--:-- Host: In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home... Hello everyone, and welcome back to the show. Today we have a tremendous episode for you. A triple tremendous episode for you. A conversation with scratch agency owner, podcaster, all-around incredible dude. Someone who is kind of showing what it means to take the bull by its horns, as you will. Stephen Turnbull from T5 Insurance out of Utica, New York.
--:-- Host: I'm an enormous fan of Stephen, what he's doing, how he's doing his work, his focus, his dedication, how he plays to his strengths. I think that Steven and the crew of scratch agencies that he's hooked up with are redefining what it means to be a scratch agency. They're showing that there's nothing to be scared of. We don't have to be scared of being a scratch agent. You can do it, you can make it happen. There's success to be had, there are opportunities to be had, and hardworking producers who are not given the opportunity to grow inside of legacy agencies can split off and be highly successful.
--:-- Host: Steven kind of came out to Albany back in the spring, early summer-ish, and we sat down at Dinosaur Barbecue and we just talked business and what he was doing. I tried my best to give him just some insights from what I learned launching Rogue and different stuff like that. Watching him grow and be successful has been incredible. I'm an enormous fan of Steven. I'm rooting for him every day. This conversation was absolutely wonderful.
--:-- Host: There's a little bit of a hiccup in the middle. We had some technology issues, some internet connectivity issues. I've done my best to cut those out. But if you hear a little screwiness in the middle, that's that. It takes two seconds when we get past it. But just an absolutely tremendous episode, absolutely tremendous conversation. I highly encourage that you keep an eye on Steven and what he's doing, because I think he's going to be a primetime player in the years to come. And you heard it here first, unless you heard it somewhere else first and then you heard it there first.
--:-- Host: Before we get there, guys, love you for listening to this show. If you enjoy the show, I'm cranking out episodes. I'm having great conversations. I'm having tons of fun again. The doldrums of the personal issues that I've had over the last year are kind of starting to shake off and I'm feeling like my old self again. I'm just getting back into rocking and rolling and having awesome conversations. This is one of them.
--:-- Host: If you enjoy it, share the show with a friend. That's how we grow the audience. That's how we get more people involved. That's how we get more people talking about the stuff that we talk about in this show. If you enjoy this show, then you obviously have some affiliation or affinity to the ideas, the concepts, the methodology that I practice and the guest practices. I would love for you to share with your friends. It helps grow the show and that is real good stuff.
--:-- Host: Also, if you love the podcast, you will really love the blog, Finding Peak. Go to findingpeak.com. It's free. Sign up. You get an article every Friday. It'll make you better at what you do. At least some of it will, or hopefully it'll at least entertain you on a Friday morning. What I'm really trying to do is give you little tools to add to your tool belt to be the best version of yourself. That's the whole point of Finding Peak.
--:-- Host: I want to give a shout out to SIA. SIA is a tremendous supporter of us. Obviously, they're our parent company, but they don't have to be as good to us as they are. They don't have to be as good to their members as they are. The people at home office in New Hampshire, man, they're trying, they're working hard, and they're doing everything they can. I know that's easy for me to say. I'm sitting here on a podcast in Albany, New York, and they own my agency. So it's easy for me to stroke them. But I promise you, they're working for their members. They're working real hard, having tough conversations, working through the new economy that we're facing, and finding ways to make members more productive, more efficient, more successful, and ultimately help make them more money. So I want to give a big shout out to SIA. If you're interested in joining a cluster, a network, or whatever you want to call what SIA is, I think you absolutely should consider SIA as one of your options. I've loved it. I've loved the people. They've been nothing but good to me. They've been nothing but good to most of the people I know who are members. So I highly recommend you check them out.
--:-- Host: Last but not least, Tivly. T-I-V-L-Y.com. Tivly is the only sponsor of this show, and they are an incredible company. We've been paying Tivly. Even though they sponsor this show, we pay them at Rogue. We're a client of theirs. We're a partner of theirs for over 18 months, well before the acquisition with SIA happened. One of the few tools that right now, obviously things can always change, but I have no reason to think that they would. Tivly is one of those tools that I just wouldn't get rid of. Absolutely positively. They're a partner I wouldn't get rid of. They're so willing to help and find ways to make whatever you need work. I love working with great people. If you want to learn more about them, go to tivly.com or go back in the archives of this show and listen to my conversation with Mark McClure and Kim Reid. I think you'll love that.
--:-- Host: With that, guys, let's get on to the tremendous Stephen Turnbull in this conversation right now. I'm going to Shaboom!
--:-- [Transition to conversation]
--:-- Host: Anytime I get my Zoom setting, anytime I'm invited to a Zoom, it puts Mikhail's name in there for some reason. But whatever. How you doing?
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: I'm good, bud. I'm excited to chat. I've wanted to have you on the show for a while. For a whole bunch of reasons, I had a whole mess of stuff going on. I had a few weeks where I just wasn't recording. I missed a couple weeks of the show. The good news is I have a big backlog going now, which is great.
--:-- Host: I love that Sabres jersey behind you. That's baller. Whose jersey is that?
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: It's Reinhart's jersey when he was there. Then Eichel, Reinhart, and Oposo signed it. That's when they did the Kraft Hockeyville thing and they came to Clinton and did the game. There's a legendary picture on the NHL's Instagram of me with my jersey pushing some 10-year-olds out of the way trying to get inside. I was like, wow, that was really aggressive. Now the entire world is looking at it.
--:-- Host: That's great. That's awesome, dude. Well, man, you've had quite the journey over the last year. It was awesome to spend time down in New York at Ben's thing. That was cool. I know you have the podcast and tons of people are listening to it, and you and Sean are doing really cool stuff. For people who listen to this show who maybe haven't heard of what you're up to or what you're doing, give them the quick lowdown on T5 and all that. Then we can get into the fun stuff.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: Sure. Well, I appreciate you having me on. Like you said, it's been a wild year. It's been only nine months of starting T5. I've been listening to your show for a while, and it's a surreal experience to be here now with you as an agency owner. So I appreciate you having me on.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: I've been in the industry for about seven and a half years now. I started my career working for my family agency here in Utica, New York. They had a long history, and I was the fifth generation on track to take it over. One thing led to another where that didn't end up happening. I left and started my own purely out of the feeling of wanting to do business differently, which you can relate to. I wanted to start my own baby and give it a try.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: I did that in May of last year. We're about nine months in. We got the podcast going. Got married in September. Did it all at once. It's been a roller coaster of the last nine months, but it's been rewarding and exciting and all that good stuff that comes with starting a business and jumping right ahead first. So it's been good.
--:-- Host: And you're crushing it. You're doing great. You're writing tons of insurance. From listening to some of your stuff and talking to you, it's not like you limped into it. You kind of got right in and running. It's like you had the treadmill going and you just jumped on it running at full speed, which is really cool.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: Yeah, the treadmill was going. The exciting part, and to my advantage too, was I just had so much bottled up in my head that I wanted to do in my previous agency that I wasn't able to do. It was an older lifestyle agency. The staff had been there for so long. You're trying to change old ways. It was one of those situations where I was just hitting my head. I had all this stuff bottled up inside my head of different ways to do things, different customer interactions that now I could do. Now I could build that foundation. There's no more of, "Oh, we did it this way." This is what we're doing.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: That's the biggest thing I'm focusing on now. It's just me and the agency still. I don't have any staff. It's just building that foundation, making sure that foundation is nice and set before we continue to keep going. But it's all been good stuff.
--:-- Host: One of the funny things about when we were down in New York together... For everybody listening, a week ago or a few weeks ago, I can't remember.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: It was last week.
--:-- Host: Yeah, it was last week. It seems like two months ago, but life moves so fast. I can't believe that was only a week ago. We were down in New York. Doug Benz put on this awesome mastermind thing. What was funny is Turnbull and Sean Fitzgerald are walking around with their laptops and little bags while we're going around, because that's the startup agency life. Someone calls, something has to be done. The only person to get it done is you.
--:-- Host: It's awesome. It's part of the deal. It's one of those memories. We've all done it. I did the same thing. Every single person who started an agency from scratch, especially if you're bootstrapping, has done that thing. If you started it in the laptop world, you know what I mean. Maybe you were walking around with a binder back in the day. But it was funny. Everyone's kind of walking around and these guys have their computer bags with them just in case. You could tell who the scratch guys were.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: Yeah, and look, that's part of the deal. That's part of the thing that makes you a good agency owner. You're not taking your responsibilities lightly by being like, "Ah, I can take a day off." As a scratch agency owner, a single guy, a single person, you can't take a day off. Your clients bought insurance from you. They're trusting that you're going to be there when they need you. You kind of have to be there.
--:-- Host: These are the days. I remember these days too. These are the days that you really remember. They cut into you. They're the scars that stay with you that allow you to push through some of the even harder stuff you're going to have to experience as you start hiring people. People are really tough. As you start taking on more vendors, more partnerships, more whatever... It seems tough at the beginning, but it only gets harder as you go for different reasons. It was fun to see you guys doing your thing. The mix of people there was awesome.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: Well, Friday... Did I just lose you?
--:-- Host: Yeah, just for a second. You're back now though.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: You said you were on the World Trade Center loop and you got a call.
--:-- Host: I was on the World Trade Center loop. We were about to head into the museum and I had to issue a binder quick. I was sitting there on the phone pumping that out. I didn't have the laptop with me that time. I said, "I'm going to risk it and not bring the laptop." It was kind of funny. You just like, "Okay, can we wait five minutes? Just taking the view for an extra five minutes. I got to send this out quick."
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: To your point, that's something I'll never forget. It's part of the journey. I think it's important to sit there and allow yourself to enjoy that as part of the journey, instead of just manifesting over, "Oh, I got to do this." It's like, "Hey, this is all part of it. This is what you're building. You'll remember these days."
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: I'm a visual person. You can see the "Trust the Process" sign behind me. I have some signs in front of me where I sit in the office. I think it's important to constantly remind yourself, especially starting an agency, of the end goal or whatever that may be for the next steps to get you through those long days and hard times.
--:-- Host: The reality is you made this decision to do this thing. I think that's the part that a lot of people forget. Or I think that's the part of the thing that people who haven't done it romanticize. Like, "Oh, I'm still going to live my life." It's like, no, no, no. Maybe you can, but there are trade-offs. You have to bring your freaking computer with you everywhere. You have to tell your wife or your partner, your friends or whoever you're with, or your kids, "Hey, I need 20 minutes to go do this thing. It's a non-negotiable. I have to."
--:-- Host: I've been with people who have had to walk off the beach or whatever the... I think it might be my computer. My computer is freaking out right now. It says I'm good and shows are still recording on my end.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: Yeah, I don't know. I have no idea what's going on. My computer screen just went black and it all messed up because my Mac blew up the other day.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: It went blue smoke on me. I have another Mac coming and I'm on a PC, which is the worst computer in the world.
--:-- Host: We could talk about this for hours. I'm on a PC and I went to the Mac because of the Hawksoft and PL rating stuff. You can work it on a Mac, but it's just way too many things you have to do and it's easier to do the PC. So I feel you there.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: One of the reasons that I'm actually not on Hawksoft is because of that requirement. I looked at Hawksoft a lot and I was like, early on, all I had was a Mac. That was what I had and I didn't have the money to buy a new computer at that time. Even though things are really wacky, it seems like it's still recording, so we're just going to keep going.
--:-- Host: Yeah, we're good. Actually, Hawksoft for me was fine. There was a back end you could get through. But the PL rating, the Raider, was the reason I had to move to PC. Anyway.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: You know what's crazy to me? We're on NextGen right now for our agency management system. They recently came up with some patches and now you can use a Mac for everything on NextGen. But when we first started looking at it back in August, you couldn't. They were like, "Not a lot of people ask for that." I'm like, "Really?" I guess. For me, my issue is that if I'm 100% effective on a Mac, on a PC I'm like 60% effective. I feel like a committee designed the UX of Microsoft, which it probably did. When you look at a Mac, it's like someone who actually uses this thing every day built it, not a committee.
--:-- Host: That's a good analogy. When you look at the user experiences in our industry, the few that wow us or excite us or seem like the future, it feels like someone was like, "This is the way it's supposed to be done. Let's do it this way. Let's get after it this way. Here's how I want people to go through the flow. Here's what I'm seeing." Then everything else feels like a group of risk managers sat in a room and said, "Let's come up with something that we all agree on. Let's come up with something that has every feature that could possibly have, because God forbid..."
--:-- Host: A good example of this is Better Agency. We're working with them on some things. A lot of people have mixed opinions about Better Agency. I think some of that was they went a little hard on their marketing a little too early. I think they would even agree that they made a lot of claims early that were not actually real. Now today, a lot of those claims are true. They actually make good on them. But I look at a tool like that and I'm like, that's a user experience that you can train one of your producers or CSRs on in an hour. We're six months into NextGen and we still have questions every single day about how to use it. It's incredibly complex.
--:-- Host: That's not a knock on NextGen. Epic, AMS 360, they're all the same. They're so complex. Their UX is so daunting that it's very difficult. What Better Agency doesn't have is every field, every button, everything. It doesn't have the full scope. There's this trade-off that we have to make in trying to design how we're going to run our agency and the experience that we want to give both our team and our customers that doesn't seem like it's been fully figured out yet.
--:-- Host: When you were starting to jump into your own software, I don't want to talk about specific software because that conversation gets kind of boring. I'm more interested in what the thought process was that you were going through when you had to make these decisions. Early on, some of these decisions can be booms or they can cripple you. How did you go through that thought process?
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: To your point, I got a little bit down the rabbit hole in the beginning, and then I kind of popped my head up and was like, "What are you doing here? Trying to change what you're used to?" I was on Hawksoft at my previous agency. That was just an easy swap for me. I was already familiar with the system. For me, it was just the familiarity of it. The last thing I had to do when starting the agency was try to learn a new system. I already knew it. I think it works well for what I need to do.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: The CRM I was on at the time wasn't talking to Hawksoft. That's how I got down the rabbit hole of wanting to find something that was more integrated. I did talk to Better Agency and look at that, but it just didn't make sense to change everything up at that time when I was three or four months in. I didn't necessarily want to because I was familiar. I knew where I needed to go in Hawksoft to do the things I needed to do. I ended up just taking on a new CRM that had the integrations already set up with Hawksoft and working through there, which was again something that was familiar.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: At my old agency, I was the only one using the CRM. It's not like there was somebody else that knew bells and whistles that I didn't. I would train myself on it. I was the only one using it. For me, it was just what's going to be the most familiar so that I can just focus on growth and selling policies. Down the road, if there's something else that makes sense that's going to solve a problem for us, we can certainly look at that. But it was just what's going to be the best thing to be able to grow as fast as possible.
--:-- Host: That feels like one of the things I wanted to key on in our conversation today: how you had the treadmill on seven and just jumped on running. I don't think that's common. I think a lot of people out of the gate struggle. They have months where they don't write business or they write tiny bits of business because it's hard. Doing all these different things. It seems to me like what I just heard was that one of the keys for you was that you used familiar systems. Making that decision allowed you to focus on what early on is the most important thing: not redefining the customer experience or revamping every part of the process, even the things you might have disliked. It was working with familiar tools so that you could sell business and pay the bills. Does that feel right?
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: Absolutely. Nailed it on the head.
--:-- Host: So your question is, what do you think attributed to me turning the treadmill up to going full speed right away? Is that what you're asking?
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: Yes.
--:-- Host: Something that I did, and admittedly I did not do this on purpose, it's just something I did. My previous agency was a last name agency, my last name. That's who I was known as. But something that I did, again not on purpose, was create the brand of Stephen Turnbull. When people wanted quotes or whatever on social media, or they got referred to me, it was always to my cell phone or to my personal page. It was just the fact that I was Stephen Turnbull with X, Y, and Z agency. It wasn't necessarily just me under the umbrella.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: When I did go off and start my own, it was, "Oh, well, we've done business with Steven. We're going to do business with Steven." Or we see him now in a different light. I'm still going through that transition. I'm very much community focused in the way that I bring in business and my inbound. I'm still trying to train the community and different things that I'm now with T5. But it's been an easier transition because most of my branding and stuff has been around the personal brand of me. Does that make sense?
--:-- Host: It absolutely does. There will come a day, most likely in the not-too-distant future, where you're going to hire a producer. As a producer, building that personal brand, using your cell phone, your personal email, text messaging, that makes a tremendous amount of sense. It allows you to do something like what you did. Now that you're an agency owner, how have you thought about that? What are your feelings on, now Jim Jones or Sally Smith comes in and she's doing the same thing. Calls are going to her personal cell phone. People are texting her. People are doing business with Sally Smith, not T5. Does that scare you? Does it worry you? Or are you of the camp like, "Hey, if I treat them well, it's all good. They'll be here." It worked for you in this transition very well. I can see why it did. But does that same philosophy, now that you're the agency owner, make you nervous?
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: Yes. No. I'll tell you why. I think when I bring on producers, T5 is going to have the culture. I don't think, I know T5 is going to have the culture where they're going to be able to do those types of things within the culture. The reason that I, again not on purpose, was creating that personal brand was because it was not possible for me to do under the agency. Not possible in the sense that I was the only one rowing the boat in one direction.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: Trying to simply do business different ways, implement e-sign... You have to understand this agency. My family agency has been around for 156 years. I joined in 2016. I was the first new hire for 22 years.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: When I joined fresh out of college in 2016, it was, "Why does the website say under construction? What is social media?" This and that. I built all that up to the point where I was rowing the boat in one direction. Now, the experience and the headaches and the feeling of banging my head into the wall time and time again because I've had those experiences, I now know what I want to do differently now that I'm in the role of the owner. I can provide that young producer, that new producer, the tools that they need to build their brand with T5 and not have any roadblocks. I'll be able to continue to remind myself, when I become the first-time boss of a producer, whatever that is, of the experiences that I had and to try to provide them something different.
--:-- Host: I love that. I completely agree with you. I think that experience is going to pay so many dividends for you when you start to hire people. You'll be able to talk to them about the things they're feeling, about the questions they have. There's an empathy that I'd like to believe I have, you have, and many others, because we have these experiences of just getting no, or getting questioned, or seeing results and having people just dismiss them because it wasn't the way business was normally brought in. I feel like it does give you a competitive advantage sometimes in the hiring because you can talk to producers in a way that doesn't seem like a boss talking to a producer. It seems like someone who's been there before talking to someone who's there now. That is definitely a big competitive advantage.
--:-- Host: It's funny to me in our industry, this conversation is often frowned upon. Traditionally, "Nah, they shouldn't have their own brand. It's all about the agency." One of the things that's really interesting is that's so much ego. There's so much ego in our industry, especially because last names are on businesses. It's all about that last name.
--:-- Host: I look at my buddy. This morning I'm looking to buy a house and a buddy of mine owns probably the best real estate firm in the town that I live in and want to purchase in. His name is Mike Field, Field Realty. In the real estate industry, this is not a thing. He's got this one woman, her name's Joanna. She's great. Her pictures are on all the signs. It's Joanna. She's awesome. I know her. But it's her brand. It's just Field Realty. The colors are red with Field Realty behind her, but all the signs are her with her arms crossed and her face and her name. Her name is on the sign above the Field Realty logo.
--:-- Host: Why is it that the real estate industry does this so well, this personal branding of what would be equivalent to a producer in real estate in insurance? It's like, "Nope, I don't want your name anywhere. It's not about you. It's about the agency." What do you think it is about our culture? Is it just simply ego? Is it the way we're compensated? Is it the business model? What is your take on that?
--:-- Host: I just think everyone's scared of change. Yeah. You know, I just think everyone's scared of change. And I want to preface this comment by just saying, there's one of the things that has amazed me in the first nine months of owning an agency is how many different ways there are to skin the cat. Right. My family has an old lifestyle agency. You go into the office at 8:30 to 5, you're there till 4:59, paper, you name it. And they're very successful and they have been, and that's great.
--:-- Host: But where was I going with that? The point... I lost my thought. Why the real estate industry is better at... Oh, scared to change. Scared to change. And I think to go back to the personal branding thing, I always remember I once asked my father who was in the agency about getting outside producers. And we've never had an outside producer that wasn't a last name, to your point about last name. And this kind of answers the question before, so I apologize. But I always said, why don't we try to hire a young producer? And the first reaction was, well, what happens if they leave?
--:-- Host: And my immediate thought was, well, that's your fault as the owner. That's our fault as the managers. People are going to leave, move, or not like the job. But if you're providing that culture and transitioning into your next question, providing them the opportunity to grow their brand or do whatever they want to do along the scopes where it makes sense for your agency and the growth, so that they enjoy their job, you're doing a good job, the agency is growing. There should be no reason for them to want to leave.
--:-- Host: I think with our age in the insurance industry, it's like two separate sides of the aisle: the people that are wanting to change and the people that just don't want to change. And there's very little in the middle. There's so much fear of changing the apple cart versus we got to be ahead of the next best thing. From the branding point, going back to your question, it's probably part ego. Like, this is my business and you're going to go out there and brand yourself separately. But I just think it mainly comes down to the fact of the old lifestyle agencies that just are scared of change and scared of doing things a different way.
--:-- [Host interjects with a personal request for listeners to subscribe, share, and leave reviews to help the show grow. He thanks the audience and returns to the episode.]:
--:-- Host: I was thinking about this the other day. Actually, while we were at Doug's thing down in New York, I feel like a big part of this change, or this difference... And I don't know your dad. I don't know your uncle. I don't know your previous agency. I just know you. But I think a big part of that friction is that the legacy of our industry is risk managers. People were everything was risk, risk, risk. Everyone says we're risk managers. I'll be honest with you, I don't know anybody who's 45 and under in this industry, maybe a couple that are hardcore risk managers. They're salespeople.
--:-- Host: It doesn't mean they don't appreciate risk. It doesn't mean they aren't good at what we do from an actual nerdy insurance standpoint, but they're salespeople. To be good at this job today, the people that get it, that love it, that are grinding, that are pushing, they're growing, they're salespeople. I feel like that hasn't always been the case. I felt like the people who built this industry were true risk managers. Because of the nature of everything being local, you just sat there and walked around houses and nitpicked cracks and steps and handrails and peeling paint.
--:-- Host: And it was like, "Oh, that wood chip could have some chemical in it, and we need to mitigate that." I get that. I'm not saying right or wrong. I think it's an evolution. I think some of it is the homogeny of insurance products. 20, 30, 40 years ago, the difference in coverage from carrier to carrier was very wide. There was a huge gap. So knowing how to do these things and what carriers to put it with was a big part of the business. Today, personal auto, home, umbrella, these things are so homogenous. I can't imagine there are even very many words that are different in a policy form. In a small commercial BOP, it's almost exactly the same. There is no meaningful difference between most of the standard BOPs you'll see in the market.
--:-- Host: So I feel like today, you're a salesperson. You're a marketer. You're trying to grow. And you're talking to someone who grew up, who lives, who breathes, and thinks risk management. And that feels like one of the primary drivers of the difference. I don't know. That's just a theory. What do you think about that? Is that something you see?
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: Yeah, I definitely agree with you. I think social media and the way to connect virtually and different things have provided us a different way to sell. I've said this all along. I tell people all the time, if you do your job and do the right thing, you're going to be successful. Especially in this industry. If you just do your job, are available for your client, and do the right thing by your client. And by the way, doing the right thing might be, "Hey Mr. and Mrs. Smith, I'm sorry, your home and auto is in the best place, but we'd be happy to look at it next year."
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: That's the way I've grown my brand. I've never made a cold call. I haven't been that type of salesy person. I've led with the educational approach. "I'm here to help you solve a problem. I'm here if you need it." With the referral relationships I've made in my community involvement, it's just kind of morphed into me being the local young insurance guy that's getting after it. That has worked out very well because my pipeline is continuously full just from inbound referrals.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: Instead of your point of nitpicking different aspects or trying to sell with that, it's just kind of more... I hate to use the word holistically, but trying to just be there from an educational standpoint and do the right thing by the client. Does that answer your question at all? Or did I go off again?
--:-- Host: No, you're not. It's good. Do you think that your town plays a role? How much do you think being in Utica, being a smaller town in upstate New York with a community of people who tend to know each other, tend to stay there, that's their town... How many people in Utica? 50,000? 60,000? So it's big enough to have plenty of opportunity but not so big that you probably know a lot of the major players. Everyone's kind of seen each other. If you go to a larger market, that local man-about-town game, I just don't know that it works as well, or it's certainly significantly more difficult.
--:-- Host: Do you think part of your success is that your way, your disposition, your preferred method of growing an agency fits very well with the geographic location and the community that you're in right now?
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: Yeah, I would agree. I would say so. But I wouldn't tie it just to Utica and the makeup of what Utica is about. I would tie it into being very present. At 28 years old, I was already the president of the Rotary Club. I serve on the local chamber or compass board. I'm vice president of the BNI group. All these things I've already just engulfed myself in to try to get me out there. Even when I was working for my last name insurance agency, that was great, but I needed to create the brand of me to get out there and get my own people. Now it's the same, but different with T5.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: Just being present and being able to be the insurance guy that people see at the chamber event or at their son's soccer game. I definitely think the small town feel helps, but I also think on top of that, it's helped that I just kind of make myself seen in the community and known as the young gun insurance guy, if you will, for as much as I hate to say that.
--:-- Host: No, I think that's great. I think my point there, and I think you made it perfectly, was you kind of have to fit who you are, what you like to do, how you like to prospect, how you like to grow your business to the customers you want to serve for sure. But I think the community that you're in and the disposition of that community, it matters. You take the way you're doing things and put yourself in Boston or Westchester or Long Island. Not that it wouldn't work, but it may not work as fast. There's a ton of people, a lot of transients, a lot of people who don't care that you're the man about town. They're just looking to get through their life. They're busy. They don't know who you are from Adam.
--:-- Host: In your town, being a person about town, a guy who supports Utica, who invests himself, that really matters. If you were to go hardcore Google paid ads and search, it probably doesn't work as well or certainly doesn't get you the traction. It did for me here in Albany, which if you count the surrounding areas, is about 750,000 to 800,000 people. Someone in a larger market has to take different tactics. It definitely seems like today, that local man or woman about town works incredibly well in some regions. In other regions, it may still work, may take a little more time, may not allow them to get off the ground. You almost have to fit your marketing strategy and sales strategy to the customers you want to serve for sure. But I think today, as a strong piece of the puzzle, you have to match it to the community you're in, the geographic region, the disposition and flow.
--:-- Host: Here in Albany, you have two types of people. You have state workers who've lived here forever who don't give a shit about anything. And then you have people who are from some other place that are here because it's the seventh largest government and one of the most corrupt governments in the world. New York is terrible. Don't move here. And they don't give a shit. So if you go to Albany, local doesn't mean anything. But if you go to my buddy who's in Latham, a town of like 15,000 people, or Clifton Park, another suburb of probably 30,000 people, you have to really drill down for that to work. For my ex-wife's family agency, the Murray Group, Albany was their local. Back when that agency was started, local had a much wider reach.
--:-- Host: I think it's important to identify that, but I also think it's important to sprinkle in other ways. When I started the scratch agency, the podcast with Sean, we met a good core group of people. We have a weekly call. We're all new agency owners within at least two and a half years. There's me, who has never made a cold call, completely community-based or inbound referrals. And one of the other guys in there is strictly cold calls and he does super good. We've learned off of each other. He has his office in a spare bedroom in his house and he just hammers the phone all day long and is very successful. I'm on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. I'll say that's one of my flaws. I need to be better at doing more outbound stuff instead of just the inbound referral stuff.
--:-- Host: Why is that a flaw?
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: Well, I think there's a little bit of missed opportunity. If you're cold calling, you're not asking for referrals. You're not following up on referrals. You're not out at an event. I go back and forth on this. This is an honest question. I used to listen to Gary Vaynerchuk a lot. One of his takes was don't try to fix your flaws, double or triple into your strengths. If your strength is being the community guy, you're great at leading organizations, gathering people together, connecting people, being about town, you love it, you're good at it, people know you that way. Why not find ways to double and triple into that versus trying to learn how to cold call, which is going to suck the life out of you because it's not natural? For this other guy, it's obviously something that puts life into him. It really drives him because he's willing to do it all the time.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: Cold calling? I hate it. I absolutely hate it. But I also don't love being out around town and doing events. I really like digital marketing. That's why I double and triple into digital marketing, because that's what I really like. I would caution... I don't say caution, that makes it sound like I know what I'm talking about.
--:-- Host: No, you're absolutely right. I think it's worth thinking about. Is that really a missed opportunity for you? Unless you're trying to make T5 into a middle market powerhouse, why do you need to cold call? Even then, I don't think you have to cold call to be good at that. I always think about, should I try to learn a new skill or should I just get better at what I like doing and already know how to do and just become the best? I don't know.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: Nope. You're absolutely right. That makes complete sense. Here you go again, Hanley, getting my mind spinning. Now I'm going to be thinking about this for another week, just like my first employee.
--:-- Host: Well, that was an interesting conversation. I don't know right or wrong. I just think about these things. I consider everything an experiment in my life. Everything. They're all experiments and projects. I have very few things that are core values that dictate my life and what I believe in. But when it comes to business and these kinds of things, I think projects and experiments. I tried cold calling. I've tried a lot of different things. I did a lot of what you're doing early in my career and found that going to the networking events constantly, I run out of steam doing that. But I could literally make videos. Last night at midnight, I'm working on SEO on my website because it's fun. For other people, their brain would melt and it would be terrible and they would hate it. So versus trying to deplete ourselves in places that drain our energy, why not just be the man or woman in the things that we do really well and love?
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: No, you're absolutely right. You got my mind spinning about a lot here. Perfect example. I don't want anybody listening to this to be like, "Oh my God, that's a great idea. I need to do it," because I'm going to have the same outcome. I think there's a lot of luck. When I first announced T5, I knew I had to be as loud as possible about "Now Stephen Turnbull is with T5" because it was always with the other agency. At the end of May, I bought a Yeti cooler. I got a big T5 logo, slapped it on there, and did a "World for Business" big giveaway. I got maybe 120 people that entered into it locally. I wrote three homeowners policies from it that paid for the cooler three times. I got people on my email list. That's still the community stuff. I think it's so much more than going to the networking events.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: I just started a referral program internally. I have not put that out there and said, "Hey, we're doing this great referral program. You'll get a $5 coffee gift card." I've just done it internally for the ones that I've had. That's been eye-opening because I'm actually tracking each and every one. I'm at like an 80% closure rate with those inbound referrals so far for 2023 on the ones that I'm tracking. To your point, why not double down on exactly what has worked well up until this point? I'm still just by myself and there's so much more that I want to do around community involvement and inbound referral type things that I either need to wait until I have some more help or more time.
--:-- Host: Think about it. You start cold calling because cold calling is a skill. Anyone who cold calls as part of their business, I give a tremendous amount of respect to because it is its own skill that seems easy but is incredibly difficult. You read a cold calling ebook or listen to somebody on a webinar. They talk about it. The things they're saying, you're going, "Yeah, I can do that. I can say that. There's a script. That's great. I can use that script." And then you do it and you're terrible at it for a very long time. Unless you're one of those people who just naturally can do it. Not that you can't learn the skill, but there are people who gravitate towards it.
--:-- Host: You're a solo guy. You don't have any backup yet. You're having a ton of success in these community-based things. You don't have any designs to be in 17 states. You want to dominate your market and you can make so much money and maybe expand to some towns outside of that, at least for now. Think about how much time you're going to waste trying to learn how to cold call. You're going to waste days and weeks, and maybe longer trying to get accounts in. Even then, those accounts that you get in cold calling, you're going to have to service those accounts. That's going to be a nightmare.
--:-- Host: That is the way that I've kind of started to think. If I want to do outbound prospecting, and granted, having sold the agency, I had the budget to do this. I hired producers who know how to do that work because they like it and they're good at it. I don't have to learn how to do it. I respect it. I think it's amazing, but I don't have to do it. I've kind of gotten to the point where I don't really want to learn new shit unless it's absolutely necessary. I want to hire people that know the shit that I don't know. I just want to be really good at the things that I'm good at. Then bring in people who love to do, find enjoyment in, know how to do, are excellent at all the other stuff. Learning new stuff sucks and it takes forever.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: It takes so much time, like you said. That's the one thing I love about how much inbound we do from the sales process or marketing process. Most of everything that comes in is so warm. It's like, "Sally told me to call you. Here's the problem I'm having." Or "Sally said you're the best one. Here's everything. Let me know." I've never really been that type of salesy person. I can sell, but it's never been a high pressure type of sales strategy. That is what I enjoy. It sounds cliche, but it's just coming down to making the relationships and morphing those relationships.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: The amount of opportunity that's out there is unbelievable. I never had this relationship in my previous agency, but I kept driving by this local mortgage company. I'm like, "Why have I not even tried to reach out to him?" Found the guy on LinkedIn, got his email, sent him a video of myself. I was like, "Hey, here's who I am. This is what I'm trying to build with T5. Here's why I think we'd work well together." Within that week, he sent me two deals and now everybody in his office is sending me stuff. They're just feeding me like a happy pig. That was just from a simple opportunity and saying, "Hey, I know you may have a relationship already, but if you don't, or if you can't get in touch with that person, I'd be happy to help. Here's who I am. Here's why I think I could benefit you." It's worked out well. That's the strategy that I enjoy.
--:-- Host: Dude, that's awesome. One, it takes balls. You did cold outreach to that person too. I love the fact that you used video to do it. It immediately separates you. It immediately humanizes you. Loom videos, video, whatever you're using. Those little things are so personal. I love Loom videos. We use Loom. I tried Vidyard. Not only is it cheaper, but I prefer Loom personally after testing Vidyard for a year. I absolutely love that. Now you have this consistent flow of leads coming in. As long as you do some touch-ins and do a good job for his clients, that's a referral source for years. It's amazing.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: To your point about video, for anybody listening, don't narrow your focus to just video proposals. I told you this when we were in the city. I had the opportunity and got really close to purchasing a small book about six months in. I did a five to six minute video on who Stephen Turnbull is, what my vision is of T5, why I think it'd be a great opportunity for me and the family that was selling the small book. The facilitator of the sale called me specifically to say the family wanted to let you know that somebody offered almost double what you did, which wouldn't have made sense for me anyway. But they specifically wanted me to call because they appreciated your offer and the personalization you made. That was me instead of writing out this big letter on my letterhead and signing it saying, "I'm the best one. Call me." It was just a quick video. "Hey, here's who I am. Love the opportunity to have a conversation about buying your business." If it wasn't for somebody coming in and paying double, I probably would have got it. I always try to think, what's everyone else not doing?
--:-- Host: Classic. This is cliche at this point, but Warren Buffett's quote around when other people are fearful, be greedy. And when other people are greedy, be fearful. I kind of live by that. It's certainly the way that I invest. I will go years and not even look at my investments. Then when the market goes down, I'm just like, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy. I'll be super active. Then the market will start to go back up and I'll forget that I even have the investments. I literally won't even think about them. When the market's going up, I literally forget that I even have stuff in the market.
--:-- Host: For our industry, I think what you just described is a wonderful way to do it. There was this craze for a while where everyone was mortgage brokers, mortgage brokers. Not that that has gone away, but everybody was talking about mortgage brokers. It felt to me like, okay, if everyone's doing the mortgage broker play, what differentiates you from these other people? If you're also going to go after mortgage brokers, you can't just say, "I'm going to do a good job." It's humanizing, personalizing. That video says, "Look, I'm willing to put my face out here." Because a random email is so easy. You know what I mean?
--:-- Host: You're not really taking a risk or even a phone call, but like saying, "Here's something that you could share." If I look like a dope or sound stupid, you could share this. There's some reputational risk in there that I think keeps people from moving forward. I think that's wonderful. I think it's absolutely what you have to do.
--:-- Host: And dude, I couldn't be more happy — and not that it means anything to you — but proud of you and the work that you did. We had a great lunch right when you were first starting. I just think it's awesome to watch what you're doing. I can't wait till a year or two from now. I think you're going to be an absolute case study on what the first year, two years, three years of a scratch agency looks like. I'm just so happy for you.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: Yeah, well, just to correct you, it does mean something to me because I appreciate you. You've always been super. Even when I was at the previous agency, I remember we had a conversation and I'm like, "Hey, I'm this little guy just down the road from you in Utica. This is what I'm thinking of doing." And you're like, "Do it." I remember you're like, "Buy a computer, buy this system, and you'll be fine. Go ahead." So to fast forward here and we're talking about my own agency and stuff, it's special. So I appreciate you having me on.
--:-- Host: Well, I think in the not too distant future — not that this is the bar for what success is — but I do think that you'll be a household name in the industry. I think it's tremendous. I love what you and your crew of people, the scratch agency stuff that you're doing. I think these are the conversations that need to happen. For so long, starting a scratch agency was almost frowned upon because no one wanted additional competition or no one thought you could do it. Today, I think to be saying, "Look, this stuff isn't easy, but it's achievable. It's real. You can do it. Look at we did it. Look at how we did it. This could be yours if you want." I think it's absolutely wonderful. I think that we need to hold up what scratch agents are doing and support them. Dude, I just couldn't be more happy for your early success. I can't wait to see where you take it.
--:-- Host: If people want to learn more about you, more about your agency, if they want to connect with you, see your podcast, listen to your podcast — tell them. Give all the CTAs. Where do people go?
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: Yeah. Real quick, before I jump into that, I just want to say: if anybody's listening to this and they're in a similar situation, maybe they feel like they're stuck and they can't get out — just remember, and I wish somebody said this to me earlier, that you're the only person that's gonna make a change in your life. You are the only one. There's a reason that the flight attendants tell you to put your mask on before helping others. If you don't take that hard decision to do it, nothing's gonna change. So just do it. I just wanted to add to that.
--:-- Host: Yeah, I love that. You know, I wish someone told me that early on.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: But yeah, like you said, I appreciate you saying the podcast. Sean Fitzgerald and I started a Scratch Agency podcast. We're like 17 episodes in, and man, it's been just fun. Everyone's like, "What's the plan with this? This and that?" It's just to have fun. We've had great conversations. So you can check us out there. I'm very active on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn at Stephen Turnbull, and then T5 Insurance. So if anybody wants to pick my brain about anything we talked about today or just connect, we'd love to connect with new people and happy to have a conversation.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: But Ryan, thanks again for having me. I appreciate your friendship and your willingness to always help. It's much appreciated, and I look forward to working together in the future here.
--:-- Host: Yeah, same buddy. We'll connect IRL here real soon. So all the best to you, and we'll get out of here.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: All right, take care.
--:-- Stephen Turnbull: See you.
--:-- [End of conversation]
--:-- [Promotional message begins]
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