's my new superhero. I met him during COVID. He's part of our mastermind group. I reached out to him and we chatted during COVID. He was going to get me some masks for my area, he got a line on it. We got to know each other just over COVID, and I'm looking forward to circling back.
--:-- Jeff Roy: I look at what he's done for training. We have to, as agents, acknowledge it. If you listen to Cass talk to his assistant—I forget what her name was, off Quantum. She did a great webinar about how they're training.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Caitlin Eggers.
--:-- Jeff Roy: Yeah, Caitlin Eggers. She killed it, in my opinion. I was out watering my plants in this hot heat listening to her with my Bose headset on, for a book, and I couldn't stop it because I'm like, "Wow, this is a person that solved one of the things I'm not good enough at." I'm going to reach out to Caitlin. I think it's education, I wrote down the email somewhere. That's on my list to do. I haven't had time this week, but before Friday's up, I'm going to reach out to her and Jeff and say, "I want to learn how you guys do it. I want to open up the hood because you guys are doing way better than me."
--:-- Jeff Roy: I'm the first one to say, "Hey, we're not good enough. Show me something better." Likewise, if somebody needs help, I'm the first one to say, "Here's what we're doing. Here's what's worked." I openly share with people. I've always done that. It's always the law of sharing reciprocity for agents. Whatever you give comes back in spades. I think that's something that if more people could learn that... I wish the past generation shared a little bit more because there wasn't as much sharing. My dad's generation, he was scared. He was by himself. He's a business guy and he didn't have anybody to share with. That's a very lonely existence and difficult.
--:-- Jeff Roy: I look at all of us on the phone here. Jack, Ryan, we've got a pretty good network of friends. If you can't figure it out, if you don't know something, you can pick up the phone and there's 30 people you can call to help you. Every one of them will help you. But nobody ever asked. Everybody's too humble to ask.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, it's ego. What I love about the network of people that I feel blessed to be part of—you two are in there, but there's hundreds, if not thousands—I feel like one of the defining characteristics, and I hate to talk generationally, but at least of this segment, this particular group of agents and agency owners that are pushing up through, is that there is so much less ego. When you go to events, it's not, "Well, I did this much premium this year," or "I made the gold club of Safeco."
--:-- Jack Wingate: My dad's bigger than your dad.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah. You'd be like, "Oh, my agency has been around for a hundred years," and mine's been around for 107 years. No one cares anymore. You walk around and you're talking about every aspect of your business and people are open about it. You say, "We were struggling to train 10 years ago." You saying that, people would be looking at you going, "Oh, look at Jeff's agency. He's screwed. Look at the weakness. He can't train his people." That would be the mentality.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: But today, I feel like so much of that has been brushed aside. People are now like, "Oh my God, I got this great training platform. I'll share this with you." You'll be bombarded with people helping you find solutions. I feel like that has flipped. It's one of the things that makes me the most happy about where we are as an industry. In my time in the industry, which has not been that long, 13 or 14 years, the difference in terms of the ego people have for their business, the openness, the willingness to share, has gone 180 degrees. It's almost like who can share the most in a positive way.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I love that about where we're at because it allows someone like me, who has failed a million more times than I've ever been successful, to call one of you guys and go, "Hey man, what am I screwing up here? This thing isn't working." And everyone else is willing to take that call and share how they fix the problem.
--:-- Jack Wingate: The funny thing—and I'm sure Jeff, you're the same way, though I don't know because you do it at such a high level—but Jason Kilgo, we've become somewhat good friends. He called me up and said, "Hey, do you have some time to show me your video setup?" Someone wanted to know my video setup. I was like, "Okay, come on now." So he calls me because he wants some help and I'm more than willing to give it. Then what inevitably happens is I start talking to him about what he's doing in his business and I pick something up. We've reached that point where if someone will just ask, you're not infringing upon someone's time. I can guarantee you most of the people that I know, Jeff included, are more than willing to help because they know it betters all of us, but also you're going to pick something up too. It's a great world we live in.
--:-- Jeff Roy: I know that in my 31 years—I just celebrated 31 years as a broker, got my license at 18—when I first started, there wasn't a lot of stuff. My dad had a George Nordhaus binder on his wall. IMS Services, I think it was called at that point. Funny enough, I hooked up with him five years ago and I told him I saw that book was the first thing I saw in marketing for insurance. We didn't have any marketing. We didn't even have a computer. I put the first computer in our office back in '89.
--:-- Jeff Roy: Back then, I didn't have this group of people. There's no internet. The internet really changed the game because you could find people all over the world. Once people learned how to do it, people were never closer. You could hook up with people. But I didn't have that opportunity. It wasn't probably till 2010, my last 10 years, when I really hooked up with people. That's when the good stuff started to happen. I was in a vacuum or a cloud. I look at it and think, "Wow, if I had all these people now when I was younger, man, what a difference that would be." I don't dwell on that, but I want to make sure that I try and help people as much as I can because I didn't have that access. I want to make sure that I can help and give back in any way I can for people that matter.
--:-- Jeff Roy: I don't want other people to be in a vacuum and not see the light. We want to try and help agency owners get to another level. It's all about getting up in levels. It's not the numbers that defines you. It's what you do to define the numbers. What grind you're doing, the culture, everything you've built, that's what it's all about. It's about enjoying the work. It's not about the destination. It's about the journey along the way.
--:-- Jeff Roy: If you have good people and you surround yourself with good people at work and your friends—I always say you become the six people we hang out with the most. Choose wisely. It's really important that you surround yourself with good people because this business will beat you up if you're surrounded by bad people. None of us, it's hard enough to do this business if you're doing everything well, but starting yourself with bad people can be very difficult.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Cool. That was a little fun. This kind of happened out of nowhere.
--:-- Jeff Roy: Yeah, yeah. Well, I didn't mean to take up all your interview there.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I love it. It was great. I had no idea what we were doing. We were more getting caught up. Any chance I can get to have you on the show, it is a win for me. I always have a very small agenda. What I was really interested in is the podcast and your idea. I love the content journey stuff, but this whole idea and the fact that you've started a podcast and that you're reaching out into the market and that you're taking that time to do that. I'm interested in that mindset.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I have a local podcast that I do, but I've been podcasting since 2013. It comes kind of naturally to me. Seeing you, and I think Lipstone is starting a podcast, and I've seen some other people start local or niche podcasts. I'm just interested in the mentality. What's the motivation behind it? What's getting you excited about it to go and do that work? Because it's work, like anything else.
--:-- Jeff Roy: Well, again, I have different opportunities, but doing it myself and putting the time in and focusing, I just don't have the time to block off. So I needed a team. Adam Mitchell, a good broker friend of mine from Mitchell Wales Insurance, he's won the Ontario Broker of the Year, Young Gun, super good guy. Him and I chatted about, "Let's do a podcast, let's do a podcast." Then we both got too busy, squirrels, things happen. Cutting out time to do a podcast is not easy.
--:-- Jeff Roy: So our friend Tom Reed, who used to run the digital brokers for Aviva, brought Steve Earl in, who's a broker from Eastern Canada. He has a traditional brokerage and started a broker called Cheap Up from scratch. We were all friends, and we would sit there and riff. We would get together twice a year and geek out on insurance and talk about it probably 24/7. We all had very strong opinions, so we thought, "Let's put a podcast together." It was going to be "The Digital Insurance Beer," but we figured "A Pint" sounds a little more sophisticated.
--:-- Jeff Roy: In the time it takes to drink a beer, we're going to try and share knowledge and experience with people from three digital brokers that have kind of differing journeys, but all have a different perspective of what it's like to change your brokerage. We've done eight or nine episodes now. We've got a website. We're not live yet, so we're going to announce it. I'm not sure when this will air, Ryan, but I might have to tell you to put this in the archive for a bit until we at least launch "The Digital Insurance Pint."
--:-- Jeff Roy: We're tackling things like going paperless to the consumer. That's a huge issue right now in Canada because our companies are saying, "Hey, we want to cut the paper off," and they're doing it during COVID when most of us aren't super equipped to do it, or we were equipped but it's going to take some time. That's an example of an issue we talked about on the podcast. All four of us have strong opinions. We're trying to have a bit of fun with it. I don't think we're trying to change the world with it. We're not trying to go worldwide. We're not trying to be like "The Insurance Guys" or "Insurance Dudes" or like Ryan Hanley. We just think that there's an opportunity to talk about stuff.
--:-- Jeff Roy: In Canada, there's a thing called "Hockey Night in Canada" where they have the "Hot Stove Lounge." Three or four people in the industry talk about what's going on and share insights. That's kind of what it is. We will invite some people on, so you might be getting a call next year, guys. We're just trying to get through season one. It's fun. As you said, it's not easy. You got to prepare your script and your topics. But the one thing nobody in our group is shy of is having an opinion. We have experience. We've all been there.
--:-- Jeff Roy: It goes back to what we talked about earlier. It's a sharing economy. It's sharing ideas and insights. We're doing it for the better of the industry and to get some viewpoints out there. I don't think some of the companies and vendors listen to brokers and agents enough. Things are done to us, not with us. We need to change that narrative. One of my things the last number of years is I want to change the narrative. I want to be at the table. I want to make sure the broker viewpoint is there.
--:-- Jeff Roy: I talk about the three legs of the stool. There's only been really two legs. How stable is a two-legged stool? Not very stable. That broker agent being the third leg with the company and vendors makes all the difference. You want to put a fourth leg on it, you can get into ACORD, CZO, the standards. That gives you that stability. In the past, people have been making decisions without other parties in mind and putting themselves first. It's got to be a win-win-win-win for everybody. I'm hopeful that we can get more dialogue, make people understand things, and continue to build better stuff and better experiences for consumers.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: That particular topic, I look at tools like Tarmica, which I'm obviously an enormous fan of. Actually today, my interview with Ragheth, the co-founder of Tarmica, just went live. I see that as a tool that can help force the broker opinion to the table. In my four months that I've been doing this on my own, I get a small business account in, $2,000 in premium. I got to go to Liberty and I got to go to Hartford. Then I got to log into Hanover's system, which forces me to go onto a whole different computer because it only works on Internet Explorer. Then I got to come back over to this computer to go to another company. Eventually I just get bored of that and I just pick one of them and I go. They know that's the way it is.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Then you take a tool like Tarmica, which completely democratizes that process. One single entry point for multiple quotes. Now it's not just whose system do I go to first. It's I'm staring at your rates side by side with six other companies. Now my job as the broker is to decide which one of you is the best for my client. Things start to matter beyond just, "Is my system the first one that you go to?" or "Is my system the most UI friendly?" Those anecdotal items don't matter anymore. Now I'm staring at the prices. You're $250 higher. That doesn't even mean that I won't sell your policy, but I actually get to determine what's going to be best for my client because I don't have to spend all this time trying to figure out who's where. It's all standing in front of me.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: As more agents and brokers start to adopt these tools, it's going to put pressure on the carriers to build deeper relationships with the agents so that they're picked out of the list. Before, it was like, "Oh, we sent you on this one trip, so now you choose us all the time." Because of that, you're kind of a master to a certain extent because you want to go on that golf trip again. I see that as a step in the right direction. Does that logic follow?
--:-- Jeff Roy: Yeah, exactly. It makes sense. The rules of the game are increasing right now. The bar is being raised. You need to have an open API. You need to connect things like Tarmica. If you're not, you're out of the game. The companies that don't will be left behind. It used to be, "Who's got a better portal?" That was company-centric. That was to their advantage because the agent had to learn a bunch of portals. The best portal won, and the one that got the job done, you went to and got it done. But is that best for the consumer? No. It's best for the agent and the company with the best portal.
--:-- Jeff Roy: Now with Tarmica and the open API, you can shop all the markets. You can give your consumer the right advice. You can make it quickly. All positive things. I don't mean to overstress Tarmica. I know people are probably sick of hearing it on this. I'm just very excited about it. There are other tools that do similar things, but it's these types of technology that are democratizing this process that I think help equal the playing field for all partners: the carrier, the customer, and the agent.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I sat on a couple of the task forces with carriers. They shoot themselves in the foot a lot of times because they'll spend half a billion dollars on their portal, on their rating systems, to stay in their little box. They could spend a fraction of the money, open their API to someone like Tarmica, and it wouldn't matter what your portal does. But they're afraid that if they get out there and exposed, then the advisor is just going to pick a price.
--:-- Jack Wingate: Nah, that's the way it used to be maybe. But moving forward, that's the sandbox they got to plug into. It used to be that way because you didn't have time to go to all seven portals. You simply did not have time to individually log information into all of them. So you would just go, "I'm pretty sure Liberty is the lowest and their portal is the easiest. So I'm just going to do that one. Maybe I'll do Hartford too, just to kind of keep them honest. I'll just tell the other carriers that they didn't get a shot at this one." That's not the best for the agency. It's certainly not best for the customer. And it's ultimately not even the best for the carrier because the carrier starts having risks that they don't even want shoved down their throat because it's just the most convenient system to use.
--:-- Jeff Roy: The game's leveling up. Just like I talked about agencies going through a cycle, the game's going through a cycle. Everything gets improved, the margins get cut, things get more efficient. I call it the plumbing of the industry. You're just connecting data back and forth. There's no reason why companies should be competing on the plumbing. We should make it open and easy to go through. The companies can compete on the data and the stuff behind the scenes. That's where the fun happens. How they brand, the features they put into their product, that kind of stuff. You can spend time talking about features and do more risk management if you're not spending time going into seven portals. Nobody's going to go into seven portals. We know that on a small account.
--:-- Jeff Roy: In Canada, we have PolicyWorks, a few other ways to market accounts, but it's still a fairly automated process. As we get more and more of the keystrokes out of it, if you cut the keystrokes, you can improve the time and the hands-on with the client, giving advice, building that customer experience, and improving the agent experience. Everybody talks about the customer experience. The agent is a customer too. I just don't think enough focus has been given to that to make it good for us. It's like, "I just got to make it better than the other company by a percent." But after I'm a percent better, I'm not going to go any further. There's not a lot of companies that really drilled into it and really looked at, "Hey, I want to wow my broker at every touch point."
--:-- Jeff Roy: I asked agents, "How many companies did anything for you during COVID?" You did stuff for your clients. We got a lot of memos. I had a few companies actually reach out and phone us, which was great. They phoned out and made sure we're okay. I had two or three companies that actually reached out with a phone call. But how many companies largely reached out? Jack, did you have a lot of companies reach out?
--:-- Jack Wingate: Erie did a great job of reaching out and actually saying, "Hey." They actually gave us a thousand bucks. That's not a huge thing, but it's not garbage. They said, "Look, company did something, gave you money." In Canada, that would be the only company to do that. They gave us advertising dollars splits and said, "Look, if you go spend a thousand bucks, we don't even care how you show it back to us. Just make sure you put Erie on whatever it is you did. We'll reimburse you the full thousand." I was like, "Dude, that's awesome." They were the biggest proponent of that type stuff in our agency, at least.
--:-- Jeff Roy: That's good. It's all about touch points. Companies haven't really thought about the touch points for agents. It hasn't been updated in a lot of years. Some companies have, I'm not going to paint everybody with the same brush. But I think the companies need a complete overhaul. I had a presentation done for Chubb. I was going to present to Jeffrey Graham and some of his team. COVID unfortunately stopped that. As soon as things clean up, I'm excited to present to Chubb because I have some really good insights. If I was a company, here's the things I'd be doing with agents and brokers to take things to the next level. I just don't find the companies really ask or care. They send a survey out. They want to get a high Net Promoter Score, but they don't talk about doing anything different.
--:-- Jeff Roy: It's going to be interesting how companies evolve over the next five to ten years. There's going to be more consolidation, just like brokers. There's a huge consolidation in brokers. There's a whole thing about scale. There's still going to be scratch agencies, but there's a certain scale where if you have scale, you have the markets, you have the resources to do things. It makes things a lot easier. You can get a lot more flow and grow a lot quicker. You can still do well as a startup agent, don't get me wrong, but you have to be super focused in your niche.
--:-- Jeff Roy: There's a huge evolution going through. I don't know where it's going to end. I don't know what it looks like. We talk about who's going to win, directs or agents. That's an age-old debate that goes back and forth like a tennis ball. I feel the agents are in the best spot of anybody to win because, just like Uber doesn't own any taxis, we don't own any policies. We have a chance to innovate and do well. So why not us? Why not now?
--:-- Jeff Roy: But the connectivity is the biggest issue we feel. The issue right now is connectivity and moving data. That is the biggest thing plaguing agents from getting to the next level. If we don't solve that quickly, we can't start using AI and machine learning to really dial things in. That's what scares me. That's why things like Neon with Seth have to get pushed through. We need more solutions like that. Solutions created by agents for agents. I'm really bullish on stuff like that. The whole collaboration thing.
--:-- Jack Wingate: Yeah, and we talked about this just a minute ago with Ryan. It's not just the systems either. When you interviewed Seth, you said, "What can agents do to help you and the calls who might not be on Neon or might never be on Neon or might be 10 years before they're on Neon?" I don't even know that Seth gave you an answer, but here's the answer. Agents, you have to start doing stuff differently. I'm not saying you got to put tons of money in your agency. But like we were talking about, stop selling like Geico on price. If your price is your value, that's fine, but find the places where you can bring value.
--:-- Jack Wingate: Look at what Jeff's doing. He's putting marketing strategies, time. Dude, that's crazy. That is value add right there, what he's doing, because he's willing to take the time to do it. Don't just rest on your laurels. If you want to help the industry out and have it be around, get off your ass, do a little work, call Jeff, call Seth, call anybody, and let's do it. Or don't be upset when no one gives a shit about your opinion.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yes. That's really where I've gotten with some of the Facebook groups. I love them because it gives you a tone of what people are thinking about. There are some good questions asked, but there are also a lot of really stupid questions, a lot of stupid comments. By stupid, I mean actually stupid. If you're not putting in the work to grow your book of business, if you're just hawking on price and you're asking the same questions about "Where do I get leads from?" Figure it out. Google "insurance leads." You'll see a thousand different companies that'll sell them to you. Try them all. The ones that work, keep. The ones that don't, get rid of them.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Join Nick Ayers' "Made You Look" thing. Try YouTube videos. Join Frank Menezes' thing. Try Facebook videos. Hire Austin Moorhead to build automations for you. I just don't understand this mentality where people just show up, don't really work that hard, and go, "How come no one's giving me the answer?" It's like, because you don't deserve the answer. Jeff Roy deserves every answer that he gets. He gets them because he works his frigging ass off. Every person who comes to him and every carrier that asks him for his advice, he earned it because he works hard. I don't even deserve the conversations that he has. I'm not just being overly humble. This dude has put in 31 years of hard work to figure out how to get 900 leads in a month and to not be happy with that. Like, "I can do more." It's that mentality that is separating.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I do see a clear separation between these agency owners and agents that act so helpless. Help is so available today. If you are willing to reach out and do a little bit of the work, it's more available than it's ever been. I say this to my kids when they play with other kids: form a hierarchy and operate in that ecosystem. Understand where your place is. If you're unhappy with your place, push your way up the hierarchy. That's the way the world works. There's never been another time in human history for people to figure things out, get the help, whatever. But you have to invest in yourself. You can't be static. You have to keep reinvesting. That's education, that's learning, that's failure, it's launching, it's all that kind of stuff.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: And these people that complain all the time, you know, I like people. If you generally have a problem, that's great. But let's say when you're, "Hey, I've got a problem." I see somebody complaining, I want to make sure they have a solution. Because if you don't have a solution, at least an idea of how you would fix it, you're bitching.
--:-- Jeff Roy: Nothing worse than learned helplessness, where people go, "Oh, I can't believe this carrier did that." Well, what are two things you can do? And nine times out of ten they're like, "Well, I can do this and this." Well great, why don't you do them?
--:-- A lot of people have the answer, but they just need that coaching. Or they get into a state where there's a lot of things going on and they get paralysis by analysis. They're not sure what to do and they just don't want to take action. And that's exactly when you have to take action—is when you don't want to and you're backed into a corner.
--:-- The industry can beat you up. You have to make sure that you're going to have your days where you go home and you have your doubt days. Everybody in any business has their doubt days. They're like, "What am I doing in this business?" But then you go, "You know what? Tomorrow's going to be a good day. Dust it off. Let's go on positive. My family's still healthy. I'm still healthy. I can figure things out. It's not the end of the world." So that's what keeps you going.
--:-- Jeff Roy: So anyway, that's the long answer to the podcast. No, I didn't say that. And again, we're doing it. We're kind of excited to get it going. Whether my friends in the U.S. can access it, we'll put it out there. I think the topics we're talking about are huge value both sides of the border. It's funny, I just feel like Canada and the U.S., there really isn't much difference. The company names are different. Some of your coverage terms are the same, but we're a little bit different. But at the end of the day, it's still the same.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah. Same industry, same challenges. Connectivity is a huge problem in the U.S. The U.S. isn't any further ahead than Canada on really anything. We're all kind of on the same levels. I used to think the U.S. was so far ahead. "Oh my God, I hope we catch up to them." And then when I started hanging out down there, I'm like, "Wow, it's the same. We have all the same problems." So that's good. We can insert ourselves, solve them together. It doesn't matter where you live. It's how you think, how you act, who you know, what you do. And a lot of people just aren't doing a lot of new things.
--:-- Jeff Roy: What's that saying? There's no such thing as old news, just old things happening to new people.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Right. So, yeah. Well, dude, I didn't expect this to be a group show. I'm incredibly happy that it was a group show. I appreciate both of you so much. Jack, I appreciate you again. For now, you're going to be in two podcasts, which is amazing. Jack, you're the man. You're the man, Jack. I appreciate you coming on.
--:-- Jeff, just sharing, man. I think you know that I think the world of you. I think it's why in 2018 you let off at Elevate, just blowing people away. I mean, I still have people that will reference your presentation at that conference. There are still people that will come up to me or, "Hey, do you remember Jeff? What he said?" And just, your impact on this industry has been, in probably the most humble way, so widespread. There's no way that I think you even realize how often your name is fluttered in conversations about things you've said or done and how many people aspire to be at the place that you are. So I appreciate you sharing your time and everything that you do.
--:-- Jeff Roy: You're very humble, man. And I said, just Jeff Roy from a small town in Canada trying to help out. That 2018, I look back to Cleveland, I kind of felt like that was the pinnacle of the new movement. The vibe in there was just awesome. The first two or three years of Elevate was great. It just kind of captured the moment. And now we're kind of in a different state. I'm not sure what that state is. I'm trying to put a name on it. You and I were chatting about that—where are we at now? It just kind of felt like all the new gadgets have been flushed out, all the shiny stuff. Everybody came out, everybody shared and done it. And now we're into more complicated stuff that's maybe less sexy. Like, I'm doing client journeys and all the content that's not super sexy when it's all done and working. Maybe that's a conversation. But there's just so much more work to do something to talk about. I feel like there's so much more we need to do at Excalibur to do something that's worthy of talking to people about.
--:-- I did a bunch of stuff and I'll be honest, I didn't think it was anything different than what everybody else did when I had to go on the stage for Nicholas Ayers and Dave Jackson in 2017 in Florida to 450 people I didn't know from a hole in the ground, except from a chat group. That was scary because I had to go out there and I'm wearing a hockey jersey. Either it's completely garbage and I'm going to get booed off the stage, or it's going to resonate. And it luckily resonated. I'm just happy to be part of the conversation. I'm happy to have some respect in the U.S. and have some great friends. I'm just very fortunate. And you and I are fortunate to meet some of the greatest people in the world in the insurance business. So I just want to thank you, Ryan, for everything you've done and giving me all the opportunities.
--:-- And Jack, I think last time I saw you, was it in North Carolina?
--:-- Jack Wingate: Yeah.
--:-- Jeff Roy: I was down in North Carolina with Aubie Knight, who I think is one of the real heroes and leaders in the industry. I'm a huge Aubie Knight fan.
--:-- Jack Wingate: Yeah, me too.
--:-- Jeff Roy: Great. We have Colin Simpson in Canada that leads the IBO. He's very solid. I think him and Aubie need to get to know each other really well because they're both two guys doing some great things that put the agent and broker first. That's good because we needed more people putting us first. I always say this to everybody: play for the name on the front of the jersey, not the name on the back. So if we can block a little bit of time to help everybody and the rising tide floats all boats, do that. We need more agents to share and contribute and help out. And if we do that, we'll make this the best channel. And if we don't, we continue to not share or try and one up and beat people. Eventually we're going to collectively get beat by somebody smarter, bigger, and with better access to data.
--:-- I used to be worried about banks and insurance. Now I'm worried about Amazon and the big Uber, big people that come in. They actually get the proposition. Lemonade, their IPO went pretty well, doubled in price. I'm not sure if it's valid, but are they going to be the Amazon of insurance? We'll wait and see. Should we be investing some of our money into it right now? I'm starting to think I should have now, but it's hard to say.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Computer bots certainly are—the day trading bots are investing their money in it.
--:-- Jeff Roy: Yeah, sure.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Good. Before we go, I want to jump on your shoulders on Aubie. What I love about Aubie, and I think we have to stand behind guys like Aubie who are willing to take flack. What stands out the most to me about Aubie as an association leader or leader in general in this industry is that he's willing to stand up for agents and take the flack so that we can do our jobs, so that agents can do their jobs. I think there's a lot of people in Aubie's position or positions like Aubie's who maybe—and I'm not saying they're bad people—but they're not as willing to do that. Aubie is one of the few people that are.
--:-- And I think Marit Peters another one down in Texas, Jeff Smith in Ohio, Matt Baniszewski in Wisconsin. These are the individuals who really take a lot of heat in pressing agent issues. I think we need to support them as much as we can.
--:-- Jeff Roy: You talk about the insurance guys at the tip of the spear. Who's one of them? The insurance guy is always the tip of the spear.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Awesome, guys. Thanks very much. I really appreciate it.
--:-- Jack Wingate: Thank you.
--:-- Jeff Roy: I appreciate it, guys. I appreciate your time. Be good. Be safe. And I'll catch you on the flip.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Later, fellas. Hit on record. Hit on record.
--:-- [End of conversation. Podcast advertisement follows.]
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