--:-- Host: In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home... Hello everyone and welcome back to the show. Today we have the one, the only, Preston Diamond, founder of the Work Comp Institute, educating insurance professionals around the country on everything workers' comp. They give the Workers' Comp Insurance Advisor designation and a Master's in Work Comp designation as well. And Preston has forgotten more things about workers' comp, selling insurance, handling customers than most of us will ever know in three lifetimes.
--:-- Host: But that's not necessarily why I wanted to have Preston on the show, although his expertise in the insurance world is undeniable in his reputation. Why I wanted to have Preston on the show is, one, I just don't see him on many shows, and I wanted to have a chance to talk to him, as well as Preston has this ability to put insurance into terms that the non-insurance folk can understand. I think that's a superpower. So often we get caught using our own language that it's an enormous turnoff to our customers. It's actually one of the things that I pride myself on. And as much as I'm not an incredible insurance salesman, I do think that one of the things I've been able to develop over the years is an ability to boil what we do down into language that people can understand and it is relatable. And Preston is a master at that. So anytime I have a chance to talk to someone who is light years ahead of me in a skill that I want to continue to develop, it's a huge win.
--:-- Host: I think you're going to love this conversation. There are a few technical issues in the middle, so you'll hear what feels like a couple jumps. Those are just where I've spliced where his internet went down. I hope you'll look past that. It's nothing major, but if it seems like there's a weird moment, that's what's happening. And in general, if you're interested in digging deep into the real nitty-gritty of comp, the WorkComp Institute is a great place to get that education. I know a lot of people who are part of it.
--:-- Host: Before we get to Preston, I want to give a big shout-out to today's sponsor, and that is Donna. Donna for Agents by Arias Analytics. Donna is starting to take over the independent agency ecosystem by storm. They're hooking into agency management systems. They're already inside of HawkSoft, they'll be in NowCerts soon. I know they're looking at connecting to different CRM systems. What Donna does is it gives you insights into your customer base that you didn't even know were there. They have a proprietary scoring system for your communications—your text messages, your emails, your phone calls—that boils down the language, how often people are contacting you, what they're saying, what they're talking to you about, what your responses are to them. It creates this centimeter score that is basically how someone feels about your agency. And then it's ranking. It can show you that based on the agency as a whole, broken down into segments, all the way down to individuals. What that allows you to do is get out ahead of customers who maybe have the potential for leaving.
--:-- Host: Now, this might sound a lot like NPS, and NPS is great, don't get me wrong, but the most that you should be tracking net promoter score is once every six months. The centimeter score is taking every conversation that you have with one of your clients and it's able to real-time gauge where they are. And there are all kinds of other features to Donna. It's not something that I have implemented into my agency yet, but it is on my 2021 roadmap. Delivering this type of customer experience, this type of insightful, engaged customer experience is a priority for me. It's an important aspect. I'm bypassing other aspects of my business to make sure that this is part of it. And when they get hooked into NowCerts, I will absolutely be on the path to putting Donna in.
--:-- Host: I've spent a lot of time with Ron Scheuer and with Anurag and the entire team there. I met them through Paradiso and have just been blown away by what their tool can present to you, specifically the centimeter score, but then there's a whole bunch of other stuff as well that comes with it that I'm not going to waste your time with right this second. Go check it out. Go to just Google "Donna for Agents." You can check them out on Twitter, LinkedIn. They got social profiles all over. Donna for Agents. I'm telling you guys, this is something you absolutely want to know about. I did not steer you wrong with Tarmica. I absolutely didn't steer you wrong with Tarmica. I'm telling you, Donna is the next big technology that needs to be on your radar. Whether you choose to use it or not, it needs to be on your radar. You need to get the demo and just know what it's about because I'm telling you, for some of you, this is going to blow your mind and change the way you view data and analytics.
--:-- Host: All right, guys, let's get on to Preston Diamond. Hello, sir.
--:-- Preston Diamond: Hey, how are you?
--:-- Host: Excellent, sir. You too, young man? I appreciate you coming on and doing the show.
--:-- Preston Diamond: Hey, I appreciate you asking, of course.
--:-- Host: Well, I have been following some of these LinkedIn posts that you've been doing. And I just was like, "Oh my gosh, I want to learn more about this stuff." Some of the concepts and ideas, the way that you break them down, it's really fun and interesting. I have a ton of questions. What were the things you said you added, a few things that you definitely wanted to talk about? What were those things?
--:-- Preston Diamond: Well, this year's—let's say this last year and this coming six months at least—are different. The difference is so many unemployed. Our webinar tomorrow is "Hiring Producers." You're probably not on that list, but we have 14 or 15 questions over a two-week period that we're going to talk about on hiring producers with the New Yorker who does that. There are so many unemployed people. If any agent isn't looking for a new producer, it seems folly because there are a lot of good people. They probably don't have to pay; they just need to put somebody to work. Even if it's an intern in their agency, every agency should have an intern to do research on prospects, take it out of the producer's hands. The producer just has to draw the specs, the agency draws the specs, and then put the $15 an hour person to work.
--:-- Preston Diamond: We've had an intern for a bit. Actually, right now we have one who's 35 who's just getting his degree in college, but he owned a business and had a bad accident, so he had to sell his business. He went back to school to get his college degree. We're going to try to keep him. For us, he runs the automation. He's learned how to be a great videographer, produces the Wisdom Letter, and manages our Infusionsoft CRM really well. He never bothers. He's just great. He's a stay-at-home dad. His wife is a fundraiser for a college down the road. So there are so many opportunities.
--:-- Preston Diamond: The major statistics—not the middle of the road—are different. We had an advisor who did $600,000 in new revenue last year, all online. And another who did $300,000. Because they really learned how to use Zoom. They really engaged their folks. Truly, it saves a buyer time; you just have to be active at how you use Zoom. Make it engaging and not make it very long. The one who did $300,000 is a 38-year-old producer who only talks about cyber and comp—two hot spots. He doesn't get muddled up in packages or those kinds of apps. His call for large companies is direct to the risk manager who's in charge of that, which is pretty smart.
--:-- Host: Going after high mod stuff?
--:-- Preston Diamond: No, it doesn't matter. He's calling accounts. He has no fear. His first job out of college was making cold calls to business owners to sell him seats to the Masters Golf Tournament and to the baseball All-Star Game. So he was selling $25,000 tickets at 20 years old, out of college at 21. He's kept that mentality. He called a hospitality firm with 500 locations. Cold call. He called another retail establishment around the country with 300 locations. Direct call. He didn't know them, but he found out who the risk manager was and just called the risk manager.
--:-- Host: I've talked about it before on the show, but the thing that holds me back the most is call reluctance. I make the calls. I just don't make enough of them or make them often enough. I get so twisted up in my head. It is one of the things about my own personality that I struggle with the most. Even saying it out loud makes me crazy that I struggle with it so much. But left to my own devices sitting here, I don't make enough phone calls.
--:-- Preston Diamond: That's a number of us. I've been doing this for a long time. It bothers me to get on the phone. It's like, I'm disturbing somebody now. And I'm calling people who are agents, so I can talk to them in their language easily. But you just have to trick yourself. There are a couple of ways to do it. My guess is that you go to the refrigerator a little bit during the day.
--:-- Host: Occasionally.
--:-- Preston Diamond: What's the first thing that happens when you open the refrigerator door?
--:-- Host: Start scanning.
--:-- Preston Diamond: No. When you open the door, what's the very first thing that happens?
--:-- Host: The light comes on.
--:-- Preston Diamond: Right. So pretend you're on the stage. That's a practice moment for a call. Trick yourself into doing these things that become automatic. Set your alarm. Set your phone alarm for 37 after the hour, two hours a day, and practice for a minute. Have a script in front of you. That kind of stuff.
--:-- Preston Diamond: The other two things that make calling easier that we talk to the young agents about: our phones obviously record. You can talk back. You can use apps like Otter that will print what you're saying. When you read anything out loud, you'll know how it sounds to the listener. We try not to let a letter get out of here unless somebody reads it out loud. We're not really good at it enough, Amanda is, but I write it, I just get it out. So I'm an old lazy guy maybe. It's doing things that change how we think.
--:-- Preston Diamond: I have a document that I think is up here. It's a "Break the Rules and Make New Rules for This Year" document. It's just one page with, I think, three, six, nine, 12 squares on it. Those are the rules that we're talking to agents to break and make new rules this year. One of them is something I've been touting for 50 years. I started consulting in '77, so 43, 44 years coming up. And that is: not talk insurance talk, purely. My next post is going to be about getting rid of a couple of insurance terms to make it simple. I've done a PowerPoint I've distributed to a few advisors called "Food and Insurance." So that you relate something that everybody knows to a product that nobody understands.
--:-- Preston Diamond: I used to ask folks when I was teaching CIC, "How many of you, when you get your personal policies at home, call your best friends and have a 'let's read my insurance policy' party?" Not exactly. The biggest thing an agent can do, the strongest thing an agent can do, is to create insurance understanding. And you can't do that by words. If you sell auto and home insurance and people come into your agency—when that was the case—the salespeople and personal department should have two toy cars on their desk and crash them together and let them go to the floor to talk about collision. Visual sell. If you Google "visuals versus words," it opens your eyes on how to sell insurance.
--:-- Host: I started taking this little mini online course called... Oh, geez. I'm going to tell you a story about it and I can't remember what it was. "Virtual Visuals" something like that. This is going to kill me. Whatever, some visual course. I started creating graphics out of ideas that I have. If you have an idea, how do you create a graphic that represents that idea? I created maybe 30 of them so far. The feedback I've gotten has been tremendous. I don't want to necessarily say people are calling me to do business because I put some social media graphics out, but I will say that in some cold emails that I've sent to people, I've included one of these visuals.
--:-- Host: I have one that's three V's next to each other. One of the V's is filled halfway, the middle V is filled halfway, and the third V is filled all the way to the top. It has our logo in the middle. On top of the first V, it says "Half Empty." In the middle one, it says "Half Full." And in the third one, it says "Rogue Risk." The title of the graphic is "Are You Getting a Full Cup Experience?" It came out of the idea of, why are we arguing over a cup that is obviously not full? Why don't we just fill the cup up? Why don't we just do all the things we say we're going to do? It's been interesting. I've emailed that to a few potential clients that I'm working and I've at least gotten responses. It's at least gotten them to engage me back. The visual thing is hugely powerful.
--:-- Preston Diamond: It is. That's why Zoom theoretically works better than a phone call. I can see your body language and we're having a face-to-face conversation, not a mouth-to-ear conversation. I wonder how many agencies have their account managers calling all of their clients so they have a face-to-face meeting. Account managers rarely get to meet the people they service. If those agencies aren't taking advantage of Zoom or whatever platform they use...
--:-- Host: I think about this from the standpoint of virtual assistants becoming so much more secure now. Before, it was just bringing someone in that you didn't really necessarily know. Now, if you use an agency VA or one of these other companies that have secure systems, they can actually get into some of your systems. Whether it's someone in the States or someone outside, if you're utilizing virtual assistants for some of the tasks that would normally keep an account manager from having the time to make some of these calls and do Zooms, it really—coupling a tool like Zoom or even a video tool like Loom or Vidyard—you can give your account managers more time. It feels very much like what COVID and the pandemic with all the repercussions from it have shown us is what is actually available to us now. How much more we can do with the time that we have to be a value add and build relationships with our customers.
--:-- Preston Diamond: Absolutely. How many agencies are doing it? No idea. How many are complaining because they can't go see people? No idea. The other thing that Zoom has done in this environment is you can get referrals from friends 300 miles away from a client and take care of them as well as you can take care of somebody in your own backyard. Our exposure to new clients is unlimited now.
--:-- Preston Diamond: We had a program for assisted living and anybody who took care of people. We still do. I don't think we saw 10 clients except when we did marketing seminars around California. It was more than marketing; it was helping them with the code because they're assisted living and they were regulated. Today, when the team there makes calls, they're all picture calls. Now they get to know the people, which increases retention. If every agent isn't doing that with their top accounts—not just the owners of the account, but the account manager, the person that writes the check, the person that takes care of the audit in the business, somebody in safety if they're that large, the HR person if they're that large—anybody that the agency has a relationship with, everybody who handles that account or services that account should have Zoomed their clients.
--:-- Host: I'm sure that happens very often.
--:-- Preston Diamond: No. I don't think it does. I think it's going to take a while for agencies to become accustomed to working video. I think most people are still hoping that eventually it goes back to face-to-face. If you're in a lot of the southern states, you haven't had the lockdowns like we have in the north. Up here, there are clients that I literally don't even know what they look like. It's been interesting. I've had clients who haven't wanted to do Zooms. They're perfectly fine with the phone. They've never met in person. They're fine over the phone. So I think it's a very dynamic time. To me, it feels very easy to feel like you can't deliver as much value because of COVID. What I'm seeing is you can actually deliver a lot more because of what COVID has forced us to do, as a bright spot, as a good way of looking at it.
--:-- Preston Diamond: No, I agree with you 100%. I think part of our problem as agents is we don't ask our clients how they like to do things. My favorite—and we don't ever use the word "question," my favorite we call it "May we check a few points?" Because "question" can be an intimidating word. One of the points that we would always check is, "When we communicate, how do you like to communicate? In person? Well, we're social people, but it's a little harder today, Ryan. Do you like phone? Do you like fax still? Do you like a Zoom call where we face to face? How long do you usually like to talk? A couple minutes?"
--:-- Preston Diamond: When we ask our prospective clients how they like to do things—"Do you prefer me just to drop by when the time is right? Is that okay? Or prefer me not to? Who is it that I should talk to? Who helps you out?" None of those things are on a quote app. A lot of time we don't use common sense ways to frame our business around how the client wants to frame the business, as long as it's not costing us more money. And how to communicate isn't.
--:-- Preston Diamond: When we come back to present—and we don't use the word "proposal" or "presentation," we have our own keywords for things like that because those put the buyer on a little defensive—when I come back to give you our "Report of Findings" is what we use. "You prefer one at 30,000 feet?" That would be for me because I'm a skimmer, I'm not a detailed person like Kevin. He would like it "boots on the ground," he wants to know everything. "Would you like your Report of Findings at 30,000 feet? We'll give you the highlights. Would you like it at 10,000 feet? We'll give you a few more details that we think are important. Or would you like boots on the ground? We'll give you a 52-page Report of Findings." The key is to find out how your buyer likes to do business. If that fits into your way of doing business financially, then why wouldn't you do that? You'll keep the buyer more because they're not straining to fit into our way of doing business.
--:-- Host: I don't think agents pay much attention to that.
--:-- Preston Diamond: Not I don't think.
--:-- Host: I think most of us feel so lucky to get an account that everything you just described would never even enter the realm of consciousness. I had someone the other day talking about—I couldn't figure out the name of the visual course and I'm not going to remember the quote either, so I'm going to butcher it—but the idea was basically that most people live by chance. The average person is just kind of bumping into things. If something good happens, that's great. If something doesn't happen, they kind of deal with it. We have to be conscious and consistent and focused, or otherwise everything is just by chance. I think that's what you're talking about. If you're not figuring out upfront how someone likes to communicate—if someone said, "I don't care about COVID, you have to come into my office," and coming into their office doesn't work for you, or you're 400 miles away from that person—you've just put a ton of work and effort into an account that's never going to actually work out. You're wasting time and energy. Then you'll complain, "Why didn't this happen?" or "Insurance customers don't care anymore." You make up all these excuses. But really, it was because you didn't take the time to figure out right up front if this person was a good fit for you or not.
--:-- Preston Diamond: Sure. Every agent should be in charge of that. What are your rules for having a client hire you? Because they have to live by your rules because you're governed by the insurance company. They're not flexible. So what are your rules knowing how the insurance companies operate? Way before you were born, when direct bill started, we were all worried that we were going to lose all the business. And then now it's ingrained in everybody's business because it's personal and commercial. Those were rule changes. So what are the rules of doing insurance business with Ryan Hanley? Do you have your 10 rules that your buyers can fit into to make it easier for them and for you? They're pretty common sense. Like, "How do you like to communicate? When I come back to present my Report of Findings, we can say nonfat, low fat, and artery clogging." We can use any metaphors that we want, and we should use them so that the buyer understands it exactly.
--:-- Preston Diamond: One of the secrets of selling is—for you, if you suffer a disaster, not "have a claim" because that's an insurance word. If you suffer a disaster or an employee suffers an injury, not "has a claim" because that's an insurance word. "Do you want to know how much the check you're going to have to write when that happens, or how much the check the insurance company is going to write when that happens? What do you prefer, Ryan?"
--:-- Host: Are you asking me personally?
--:-- Preston Diamond: Absolutely.
--:-- Host: I want to know how big a check I'm going to have to write.
--:-- Preston Diamond: Right. But how many agents know that and ask that question? We created a proposal system in 1995 that had to be put on the shelf a couple of years ago because our coverage analyst took another job. I haven't really done much work to find somebody who wants to keep up wording on the insurance industry. But it was all visually based back then. It was three columns. On the left-hand side column was the house. The center was just the word "where you live" and about 10 words describing a homeowner's. Then coverage items with pictures. It was simple. A built-in word. Agents didn't like it because it didn't fit in their agency management system. They'd rather produce something that everybody else produces that people can't understand because it's insurance stock. Have an intern put together these presentations, Report of Findings, proposal, whatever they call it, for them, which buyers understand because they're put together how the mind and the brain work together.
--:-- Preston Diamond: If I spell G-A-R-B-A-G-E for you, your mind would automatically go to "garbage." You wouldn't go to G-A-R-B-A-G-E, the letters. That's creating insurance understanding, which is the key to selling the product because people fear what they don't understand.
--:-- Host: That's human nature. I've said this before on the show. I was lucky to be raised in an agency where my father-in-law is the ultimate storyteller. I would sit in my office and I could hear him selling people. He had these stories that he would tell. I basically stole all of them and made them my stories. He would run people through a story for every coverage on a home and auto. Every coverage had a story. No fault, uninsured motorists. Why do you have full glass on comp when you need collision? When you don't need collision? Story, story. "I had a client that did this. Here's how this happened. What if this happens?" By the end, the people would be talking to him, not in insurance language obviously, but they would know what they were buying. It was insane watching the transformation. It was because even though he didn't necessarily have imagery, he created that with stories.
--:-- Preston Diamond: That's wonderful. Stories sell. Facts confuse. You talk too much, you confuse, you lose. I have an agent friend in Washington. It's a monopolistic state, so he's not a comp agent, but he's a big personal insurance agent. Big, big accounts obviously—Microsoft, Amazon, all of the wealth there. He just roams around taking pictures of accidents. He gets pictures when houses are on fire. His stories are on his laptop showing actual loss events, clipping articles from the local newspapers. That's his Report of Findings or presentation. It's really persuasive and really simple today. Agents make it hard.
--:-- Host: I think we forget sometimes that everyone just assumes they're never going to have a bad loss. Unless you've actually had one, you basically assume it's never going to happen to you. That's one of the reasons why just talking people through coverages and the facts is so meaningless. If they are operating under the assumption it's never going to happen to them, which I think most people do, and they've never had it happen, then what does just telling them "a million dollars in liability" mean to someone who basically assumes that's never going to happen to them? They're too small or they're too safe or they've been doing it for too long and it's never happened. All of a sudden it's meaningless.
--:-- Preston Diamond: Totally. We had an earthquake program. I have a good friend client in New York City who was wiped out by Hurricane Sandy five or six years ago. When Jim and I were talking about it afterward, he was saying, "I should be able to sell flood." He's the only one in his block that had flood insurance. He said, "These people are silly. I should be able to sell them all flood insurance." The New York Times and all the papers said this is a once in a thousand year event. That was noted all the time. So who do you think bought flood insurance from him? Nobody. Didn't sell one.
--:-- Preston Diamond: We had an earthquake program. We had the San Francisco quake during the World Series of '89. We had about 200 houses with problems. During the Northridge quake in 1994, which sort of made us think about moving from California, we had about 800 houses damaged. There hasn't been a quake like that since 1994. Little ones. So from '89 and '94, we're going on 26 years since a big quake. You keep reading about the big quake is coming. But the people that buy quake insurance are those whose lenders make them. We insured some houses of $10 million. We insured stars. We were a wholesaler, so I didn't know any of these people. The premium didn't matter to them, and they had managers that bought insurance. Their managers had to cover their buns, so they did it. But you're right, 100%. Your father-in-law has it exactly right. Stories sell insurance.
--:-- Host: One of the items on one of your LinkedIn posts that I was super interested in is "Unseen and Untold is Unsold." What does that mean? Can you break that down for me?
--:-- Preston Diamond: The words talk for themselves really. If I don't see you and I don't tell you, I can't sell you. Picture sell. Phone? But Zoom makes that happen. Unseen, face-to-face person. But the point is really back to your call reluctance. You can translate "unseen" as "not talked to." If you can't talk to them, you can't sell them, unless you're really direct market and you're selling some product they can buy by mail and never see you.
--:-- Host: There was another post you had about "Winning Questions." This was one of the ones that I wanted to break down a little bit because this was really interesting. You had "12 Winning Questions" posted on LinkedIn. If you're not following Preston on LinkedIn, everyone that's listening, I would absolutely go do so. Must follow on LinkedIn. There are a few of these questions I thought were really interesting. You've already broken down a couple of these. "When I present, do you like 30,000 feet, 10,000 feet, or boots on the ground?"
--:-- Host: I liked, what was it? Non-fat, low-fat, or artery clogging was one. I like that. You have to be a little careful about who you use artery clogging with.
--:-- Preston Diamond: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure.
--:-- Host: But even 30,000, 10,000, or boots on the ground probably gets it done. For these particular questions, I guess my first part is, when are you going through some of these with them? Is this before a sale, post sale? Should this be part of the courting process as you're getting to know them as a prospect or a suspect? Or is this after the sale is over, they've signed all the docs, and I pull out my trusty notebook and go, "Okay, how did you get in the business?" What is the appropriate time? And I'm assuming you do not want to just rattle these off one after the next. There's got to be some artistry to working your way through these questions as well.
--:-- Preston Diamond: Sure. And that starts with your intern researching, finding out. Today, information is pretty readily available through many sources. If one belongs to an association or a group—and every agent should belong to at least one to become an industry insider. We happened to be in California when the assisted living industry started in 1977. A friend introduced me to the president of the association, so I was on the ground floor of that industry in California. I got to learn it. California is an anomaly for that industry. Other states don't have what California has as far as licensing is concerned. My wife and I could become an assisted living facility and just have one resident in and get paid by the state, the city, or by the resident if it's private, as long as we had a fire alarm and an exit in that room. California has a law that six beds or less can be in a private dwelling—or had a law. I think they still do.
--:-- There are five or six questions that are paramount for the very first Zoom meeting and the very first meeting. I actually put together, I think, 112 blue chip questions that cover pretty much any of the incidents you can run into. It's not up to date with cyber and the new coverages that are out there, but anyway. The number one is always, "How did you get into this business anyway?" You want to know their background in that business so you can learn what they know and talk to them the way they talk about their business. That's critical.
--:-- The second one is as critical: "Please share your marketing plan with me." Are they going to expand? Are they going to go all virtual? Is their website going to be their main source of revenue? Are they going to go international? Are they hoping to increase revenue by three times? You need to understand that when you come back and model your program.
--:-- The third one, and the only insurance question because we're comp people, is: "Please share with me how you felt when an employee suffered an injury and how your insurance company took care of you and your injured employee." The reason for that question is a BOR opportunity. If they say they didn't like what the company did, then getting them to sign a BOR may not be the right thing. If they liked it, then it comes down to you, not the company—which is what you want. What you're going to provide for them is an error-free, overcharge-free program. I'm betting most of your listeners' clients don't know what their lowest possible mod could be. We go into that in the course, as you know.
--:-- The fourth one is: "How do you like to communicate?" The fifth one is: "When I come back to present, do you like 30,000 feet?" So those are the five all-the-time ones. With that, you have a checklist. Everybody knows checklists. The metaphor for that is when you go onto an airplane—in those days when we will again—most of us look to the left because it's habit to look into the cockpit. Typically we'll see the pilot or co-pilot filling out a checklist. People are familiar with checklists. Compare that to your implementation checklist at the end of your present report of findings to show the buyer how you operate. If they don't know, maybe fear will set in. But when you have a checklist at the front end and a checklist at the back end, your buyer is going to feel more comfortable.
--:-- Host: Yeah. I think that's a really interesting point. Creating that type of process, a checklist-based process, has never been my strong suit. A strength of mine is that I move fast. A weakness is that I move fast and I don't slow down to put some of these processes in place. But I have started to do it. I have found in the few interactions with clients that I've had where I've started to use my standard documentation, it provides security to people. It's almost like they want to see that you have this defined. My perception would be that you want to be loose and engaged and back and forth, confident and off the cuff, and that a checklist takes you away from that. But the opposite is actually true. The client wants to see you going, "Yep, we got this squared away, and that squared away. Okay, seven things, boom, check number seven. We're in good shape. I know exactly what you want. You know that I have the information. Here it is. Let's move on to the next step." It provides peace and security that you actually have a process that you're following.
--:-- Preston Diamond: Do you know anybody who's never made a checklist?
--:-- Host: Do I know anyone who's ever not made one? Most people have at some point in their life, right?
--:-- Preston Diamond: Yeah. In the morning, come in, "I'm going to do these five things today," or before I go home last night, or "We're going to buy these groceries." Checklists are part of American life. If you fit in—the old saying I've used forever—if you can see John Smith through John Smith's eyes, you'll sell John Smith what John Smith buys. Understanding your buyer and not using insurance language, creating insurance understanding, are the heart of a great program. People buy people, they don't buy things.
--:-- Host: So for everyone who's listening, I'd like you to spend the rest of our time together talking a little bit about the Institute, about what the Institute is about, why you got it started, who considers joining, who are the people who become part of your organization?
--:-- Preston Diamond: Thank you for that question. I met a consultant in a hot tub in 1977, which was a watershed point for me. I invited him to come to our agency in Southern California. We were a couple hundred miles away. He came up. He wasn't busy. We were doing pretty much what he would recommend to any of his clients. He was an icon in the industry. He sadly died at 52. Back in those days, he had a Volkswagen van. He would consult with an agency during the day, and at night he'd go back to his van, type up the report, and leave it at the front door of the agency when he drove on to the next appointment overnight someplace close. He taught me that. I consulted with a number of agencies, and that led me to over 400 plus agencies over a period of time. I've spoken to a number of groups.
--:-- When I was speaking to a group out in Las Vegas in about 1995, an agent there came up at the end and said, "I like what you said. I'm a comp guy. Can you help me?" So we formed a relationship. Then I worked with a nice comp agent in California who wanted to do like we're doing. It morphed into the Institute. We moved back to Chapel Hill, North Carolina in '97, up to Asheville in '04. My wife and I would drive around the country with me consulting. She was a champ—spent the day in the hotel room reading, then we'd go to dinner. We'd drive back to North Carolina or California, and we'd spend time sightseeing. I spread my gigs far enough apart so we'd make a lot of pleasure to see the country. It's great driving around the country and finding things you read about, and all of a sudden you're there.
--:-- We started the Institute in 2001, 30 days after 9/11. Because I had consulted around the country, I had a cadre of a lot of agents I knew. They were handpicked to come and critique us. From there it started. Our daughter was going to school in Virginia and came home for one semester and happened to meet Kevin during that semester. He's a techie through and through. He got his first computer at age eight. He went to North Carolina State, a techie there. Because he was dating and then married our daughter, he helped us with our stuff because neither of us were technologically handy. That led to him coming aboard.
--:-- It was something that happened based upon my consulting. No agent treated workers' comp as an insurance policy because every state has the same policy. There can be no value ads. There can't be other stuff you can throw onto it except the right endorsements because of the hazard. Agents didn't pay attention to comp. Commissions were the lowest. Every policy was the same. They couldn't differentiate themselves. Little did they realize that workers' comp is incredibly complex, especially today when there are so many multi-state employers, because every state makes their own rules and regulations, all moderated by NCCI and 37.
--:-- Host: You were saying when you first started to break up a little bit, you were talking about NCCI.
--:-- Preston Diamond: Oh, before then. Back then, not the laptop. No, before the laptop. 37 or 39 states are NCCI. The rest are independent states. Four states are monopolistic. There was a great opportunity because agents didn't treat workers comp as an insurance policy. It was just "comp is comp is comp. You can't add value to it." The most important part of comp are injured employees, obviously, and all of that was delegated to insurance companies. Mods could rewrap if the injury wasn't managed correctly. There was a lot of opportunity in a complex coverage policy that has a lot of moving parts. It encompasses money. You pay a premium. You have an audit. Money. An employee suffers an injury—doesn't have a claim, suffers an injury—his money. Reporting date to NCCI or your independent bureau is money. Renewal is money. Comp is really more money than it is insurance. It's the only insurance that the buyer has complete charge over because of safety, because of preventing errors and overcharges, because of getting to their lowest possible cost. No agents knew that back at that time, or very few.
--:-- That's what we focused on. At our very first Institute in 2001, we offered everybody a laptop as a teaser. I thought that would do it because we're teaching them comp, which everybody sold. It's a takeover insurance, which is another great thing. You don't have to sell a new policy like EPLI or cyber where people say, "Well, I've never had a claim, I'm not going to buy it." Comp, we knew every agent sold. The computer was to entice them to come, but I was the one who called to fill the seats. Most people never wanted to talk about the comp. They wanted to know what kind of computer they were going to get and how it was specced. That was a disaster because I'm certainly not a techie. We cut that out after about five phone calls. I went back to convincing them to come, and we charged a lot of money to do that.
--:-- The write-ups for the first one were great. They were hand-picked to come—agents I had worked with, so we had a strong relationship because I consulted in their agency. It grew and morphed into a membership organization instead of a training session like CIC. Instead of paying to get trained, we made it a membership organization where we train you, we certify you, and we hold your hand to make money. Kevin is at 981 mod worksheets analyzed since 2011. We'll hit a thousand in a month or two or three. We have records of being able to help employers. One advisor has been an advisor since 2004. I challenged him to keep records. He's very detailed and kept great records from 2004. We have a testimonial from him that he's helped employers reduce costs and return money over 50 million bucks in that time, and he's tripled their revenue.
--:-- It's the only insurance where you have a 100% hold on the employer's money. We say all the time: lead with comp, prove yourself, and let the buyer beg you to take over the rest of the insurance. I try all the time to get some producer in the agency to only be the comp person. We have a few agencies like that. We have one that we work with closely where they always team sell. One of them is the liability person and the other is the comp person. Whoever gets the appointment takes the other one, who doesn't say a word unless spoken to, but is introduced as a liability person. So when the comp is put to bed, the liability person can call. Very smart.
--:-- It's morphed into that. The only state we can't seem to get into that we're dying to is Hawaii. We have an agent in Alaska who's great and active. We've had a few hits in Hawaii. I've tried a few times, but that hasn't worked. We've done a number of agencies in-house, and we have a number of groups. We're doing an Institute next week or early February for an agency with 47 locations, or 37 locations. Virtually makes it happen. They wouldn't bring anybody to one location, but now they can have 30 offices sit in.
--:-- Host: The NYCIRB in New York has been interesting. I work in Connecticut, Vermont, and New York primarily, appointing a few other states. Most of my clients are inside of there. Vermont and New York are the bellwethers. Just keeping it straight in my head between Vermont being NCCI and New York with the NYCIRB—those differences can be a little... just trying to keep them all straight, how this one works, the difference in the rating, getting all the information. If you work primarily in NCCI states, it's nice because at least they're operating under the same organization. I know the states tend to differ too, but New York is always its own monster.
--:-- Preston Diamond: Well, and you have it like we do. We're 50 miles within four states. Send employees to another state to work, it's a different rule maybe. Kevin lives with all of this every day and he loves it. It's every day at NCCI on their website to see what's new. We have agencies in California—they have their own bureau. North Carolina has their own bureau. We have a number of agencies in your state. We have them in states with their own bureau, and there are state exceptions. We get into all of that stuff.
--:-- Host: So if someone wants to learn more about joining or just what membership looks like, where do they go? What's the best place for them to head?
--:-- Preston Diamond: Sure. There's workcompprofessionals.com. That's a good starting point. Certainly you can email Kevin at iwcpro.com or Preston at iwcpro.com.
--:-- Host: Guys, I will say, if you're looking to really become an expert in comp and drill down into the nitty gritty of what's going on, be surrounded by other people who appreciate the nitty gritty of the coverage—particularly when you're dealing with multiple states and all the different facets that come with workers comp in general—I think the work that you and Kevin are doing, I can't speak highly enough. I think you guys are doing some of the best work in our industry for any particular coverage, but workers comp especially. I'm building my agency around comp. I'm excited that you were able to give us so much time, and I appreciate it. I hope that more people, if they weren't aware, are going to give your organization a second look or a first look. There's tons of free resources on your site. There's a newsletter they can subscribe to, right?
--:-- Preston Diamond: Correct. WorkComp Advisory, which we've been doing since 2006. No marketing. We private label it for your agency. There's an extra charge over Institute fees. And I didn't mention Teresa, our injury management person. Teresa was a claims manager at Disney World for seven years. She is a licensed adjuster and she worked at Disney World for 14 years. She manages injuries for our advisors who have larger accounts, retro plans, or things of that nature based upon her time. She's helped advisors manage claims very well. Obviously, look at her background.
--:-- Host: That's tremendous.
--:-- Preston Diamond: So we hold your hand after you take the course and get certified. The Master Work Comp Advisor course is free form. The Certified Work Comp Advisor course, we filed for continuing ed. We provide continuing ed for Georgia, North Carolina, Virginia, and Missouri. We've just filed for four more states, and we're going to bleed it out four states at a time. Continuing ed is part of the Certified Work Comp Advisor course. The Master Work Comp Advisor course is more limited in attendance, not as structured, and the tests are different. We go way deep into the manual in the master course, and deeper into how to get and keep clients once you learn the process. Thank you for asking us. Appreciate everything.
--:-- Host: Well, thank you. I wish you nothing but the best. Thanks for coming on the show.
--:-- Preston Diamond: Yeah. And I didn't mean to call you a different name than Ryan. I wandered there for a moment.
--:-- Host: That went right over my head. I didn't even realize that.
--:-- Preston Diamond: Thanks, guy. Keep well, please. Stay safe. Be good.
--:-- [Advertisement voiceover: Close twice as many deals by this time next week. Sound impossible? It's not with the One Call Close System. You'll stop chasing leads and start closing deals in one call. This is the exact method we used to close 1200 clients in under three years during the pandemic. No fluff, no endless follow-ups, just results fast. Based in behavioral psychology and battle tested, the One Call Close System eliminates excuses and gets the prospect saying yes more than you ever thought possible. If you're ready to stop losing opportunities and start winning, visit masteroftheclose.com. That's masteroftheclose.com. Do it today.]
