--:-- Host: In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home. Hello everyone and welcome back to the show. Today we have an absolutely tremendous episode for you. Back to the interviews with Alan Stein Jr.
--:-- Host: Alan is a tremendous guy who has worked with some of the best athletes in the world, particularly in the basketball space, helping them raise their game, get to peak performance, stay at that place, both mentally and physically. If you want to go back and listen to the first time I interviewed Alan, it was probably about a year, maybe a year and a half ago. Just scroll back through the archives of this show and you'll find Alan's episode on raising your game.
--:-- Host: Today, he's on the show because he's got another book out called *Sustain Your Game*. Essentially what this is, is once you hit that pinnacle or you hit kind of fifth gear in your growth, how do you stay at that level? How do you not hit a plateau and then step back or fall back to where you were before?
--:-- Host: It's an absolutely tremendous conversation. We get very deep on a lot of different topics, both in success, drive, growth, leadership, stress management, how to avoid and or deal with stagflation or stagnation. It's just an absolutely tremendous conversation. I enjoy every time Alan is on the show. And I highly recommend you pick up his new book, *Sustain Your Game*. You'll hear him mention it at the very end, but I want to hit you with it now too. It's called sustainthegamebook.com. You can go to sustainthegamebook.com. Pick up Alan's book. I'm just a big fan of everything he does. I follow him on Instagram and LinkedIn and just a great guy to have in your ecosystem.
--:-- Host: Before we get to our conversation with Alan, though, I want to give a quick shout out to the sponsors that make this show possible. First is Podium. Podium is a set of tools that allows you to quickly, concisely, accurately, efficiently, effectively communicate mostly via chat and text through your website or through their text platform with your customers. We use Podium and we have an incredibly high, I've talked about this in the past, incredibly high connection rate. Oftentimes when people reach out to you, it is very hard to get a hold of them after they've reached out if you're not immediate. And what Podium does by using text instead of email allows you to quickly get back in front of your customers so they can reach out to you via chat, but you're reaching back to them via text. It's wonderful technology and it helps increase our connection rate with new prospects.
--:-- Host: I also want to give a big shout out to Tarmica, T-A-R-M-I-K-A.com, T-A-R-M-I-K-A, Tarmica. Tarmica is changing the game on small commercial business, helping you rate multiple carriers at one time. And they've just recently added a past sponsor. I'm going to give them a quick shout out because we still love them. Pathpoint is now on Tarmica. So now you can quote both standard lines as well as ENS business through Pathpoint through Tarmica. Huge, huge things going on at T-A-R-M-I-K-A.com. Tarmica, Tarmica, Tarmica, T-A-R-M-I-K-A.com. Get some Tarmica today.
--:-- Host: All right, let's get on to this absolutely tremendous conversation with Alan Stein.
--:-- [Transition to interview]
--:-- Host: Hey, hey. What's up, man?
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: Nothing. How are you?
--:-- Host: I'm good. How are you doing?
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: I'm doing well. I didn't get a chance to listen to your whole Will Smith take, but I'm very curious.
--:-- Host: Oh, yeah, well, I don't know. It's probably the most contentious take that I've taken, which was essentially one. And a lot of people, it was funny. It was an interesting exercise in contextualizing your argument. My initial take that spurred the whole thing was I watched it, did a little research around it. And I sent a tweet out that said, "I believe Chris Rock has every right to make the joke that he made. I also believe that Will Smith has the right to smack the shit out of him."
--:-- Host: Now, my point there was not that I think that it's right or that there shouldn't be any consequences for Will Smith's action. My point was that if you say something, there are repercussions that you can't control. And where I was trying to get to, and maybe some of my politics will come out of this, is that I feel like a lot of people—and this goes across the board, not left, right, whatever—I feel like too many people in our society today just say all kinds of things, offensive things, hurtful things, lies, all this stuff. And then they're just like, "Yeah, but you can't do anything. That's just my truth. That's my lived truth." And I'm like, yes, you have every right to say everything you want, but you can't control if you piss somebody off. They might come at you. And that doesn't mean that it's right, or that I condone violence. I don't. And that's kind of the context part. People are like, "Violence is never the answer." And I'm like, well, what happens when Vladimir Putin invades your country? Is violence the answer? Then what happens when a bully walks up to your son or daughter and knocks them to the ground? What are you going to do? You're going to tell the teacher, right? You know what's going to happen the next day? That bully is going to walk up to your son or daughter and find an even more hurtful way of knocking them to the ground.
--:-- Host: And at some point—and this was kind of my general point to the whole thing, which hopefully for the people that listened to the whole podcast, they got—was that I personally believe tough times are on the horizon for us in general. I don't know. I don't think the world's coming to an end or anything like that. I just think that times are going to get tougher and that it is a good idea to start to harden or toughen or start thinking proactively about the defense tactics, both psychology, our fitness, our network, our business, our relationships. We start to proactively think about those things from the standpoint of we are going to have to defend yourself. That might mean a competitor coming into business. It might mean a relationship with someone. It may mean physically someone trying to take something of yours.
--:-- Host: And I feel like we've become soft in so much as we can just go, "Hey, someone, I don't like this. Someone come fix this thing for me." And I just don't know that when our resources are scattered and our municipalities, our government, our networks of support start to become spread thin, we have to actually start to stand up for ourselves and take ownership of our life. Which is what—I don't know how I got there from Will Smith bitch-slapping Chris Rock, but somehow I did. And that was kind of the point.
--:-- Host: And then I got a lot of feedback, mostly around "violence is never the answer." And I'm like, well, you didn't grow up where I grew up, because if violence wasn't the answer where I grew up, I would have walked into school and had the shit kicked out of me every single day. Like at some point I had to respond. I'm not pro-violence, whatever. I just feel like if you live in a gated community, 20 miles from an urban area or a trailer park, and you make $300,000 a year and your kid goes to a private school, it is really, really, really easy to say violence is never the answer.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: Right. And I just don't know that that's reality. I mean, anytime we use the word "never," my skepticism immediately goes up. Even if you say violence is rarely the answer, at least that's a more appropriate sentiment than never. And it should be a last resort of a last resort. Always.
--:-- Host: That was for sure. Absolutely.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: Yeah. And it's just amazing how much coverage that's gotten over the last 36 hours. I mean, it's unbelievable. And I think part of it too is that was so uncharacteristic and off-brand for Will Smith, who for the most part has an absolutely impeccable resume and reputation. I think that's the first time the entire world has seen him do something even remotely questionable. And you're talking about someone that's been in the public eye since he was a teenager. So that's probably one of the reasons that it raised so many eyebrows.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: And I actually, for what it's worth, I thought his apology the next day was appropriate. I don't know if his PR team helped him write it or not, but nevertheless, it felt genuine. I felt it was the right thing to do. He made a mistake. He owned it. I've heard—and I don't know if this is true or not—but I think a few years ago at the Oscars, Chris Rock said something else that kind of took a jab at Jada. So I think there was a little bit of contention already there. Because I was thinking if somebody else made that same joke, would it still have stung as bad to her? Like if it was a friend, maybe not. I don't know. Everything's in context.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: But I thought the strangest part of the whole thing was he made the joke. Will Smith was laughing at the joke. And Jada, obviously you can tell by her facial expressions, was really off-put by it. So Will Smith went from laughing to then all of a sudden defending her honor. That was quite a turnaround. I just thought it was interesting.
--:-- Host: No, that's a really good point. I think by taking any kind of—I don't want to say I took a stand—having a viewpoint on the situation, I somehow become like, now people send me all these articles and break down. I have like 20 DMs of people breaking down the situation. It's really interesting. Not in a bad way. I love that stuff. I just, it's very interesting. Anytime you take a stand on anything, you're going to get polarized responses. So I commend you for taking a stand. I thought it was cool to do it in podcast form because it's almost impossible to get anything and keep it in context in some of these shorter forms. Obviously, I'm sure you would have expanded on that original tweet had you had an opportunity, but when you're limited to a certain number of characters...
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: Yeah. That's why Twitter is so tough, man. That's why Twitter is so tough. I've had so many interesting experiences with Twitter because I have a blue check. I only have 13,000 or 14,000 followers. Not like I have a hundred thousand followers, but I've been on Twitter for almost 14 years, almost since the second or third month that it existed, and I got blue checked. So I have the capability that some people don't of going viral because I have the blue check for sure.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: So during 2016, maybe? The last one where Trump lost. I tweeted out that I thought—now I have since lost all respect for Andrew Yang—but at the time I said, "I think an Andrew Yang and Tulsi Gabbard ticket would be amazing. To have this entrepreneur, he's an Asian guy, she's Hawaiian, and just this dynamic of some of the multicultural aspects of that make our country amazing. And he's an entrepreneur and she's been in it and she's also military. I'm like, this is the kind of ticket I would love to see go up against Trump because I felt like it was very representative of what makes America such an amazing place."
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: And that thing went bananas. My Twitter was just going like this. And it was just an off-the-cuff thing. I didn't even think twice about it. I just was like, man, this would be an amazing ticket. And I tagged the two people. I literally put seven seconds of thought into it. It just hit my brain. I was like, I think this would be fun. And dude, it went crazy on both sides. So I had people from Republicans saying, "She's this and he's that and all this kind of stuff." And then other people going, "Yeah, it'd be amazing." And it was wild.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: And I was like, I can see how people get hooked on that feeling. Because at first, you couldn't help it. You come in and you have 4,000 likes on a post. You get this immediate hit of feeling important. Logically, I know how silly that is, but I can see how people get hooked on making these short, provocative comments, whether they believe them or not, to get that attention because it is intoxicating. And if you're not emotionally mature enough to take a step back and go, "This is just idiots who don't know who I am hitting a button on a stupid app," if you can't take that step back, oh my gosh, that rabbit hole is deep and dark.
--:-- Host: Well, it's so funny because if you and I right now put our heads together and tried to strategize something to go viral, we have very little chance of making that happen. Yet something that you said crosses your brain for seven seconds in an emotional moment. And it is crazy. But to what you said earlier, I think that's a really interesting point as far as we all have the right to express ourselves however we'd like. But we also have the right to face the consequences of whatever that may be. And just like Chris Rock experienced the consequence 30 seconds after he said it, Will Smith better be prepared to have some backlash and some consequences to his behavior, whatever that may be. And I think because he was quick to apologize and because he has a pristine reputation, I think most of the world will be quick to forgive him.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: Yeah. Especially those that tend to look at it through the light of he was defending his woman's honor. Like some people make that more noble than maybe something else. So it'll be interesting to see how that unfolds. It was just—I mean, when I first saw it, I thought the thing was staged. I literally thought that was a ruse to improve ratings and that they had already talked well in advance. "Hey, I'm going to make this joke. Hey, you come up and do this. Hey, we'll make it look real. And we ain't telling nobody about it so the cat's not out of the bag." And I guess the more I see and hear on it, I guess that's not true. I guess it was real. But that was really crazy.
--:-- Host: Yeah. I had a couple of my buddies say the same thing. They're like, "Oh, that was staged. See the way he follows through on the slap." And I think that he is obviously dealing—to get to some of what we want to talk about today—he is dealing obviously with a level of stress and anxiety about whether it's this topic or another or multiple topics that manifested in that moment with the primal. And I don't mean this to be sexist, but I can only speak through the lens in which I live, which is that a man feels for his spouse. When you have that sense of connection and your willpower is dropped because of stress, and someone comes at that person, what it looked like to me was someone who was obviously hurting about things that we may or may never find out. He was pushed in that moment. He probably tried to laugh because he's in this setting and that's what you do. And he looked over, he saw her hurt, and he lost his mind for a period of time. I would guarantee there is no way he would ever do that again.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: Well, there's also this societal expectation that you will defend your woman's honor. And if you don't, then that in and of itself is somewhat emasculating. So in a moment of despair, he looks over. He sees the woman that means a lot to him is hurt by this comment. He realizes the entire world is watching and it's time for me to do something. But it also brings up the point that you just raised. We rarely know the full context of any situation. We see a snapshot. We don't even know for a fact that Chris Rock knows that Jada is suffering from a medical condition. He might've just thought she shaved her head for a movie role. She's a beautiful woman. So let's make a funny joke about a beautiful woman not having hair. He probably wasn't trying to do what it ended up doing. He's a comedian. He makes jokes. He's an observationalist. That's what happens.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: I mean, when you look back on—I'm a huge Ricky Gervais fan. You look back at some of the things that he has said and no one even considered rushing the stage to punch him. And he would admittedly probably say he said four or five things that deserve to be kicked in the dick and it never happened.
--:-- Host: I guarantee people wanted to. They just didn't have the balls to do it or weren't willing to face the consequences. And that was part of what I was trying to convey. I'm not condoning Will Smith walking up and slapping the shit out of Chris Rock. If anything, you should slap the shit out of him backstage or just approach him. I actually—again, in context, so everyone who's listening to this, you're going to freak out, please don't—I actually commend him for standing up for his wife. Because I think in the community in which he lives, that Hollywood community where emasculation is rampant, if you present yourself as a man you are toxic and it's all this, which I hate all that nonsense personally. I actually think it was even more powerful that he bucked that trend. Think about how many starlets have been trashed from that stage and the man who showed up with them, or woman, whoever counterpart, didn't stand up to that person. They just take it. I get it's the context.
--:-- Host: But I give him commendation. But I think the issue is most people aren't willing to face the consequences of that action. My point was, look, there are moments where the wrong thing is the right thing to do. And you just have to face the consequences. Sometimes standing up for the person you care about is the right thing to do. And you just have to know that there's going to be ramifications for that action. I've defended friends because I believe in them. And there are negative ramifications for me for doing that. And I would do it again. I guess what I was saying is we can't be scared of the repercussions if we feel what needs to happen needs to happen. And sometimes it just does.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: Yes. The only thing I agree wholeheartedly, and the only thing I would add to that, is having the emotional regulatory skills and presence of mind to make that a conscious decision in the moment and not an emotional knee-jerk reaction. But if what you said earlier is true, he was just overwhelmed in the moment, had this primal reaction, almost like it's an out-of-body experience, slaps him, and then 30 seconds later goes, "Oh my God, what did I just do?" That is completely different than in the moment going, "I'm going to go up there and slap the shit out of this guy. And whatever happens to me for it, I'm willing to accept because this is what I'm choosing to do." Those are very different things.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: And with Will Smith, obviously having never met him or known him, everything he's ever done in his life appears to be well thought out and under emotional control. And I have so much respect for that. So I'm not judging him. He may have had a moment of weakness, and Lord knows I have had plenty of those. But there's a difference between leaning into something like you said—"I'm going to defend my friend because it's the right thing to do, and whatever consequence I suffer from that, I'm going to be okay with it"—and just flying off the handle, which is what a lot of people do. And that is so not like Will Smith to do that, which is why I think it's insane. I mean, if Kanye West would have gone up and smacked Chris Rock, people like, "All right, here's Kanye again. This is just what he does."
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: So it is really interesting. Because I know in my life, one of the things that I'm really trying to work on is getting to a point that I don't give my power away to anyone else. And no matter what someone says or does, no matter what's going on in the world, I don't let it affect how I show up in my mindset. Obviously this is really challenging to do, but I wouldn't want to give someone the power to have control over my attitude and control over my anger. I want to be the one to control that. And if I choose to unleash it, it is my decision and my decision only. No one can make me respond that way.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: And I think Will will reflect on this and he'll come to certain conclusions. I love that he signed his apology "a work in progress." Because we all are. And anyone that doesn't think they are is most likely in denial or completely unaware. So I just thought the whole thing was fascinating. And I really don't get into that kind of stuff. I kind of stay away from it, but it was impossible to not address it or even take a look at it because it has been everywhere.
--:-- Host: If it was based—so I'm so glad that you added that because I completely and utterly agree. And I don't know that I could have articulated that keystone, which I think is the most important piece: do it through an intentional action, not through an emotional response. And I think Will's was an emotional response, which is why I didn't condone the action. I just was trying to make the point that if you say stupid shit, expect stuff to happen. And that doesn't mean that it's right what happens. It just means that I struggle with the concept in our society today that people can do and say shit with zero repercussions because it's their lived truth or some other nonsense that I think is stupid.
--:-- Host: We all—you are an adult. You have to make choices. Some of which you can allow to just be made through emotional bursts or through intentional action. But either way, there's repercussions for every action. And I guess that's what I was trying to convey. And I believe inaction today—there's no excuse for inaction. Be proactive in what's coming and address it. That's where I was trying to go. But that caveat was absolutely perfect because that is the case. If he came back and his apology was, "Look, Chris Rock has been messing with my wife and me for three years. And I told myself the next time I see him, I'm going to smack the shit out of him. And when I saw him up on stage there, I was just waiting for my moment. And I did exactly what I came there to do." I'd be like, well, that's still kind of messed up, but at least it's your decision. This very much felt like what I think.
--:-- Host: And I do want to pivot this to a certain extent, to a large extent, to your new book and talk about all that. As leaders, as individuals, I think a lot of times when we get ourselves in trouble—and bringing this back to business and why a lot of people come to this show—the decisions we regret the most are the ones where we allow stress or urgency or something like that to evoke an emotion that drives an action that if we had taken the time or had the emotional maturity to handle, we may not have. And those, I think, oftentimes are our biggest regrets. Where you're like, "Oh my God, I don't know what happened to me. I'm so sorry. I had a blackout moment." It's like, yeah, but as a leader, you can't have those moments. Or at least definitely not. You get that in the early stages of your career when you're still learning, but when you're at the top of the mountain, you can't be doing that shit.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: No, you absolutely can't. And that's why I found this whole thing as kind of a microcosm of certain lessons that we can all learn both personally and professionally. And that's really what I've been fascinated with. Ultimately, I mean, you look over the last several years in particular, the last five for sure, just how divisive our country has been on a variety of different topics. To the point where I think a lot of people would love to just walk around slapping a lot of other people. Slapping people that disagree with them or people that have a different stance. Or if you say something that offends me, then I have the right to slap you and so forth. So I just find the whole thing really, really interesting. And in every situation, we never have the full context.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: And to me, that's one of the things that helps with emotional regulation: the admission that this person just said or did something, and I saw or heard what they just said or did in the moment, but I don't have the full picture. I mean, even if we like right now, I can kind of see you and I see kind of a foot or two around me. And then everything outside of this starts to get blurry. And every single thing outside of my office right now, I can't actually see. So my view is very limited. And that's true in life. You see or hear someone say something and you may think you have all of the information, but you rarely do. You don't know the full backstory. You don't know where that person is in that moment in their life, what they've been dealing with.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: So for me, I'm constantly at struggle with trying to extend as much grace and compassion to other people as I can when they say or do something that I disagree with or is even stupid, as judgmental as that term may be, because I don't know everything that led up to that.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: If you really want to take it deep, if you were to say something right now that I disagree with, the first framework that I use would be that this is merely a perspective. That Ryan and I are not arguing over a fact. We're arguing over a perspective. And that if I believe I'm entitled to my perspective and opinion, then I need to allow him to have his. Even if I disagree with it, he has the right to have it. So there needs to be a little bit of mutual respect. Even if what you said is fundamentally in opposition to one of my core values, you have the right to say it and believe it.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: The next thing, once we can agree that this is not a truth that we're arguing over, it's merely an opinion, then what I want to try to do is give you the benefit of the doubt that you are doing the best you can with the tools that you have. Whatever you just said or did is based off of where you grew up, how you grew up, how you were raised, your gender, your ethnicity, what you read, watch, and listen to, who you follow on social. All of that has created a bias in the way that you see the world, just like all of that has created a bias in the way that I see the world. And it takes a little humility for me to admit that if I grew up where you grew up, I was raised how you were raised, I lived where you lived, and I watched and listened to everything you currently do, there's a good chance I would probably share your opinion. But I don't. I have different inputs, so I'm going to have different outputs. And you are as well.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: And then the last part of that framework that I find really helpful is instead of trying to convince you you're wrong and that I'm right and that I'm good and that you're bad, I just try to lean in with some curiosity and fascination and go, "Okay, Ryan just said something that blows my mind how bonkers it is. I'm curious how an intelligent, informed person could possibly come to that conclusion. So I want to learn more about why he thinks what he thinks. Where did he get this opinion from? How did he form this perspective? Because I just can't even believe someone would think something that crazy." So I just try to lean in with fascination.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: And I find when I follow that framework, it doesn't mean that I'm going to agree with the person. It just means I at least leave the door open for a respectful and civil discussion or dialogue. And it may turn me on to new information that I wasn't aware of, or it may strengthen my own convictions. But under no circumstances is it going to enrage me. In no circumstances am I going to give you the power over how I'm feeling about myself. And I'm certainly not going to react emotionally, no matter what it is that you say. So those things I find are helpful. And with all of that, it's certainly not easy. And some days I do much better with that than other days. But at least that's a framework for me on getting along better and being collaborative and cooperative with people that may view the world very, very differently than I do.
--:-- Host: What's up guys?
--:-- Host: Sorry to take you away from the episode, but as you know, we do not run ads on this show. In exchange for that, I need your help. If you're loving this episode, if you enjoy this podcast, whether you're watching on YouTube or listening on your favorite podcast platform, I would love for you to subscribe, share, comment. If you're on YouTube, leave a rating review if you're on Spotify or Apple iTunes. This helps the show grow. It helps me bring more guests in. We have a tremendous lineup of people coming in, men and women who've done incredible things, sharing their stories around peak performance, leadership, growth, sales, the things that are going to help you grow as a person and grow your business. But they all check out comments, ratings, reviews. They check out all this information before they come on. So as I reach out to more and more people and want to bring them in and share their stories with you, I need your help. Share the show. Subscribe if you're not subscribed. And I'd love for you to leave a comment about the show because I read all the comments. Or if you're on Apple or Spotify, leave a rating review of this show. I love you for listening to this show and I hope you enjoy listening as much as I do creating the show for you. All right, I'm out of here. Peace. Let's get back to the episode.
--:-- [The episode resumes]
--:-- Host: Yeah. One of the things that has really helped me... I go to see a counselor almost every week or every other week, just to talk through stuff. I wish that I had started doing it a long time ago. It just helps you. Sometimes we talk about almost seemingly nonsensical things, like how my kids are doing or whatever. And then in talking through that, you'll say something and be like, "Ah, why did I say that?"
--:-- One of the things that she has helped me with, almost as like a filter, even before that framework that you just described, which I think is amazing, is she said, "Understand that very few of us are Shakespeare or Poe. Our ability to articulate how we're feeling is often very limited. And then if you throw emotions, stress, anxiety, tiredness, excitement, energy, all these other things into the mix, sometimes the words that are coming out of our face aren't even what we actually mean."
--:-- So I say something to you and you go, "Jesus, that's crazy. Why did he say that?" I want to be curious, which I absolutely love. Sometimes you say back to me, if you get mad at me, now we're fighting. But if you can come back to me and go, "That sounds crazy to me. Why'd you say that?" Or maybe not say crazy. You say, "Hey, I have never thought about it that way. Why'd you say that?" And then I go, "Geez, I didn't even really mean it that way. What I meant to say was..." And now all of a sudden the situation has been brought down a notch. Maybe we're off of DEF CON five and we're back down to four or three, because now I realized that I didn't even mean to say what I said to you the way that I said it.
--:-- Since she gave me that tool, that filter, I think through it. You'll say something and I'll go, "Before I react or even comment, I'm going to make sure that Alan meant to say it that way." If he did, that's great. We'll talk about it. But if he didn't, then I'd rather get how he really wants to articulate it first. When you can do that or catch yourself, and just like you, I catch myself a certain percentage of the time, not all the time. When I can catch myself instead of reacting, asking that question, "Hey, is that really what you meant? Is that how you meant to say that? Because here's how I heard it..." The number of fights with my spouse has come down. Any arguments with anybody or just disagreements has really started to contract because now I'm giving that person the word you used, which is one of my absolute favorite words: grace. Giving that person grace to make sure that they've said what they wanted to say the way they wanted to say it, and not just how it originally came out.
--:-- From a leadership perspective, last time we talked, I think it was still just me. I got nine people now.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: Wow, congrats, man. That's huge.
--:-- Host: Thanks. Yeah. It is fun, amazing, and incredibly stressful at the same time. But that's where you can put these tools into practice.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: Yes. It's been great to manage this stuff. It's like, "Did you really mean to say it that way?" Not that that's wrong, but did you?
--:-- Well, this is where one of the tools of being an active listener is called a "list back." Listing back what the other person said, but using their exact same language. Because then you confirm the accuracy of what they were saying, but you give them an open door to amend what they said, if for any reason. So, "Ryan, I just want to make sure I'm hearing you correctly. You said that you feel this, this, this, and this." Now that gives you a beat to be able to say, "You know what, I didn't articulate how I'm feeling very accurately. I kind of spoke from a place of emotion. So no, Alan, I didn't mean it that way. Here's exactly what I meant to say."
--:-- Any of these tools, they all take patience. They take grace. They take an openness and a curiosity. They take humility. All of these things are appropriately tethered. When we're stressed, when we're angry, when we're in the moment, it's harder to access all of those different tools. So the key is having the emotional regulatory skills that we don't allow ourselves to get to the point where we're siphoning off all of these conscious skills and tools that we know we can access, and not resorting back to primal emotions. That's really challenging. The closer something is to you, the more personal it is to you. If it happens to be a topic that's a sore point of contention, then that just inflames it. It makes it even more challenging to be calm and have access to these different tools.
--:-- Another tool that I use for myself is trying to depersonalize everything. Even if someone was verbally attacking me on social media, I take a step back and go, "Okay, they're not really attacking me. They're coming from a place of hurt right now. All this venom and vitriol that they're spitting towards me is not really because of me. It's because of other things going on in their life." So I don't need to take it personal.
--:-- Even Chris Rock's joke — his job is to entertain masses of people. I don't personally think he had a point of contention with Jada. I think he saw an opportunity as an observationalist to say something humorous for the good of the group. And it just so happens she was the butt of the joke. I don't think he woke up that morning and said, "I'm going to stick one in her in front of people because I really want to get her." I just think she happened to be on the receiving end of the joke. If there had been any other female in that audience with a shaved head, he would have made the same joke towards them. It just so happens that he made it and there was some backstory. And like you said, now you've got all of this stuff going on in Will Smith's life. It boils to a point.
--:-- So yeah, I think the more we can maintain emotional control, the more we have access to the tools that we consciously know are in our best interest, and then we can use them. A lot of the stuff on social, people are hiding behind the web. Most of the things that people would say to you about whatever it is that you tweeted, they would not walk up and sit down shoulder to shoulder with you and say the exact same thing. I would say that's a very, very small percentage. So I know that's another guide I try to use in my life. I don't make any comment or say anything on social that I would not say to the person if they walked in my office right now. Once again, that's not always easy to do. It's easy to hide behind that curtain. But that's a standard that I certainly try to live up to.
--:-- Host: I actually heard — I can't remember where, I was listening to a podcast yesterday — that the point of that joke was actually to make her feel like, "Hey, it's all good. No one cares. It's all good that this is happening. Don't feel bad. The community still likes you." So to your point, you say something without context, or maybe you don't say it the exact way that you mean to, or you're not able to explain yourself. And if it doesn't hit the right way, and you're not given that opportunity to explain yourself, then misunderstanding happens.
--:-- So let's talk about *Sustain the Game*. You got a new book. If everyone who is listening did not listen to the first time Alan was on, go back in the archives. You'll hear the first episode. It was amazing. One of the best podcast episodes created in the history of podcasts. This one's right on its heels. So you got the new book, *Sustain the Game*. I know we've talked loosely about some of the concepts, but tell us what's it about? Why'd you write it? Let's dig in a little bit here.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: Sure. The goal of *Raise Your Game* was to give folks strategies to reach optimal performance, whether that's in business, sport, or any area of their life. *Sustain Your Game* is giving folks the tools to stay there for long periods of time. I found there are a trilogy of characteristics that make that increasingly difficult to stay on top of that mountain: stress, stagnation, and burnout. Those are really the three areas that I dive deep into and try to uncover.
--:-- What I found fascinating about these three areas is they've got different timelines in the way in which we experience them. As we've been talking about since we hit record, stress is really in the short term. Stress is in the moment, what we feel on the day-to-day. Stagnation, in my belief, is kind of that mid-stretch, that midterm. And then burnout is something we feel when both of these things accumulate to a boil and we really find that we're not loving what it is that we're currently doing.
--:-- I've always been fascinated by folks that have been able to stay on top of their game for long periods of time. Right now in sport, we have two of the best examples in history with LeBron James and Tom Brady. Two guys that have been at the top of their proverbial mountain for two decades and are still apparently in their prime. But you could look to any other area, whether you're talking about somebody like Warren Buffett or Oprah Winfrey or even Ice Cube, somebody that has been able to constantly reinvent themselves and stay atop. It's fascinating.
--:-- For me, everything I write about is also what I'm currently experiencing in my own life. When I wrote *Raise Your Game*, it's because I was trying to ascend to reach optimal performance. While I do believe that is a never-ending journey, and I certainly have not maximized my own potential by any means, I am now in a position where I'm in touch with the way that I'm living my life. Now my goal is to sustain this for long periods of time and to be the best father I'm capable of, the best speaker, the best business owner, all of these things. If I can make sure that I know how to manage stress, stagnation, and burnout, then I've got a nice runway ahead of me. I'm 46 years old, and I don't see any reason why I won't be on this planet for another 46 years. So I want to take everything I've learned during the first half and appropriately apply it to everything I'll experience in the second half.
--:-- Host: Especially if you're doing deadlifts on a regular basis, right?
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: Absolutely.
--:-- Host: So I want to talk about stress. I'm sure there's a whole bunch about stress, but I actually am going to be very selfish and I want to get into the concept of stagnation. This is one that I think, being that 95 to 98 percent plus of our audience here are people in the insurance industry, I do get this feedback from a lot of people. The business is stressful, but in general, the stress in our industry tends to be manageable stress. We're not stock brokers where any day the market can crash down. We're selling. There's leadership stress, sales stress, day-to-day client stress. I think it's standard, but everyone's different.
--:-- However, in our industry, because of the repetitive nature of our work and the fact that it tends not to be a big win industry, you sell an account, you sell an account, you sell an account. You wake up and you're like, "Okay, I sold accounts. That's great." All of a sudden you pop your head up five years later and you're like, "Do I still sell accounts? What do I do?" I feel like this is something that our space tends to hit: these moments of stagnation.
--:-- What I see people do is they tend to chase stuff. They chase technology, or they chase some new sales program, or they start chasing mergers and acquisitions. Maybe these are the right things to do, but often they feel more like emotional reactions to a sense of stagnation than an intentional act based on a course they want to follow. So can you talk a little bit about what stagnation is from a high level? And two, what are some of the concepts that you've found that can kind of work through that?
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: Most certainly, man. You said so much insightful stuff there, a lot of great stuff to unpack. I view stagnation as akin to treading water. You're moving, but you're not really going anywhere. It's that plateau that many people feel. You've been climbing that ladder and you've been experiencing growth, and then at some point you just hit it and the status quo just becomes the norm.
--:-- One of the first things that we have to do is have an awareness that we are stagnating. That's one of the hard parts about stagnation. When someone hits rock bottom in whatever area, they're alerted to the fact that they have to make a change because things have gotten really, really bad. That's not really the case with stagnation. It kind of hides in plain sight because things aren't that bad. But at the same time, you're not full of elation and joy and fulfillment. You're almost just numb to the fact that the wheels are in motion, but you don't really feel like you're getting anywhere. That numbness over time is what will eventually lead to burnout, which is why it needs to be addressed.
--:-- It's so important that we have an awareness and have the humility to acknowledge when we're stagnating. I'm a huge believer that you'll never improve something you're oblivious to, and you'll never fix something that you're unaware of. So the first step is being able to say, "You know what, I've been treading water for the last few months. I've got kind of a numb feeling. It's not like the world is coming to an end, but at the same time, I'm not really enjoying what I'm doing. I need to start making a change."
--:-- I'm also a heavy believer in the concept of extreme ownership. This is where you fully hold yourself accountable to the stagnation. You don't blame, complain, or make excuses about other people. You don't blame it on the economy. You don't blame it on circumstances. You don't even blame it on a pandemic, which has been an incredibly trying time for two years now. You take control and acknowledge the fact that you've allowed yourself to stagnate, and you'll be the one that gets yourself out of this.
--:-- One of the very first steps to doing so is reaching out, expanding outside of your smaller world. Reading, watching, and listening to things that invigorate you. Trying new things. Reaching out to people that appear to be clicking on all cylinders and are in no point of stagnation, and figuring out what it is that they've done to get themselves out of the treading water stage and actually start swimming forward.
--:-- Host: That and a quick trip to Argentina for a round of ayahuasca to open your mind. I have heard that.
--:-- I think one of the things that's helped me with stagnation a little bit is finding ways to spice up normally mundane things. I think the worst thing you can do — and I've made this mistake a ton of times — is you feel that sense of stagnation, that sense of grinding or dullness, and then you do something freaking crazy. You make some radical change because you feel like that's the only thing you can do. If you can keep yourself from doing that, and instead write one LinkedIn post a week on any topic, just something small but different. Maybe start dressing differently. If you dress casual a lot, go more formal. If you dress formal all the time, try showing up to work in jeans and a hoodie and see how that feels. Go for a walk in the middle of the day. Do one of those reach-out challenges where you text somebody from your past every day. Find something very small, work-related or not, that can break that up.
--:-- It's funny how then all of a sudden the shit that felt dull, you're like, "I don't mind doing that so much anymore. I'm back in my groove." You can get a little win, get a trainer at the gym or a golf coach or something. I feel like if you can keep yourself from doing the big crazy thing — because that's where you can do some dumb stuff — if you can stay away from that, these little tiny things can wake your brain up. All of a sudden you start thinking about something different, and then it's not dull anymore.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: Absolutely. I love that you went in that direction. A good portion of the things that we should look to tweak are on the bookends of our day: our morning and our evening routine. There's that old quote, "We are what we repeatedly do." So take a look at your morning routine. What do you do most mornings for the first 60 minutes after you wake up? What are some minor tweaks that you can make to that? Sometimes it's actually switching the activities themselves. Other times it's switching the order in which you perform the activities. Just try to do something a little bit different because we tend to have a little bit more control on the bookends of our day than we do during the meat of our day.
--:-- If you can make some of those tweaks, and like you said, these are not radical changes. They're kind of like little micro-reinventions. You can say, "Hey, this is what I've been doing, and this is how I've been feeling. So if I want to feel differently, I need to change what I've been doing." We can't forget cause and effect. Whatever it is you've been doing has been leading you to the results you've been getting. If you don't like those results, then you got to go back to the process part and the habits and the behaviors part and start to change some of those things. It is amazing when you tweak the screws on some little things, how that can have a profound impact on how you're feeling.
--:-- I'm also a huge believer that our perspective on the world and the way we view ourselves has a lot to do with what we consume. Certainly it has a lot to do with what we consume nutritionally. If you eat garbage, you feel like garbage. That's the truth. But same thing mentally. Maybe you find that you've been consuming traditional news sources and you find yourself a little bit moody or frustrated or pessimistic. There's most likely a direct correlation between the two. If you start listening and reading and watching more inspirational content or something more educational, or you try and pick up a new hobby that's completely outside of what you've been doing, it will change the way you feel. That all goes back to that take control part. We need to take control of the environments that we're creating and the behaviors that we have, and own the fact that we alone have put ourselves in a position of stagnation, so we alone can get ourselves out of it.
--:-- Host: I completely and utterly agree. I like the idea of the bookends. I hadn't thought about that.
--:-- You know what I think is interesting on this topic? When you pick a thing — and people who listen to the show are probably sick of hearing this — I have gotten really into deadlifting. I'm 41 years old, never deadlifted. COVID hits. The gym opened back up August of 2020. I started working out at this new gym. It's a real steakhead gym. It's grimy and loud. The guy makes all his own equipment. It's big. He's got some regular stuff, but then he literally welds together machines to do all these exercises. I actually think it's phenomenal. It's awesome. But it's 22 to 26 year old steakheads, all tatted and big, huge muscles. There's mirrors everywhere and they're constantly flexing in them. I love it because no matter what I lift at that gym, there's somebody 20 years younger lifting twice as much.
--:-- About three months later, I started working out at this gym. It's one of the few gyms that has a full Olympic pad setup. It's got nine Olympic pads for deadlifting and all the exercises. There's just not that many gyms that have that. So I got into deadlifting. I was like, "This is interesting. This is challenging, but I can do it on my own. I don't have to have a partner." When I started, I could only do 185. I can now do 405. It's taken me 19 to 20 months to get here.
--:-- The point of all that context is this: focusing on that one thing of trying to pick up this thing and really grow and be good at it, I've had to research barefoot shoes and read about the pros and cons of barefoot lifting versus wearing shoes. I've had to physically think about the things I'm putting in my body so I have fuel when I show up. I've had to think about my sleep. I've had to research a bunch of stuff and put all this new information in my brain. I've had to find ancillary exercises that are going to help me with stabilizer muscles. So now I have this whole hobby that has come out of nowhere. Whenever I'm feeling down about work, I can go do this other thing and it jacks me back up.
--:-- I think too often we get stuck and you don't realize that if you want to run, now there's like 17 things that you're going to have to learn and read and change to be a good runner or golfer or whatever. That's why when people bang on golf, I'm like, "Yeah, but it gives somebody something to strive for and to think about and to challenge them." I feel like these things are really healthy to have.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: For sure. Well, first of all, congratulations on such progress. From all of my years as a basketball performance coach, the deadlift is an incredibly challenging and physically difficult exercise. You really picked the mother load there. You've made tremendous progress. In 19 to 20 months, you've gone from 185 to 405.
--:-- But at some point, and you'll notice this, at some point you'll start to not stagnate maybe in your desire to improve the deadlift, but your actual ability to crack 410 or 415. You'll start to stagnate. You'll say, "Hey man, I've been going to the gym for a month straight and I have not been able to get over this hump." The fun part will be lifting up the hood and starting to tweak all of the things that you just mentioned. You'll have to say, "Okay, with currently what I'm eating, currently how I'm sleeping, the regiment that I'm following, the time of day I work out, the set and rep pattern that I use, the ancillary exercises — all of that stuff. I'm going to start to need to tweak those things a little bit to see which one of those variables allows me to get past where I'm stagnating right now."
--:-- To me, that's the fun part. Saying, "Okay, here are the leg, hip, and core exercises that I've been doing to support the deadlift. I'm going to mix those up and do some different ones now because I'm trying to get over this hump. I've been deadlifting every day at four in the afternoon, but now I'm going to try it at eight in the morning and see if that changes anything. I've been eating primarily a paleo diet, but now I'm going to switch to something else." To me, that's the fun. I get so much enjoyment out of tweaking so many things in my life with a goal of improving performance in whatever it is — maybe it's running a half marathon, maybe it's how many pull-ups I can do. That is one of the key ways to prevent stagnation: to constantly toy with those variables.
--:-- The immense joy you'll feel when you crack that stagnation and then you deadlift 415 and then 420, that's going to keep driving you. And then at some point that will start to stagnate and you'll have to refigure it all out. With strength training in particular, because of its progressive nature, it's inherently built into the system that you've got to keep tweaking the inputs to tweak the output. We can apply that lesson to every area. You feel like a chemist. You're like, "Well, I got this beaker in here, and I got to make sure my previous leg day was..."
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: It's fun.
--:-- Host: To spin this back to business again, for those who are listening and go, "Ah, I don't want to do that," the interesting part is it could be anything. This could be reading books. It could be picking up a writing habit. It could be a whole bunch of things. What I found is this idea of pushing, plateauing, having to break down, re-evaluate, change, adjust, dealing with the frustration of having to do it even though I know it's coming — it's so frustrating. Right now, I'm living through it with my bench. I can't push 265 right now. I've had 255. I've done 260. For some reason, right now, 265, I get caught in the transition every time. So I've had to break it down. I feel frustrated. Dealing with that and coming back, the cool part is it carries over to the rest of your life. You start to look at your relationships and go, "Okay, maybe this relationship is not going great. How can I adjust? What am I doing wrong?"
--:-- Host: Business. Maybe if I try sending emails a different way for a little while, or I try answering the phone differently, or I reach out to my team members differently. It starts to infect your brain, this concept of build, tear down, rebuild. Build, tear down, rebuild.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: And I don't know. There's a guy in crypto that I follow, and he always says, "When in doubt, pull back." He actually says, "When in doubt, pull out," but the sexual connotations... I guess I said it anyway.
--:-- Host: It rhymes better.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: It does rhyme better. Which is also good advice in and of itself, just for everyone who's listening. When you pull back, you don't see plateaus, you see steps. He said that, and I was listening. He was like, "Yeah, when you look at this chart, everyone sees these moments that are flat or maybe even a little down and they get all crazy. When you pull back, it doesn't actually look like that. It looks literally like a ladder or a set of steps." And that's exciting. I think we forget about that.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: Well, one other thought on this, and this may sound counter to what we've been talking about, but it isn't really, is also learning how to detach from outcomes and learn how to just love the process. When you can get to the point that the actual work is where you derive your enjoyment, then you're experiencing freedom.
--:-- I'm saying this tongue in cheek, because I know this is not how you live your life. But if your entire self-worth was predicated on whether you can deadlift 420 pounds, you're setting yourself up for a pretty miserable life. On the days that you deadlift 420, you feel good about yourself. On the days that you can't, you feel bad about yourself. I don't think that's the way to live.
--:-- When you can actually say, "I actually love tweaking my nutrition. I love tweaking my sleep. I love trying new workout programs and set and rep regimens to try and get that. This is what I love. And if I happen to deadlift 420, that's just the by-product. That's the bonus." Then you've got something really, really special.
--:-- I have that same approach even with my book at present. I'm not worried about how many copies I sell or whether or not I make a bestseller list. Those things would be nice if they happen, but I actually love the process. I love writing the best book that I'm capable of. And then I actually enjoy the marketing and promotion, trying to get it in the hands of people that I think will enjoy it and benefit from it. That's the part that I actually enjoy. So whether I sell a thousand copies, a hundred thousand copies, or a million copies is irrelevant. That's just the bonus. I actually enjoy the work and the process.
--:-- That's so true even for working out. If you love all of the stuff that you're doing to improve your deadlift, then you've already won. It doesn't even matter if you actually reach that goal or not, if you're getting fulfillment from what you're doing. And that obviously applies to business. There's nothing wrong with having a quota or a numbers goal for a quarter or for a year. It's great to have those North Stars. But once you have those North Stars, take your eyes off of them and focus on the day-to-day. Focus on the things you can do today to inch yourself closer to that North Star. And if you actually enjoy the day-to-day and derive fulfillment from that, you've already won.
--:-- I don't believe in putting my own self-worth and self-confidence into external validation or into external measures. Those things are beautiful rewards when they happen, but I'm not worried about it. I'm enjoying this conversation with you right now, whether 1,000, 100,000, or a million people listen to it is irrelevant. Whether they all benefit from this conversation — certainly, that's my hope, that's why we're having it, we want to add value to other people's lives — but I'm actually enjoying this time with you immensely. So I've already won.
--:-- It's kind of changing the game, because we live in a very outcome-based society that tells us we have to hit these certain markers. And if we don't, then we're not successful. I just refuse to play that game. I create my own game. I set the rules. And I love the work. That means I've already won.
--:-- Host: Dude, I think that is an absolutely amazing vantage point on the world. I'm so glad that you spent this time with us. Guys, two book collection: *Raise the Game* and *Sustain the Game*. I'm sure on Amazon they have the "if you get this one, get this one too" feature, so get both. If you don't have them, don't be stingy, get both. Most of you got to raise your game first, then you need to sustain it. But if you're just interested in this book, sustainyourgamebook.com. Also have it in the show notes. If for some reason you want to go to my site first, but don't go to sustainyourgamebook.com, order, pick up your copy.
--:-- Alan, where else can people get at you if they just want to get into your ecosystem?
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: The easiest thing, my website is allensteinjr.com. I have an ancillary site, which is strongerteam.com. And I'm very easily found on all social media platforms at Alan Stein Jr. I love having these discussions. I love talking Will Smith. I love talking books. I love talking business. I love talking deadlifts. So if anyone wants to continue this conversation or you've got something you want to share or ask, just shoot me a DM or shoot me an email. Would love to keep the conversation going. And always a wonderful, wonderful experience connecting with you, Ryan. Thank you so much.
--:-- Host: Yeah, you too, man. I appreciate you coming back on and wish you nothing but the best. This is always time incredibly well spent. Thank you.
--:-- Alan Stein Jr.: Thank you. Cheers.
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