RHS 068 - The Great and Powerful Chris Paradiso

Ryan Hanley: In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home... Hello everyone and welcome back to the show. Today, we have someone who has been a friend, a mentor, someone I've looked up to, someone who I have tried in many ways to model my agency after on the show. He doesn't do a lot of podcasts and to have him take time out of what I know is a busy day to spend time with us, it's a true honor to share with you today, Chris Paradiso.

Ryan Hanley: Before we get to Chris, just a couple quick announcements. Head on over to ParadisoPresents.com. That's ParadisoPresents.com and pick up a copy of The Last Agent Standing magazine. You're going to get experience, insights, articles, thought leadership from some of the best and brightest in our industry, and all the proceeds from the magazine go to charity. This is the fifth edition that Chris has put out. Each edition keeps getting more dynamic, keeps getting thicker, and you won't be disappointed in what you get in exchange for a few bucks that go to a good cause.

Ryan Hanley: Also, I want to give a shout out to Tarmika. That's T-A-R-M-I-K-A dot com. You may have heard of Tarmika. You may have seen some of the posts in social media. You may have heard a few people talking about it. I certainly talk about Tarmika a lot. You do not want to miss this part of the insurance digital revolution. Tarmika is an API-based commercial lines comparative rater. They're also going to be coming out with personal lines.

Ryan Hanley: And you may be saying to yourself, Ryan, there's plenty of raters out there. Why do I need another rater? The answer is the workflow and the APIs. You've heard the term APIs, and there are competitors of Tarmika who will say they have APIs. They don't. What APIs give you is exact numbers. They give you real bindable quotes that you can take to the bank when you're talking to a client on the phone. I mean, that's exactly how I use this tool. When small business and main street accounts call in or I get them on the phone, I am literally just answering the questions inside of Tarmika as I'm with them on the phone and getting quotes back on the phone. Tarmika makes small commercial profitable.

Ryan Hanley: You do not want to miss this tool. Go to T-A-R-M-I-K-A dot com today. Sign up. Get the demo. Know what they're all about. I'm telling you there's a lot of agents starting to circle around that small business world that used to just be heavy personal lines and it's there for you. This makes small commercial profitable. Go to T-A-R-M-I-K-A dot com, sign up, get the demo, and just change the game for your agency. So that's what I do. You can do it. You don't have to do it. If you don't do it, it just gives more opportunity to the agents that are using Tarmika.

Ryan Hanley: All right, with that, let's get on to Chris Paradiso. Yo, dude. How you doing? Founding a pavement or what?

Chris Paradiso: Trying to, man. Trying to make that paper.

Ryan Hanley: Yeah, that's all we're all trying to do, right?

Chris Paradiso: Yeah. I'm just tired of dealing with State Farm trying to insure people at $200,000 when they're, you know, you ain't got no $200,000 houses around here. A 3,000 square foot house for $198,000 in coverage with $100,000 liability. You just shake your head.

Ryan Hanley: I just dealt with this yesterday, so it's literally the same exact thing. Was it State Farm again?

Chris Paradiso: Yeah, State Farm and Allstate both. He's with State Farm, got quotes from Allstate. He's buying a house and I had his auto with State Farm. He's like, "Yeah, they're quoting me at $465." And this is like a 3,000 square foot house built in the 1800s, a two-family. There's double everything in the house. It's this huge colonial. All the estimators are coming in at $760 at a minimum. You try to talk to him and he's looking at you with eyes crossed. I'm like, "Dude, I've done this like 10,000 times. This is not a $400,000 house. You're not going to get half your house back."

Chris Paradiso: Finally I said to him, "So are you buying this? Are you expecting the income that you get from the rental side of this house to help you pay for your mortgage?" He said, "Yeah, it's the only way I'll be able to afford it." I said, "Okay, so if there's a fire, you're not going to have that anymore. It'll be over, but you'll still have the same mortgage. How do you feel about that?" And he's quote unquote "thinking about it," but some people you're better off letting run.

Ryan Hanley: Yeah. There's a part of me that says, the Ryan of working for the Murray Group would have gone, "Hey man, do what you gotta do. Call me back if you want it." The starving Ryan of Rogue Risk days is like, "Bro, please just listen to me for the love of God."

Chris Paradiso: Yeah. And it's funny. This is a guy that I've known for some time. He's a foreigner, real good dude. We insure his FedEx contracting unit. I shake my head saying, "Hey dude, do what you gotta do." We got beat on the auto. He's had accident after accident. They don't run credit. Unfortunately, we're $200 more on the house. You're saying you're saving $190. You're underinsured by $200,000. The liability at ours is $600. You're at $100. Your hurricane deductible is at $14,000. We're at zero. Our deductible is at $1,000. They're at $5,000. It's black and white. I'm like, "Dude, save $191. You're going to cut all that coverage. It's crazy." I said, "But you got to do what you got to do."

Ryan Hanley: The hard part is, is it worth it? Is it worth a hundred dollars? It isn't.

Chris Paradiso: Well, and then that is the person who, when there's a loss and they're coming out of their pocket $14,000 because a storm hits Connecticut again, is going to go, "Insurance is a scam. Why would you want..." And it's like, if you want your stuff back...

Ryan Hanley: You know what I say to all my friends? Every once in a while, your non-insurance friends will start to bitch at you about insurance, right? Like, "Hey, Chris, why do they da-da-da-da-da?" And I'm like, "Bro, if you have a fire in your house, I'm not coming over to fix the fire. I'm not doing that. I'm going to be sad for you. You can come over and have a meal at my house, but I'm not grabbing my hammer and we're not raising the house again. That's not happening. I don't even know how to do that."

Chris Paradiso: The only entity that's going to make sure your house exists again is the insurance company. That's it. That's the only entity. The bank's not coming to help you. Your parents aren't coming to help you. It's fact. And it drives me nuts because they look at you and they're like, "Whoa, that makes sense. But hey, can you give me some cheaper rates?" I'm like, "Bro, I get it." But what do you do?

Ryan Hanley: A little different for me than it is for you. I get where you're from. I was there and I would have fought and fought and fought. And I'm at the point I'm like, "Dude, for a hundred dollars, go. You want to save the money." I think he'll either say, "That's crazy. You're going to just let me go?" Because it's crazy that you're going to cut all that coverage for $191. You're smarter than that.

Chris Paradiso: Yeah. It's hard because there's a part of me that says doing that for that... Let's say you were to match that for that person. Let's say you were to raise all the deductibles and do all the stuff and get that $190 back for him by matching all the coverages, even though it's not right for them. I feel like there's a big part of me that says we're not doing our job by doing that. We are.

Ryan Hanley: So, I had this happen, and this is the last—we don't need to tell war stories because everyone listening has experienced this a thousand times—but I had this woman. I wrote her a Guard homeowner's insurance policy in New York now. It's a good policy. It's solid.

Chris Paradiso: I heard that. Yeah, it's super solid.

Ryan Hanley: So I quoted her up. I never, ever quote a homeowner's insurance policy less than $500,000 in liability. If I can get it, I'll just put a million on because most of the time we're talking about dollars. The difference between $500,000 and $300,000 in liability was $12.

Chris Paradiso: That's what we see. A dollar a month.

Ryan Hanley: So she comes back to me. She is beating the crap out of me. She wants $300,000 liability. She's saying $500,000 is too much. I go, "Too much for what? It's a dollar a month. What does it matter to you?" I actually said to her, "It sounds like it's offending you that I want you to take five minutes." She's taking it as like a personal thing. I'm like, "I'm just saying, if you have a really bad day, it's a dollar a month." Nope. Had to have her initial and sign off on everything. That's the beauty of e-sign—you can put the initials right by the coverage amount.

Chris Paradiso: Yeah. We do the same.

Ryan Hanley: I couldn't believe it. A dollar a month. She's like, "Nope, I want $300,000 liability." I'm like, "Okay."

Chris Paradiso: I had a guy, a prison guard. His son was a senior, went to school. He toughened up, ended up being now still a ranger, but went to school. He was just tired of his bully. The bully picked on him on the wrong day. He cleaned his clock and the bully broke his collarbone and sued him. The homeowners covered all the legal costs and medical. It was just shy under $500,000. Back then we had them with Hartford where they had the full $100,000 where it automatically doubled, so it's $800,000. We have plenty of coverage. But there's a perfect example. That person at $300,000 would have been over $100,000 plus out of their own pocket. And whoever thought a homeowner's policy would cover your kid who went to school and tagged a bully? But it does.

Ryan Hanley: That's always the crazy part—the expanse of things that the liability on your homeowners actually covers. The vast majority of horrible things that can happen in your everyday life are covered by your homeowners liability, and people just completely disregard it.

Chris Paradiso: Yeah. You come across these Allstate and State Farm policies with $100,000 in liability. Nothing against our captive brothers and sisters that do this work, but you're better than that.

Ryan Hanley: Well, dude, I didn't have you come on here to tell horror stories of people trying to buy insurance from us. You invited me and I was very honored to participate in an in-person mastermind a few weeks ago. I thought that was absolutely tremendous. There were so many interesting topics that came out of there. You being the kind of spearheading—I know it was Tom Larson's idea initially, but you kind of spearheaded getting everyone together and had it out at Tarmika's headquarters. We had some tremendous agents there. I left there going, there's so many things that you have your hands in. As your agency has evolved and your career has evolved, there's so much of this industry that you've been a part of. I just wanted to get you on here and pepper you with a bunch of different topics and share some of your perspectives. From where I sit, you are really dialed in to where we're going as an industry.

Chris Paradiso: It doesn't mean I'm going to be right, but I hope so.

Ryan Hanley: One of the caveats of this show is being right has nothing to do with the things that we say. So that's not a precursor. But you've been right about a lot.

Chris Paradiso: I think it's all who you surround yourself with. I'm very fortunate to have some incredible people who are quiet behind the scenes. You would never know—like the Bob McCools. The average person doesn't know, the average agent doesn't know. But those that know Bob McCool, he's like Frank Setner. The guy is just dialed in with what's going on. That's the key—can you surround yourself with people like Mike Stansberry, another guy who's got a big stick but he's quiet about it. There's some big sticks that are very quiet that are just tremendous minds. That's the key—how do you get the right people in the room? That's one of the things that I want to do out there at Mike's office, because Mike loves getting people like that together. Mike is tremendous out in Tennessee. Different minds work differently from the East coast all the way over to the West coast. It's just so different.

Ryan Hanley: Yeah. I have a couple of guys that I talk to on the West coast about their business. The country that is now California has basically separated itself from the United States and operates as its own independent organization. The whole methodology, the pace, the thought process is definitely different. That extends throughout the Midwest, which is its own region. You go down South, completely different. I think that's one of the things that when I come across agents that are struggling in general, there's some standard stuff that we all struggle with. You got to write business, you got to get in front of people. That stuff seems pretty easy to figure out if you apply yourself. But the agents that hit that plateau and can't get past it, it seems to me that a lot of that stems from staying in their cocoon. They don't interact with other agents. They're not reaching out into different communities or different parts of the country.

Ryan Hanley: How have you started to do that? We've known each other for at least 10, maybe more years. I've watched your network continue to grow and the people you've surrounded yourself with. Is that just natural to you, or did you get advice from someone? How have you kind of grown your network over time? What kind of things do you look for? How do you do it?

Chris Paradiso: The interesting thing is, I would say Bob McCool has been an influencer to me. Bob had always said, if you do one thing every single year besides go outside the industry to get valuable information for running your business—marketing and things of that sort—the one thing that you can do is get into at least two agencies a year. Take one day each, two days, whatever you can get, and really see how other agencies run, because everyone runs so vastly different.

Chris Paradiso: What I think we don't do well is really invite agencies in and start a group in the sense that we're sharing from step to step to step and then fine-tuning things. Listening to, "Hey, you were in here saying this one step, what if you thought about doing it this way? This is how we do it." I think that's probably the key component on extending my relationships—asking others if it would be okay if I could come and spend a day and kind of pick their brains.

Chris Paradiso: There's two things I like to do. Number one is really to find out what you did wrong, Ryan. I don't care who it is. Every agency owner has done things wrong. To find out what you did wrong and do you have a solution of why and what you would change? Because I think we all end up making very similar mistakes. Why should we not ask to learn from others? Bob had always said, make sure you ask to find out what successful people do when they fail, how they failed, why they failed, because successful people are usually going to realize and look in the mirror and say, "I failed because of this, this, and this." That can save you. What I know at 47, I only wish I knew at 27 because I would have changed a lot of things and grown my agency a lot faster. Unfortunately, I made those mistakes.

Chris Paradiso: I think that's the key on building relationships within the industry—really giving back. You can't just ask, "Hey, Ryan, can I come to your agency?" You also got to invite and invite and invite. I can't tell you how many hundreds of agencies have spent from one day to three days in the agency. I always feel a good relationship is going to be a give and take. I've just been able to meet some incredible agents who become extremely close friends. I think it's key to be able to give, give, give.

Ryan Hanley: Do you think that agents today are more open to those kinds of conversations?

Chris Paradiso: I do. I think the agency today isn't the agency 10 years ago where everybody thought we were all competitors. We're not competing against each other, man. We're competing against direct writers. We're competing against the billion-dollar marketing ads from Geico and State Farm and even Progressive. Unfortunately, we're competing against the direct writers who have billions of dollars. You and I, Ryan, we could get our top 100 friends and we probably still couldn't come up with a billion-dollar marketing budget. So I think we have more to share and I think there's more open minds today.

Chris Paradiso: Of a recent thing that we just did, right? We had 12, 14, 15 agencies in a room. We shared. And we were all what people would say are competitors because we were all within three states, maybe four states. But most of us are pretty close to each other. And nobody cared. We all shared because we know that we are not competing against each other. I think the mind shift has changed. I think it's a good thing.

Ryan Hanley: Case in point, you got Carlos Vargas and Matt Nimoli from GNN. Two guys who both operate in Eastern Massachusetts who both write a ton of homeowners insurance. They both market very similarly to mortgage brokers.

Chris Paradiso: 100%.

Ryan Hanley: And what did Carlos say? "I learned a lot from these guys." And what did these guys say? Matt says, "I'm willing to share, man. I'm willing to share." It's crazy because I think it's being comfortable enough to know that there's plenty out there. We all think we have the secret sauce, but it doesn't matter if you have the secret sauce and I share it. What are you going to do with it? I think that's the key thing. We're going to make it and put our own spin on things. At the end of the day, we're not competing against other independent agents. We're just not doing that.

Chris Paradiso: No, because eventually the clients are going to find agencies that fit their personality and what they're looking for. I think the difference when it comes to directs and captives and even the carriers that we work with who compete directly against us and use our data against us—it's so much more of a marketing play for them. It's just wedging in, hitting them a thousand times. It's constantly being that button that's one click away. That's a marketing strategy, but it's not a strategy for success for the client. From my perspective, and I think you and I have even talked about this before, it's about getting them into our channel. Once someone understands the value of an independent agent, then they kind of shake out into the agency that best fits what they're looking for.

Chris Paradiso: I agree. I think we have two competitive advantages. Number one, we live in their community. You cannot take these direct writers. They are not focused on affecting communities. They're just not doing that. So that is one huge competitive advantage. And I'm hoping that a large majority of independent agents—as we were just talking about, the direct writers that we're competing against on a daily basis are offering our clients $100,000 of liability on their homeowners. Shame on us if we're independent agents offering $100,000. Shame on us because at the end of the day, that $100,000 liability for that homeowner's policy only benefits the insurance company. We are better than that. We know our clients need more than that. We should educate, educate, educate, educate. We're going to lose in some cases because it's all about the almighty dollar, but we should not stoop to the level of any of our clients having a $100,000 liability on their homeowner's policy. We're better than that.

Ryan Hanley: Yeah, I agree. One of the places that you and I have spent a lot of time talking, especially back when I was first getting off the ground, is markets. I look today at the ecosystem. I was talking to our good buddy Seth Zaremba about this when I was helping him with the launch video for Neon. We were talking about where agencies are going from the standpoint of it's always kind of been that the goal was to do it yourself—be your own boss, stand alone. You only joined a network or an aggregator or a market access company if you just couldn't get it done or you couldn't get to a market. After being part of Indium and getting to know CLI and getting to know some of these other networks that are available that maybe you don't hear about as much, I don't know that that's so true anymore. It feels to me like the future of our industry is independent for sure, but also connected in a way that maybe wasn't even possible five, 10 years ago.

Ryan Hanley: Do you see that coming? Do you feel like that's where we're going? Where do you stand on this idea of joining a tool like Neon or joining a CLI or an Indium? Do you even think it's possible to grow that agency all by yourself, not connected to these other organizations?

Chris Paradiso: I think it's hard. I think being a little different in the sense is I'm very thickheaded. I chose that I was not going to start by going to an aggregator, just me being thick-headed and saying I can do it. I think it is very difficult because it's just the way the insurance world works. Carriers want big numbers. They want to know that you're going to succeed, you're going to give them business. Starting off is like expecting a baby to come out of the womb and start running. It's not natural. It's going to take time unless you're going to buy agencies.

Chris Paradiso: I think a lot of agencies, for good, bad, or indifference—and a lot of people can argue this both ways—I think agents are now looking for protection. Protection in the sense of, where do we go when commissions continue to decrease? I only dream that there are insurance companies that will look at us agents and say, "Hey, if you, Ryan, are with XYZ insurance company and you write $300,000 of new business this year, and the last three years you've only written $20,000, and I wrote $30,000 of new business this year, why should you and I get the same compensation?" You should be paid based off your performance. I would love to see carriers pay based off of performance.

Chris Paradiso: Right now we're paid based off of performance on something we have very little or no control over. I apologize if I offend anybody because I seem to offend people when I say this, but we agents are really a sales organization, aren't we? When I hear underwriting, isn't it the job of the people who are pricing the product to make sure that they're pricing it properly? Our job is to go sell it. Then we hear, "Hey, Ryan, you're running a temperature. Please tell me who not to write and I won't write them." I don't say that to be a wise guy. I say that because now I'm being paid off of a performance that really is the performance of somebody else who wrote the pricing, when I didn't write the pricing. If you really think about that, why isn't there—and maybe there are carriers—saying, "Okay, if you write X amount, if you're the first $100,000 to $300,000 that you write in new business, we're going to give you this. If you reach $300,000 to a million, we're going to give you this." How about a performance-based commission based on how you grow? I think that would change some of the agency's mind.

Chris Paradiso: Why I kept saying protection is I think agents are assuming or thinking that with numbers, we have volume, and with volume, we have power, which I do agree. But with that power, we also lose some power because you and I belong to a cluster of 500 other agencies. We have power within the 500, but we're not communicating directly with the carriers. I think protection is really what agencies are looking for. If I'm being a realist, I think more and more clusters—I think there's going to be more agencies that come together and organize clusters, very similar to what Neon is doing, bringing people together, reading data, helping each other with each other's data. I think naturally something's going to come out of that. Not sure if they ever thought about that, but I think naturally there are going to be evolution of clusters in that sense, because I do think, unfortunately, we need some protection.

Chris Paradiso: Yeah. We can't keep taking rate reductions or commission reductions and being asked to do more things. For example, I can't explain how many things just on a small—well, they have a couple pieces of chipping paint. So now what we're doing is we're getting a letter, "Hey, you need to have this piece repaired or you need to have this repainted." It's great. We're communicating with the customer more and more and more and more. How about with handling claims?

Chris Paradiso: Your agency needs to have an in-house claims person today because unfortunately, the large majority of the claims that we're dealing with are becoming people that are becoming agitated because claims adjusters aren't following through. They're not calling back when they say they're going to call back or say, "Hey, we could be today, could be Friday at seven o'clock." So I think we need protection. And I think that's unfortunately where we're going to be going.

Ryan Hanley: Yeah, so I've had a couple of experiences recently with this particular thing. I think a big part of the problem are some of the legacy games that a lot of carriers still play. I had an account come in. It was about $150,000 in premium. That would have been a very nice account for Rogue. And I was told by a carrier when I submitted that business to them, "No, we don't want it." It was my client, the person that I was referred to was buying an existing business. So because it was new ownership, they're like, "It's a new owner, all this stuff." And they said, "No, we don't want it." Well, another agent who's about a hundred times bigger than me, who has a bigger book with that same carrier, comes in and submits it over the top of me and they approve it. And now I lost that account to the same company that had told me no. And I went back to them and I was like, "WTF guys," except I did not use the initials there. I was fairly upset on the phone. I said, "I submitted this first. I submitted it. I gave you a great submission. I outlined the whole case for you. You actually know more because of my submission than their submission because I saw it." And they're like, "They have X amount of premium with us. If they want it, they get it." And I'm like, it goes back to size. So you had size and they have volume.

Chris Paradiso: So unfortunately, Ryan, I hear the story. I've seen the story. I was a part of that story when I first started. So unfortunately, it's something that happens. Not sure how many people out there want to talk about it or admit it, but it does happen.

Ryan Hanley: Yeah, they don't want to talk about it. But then when you talk to carrier reps, they bitch and they complain about clusters and aggregators and networks leveraging their premium against them. And I'm like, "Well, if you guys didn't do like this scenario over here, then agents like me and other agents like me wouldn't need to go into a cluster and leverage the premium against you to get stuff done." I guess the question to you is, do you think there's going to be regulation for BORs and things like that where everybody is on an even playing field? Because everybody isn't on the even playing field right now. There are BOR protections out there and other forms of protection just like this.

Chris Paradiso: Yeah, so I'm of two minds. I'm of two minds. There's that I just want to know what the rules of the game are. That's really where I stand. If it's going to be the Wild West and it's dog eat dog and let's strap our pistols on and go to war, I'm okay with that game. I can fight. I have no problem. Just tell me that's the game and I can play that game. Or if we're going to do the right thing and make a full submission and first in, and then we're going to acknowledge that first submission, and when that person comes in over the top of me, they have to BOR my initial submission for theirs to count. Don't tell me the rules are this way, but then when you get one of your big guys in, all the rules go out the door. And if that's the rule, if the rule is once you hit a certain amount, you can just leverage the shit out of us, use and abuse, and we'll cave to your every demand, then that's okay too. I guess I just want to know the rules of the engagement. Just tell me how it works. That's all. You can choose whatever you want. If I have to stand on my head and hand it to you with my feet, I will figure out how to do that if that's how you want the submission to come in.

Ryan Hanley: I think the reason that there's a whole generation of agency owners between the ages of 35 and 50 who are new to the business, three to five years into owning their agency, and they're making these decisions today. And if carriers want to have the relationships that their marketing reps pretend like they want to have with agencies, then they need to establish the rules and abide by them. Now, some carriers do it. This is not a broad sweeping knock. But I do think there are enough carriers that play these games that they're going to tell you one thing and then do something else. And then what ends up happening? You get frustrated, you go to the network, and then we just pile on and we push for more commissions and we push for more crap. And everyone, the customer experience becomes worse. Everyone becomes more disconnected. Everyone becomes more bitter. And that bothers me because it doesn't have to be that way. It's just establish a set of rules and guidelines and play by them. What those rules and guidelines are, I don't think matters to anybody. If it's "big dogs win, screw you," then that's fine. I just got to become a big dog. And then I get to walk in the room and get things done. I just need to know.

Chris Paradiso: And I think the big dog has changed, though. I think behind closed doors, the big dog is obviously volume. But I think the big dog today is the agency that is socially, digitally, technology savvy. And I think the reason why I think the big dog today is social, digitally, and technology savvy is because I think there's a difference today. And Gary Vee sums it up best. He talks about the famous people today aren't actors and actresses. They're people on social media. For example, my kids watch YouTube TV. They watch these kids. Some do slime, some do this. And I'm like, "Who are these people?" Duggan, something, whatever they're called. They have millions and millions of views. And my son tells me, "Yeah, this kid's nine years old making millions of dollars a year based off of his YouTube show." Why? Because he has millions. He has a microphone. And I think that is where you might look at yourself and say, "My volume isn't big right now because I'm brand new." But you have a microphone that says that you have a big step. That microphone can change the way people are going to proceed, meaning the decision makers that are going to decide. So that's why I think there is going to be a complete shift. And I think this data shift is really where it's going to help people like you and me. If you compare me to you, I'm big, but if you compare me to the top 100, I'm tiny. But the one thing that's going to leverage for us, that data is going to allow us to have an even playing field, not only with large independent agents, it's going to give as even a more powerful leverage against direct writers who have those billion dollar budgets. And that's where the new wave is going to go. And I think you're going to see a shift in this. I really do. I know you're saying the game is different for different agencies based on volume and size. It has been. It will probably continue. But I think it's going to change. And I think what's going to help us and allow us to do that is as agencies that are really progressive, that are first going to figure out what to do with their data, and secondly, that are going to continue to pound socially, digitally, and every other aspect of marketing. And I think that's what's going to give you an enormous opportunity to grow faster than other agencies from scratch, maybe 10, 15, 20 years ago. So it's a very interesting time.

Ryan Hanley: I'm glad that you went there. That's where I wanted to go with you next was technology and the idea of data. You had mentioned Frank Sedner before. There was a time when I think Frank was behind the scenes, but after his Insurance Dudes podcast, his article in your magazine, and future articles that may or may not be coming out, he's not so behind the scenes anymore. My reason for saying all that is this idea of data, and not just data, but clean data and what you can do with that data and put into use. I wholly agree with you. Rogue Risk will most likely never be a top 100 agency, but I do think that we can get to a very sustainable and legitimate position in the marketplace faster because of some of the technologies that you've introduced me to. Things like Tarmika and Neon and Donna and these technologies that are allowing main street, everyday working class agencies to be primetime players. In some cases, have more access and insight to the things happening in their agencies than the top 100.

Chris Paradiso: Oh, there's no question. No question. Totally, totally agree with you. And I think that's having your hand on the pulse. And that's why when people ask, "Where is the future going?" I'm super excited where the future is going because I think the great thing about the technology, whether it's Donna, whether it's Tarmika, whether it's the Insurance Agent App, doesn't matter. All those aspects of technology are giving and allowing us agents, doesn't matter if you're Paradiso's size or Ryan Hanley's size of the agency. It's creating a more even playing field. If anything, I think it's creating a more powerful playing field for us smaller agencies versus the agencies that are hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue because of having that technology and being able to implement. The reason why Titanic hit the iceberg was because it was so big, it took so long to move that boat. Size and volume can cause stagnation. I think it will stagnate some only because of the size and the ability of not being as flexible. And I think that's why I'm super excited, whether it's Tarmika and allowing agencies to be able to get six, seven, eight quotes in the average of six seconds. I'm sorry, six minutes max. Where do you get six, seven, eight, ten quotes in six minutes? I showed an agency the other day. I'm like, "In six minutes, we have all this. We can now be profitable with that." Now, the larger agencies can implement that too. It's just, when are they going to implement it? It takes something like Donna, where it's a data program. And what you find people saying is, I've had agents say, "Well, one of my customer service teammates says that I think it's going to be this and I don't have time for that and I don't have time for this." Well, let me tell you something. That data and that data program called Donna is all about giving a better customer experience and finding out if we're not giving a good customer experience. We're human beings. We are staff and teammates and we're going to make mistakes. It's about identifying those mistakes and fixing them. It's never about making mistakes. It's how do we relate to fixing the problem or issue. We're not all going to have good days every day. And I think the most powerful thing you have today, you have things going against you. You're small, you're a startup, you're limited carriers. But I think you have all the aspects of having enough people that you surround yourself with in this industry, number one, which is going to allow you to grow faster. Number two, that these people and your friends are helping you identify successful technology that's there today. So people like you, Ryan, are going to have the ability to be able to grow faster, quicker, and we'll see what happens with the carriers. But I try to open the eyes to any of the higher up people that I might know, whether they're vice president or presidents, to say, "Hey, you need to take on a Ryan Hanley. Ryan Hanley is the future. Some of these other carrier agencies are not the future." They don't have a website or they have a website that's dinosaur or still on a static platform, not even mobile friendly. I mean, there's a million things. That's not the future agent. The future agent is the agent that's going to keep an open mind. You said, "Oh, I might not be one of the top 100." You may not want to be one of the top 100. One of the most powerful agencies that I would say in the country is Russ Castle, Castle Insurance. He does extremely well. The dollars per teammate is enormous. And what he does is he runs an efficient, I would call it an ice cream parlor. An ice cream parlor only does one thing really well: ice cream. And he sticks within his realm. He's happy, he's profitable, and he makes sure he can take care of his teammates. So I think there's huge opportunity and there's going to be a lot more people just like you that are going to continue to shake this industry up.

Ryan Hanley: Yeah, I agree with that. There are so many agencies, and the beauty of the last three to five years has been they're starting to speak up or ask questions. I think a lot of times we were so... you go to this, you sit in your office all day, and then once a year you come out to this trade organization and you sit in a room and you listen to a couple people talk to you, and then you go back and you put your head down. And that's it. Social media, Facebook groups, networking groups. There's a million different masterminds, every flavor. You can really pick where you want to be, who you want to hang out with. And it's allowed so many agencies to build exactly the type of agency that they want to be. When you talk about these different technologies, I have struggled. One of the struggles, and I've talked about this before on the show, is being aware of so much of what's out there. It's been hard not to chase technology versus just calling people on the phone and writing insurance because it's in my nature to do that. And I know what's there and what's possible. And like Frank has said it, Seth Zaremba said it, you're hearing it more and more. The idea that download is the future of our industry is insane. It's absolutely insane. And the quality of implementation around IVANS, and it's not necessarily a knock on IVANS itself, but the quality of the implementation around download, it's so difficult to do. Sure, can you write policies and cash checks? Sure, you can. You absolutely positively can. But when you actually start to think about what you have from a data perspective, and then I have a conversation for an hour with Chris Burand on this podcast and he's telling me that the number one factor impacting the valuation that you get over the next five to ten years is going to be how clean your data is. You can't get clean data with download. I'm having my VA right now has spent the last week contacting my carriers, trying to better align my agency management system with the download. And it's a nightmare. This carrier does this with this and doesn't give you this. I know I'm not saying anything that anyone who's been around for a while doesn't know, but that reality to me, you listen to that and then you think Tarmika, Donna, Agency Apps, the Independent Agency App, you think about Salesforce implementations, whether on Neon or not on Neon, but HubSpot, Salesforce. These are API driven technologies where the connection is exactly what you need it to be when you need it to be there. And it's done in real time. And that is such a game changer. I do not think... I think it feels like science fiction to most agents. And what I hope is that they hear me. I talk in hyperbole. That's my shtick. So I think some people discount it. But you don't talk in hyperbole and you're living it right now. And you're in these conversations with people. You're driving a lot of these technologies out into the marketplace. You're a force behind that. So I hope that they'll listen to you.

Chris Paradiso: Well, the interesting thing, you and I were together a few weeks ago and I've been a David Goggins freak for some time and we started chatting. The interesting thing he said the other day... We here in my town, right up the road, seven houses down, is one of the second largest Ford collections. Henry Ford, the guy's a Henry Ford junkie, not in the United States but in the world. He has a hundred thousand pieces. And one of the things he has hanging up as a quote is Henry Ford said, "If I listened to those, not so much just critics, I would be making faster horses in 1920. And instead I'm making cars." If you really think about that, it's the same thing that we're thinking about when we're talking about data. Who would ever think that 10, 15 years ago, we would be talking clean data? Clean data is one of the largest and most valuable things to our evaluation moving forward. And here we are struggling with it because of some of the technology. So how I'm looking at this is, how do I drive and generate people to come together, connect? For example, connecting just Aries Analytics and the Donna program with great people and industry people who love the industry, like Rocket Referrals, Torrey and his brother. Let's do it. That makes all the sense in the world.

Ryan Hanley: Well, that is the attitude we need. And I think we need to take that attitude as agents and really force change. We need to push change.

Chris Paradiso: As David Goggins says, it's mindset. The only person that can stop you is you. Just look in the mirror. And that's what I'm going to continue to do. Some people will like us, Ryan. Some people won't like us. I always say, don't be a jellyfish. My grandfather always reminded me, have a backbone. And we're going to push this industry. And I think we need to continue to push it. And that's what I love about Frank. Some people say, "Hey, Frank's got a chip on his shoulder. Frank's this and Frank's that." Frank's hitting a lot of valid points. When we were recently talking on a webinar together, he got a very interesting question: "What is... why can't agents build that great customer experience?" And Frank stepped back and said, "Hey, let's always remember one thing. When a carrier talks to the agent's customer, the agent doesn't know what they're sending. And when the agent talks to the customer that's insured with whatever carrier, the carrier doesn't know. The customer experience will always be flawed until we have a system." And that's why if you think about what happened last week, you did a great job with the launch. And the great thing about seeing the launch is that I stepped back and said, "Ryan Hanley, Seth Zaremba, and all these other agents are supporting each other." And if there's nothing that makes you smile as an independent agent, there's nothing that made me smile more that he reached out to you and you supported the heck out of him. Agents supporting other agents. And that's what makes me smile. And I think that's what's going to continue to push the envelope to make technology better, make systems better so that we all can win. And I think carriers will embrace it because I think it's going to benefit them just as much as it's going to benefit us.

Ryan Hanley: Yeah. I think what I think is interesting about Seth's video, he makes a lot of points. I think the one out of that video, if you have no interest in Salesforce or what he's doing, if you have no interest in the technology, that's fine. That part, we all get to build whatever we want. That's the beauty of this business. I think his most important point is that no one is going to do it for us. We can't count on our carrier partners. We can't count on outside technology vendors. We have to count on each other. That to me has been one of the biggest eye-opening parts of becoming an owner of an agency and dealing with all this stuff every day. I only now will work with a piece of technology if someone that I admire and respect has used it, is referring them. I just, you can't count on these people. I was pitched a product at the beginning and during the pitch the founder had the balls to tell me, "Yeah, I'm just trying to get as many agents on this thing as I can so I can sell it." And I'm like, "Bro, if I was even considering working with you, now I'm not." And this is a piece of technology that I know a lot of people are getting tricked into using. And I just, we have to count on each other. We have to rely on each other. We have to do 16-person masterminds in the Tarmika headquarters kind of semi-impromptu and share and be open because there are a lot of people and a lot of outside organizations whose best interest is not the betterment of our customers or our staff or us or our families or our communities. That's not their best interest. And they're going to do everything they can to extract as much value from us as they can and not care. And we have to be very smart. And the only way to do that is to trust each other as agency producers, owners, as agency people. It's the only way to move forward. That has become clear, if anything is, having been seven months into this role.

Chris Paradiso: Well, yeah, I think the number one thing, the same thing as what you just did last week, is you stepped up to the plate and supported another agent. And that's my biggest concern: making sure not only associations, but groups don't just start disliking other insurance agent groups just because they might be different. And that's the key factor. Let's support each other. Let's not be jealous. Let's not take sides. Let's say, "Hey, we can move the insurance industry forward. Why would we not want that?" Everybody is not meant to be on Neon. Just like everybody is not meant to be with Hawksoft or Vertafore or Applied. That's why there's so many systems. There's systems because they all work a little different and we all have different workflows inside of our agency. So I think the key factor is, can we open enough minds that first and foremost, we stick together, and second, continue to open the minds in the sense of, "Hey, we need to find the technology that's going to work best for us." Like what you had said, "Hey, there's so many shiny objects out there, but how do I keep track of all of them?" I think that's one of the biggest things that if I was to say that the insurance agents failed at, it's why are we not embracing and showing up and being a part of the insuretech world so that we can identify and share with each other? And that's what I love to do. I just wish there were more agents that would be more involved and then bringing it to other agents so that we can open each other's mind. Because at the end of the day, if I'm using a technology like Donna and I open that door for you, Ryan, you're going to make it better. Period. What do we do with Seth? Seth talks about some, we all throw ideas out there. What does he do? He makes it better. Why? Because we utilize the system or we utilize the technology. We understand the processes because even though we're all doing it a little differently, we're all still touching a lot of the same points. So at the end of the day, if we can stick together, get over the popularity contest and things of that sort, I think agents are going to win. And I think the industry is going to win. And I think carriers are going to win. And I think there's a whole new wave of people, Ryan, that are going to start just like you. And they are going to be a force to be reckoned with. I have a buddy. I would have loved to take him on my team. We call him Bronco. He's out of Naugatuck. He's got cancer right now. He's fighting cancer. He's a great, great, great young man. He's a beast, man. And I've called the insurance companies and said, "If you don't take him on in five years, you're going to be kicking yourself in the ass because you're going to realize this dude is going to... he just will not be outworked. He will figure out technology. He will figure out systems." That's what we need to do is support each other.

Ryan Hanley: Yeah, I agree with you. And I want to be respectful of your time. I think what you just said is the way. The idea that I wish carriers would open their mind to... I just had a carrier decline an appointment with me who I am working in their space every day on the commercial side, because I didn't have a million in commercial premium on the books. Which doesn't sound like a lot. I'm a startup agency. I get it. But at the same time, I was like, "Bro, I'm trying to... you know how I get to a million? I write a bunch with you. That's why I'm calling you." And it's just, that's such a point in time. And then, I always love to give Hanover shout outs because they have been such a tremendous partner for my agency. And I love the way they think about it. I had the region, the Personal Lines Northeast regional guy called me just for an update, just to check in a couple of weeks ago. And we were talking about stuff and I said, "Man, I finished the call with... I'm looking forward to writing more with you guys." And he goes, "Look, don't even worry about that. We don't care about Rogue Risk 2020. We appointed you for Rogue Risk 2025." And I was like, "Wow, that is exactly how I believe a carrier should be thinking about this generation of agencies." Because we're coming in and we're going to start small because we've learned the lesson of giving away a shit ton of equity upfront. So we're coming in where there's a lot of people self-funding. There's a lot of people doing different things from that perspective. But in five years, they're going to be the next players in the marketplace.

Chris Paradiso: But just remember one thing. One thing that I remembered is that I was in your boat in 2006. And it's not easy. And just do me one favor. Remember those carriers that stuck with you when you started. Because I reiterate to myself, I had the same thing. "Oh, well, there's another person, they don't want you to have the appointment, you're not big enough, you're this, you're that, the other thing." And the one thing you have in control is how hard you work. And I still have written down the same thing that says, "I will not be outworked. I will not be outworked. I will not be outworked." So remember those carriers that believe in you today. Because there is always, Hanover has been a great partner of mine, but there is always a carrier or two who says, "You know what, we're going to invest in you, Ryan. And we hope that you stay loyal. Like we're going to be loyal to you in 2025." The great thing is that that gentleman that reached out to you and said, "Hey, we're investing in your future." I mean, what makes more sense than that?

Chris Paradiso: Reward those carriers. I do the same thing. Just don't forget the carrier who helped make you who you are in five years from now. When you have $10 million and carriers are trying to come into the door, just remember those carriers who said, "I'm sorry, you don't have this, you don't have that." Well, I can't get to that if I don't have the opportunity to get to that. Meaning I have to have carriers. I went through it. You just got to remain loyal to those who are loyal to you and thank them. I thank them all the time for the opportunity to be where I am today, because they took that risk, just as Hanover took that risk with you.

Ryan Hanley: Yeah. And I give carriers like that a big shout out because they believe in you. They believe in their future by investing in you. And as you know, you're not going to make any money in year one, right?

Chris Paradiso: No.

Ryan Hanley: You're probably not going to make much in year two.

Chris Paradiso: No. There's gonna be no money made in year one. But remember those that invested in you. That's just awesome. Shout out to not only a great partner for you, but a great partner for our agency too.

Ryan Hanley: Yeah. And the last thing I'll say is you won't be outworked. You will not. You also will not be out-flagged. Right now behind you, I counted it while you were talking, nine different American flags. I have one in my backdrop as well. And I have one of the things that you probably don't even realize, but I have learned from you. I'm an incredibly patriotic person, but I don't display it as much, or I didn't. From watching you and being around you, I've become very comfortable. I love this place. I love it.

Chris Paradiso: Perfect.

Ryan Hanley: No, but I absolutely love this country. I love what it stands for. And I just wanted to tell you, because I've never said this to you before, I have watched, learned, and become very comfortable with my own patriotism. That might sound weird because of you and your openness to it. I just wanted to say thank you for that.

Chris Paradiso: I appreciate that. I said goodbye to my mentor yesterday. Next to him was this flag. He served and he had a ninth grade education. He actually never told his mom and dad that his dad, unfortunately, was a degenerate gambler and alcoholic, and mom at those times were stay-at-homes because they had brothers and sisters. He quit school to make sure he could pay the Spalatchee meat market their money because back then they didn't pay. I spent hundreds of hours with this man and learned more about this country. Not only from my grandfather, but from him. Proud as a peacock, you have to be able to wear it. People don't have to agree. We're going through turmoil in this country. But the greatest thing is that people fought and died for us to go through that turmoil. In other countries, you can't do what we can do here. So even if I disagree with people burning the flag, people died to give you that right to burn that flag, even though I will never burn that flag. If you only knew how many flags I really have in my office. Just got into one yesterday.

Ryan Hanley: The good news is I know there are guns behind all of them, which makes me even more comfortable.

Chris Paradiso: Chris, dude, I appreciate you so much. You are a treasure to the industry. I mean that in the most sincere way. I think most of the people listening do not have an appreciation for what you've done and how much you've given and how many people you've helped. It's just an honor to have you on here and share a little bit of your insight.

Ryan Hanley: Honored to be on here. We're going to keep pushing for you. As I've always said to you and other agents, if you need help getting a carrier, please open your mouth. Good, hard working people. I'm always willing to open my mouth and put something on the line for you.

Chris Paradiso: Yeah, I appreciate it. Hey, be good. Thanks, brother.

Ryan Hanley: I need help. You go fuck yourself with your fat fucking ass. Thank you. Do you want to have a few drinks and smoke a joint, Bubbles? Yes. Yes. Yes. Thank you. Do you want to have a few drinks and smoke a joint, Bubbles? Yes.

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