--:-- Ryan Hanley: Hello everyone and welcome back to the show. Today we have a tremendous guest, someone who has worked inside both carriers and agency technology throughout his entire career, brings a tremendous amount of expertise, someone who I've gotten to know over the last, I'd say online the last few years, gotten to know personally, basically since Rogue launched.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I'm talking to Basilios Manousogiannakis, who is a product owner and client relationship manager for Employers. Employers is a company that I am appointed with. They're a company that I believe in. I love the way they're attacking the market. And as Rogue moves more and more towards a work comp first approach and really diving into workers' compensation as an expertise and becoming more than just a provider of the coverage, but really a true advisor of workers' compensation insurance and everything that goes along with that, Employers is a big part of my future.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Basilios and I have just had some great conversations. He'll call me to see how things are going and we'll end up talking for 45 minutes about all different kinds of things happening in the industry. I wanted to have him on just to talk about Employers and their mindset. I think there's some awesome stuff in here. I absolutely think you're going to enjoy this conversation.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: But before we get to that conversation, I want to give a big shout out to my friends at Better Agency. The team at Better Agency is really changing the game when it comes to insurance specific CRMs and just CRMs in general. I have officially made the move to Better Agency. It's really becoming the first place I log into every day.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Better Agency is the first tool that I log into every day. I go into the tool and start working through whatever tasks I have, communications that have come in overnight, making sure that I have my sales pipeline up to date, that I'm working through my service pipeline. The fact that it connects to Zapier and they're building all kinds of direct integrations all the time, I really believe that Better Agency is on the path to what an insurance agency actually operates like. They're building a tool that matches how they actually operate, not the way that we've kind of had agency management systems forced down our throat, like better versions of the same old mousetrap. I feel like we're constantly given that, and I feel like Better Agency is a better way to run your agency.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I've just really enjoyed the product, and it's an honor that they're a sponsor of this show. Go to betteragency.io. That's betteragency.io. Check them out. Get a demo. Even if you're not in the market for a new CRM system in your agency, it's good to know what this tool does because I have a feeling you're going to be hearing more and more about it, and eventually you're going to want to know. So go get the demo. Know what's out there. If you're in the market, I love using the tool. I just do. It's great that I can both be a user every day with Rogue Risk and have them be a sponsor of the show. It works out really well because I love sharing products with you that I believe in, and I believe in Better Agency. So check out betteragency.io today.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: One last thing before we get on to Basilios, I just want to say thank you for listening to this show. I love you for listening to the show. It has been such a pleasure to roll out episodes on a more consistent basis. Big shout out to Cass and his podcasting service where he helps podcasters get podcasts like this out to the world. If it wasn't for that service, this podcast wouldn't be possible. I just thank you guys. I love you for listening.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: All right, now let's do it. Mr. Hanley, what's going on?
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: Hey, what's up?
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I have just been enamored by the disposition of both of you, and I've really enjoyed our conversations for sure, but of your company in general. Employers feels like one of the companies leading the charge in the idea of coming to the agent, and the consumer for that matter. It feels like you guys are, instead of saying, "I'm going to position this a different way," I think the belief for a long time has been that the carriers made agents come to them. "Here's how we like to do business. Here's our box. If you want to play in this box, that's great. If you don't want to play in this box, then have a nice day, go someplace else."
--:-- Ryan Hanley: It feels very much like you guys are one of the carriers that is starting to say, "Hey, how do you like to play? What is your... you want to play in a circle? We'll help you make a circle. You like triangles? We'll help you build one of those too. That's fine." Maybe I'm off, but that has been my perception of you guys. I just wanted to talk about that in whatever ways you're able to, because I feel like it is the future, and I just wanted to dig into it.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: Definitely appreciate you having us on, having me on. I think you hit it. One of our guiding principles is that we are going to meet our customers wherever they want to transact business. That customer for us could be the agent, could be the business owner, could be the claimant. Customer is a wide spectrum for us, our own employees. We're feeling that now in COVID.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: I wouldn't say gone are the days of saying, "Hey, come to our portal and rate." That still very much drives our engine, but we very much recognize the importance of being omni-channel because our customers are experiencing that in every other aspect of their life. The talk track within the industry kind of lines up with it.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: What I'm really proud of Employers was, in my opinion, and this is one of the many reasons I came to Employers, is because they were leading that charge. In my prior life, I had a short stint with a tech vendor that catered to carriers. I would be on the other side of the table talking with national carriers, regionals, talking about what their strategy is, particularly around digital distribution. A lot of it is, "Yeah, we're talking about it or we're working on it." Employers was like, "Dude, we've been doing this for like two years now." I was kind of taken aback because I always wrote Employers off as a sleepy monoline comp carrier that's not really going to make the move, not going to innovate. I was blindsided, quite honestly, and proved wrong.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: For me, that was eye-opening. I think carriers get a bad rep around how they perceive the agent. I've never been at a carrier where they say the agent isn't relevant. It's always been the agent is relevant. It's just, how do we empower them has been a little bit of a disconnect. With what's happening in our current environment and the capabilities that we have in terms of digital, we are trying our best to empower our agents. At the core of it, our agents are our distribution to our end customer, which is the policy holder. Whatever we can do to power that, we're going to do our best.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: One of the reasons why I was very interested in working with you guys, obviously Rogue is a comp is what we're doing. While COVID is definitely taking its toll on our jumpstart, I see big things for our relationship in the future. I'm very excited about our relationship. Just so everyone listening at home knows, I'm an appointed Employers agency as a monoline comp carrier.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Before I really got into commercial of any substance or really started to dive into comp deeply, I was like, "Why would I want to even think about partnering someone who only writes one product?" Do you feel like your agents get a competitive advantage because you guys are able to dissect? What do you see as the advantage and disadvantages of taking on a carrier that just writes one product? Obviously it's an incredibly important product, there's a lot more to it, I don't mean to diminish it, but versus say the Hartfords and the Travelers who write a huge spectrum of stuff.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: That's a great question. I'll admit that I was guilty of asking the same question. Being on the carrier side, most of my career has been on the carrier side. My biggest blind spot is I've never been an agent, so there are areas that I'm continuing to learn from that perspective. But I had that same question. I've worked with multi-line national carriers out there. I don't want to call it indoctrinated, but I had this mindset of, "Is there really a need for a monoline comp carrier?"
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: What I've learned in my time here at Employers, and it aligns with my own personal philosophy, is you've got to double down on what you do well versus trying to be a jack of all trades. For us, we're going to focus in on this line of business. We're going to be the best at it. We're going to offer up as many relevant solutions to our customers—agents, claimants, policyholders, et cetera—and be best in class. A lot of folks can say that. I've seen it in action first as an outsider and now being an insider.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: In the past 18 months, Ryan, we've released over 20 agency-facing technology solutions. Think of that. That's wild to hear for a carrier to do. Agile is starting to take its place in our industry. I think it's good because it's going to continue to force us to iterate and innovate. Before, it was kind of a waterfall: "Hey, we're going to take this project on and in 18 months, hope it's right." You'd find out on month 18 that you're already outdated.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: It allows us not only from a technology perspective, but from claims handling, from underwriting. We're only doing one line of business, so we can put out a more competitive product with a higher value proposition for workers comp. The testament there is for us, in the midst of a crisis, we are having record-breaking months in terms of quotes and buying. That to me is not the end all be all, but a testament itself. There is a consistent need for monoline comp carriers out there. If there wasn't, I don't think that would be happening, and the multi-line carriers would continue to capture that space.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I have definitely found, and I'm continuing to find, and I don't want to act like I've been doing this for 30 years, but I have found that in focusing on comp more and really learning the product and starting to get a feel for where certain things go, the comp to me is almost a separate thing than the rest of the package. I think a lot of people think of it as part of the package or the BOP or your package policy, then you have your auto, and you try to put all that with the same carrier. I don't even look at it that way anymore. That thought doesn't even cross my mind.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: The first thing that always comes to my mind is, where does the comp go? What is this class of business? Who wants this? Who's going to be the best fit? Who's got the best pricing for this particular line of business? Who's going to be willing to work with them? I look at that first, and then the rest of the business kind of falls into place.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: There are more and more harbingers of quality comp work that are starting to speak up. David Carruthers is a big one. Mike McDonough in California is another big one. Tom Tams in Minnesota is another big one. These are voices that are starting to talk to why agents in general need to take comp more seriously. I think this will be an idea that over the next few years really permeates our industry, giving comp its due. It certainly wasn't taught to me that way. The way it was taught to me was you just rate it with whoever, and whoever you'd write the BOP with is who you write the comp with, and that's end of story. I just don't think that's the answer. I don't think that's the right thing for your customers.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: Listen, I might be biased, but comp is protecting the business's most important asset, and that's its people and its employees. The business ceases to exist without them. I completely agree. There's a little bit of bias on my end because I'm with a monoline comp carrier, but I've always believed that. That's part of the reason I'm here at this company. People first, everything else follows. You want to make sure that when your employee is injured on the job, they're getting the best in class service because it won't necessarily reflect upon the agent to that claim holder. It's going to reflect upon who they work for. If they have a bad experience with the carrier, they're not going to say, "Oh, the carrier ruined it for me or the agent ruined it for me." It's going to be, "Mr. and Mrs. Boss, what the heck? I'm working for you and you're not taking care of me."
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah. "My cheap ass boss won't pay for the good insurance, and now I'm getting around." I completely agree. You had mentioned that you guys have rolled out 20 agent-facing technologies or agent-supporting technologies. Are you able to talk about what some of them are, just to give people an idea? What does that mean? I think there's probably a lot of people listening that are like, "What does that even mean?" Because the bar for what agents expect is so low. Most of them are, "Oh hey, we refaced our portal," or "We moved our portal, you can now log into our portal with a web browser that was made in the 2000s." The bar is very low. Some of the things that I see you guys doing are cutting edge technology. Anything or any capabilities that you're willing to talk about, I'm super interested in sharing with the audience.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: I think there's quite a bit that we could share. Some of it is what you hit on. We just had to do a refresh. One of the key drivers for us is how do we create a quoting experience for our customers that delights them and build it off of user and agency feedback. One thing that Employers does really well that I have yet to see with other carriers, and this is not meant to be a knock, is we sit down with our agents twice a year across all geographies. You're talking 50-ish meetings happening twice a year where we're asking them, "Hey, what's working well? Where are you getting stuck as an agent? What do we capitalize on?" Then we hold that meeting six months later, and that's our moment of truth. "Did we actually do anything with what you told us to do?" That's what we build a lot of our technology and our innovation around.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: One of the key things they were telling us is, "Listen, Employers, you've got to be able to send us a quote back quicker than you currently do with a heck of a lot less information. I want a yes as quickly as possible or a no as quickly as possible." I don't think that's uncommon across the industry. We spent a ton of time focusing on revamping our agency and our quoting portal to do just that. What historically took an agent 20 minutes to quote with us can now be done in anywhere from 20 seconds to two minutes. Within the API world, six to eight seconds. That's one of the key things.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: Where we're focusing a lot of our efforts is investing in technologies that we're not necessarily building. One partner that we both work with is Tarmica, a multi-carrier rating platform really focused on streamlining small business for the agent so they can focus on the right carrier, right coverage, while improving that profit margin that continues to deteriorate in small business. One of our core principles there is not only are we wanting to offer our agents choice in insurance coverage, but also choice in technology solutions. There are others out there that we partner with as well. Not every agent is the same. What might work well for Rogue Risk in Tarmica may not work well for an agent down the street. They might see another solution out there. We want to make sure, and this goes back to what we referenced earlier, we're meeting our customers where they want to do business. That's critically important with us.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: We rolled out multiple API integrations. We updated our appetite checker to do some really slick things within the quoting process. It's a wide spectrum of what we're doing in terms of agency-facing solutions, whether it's quoting, self-service capabilities, post-buying stuff, payment plans. It's all about trying to meet our customers where and how they want to do business.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I love that. I'll say the Employers rating platform for comp is probably the best in the business right now. It's super easy. It kicks you out early if it's not a good risk. That is probably the worst part of rating systems. There is a company that I took on, it's the last full spectrum carrier that I took on that I hate. I hate it. I have nothing against the carrier, but it takes me like seven screens to figure out whether or not they're going to write it or not. The other part is it'll go all the way through, give you a quote, and then have the last thing be "referred to underwriter." You've just spent 40 minutes plugging all this nonsensical information into the system, hit "refer to underwriter," and then you'll get some random underwriter that you don't even know who will be like, "Declined." You're like, "Oh my god, if I could reach through the screen and strangle that human being right now, I would do it for a couple seconds, at least try not to leave a mark." I would do it just to get you because I just spent 40 minutes. You could have told me on the very first screen, "Hey, we don't really write that class. Sorry, man." You could have said that. You didn't. You waited until an email a day later after 45 minutes of quoting.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: That concept keeps me away from writing business. I actually told them, the marketing rep called me and said, "Hey, how's it going?" She said, "We were hoping for a little more production out of you." I said, "To be honest with you, I'm hitting my agency numbers. I just can't. I hate using your system. I hate it. I absolutely hate it. That's why you don't get business from me." She's like, "What? Agents love our system." I said, "That's not true. You are lying to me right now because I can give you the name of six other carriers whose system is way better."
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Long story short, with Employers, you can tell someone thought through the process and you can tell that you got feedback from agents because it does work in a very logical way, which is nice. What do you think it is about Employers or just the industry in general that you guys have this mentality or belief system of getting out into these different spaces? A lot of times the thought process before would be, "Well, if you're with a Tarmica, then you could never be with a SEMC or a Bold Penguin or one of the others. We're going to pick one and that's the one we're going to work with." The problem is an agency could, because of their agency management system or some other thing, maybe they just can't get to that product, and now they don't have that functionality. I feel like it is a fairly unique belief structure for you guys to be very Switzerland-esque in your integration with other companies. What is it about your culture or what you guys are trying to do?
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: I think you just hit on it right there. It's our culture. That was really driven, and I'm going to plug a good friend of mine, Brian Falchek, he highlights this in his book "Future of Insurance." It was really driven from the top down. Our senior leaders prior to my time really doubled down on this mentality. Our CEO had to make sure that all the leaders that he brought on board bought into that vision.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: Part of it is also, we are a comp carrier, so we have to get creative about how we get to the customer and how we get to our agents. It's not the first thing that every business owner thinks of. We need to insert ourselves in a relevant decision or relevant buying event. It may be the traditional process of working through an agent. It may be powered by an agent with a direct consumer kind of channel. We're willing to take that risk on because we recognize there's going to be winners in this space, and we want to be there when those winners happen. We also recognize the risk of maybe partnering with some that might not take off or they get acquired, so we have to make sure that we're there in the moment.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: At the end of the day, it comes back to our culture, believing in recognizing what's happening in our environment today. We can no longer continue to do business the way we've done historically. Our customers at its core—the policyholders, claimants, business owners—are so used to doing business in other aspects of their life. They're not going to go, "Oh, I'm about to go buy insurance, I totally expect it's going to be rough on me." It might be the case, but it doesn't justify it anymore. We can't make that painful. That for us is important, to meet our agents and our customers wherever they're going to do business.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: I heard a while back someone say, "You meet one agent, you've met all agents." I could say that's the furthest from the truth. We've got to make sure that our solutions meet every agent and their unique needs.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: That is probably the thing that has changed the most in my mentality over the course of my career. When I first started speaking, say since I first started interacting with our agencies about a decade ago, obviously this year I'm not doing speaking gigs which kind of hurts my heart because I love doing it, but this would have been 10 years since my first gig was 2010 in San Francisco. The biggest thing that has changed from that moment to this moment is what you just said. 10 years ago, I said to myself, "I don't understand insurance agencies. Why aren't we all operating through the best practices and doing these things?" Because you could give someone the answer to a question and they would look at you and be like, "That doesn't work for me." At the time I would say to myself, "Then you're the problem." What I've learned is that's not necessarily true.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: There are so many levers in an agency. You can put two digital agencies next to each other, they run completely different. Old school local agencies, they run completely different. Carriers, technology, people, just where you're physically located. All these things, the state you're in. I'm 12 minutes from the Vermont border, 25 minutes from the Massachusetts border, and maybe 35 minutes from Connecticut. If you do the classic 50-mile radius around my agency, I technically have four states that I can pull from. All these different aspects.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: To the technologists, to the carriers, and to the vendors that are serving the agency force, I think that's one of the key thoughts. You've really brought up two key thoughts: this idea of meeting your customers where they are, and that every agency is actually different and needs to be able to integrate your solution in the way that fits them. That's how you get in. If you create friction, you don't get in.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: There is power behind consistency. I think that where some of the old school thought comes from, there was the running joke when I was back in my underwriting days: you put 10 underwriters in a room, you're going to get 10 different decisions. Technology is allowing that decision to become more consistent. But you're still talking everyone's unique. They operate in a different way. Again, my blind spot is I've never been an agent, but at the same time, I imagine you want to present and provide a unique value proposition because if every agent was the same, there wouldn't be 30-some-odd thousand agencies out there.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: The underwriter thing, I'm interested in your take having been one. I tend to gravitate towards human underwriters. When the machines do too much underwriting, it really limits the value proposition. I'll give you a case in point. I have an account that I'm working on. It's about 5.7 million in building value. It's an LRO. I'm working with the building owner, and I'm working through this case. The computer gave me a number, and I knew that wasn't the number I needed. I needed it to be a little bit lower. There were companies that would go, "Nope, that's the number. Have a nice day." Then there are companies like, I ultimately went with a New York Central Mutual, and I'm working with them. I called my underwriter, we're on the phone for like an hour, talking about the building. I'm sending her pictures of the building, talking about these different things.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I was like, "This guy's been on this building for 10 years. They have one $3,000 loss that is making the machine push the rate up, but the machine doesn't know that he fixed the roof and now ice dams aren't a problem anymore." She comes back and goes, "Okay, I'm okay taking the IRPM from this to this." A machine couldn't do that for me. I needed to talk to an underwriter. I'm going to start going to them more because I know not just price, but the idea that I can actually pitch an account and say, "Look, this looks like something you don't like, but really this thing is never going to happen again because they've done this thing over here." I can't tell the computer that.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Do you see the need for the human underwriting still? Do you see it coming back? Do you ever see there being a renaissance to a certain extent, or is it only going to get more machine driven? Does that make sense?
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: I think I follow. My personal perspective, I can't speak for others, is I've shared this in other forums. It's the same kind of opinion that I have for our agency partners. We're bringing in technology to empower agents to have more human interaction. Some of the challenges that we see on the agency side are the same challenges our underwriting partners were having. They're spending too much time on the administrative or legacy processes that are prohibiting them from really focusing in on what you highlighted.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: Let's sit down with the agent. Let's talk about pre-qualification, why this risk is right. And then let the technology take some of that work off my desk. Then we can have that discussion like, "Hey, let's reevaluate this." Versus right now, a lot of it is like, "Hey, I've got to go in and manually rate. I've got to go and pull in different resources." So I wholly believe that technology is only going to improve our industry as a whole because it's going to allow us to become humans again and advisors again, if that makes sense.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yes, it makes sense. 100%. I don't know if you listened to the show, but I had the CEO of Zywave on because Zywave is building out this tool called MyEdge. I think it's kind of a best-in-class tool. It is unbelievably cool. And the vision, the kind of the vision is even cooler. It really is. And just so everyone knows, I pay for it. I don't get paid for this. This isn't a Zywave advertisement. I paid for the tool, but I dropped Insurance X-States for MyEdge. I just see what they're doing. It's amazing.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: What I said to Jason, because he asked me something—I don't know if I've said this on the show or if it were after—but I just said, "Dude, why can't I just push a button and all this ridiculously stupid information?" I consider it stupid when a carrier says to me, "Your building was built in 1985. When was the electrical done? 2014?" And you're going to fight me on that? We're going to go check and see if it was 2012 or when was it? It's a stupid question to ask you because at some point there needs to be—this is when frontline underwriting used to matter. I'm looking at the building and I'm telling you it could be 2014 or 2010 or 2018. The wiring in the building is fine. The wiring is not a problem.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Why then do I have to—do you think that I'm ever even going to ask the owner of a $6 million building, "Hey man, when was your plumbing last done?" And he's going to go, "Really? We're talking about the plumbing? That's what we're talking about right now?" Like we're not talking about some of the things that actually matter and could actually cause losses. If a gasket bursts, a gasket bursts, but he didn't redo the plumbing since the building was built ever. No one ever does that. So why can't we just—and this is what I said to Jay—I go, "The day that there's just a button for stupid information, we can call it the Stupid Information Button. We just go flip it and it just sucks all that information into the system."
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Now what I can do is instead of those silly questions, I could jump on the phone for five minutes with my underwriter on every single account and say, "Here's why I think you should write this." Or, "Hey, just give me a regular price for this because I don't even really want this one, but I do think it's important that I get a quote from you." Or, "Let's go get this one. What can we do? What do you need from me to go get this account? This is one I really want. There's some long tail value for us here. Let's do that." Cut the form for nonsensical information. There's important information too, but these databases and being able to pull this stuff in—I wish I could talk to my underwriter on every account, but it's impossible when you're spending 45 minutes collecting nonsensical information. Like, how far away is the building from a fire hydrant? That piece of information is available online. There's no reason for a human to have to transfer that onto an Acord form and then send that Acord form to someone. There's just no reason for that.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: Yeah, no, I can't debate that. I mean, we were at an Applied Net event, we were actually on a panel talking about this. Like, do you think our customers really know when their electrical was updated? They might, but they're of the opinion like, "Hey, you tell me. You go get it. It should be out there. Why don't you go get it?" So with solutions like what you talked about—historically, the underwriters had to go out and manually pull all this information. So as this gets better, I'm very bullish that we're going to really key in on being advisors and having the discussions that you talked about.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: That was what I loved most about my job when I was out in the field underwriting and meeting with my agency partners. It's, "Okay, hey, let's go get business together." Because that underwriter has that local knowledge, should know it more intimately, and so they can bring that value back to the agent saying, "Hey, I'm part of this church. Have you guys approached the board? If not, let's talk about this. This is something I want to write." I think more of those discussions are going to start to happen.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, I agree with you. I would love to have just tighter relationships with my underwriters. For some of the carriers, it's developing. Obviously, I've been in six months, as you go, you develop. But I just think that is the key. And so many agents miss that. So many don't even know who their underwriter is. And I'll tell you, the companies that give you the random rolling underwriter—not that that model doesn't work, but I will say there's a disconnect there that makes it tough. It doesn't mean you need to talk to the same person every time, but it's nice to have a point person, or a standard point of contact, or a strong marketing rep connection who you can go to and say, "Here's what I'm trying to get done. Who do I need to talk to?" And they can point you. But when you've got to call a phone tree to get to your underwriter and it's like, "Dial one for sales," and it's like, "Sales? I need to talk to somebody about an account." And then you start pressing zero—isn't there a Seinfeld episode or something where you start hitting zero hoping you get an operator?
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Okay, so from where you sit, and I know you're involved in a lot of these projects and you're dealing with agencies and stuff too, what do you see coming? When you just forecast out, pick whatever idea is the most interesting to you. There's no real agenda to this question other than I'm just interested as a carrier, working for a carrier, the unique kind of situation you're in with the culture you guys have. You have your fingers out. I know people are coming and talking to you. I know you're talking to other people. Nothing specific, just what are some of the bigger ideas or ideas that you see coming down the pipe that people should either think are cool or start to prepare for?
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: Yeah, man, that's a loaded question. Wow. I'll kind of speak through one lens, and that's just because we live and breathe it every day with what we're doing here at Employers in alternative distribution. I think we're going to see more and more—and I wouldn't say this isn't surprising, but the current environment, COVID, has really fast-tracked a lot of this. We're going to see more and more agents wanting to create and control digital experiences, not only just from acquiring customers. Because at the end of the day, insurance will continue to be relationship-based and local. A lot of times when you talk to an agent, it's, "Hey, that's my relationship. That's my client." So how can we expand that?
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: One of those ways for us to do that is to support you in creating—agents have started to get really good at digital marketing and social media in pockets. The disconnect that we're seeing is, once you send them or get them to your page or whatever you're landing on, you're giving them the old school lead gen page, right? Like, "And then I hope and a prayer someone calls you back or emails you back to say, 'Hey, let's talk more.'" So I think in the short term, there's going to be a lot of focus on creating digital storefronts, or creating a buying experience where that customer, once they find you on the internet somehow—whether it's through SEM, SEO, affiliate marketing—and they end up at your website or your experience, they can go even further than just leaving their name and address or phone number or email to get a call back. It will be now like, "Hey, I can answer a few questions, get a quote, or even bind it or even pay for it."
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: I think even longer term, you'll see more of that transition into the post-buying and servicing aspect—endorsements, things like that—where the agent can continue to focus on what we talked about: getting out on the streets, meeting with their clients, advising, being human, empathizing when those claims come in, and being able to really focus on the important pieces of the business versus getting bogged down on historically what's been legacy systems and processes.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Between this podcast interview and a call I had with another agent, we were talking about when I was looking at his website. He's relatively new, and he forces his clients through a few paths that allow him to—I was asking him why he forced them to do it so specifically. Things like certificate requests and some of the things that they can do self-service—all service requests need to come through a certain portal. It was mobile friendly and stuff too, so it wasn't like you're limiting them to having to come to their computer, but it did force them down a process. I said to him, "How has that worked for you?" And he said, "What it allowed by forcing them to do the transactional things the way we need them done, we're able to spend more time doing the relationship things with them."
--:-- Ryan Hanley: That's how he positions it. He says, "Look, I know it's easier for you to just text me a VIN number and say, 'Hey, can you make this change?' But what happens for us is that takes so much time and effort. Things get lost. Numbers get—it's hard. If you can just go to this page, input the information the way we ask, then we can spend more time making sure it's right. Making sure that everything's taken care of." I'm not doing his pitch justice, but that idea of creating a digital experience a certain way in the effort to free up the relationship and human side of the business—I fully agree with you. I couldn't agree more that that is a big part of our future.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I'll say this again too. I have thoroughly enjoyed the relationship that you and I have started to build, and I'm looking forward to doing more and more business with Employers. I think deeper connections to our carriers is another big part of it. Being discerning about those relationships. I took on a relationship and I freaking regret it because it's a pain in the ass. But there are other relationships where I'm like, "God, if they were all like this, it would be amazing." I think investing in—and there are carriers that are coming our way. As agents, I hope that we're listening. We start to invest in the carriers that are coming our way. That's part of the reason I wanted to have you guys on, because I think you guys are a great example of a carrier that's doing the work to come to agents. You're versus making us come all the way to you. You're starting to close that ground. I hope more carriers learn from that because it's nice. It really is, and it helps, and it makes a difference. It's noticed.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: Yeah, no, well, we appreciate it. I can't take credit for it. It's really the folks before me that laid the foundation—the Doug Dirks of the world, the Ray Wise, the folks at the senior leadership level. This is more like the insurance nerd in me, but it's just fascinating to even think about the Employers' journey. 20 years ago, we were just a state fund for Nevada. Our CEO steps in—I think as a KPMG consultant—discovers that, "Hey, we are bleeding close to $2 billion, and we're going to go and solve it in a matter of weeks, if not days." And now transforming it into a publicly traded national carrier that is very much a technology-first thinking kind of company. Just kudos to everyone in the Employers family that made that happen.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: At the end of the day for us, Ryan, our core principle with what we want to do is we want to empower our agents. I think where some folks get concerned is, "Is the carrier trying to disrupt me? Are they trying to circumvent me?" Our core principle, and you'll hear this across the board from our senior leaders, is we will continue to roll out technologies, services, solutions that will empower our agents to provide better service for our customers.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I think you're on it, man. I hope everyone listening to this was really dialed into the language that you used. It's what we need. This is the future of what relationships look like from a carrier and agency perspective in our industry. I think the carriers that continue to make agents bridge the whole expanse of the gap between them are going to start to struggle. Agents are going to start to shy away from them. Look, some of them have so much premium, maybe they don't care, but I'll say a line that I heard the other day: "There are a lot of organizations that are losing so slowly they think they're winning." I think COVID and technology, 5G, more automated processes, more telematics—even though I don't necessarily believe in telematics—things like that. I think these things are rapidly changing the game. I don't know that three to five years from now we will be able to look up and I don't think you'll be able to lose so slow you think you're winning. I think you'll know. The lesson there is there are things you can do.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: Yeah, no, I mean, I definitely believe in that. I'm just very bullish on insurance in our industry and continue to be.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: You've done—you let me do most of the talking. I'm going to throw some questions back. We can do like a rapid fire.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: Oh yeah, sure, go ahead.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Personal fun questions. Some of the folks that might be listening might not be as familiar with you, so let's close it out with a little bit of fun. I'm going to steal this idea from Adam B., who's our social media manager. Some of it is kind of serious, personal fun questions. So, who or what would you say has helped shape you into the person you are today?
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: Wow. That's a big one. I'd say I was blessed with two very loving parents. Neither one perfect, but incredibly loving. I was blessed in so much as I got to see what that looks like. That was nice. And then I was blessed with a lot of really good sports coaches. Sports really shaped me into who I am. I had some old school blue collar coaches—cigar smoking on third base, the big burly football coach who would literally take you on in no pads and you're in full gear in high school and knock you down kind of guys. They really taught me. I was blessed to learn very early what it was like to get knocked down and then have that same person reach down with their hand and pick you back up and say, "Hey, just keep going." I think sports and being pretty lucky on the parents have really shaped me into the type of person I am.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: That's awesome. What's something you're curious about right now, inside or outside of insurance, personal or professional?
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: Right now, I'm really into nootropics and brain hacking. I would say I'm in early stages of research. About three years ago, I took a deep dive into inflammation and living an anti-inflammatory life. I fall off that horse sometimes, but I know how to get back on now, which is very good, because inflammation is basically the root cause of our death. Limiting inflammation prolongs our life and our happiness and our mood and a lot of really good things. I've started reading a book by Ben Greenfield called *Boundless*. It is an enormous book. It is a pretty incredible book. That's what I'm geeking out on now when I'm not doing insurance or my family—how to hack my brain for better focus, for more creativity, for more energy, that kind of stuff. Professionally, there's so much going on. I don't know that I have a thing that I could share professionally.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Very cool. All right, and the last one. I feel like everyone asks this in insurance or any other job. What profession other than your own would you like to attempt?
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: That's a good question. My 10-year-old self would say I always wanted to be a baseball player. That's a very kind of trite answer to a certain extent, but I really, really, really love the nuances of that game. I just loved it. I would love to coach it. Maybe not even a player because I was never good enough, but I would love to still be in sports somehow. I wish that I was involved. I feel so strongly about what they do. I feel unfortunately like a lot of the social unrest that we currently are dealing with is because sports have been corrupted in many ways to not necessarily be what they are and teach the lessons that they taught me, I guess. Maybe that's just my perspective, but I would love that.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: Otherwise, dude, I just love working in teams. I can't wait till Rogue has a team. I miss working in teams. When I got to work at Agency Nation and manage a team and lead a team, that was some of the most fun days I've ever had in work—just battling with people to get the most out of them. How do you take this person and provide them with the environment and the encouragement and the tools and whatever it is that they need, whatever their fuel is? How do I get that to them so that they can be their best version of themselves as often as they're capable of being? That part of leadership to me is enthralling. I could read and talk about that all day because I find that to be interesting. The industry is far less important, I guess, than it is. I love watching someone light up and just come up with something, even if it feels trivial, but just figuring something out and seeing that look on their face. You're like, "Yes, I love that they got there." I think that's awesome.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, I hear you. Cool, man. Well, that was really it. I just kind of figured I'd give you some time since you let me do most of the talking. Most of the time I'm answering the questions, I'm just blabbing, so that's fun.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: No, I appreciate you doing that.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Well, dude, hey, thank you for coming on. We bounced around a lot on getting this one. I feel like both of our schedules—whether it was you or it was me—we were always kind of canceling on each other, which is fine. It's just funny. But I'm glad we finally got it done. I really enjoyed it. We went to a bunch of places. You gave us some tremendous stuff. I'm happy that you and I have started to get to know each other. I've really enjoyed the conversations that we have. I look forward to the future. I'm very happy and honored to be partnered with Employers as one of your agents. I'm looking forward to the future. Thanks, man. I appreciate it.
--:-- Basilios Manousogiannakis: Yeah, likewise. We are excited to have you as part of the Employers family. Also, I was tired of hearing about this Ryan Hanley guy when we run around in the same circles. I was like, "All right, we've got to figure out a way to get in front of this dude." So really appreciate it.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Thanks, man. Be good.
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