--:-- Ryan Hanley: Hello everyone and welcome back to the show. Today we have an absolutely tremendous conversation for you with CJ Hutsenpiller. He is young, scrappy, and hungry according to his LinkedIn profile. But what I absolutely know is he is a baller when it comes to all things insurance, independent agencies, and particularly digital marketing and technology. We just have a very broad, very dynamic conversation about the industry, about tech, about what's happening in different spaces and different markets. I love this conversation.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: CJ's a tremendous follow on Twitter as well. A great guy, someone I'm a big fan of and have wanted to have on the show for a long time. Sometimes you just don't get to people, and I finally just said, I got to have CJ on. I want to talk to this dude. We had a wonderful conversation. You are going to love this. Happy to share it with you.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Before we get there, guys, if you love this podcast, you will love the blog, findingpeak.com. Go to findingpeak.com. Every Friday, an article comes out for free. It's about peak performance in life and business and relationships, how we put ourselves in a position to win psychologically, emotionally, physically. I love writing it, and if you enjoy this podcast, I think you're going to love reading it. So go to findingpeak.com, sign up, like I said, for free.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Also, guys, big shout out to our sponsor, Tivly, T-I-V-L-Y.com. Tivly used to be commercialinsurance.net. Now they're Tivly, as in positively, and they are the foundation of our consistent lead flow. We are getting targeted, consistent leads coming in. We build specific campaigns for specific producers that dial in on a niche. We build geographic campaigns. We have all these different types of leads flowing into our business so that we can constantly have opportunities for our team and constantly be growing, and Tivly is an enormous part of that. Go to T-I-V-L-Y.com today.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: All right. With that, let's get on to CJ Hutsenpiller in this absolutely tremendous conversation.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I'm going to shampoo. What's up, brother?
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: Dude, what's going on? How are you?
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I'm good, man. Good, good, good. What's up with you?
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: Not a lot. I think I'm about to go see some of your counterparts over at SIAA.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah? What are you doing with those guys?
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: Apparently they're having some sort of conference or something here in Nashville.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I think a lot of the master agencies are in Nashville this week. It's a manual thing they do.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: Yeah, so I'm going to go. Jack Hurtvick is a friend of mine and he asked me to go to lunch today. He told me that conference was going on. I was like, that's weird, I hadn't heard anything about it. But you say it's just for master agencies or whatever, that makes complete sense.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, I think twice a year they do a powwow where everybody gets together, just the master agencies. They do it once in Boston and then once in Nashville.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: Yeah, so that's going on apparently down there today.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Sorry, my light went off there again.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: No, you're good. You're good.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: So dude, I'm excited to have you on and just chat. I obviously see you all over and I love the stuff you're doing. I think it's great. You're a great Twitter follow.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: Thank you. Bradley Flowers actually kind of got me back on Twitter. I use Twitter for sports. I'm a hockey guy. I'm a big Nashville Predators fan, even though they're terrible. But that's an irrelevant conversation. He was like, hey, man, you should start putting some of the stuff you're doing in your agency on Twitter. And I was like, okay, is that it? So it's been fun. I love the banter and the back and forth. It's been really good.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, it's funny. Twitter is such an interesting monster. I love Twitter. I've been on since like 2008, really early. I've never really tried to grow a following. I've always just found it so interesting to watch what people will say and how they react. I had a really interesting moment. I'm not a huge fan of lefties in general, not to get political. My viewpoints tend to not exactly line up with theirs. And you're in New York, right?
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: I'm in New York. Yeah.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: So it's lonely. Although you'd be surprised. This is one of the states that is least understood. You have all these bananas, 24-year-old dipshits down in the city who bleed blue and have no clue how the world works. So they just vote for these Democrats. The rest of us in upstate New York, most of my friends are either moderate Dems, perfectly reasonable humans, or maybe slightly to the right. The state comes off as this crazy lefty nuts just because of the city. If New York City wasn't there, we would probably be like an Ohio. We'd be a purple, solid purple state. But it's funny.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: So needless to say, I'm on Twitter and there's this account I follow. The handle is Albany Muskrat. It's a person. I have no idea who it is. They just share old timey stories and photos of Albany. Albany was the first incorporated city in the United States, 1664. So we have this very old rich history. It's been completely destroyed again by progressives, but it was this beautiful place with tons of really interesting transportation technology because we had the river, the railroads, and the Erie Canal. It's got a really dynamic history.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: So she, now I know it's a she, I didn't know it was she at the time. Yesterday she posts. I knew it was probably this woman leaning left because every once in a while she does random Trump derangement syndrome type stuff, which is fine. But she posted something about gun violence. It was like, we got to take the guns. I thought we were having a pretty standard conversation. I just said, yes, but we also need to address things like mental health and poverty and deprivation. Bro, this woman goes off the chain. She starts using all these English major words. Word games are classic leftist play. She's talking about how I'm ad hominem attacking her and how dare I. Then they look into my background, find out, "Oh, he works at the Murray Group," which is my ex-wife's agency that I haven't been at in nine years. They call the agency to see if I work there because they were going to drop their insurance or something if I work there. I'm like, I don't work there anymore. I'm literally sharing rogue whistle. This is the company that I own and work for.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: It was this reminder to me of one, well, I don't want to go down this rabbit hole because I'm interviewing you and I haven't let you talk at all. But two, it was this reminder of how you just have to be careful on Twitter. If you want to engage in that shit or go beyond just sharing lighthearted stuff, man, it can escalate quickly.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: Very quickly. It's funny, the other day I made a post that was kind of similar to that. I had people coming out of Canada at me. I was like, bro, I wasn't even talking about you. What are you going on about? But that's a good one.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: The old picture thing, and it's kind of to spin this back to insurance, that's like one of our agency's number one web lead magnets. We have a gallery of old images of our town on our website. We push some basic traffic to it. It does really, really well at converting because typically it's people that are from the area. They're really good prospects for us. It converts really, really well.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, I can see that. That's a really cool strategy. Having done local with the Murray Group for eight years, it was all local, local, local. Now flipping to a national, there is a grass is always greener mentality. I meet a lot of people who market locally and they're always like, "Oh, if only I could pull from a bigger pool. If only I could do TikTok ads or Instagram." All these strategies. I'm like, yes, when you're going national, you can get bigger numbers doing those things, but it is not easier. Local is, I don't want to say easier because nothing is easy, but you can do really cool things that people grab onto. Nationally, it's tough to get those campaigns because of how bifurcated. Their glasses are green. Culturally different in areas like that. Ad copy that hits in my area is not going to hit the same in New York. The way we talk is different. The things that are important to us are different.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I personally love the hyper local stuff. The national level of things is, to me, I'm glad I don't have to deal with that. I focus on my little region and that's it. For that very purpose, I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I can make ad copy that's relevant to somebody in Washington state. It's just not how I'm wired.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I never wanted to go national when I first launched Rogue. The first vision for this agency was not to go national. It was to take what David Carruthers teaches and what Mick Hunt teaches, smash them together, and be a middle market kind of digital producer for the greater Albany Eastern area. There was no one really doing anything different. I thought I could move into that space. Then because of COVID, that forced me to go national. But man, there are days when I wake up and I'm like, God, I'd love to just be the local guy. You're worried about Washington state needs this document and this thing over here. You get into this multi-state and then here you need to have this notarized. You're just like, oh my God, it gets overwhelming.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: My point in saying all this is that I get a lot of messages from people pining for larger numbers that look sexy when you go to a bigger audience. I would just be careful of that. Not for you, you seemingly have it locked in, but for a lot of people listening.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: To that extent, I'm not familiar with your origin story. Let's turn this back into a real interview. What's the origin story? I know a lot of people know you and are very familiar, but for anyone who isn't.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: To give everybody context, I own a family agency. My mom started it in 1992. She was pregnant with my sister. She says that I begged her not to go to work one day. She literally went in and quit her job and started her own insurance agency out of her house. I do remember that part. The agency grew up until probably 2008 or 2006, I graduated high school, just to age me a little bit. My mom made me and my sister, as soon as we turned 18, get our insurance licenses for no other reason than she wanted us to have them. She said, "Something never happens to me, I want you to be able to not have any kind of income flow issues with the business." Cool. Fine. So we did.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: In 2008, I decided I wanted to come on full time. She did not want to hire me. I was young. I was a little wild. Looking back, I wouldn't have hired me either. But she had a receptionist position come available and I applied for it. I was like, "Mom, I want to work at the agency." She's like, "You want to be a receptionist?" I was like, "I don't care what I have to do. I just want my foot in the door." So I was the receptionist. I literally did everything that a receptionist would do. I did non-pay calls. I followed up on claims. I did all the things that you would pay a VA to do now. I was the VA.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: I did that, and then she finally got some trust in me, moved me to customer service. From there, she figured out that I was pretty good at selling insurance. My mom has always been really tech forward, always thought that way about making processes more efficient. We went paperless in 2006, just to give context of where her head was. Tech has always been a thing, but we never had a ton of money for tech. It ended up with me building a lot of our own stuff. A lot of agents thought that was cool. That's kind of how I got a little bit of attention online from some people. Simply because I was building stuff that companies were charging thousands and thousands of dollars for, and I was doing them for a $20 monthly subscription to Zapier or whatever.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: That's kind of my origin story, how I got there, how we are where we are today. Mostly personal, mixed personal and commercial. I know you do a lot of private client.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I try to. I play in that space.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: The agency is 89% personal lines, 11% commercial. Actually, it's probably more like 10% commercial, 1% just ancillary random whatevers. But mostly personal lines. I think that's one of the places that our agency differentiates. I know there's a lot of people that think you can't make money in personal lines because it's really service heavy, and they're right. It is service heavy. But one thing that we really focus in on is how can we make our processes and servicing personal lines more efficient. Our little motto for the agency is, "Where the convenience of online shopping meets the security of having a local insurance agent." That's the mix. That's what we strive to create for the experience purposes.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: That's right in line with what I talk about sometimes, called human optimized. It's putting our humans in the places where they can actually add value instead of using them for all these random tasks, like basically what you learned on, doing all the processing and all that kind of stuff.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: What it really showed me then, I look back on it now, is I was a cheap employee. I'm a family member. You can get those inexpensively. But a typical agency is hiring somebody to do those tasks. I'm just looking at these things going, this is so inefficient. The way that we're doing, we're data entering two, three, four times on stuff. We're doing all these things. For me, that was really where I started being like, this can be done better. That's kind of how we led into that.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Now are you using VAs or RPAs or anything like that?
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: Both. A lot of people think that I would be a VA fan. I am not a VA fan as far as out of the country VA type person. I can justify the math. The math makes sense to me. The people part for me is important. So we utilize virtual employees, but I don't have VAs. We do have all kinds of different bots. I have played with robotic process automation bots. We do a lot of chatbot stuff. That's something for us. But as far as the VAs, we do not have any. We currently have 15 team members and they're all located in the state of Tennessee.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Gotcha. So a virtual employee would still be in Tennessee, just maybe not necessarily coming into the office every day.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: Correct. I had this, I don't even want to call it an epiphany, but in 2019, shockingly enough, we hired our first virtual employee late 2019. Great timing. That was not intentional. That wasn't us being like, "Oh, COVID's about to happen. We should start looking into this virtual thing." But my mindset shifted. One of the things, right now it's hard to find talent for your insurance agency. The traditional insurance model says you hire somebody that drives to your office every day. The problem with that is you're not getting the best person. You're getting the best person that happens to live close enough to drive to your office for the salary that you pay them.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: For me, I was like, if I want to build the best team, I'm really limiting myself to this 25 mile radius around my town. My mind kind of shifted. Okay, we need to look at hiring the best person instead of the most convenient person. That's kind of where we started bringing in virtual people. What I would do is on Facebook, I connect with all kinds of insurance agents. I tell people that if you're my friend on Facebook and you're an insurance agent, I'm trying to hire you at some point. I just watch them. When we find one that's good, we'll try to pursue them. That's been our hiring strategy and it's worked out really well. We have not had a problem hiring. A lot of people ask questions about that, and I just say, that's what I use social media for.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: The reason I post shit on Instagram, all my social for the most part, 98% of the social media that I do is recruiting or selling Rogue. I think that people confuse things. They'll see something and it'll be like, you do the dad jokes, the bad jokes or whatever. It's all just meant to show personality, culture, authenticity to who you are. When you get into that interview, the person's not questioning, "Can I trust this person?" Those are the first barriers in an interview you really have to break down. Does this seem like someone that I could actually trust? That goes both ways. By being very vocal and outspoken in social in terms of our culture as a business, me personally as a leader, et cetera, I found that a lot of people come in and from that standpoint, they're already sold. They know that we're a certain type of business.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: I see that in a lot of the stuff that you do and a lot of the things that you share. I can see similarities. It might feel personal, but it's also showing a big part of who you are, who your agency is, and what you guys are all about.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Absolutely. It also gives you the opportunity to pre-interview your prospects. You can tell a lot about somebody by following them for 30 days on social media. You can kind of figure out, and our agency, most of our marketing is around digital. Even the lack of social presence tells me whether or not they're going to be a good fit. I can kind of see that before I even make that plunge to go any further. "Okay, this person would be good." Or, "This person isn't somebody." "Hey, I dodged a bullet on this one. I thought this person would be great. I get on their Facebook, they're fighting with people, all these different things." "Okay, maybe this isn't the right person." Then you never had to waste your time interviewing them.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: Yes. Worst case, hiring them and finding out after.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Which is interesting. I definitely have learned the hard way. One thing, and I don't know if you see this at all with some of the people you hire because you are so active on social. There are people, and I don't want this to come off wrong, but there are people that will apply to work for Rogue because of my social media presence. They see you, they see you're active. I know I'm not the only one. There are other agency owners that I've talked to that are active that say the same thing. That is really difficult because they've been following you. They know what you're into. They know what things you like. It makes it very easy for them to sculpt their answers to what they think you want to hear.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I have hired at least once, probably multiple times, more than multiple times, and gone, as soon as the person comes in, they can be so good at hiding their work ethic. They can say all the right things. You get them in and you're like, son of a bitch. This person just knew the series of words to say to sound right.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: At our agency, I've had that problem. I tell people, we wrote the book on hiring people wrong. Thankfully, we've kind of learned from that. I always tell people, I don't hire anyone at my agency. Literally, we don't. Our process is pretty simple. We do an interview, me and them, just to make sure that in that interview, I'm kind of just feeling them out. I'm also feeling out how are you compensated currently? What's it going to take? What's important to you to even make you want to move? Because I don't want to waste anyone's time. If somebody comes in and is like, "Hey, I want to be a CSR and my current position is paying me $150,000 a year and I'm perfectly happy," we're going to stop there. That's not a thing.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: From there, once I do that, our agency is divided into two teams. We have a service team and a sales team. Depending on where I'm trying to put them, the remaining interviews are done group interviews with the entire team. After they interview, we'll talk amongst ourselves and say, "Okay, what do you think?" If I have one person that says no, they're done. It's as simple as that. That's a cultural thing to make sure, but it also helps prevent somebody curating answers because they pick up on things that I didn't notice. I'm like, "Oh yeah, this person's great." And they're like, "Hang on, CJ, wait a minute. What about these three things that they said?" I'm like, "Oh, okay. I didn't hear it the same way you heard it."
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I do something similar with that, except I use a group of at least three people on the leadership team that are not me. We do our processes. I have a woman in my office, her name is Sarah. She's tremendous at the screening. She does kind of a first pass, weeds out the crazies. She takes the list of people who've come through there, say it's three individuals out of maybe 40 resumes, prays it down to three, sends those three over to me. Then I do the second layer crazy test. Do I think they're a cultural fit? Try to find some posers, try to find people who I think won't work. We just have a certain way here. I've seen enough. We're at 22, 23 people now. I've seen the people that come in and do well and the people that don't. There's definite cultural questions that I ask.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Most of it is, and it's the same way with selling. I have this whole thing I say to my team. Ask them how you can help and then shut the fuck up and just let them talk. They'll talk themselves either onto the top of the mountain or right down into a hole. The longer you can be quiet and let them talk, the better. But we talk too much as insurance agents. We don't listen enough. We're always trying to make sure that we have these four points we want to make. Those four points are great that you want to make to the customer, but they don't care about those four points. You wasted your time.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: That's like, we could talk about the digital sales process another time, but I have very strong feelings on how that should be done, which mirrors what you just said.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Once they get past that first interview, second interview, then we do this group interview where three leaders, it doesn't have to be even one of the leaders of that team, but three people from the leadership team will then do internally what they call a Spanish Inquisition style interview. They'll just pepper the shit out of this person with different questions and see if they can handle it, how they respond. From there, we usually make a decision. So it's a three interview process for us most of the time.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: I got you. Do you, in that peppering thing, I think a spot that insurance agents kind of miss on during that process is you should have some stuff built into that to test how good they are with the computer. Make them send you some stuff digitally. Make sure they're having to go on your website, upload a doc, some different things like that. Also, when we used to hire, and again, this was back when I was writing the book of how to hire incorrectly, we didn't really ever talk to them about insurance. I can talk to them about them and how they do things. But I find a lot of value in being like, "All right, sales team or service team, write down the last 10 questions you were asked and ask them. Let's see how they respond to that." I feel like a lot of agents don't do that in interviews, and that can shed a lot of light on their thought process.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: You're 100% right. One of the places where I definitely, and I'm with you, I've made this mistake. We've only recently started doing getting them to walk through real examples of stuff. With the sales team, I tend to be better at hiring. I shouldn't even say better. Any value that I can add to the process in the sales process and the service side, I can't add value to that. But that definitely uncovers some stuff. We've hired people with eight years, 10 years as a CSR. What you're saying is you're trusting, and we know how poor most of our brothers and sisters are at training in this industry. Yet we're trusting based on nine years of experience that some other agent has trained them properly. It's just not the case. It's almost never the case.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: That's probably the scarier part for me. Especially if you want to work at speed. I think this is a defining difference. If you are a plodding along agency, a lifestyle agency who's looking to put enough accounts on to stay even for the year, and that's kind of how you're operating, which is probably most, not many of the agents that will listen to this podcast, but it's okay for your people to kind of work that way, right?
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: They can just kind of fumble through it and get it done and everything's fine. But as soon as you want to turn the volume up, those people get exposed so badly. And then they become such an anchor to the rest of the team that it's blaring, glaringly obvious, almost immediately.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Absolutely. Yeah, I've seen that multiple times. So yeah, I just think agents have to think through that. And maybe I'm wrong here, but I feel like when I look at somebody's resume and the first thing they're doing is touting their experience... Not all experience is equal, right? We're an independent agency. So if you come to me and say, "Hey, I was with Allstate for 20 years," cool, but that's not the same as being in an independent agency. The things you encounter are different, the way you have to think is different, the amount of information you just have to know is different. So knowing that all that experience isn't critical... I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. I almost feel like there's a sweet spot. I don't want them to have no experience—I want them to be licensed, I don't want to have to teach them what a COI is. But I also feel like there's a spot where there's too much experience, where they're set in their ways and not able to change. You've got to teeter on where that person fits on that scale. What are you seeing?
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: Yeah. So we have tried brand new, unlicensed. We are not set up from a training perspective to do that.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: That's right.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: I don't have time to train them like that. That was an epic fail. So I'd say our sweet spot is three to seven years of experience. I won't say captive or independent has impacted that too much. We have had people who've come from captives and been very successful. So I have nothing against it. We see it both ways. I'm not saying it can't happen, just proceed with caution and make sure you've got a good base.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Well, I think it all depends on what you're hiring them for too. In our select process where it's all inbound—they're just taking phone calls, solving problems, transactional, flying through—I would say the people who came from captives have picked that process up much quicker. Whereas the ambiguity and creative problem solving of finding leads, going out and being a hunter, tends to be something that captives don't pick up as quickly. Not that they can't, but they don't because of the way they're trained. So we take that into account. I'd say if you've been at a traditional independent agent for less than five years, you're probably terrible. You're probably really, really bad because there's no training.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: They're awful. I think I agree with that. Yep.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: There's no pressure on them to be successful other than some old man occasionally stumbling over to their desk and telling them to work harder. And it's brutal. You're describing one of my employees right now.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: Did you talk to them before?
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah. It's just funny. You have to deal with that. They come in and I'm like—I've had a couple of these guys come in—and you're just like, "What were you doing at that agency? What could you possibly have been doing?" I've seen commission results and all this. They don't get trained. They get thrown out to the wolves. I don't know how they're paid. It boggles my mind. So we're looking for three to seven years if that's a sweet spot. Younger in spirit—doesn't necessarily have to be age, we've had all different ages come in—but you cannot have the "I've figured this out" mentality. What I'm looking for are the people who *haven't* figured it out. If you have it figured out, I do not want to talk to you. I don't want anything to do with you. Because nobody has it figured out. And the fact that you think you haven't figured it out is because our whole culture is based around trial and error. We're test, experiment, test, experiment, test, experiment. You have to come in here knowing that things are going to change and you need to be able to adapt. Because we don't know. My poor team has to do it right. We pivot quickly.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: Too well. That's the thing. How do you know? That's why when I see these people up on stage, or I hear these middle-level carrier people coming in telling us about the... I'm just like, you have no idea. You haven't sold insurance. You haven't done a hundred tests to figure out if what you're saying is true. McKinsey told you that. And McKinsey doesn't have a shit, because none of those people have ever sold an insurance policy. So I don't care. I can't hear that. If you haven't... I did this solo podcast a few months ago where I talked about surrounding myself with people who have a limp. People who've had the crap beat out of them. If you have... you can smell it on somebody when they haven't tried a hundred different things and know 98 of them that don't work. You can smell it on them when they start talking about the business. That's really what I'm searching for in my part of the interview process: are we being bullshitted? If we're not, it still doesn't mean they're a good fit, but it gets them to the next phase. But if I smell that you're bullshitting on what you've actually done and your actual experience and your beliefs on the business, take a hike.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: Absolutely. Sounds like we line up on the hiring process.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: It's funny too. You talked about traditional agents... how do they even afford to pay people what they pay? I think a lot of agency owners don't actually know what somebody costs them. They don't have the numbers. And they view their employees as numbers too. When you said you had somebody yelling at their desk once a week telling them to sell more, that was the advice... I have a team member now that was in an agency like that. She got no training. They handed her a phone book and told her to call people. The way she was trained to sell was to drop the agency owner's name. That was it. So when she came here, we actually had to teach her how to sell. But it's just funny. Those agencies are out there. It's kind of like what David Crother says—I know you dropped his name earlier. He has one of my favorite quotes: "The insurance industry is full of C players."
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: And I think that is such a hopeful thing for us. Because I'm like, all right, that's good news. That means most of my competition is not doing the things we're doing, which is going to give us an edge.
--:-- [Ryan Hanley interjects with a brief ad break for the show, asking listeners to subscribe, share, comment, and leave reviews.]
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Dude, they're D and F players in any other industry. They're C players in this industry. So if you can even be a B in insurance, which is like a C in any other industry, you're killing the game. That's the story of my career. When I started doing all the marketing stuff, all the Facebook marketing and digital shit at the Murray Group, people would be like, "Where do you get these ideas?" And I'm like, "I literally look at what one industry over was doing 10 years ago, and I do that in here." And people are like, "This is revolutionary." And I'm like, "I'm literally just stealing from other places. This is not original thought." And you said there are agencies out there like that, bro. That's the norm. There are 37,000 independent insurance agencies. The problem you see on Twitter, on Facebook—"Oh, there's only the same guests on these podcasts"—which is true. It's because there's nobody doing cool shit. There's only a couple hundred people doing really cool shit. It's not like there's 10,000 people innovating in this industry. There are probably three to 500 total agencies doing innovative, forward-leaning stuff. And we basically know them all. It's why you see the same people at conferences, the same speakers on podcasts. It's because... I realized you're a guy like me who's thinking forward. Even if you do a little different, we connect. And then you introduce me, and all of a sudden we just run out of people like this. It wasn't intentional. It'll be like, "Hey, we don't..."
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: No, I totally get you. You know what's funny? Going back—I'm a podcast junkie. Another fun fact about me. My wife and I have a farm, right at 12 acres, that we actually finish cut mow. So dude, I mow grass a lot. Podcasts constantly. For years and years. I remember the first podcast I ever remember listening to of yours. I don't know what year it was, but you were articulating a strategy that had helped you at the Murray Group. You had just started blogging about questions that people asked you. Do you remember that? You had one where New York State changed the law, and all of a sudden it became the number one hit. "What is New York State's short-term disability?" Yeah, there you go. And boom, now you're in. There are agencies that don't understand, especially now with ChatGPT and all these things, you don't even have to be good at writing. There are ways to create content like that at scale without having a full-time marketing team. I feel like that's such an opportunity for people. Going back, I don't know how many years ago that was, but it feels like 2013, 2014.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I'm gonna tell you something crazy. Not crazy—it'll sound crazy to some people listening. Last night at 10 o'clock, I walked over to my desk. I poured myself two or three fingers of Japanese whiskey—which I know is blasphemous, but I kind of love it. It's the Chinese whiskey that's a problem.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stay with the Chinese whiskey.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah. But I then turned on ChatGPT and in 45 minutes created five new blog posts for roguerisk.com while I drank my whiskey. By 11 o'clock, I was in bed and had five new blog posts ready to go. One of which was published today.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: It's crazy too because people don't understand that. I think people get blogging specifically... You've obviously done this way longer than I have on the blog. Our agency tinkered with it for years, but it was never consistent until maybe a couple of years ago. But it's amazing. If you're just answering the question—kind of like what you said, this was a question somebody asked, here's our response in blog format—you never know what's going to hit. You had one that hit. Our agency has one where all of a sudden, one day, I started getting all these people calling about tractor insurance. I was like, "What?" Turns out we became the number three hit on Google for "How do I insure my tractor?" Because we had a blog post about it. It's amazing how that doesn't take all that much time, especially with ChatGPT or even before that, Jasper and all kinds of AI-assisted writing programs. You can take that and it takes you no time. And that's like a salesperson that's going to work for you forever as long as you have your site.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I bought... because I steal. I think people think I'm lying. I steal everything. Honestly, I'll be doing a keynote and someone will chuckle when I tell them I steal everything. I'm like, "No, guys, you're missing the point. The point is not to be original. I'm not Pablo Picasso. I'm not Walt Whitman. I want people to buy insurance from Rogue Risk. That's what I want." If a computer helps me create educational content that is well done and accurate and drives people to our site, I'm willing to do that. So I bought this thing. It was ChatGPT for prompts. I paid the $20 for ChatGPT-4, which is bananas. It's absolutely bananas.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: I have that one as well. It is bananas. Yes, absolutely.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: There are all these resources you can pay for—$35, I think I paid $50 for one, $30 for that. Because again, I'm testing them. They're just prompts you can use in ChatGPT. They're like Mad Lib prompts. One will be... I'll give you an example. I just published an article yesterday. The entire article, every word except for the formatting and the linking, was written by ChatGPT. It's 1500 words. The title ChatGPT wrote: "Navigating the World of Insurance for Entrepreneurs: Five Unique Perspectives." It's a great article. I created the graphic using Jasper AI art. I put the title in and said, "Create the perfect image to go with this title," and Jasper AI created a piece of art. This blog post came off a simple prompt that I learned from this thing. Their example was "productivity for entrepreneurs." So I put "topic: insurance for entrepreneurs space." And then the prompt that this tool gives you: "For the above topic, write multiple perspectives from a group with different viewpoints, for each perspective in their own voice, using the phrases and peers they would use." So you're giving ChatGPT-4 this prompt and it can write the whole post. You just watch it. I'm reading it going, "That's good." Sometimes it can be a little dry, but you can actually ask it to use a casual voice or a business casual voice or a playful voice, and it will literally inject words.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: Change the perspective. Yeah, it's crazy. I'm gonna tell you a really crazy trick with ChatGPT. One of the negatives people say is that sometimes Google says AI content doesn't rank as well as human-written content. There's that argument. As ChatGPT becomes even more popular, it's going to become a thing. So I decided to test that. I took the content and ran it through an AI checker. Of course it comes back, "This is 80% AI written" or "100% AI written." But at the same time, I had it on a Google Doc. I use Grammarly to correct my punctuation and stuff, because I'm from Tennessee—English is not our thing. It had 25 suggestions on the article it wrote. So I went through and changed all the things it asked me to change. Ran it back through the AI detector, and it came back 100% human generated.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: I didn't do it. All I did was do the corrections that Grammarly wanted me to make. It didn't change the article. The article was still what it was.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Just cleans it up.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: That's wild. There's no... Anyway, fun little tip. But the ability for us to generate content at scale has never been easier. Agents just have to do it. It doesn't have to be blog posts. It could be a Facebook post, LinkedIn. You can write long-form content on LinkedIn—LinkedIn loves that stuff. Dude, I did the other day... I asked, using these prompts—again, because I'm not original or creative, I just steal—I'm working through all these prompts, and one of them was "Write a poem about insurance." So I post this poem. I've done something similar before. I post this poem on LinkedIn. I got yelled at by my team because I wrote in the comments that the poem was from ChatGPT. Let me read you this fucking poem. This poem is unbelievable. We didn't know we were going to get literature on this call today. I'm really excited. Here's the thing: 4,000 impressions, eight comments, three reposts, and 29 likes. It took me 30 seconds. I literally put "Write a poem about insurance." It wrote this poem. I copied it, put it on LinkedIn, and hit publish. 4,000 impressions. This is like sex to the LinkedIn algorithm. And it's going to be there forever because LinkedIn lets it run for a long time.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yes. So, okay. So guys, this poem—I would love if you attribute this poem to me, but it was not written by me.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: "In the realm of uncertainty..."
--:-- Ryan Hanley: See, my team was like, "No one will know the difference." I was like, "Unless someone asks me to write poetry on the spot and they realize..." While you're on stage somewhere: "Hey, we need you to write a haiku right now about..."
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: "What's a haiku? No."
--:-- Ryan Hanley: "Uh, so okay. In the realm of uncertainty and chance, we seek protection, a safety dance. A guardian in the shadows cast, insurance stands steadfast, holding fast. A night of policy, a shield of care, defending us from loss and despair. It binds our lives with a solemn vow, in the face of risk we need not bow. From home to hearth, from life to health, a keeper of our precious wealth. Insurance weaves a safety net, a guardian to guard against life's threat. Through storm and fire, though tempest rage, the written word on a parchment page. A policy of hope, a binding deal, to mend our hearts, to help us heal. In sickness and in times of strife, a guardian angel in our life. Insurance lends a helping hand, to lift us up, to help us stand. The premium paid, a price so small, for peace of mind, a priceless call. For in this world of chaos and creed, insurance stands by, a friend indeed. So let us raise our voice in praise, to celebrate the shield that stays. A tribute to the force that mends, insurance our protector, our lifelong friend."
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: It crushed that. That was good.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Sometimes it'll spit out stuff that's... The poetry thing is interesting. You can do... I've done this a couple of times. One of the businesses I'm involved with is called The Insurance Content Project. We make scaled-up content for insurance agents—mostly memes. But one of the posts in there, we were playing around with ChatGPT. It was Edgar Allan Poe's birthday or something. I was like, "I wonder what an insurance poem written by Edgar Allan Poe would sound like." So we went into ChatGPT: "Write a poem about insurance, but do it from the perspective of Edgar Allan Poe, to the cadence of his poem 'The Raven.'" The same kind of "Once upon a midnight..." It did the whole thing. It's so wild what the capabilities are. I don't know if you have OpenAI's API, but once you have API access, you can do some really cool stuff. What I have right now—my team uses Slack.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: Do you guys use anything like that?
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, we use Slack.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: So we have a Slack channel we call "Blog Posts." Anytime my team gets asked a question—this is stealing from your idea you were talking about—they go in and plug it into this channel. They just ask the question: "Is my red car more expensive to insure than my pink car?" Whatever the question. It writes a blog post for them immediately. We're using ChatGPT's API, so literally it posts in Slack, that triggers it, goes out, generates, sends it back. The amount of content... my marketing person is like, "I don't even know what to do with all this." We have more than we'd ever need. It's worked really well. That way I'm not having to be like, "Oh, what do we post about today?" It's storytelling: what question did somebody ask me yesterday? And there you go.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Dude, it's crazy. I asked it the other day, "What are 10 unconventional ways an insurance agency can grow their YouTube channel?" Some of them were kind of whatever. But then a couple of them were like, "Find this type of channel," and it was something I hadn't thought of. There were two or three ideas that were completely off the wall—not off the wall, but things I hadn't thought about that I was like, "Oh shit, we could do that." Our YouTube channel is probably our number one traffic source. We did 165,000 views in the last 365 days. So starting to do cross promotions, getting into shorts... I said, "Give me 17 unconventional." I love using odd numbers. I like "unconventional" because it gets it thinking outside of stuff it's just pulling from other places. When you start to learn how the prompts work and how the language stuff works, it is really wild. I've been testing TikTok—I know it's probably going to end up getting banned maybe, but I've been testing it.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: I've seen you on there.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah. So I'm just testing different stuff. I certainly don't have it figured out. But I was like, "Give me 17 unconventional TikTok video ideas for an insurance agency." And then all of a sudden you get bing, bing, bing: do this, go here, do this thing. Even if you don't want it to actually create for you, as an inspirational prompt or as an idea storming tool...
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: Yes. Or an outline generator.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Dude, if you wanted to get super gnarly, you could have it creating fake reviews for you. You could have it doing all kinds of crazy shit. Did you see my post about using it with Google reviews? I don't know if you saw that on Twitter.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: No, I didn't.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: So somebody posted a Google review. One thing I'm terrible about—our agency does a pretty good job of getting Google reviews. We'll get four or five a week. I'm terrible at replying to them. I want to reply, but I forget. Then it gets to a point where I've got 25 in the hopper, and I'm like, "I don't want to reply to them." So what we did was set up a Zap. When we get a new Google review, it takes that Google review, sends it as a prompt to ChatGPT, and says, "Write a response in a business casual voice responding to a positive review of my insurance agency that said this." It generates a very good response. Anybody on Poor Insurance, just go look—you can see them out there. It waits 10 minutes and responds back to the person. It's amazing how authentic it is. It pulls stuff from what they said and includes it. Very cool. You can get really granular with it. There's a lot of different things.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: I was watching TikTok the other day and saw this guy pop up talking about Agent GPT. Now there are all these... That one is super wild. I'm familiar with that one too. I'm starting to play around with Agent GPT. This is when Skynet starts to enter your mind. Because now you're literally telling this thing to go out into other systems, do tasks, run multi-variant tasks off of different responses, different whatever. Layering these functions and these agents on top of each other... You're like, "Holy shit." You could rapidly see a day where you're using these tools. Say the average CSR in personal lines can handle what, two and a half, three million in premium a piece? Is that fair-ish?
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: Could you get that to five million? Could you get it to ten million? One CSR for ten million in premium?
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: I mean, this is what I see these things getting to. When a request comes in, it can just hit a series of AI agents that pass it through all these filters and come back with this very human experience. And really, you just have a CSR sitting there for anything that falls out of those processes—anything that's so outside the box that it can't be automated or requires creativity or problem solving at a level the AI can't handle. The CSR is almost more of a babysitter than necessarily taking those frontline calls, because these systems are so freaking good. It's crazy.
--:-- Taking that a step further, I've been tinkering with this. One of the downfalls to ChatGPT at the current moment is that it's hard to give it information at scale. To give it a document, for instance, the way you have to piece it up is really weird. But they're working on it so you can feed it a document. I've been playing with that on the chatbots I do. With our chatbots, let's say I've got a Progressive homeowners policy. I can upload that into ChatGPT piece by piece. We've been tinkering with it, but once you have the whole doc, you'll be able to upload the whole thing and literally ask it coverage questions against the policy.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, and that's when it starts getting...
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: And so far, what I've seen is it's scary accurate. It not only answers the question—"Yeah, it's covered," "No, it's not covered"—but it also explains where in the policy why it is or isn't covered. And that to me is like... once you get to there, you can do the same thing with underwriting guidelines. Internally within your agency, like, "Hey, will Progressive write a mobile home in the state of Tennessee?" "No, here's the..." You can start building out almost like a query library for your team.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Dude, so obviously we both think in terms of content and stuff. Those stupid green screen videos that Gary Vaynerchuk does—I've been game planning. I want to do green screen videos and put them up as reels on different platforms, but with policy forms behind me. I was literally thinking last night, because one of the things I've been doing is taking our old blog posts, copy and pasting them into ChatGPT, and then asking, "Hey, can you run an SEO analysis and give me the top seven suggestions for ways to improve the SEO of this blog post?" And it will literally go, "Your headline doesn't match your meta description, it's a little shorter, you don't have any..." It will literally do all that. It's fucking nuts.
--:-- So then I was like, why couldn't we start breaking down policies? I haven't done full policies, but I've taken portions—sections of policies—and copy and pasted them in and asked questions. And you're right. I'll tell you right now, ChatGPT is better at reading policy forms than 99% of the people listening to this podcast. And that's only going to get better. That's the part that's scary. This is version four, you know?
--:-- It's so cool. But it's one of those things where I've seen it already in the groups. I don't know if you've seen this—"Oh, they're trying to replace us agents." I feel like every time something new comes out, everybody goes there. "The internet people buying insurance, they're trying to replace it." I don't go there. I see that it replaces bad agents. People that aren't... there are situations that do that. But this technology is in its infancy. Now's the time to lean into it and be on the cutting edge instead of trying to catch up later.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: See, that's the beauty of our industry. There are so many lethargic people who are making just enough money that they're never going to actually do any of the shit we're talking about here. People probably say the same thing to you, right? When I share that at 10 p.m. I came to my desk on Tuesday last night, poured myself a glass, and just created blog posts out of ChatGPT. People are like, "Ah, that's crazy." I'm like, "I don't have time." And like, you have time. These tools make it so much easier.
--:-- So instead of one blog post a week, I want to get to where I'm putting out two, three, four, five. Why not put five blog posts out a week? Why not have ChatGPT take one of those blog posts and turn it into six tweets and 17 LinkedIn updates? And then use Agent GPT to take those updates, chop them up, and post them out on your different channels. This is... I think about it. People like you, hopefully like us, and probably some of the others we know—I've stopped trying to convince people. There's just this gap that is widening and widening. You're getting so far out ahead of people. Sometimes it's hard to relate.
--:-- I used to feel like I could relate a decade ago. But now when I'm up on stage, people are like, "Oh, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to write about." I'm like, "You are talking to the wrong guy." At this point in my career, I'm past explaining how to do that. There are other people that'll pay you—you can pay $99 a month or whatever—they'll tell you how to do that. I'm past that point. If you don't know that this is the shit you should be doing, I don't know what... I can't help you.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, it just comes down to some people don't have the drive. I talk with my team all the time. We have this phrase: "Are you busy? Or are you inefficient?" That's what I always ask them. Because the answer is always "I'm too busy," no matter what it is. And then I'm looking and I'm like, "Yeah, but every time I post something on Twitter, you were tweeting back at me these long, long rants. How long does that take? How much of your time are you sucking there doing something that's unproductive?"
--:-- So figuring out—these tools are made to help us be more efficient. We can generate content. Go back 10 years ago, how long would it have taken you to write five fully 1500-word blog posts? It'd take hours. Now you can do it in minutes. And that to me is just such an opportunity. People listening to this, I think would agree that your competitors aren't going to do it. They're not too busy. [Air quotes] They're too busy.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: So I think that if anyone takes anything away from this conversation—and we need to have another one, because I feel like we just scratched the surface of all the things we're doing—there's just so much opportunity to get ahead. You don't have to do all the things. Pick a thing. If you're into commercial, pick LinkedIn. If you're into personal, figure out Instagram reels. Just create and do all the different things and try a bunch of stuff. But there are tools out there like these GPTs, these AI tools.
--:-- There's one I found the other day that I was looking at that could create—off of about 10 minutes worth of work—you could get 500 different ad variations, ad creatives that are all AI generated based on your industry and your market. You can put your client list in there and it looks at the clients and comes up with what they like. There's ones for video, ones for putting captions on video. All these tools are out there and they're like five bucks a month. For $25 a month in tool spend, you could have an entire professional suite of tools to make anything you could potentially want to make. And it's right at your fingertips.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Have you played with the video content generating—the AI where it's generating video as well?
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: I have not. I've looked at a bunch of them. It's wild. It's not there yet. It's close, but not quite there yet. I've tinkered with this to where you have somebody post a blog post—like I was talking about earlier, they posted a question in our channel. It not only generated the blog post, but it takes the script of what it said, turns it into an AI video with an AI avatar reading the video, reading the script. And then you can literally send it out wherever you want, all automated. While the AI is not there yet—there's something with their teeth, I don't know what, their teeth look weird—but once they get that nailed down, man, that becomes really crazy because you can even turn yourself into the avatar.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Yeah, I was looking at an app that I haven't dug into yet just because I can tell it's a rabbit hole. But basically what you do is you record a video once. They have you read this script, they get your voice, and then all you do... So you have a video and it might be like, "Hey, CJ. Ryan Hanley here, man. So happy that you joined Rogue Risk. We may not have talked—you probably talked to one of my team members—but as a CEO, I just want to let you know that I'm committed to making sure..." You do this whole spiel, 45 seconds, whatever it is. And then for the next person, even through a Zapier link, it could be Steve. And now I'm saying "Steve" and I'm saying your business name. You can pick multiple merge tags where it's taking a name—I think up to three different variables. I've seen one called Be Human. I'm sure there's multiple.
--:-- I'm looking at it going, "Oh my God, you could literally at scale send a personalized video out to every person and no one would freaking know the difference." It's wild, man. The AI video stuff, I feel like is not quite there yet, but it's so close that give it just a little bit more time and it's going to be there.
--:-- If I were starting today and could get—let's say I could start with like a hundred grand, because you're doing this AI shit, you need some development costs—I would love to piece together a one-person AI-based agency that just goes as far as you can possibly go just using AI tools. One person, AI tools. You could use carrier sales centers to place the business. You could have everything feel auto-returned, auto-responded. You could basically make it feel like you had a 10, 15-person agency or bigger. If you pieced all these AI tools together and knew how to do it, I mean, you couldn't do it out of one of our current agency management systems because the industry is purposely holding us back in an effort to reap max benefit from us.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: What? No, they can never do that. What do you mean? They're such thoughtful technologists.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: But like that to me is such an intriguing thing. ChatGPT-4 hooked into an Agent GPT with a video and audio and an auto poster. And then you would have just a simple routing system through Agent GPT to get the leads to either the Travelers sales center or the Hanover sales center, wherever you thought it was appropriate. And then you just freaking put them in the top, using auto-generated ads and API or AI-driven Google ad campaigns and Facebook ad campaigns that just plow people into a form that routes them, that strategically sends them right to these carrier sales centers. And you literally would not have to hire a single person. If you can figure out carrier sales center business on a commercial line side, that's the holy grail because they take almost nothing for what you get back.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: So basically what he's saying is if there's anybody listening out there that's got a hundred grand that wants to give it to me and Ryan, we're gonna—
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: We're gonna knock it out. I honestly believe that that will be the look and feel of the agent of the future. And I know all the purists out there are like, "No, it's about the relationship." Yes, except there is an enormous part of the population that doesn't want that relationship. That's where people miss it—they think everyone wants to buy like they like to buy. The trick is to understand there are different types of buyers, and you have to be able to approach your agency to appeal to all those different types of buying styles. The more of them that you can hit effectively, the bigger you're going to grow.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: I want to be respectful of your time, but just to give you an example of this. I go see a counselor every other week. I want to see my counselor in person. My financial advisor—if I never saw that human ever, and he's a good guy, I like him, he does a good job for me—I never want to see him in person. Why do I ever need to see him in person? So there's a scenario where one service provider, I really want to spend... I wouldn't want to do a Zoom call with my counselor. It just wouldn't be the same to me. I like breathing the same air as that person. But my financial advisor, I can do a phone call or a Zoom call or a text. I don't need to see that person in person ever.
--:-- I think what we forget—because we want our ego as independent agents, because this is the largest ego-driven industry that exists, to your point, "Hey, just drop my name," that's our sales strategy—I think what we forget is that I may love a local in-person experience for one service and then for another service, my buying behavior, my personality, whatever, I don't want that. We just assume that if you're local or locally oriented, you want to do local business with every single service provider you have. That's just not the way humans operate.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: I think it's even different between lines. Home and auto, I might not ever want to talk to somebody. But if I want to talk about life insurance, I'm starting to get my family involved—I want to sit down. It can change per line of business. So you're absolutely right.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Dude, and here's the other thing too, for all those going, "You need to see people in person in commercial." We just wrote a $650,000 commercial lines account that came in online that we never saw in person. You want to know how? We just had the carrier send their inspection and loss adjuster out first to do the in-person review. So it still got seen. We didn't have to see them. We've never met the person in person. We probably will never meet this person in person. Yet that's a fairly large account that I think everyone listening would be quote-unquote impressed by.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: They would love to write that.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Absolutely. The days of you having to breathe the same air as the people you do business with are over. It doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't. It just means that if you are operating under the assumption that your clients don't want that or only want the in-person, I think you're missing a mark.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: 100%. Yeah.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Dude, this has been awesome. We have to come back because I feel like we scratched the surface. We didn't even get into all the other things that you do. But this is great.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: That's cool, man. Absolutely. Had fun.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Awesome. And appreciate you. Where can people connect more with you? Obviously, great Twitter follow. I highly recommend all the Twitter users follow CJ. Where else, though?
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: Twitter and Facebook are my platforms.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Gotcha.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: I'm the only CJ Hutsenpiller on Facebook until the Russian spy bots get me. So if you just search me, you'll find me.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Awesome. Dude, such a pleasure. I wish you nothing but the best. And I hope we get to connect again soon.
--:-- CJ Hutsenpiller: All right, bro. See you later. Have a great day.
--:-- Ryan Hanley: Bye, buddy. Cheers.
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