--:-- Ryan Hanley: In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home... Hello everyone and welcome back to the show. I hope you're absolutely dominating this first month of 2022. I know we are here at Rogue, just feeling real good about 2022.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I know you just never know what a new year is going to bring, and 2022 is already shaping up to be a kind of transitional game-changer year where we really start to execute on our vision here at Rogue Risk. I hope you feel the same about your business or whatever life goals you have.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Today's guest really doesn't need much of an introduction. It's Bradley Flowers from the Insurance Guys podcast. You know, the less good-looking half of the Insurance Guys podcast. His partner in crime, Scott Howell. Bradley's just a tremendous dude. We have gotten to know each other very well and chat quite often over the last few years. I love the way he thinks about the business. I love the way he handles his business. It's not always exactly the same way I would do it, but Bradley's a thoughtful dude. He's an ambitious dude. I am just so pumped to reconnect on the show and share that conversation with you guys. I think you're going to love this episode, so spend some time with it.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Guys, one quick ask I have for you. I don't normally ask these kinds of things, but if you're not subscribed to the show, I'd love for you to do that. If you haven't left us a rating or review, I'd love for you to do that as well. That just helps push the show out to more insurance pros so they can listen and join our community and share what we're doing. And if you have guests that you want on the show, let me know. I keep a list of guests that I want to have, and then some just pop up or get intro'd to me, which is awesome. That's kind of how we do it. It's probably not as formal as you actually think. Some people think I have some master plan. I don't really. But if you have someone you want to hear from, or someone maybe I just don't know and you think they'd be a great guest, send them over. Ryan at ryanhanley.com is the best way to get that in front of me.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I just appreciate you guys. I appreciate you guys for listening. I probably don't say that enough, but I do. Before we get to Bradley, I want to give a quick shout out to a couple of our sponsors today, the people that make this show possible. First, Coterie Insurance. Guys, we are writing a tremendous amount of business with Coterie because they're just so easy. It's just so incredibly easy to get GL, BOP, professional liability, put that in front of your client. The amount of time that it takes is just crazy easy. I don't know what else to say. It's good coverage. Coterie's a great company. I love what they're doing. They're going to be a big part of the mix for us moving forward. I couldn't be happier with our relationship with Coterie and excited that they're a sponsor of the show.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: So go to Coterie, C-O-T-E-R-I-E, insurance.com, Coterieinsurance.com, or just Google Coterie, C-O-T-E-R-I-E, and check them out. If you want to sign up and start writing business with Coterie, I think that's a good idea, especially if you're in the small business space, especially if you're primarily personal lines and you'd like to get into small business, but you're having trouble getting a commercial lines appointment from one of the traditional markets because of all the crazy things. I had someone, I actually had a carrier say to me that they didn't want to appoint us in a state because of the $250 licensing fee. It's like, oh my God, is that really a barrier to entry? Like, am I not going to make you $250? It's just, oh, whatever. So these are the kind of problems solved by Coterie. They just don't even have that mindset at all, which is amazing. So C-O-T-E-R-I-E, Coterieinsurance.com.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I want to give a quick shout out to my boy Chris Langell at Advisory Evolved. Chris is not technically a sponsor of the show, but I always like to give him a shout out because I do get a lot of people who message me about our website and about websites in general and just digital presence. Chris and his team have been my web designer for more than a decade. I trust him implicitly. I love the work he does. Websites are fast. They look great. SEO built if you're going to do that work. And then the whole local business marketing thing that he has where they're doing the Facebook ads and the Google ads on top of that can really help you drive traffic and grow your business. So just want to give a quick shout out to Chris Langell and his team at Advisory Evolved. Go to advisorevolved.com today.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: All right guys, let's get on to Bradley Flowers.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Say something. Go Bills. Check one, two. Bills check.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Got it. Got it. Okay, sorry. So my wi-fi at the office is god awful, so I booked the studio just so we didn't have any issues.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Roger that. I'm getting a pretty decent echo though. Shut the door. Can you maybe turn this mic off?
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Okay, shut the door. Let's see.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Is bad wi-fi at the office like an Alabama thing?
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, yeah. Is it good now? Yeah, I can hear you. If you can hear me, you sound good.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, we just got off the call with Mathis, Andy Matheson, and it was awful, so I came here.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Dude, there's nothing worse than bad wi-fi. Legitimately, it will send me over the edge. It will send me over the edge, mostly because I'm impatient.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Well, it's that and it's like, I don't know, I just, why is it not working? I work from home most days, and most days we have Spectrum or whatever, so the internet is fine. I won't say that it's blazing fast, but on most days it's probably fine. And then you'll just have these days where nothing works and everything's like button click, hourglass spinning, and you're just like, oh my god.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: In Alabama, that means you got to go put more diesel in it.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Pull the pull start, you know? Yeah, crank. Get the crank out, start cranking something.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: So what's going on, man?
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Man, just trying to... Just hired somebody new in the agency today. Sent the offer, accepted. Nice. Starting January the 3rd. Planning our event with Glovebox and trying to manage my various projects that have gotten out of hand.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: What position did you hire?
--:-- Bradley Flowers: We call it an agent, but it's a producer.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Gotcha. Yeah, we were... Okay, sorry. We're just really top heavy. We have one producer that accounts for about 80% of the office's production, and I need to balance that out some more. The answer was to hire somebody new. I'm hiring a guy who's actually my best friend for 14 years. We're still friends, we just didn't hang out every day. He reached out to me to talk about working together. I sent him a sales assessment and he blew it through the water, like the best assessment I've ever seen. And I've assessed 200 people. So we're going to give him a shot. He's got a couple niches he knows about, industries that he's been in. One of them is the fitness industry. I'm sure you appreciate that. I don't know, we're going to see what happens. I'm having him work with Mick. Mick, looking at his personality test, thinks he can turn him into a rockstar.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: When you do a sales assessment, is that a special test? Or is it like you give them a DISC test?
--:-- Bradley Flowers: So I have a vendor that I use for it, but I do a DISC and a Sales IQ. They call it Sales IQ. HireSense is the name of the company, but that's not the vendor I'm going through. The DISC assessment is incredibly in-depth. It's like 68 pages. And then the Sales IQ basically breaks down the sales process in 10 categories. So like prospecting, closing, assessing, that sort of thing. It gives you the percentage of the amount of time they get the right answer on the sales questions and the percentage of the amount of time they get the second right answer. So it can show you if somebody doesn't get it on both, and it shows you where they compare to other salespeople. The test gets smarter as it goes because it's comparing you to the last person that took it. So it shows you where they really struggle.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: What I always look for is somebody who's a natural closer. I can fill the other gaps in. Most of the people that we don't hire due to the assessment is because they don't have the closing piece, but they have the other pieces. To me, that person struggles indefinitely. I don't think you can teach closing. I think you can give them some tools that help, but I always look for somebody that's got that fire that they can close, and then we can fill everything else up.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: What do you mean by closing? Like, what is that? What does a closer have?
--:-- Bradley Flowers: The people that we have hired that have struggled sales-wise just struggle to almost get people over the finish line. My old office was a square. I was in there with everybody, so I heard all of these conversations. I would just hear them on the phone with deals, and I'd be like, "Oh, if you just said this, they would have bought," or, "That was a buying signal and you ignored it." There's just things that you pick up being in it every single day that someone who is not in it or doesn't have those skills can do. It comes down to asking for the business. I've had a hard time teaching that. It's more me than it is them. So I look for somebody that already has it and already knows, "Okay, that was a buying signal. Let's move forward."
--:-- Ryan Hanley: For me, the big one is call reluctance. If you're willing to pick up a phone, I feel like everything else falls into place. So I do a DISC. We use Mick too, so everyone that's listening, we're talking about Mickhon Premier Strategy Box, the goat of rev ops. So our process is Sarah, my operations manager, she reaches out to everyone first. What she's really looking for is, is this person an idiot or not? Will they get along with us? Are they a good fit? She kind of does the first pass. That way, if you get somebody in there that's bad, you're like, "Hey, you're the one that's your fault." I also know that she is much more, she's probably a much stronger filter than I would be. I'm like, "Oh, this person's nice." You're probably like me in that you can see the good in everybody. Somebody could show up not sober and not clothed, but you saw this little sparkle in their eye and you're like, "I could turn that into something."
--:-- Bradley Flowers: But they were funny.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah. No, she's got a healthy mix of being able to give people a shot, but at the same time pick out the bullshit. So she's a really good first pass. After that, we give them a DISC test. We don't do a sales assessment though. I do kind of like that. So we do a DISC test, then I send that DISC test to Mick. Mick gives us thumbs up, thumbs down for the next conversation. If that conversation is with me, only for producers or insurance advisors. For our client success or account management staff, my head of account management interviews them. I don't even get involved. But for the salespeople, I come in and I literally just pound them on the phone. How much? What do you do? It's a whole bunch of questions. All I'm trying to get at is, are you going to pick up the phone? Because I am convinced more than ever, every day I become more convinced that this is a phone business.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: At different times in my career, I would have fought that. I would have said, "You can automate this and automate that." And I'm sure there are ways to do it, but if you want to be really successful, you pick up the phone. It doesn't mean it has to be an hour-long phone call. I think that's the major thing that I'm figuring out. A three-minute phone call, you can do tons of automation, digital stuff, comms. A three-minute phone call is all it might be, but those three minutes are really important. If you're willing to do that, I feel like the rest, that is a bellwether for you being able to do all the rest: ask for the close, get info, follow up, all the things. Because if you're scared to pick up the phone and talk to somebody, you will never do any of the rest. You can't close on text message, not unless you know the person.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: A good salesperson too, we have found that as well. Some of the biggest accounts that we've closed, our two niches right now are habitational and trucking, which obviously have the potential to have some pretty big premium on them. Some of the biggest accounts we've closed have been super short phone calls. A good producer can cut through all that BS and get straight to the point and the pain point of knowing what that person's dealing with, where somebody else is out here in la-la land.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: We have a similar process. We send people to our website, which is crap right now, but we're in the process of changing to a new one. They fill a form out. They get an email. That's our email interview. There are three questions. Two of them don't mean anything. The third one is, "Do you prefer higher salary, lower commission, or lower commission, higher salary?" I'm looking for low salary, high commission because I want somebody that wants to go get it. They reply to that email. That weeds out a lot of people. Then they go to a phone interview with me. It's very much like this conversation. It's just, "Tell me about yourself." We're just having a chat. I'm being good old nice Bradley. After that, we do the DISC and the Sales IQ. The third step is an in-person interview with me, still very laid back. The last interview is a team interview. We do a team interview with everybody, and if it's not a unanimous yes, we don't hire them. It doesn't matter how much I like them because I want it to be the team's decision. We've had people that worked with us that didn't quite fit in. This person had a problem with this person philosophically. And it's going to be, "Hey, y'all were the one that hired this person, not me."
--:-- Bradley Flowers: So that's our process. We found it to be pretty time-consuming, but what it does is it weeds out the people who just want a quick job. It also gives you quality. Have we gotten somebody that was really good that we skipped the process? Absolutely. We've had some people that are like, "Hey, this guy's going to get picked up. We need to rush through the process." But for the most part, we stick to it.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: That team thing also gives you a good excuse not to hire liberals. You know what I mean? You can do your team just going to be like, "We don't philosophically agree with this person."
--:-- Bradley Flowers: We have had someone that gave an answer in the poll. Not whether Republican or Democrat. I'm as pretty down the middle as you can get to be a 33-year-old white man in Alabama. But we have had some people that gave answers that were extreme politically on both sides. I don't want either one of those people.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, you may have to edit that out. But no, I'm with you. I don't care what you believe. I support the fact that you can believe what you believe, but don't bring that BS into my office.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Yeah.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: This is one of the ones that I struggle with. I honestly don't care what your political affiliation is or your affiliation with anything. I mean, Jesus, I'd hire a Patriots fan.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: I don't either.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, you know, but I have Alabama fans that work here. You're trying to find people who don't take themselves and their viewpoints too seriously. That's one of the things that I really like about our current team. We're up to eight people, including me now. We hired two account managers on Monday, or they started with Killer Hunt Monday. We don't have an office though. Someone said to me, "How the hell do you have all these people?" And I said, "I don't have an office. I don't pay rent. It's called www."
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Yeah, yeah. I have people all over the place. I have a podcast that subsidizes my agency partially. I don't have an office. I don't have to pay for... Think about your total bill for your office. I don't pay any of that. Zero. Nothing. So yes, I pay for people. I have this little setup. It's about $1,500 that everyone gets when they start: dual monitors, computer, camera, headset. It's $1,500, but that's one time. Bam, that goes out. We have that all set up on Amazon. But then that's it. A couple $15 here, $20 here for different services that we use. But the cost of not having an office, as much as I do miss having an office sometimes, it has allowed me to add, legitimately, I was doing the math, it has allowed me to add two people that I couldn't have if I had an office. I'd have two less people if I had an office.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: You're in New York, because I'm in Alabama, so it's a little different. You would be paying a lot more for the office that I have than I am. Before anything, I'd probably be paying $1,700 to $3,000 a month in rent for a decent office space. $1,700 would be like a little shady, everyone be out the door by five. $3,000 would be a nice office park in one of the suburbs. And then all the other costs that come with it: electric, wi-fi, internet, all utilities, everything that you'd have to pay as part of your rent. In addition to all the stuff to put in there. Not having that basically gets me two extra people. The big thing we have is just snacks and office supplies, like printer ink and crap like that. That has been number three on my P&L of the most expensive thing. I think I order something from Amazon every single day that we need for the office. I went to the grocery store this morning and spent $70 on snacks and drinks and stuff for the office.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: What are you printing?
--:-- Ryan Hanley: We don't print a lot. I just use that every now and then. In fact, I will purposely sometimes not buy printer ink when the printer's low to encourage my people not to print. Every now and then we have something we have to print, but usually it's because we're pretty heavily agency bill. Sometimes we have to print stuff and mail it to clients.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: We could completely operate without paper, completely. The only time we have to is we just finished getting licensed in the continental United States. By the end of this week, we will be licensed in 48 states.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Awesome.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: It is. I want to give a shout out to ILSA, which I never know. The insurance licensing service is freaking awesome. I don't know what the ILSA stands for, but it's I-L-S-A. If it wasn't for them, this wouldn't have happened. This is like my thank you speech at the Emmys. "If it wasn't for ILSA, this would not have happened." They just thought, literally I get an email. They're like, "Sign this," and I got to print something out and sign it. I scan it and send it back to them and then sign this. That's the only thing legitimately that I've had to print in months and months are all these forms that go along with getting licensed in all these states. So it's been that part. They're killer, man.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Are they all by easy links?
--:-- Bradley Flowers: No, they did just get bought by Resource Pro, I think just bought them. Their logo is eerily similar to Easy Links' logo.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, I've noticed that. We started using them. Actually, I heard you mention them on the podcast. Tim Ferriss talks about leaving your business for a month abruptly, and then everything that breaks shows you what you need to fix. Also, knowing that you're leaving leads to you creating processes around that that you otherwise wouldn't have. I went out on this two-month paternity leave, even though Joe Rogan thinks paternity leave is for wimps. Well, I had to think about a lot of that stuff. It could both be an awesome paternity leave and you could be a wimp. Both of those things could be true at the same time.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Yeah.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: So when I got back from the leave, I took my entire team to lunch. One of my guys was like, "So what did you think about Joe Rogan saying that paternity leave was for wimps?" I was like, "When did he say that?" He said, "While you were out." I was like, "The fact that I can walk away and this bad boy still run and make me money while I'm not here is not that wimpy." But anyway, that was one of the things. I was like, "Crap, what happens if somebody's license comes up and they need to handle it?" So I reached out to ILSA. It was a little clunky in the beginning, but we kind of got things going and it's good.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: I've kind of found that with them. I don't necessarily think it's their fault. I think just this process of licensing and getting all the documents takes a little bit of ramp up to kind of like, "Here's all my stuff. Okay. They sort through it. What do you have? What don't we have?" One of the things that they helped school me to was filing with the Secretary of States of the different states. A lot of people just get licensed and they're like, "Oh, I'm good. Hey, I'm licensed." Well, yeah, kinda. But in most states, not every state, but in most states, if you don't also file with the Secretary of State's office that you are operating in the state, you can get fines, you can have tax levies, there's all kinds of different stuff.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I've mentioned this before, and I think you have too. I'm just an enormous proponent of, as a leader, having the self-awareness to understand what you're good at and what you're not good at, and then outsource everything else. That's a tough thing to do because you're spending money. To outsource stuff costs money, there's no doubt. But in the back end, if I were spending the time to have to figure out how to get licensed in every one of these states, and then setting up mechanisms in my agency to monitor when something is due, what needs to be... Oh my God. Do I pay a fee for that? Yes, but it is freaking nice to be able to email someone.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Yeah, $25.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: When you're doing that many states, there's a fee. They're getting paid for what they're doing, there's no doubt. But that being said, I now have a person, Amanda, that when I have a problem, I just email Amanda and I go, "Hey Amanda, this is happening. What's up?" And she's like, "Oh, we got that. Don't worry about it," or, "Hey, we just need to sign something." I have zero brain cycles associated with licensing other than every other year I need to do my CE so that I can re-up my New York license. Outside of that, I don't have to do anything else.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: You and I have a mutual friend, I'm not going to say their name, that had a producer that did their CE but did not renew the license and wrote business for like a year and a half and didn't say anything before anybody noticed. Had to self-report and it turned into this whole cluster. That's whatever. I can pay to keep that from happening short of putting myself out of business. I will do that.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Dude, I completely agree. These are the kind of things that you really don't want to be figuring out how to do this stuff. I get it, not probably not many people listening to this are in multiple states or are in as many states as maybe I or you are. So it may not be that big a deal. If you're just in one state, it's probably a lot easier just to manage it in house. That'll make sense. But I can't help but believe that the days of the community-based single state independent agency are waning. That's not a knock on the independent agency system at all. I just don't know that we can be successful being a local generalist moving into the future.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Can a local generalist sustain? Yes, they can. Are they going to be the business? No. But could you spin up a local generalist agency? Because this is my bellwether: we have a major talent transition that's happening. We have an entire generation, really the first broad spectrum generation of insurance agents in this country, are phasing out. This is a new thing for our industry. Other industries have had multiple iterations. I know there are third and fourth generations. Those same people want to shit on you for saying what you just said, but they're the ones selling to Hub. They're the ones selling to the big boys. They're not selling to the other small independent down the street. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: I know.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: That's one of my big beefs. I was talking to somebody at an event. I had like four weeks in a row where I was on the road for different events that I was doing this fall. I was talking to somebody and I can't remember who it was or where I was, so I apologize for this being so ambiguous. But in one sentence, they were questioning a comment that I made on stage similar to what I'm saying. And the next sentence, they brought up the fact that they were selling to a big roll-up. I was like, "Hmm, let's just dissect this for a second." So you're giving me crap, or not really giving me crap, but he was strongly questioning the merits of my argument related to this comment that you couldn't spin up a local generalist community agency.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Not taking into account the fact when you're speaking, you have to take a hard line on something.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, also, I can give two flying shits about what anyone thinks who's on the floor, because fuck them. So I have the microphone. I get to see.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Yeah. So I got the bag.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah. So also, look, that's my perspective. So that's what it is. That all being said, I'm fine with him questioning. I was interested in his take. I was interested in why he thought you could do that, despite the fact that all evidence and all statistics would point otherwise. But then to take such a hard line on that old school tact, and then to tell me that you're selling to a big roll-up, that just feels kind of smarmy to me. Basically what you're saying is, "It can only be done the way I did it, even though I don't think that's possible. But when you do, screw all you guys. I'm cashing out for the biggest nut I can get and rolling up into all the organizations that are going to end up taking all your lunch when they backdoor and advertise into your little community and create all the mechanisms as to why you can't build a local community today."
--:-- Ryan Hanley: To me, it's like the people that post on Facebook that Facebook is ruining the world. "Social media is going to be the death of America. By God, I'm not deleting my account. That's how I reach my people." I feel like in general, and I talked to some of my friends about this stuff, but I feel like in general, we're just living through a big idiot test right now. I feel like God and the angels or whoever is up there doing whatever is like, "You know what?"
--:-- Ryan Hanley: They're probably scared to come down. Let's play a little game. Let's create all these nonsensical, counterintuitive arguments. Let's just throw all this nonsense out there and see what these morons believe and do.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: But, you know, back to the Main Street Generalist. I don't think there's anything wrong with being a Main Street Generalist. I did a talk two weeks ago to NAFA, which is the big life insurance association. The talk was on embedded insurance, which I think is partly one of the biggest threats to the Main Street Generalists and also one of the biggest opportunities for them. I was talking to a lot of the people in the room, and I asked if anyone had heard of the term embedded insurance. Nobody raised their hand.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I'm not saying independent agents are going away. But to the Main Street Generalists, your target client base is going to get smaller and smaller. You're not going to be able to grow like you grew. Are there exceptions? Yes. Are there people that are going to DM me after and say, "We did it"? Awesome. A lot of those people are my friends. But I think people need to be looking outside of that. I tell people every single day, and I've said it twice today, Portal has no interest in being the Main Street agency. That's not what we're trying to do.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Yeah. If you have a problem with this, definitely DM Bradley, don't DM me, because I could give two shits about your opinion. It's not that I don't care. I just... look, here's what I'll tell you. I don't see embedded insurance as an opportunity for a Main Street Generalist agency because I don't think they're going to invest. It's too big of a game. It takes too much time and capital.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: I agree with your first statement that embedded insurance is the largest, the first concept I've seen where I've said, "This could actually disrupt a large portion of the independent insurance industry." Here's why I believe that. Embedded insurance as a concept—and I'm broad stroking, but just to give anyone unfamiliar with the topic what we're talking about—embedded insurance is the idea that either inside a platform or inside a product, insurance happens natively.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Inside a product would be Tesla. Tesla sells you a car and a little schmoogey box that you click when you're checking out that says, "Do you want Tesla insurance to go with this for $107 a month?" Boom, that's embedded insurance. It's part of the checkout process, just like adding a larger screen or the ability to play asteroids on your game console. I haven't bought a Tesla yet. And it's not just Tesla. Toyota is doing this right now. I wouldn't be surprised if someday purchasing a new home doesn't happen this way, or it happens with a lot of products today. Drones, right? There are all these different things where embedded insurance is starting to leak in. It's huge in other parts of the world. It is coming like a freight train to the United States.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Now we have natural governors to that based on the 50-state regulation system, the state-based regulation system. Some of the lobbyists and special interest groups obviously aren't going to let that happen. So there are a bunch of things that will slow it, but it's coming. It's absolutely coming.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: So that's embedded in a product. Embedded in a platform would be like, I use Square for business to run my restaurant. Square every time I log in says, "Hey, want a better business quote? Click this button and we'll rate-compare you against five companies." Right inside a platform that you use every single day, they're pushing insurance.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Why do I think this is the first real disruptive case in our industry? Because it doesn't allow business insurance to get to the local level. That's what scares the shit out of me about it. It's why I've done a lot of the things that I've done, why we're broad spectrum national, and we suffer a lot of pain. We pay a hefty price in the early days of our agency for going the route we did. But I saw very early—or at least I believe, whether this happens or not—I believe there will be a day where a lot of personal insurance, a lot of small business insurance, just will never get down to our level. Someone will sign up for their LLC and they'll already have purchased business insurance. LegalZoom has it, right? These things are going to progress. They're going to become more natural, more native. People are going to get more comfortable doing it.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: As they sign up for these services and it's a button click to add insurance, they're going to do it. More and more people are going to do it. Now all of a sudden you're like, "Hey, I'm the local agency." And they're like, "Yeah, I already got coverage here. And I got coverage here." And you're like, "You just started your business. You should have come to me." And they're like, "Yeah, but it was a button click with LegalZoom and it was a hundred bucks. I figured I'd just get it done." Now you've got to wedge them out and talk to them. That to me is a major issue. And guess what? Convenience beats price 98% of the time.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah. Yeah. And there's people listening to this. I'm hearing Scott Howell in my head right now saying, "Well, what about retention?" Yep. And that's true. One of the things a lot of these DTCs have not figured out yet is the retention piece. That's where the agent comes in, the relationship. But the problem is, if the deal never makes it to you, then that disrupts that entire process where you can no longer sell the way that you've always sold.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Insurance is not the thing. There are not very many people who wake up in the morning and say, "Man, I'm really glad I have good coverage." It's the thing that gets you to the thing. I've always said that. We do one of our niches on personal lines: new homebuyers. One of the things that I think separates us from some of the people around here is we recognize that the insurance is not the crescendo moment of the home buying process. It's the thing that gets you to the thing. One thing that I love about the embedded insurance movement is it's the physical iteration of that. It's the physical presence of "this is just insurance to get you there."
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Yeah. But to be honest, I do think there is an opportunity. I think there is an opportunity for people as long as they open up their minds to it and get comfortable with it. I'm working on an embedded insurance play right now. I've been working on it for a year. It's about to come to fruition. If we're able to pull it off, it will be the single biggest thing I've ever done in insurance. If my broke ass can figure it out and do it—and I know I probably have some built-in advantages with the podcast thing, I get that—but if I can do it with the very, very small amount of money that I started my agency with, I think anybody can figure it out.
--:-- [Host speaks directly to audience]
--:-- Ryan Hanley: What's up, guys? Sorry to take you away from the episode. But as you know, we do not run ads on this show. In exchange for that, I need your help. If you're loving this episode, if you enjoy this podcast, whether you're watching on YouTube or listening on your favorite podcast platform, I would love for you to subscribe, share, comment if you're on YouTube. Leave a rating review if you're on Spotify or Apple iTunes. This helps the show grow. It helps me bring more guests in. We have a tremendous lineup of people coming in, men and women who've done incredible things, sharing their stories around peak performance, leadership, growth, sales—the things that are going to help you grow as a person and grow your business. But they all check out comments, ratings, reviews. They check out all this information before they come on. So as I reach out to more and more people and want to bring them in and share their stories with you, I need your help. Share the show. Subscribe if you're not subscribed. I'd love for you to leave a comment about the show because I read all the comments. Or if you're on Apple or Spotify, leave a rating review. I love you for listening to this show. I hope you enjoy listening as much as I do creating the show for you. All right, I'm out of here. Peace.
--:-- [Discussion resumes]
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Let's get back to the episode. No, it has nothing to do with that. You're completely off. It has to do with the fact that you're a hustler, you're smart, you're a business developer, you're a networker. That's how you got that done. But anybody can do that.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, but look, there's a reason that you keep getting asked back to the same conferences to speak on relatively the same topics over and over again. It's because there are a few core concepts that most business owners in general, not just independent insurance agents, do not get: find out what you're good at and get out of the way for everything else.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: What happens is you have agency owners who are also chief service officer, chief revenue officer, chief insurance officer, chief marketing officer, chief sales officer, and nothing big ever gets done. They're constantly busy. I hate being busy for two reasons. One, it means I'm working on shit that I didn't choose to work on. In most cases, being busy means you're doing shit other people need done, not stuff you want to get done. Two, it limits your ability for serendipity—that random phone call, that opportunity, that conference where someone says, "Hey, I got this ticket to this thing and there's going to be people there that you should network with." And you're like, "Oh, I'm too busy. I can't go." So much of that comes down to...
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I've had people question the fact that I have an operations manager. She was my very first hire. I hired her to be an AM, immediately realized that she was not—even though she could have been a great account manager, she had a different skillset. She was a D all the way across: driver, get shit done, task oriented, hard charger, smart. So I just said, "I'm making you an account manager." I've had people for the last year go, "You're too small. You're too new. That's shit you should be doing. You're wasting money." And I'm like, "Really?" That's a vulnerability of themselves. That's their insecurities talking because they don't have that person. They're going, "I didn't hire my first person until I had a million dollars in premium." And I'm like, "Well then you're an asshole. I don't know what I'm supposed to tell you. It also took you eight years, Gerald."
--:-- Bradley Flowers: My timeline... I am not going to be happy if I hit my first million in revenue a decade into the business. That will be a complete and utter fail for me if that's the case. I look at these things and I'm like, yes, do I have to sacrifice? I don't take a salary out of the business. Granted, I am blessed similar to you. I have this podcast, I have some sponsors, I'm able to pay some bills with that, have a little walking around cash. We also have wives that are awesome too.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah. It helps that my wife is a baller blocker.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: But dude, I just think we, as leaders, have to start getting out of our own way. Have some self-awareness. If you need help with it, sit down with someone and say, "What am I good at? And what am I not good at?" Then hire those things. Sit down with your team. There are no better people to answer than the people that work for you.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: You're kind of coming back full circle to the delegation thing. The hardest thing I think to delegate are the things that you're not good at, but you like doing. That's when you can really scale your agency. People ask me all the time, "How do you do everything you're doing?" I've literally outsourced and delegated everything. Even down to when we pick up a new carrier and they want to do the agency owner Zoom call to talk about the product, I get either Kenneth, my main account manager, or a VA just to do that call and send me the high points. Hopefully they turn the camera off and they're not acting like me. But I'm literally every single thing in my day, I'm like, "Okay, how can I take this and outsource it so I don't have to do it?"
--:-- Bradley Flowers: No, no, no, dude. What that allows you to do is find, work, and nurture for a year the largest insurance deal of your career, which probably won't be the largest forever. This will be a stepping stone to the next one, to the next one. By getting all that crap off your plate—that you shouldn't be doing—you're able to go bring in a deal that changes the nature of your agency. It changes the whole level that you're playing at. If you were in the weeds hawking home and autos because you're the best salesperson in your agency and you've got to thump your chest every day, I think that's perfectly fine, but that's little fiefdom stuff. If you want to have a kingdom, if you want to grow your empire, you have to work on bigger deals. You have to work on bigger fish.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: That doesn't just mean middle market. It could mean one big deal from an insurance perspective, or it could mean a big referral partner, or it could mean nurturing. Gurley's got a great story about nurturing Central. He had called them for all these years, then he went on Carly's podcast, had more calls, and was able to bring into his agency a carrier that was incredibly important to them. Those things don't happen if you are also doing all the little shit in your agency.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Absolutely. A good example is we went to Hartford three weeks ago. I did a podcast in the Medicare space with my buddy Justin. We were talking about putting yourself in positions to succeed while also not having an agenda when you do that. I think people sometimes miss those two pieces. They'll put themselves at the right table, but then when they get there, they'll be so salesy and right-hooky that it turns everybody off. An example I gave is I went to Hartford with no agenda whatsoever to meet anyone. I happened to know that this program director was going to be there, this person was going to be there. What it does is it allows you to do things that set you up for future success because you put yourself in that position.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: My concern for our independent agency brothers and sisters is that I think more than ever—and I'm sure this has been said for 40 years, and all the gray hairs are going to go, "Ah, they were talking about that in 1982, and we got the fax machine"—but I think more than ever, the internet has created a situation where we have to think bigger. Maybe that means going from 50 miles to the entire state. Maybe it means moving into small commercial from personal lines only, or vice versa. Or purchasing a small book to get another carrier that you need. Or extending to a producer or a specialist in an area. I think we really have to start thinking bigger than just show up and write insurance every day.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: From Albany, New York, I can drop a pin in your town and market to your people. They will not know the difference between you and me. And there are 50 of me. There are other independents like me doing the same thing. There are all the nationals, all the carriers. Liberty, who's supposed to be a friend of the independents, has decided to launch 200 local locations and compete directly with us. I don't necessarily care about that. I'm just saying this is happening and it's not going to stop. Nobody could break into your backyard even 10 years ago. In 2011, even though the internet existed and YouTube and Google had some ads and Facebook, no one could break into your backyard. Nobody could get into your town. If you had your signs up and had been there for any amount of time, nobody could break in. You had that town on lockdown. Today, that is simply not the case. It can be taken from you before you even realize it's at risk.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: There were two things that I learned in my last two years when I was captive, testing things to set up to open Portal. I've never really talked about this. Both things contradict something that I think the majority of independent agents believe. The first one is you have to be in the neighborhood. You have to be the hometown agent. Everybody has to know you. I hit a stride with Facebook ads my last two years. This was pre-Zuckerberg testifying to Congress and them shutting the platform down from an advertising standpoint. I was running ads in Huntsville, which is where Scott is, six hours north, before I knew Scott. I was writing business like my hair was on fire, to use a Scott term. You know how many people asked where I was located or had a problem with the fact that I was six hours south of them? Literally zero. So that's myth number one busted. With this tool, I can advertise anywhere. People don't care. If I can solve their problem, they don't care that I'm not down the street from their house.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Number two was I was with a company called Alpha, which is a captive, Alabama's version of Farm Bureau. I didn't brand Alpha. I branded myself. I branded Sarah Land Insurance, which is where I was located. Nobody knew they were with Alpha. They never asked what carrier I was with. It was like, "Oh, I'm buying from Bradley. I'm buying from Sarah Insurance." So I branded myself, not the carrier. Those were two big lessons that play into this. People don't care. All they want you to do is solve their problem.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yesterday we wrote an account in Oregon, an account in New Jersey, and an account in Maryland. Guess how big of a deal it was that our headquarters is in Troy, New York? They didn't care. They don't even ask. They don't care what carrier you put them with. They don't care. That's not to say that the carrier doesn't matter because the carrier does matter. Quality coverage matters. The paper—I get all you super nerds and CPCUs want to nitpick every comma—but to the customer, they got a phone call immediately after they filled out a form. They got their problems solved within a few minutes. They got the insurance coverage they need to do whatever they called us for in the first place. That's the game.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Granted, when you're prospecting middle market, doing the killing commercial thing, that's a little different. You are targeting customers you want to work with that you think you have a solution for. We call this business "rogue select," $25,000 in premium or less. These people do not care. They have an insurance problem. It is our job to solve that problem. It is not our job to be their best friend. I'm not sending them a basket of cupcakes. We're going to be professional. We're going to do the right thing by them. We're going to service them well when they need it, and we're going to solve their problem in a timely manner.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I had a guy fill out a form on our website in the afternoon one day. We just missed it. We didn't get to it right away. The next day I saw that we hadn't reached out to him, so I called him at like 10:30. I said, "I'm so sorry it took us so long to get back to you." He goes, "Are you kidding me? I've reached out to like four other agencies. You're the only person I've heard back from." That to me is the big opportunity. Everyone listening to this podcast is not going to call their leads back in a timely manner. You're just not. If you did, Bradley and I wouldn't have businesses. The fact that our industry as a whole thinks weeks are an acceptable time period to get back to people—simply getting back to them in a few minutes changes the whole conversation. They are blown away. If we get back to somebody within an hour, they are like, "Oh my God, who are you? What is this magic that you're doing that you got back to so soon?"
--:-- Bradley Flowers: You just detailed exactly why I stay in the insurance industry. I have a friend in the marketing industry who has a printing company. He does big print jobs and concert posters. Really cool guy. He came to my office last week. He did a print thing for us. He said, "So tell me what you're working on." I told him a couple of my projects. He said, "So you're really serious about this insurance thing, aren't you? Why not go into another industry?" I said, "Dude, the white space in this industry—the gap—is so large that you can be a crappy businessman and be uber successful. Just doing the bare minimum a lot of times is better than what everybody else does."
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I hope everyone listening realizes that when I refer to "you" specifically, it's probably not actually you because you're taking the time to listen. I think you'll use what we're saying as keys that you can work off of. You're listening to this show, which means that you are in some capacity probably light years ahead of most of the people that you would have to work against, including other captives, other independents, certainly carrier people, certainly digital brokers who are some of the worst at this. Take this as opportunity.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: I went through the intake process with a digital broker recently. I'm not going to say who it is because I'm friendly with one of the founders. They just effed it up. It was awful. They positioned themselves—and granted, I'm in a coastal area, which is what I was testing to see if it worked—and it just proves the point that you and I have talked about. A lot of these insurtechs, all they're good at is the easy stuff. The stuff on the outskirts where the real problems are, they don't do well. I go through this whole buying process through a chat thing. The guy—it was a guy, not a robot—was ready for me to buy. I said, "Okay, does this include wind?" He said, "Oh, hang on, let me see." It was three days. He emails me back, "Oh yeah, sorry, there's no wind on this." I'm like, "What's supposed to be so great about this?" And then they were acquired for like $50 million.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Being where Rogue is going, where we're going, I've had the opportunity to have quite a few conversations with digital brokers, people who have invested in digital brokers. What I found—and this is why our mantra is "No Customer Left Behind"—is that they have figured out the technology piece. They just have no clue about insurance in most cases. Or they know insurance and they can't figure out the tech. There is an incredible amount of white space for the agencies, for the carriers, for anyone who can bridge that gap, who can be both things: a great insurance agent and a great technologist. That is incredibly rare in our space. That is the new frontier—these hybrid professionals or organizations who are both good agents and stewards of an agency, as well as technologists.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: The easy stuff is so easy. I was looking at this company, Layer, the other day because I consider them a competitor of sorts. They have a couple carriers you can rate, quote, and bind with, which is great, but nothing special. If it doesn't fit those parameters, what happens to it? Nothing. That's not really spectacular to me. That's kind of freaking boring. Nothing against them, I'm sure they'll improve. I only used them because they just raised $10 million. I thought, "Wow, there is someone out there willing to give a company $10 million just because they can rate, quote, and bind Main Street business online." That is the bar, my friends, for insurance and technology mashing together. We have just started to scratch the surface on what's possible.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: What cracks me up—I bet you, especially in commercial, this is the case—when you go to bind it, you have to have a one-day-in-the-future effective date. That's because it's not API. It's because they have somebody on the other end that is actually physically binding it. It's just an agency with a slick front end.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Yeah.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Look, I'm not saying you can't make a boatload of money that way or that it's a bad business model. All I'm trying to convey, and I know you are too, is that there is so much opportunity. I just no longer believe that opportunity exists in owning the local market. I'm not saying that can't be one of your value propositions, but if that's what you're hanging your hat on moving forward and you're not coming up with a statewide vertical or a big-time referral partnership with a multi-year contract, I feel like you are creating a major vulnerability in your agency.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: All these direct-to-consumer insurtechs, they all to some degree subscribe to the mantra of "We save you money because we don't have to pay agents 15%." There's an insurtech some of us know of that's direct-to-consumer, no agents. Somehow they're speaking at insurance agent conferences, but that's beside the point. I pressed one of the founders. I said, "Why not agents? Why not do that too?"
--:-- Bradley Flowers: And then I eventually got the real answer, which is we don't have the infrastructure to handle all the appointments. Yeah. Which is the real reason a lot of them try the direct-to-consumer thing first before going with agents. And then you see them do the kind of in-the-middle, which is, "Hey, we're going to use Agent Arrow and some of these MGAs." And that's how you get access. We're going to let them handle the burden of handling the agent appointments. And then eventually I'll eliminate them. They all come back and, "OK, now we're doing direct. Sorry about all that. Sorry about the fact that we were an abusive spouse three years ago and we were nasty to you, but we want you back now." That's the player right there.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Ken Insurance is pounding Florida right now. I'm friends with the founder on LinkedIn, and Gary Vaynerchuk is one of the biggest investors in Ken. I'm sitting here in his DMs like, "You are royally effing up right now by not working with agents because your customer acquisition cost is high." By the way, Ken was not the one I was talking to, but your customer acquisition cost is high and you're pissing off every single agent because you want property in Florida. You could solve a huge problem for every single agent in the state of Florida.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Yeah. You know how you solve the appointment process? An Excel spreadsheet to start. That's all you need. "Hey, send me a copy of your license." And then just once a day, notify the state of the new agencies that you're appointed with. I get that it seems overwhelming, but you have to remember that when you're given a boatload of money, these guys have major pressure on them. You have people like Gary Vaynerchuk who are investing in your company. They're going to ask questions like, "Have you tried the least expensive option first?" If you went right to agents, they'd say, "You're not really taking care of our money because you could have figured it out by going direct and you didn't." That's why it happens. It's not some nefarious thing. I think the same thing about lefties, right? They're trying to do their best. They're just misinformed.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Lefties? That's going to be left-handed batters? What are you talking about?
--:-- Bradley Flowers: These people think at face value, "If we just go direct, that's going to be the cheapest." And then you go, "Oh, that's not the cheapest. We'll go through MGAs. That's the cheapest." And you try that and you're like, "Oh, we're still not getting any volume. Well, I guess now we'll do major appointment. We'll go to Marsh." And they get Marsh and they go, "Ah, well, they already have 400 other appointments, so we're only getting limited flow from them. And mostly it's the bad shit that they don't want to send." Well, now we got to go to Independence. And then all of a sudden they start to get the flow. But if they don't go through that waterfall, they have to report to a board and tell them why they've made these decisions. A lot of times it's just, if they don't cycle through all those decisions, then they somehow are not being a good steward of that business.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: On the surface, it appears that agents are the least attractive option. When in reality, the way an insurance company makes money is writing the correct clients so they can maximize profitability at premium. You're not going to get that with direct-to-consumer. I don't care how good your targeting is. And this is coming from a marketing person. You're still going to have business that gets bound that's not your target client. Whereas if you work with good independent agents, they are going to put you with the correct carrier for your risk. They're not going to try to fit something into a box that doesn't belong there, generally speaking.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Part of my pitch to the VCs that I've been talking to is that by using humans, we will probably write 20% less than we would if we just had a direct button. But what I believe on the backend is I'll get 40% back in retention. None of these guys can crack 40% retention. That's the little dirty secret. All these companies that are getting tens of millions of dollars, IPO-ing—except for Goosehead—they can't crack 40 to 45% retention. They can't figure it out. They get them in, they go out the back. So it's all about acquisition. Blow your numbers up as big as you can, sell to a PE, IPO, whatever you got to do to recapitalize at a bigger number. But they're not making money and they can't crack 40% retention. The reason is they don't respect the humans.
--:-- So part of my pitch—and I haven't got VC funded yet because no one believes me that this is true, but I will eventually find the right partner—is I'm going to give up 20% in acquisition because I want a human to spend two minutes on the phone with somebody at a minimum to figure out if they're the real deal or if it's nonsense. If it's 20 minutes, that's fine. I don't mean only two minutes. I just mean at least that kind of touch. I believe that by doing that and having humans involved in the process throughout, we'll get that back and be able to push standard independent agency retention rates to 84% or higher. If I, as a digital brokerage, can produce 84% retention, we're going to slay. We'll be Scrooge McDucking into a vat of gold coins—or maybe bitcoins. Retention is the whole game. That has always put us as the mechanism for selling insurance. It is very difficult to sell people who have never lived our life on why that's important.
--:-- One more story and I'll let you go. About a week ago, my wife wakes me up at 4 a.m. and she's like, "Bradley, your phone just buzzed 23 times. What's wrong? Somebody's been in a car accident?" I said, "No. I texted Ryan Hanley at 8 p.m. about crypto. That's probably him responding." And sure enough, it was every single crypto Ryan thought I should buy, one after the other.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I thought you would appreciate that. Well, I wouldn't buy them all, but based on your risk tolerance, there's a portfolio in there for you.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: VRA. That's my little crypto secret. V-R-A. Veracity. You'll be into it. Pay-per-view technology. Patented pay-per-view technology. It's going to revolutionize the video game space.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: We're doing some insurance guy NFTs really soon. Just a fun little project. Each one comes with a prize—some really juicy prizes. Just to have fun. I'll be honest with you, if I were doing a conference right now, NFTs would be an enormous part of that conference. Speaker pictures, venue pictures, different NFTs that could get you into special rooms, special one-on-ones with speakers. There is so much we can do.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: When will this drop?
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I have no idea. So this may have dropped. It may already be over with. We're going to have a very small amount of NFTs at a higher price point. We've already sold all our tickets for our event. I think it's in Colorado with the Glovebox guys, correct?
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Correct. You won't come to that?
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I'm efforting to be there. I may just show up. This is going to be a game-time decision for me. But yes, I'm trying to be there. We found out today we're going to have access to the jumbotron. Our speakers are going to be up on the jumbotron.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Are we going to get to throw passes on the field?
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yes. You get to tour the field. You need to come to Mile High Stadium. Anyway, we've got six NFTs. Each NFT comes with a prize. Prizes like an Insurance Guys interview, one-on-one coaching with David Carruthers for a year, my marketing team does their content for six months, and one or two more prizes like that. They also get lifetime access to the conference. Whoever owns that NFT at the time of the conference—because we're going to do this every year—gets to come.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: I love that lifetime pass idea. If you're a conference organizer, that NFT lifetime pass idea is awesome because it has market value. You could sell it. Someone could have that and sell it to me off market, and now I just show up. You don't care whoever has the NFT gets in.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: And they can also sell it prior. Let's say they don't use the coaching with Carruthers. They could sell that piece of it as well. We're going to do a dinner the first night. Everybody that buys the NFT gets a dinner with me, Scott, Glovebox, Mick, David, and Daniel Song. Cool little intimate dinner.
--:-- Bradley Flowers: When are you dropping this NFT thing?
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Probably Monday. So this will not be out by Monday, although I could just drop it tomorrow. It still may be available. It may flop. I told Andy on a call earlier, I just want to do this to say we're the first ones in the insurance space to do it. Even if it flops and nobody buys it. Our ticket price is really low—$199. Most of these conferences are in the $700 range. The NFT is going to be $750. Assuming Ethereum doesn't skyrocket, it'll be $750 and some change.
--:-- I got to run, man. I didn't even realize what time it was. Appreciate the hell out of you. Love what you're doing. Thank you so much. It had been too long. I'm glad you sent me that message. For everyone who thinks there's some strategic plan on guests and stuff, I'm always just like, "Nope, Bradley just texted me and said, 'Hey, it's been too long. Let's talk.'" And I was like, "Done. Wednesday, let's go."
--:-- Bradley Flowers: It's funny because the things we're working on change so much from week to week. When you and I go a year and a half without doing one of these, there's so much more to talk about. I like your show because I can keep it real.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I also forget we talk so much offline. If you had said we did a podcast a month ago, I would have been like, "Oh yeah, that makes sense."
--:-- Bradley Flowers: Because you're probably like me. You don't listen to your own show.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Be good. Appreciate you. Catch you on the play.
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