The Banking Secret Billionaires Don't Want You to Know | Chris Naugle

Host: All you're doing, folks, is changing one thing. That is it, and adding one step. So if you want to change your finances in the future, if I could sit there and tell you that you can get all the money back for every car you ever buy, drive, and own, okay? If I can tell you you can get out of debt in a fraction of the time without working harder, longer, or taking on any risk, is that important? If I could tell you that you could never pay interest to the banks ever again, and you could keep all that money, so just add up all your payments you make on credit cards, on car loans, on any loans you have. Imagine writing those checks that you write to their bank. Imagine writing them to yourself. What would your life look like? So if all of those things are things you would like, okay, because every one of those is a compelling thing that you would say absolutely, if I told you it took one change and one step to do that, every one of you would be interested.

So this whole podcast game is so funny, isn't it though? You know, oh my gosh. So I started in 2011. My first podcast I heard, I don't know if you remember this name, but a guy by the name of Chris Brogan, like marketing dude from way back in like the early blogging days, like 2007 to 2010. And at that time, I was working for my ex-wife's family's insurance agency and I sucked at selling. Like the worst salesman ever at the time. So I had to find a way to get business in because I hated cold calling. So I turned to content marketing. Okay. So I find this guy and he starts talking about podcasting. And I was like, well, talking into a microphone sounds a hell of a lot more fun than writing all the time. So I'll try this. And dude, I grew my show back then to number 11 in the world. Now at the time, just to be clear, that was like around 52,000 downloads a month. So I have a screenshot from 2014, I did like 52,000. Doesn't really matter, but Ed Milet is two ahead of me and Gary Vaynerchuk is two behind me for the world for Apple at that time, which is wild, right? So that happens. I'm having a great time interviewing all these amazing people and then I get this job offer to become the CEO of a tech company. The insurance industry is like my native industry and it's more money. I'm a poor kid from the country in the north, right? So like, it's more money than I could have ever imagined at the time. And I say, sure. And they say, you know, you can bring the podcast. All good. Three months in, I get the call into the office. Hey, man, you know, this podcast thing, like, we know we told you you could do it. But you know, some people are wondering if it's a distraction. I'm like, well, is my work not good? And they're like, no, no, no, it's not that. But like, we're getting calls. And I'm like, so they forced me to. And I look back and I'm like, the momentum you lost. My god, the momentum. So it's just an interesting game.

But well, dude, I'm super excited to have you on the show. Yeah. Like, I guess give people the 10 cent tour. I don't normally like doing the backstory first, but I really am interested. You have a kind of unique and very dynamic story, and there's a lot of places I want to go. So I'm interested in how you tell your version, and then we'll go from there.

Guest: Yeah, I'm going to keep it super short. So I'm going to leave a lot out because it's long, but you know, I started kind of like you. I'm up in the North. I'm in Buffalo, New York, always been here. I grew up in a lower middle-class family with one dream as a young kid. I wanted to be a pro snowboarder. I had watched a video, seen magazines. That was my aspiration. I went from skateboarding, introduced to snowboarding in my garage by my best friend. And I'm like, I want to be a pro snowboarder. And that's where it all began. Like I've always been kind of a dreamer. You know, even as a young kid, I just never really had boundaries in terms of what I thought was possible. So I would just dream these things. But every single person I would tell my goal to would say, no, you can't do that. You live in Buffalo. Like you'd have to move. And you had all these people knocking your dreams down because they want you to conform to their way of thinking, their failed dreams is what I always call it. And I almost never made it to that point, but there was a pivotal event that happened. And I say this because it's very important for everybody listening to this. There was one person that showed me that it was possible. His name was Blair Russ, and he was a pro Burton rider from Buffalo. He moved to California but came back to Buffalo when I was at this point where I wanted to be a pro but didn't know the path. I heard he was going to be riding and filming at this local resort, so I made sure I was there. I took off school and I'm riding following these guys through the park, trying to stay far enough behind because I was nervous. You know, I was just a young kid nervous that I'm going to get in their way of filming. And Blair stops me and he says, hey, you know, I've seen you riding. Like, do you want to ride with us? It was like the greatest day ever. But one thing that happened that very day is it made me understand that it was possible. Because if Blair and this guy Shane had done it and they came from Buffalo, then I could do it too. And that's what catapulted me. And the story is kind of unique from there on out.

You know, I did become a pro snowboarder, but in that journey to be a pro snowboarder, I had to learn something that I guess I never really realized I learned at an early age: the freedom of time. I needed to do something that gave me the freedom of time to chase my dream so I wasn't inhibited because I had a job, a J-O-B, trading time for hours or time for money. So I created my own company at 16 years old called Fat Clothing Company. I printed shirts with my art teacher, Mr. Mahalski, and I sold them to my friends in school. Then I took that same concept, learned the wholesaling, and I started going on the road, going to snowboard contests, selling my clothing to all the shops. I would leave early so I would get there on time, but I'd stop at all these shops and I would consign or sell my clothing. A pivotal event happened there. I met this one shop owner and they bought my clothes, but he said, hey, do you want a ride? And I said, yeah, of course. And I looked at my watch. I'm like, yeah, crap. They close at five. It's noon. And he's like, and I said, when do you want to go? He says, let's go right now. And I was confused. Like up to this point, I'm like, you got a shop. You're the only one here working. You're open till five, but you want to go right now. Like how? Is someone coming in to cover it? And he says, no. And he says these words. He says, I own the place, so I can close the place. I'm like, no. Like, I know some of you are like, well, yeah, duh. But like, I'm just this young entrepreneur. And I did not yet understand that like, that's what an entrepreneur can do. They call the shots. They don't have a boss. So we went riding. And now all of a sudden, the only thing I can think about is I need my own shop. This is 1992, just to give everybody relevance. November of 94, I shopped Fat Man Board Shops. Obviously, fat clothing became Fat Man Board Shops, opened in the Lockport Mall. And the only way that place opened is I didn't have any money. It didn't come from a wealthy family. And every place I tried getting a loan from, family members and banks said no, except for my mom, who had nothing but the house we lived in. And then she literally put the house up for collateral so that I could get an SBA-backed loan. This is November of 94.

Now I'm going to go really fast. From that point, I lived what most people would only think of as a dream. I was a pro snowboarder, traveling the world, getting paid to do it on someone else's budget while I'm running my own skateboard snowboard shops with my buds. And literally, like, on off-season, I'm running a skateboard shop skating. And then in season I'm traveling while running the shop. It was epic, dude, just purely epic until the day that that whole dream kind of came crashing down. It was when the planes hit the towers and what we all know is 9-11. Well, what most people don't know in today's world, because you have to live through it, was that was a recessionary period too, a long one, a three-year recession. Well, when you're an entrepreneur owning shops through a recession, your business tanks. And it did. It dropped like 30%. And it was so bad that I didn't have the money to carry through. So I needed to get a job. The one thing I had sworn off earlier in my life that I'd never do, I needed a job. So I put my resume out and the only companies that responded back were Wall Street firms. Now I'm a punk snowboard kid that wears a beanie and a hoodie every day. And now I got to go interview at a financial firm where I got to put a black, gray, or navy blue suit on every day. And that was my reality. That was my destiny, right? So I took the job. I was really, really good at it. And it forced one of the most important things. You know, so you're an entrepreneur and you told me your story a little bit about where you went from the podcast, the freedom to now this corporate world. I had to do that. And it was a mind, it destroyed my mind. But it forced something that I think was the greatest thing. I used to work in my store. I want to be clear about that. Most business owners work in their business, and they are the best at what they do in their business, but it's almost like you trap yourself. You create almost a slavery, if you will, because you're a slave to what you created. And I was there. But now I'm working the mornings all the way up till five o'clock at this financial firm doing investment advice and stocks and everything else. So now I can't work in the store. Now I got to work on the store, on the business. And that was that transition. I realized that was what was happening. I was working on the business. My retail stores exploded. I had other people running them. And now I'm working on events. I'm working on skate and snowboard teams and making videos and cool stuff that I would have never done working in the store. So you can see sometimes one door closes and another door opens. And that really sums up everything that's happened in my life.

So I'm doing the shops. I'm on Wall Street. I'm a pro snowboarder. I'm doing all these simultaneously. And then I get this idea because of one of my clients to get into real estate. He was my wealthiest client, but he gave me very little money to invest for him. And I asked him one day, I said, why don't you invest more? And he said, I make too much money in real estate to give you any of that money. I can make more in something that I control. I'm like, okay. So 06, I flip a house. 07, I flip another one. And 08, I buy a dilapidated paint store that I was going to convert and develop into a three unit strip mall where I was going to move my main shop into it. So literally it was brilliant because I'm sick of paying rent. Now my tenants are going to pay the mortgage and I'm going to have rent-free access to this beautiful building. You heard when I said I did that, right? 2008? Yeah, the Great Recession. So second recession literally brought me to my knees, almost bankrupt me. And my girlfriend at the time was living at my house and she paid the bills so that I could continue on. That's the only reason I made it through it. But through 2008, I basically struggled, but I also continued into real estate while doing all those other things. And I built up a rental portfolio, which then I lost and I had to sell every one of them in 14 because banks just suck, let's just be honest. Which put me onto the path that I'm on today of being your own bank because I had a bank literally take away 36 units because of their decision to literally not allow my line of credit to continue because I was at my debt to income ratio. Something they didn't tell me. It's just like that. All of a sudden you got no line of credit, they freeze it. Banks are in control of your money if you don't know that.

So then after that, I was just struggling. I went into flipping houses instead of owning rentals because it was easier. And that flipping led me down the path of private money and borrowing from individuals and learning that, to writing books, to then developing courses and getting everything. But the whole thing brought me to a pivotal moment. I'm a high-rank, high-performing financial advisor, doing extremely well. And I'm in Utah snowboarding. And this guy that I borrowed money from, Mike, who's super wealthy, was there. So I call him up. I said, hey, Mike, I'm in your backyard. I got a deal I'd like to show you. Can we meet? So he says, yeah, meet me at Cheesecake Factory, to which I did. And then all of a sudden at Cheesecake Factory, I ask, I don't know why, I ask him, I said, so Mike, how do you lend all this money? And without flinching, he says, I lend from my private banking system. To which I articulated as a financial advisor, Mike owns a bank. I'm like, oh, you got way more money than I thought. Let's go to your bank. And he says, no, I don't own a bank. I mimicked what banks do. I copied what banks do, and I do it as my own banker. And then I said, all right, well, tell me about it. He tells me all these particulars. Like, I get, I changed where my money went. I get guaranteed interest on my money. I get dividends on my money. It's all growing tax-free in a protected environment. And then when you come to me, Chris, to borrow money, all I do is I take a loan from my private bank, and I lend it to you. And you pay me 15% interest. I take the 15% interest, and I deposit it in my bank, not their bank. And I'm just like, this sounds awesome. But as a financial advisor, everything he's telling me, and I went really fast with that, but everything he's telling me, I'm compartmentalizing. I'm like, all right, guaranteed interest. What could that be, right? And you're from the insurance industry, so I'm not thinking insurance. I'm thinking financial. And then he's like, dividends. I'm like, all right, stocks pay dividends. And then he's like, tax-free. I'm like, Roth. But none of it was jiving because not all of them work together, and what he just explained. So I just asked him, I said, so what is this? And then he tells me, and he says, it's a specially designed whole life, Chris. You should know that. And I felt stupid because I'm like, oh yeah, I should know that. And I do know that, but I didn't know it worked that way. And that's what led me down the path of being your own banker. And I went from being a student. I was a student of that trade. I was using it and used it to get out of debt, used it for real estate to now today being the teacher and having thousands of clients being number one in the infinite banking space. And that's what I do. I mean, I do one thing extremely well, but my whole life has prepared me for that moment. And I'm sorry I went long on that, but that's as fast as I could get through it.

Host: No, I'm glad you did. How do you keep going when you get kicked in the teeth? One, two, three. Like, how do you keep coming back? Because one of the questions I get a lot on this show, because we are two primary topics, although I love going off topic sometimes, are leadership and performance, right? And you get a lot of comments, particularly on founders who are maybe trying, you know, had a startup, failed, had a startup, failed. They have another idea. They have the entrepreneurial spirit. They feel that this is their calling, but they keep getting kicked in the teeth, right? And you get a little gun-shy, and some people get gun-shy, and you start going, well, maybe I'm not fit for this. Maybe I should go get a job. And some do, and then they feel that tension and stress of not being on purpose. But you seemingly have been able to come back again and again. Is that learned? Is it innate? Is there something you can share with us to help the people who maybe have just gotten kicked in the teeth and are worried about coming back again?

Guest: I'd lie to you and to your audience if I said, you know, oh, it was innate or it was easy. Every single time that I was at the bottom, I felt like my world was ending. I felt like I just sometimes I thought maybe I just turn my truck into a tree while driving 60 miles an hour. Listen, those are the thoughts you have when you're at the bottom. I've been there enough times to understand what that feels like. And it's just freaking hard. But here's the one thing. When I think about my life, I think about what prepares you to go through hell and then climb out on the right side. There's no other way to call it other than that's what it feels like. It feels like the entire world turns against you. It feels like every single person is sitting there staring at you saying, see, I told you so. I told you not to do that. I told you not to do that. You know, it's always the people that you love, your family members, your significant other or spouse. It's always them that seemingly seem to be on your side when everything's good, but then all of a sudden when something happens and you're at the bottom, they're there sitting there scolding you that you should have listened to them. And that is always something I've hated.

There's two things I will give credit to in my life. Number one, you're going to laugh, but it's a movie called Rad, 1986. The movie Rad came out. Bro, it's my favorite movie of all time. I'm not even kidding you. Since you understand that, and hopefully some of your audience understands that movie, and if they don't, just watch it. Greatest movie of all time. This guy, Crew Jones. Crew Jones, everybody told him he can't do it. He can't win. He can't get to be who he wants, and he persevered through everything. Through, you know, he went to hell and came out, in other words, and he had one, maybe two people that believed him, and that's it. The movie Rudy, okay, another great one. Rudy had one person, well, he had two, but then the one guy died, his best friend died, and then he had one person that believed in him. The one thing all of you need to understand is when you're in that dark place, all you need is one person to believe in you, and sometimes all you need is yourself, because the only way to truly fail is to quit. I'm just not a quitter. That Crew Jones in the movie, Rad, was not a quitter, and he persevered. Okay, yes, it's a movie, and some of you are like, it's just a stupid movie. To me, it wasn't a movie. To me, it was everything. It was the person I wanted to be. It was the life I wanted to live. That was the pinnacle movie that built Chris Noggle, and Ryan, I'm sure you had a similar thing.

Moving past that, though, I also was introduced to something special, something that most of your audience won't know, but Earl Nightingale. Been around forever, okay? Earl Nightingale, and the one to watch is the strangest secret in the world. And he talks in there about a study that was done by a doctor about the five and the 95, the five percenters, the wealthy and the 95%, everybody else. And he explained so eloquently and simply that the difference is conformity versus creation. The 5% create and never give up and keep persistently and consistently going after something. The 95%, the majority, they conform to somebody else's failed dream, somebody else's failed idea. So right there, because I was introduced to that a long time ago, when I got in these dark places, I've been there so many times. All I remembered is there's no way to fail except for quit. So you just can't quit. And you just got to keep going. And it just gets worse and worse. And you just think, wow, I thought I was at the bottom. And now I'm even going further. But eventually, what you learn at the bottom catapults you back out of it. And you never go there again. But then you learn other things. So I know that's a long answer to your question. But like Rad, the movie, and what I saw and learned in that movie and what I lived after it. In Earl Nightingale, the difference between success and failure is creation. Just keep creating.

Host: So I don't think anyone should ever discount the impact that entertainment or media has on us. Movies, songs, poems, quotes. It all hits us in different ways. It's so funny that you brought that up. So one, I was, I didn't want to interrupt you when you were telling your story before. So my entire family's from South Buffalo. I have like 30 Irish Catholic cousins from Hamburg.

Guest: Oh, hell yeah.

Host: Yeah. You can't hit a driver in South Buffalo without hitting someone that's related to me.

Guest: I did not know that.

Host: Yeah, so I live in Albany now, and the only reason I live in Albany is because my dad used to work for the Buffalo Depot for Amtrak, and he got a promotion, but the promotion was in Albany. So I'm the only member of my family not to be born in South Buffalo. So huge Bills fan. You know, Josh Allen's the truth, the whole deal. I back all the time. I got tons of buddies. I went to school at the University of Rochester. So like Western New York and Buffalo has been a huge part of my life. So we got that in common. And then, and it's funny, I had that in my pocket. And then I heard you say rad and I'm like, who the fuck is this guy? I'm like, we just became best friends.

Guest: A backflip Hulk Hogan, eat your heart out. Oh my God. There's so many good quotes. It's the best. No guys. And if you haven't seen the movie rad, it's phenomenal. It's an hour and 35 minutes. It's super short. And it actually, you want to talk about perseverance. So Bill, oh my gosh, I'm going to forget his name. The guy that plays Crew Jones, his name's Bill something. I'm going to forget it. So the wife in Rocky, Adrian, what's her name? Leah, whatever her name is. So she's in that movie. Okay, guys? So they're talking about perseverance. I know this is a little tangential, but I'm talking about perseverance here. So that movie gets made. And after it gets made and released, after the initial launch cycle, right, whoever owns the rights to the movie has to license it out to be created into DVDs and, well, that would have been VHS at the time and then DVDs, et cetera. Well, she didn't think anyone liked the movie because its initial box office numbers were terrible. Terrible. A complete bomb, right? But there was this subculture of people like you and me and other people who enjoyed that movie that loved it. And it wasn't until about five years ago, maybe six, that you could even find that movie on Amazon or you could only find bootlegged copies. That was the only way you could get a copy and it was through the perseverance of the main character. Man, it's gonna kill me. I don't know his last name and he's probably not listening to this, but I apologize considering how many times I've watched that movie, like literally thousands. He persevered and literally built a groundswell of fans. And there was a, I think it was something like over a hundred thousand people signed this petition that he then delivered to her. And to her credit, I think she just didn't know because the moment she saw it, she released the rights and now we can all watch it. But, you know, it was like 25 years of him trying to get this movie out into the public. Cause this was like his life. I don't think he did anything else after that. He actually became or tried to become a professional BMX rider for a while. What a phenomenal movie, but there's a whole documentary about this.

Host: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really, really cool. I mean, and just to think how groundbreaking that movie was and the things that they were doing and the fact that all the tricks, all of it was done, all of it was real. And most of the guys, the other thing I thought was really cool about that movie, and I know we're way off topic here, like 95% of the guys were real BMXers, were working BMXers that they brought in to ride. And there was only, I think, three or four of the guys were actually actors. And even those guys did a lot of the stunts themselves, not all of them, but a lot of them. So pretty cool, the whole perseverance thing. But you said something that's interesting. You said we're off topic, but we're right on topic.

Guest: Yeah.

Host: Because everything you just said, that perseverance, that 25-year journey, I'm just going to call him Crew Jones just because that's forever his name to me, has never given up on his dream, and it took him 25 years. But like, listen, it's not about how long it takes you to hit your dreams. It's about the fact that you still chase it and you don't listen to anybody else. Because in that movie, Crew Jones's mom, the exact story, she was the one that didn't believe in him. She was the one that said, you can't miss your SATs for this BMX race. And he goes and she scolds him and he begs her and she lets him do it. But like he goes through so much adversity in that movie to get to that one moment where he doesn't even know if he can make it. But he gives it all up. He burns the boats to get to that one moment. And he knows it. I burned the boats. I got to make this. And he pushes deep, deep inside of him to win. And he didn't even win. That was when he just got through qualifiers. And then you think it's all easy, right? He gets in the race and he wins the race. Oh, great. No, just like every other movie. No, everything else happens. That's where the movie gets really interesting because it's not just that he won qualifiers. It's everything else that happens that fights him. Anyway, I'm not going to give the movie away, but he ends up winning at the end. And that was, that was, I watched that movie like you did so many times. I burned the VHS out. Your audience probably didn't even know what a VHS is. But yeah, like that movie shaped me. It shaped me. It made me exactly who I am today. And I've learned this because that is the single moment where I changed. And you're right, it was a freaking movie. Plus the soundtrack is amazing.

Guest: Yeah, the soundtrack is phenomenal. I mean, listen, like your audience probably can't see it, but like this is like a background, but like you know what this is. [Guest holds up a bike] Hell yeah. I brought it back and I got my GT Pro Freestyle Tour up. So guys, you can't hear Chris right now, but he's showing. So you can go over to YouTube channel and check it out if you're just listening on audio. But he's got a Skyway TA from 1985.

Host: Oh my god, I can't believe you. But I freaking everything about that movie. Like for me, so I was six years old when that movie came out, or five years old somewhere in that range. And like I remember me and my buddies, there's like five of us, you know, and I can remember this at that age sitting on the carpet in the living room because that's what you did because the TVs were as big as your refrigerator back then, again for the younger side of our audience, and they weren't flat. And you're watching this thing in non-HD. And like I just remember getting done and I was like, I want to run through a brick wall right now. Like let's go. Like we can do anything. Like it was just, it was such the way they did it was amazing. You know, and it's early 80s TV, but it's just phenomenal. Just phenomenal by today's standards.

Guest: Yeah. Bill Allen is the main character. And not that this is important, but Christy Brinkley looks phenomenal in that movie.

Host: She ever does, yes she does. Sliding. Guys, you got to watch this movie if you haven't seen it. I'm gonna put a link to the like Netflix or Amazon or whatever. You guys can check it out. But the movie's just phenomenal. But it does really fall in line.

So, okay. So all this tremendous success throughout your career, you're coming back multiple times and you find this BYOB, be your own bank, right? Now, I will tell you that when I was looking through all your stuff and making sure that I understand what you do is, you know, try to prepare a little bit. As it's probably obvious, I don't over prepare, but I do try to understand. Even someone who's been an entrepreneur for at least the last decade, second half of my life. I made the, I, you know, this is podcast not about me, but my story is basically like early on, I grew up very poor and I, it was very entrepreneurial early in my life. Like all the things, right. Selling baseball cards. I got part of my story is when I was 10, I used to walk the streets of my town at like 4:30 in the morning and pick recyclables out for their five cent deposit and shit like that. Right. Okay. So then, but I fell for the trap, I fell for the trap of the big company, the safe job, the paycheck, the 401k. That's what you do because that's what my parents pushed me towards. My parents, being a receptionist and essentially a manager slash mechanic on the railroad, in their world, job safety was paramount. You hadn't needed job safety. So I fell for that trap, come out of college, go work for the big companies, and it's just miss after miss after miss after miss, right? Just, and I'm being these jobs for a year, two years, there'd be friction, some regard, I broke power law number one quite often, if that makes any sense to people, if you've read that book, which I highly recommend you do. And I hit this point where I was like, what am I, like, why am I freaking here?

Host: I know it's not to work for one of these big companies because it just keeps not working. So what is it? And that's when I found entrepreneurship. So despite all that, despite being an entrepreneur with exits, with all the different things, I'll be honest with you. I looked at this concept and I said, that sounds scary as hell. So how do we take this idea just as a starting point? And how do we remove that initial scariness of like being your own bank sounds like a lot, right? The way you describe it and the way your materials are and how you coach it, I know it doesn't have to be, but my initial gut was like, whew, that feels like a big thing. So how do we start to remove some of those scary barriers for people?

Guest: Yeah, it's easy. I've done this thousands of times, and we have thousands of clients throughout the nation. So it's evolved. And here's really the easiest way I can explain taking something that most people perceive as being complicated, but it's not. It's just different. It's a mindset shift more than anything, is to go into this. All you're doing, folks, is changing one thing. That is it, and adding one step.

So if you want to change your finances in the future, if I could sit there and tell you that you can get all the money back for every car you ever buy, drive, and own, okay? If I can tell you you can get out of debt in a fraction of the time without working harder, longer, or taking on any risk, is that important? If I could tell you that you could never pay interest to the banks ever again, and you could keep all that money, so just add up all your payments you make on credit cards, on car loans, on any loans you have, imagine writing those checks that you write to their bank. Imagine writing them to yourself. What would your life look like?

So if all of those things are things you would like, okay, because every one of those is a compelling thing that you would say, absolutely. If I told you it took one change and one step to do that, every one of you would be interested. So that right off the bat, I can tell every single person before I get into explaining what it is that all of you want this because you want guarantees on your money. You want to have liquidity and access to your money. You want it all growing tax-free because who the hell wants to pay taxes? You don't want someone being able to sue you and take all your money. And someday, I have a five-year-old daughter. She's everything to me. You want to pass on a legacy. So you want to make sure your family's taken care of if you get hit by a bus, right? So I think we can agree on all those.

So again, back to the change. One change, one step. And here's what it is. The money that you make, all of us are taught, like you, you eloquently explained this. We're all taught how money works from a very young age. And we're taught that to get ahead in life, especially in our generation, because I think we're both Gen X, in our generation, we were taught you go out and you work hard. You work overtime. You climb the ladder. You continue to trade your time, your hours, for dollars.

[Holds up fake money] So I'm holding up money. For anyone listening to this, I'm just holding up some fake money here. This is what we're all working for. But we understand one thing from a young age and some people never learned the difference is the only way to have this is to trade your time for it. That the biggest lie you ever been taught, okay? Because if all you ever did your entire life is trade your time for money and you saved money, you'd never become wealthy. Because you have not yet learned the laws of wealth. You've not yet learned how the wealthy operate. And they operate under a different set of rules.

So let me explain one of the things. This thing I teach, listen, I did not create this, okay? Be your own bank. I might have created and pioneered the name and trademarked the name, I didn't create this. This has been around for hundreds of years. The Rockefellers, the Rothschilds, the Morgans, the Stanleys, they all used this. So I can't take credit for it. And here's what they did. And I'm going to tell it in a story form.

Let's go back to the wealthiest families in history back in the day, the Rockefellers and the Rothschilds. Back then they used banks, but back then they were scared of banks. They had so much money at banks that they worried that if there's a run on the bank and the bank goes down, they lose all their money. So they were seeking a better bank alternative from a financial institution that was stronger. And they all landed the exact same place. And that was the industry you used to work in, the insurance industry, specifically the life insurance industry. Because you go back to the 1800s, 1900s, life insurance, mutually owned life insurance companies were the safest, strongest financial institutions.

Fast forward to 2025, the same thing is exactly true. They are far bigger than most banks, although you won't hear that, but they are. The buildings banks operate out of, those big skyscrapers, guess who owns them? Not the bank, the insurance companies, almost all of them. I was just in Cincinnati with one of the giant insurance companies. Walk around. They were like, yeah, we own that building and that building and that building and that big building, biggest one in the city that we own that and this and this.

Host: A lot of insurance with the company that you're referencing.

Guest: Absolutely. So that's what these wealthy families knew. So the wealthy family said, all right, well, we want to get some of our money in these giant institutions, but you can't walk into a life insurance company and say, "Hey, I got some money. I want to deposit it." They're not a depository. They're not a bank. So how they had to do it is they had to manipulate and create a private banking system using a not so common but well-known product called whole life insurance.

Now, that is not a sexy product. When I was told that from that guy Mike in my story, I'm like, are you kidding me? That's the worst place you could put your money. That's what I thought. So when these wealthy families did that, they said, okay, there's got to be a way to construct the contract behind the life insurance, behind the whole life, so that it works for what we want. And they figured it out. It's a specially designed contract that they did. Now, for generations and generations, most people will never figure this out.

What they said is, we're going to change where our money goes first. Instead of giving it to a bank that we don't control, and the bank is going to take our money. Let's just, real quick, let me, I'm going down a rabbit hole, so let me bring it back out. When we put our money in the bank, let me ask all of you a question. Why do you do that? And the answer, every one of you would say, well, I don't know, because that's what we're told to do. Some of you might be like, oh, because they pay me interest on my money. Great. Whatever your answer is, that's what you were taught to do.

Now, when you put the money in the bank, let's say the bank pays you 3%. Now, most of you are not getting 3%, but let's just pretend you were. Does the bank take your money and just put it in a vault and leave it sit there? Absolutely not. The bank takes your money and loans your money out at a higher interest rate. Simple, right? They pay you 3%, they lend it out at 6%, they make a 3-point spread. That's banking. So if we can just understand banking from its core, that's a pretty cool business, right? Banks are quite successful and make lots of money, and they control all of our money. We worked for the money the bank is putting to work and making the majority of it. Because statistically, if you look at Bauer Financial, banks make anywhere between 400 to 1,300% more than we do.

So you can continue to go through life putting the banks in control of your money, or you can get off of the rat race, and you can learn what the wealthy do, and that is control of their money. They changed where their deposits went first. Now, not all their money, but their savings, the money they were going to use for big purchases, for businesses, for anything they would do. And they put it in these specially designed whole life contracts.

Now, the money's in the whole life. Why would we want to do that versus the bank account? Well, number one, the guaranteed interest rate is significantly more than you get at a bank. Plus, it never changes. So when the banks drop interest rates with the Fed, insurance companies do not. It's contractually guaranteed. Secondarily, these are mutually owned insurance companies that pay dividends and have never ever missed the dividend in well over a hundred years, all of them. Okay. So now you get a dividend. So what is the interest in dividend? Well, about five and a half to 6.4% is what you can expect in 2025 right now. Are you getting that in your bank account? Absolutely not.

So we can already argue that you're making more with the insurance policy than you are with a bank account, but now you're earning in that tax-free. So now that let's call it 5.5%, to earn that in the bank account, you'd have to get like 6.5%, 7% after tax. So we're way better off from a return standpoint, and we're not paying tax on the gains, plus we got a death benefit. So we're in a good place.

But now the worst part is most people are like, yeah, but then you don't have access to that money. Right, if you did it into a regular whole life. But this is specially designed for high cash value. So you have access to your cash value immediately in the first 30 days. Now here, now I'm going to, now we just kind of discussed why a stupid whole life. Okay. So I think everybody, if you listen to what I said, would agree that like, yeah, that does sound better than the bank account. As long as I have liquidity of my money. And you just answered that immediately in the first 30 days, you have access to your money. Maybe not a hundred percent, but at least 60 to 90% of it immediately. And some of you are like, oh, I knew there was a catch. Stay with me.

Now let's look at where your money goes today. Most people listening to this have debt. Car loans and credit cards. So let's just start with a credit card. Let's just assume somebody has a visa. They owe five grand on the visa. It's 20% interest. And every month they pay $200 a month to that visa to try to pay that thing down. If you change where your savings went from bank to now this whole life, and now we wanted to get smart and pay off debt because that's the best return we can ever get. And some would be like, that's not the best return. Okay. What if I could guarantee you 20%? Would you want to know where you could get 20%? Oh, yeah, yeah. Guaranteed 20%. Where do I go? Pay your visa off and pay yourself the exact same amount you're paying visa. You took back and recaptured 20% because you're giving away 20%. If you pay that same amount to yourself, that $200, you indeed are making 20%. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Okay? Now let's go into infinite banking, what I teach every day in the simplest form. We start with the whole life policy. We owe Visa, $5,000. We saved up $5,000 in the policy. So what we're going to do is we're going to go to that insurance company and we're going to borrow $5,000 from the insurance company. The insurance company is not going to ask any questions. They're just going to give us $5,000 because we have $5,000 in cash value in the policy. So effectively, what the insurance company is doing is they're lending us $5,000 of our death benefit today while we're living because we have $5,000 that can collateralize that $5,000 of death benefit they're giving us. So we're just borrowing our death benefit while we're living. Every mutually owned life insurance company will allow you to do this. But what I'm going to tell you next, not every insurance company does.

The five grand you had in your account. Most of you, if I asked you if you had five grand and you just took five grand out to pay off visa, how much money's left in your account? Your brain will go to what you've been taught. You will think a bank account and you're like, well, I had five grand. I just took five grand, so I have zero. But in this equation, some of you read through the kind of words there, and you're like, no. You said you had five grand, and that five grand was earning five and a half to six percent-ish, and you borrowed five grand of your death benefit. So how much money is still earning five and a half to six percent? Five grand. And we borrowed the money from the insurance company and paid off Visa.

Now, the insurance company charges us interest. Let's call that five percent simple interest. And now, some of you are like, oh, I knew there was a catch. Yeah. Remember how a bank makes money. You give bank money, they give you 3%. You go to borrow money from the bank, they charge you 6%. They make a spread. Let's do some math. The insurance company, let's say it's 6%. Okay, simple math. You're earning 6%. The insurance company charges you 5%. Are you making a spread? Yes, you are. So does it matter that the insurance company charged you 5% to borrow your own money? No, because your money never left the account. Therefore, your money is earning uninterrupted compounding interest, and you still used it for the goal of paying off the credit card.

Now the credit card's gone. Now you've got to treat your money the same way you treat the bank's money. The equation is not done, and now you have to be an honest banker. So now the $200 you paid Visa every single month, you no longer owe that to them. Go in and change the name on the check and change the bill pay so that every month, that bill pay, $200 a month, same exact amount, pays back to you, but you deposit it back into that life insurance contract.

Now, every single time that $200 hits your contract, it is considered a loan repayment. We call it recycle recapture. You have $200 available that very moment your check hits the insurance policy. So you didn't lose any liquidity. You actually now have $200 that you didn't have before. But the $200 represents 20% you were giving away. So you have $200 in liquidity that you didn't have before, plus you got 20%, plus you're still making compounding interest on every dollar of that $5,000 that you put in there initially.

Now rinse and repeat that. Pay off all your debts. Then use the money to buy a car. Pay yourself back the exact same amount you would pay on a lease or on a financed car loan. You're getting all the money back. You're not leaking anymore. You're keeping every penny because you're controlling the rules of banking. That's all it is, folks. And it can go on and on, and it can get more and more complicated. But at the core, all you just did is took back the banking function in your life.

I teach this every single day to thousands of people. And like you said, in the beginning, they all think it's complicated. Then they see it operate. We put an operating system, which is software behind it. So they don't have to do all that work. It just is done for them. And they're like, this is the same thing I was doing before. Not a penny more is being saved or spent, but you're controlling it all because you changed the rules.

Host: So then what you're, what the guy that you met in Colorado, he had basically a large enough balance or available cash in his whole life policy that he was then using that to deploy strategic, using it as a way to deploy like debt service capital. So essentially he was just doing private loans. And then he was just arbitraging the interest rate to say, "Hey, Chris, I'm going to charge you 15 because I'm getting five points and I'm just making the difference on 10 and I just have to trust you enough through my own vetting system that I believe you're actually going to pay me back." And now all I'm getting is the vig on the interest without actually losing any cash, any free cash flow.

Guest: Well, yeah, but you missed one thing. So I love how you did that. You're like, it cost me five to use the money. And yes, he had several policies and most people that are going to do that are going to have multiple policies. And let's say it was a hundred grand he lent me. So he had a hundred grand that he could lend. So he did, this isn't fiat or this isn't fractional reserve banking. He had a hundred grand and he lent me a hundred grand. The insurance company charges him five, he charges me 15. So right there, let's just say that's a 10 point spread. But most people would be like, well, yeah, but if I lent a hundred thousand from my bank account to you at 15, I make the full 15. But what you're missing is that that insurance policy, that contract is still paying you guaranteed interest and dividends of roughly, I could argue that 6% is a pretty normal number today. So you're still making the 6% on the full 100, even though the 100 is out making 15. So effectively what Mike was doing is making money twice on the same dollar. Because he was. He's making a spread plus uninterrupted compounding interest. There is no other place on earth your dollar can earn twice for you at the same time. Period.

Unless you're a very, very wealthy individual, like Elon Musk. Okay, let's use that example. You've all probably heard Elon or heard people talk about how Elon does things. He borrows money. Okay, how? Well, Elon owns a lot of stock. Stock in Tesla, stock in all these other companies. And that stock's worth tons of money. But he doesn't want to sell his stock because then that's a taxable thing. He wants tax-free money. So what does he do? He borrows from a margin account, but he's got enough where the brokerage will allow him a margin account. Now, if his stock goes up, Elon has more margin to use. If the stock goes down, Elon has less money to use. We've heard about that too. Elon's net worth in one day when Tesla dropped, dropped like billions of dollars, right? But in a whole life, the only place it can go is up because it's guaranteed. It can't ever go down, but that's how you have to look at this is the wealthiest people in the world don't use their money. They leverage their money. All you're doing is the same exact thing, but in a guaranteed environment, in a tax-free environment, in a protected environment. And you're doing the same thing Elon's doing, but you're using insurance policies.

And then you could say, okay, well, who else does this? Well, presidents. McCain ran almost his entire political campaign was run out of his whole life policies. Love him or hate him. Biden, he said he had a bunch of Mass Mutual policies he ran his campaign from. You can go back to McDonald's was started with a loan, the real estate portion. And Ronald McDonald started with a loan from a whole life. Walt Disney World, or Disneyland, I should say, started from Walt Disney taking a loan from his whole life. You see, I'm not the only one that's done this. You just never heard about it because you've been so trained to think one way about money when the truth has been right there in front of you, but most people in the world won't look at the truth because they'll say, oh, that's stupid. Dave Ramsey said whole life is the worst place you can put your money. Yeah, but you're not looking at how it's designed.

And Will Rogers said this. Listen, folks, listen very closely to what I'm gonna say to you. Will Rogers had the most profound quote. He said, "The biggest problem in America is not what people don't know. The biggest problem in America is what people think that they know that just ain't so." That's what's holding most people back. They think they know what just ain't so.

Host: That's it. So guys, this is in no way negative towards you, dude, but everything he's saying is 100%. I mean, I've sold life insurance for a decade. Everything that he's talking about with these whole life policies is 100% accurate. And I know people who have used them to essentially as replacements for home equity loans. I know people that have used them to increase their real estate portfolios, et cetera. I will say I had never thought through, and I knew that these policies did these things. So technically everything Chris is saying is above board. Not that I need to validate that, but if anyone doesn't know you first time they're hearing from you, tactically and technically speaking, everything that Chris is saying is 100% accurate and true about how these types of whole life policies work, 100%.

What I had not wrapped my head around, and this is why I love podcasting at the very beginning of our conversation, is I had never wrapped my head around the idea despite having sold this product for literally a decade, the double take. I had never thought about that, right? Because you only ever think about it. You think about, hey, I'm going to deploy this capital to make a down payment on a rental property, or hey, I want to finance a new backyard for my house, and I'll take it out of there instead of if you don't want to take a home equity or you already have one, et cetera. But I hadn't thought about the idea of essentially you're still getting paid. Like I just hadn't wrapped my brain around still getting paid on the initial, the money that's still in the policy.

Guest: That you're not actually taking the money out. That's the only reason to use the policy. It is the only reason to use the policy. Because really, you said something pivotal in there. You said the product, the product, the product. Everything I just taught, I started with the product because you have to understand that. And that's the tangible thing most people are going to wrap their mind around. But think about what I just taught you. Almost everything I just taught you had nothing to do with the product. It had to do with the process. That's it.

You don't get wealthy buying a whole life policy and putting money in a whole life. Matter of fact, it'd make you poor. Okay. I'm going to be perfectly honest. If all you did is put money in a whole life policy and be like, oh, this Chris guy and Ryan validated it said that that's how I get wealthy. That is not how you get wealthy. That is literally how you get stuck. I didn't talk about that. I said, you put money in the whole life policy and then you find a place for that money to go work for you a second time. Because now, just like you said, you can earn money on the initial sum, but that money can be used again to go out and earn for you a second time.

And then we talked about banking. Everything I taught in that whole thing or any of those examples was banking. Banking 101 reverse engineered for your own private banking system, and that's it. It's a process you need to learn, but everybody wants to buy the product, so I emphasize the product and why you use it, and those reasons I gave. That's why you use the product, the policy, the specially designed whole life. But everything that's going to make you wealthy is not the product. It's the process. The policy just makes you a little bit more wealthy and more efficient because you always are earning on every single dollar.

Remember I mentioned earlier, most people are taught to work and trade time for money. Once you get off that and you start having your money work for you, that's when real wealth happens. Not when you keep working harder and longer like we're taught, like our parents taught us. And like our parents did, you become wealthy when your money's working for you. I just showed you a way to have your money work for you 24/7 for the rest of your life guaranteed. That's it.

Host: Yeah. I'm very glad you made that distinction. And what I wanted to validate for anyone who was skeptical that this isn't like some janky thing that you're making up. This is stuff people take out every day and not for this purpose, they take it out for whatever their reasons are, right? This is just what I love is that you've applied a tactical business process and a way to continue to accumulate and grow wealth on top of something that literally you could walk into any, most insurance agencies and every financial advising firm today and most likely put into place, you know, after an exam or whatever their process is. But like, it's not rocket science. It's a well-defined process and strategy put on top of a, essentially what would be an everyday product. I mean, I don't think I'm diminishing it by what it is. And I absolutely love that.

So when you are coaching people through this process, and I know the type of people that are listening to this, there's a lot of people that I know that'll be super interested in what this is and learning more. And we'll talk about that a little bit at the end. But like when you get people who miss, right, what are some of the common misses? And obviously if they're working with you, you can help correct them and help them see around those corners. But like, what are some of the things that someone could get themselves in trouble with, or maybe just completely misunderstand and step in a bucket if they're trying to do this on their own?

Guest: That's easy. I've seen this hundreds of times people miss. They hear about the concept, they get really excited and then they overcommit themselves. They're like, "Oh, well, I'm going to put this much into it right now." Now we ask, you know, is how much of you make? And then there's only certain percentages we'll allow, but they come into this saying, "I want to put all my money into this whole life." Don't do that. Keep money going into a bank account to pay your normal bills, your utilities, your groceries, your rent, and things like that. Because listen, like that money's just gone anyway. And you don't want to put money into the policy, take money out to pay those. It's just not efficient. The money that goes in the policy and goes back out to work should go somewhere where it can earn more than the cost of capital. So if the cost of capital from the insurance company is five, that money should be out working at least 5.5% or higher, right? That's a simple rule. So people forget that rule, and they put money in the policy, and they start paying their rent. They start buying groceries with it, and they're doing this. You're still earning on all the money, but now the money's going out in a place where it's not earning. So that's miss number one.

The biggest miss of all of them is, and I preface this many times, some people didn't pick it up. Think of this as Monopoly, right? We all have played Monopoly. Let's just go there. You start on go. Your goal is to go around the board, and then some people play Monopoly with the goal of getting to go because they get $200 when they pass go. That would be the policy dividend, right? Think of that as every year you pass go because the insurance company pays you a dividend. If that's how you played Monopoly, you'd never win the game. Never. But then there's the strategic players that go around and they strategically find properties along the way to deploy their money that they saved or that they had in their bank in Monopoly. They buy rentals, right? That's mostly what it is. Or they buy railroads. And those railroads pay money back to it. Okay?

Guest: Those are the opportunities we look for in infinite banking. But yet, every year when we pass go, we get that $200, the dividend. So if you think about it that way.

Now, let's just say you played Monopoly where every dollar that you earned from all of those opportunities, the railroads or the properties or Mediterranean or all, I'm trying to remember, boardwalk, you own those. But let's just say you took the money from that and you just blew it. You just went out and you partied it or you spent it on clothing or whatever. You would never win the game. You'd actually go bankrupt in the game.

Well, in the game of life, the same thing applies. Where people make the mistake is they use the money from the policy, they deploy that money, and then they never recapture and recycle the money. So they pay off Visa and they're excited. They no longer owe Visa money, but then they forget to change the name on the check and pay that money back to their bank. They just paid off someone else's bank, but now they don't pay their bank back. That is just bad banking. That is not being an honest banker. And that is the single biggest problem I see.

So big that two years ago we set off on a mission to fix that problem. Because I'm a problem solver. I realized in life if I wanted to become wealthy, my number one thing I need to do is solve other people's problems. My problem doesn't matter. But if I solve somebody else's problem, I can make a lot of money because that's the way the universe works. You give, and then the universe gives back. But you never give just to get back. Otherwise, reverse engine, it doesn't work.

So we created a software. Think of it as an operating system that will do all of that for you because we found that people, listen, even if you teach them, even if you show them, life gets in the way, their mind drifts back to the old way of doing it, they just are not good with money. I don't mean to put down anybody, but most people are not good with money. They don't, they're not a good steward of money. They're not a good manager of money. They suck at managing their own money.

So we said, all right, to fix this, the only way to do it is to automate it. We created software, and that software launches in October. We've been testing it. We've got a bunch of users. It literally does the infinite banking concept for you. All you need to do is just like when you get in your car and you've got to go somewhere, you type coordinates in your GPS. The GPS, you don't even need to think. You could be talking. You could be listening to music. Turn right. You turn right. Turn left. You turn left. Arrive at destination. Piece of cake.

But some people, when they're driving, their GPS goes, especially on the thruway, you miss the exit. You're like, damn it. Now you're going to prolong it a little bit. It's going to take you a little more time. But you know what? The GPS is going to course correct you. Most people in real life without some type of GPS system, if they miss the exit, they get flustered, they get frantic, and they continue to go the wrong direction. And they get even worse off. That happens in this world, too, of be your own bank. People just get off base, off track, and they never get back on.

The software is the GPS that brings you back because if you get off base, it's going to recalculate and put you back on track. And as long as you can read and follow instructions like you do in building Legos, you will never, ever, ever fail at being your own bank. But this is the very first time this has ever been done in this industry. It's revolutionary.

And literally, like, I say this to my team and I'll say this to your audience. We are about to change an entire industry and we are about to literally flip it upside down and give people absolute certainty mathematically that this works for the first time because up to this point our Nelson Nash's book *Becoming Your Own Banker* was conceptual. Now it is a mathematical certainty.

And listen, folks, I'm not saying this stuff because I want you to buy our software or use us to create your policy. I'm literally just telling you how I've got where I'm at. I solve people's problems. And the other thing I was taught, Ryan, that I'm sure you know being a Buffalo guy, is a mentor a long time ago. I was in a rough place. You heard some of those fall on my face places. I was there. And I went to this mastermind that I couldn't afford. Put it on a credit card. And I went there with expectations because I just spent five grand to go to this mastermind. I'm like, I got to get something from this.

The guy who was putting the mastermind on was Greg. Wildly successful. Crazy author. Napoleon Hill like does all that stuff. And he had the owner of Pictionary there. He had the owner of Uggs Boots there. He had the owner of Make-A-Wish there. So I walk in and I'm like, I am nobody. So I went to him and I said, Greg, I need the best advice you can give me. To which he puts his hand on my shoulder, leans into me and says, I'm going to give you the best advice I can give anyone. I'm like, this is what I paid five grand for. And then he says these words to me, and I want all of you to react however you would if you were me. He says, give your best stuff away for free.

Got it. My reaction was you mother... I don't want to swear on your show, but actually in New York, we have a license to swear here. So I could, but you get it, folks. I'm like, this is what I paid five grand for. So you can tell me to give my shit away for free. Well, that was the best advice.

So if you go to my YouTube channel, I've got thousands of videos that we spend $25,000 a month in production costs to create because I'm giving of my best stuff away for free. We do six webinars every single week teaching all variations of this and private money and we give them away for free. We don't charge a penny. And we have hundreds of people join us. So like, there really was truth in that.

And that's all I've done folks, is given my best stuff away for free, made my whole life's model, my business model, my culture in my business, all to be one thing and that is to solve someone else's problem. That is it. And I have become wildly successful because of it. But you know what? Who cares about me? Folks, all of you could do way better than I have because some of you are a lot younger than me. I'm 48. Like you got so much more time than me.

Just take those things that I just said and apply those in your life. Solve other people's problems. Give your best stuff away for free. Live and never ever quit and just keep persistently consistently doing what it is you're good at and focus only on what it is you're good at. I think a lot of people, especially with college, they get off on this track of things that they don't like, but they're like, oh, but they pay a lot of money. You'll never make it because you'll hate your life. You'll hate what you do because it's not something you're passionate about.

I've done that. I've chased TV shows and we had a show on HGTV, Flipping Houses called *Risky Builders*. Hated it. Hated it. But I'm like, oh, but we're going to make a lot of money and this is cool. You're going to be famous. Hated it. I would have never made it. Do things you love.

Host: Dude, if we could just snowboard and ride BMX our whole life, that would have been epic. But you know whatever. I'm a skier, so judge me as you will.

Guest: But yes, I don't judge skiers. I ride with skis every day. I, uh, back in the day I could do the parks with... I'll tell you what broke me. We used to do the parks with all my snowboard buddies, right? And the only thing I never landed, I never landed a flip. But I got helicopter, I got most of the other stuff. So I'm happy with my life goals, my skiing life goals. And then I watched a friend of mine try to do a flip on skis. Come down and I watched his forearm bone basically crack in half because he landed, he put his hand down. And I said, you know, I don't know if I want to go 20 feet up in the air anymore. I think I'm okay. I'm gonna stay a little closer to the ground. And now I just don't get into it as much.

But yeah, no dude, this has been fucking incredible.

Host: Dude, it got incredible when we both acknowledged *Rad*. Like, let's be honest, BYOB and all this other thing. The pinnacle moment of this whole podcast was nothing that I just taught you was to play. It was every one of your audience needs to watch that movie. We've exposed more people to the movie *Rad*.

Guest: And I'll tell you guys, the soundtrack is amazing. My 11 and 9-year-olds still listen to "Break the Ice" all the time. I mean, it's just such a phenomenal show. I mean, what other movie has BMX dancing and it's cool? Like it's actually cool. Like that sounds ridiculous, but when you watch the movie with the song and it's just, it's just phenomenal. There's nothing that's not cool about that movie. There is nothing that's not cool.

Host: Where do people go? They want more of this. I'm sure they will. And guys, everything that Chris talks about, we'll have linked up in the show notes or the description, wherever you're watching or listening, scroll down, you'll find it. But what's the best place for them to get started?

Guest: Remember the story with Mike. I wanted to do this, and Mike said, I can't teach you. You've got to go to this guy. This guy had me watch a 90-minute video. Now, this is over a decade ago. So, folks, I'm going to tell you, if you were interested in learning anything about this, I've got thousands of videos on YouTube, but do me a favor. Go to chrisnaugle.com. It's N-A-U-G-L-E, and then a video will pop up. It's a 90-minute video, the same one I watched, just modernized. Watch that video. It's not *Rad*, but it's pretty freaking cool. It's very cinematic and very fun. And it has my whole story with the BMX in there. Watch that movie or that video. And that will give you the fundamentals. That's the starting place.

Then join us for our webinars every week. Watch my YouTube content at The Chris Naugle. I'm not hard to find at The Chris Naugle on every social channel. And we put some crazy stuff out there. So I think, you know, even if you're just after entertainment folks, you will like the stuff we put out on YouTube.

Host: I love it, man. I appreciate the hell out of you. It's been a tremendous conversation and look forward to the next time that we connect. Thanks so much.

Guest: Me too. Thanks, Ryan. Really fun.