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--:-- John Bickley: This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. When you visit the doctor, you probably hand over your insurance, your ID, and contact details. It's just one of the many places that has your personal info. And if any of them accidentally expose it, you could be at risk for identity theft. LifeLock monitors millions of data points a second. If you become a victim, they'll fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year at LifeLock.com slash podcast. Terms apply.
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--:-- John Bickley: Amid massive controversy over policies in the U.S. and abroad related to transgender medical procedures for minors, more and more people who have attempted to transition are now openly expressing regret. A common thread in their stories is feeling that medical professionals recklessly push them forward in the process without their ability to fully understand the often permanent consequences.
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--:-- John Bickley: In this episode, we talked to Mary Margaret Olohan, who has authored a new book detailing the journeys of several detransitioners. I'm Daily Wire editor-in-chief John Bickley. It's Saturday, May 4th, and this is an extra edition of Morning Wire. Joining us now to discuss her new book, Detrans, True Stories of Escaping the Gender Ideology Cult is Mary Margaret Olohan, a senior reporter at The Daily Signal and our guest host this last week.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: Thanks for having me.
--:-- John Bickley: Thanks so much for coming on. This is So fun to talk about my book on Morning Wire. And it's been great having you on this week as guest host.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: Thanks so much.
--:-- John Bickley: So look, your book, Detrans, comes out later this month. It tells the true stories of people who have detransitioned. This is a very controversial topic, though it's becoming something that people are paying increasing attention to. First, tell us something about the people you talked to for this book.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: Yeah, these people I talked to were largely young people who transitioned in their teens or attempted to transition, right? Because we know that a man can't actually become a woman and a woman can't actually become a man. But that's the lie that they were sold by doctors and therapists and medical professionals.
--:-- John Bickley: So these young people, including Chloe Cole, Prisha Mosley, and Abel Garcia, they went on hormones to try and become another gender. So for the girls, when they would take testosterone, they would notice all these bizarre physical and mental changes. For example, their hair changed, their skin got coarser, their voices got really deep. Some of the girls could no longer scream or cry and they found that really disturbing.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: And then mentally, a lot of these girls were describing extreme rage and very increased sexual urges. They said that they sort of felt like they were going through a male puberty, but at the same time, kind of felt like they were going through female menopause in their teenage years. So just really confusing, disturbing emotional and physical side effects that they weren't actually able to give informed consent for.
--:-- John Bickley: These are kids we're talking about. And so when they consented supposedly to these procedures, they had no idea what they were getting into. So now a lot of them are suing.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: Right. And I want to get to those lawsuits soon. But what age did these transitions begin? Most of these transitions began when these young people were in their teens. So Chloe Cole, by the time she was 16, had undergone a double mastectomy and removed her breasts forever.
--:-- John Bickley: So sometimes surgeries, and I assume that all of them underwent hormone treatments as well, correct?
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: Yes, though some of them did it in different orders. For example, Luca Hine, a young woman who was trying to become a man, got a double mastectomy before she went on hormones.
--:-- John Bickley: And these hormones, I should add, are a costly investment for young people that they're going to continue taking for the majority of their lives. I remember Matt Walsh did a really great investigation on how these young people are often gaining hormones and how they're accessing them and the kind of profits that organizations are making from giving hormones to young people, older people to try and change their bodies.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: And we still don't know all of the experimental effects that these hormones are going to have on them. Right, more studies are coming out on that with some very troubling findings.
--:-- John Bickley: Did any of these detransitioners discuss with you what really pushed them over the edge in terms of deciding to transition in the first place?
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: Yes, I actually talked to them about this at length because I think it's really, really important to understanding where our culture is at and why so many young people are feeling called to do this. Most of the detransitioners I talked to had a little bit of a turbulent family life. Nothing that we might consider crazy but many of them had parents who were not doing well in their relationship with one another They were getting divorced One young woman who I spoke with had a mother who was alcoholic Another young man that I spoke with had a parent whose relationships weren't great and was largely raised by his grandmother.
--:-- John Bickley: So most of these young people were not in stable family situations. None of them were in families that were practicing faith, which I found really interesting. None of these people that I talked to were playing sports. They largely felt lonely and ostracized at school. They felt like they either were on the spectrum or they suspected that they were on the spectrum.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: And that's something that is actually very common for those who are identifying as transgender is that they are on the spectrum. And so all of these factors were playing into them feeling lonely and disconnected at school, not sure whether they were fitting in and looking for identity and companionship in other places, which unfortunately in our day and age often ends up being the internet.
--:-- John Bickley: Right. And so they saw people promoting this or people in groups that they felt like maybe they could connect with that also had similar feelings. And then at some point they sought medical help.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: Oh, every single detransitioner I spoke with said they were absolutely fast-tracked through the medical system. I think it was Luca who was just saying yesterday that when she went in and told her therapist that she wondered if she was a boy. It was like she had said the magic words. And from there on out, she was right on the way to her transition.
--:-- John Bickley: And I think it's worth pointing out that a lot of these transition procedures are very much attached to the next step. So for example, when Chloe starts talking to her doctors about getting puberty blockers to stunt her puberty while she supposedly figures out what gender she is, that's what the doctors would tell her. So when she's about to go on puberty blockers, the presumption is the next thing she's going to do is go on testosterone.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: And then the presumption from there is that, of course, she's going to get a double mastectomy. And the presumption from there is that she might get a hysterectomy. And the presumption from there is that she might want to get fake male genitalia. So it just compounds and compounds and compounds. It's very costly. It's very invasive.
--:-- John Bickley: And all of the detransitioners I spoke with said that they just felt like they were put on this road, very little questions asked and sent on their way.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: Did you see patterns in terms of how the parents or the family handled this transition process? Were they involved? Were they worried? Was there a pushback?
--:-- John Bickley: Yeah, that's one of the most tragic aspects of this crisis that we're seeing all these young people going through. I would say largely when it comes to teenagers and young adults who are going through this gender dysphoria and identifying as, you know, a girl identifying as a man, their parents love them and they want to help them.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: And what the parents are told by the medical system is, would you rather have a dead daughter or a living son? And that's a threat to these parents. They're told by doctors, would you rather have a dead daughter or a living son? And these parents, many of whom are not well-versed in politics or gender ideology, they're thinking, my daughter or my son is struggling so much, very obviously mentally struggling, and I want to help them.
--:-- John Bickley: So I'm going to trust that these doctors know what they're doing. And unfortunately, the doctors are betraying not just the parents, but also the young person, and they're lying and promising things that cannot be attained, including that these surgeries and these procedures will make the young person happy.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: These doctors shouldn't be promising that. They have no ability to provide that happiness. But that's why I call it a gender ideology cult in the title of my book, because this is very cult-like. It's not scientific. It's not safe. It's experimental and cult-like, and it's incredibly scary.
--:-- John Bickley: Now, one of the entities that's driving this movement, particularly in the medical industry, is WPATH. And a lot of these doctors will cite WPATH, what they call standards of care, as sort of their cover for the action that they take, their playbook for how they carry out these procedures.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: So with the recent expose of the WPATH files, we know that many of these so-called experts that are involved with WPATH are actually not experts at all. They're conducting experimental treatments and they're aware that the treatments that they are encouraging and they conducting are experimental and dangerous.
--:-- John Bickley: For example the WPATH files showed that these doctors were aware that sometimes hormones are causing tumors in young people They were aware that sometimes young people are suffering losses of fertility from taking hormones or puberty blockers. And yet they weren't sharing these things publicly.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: And meanwhile, all of these pro-transgender sites and all of these medical organizations will tout the WPATH certifications or the WPATH doctors and media outlets will say things like, all major medical organizations support gender affirming care. And they'll cite, guess who? WPATH. So it's a very circular little game that they're all playing here in condoning these treatments that we know to be experimental.
--:-- John Bickley: And I've said this before, But I do think there is a reckoning coming for these doctors involved with WPATH. I do believe that that expose of those files was the beginning of the end for this organization, and I hope it is.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: Yeah, we've heard rumblings of lawsuits being filed or in the works, and I wouldn't be surprised if we see some directed their way.
--:-- John Bickley: So we have this process that you described where these kids that are lonely, often feeling isolated, seek out a sense of identity, and then they seek medical help. But now you've talked to some that have come through the other side of this and feel a lot of regret and a desire to detransition. What was that process like for them, trying to turn around, turn back to who they were biologically?
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: Well, it began on a very traumatic note because to decide to detransition means that all these people have to, first of all, recognize that they were lied to. And so multiple of the detransitioners in my book told me that the moment that they realized that everything was wrong, it all kind of came crashing down around them because it was really a moment of realizing, oh my gosh, I'm not happy. I'm still struggling. In fact, I feel worse than I felt before my surgery, before my hormones.
--:-- John Bickley: And from there on out, they would go to their doctors, some of them, and say, I don't like this anymore. I don't want to be a man. Can you help me detransition? And the doctors don't want to hear that.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: As I believe it was Abel Garcia told me when he went to his doctors and asked them to help him detransition, they were telling him, oh, this is just part of your gender journey. And first of all, it's an incredibly insulting and hard thing to hear when you have been through so much suffering and you're asking for help.
--:-- John Bickley: But also the doctors made it clear that they, A, didn't know how to help and B, weren't really interested in trying. And so that's something that I'm going to be doing more reporting on is the cowardly doctors who were refusing to help detransitioners who've been very hurt by the medical system.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: And now they have no medical professionals to help them. So they're going through this process of detransitioning alone, and they're finding that they have a lot of complications from the hormones. They're still figuring out if they're infertile, they're still figuring out what kinds of medical complications they have from the hormones, such as changes in bone density, aches and pains in their shoulders and in their back.
--:-- John Bickley: Chloe Cole, for example, her double mastectomy wounds have not fully healed, and it's been years.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: So these are just a few of the things that they're still trying to deal with and with very little medical help.
--:-- John Bickley: Did you see any pattern in terms of timeline? Was there a consistent pattern or is this as individual as a person is? I mean, is this months, years later that regret usually starts to kick in?
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: I do think it was very individualized depending on the person I talked to. Luca, for example, was on testosterone for four years before she stopped taking it. Helena was on testosterone for a much shorter time. And thank God, Helena did not get a double mastectomy.
--:-- John Bickley: So she detransitioned more quickly than some of the other ones. But I will say that though there are a lot of patterns in all these detransitioners stories, each one is really unique in the really sad suffering that they went through.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: And I think they would all tell you that they have very individualized experiences, but they've all started speaking up. Specifically, the detransitioners who are in my book, they go and testify before state lawmakers. They speak very frequently and try and help other people with gender dysphoria.
--:-- John Bickley: And they would tell you that detransition is not the end and that they're living very fruitful and exciting lives. Prisha Mosley, for example, is about to have a baby, which is honestly a miracle given what she has been through.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: So that's something that I'm really happy for her and excited to see her start a family.
--:-- John Bickley: Speaking of families we talked about how much they supported or not the transition process What about the detransition process Did you see any patterns there with the families
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: In terms of detransitioning that is something that's very hard for the detransitioner to tell their parents because in Luca's case, her parents hadn't wanted her to transition. They were nervous, they were scared, but they thought that it was the best thing to do. They were told by doctors that it was the best thing for their daughter.
--:-- John Bickley: And she herself had to convince them to go through with it. So she said that when she called her mother to tell her this was all a mistake, it was one of the hardest conversations she had ever had because in effect, she was saying, you were right. And my life has been fundamentally changed by all of this. And you knew what you were talking about, but you trusted the doctors instead of yourself.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: And I think that's a really tragic conversation to have to have with your parent.
--:-- John Bickley: And what about the opposite? Was there any resentment for the parents that were overly supportive of the transition process? That I am interested in knowing myself, John, because some of these detransitioners are very respectful of their families and they don't want to necessarily throw them under the bus on this.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: So I don't hear a ton about resentment when it comes to the detransitioners' relationships with their families. I think that they're aware that this is a topic that they have to be careful about, because I think many are quick to call out parents for allowing their children to go down this path and rightfully so.
--:-- John Bickley: But at the same time, the detransitioners want there to be empathy for their parents and what they went through.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: Although I should add, there absolutely are parents who are pushing their children down this path for selfish and narcissistic reasons. And those parents really should be held accountable for their actions.
--:-- John Bickley: Yeah, we've all seen the social media posts of parents announcing that their two-year-old is the opposite gender and things like that. It's hard not to conclude that it's more about the parents than the children.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: So the last chapter of your book is about the tragic story of Abby Martinez and her daughter. What happened there and why did you include that?
--:-- John Bickley: Yeah, this is probably the most emotional chapter in the book to me. I spoke with Abby Martinez, the mother of Yalie Martinez, a young girl who grew up in California. and Yaley stumbled into some bad friendships in high school. The school began socially transitioning her. So speaking to her as though she were a boy, having her meet with a therapist who was similarly treating her.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: And Yaley slowly but surely began to distance from her mother, from her family. And ultimately the California Department of Child and Family Services took Yaeli away from her family and started her on testosterone.
--:-- John Bickley: And Abby, her mother, was understandably distraught, was trying to see her daughter, was struggling with making contact with her daughter in a positive way because the girl was just very upset and confused.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: And ultimately, Yaeli threw herself in front of a train and ended her own life. And I included this story in the book, it's very sad and it's emotional. And Abby herself sobbed on the phone to me as she shared it with me.
--:-- John Bickley: But I included it because all the detransitioners in my book, those are people who've been through very hard and traumatic things, but they are okay. They're on the other side of it. And thankfully they're living fruitful lives and they're doing well. But in this case, Yeli did not make it. Yeli is no longer with us.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: And her mother is still suffering intensely from what her daughter was put through. And Abby told me that she wants people to know what she's been through so that they can avoid having this happen to their own children. She said this pain never ends.
--:-- John Bickley: And I think it'll be a deeply impactful story for people to read. It was very impactful for me to write. I obtained the police report from the officers who found all the pieces of Yalie's body all over the train tracks. And I included a lot of that because when I read it, it stayed with me. And I don't think I will ever forget it.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: And I think it is a really horrific, but powerful testimony to what gender ideology can do to any young person.
--:-- John Bickley: A truly powerful story. Like you said, tragic, but important to hear that testimony. Mary Margaret, thank you so much for coming on and great luck with this book.
--:-- Mary Margaret Olohan: John, thank you so much. I'm so grateful to be able to share this with your audience.
--:-- John Bickley: That was Mary Margaret Olohan, author of D-Trans, True Stories of Escaping the Gender Ideology Cult, and this has been an extra edition of Morning Wire.
