--:-- Host: With the ongoing war in Gaza, controversy over pro-Hamas demonstrations and anti-Jewish bigotry on college campuses has intensified, raising questions about the root of the radical movement in academia.
--:-- Host: In this episode of Morning Wire, we get some insight on that from a former diversity, equity, and inclusion director who was let go from her position, in part, she claims, due to her efforts to root out anti-Semitism on her campus.
--:-- Host: Thanks for waking up with us. It's November 26th, and this is a Sunday edition of Morning Wire.
--:-- Host: Joining us is Dr. Tavia Lee, Senior Fellow with Do No Harm Medicine.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: Thanks for having me on today.
--:-- Host: So in a recent opinion piece, you talked about how most people have been shocked by some of the anti-Semitism they've seen on college campuses. But for you, it actually wasn't that surprising.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: In light of my experience in my role as DEI director for De Anza College in Silicon Valley, I wrote in an op-ed that I had seen this pattern of anti-Semitism long before the Hamas attacks.
--:-- Host: What did it look like on campus in your experience?
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: I have been an educator my whole life, and I had never seen deeply entrenched anti-Semitism until I became involved in the California community college system.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: It's throughout the system. And it's because of some of the ideologies that are in place.
--:-- Host: But how did that look?
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: Right when I first started off, I did over 60 hours of needs assessment conversations. And I spoke with faculty, staff, senior administrators, senior leadership.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: And over and over, it was mentioned that De Anza has a problem with anti-Semitism.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: Things were cited like flyers being dropped on the campus, anti-Semitic flyers with negative tropes about Jewish people a couple of years before I came.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: Some people told me about how students had been invited to a Hanukkah event on campus, Jewish students.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: And when they arrived, there was no menorah. There was no mention of Hanukkah.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: There was nothing there besides Students for Justice for Palestine, banners and posters and people wearing pins that stated Students for Justice for Palestine and Free Palestine.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: I mean, the students are made to feel very uncomfortable because of that.
--:-- Host: Another thing I was told about, again, this was before I arrived, but people told me that our Jewish Student Union had brought forth a resolution to the student government to adopt the IRA definition of anti-Semitism.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: And instead, their efforts were subverted and a counter resolution was brought forth from a group of students who were not Jewish.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: And then not only that, they ended up not even adopting, you know, a definition of anti-Semitism, but instead condemning Israel for its actions that they perceived were you know hurting the Palestinian state
--:-- Host: So it sounds like there were people blowing the whistle from the administrative level and maybe from the student level as well, saying that there was some anti-Semitism.
--:-- Host: But there was also this deeply baked in bias against Jewish students or Jewish people.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: It sounds like in your department specifically, where was it that you saw the most pushback?
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: So the bodies and organizations that were involved in some of the things I talked to you about were governance bodies.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: Student government, the academic senate, which is faculty representation, my office, which was the Office of Equity, Social Justice, and Multicultural Education.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: And of course, that dean of equity and engagement who ultimately made many of the decisions not to act and actually to oppose my acting about these things.
--:-- Host: And as I work to unpack it and understand it, that's where this whole idea that I've been really trying to teach people about at a broader level of understanding critical social justice because it not just at Diaz it at as I mentioned many other California community colleges and public and private universities throughout the nation
--:-- Host: I learned you know since my story broke and people have been hearing about it
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: How long had you been in the DEI space?
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: And did you see it transform over the course of your career?
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: Yes. So my entire life, I've been working in the education field.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: And truly, I did not encounter this kind of understanding of social justice until I got to the California Community College space.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: I had been working in private Catholic universities in the capacity as an adjunct professor.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: But in those spaces, the type of social justice that have been worked on for hundreds of years through some of these institutions was a classical social justice approach.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: And it really aligned with my values and who I was as a person and a teacher, and how I had taught my middle schoolers when I taught civics and social studies and English in East Los Angeles Public Middle Schools.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: You know, I never told any of my students that, you know, they were victims or that they were oppressed or, you know, that there was a power matrix and they were born into a certain section of it and the intersections of their different oppressions and privileges, you know, would kind of chart the way their life is.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: That's what a critical social justice approach does.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: Instead, I taught my students, you know, you can be anything, you know, you can work with your community to enact positive change.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: You have agency as a human, you have free will.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: That's a classical social justice approach to teaching and learning and focusing on the individual and communities and equality of opportunity.
--:-- Host: Those are all things that I had seen in the educational spaces, public and private, that I had worked in.
--:-- Host: Prior to 2020, when I first got into the California Community College space as a teacher, that's when I started to see this critical social justice approach.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: And as I started to try to work to understand and define, you know, what does social justice mean to us?
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: What does equity mean to us?
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: As I heard the competing definitions on the campus from the individual teachers and faculty members there, I realized that some people were like me, working from a classical perspective.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: And there were others who were far more vocal, mean-spirited, and actually making policy changes and so forth who were on this critical social justice, you know, end of the poll.
--:-- Host: It's very polarized.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: And I was shut out and my tenure review process was subverted by, you know, people who in writing, you know, would put down that I offended their ideological perspective.
--:-- Host: It was all about ideologies and I shouldn't be talking about controversial topics and so forth in the write-ups that I received.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: So that brings me to my next question.
--:-- Host: You were ultimately let go from your DEI director position.
--:-- Host: Did any of your colleagues stand with you during that time?
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: Yes. And this is unfortunate.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: So the environment that a critical social justice, when it dominates a institution, what you see is a silencing, a shaming, and a shunning of anyone who steps out of line, who asks a question, who says, hey, is that really the thing we should do?
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: Or, oh, I just have some questions that I want to know, clarification, you know, about why we're going to make this resolution towards racial healing and not include the Jewish people and other people for example
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: That was one of the discussions at the end with the Academic Senate
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: And there were a few courageous people who stood by me and who you know did work with me
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: We had a Heritage Month work group that was campus-wide.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: We made a lot of positive changes.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: That was actually supported by our student government.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: They made a resolution saying our work was, you know, important and needed.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: And then the Academic Senate said, you know, this sounds like all the Jewish stuff you've been doing, so we're not going to support it.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: That was actually stated.
--:-- Host: And so the people that did stand by me and who did work with me, one of them was later accused of being racist.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: This person had been with the district for almost 40 years as a part-timer.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: So that's why they were able to let this person go.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: They were accused of being racist for writing their dean long emails.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: And it's just completely ridiculous, but careers destroyed and no longer able to work.
--:-- Host: And in some cases, when they're able to join together and do a mass action like they were with me, they can eventually be successful.
--:-- Host: It's almost like gangs.
--:-- Host: They're like gangsters, not teachers.
--:-- Host: It's like a turf that they're protecting.
--:-- Host: And if you offend one of their bosses, you will be neutralized.
--:-- Host: Now, last question.
--:-- Host: I know many conservative-leaning people tend to be very wary of DEI, just for the reasons that you've outlined.
--:-- Host: In your experience, are your liberal colleagues also beginning to be wary of it, or is there still a pretty stark political divide there?
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: Something that I've noticed is that the ideological extremes, like the extremes on the left and the right, and I'm neither, they are looking more and more like each other every day and more than they would even care to recognize.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: And they need to really see themselves.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: I've seen on the left and on the right, just extreme intolerance for viewpoint diversity, intolerance for academic freedom, for freedom of speech.
--:-- Dr. Tavia Lee: And it's on these both extremes, the far left and the far right.
--:-- Host: And that's who's ripping us all apart.
--:-- Host: When I see what's happening in our college campuses, where we see faculty members encouraging students and students encouraging each other to celebrate the actions of a terrorist organization, Hamas.
--:-- Host: And they're celebrations. They're not protests.
--:-- Host: They're saying things like, from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.
--:-- Host: And one of them I saw, students were saying, gas the Jews.
--:-- Host: All of these things are hateful and they're wrong.
--:-- Host: And it's rooted in this critical social justice ideology.
--:-- Host: And that's a danger for all of us, whether you're on the left or the right.
--:-- Host: And it's sickening to me.
--:-- Host: I've seen student groups who are far right groups and far left groups doing these activities.
--:-- Host: And soon those groups will be marching with each other and united in their anti-Semitism.
--:-- Host: These things need to be rooted out of our schools.
--:-- Host: All right. Well, Tavia, well said.
--:-- Host: Thank you so much for coming on.
--:-- Host: That was Dr. Tavia Lee, Senior Fellow with Do No Harm Medicine.
--:-- Host: You can find more of her work at www.drtlee.com.
--:-- Host: This has been a Sunday episode of Morning Wire.
