--:-- [Upbeat music fades out, and the hosts introduce themselves]
--:-- Georgia Howe: I'm Georgia Howe.
--:-- John Bickley: And I'm John Bickley, editor-in-chief of Daily Wire. Welcome to this weekend edition of Morning Wire.
--:-- Georgia Howe: Joining us today is Vani Hari, best-selling author, activist, and creator of the Food Babe blog. Vani, thanks so much for coming on.
--:-- Vani Hari: Thank you so much for having me.
--:-- John Bickley: So, Vani, tell us a little bit about your path to food activism. How did you become interested in nutrition to begin with?
--:-- Vani Hari: Yeah, my parents came here as immigrants in the 1960s. And when they came to the United States, they were big on adopting the American culture. And so when my dad went back to have an arranged marriage to my mother in India, and they ended up coming here to live the rest of their life, the first thing he introduced her to was a McDonald's hamburger. And that's how I was raised, on an American Standard Diet.
--:-- Georgia Howe: Wow, that's fascinating.
--:-- Vani Hari: We were one of the only Indian families in Charlotte at that point, Charlotte, North Carolina, where I grew up and where I live now. So everything was kind of handed to us in terms of what we should be eating. And my parents were very trusting of the American food system. And as a result, I was really sick as a child. I had eczema. I had asthma. I was in and out of doctor's offices for most of my life.
--:-- John Bickley: I'm so sorry to hear that.
--:-- Vani Hari: I was on so many prescription drugs. When my parents would take me to the doctors, they never asked them, like, what is she eating? What are you feeding her? They never asked about my diet. They just put me on the next medication. And that is how I grew up.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And then what happened that made you start to question the food system?
--:-- Vani Hari: In my early 20s, I hit rock bottom when I ended up in the hospital having to get my appendix taken out, one of my organs. And at the time they said, you know, your appendix is something that you don't even need. It's an organ that just can come out. They made such a light situation out of it. But I started to question what the doctors were telling me, which is, you know, why do we evolve having an appendix first of all?
--:-- John Bickley: Yeah, that's a great question.
--:-- Vani Hari: But I wanted to find answers of like what happened to my appendix of why it was about to burst. And so when I started to research really what was happening in my body, I found out that I had extreme inflammation and that was coming from my diet. And when I started to make changes shortly after that scare and that situation, I remember getting this one big book and in it, there was a concept in it that hit me like a ton of bricks.
--:-- Georgia Howe: What was that concept?
--:-- Vani Hari: The majority of foods on the grocery store shelf are dead. They're not alive. And I was like, that's how I've felt for most of my life. Like a zombie, not wanting to get up in the morning and go to school, not wanting to participate in activities and physical sport activities because I didn't have the energy because of my asthma.
--:-- John Bickley: Wow, that's really powerful.
--:-- Vani Hari: And so when I started to take the concepts in that book and apply them to my life, and I started to eat as much real living food as possible, things like fruits and vegetables and things that I would find at the farmer's market, my whole life changes. I mean, it was dramatic to the point where I lost all of the weight that I had put on as a result of this lifestyle, but I also started to realize a level of health that I never thought was possible.
--:-- Georgia Howe: That's amazing.
--:-- Vani Hari: I got off nine prescription drugs and the people around me that grew up with me, my relatives, my friends, they were like, whoa, you have made a dramatic transformation in your appearance. What are you doing? We want a piece of what you're doing.
--:-- John Bickley: And that's when you started the Food Babe blog?
--:-- Vani Hari: Yeah, they begged me actually to start a blog to share this information, to share my recipes and what I was doing and why suddenly I refused to eat candy because it had artificial food dyes. And they wanted to know the green drink that I was drinking and what was in it and how they could make it at home.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And what was the first major food company that you took on?
--:-- Vani Hari: The first one that reached out was a yogurt chain who I was very upset with because they were really promoting the fact that they were using organic milk for their yogurt. And I was like, this is amazing. This is so awesome. I could go to the mall and I could have this treat and it's good for me. But when you looked at the ingredients they were coloring their products with artificial food dye They were putting in preservatives and trans fats.
--:-- John Bickley: Wow, that's shocking.
--:-- Vani Hari: Yeah, and so I wrote about that and how duped I felt. And it went so viral that the CEO of the company reached out to me, pulled the marketing off their stores and apologized.
--:-- Georgia Howe: That's incredible.
--:-- Vani Hari: And that was my first taste of activism and my first taste of, oh my gosh, my voice can make a difference. And it was probably when Chick-fil-A invited me to their headquarters after I wrote an article called Chemical Filet or Chick-fil-A. I showed the hundred ingredients that they have in their Chick-fil-A sandwich and how I thought they were healthier than going to McDonald's.
--:-- John Bickley: Yeah, that's a great point.
--:-- Vani Hari: But when I compared them to the McDonald's ingredients, they were virtually the same. And this really shocked people. I mean, it went so viral that the executives at Chick-fil-A invited me to their headquarters to consult on their menu items on how to make their ingredients better.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And that's when you decided to quit your job?
--:-- Vani Hari: Yeah, when I quit my job, I was not making a dime doing Food Babe. It was literally there as a passion project. So it was something that I had to really figure out. The beautiful thing that happened after I quit my job was I was able to spend 100% of my time researching the food industry.
--:-- John Bickley: And what was the first thing you did?
--:-- Vani Hari: I was an avid traveler. I loved to travel. It's been a passion of mine since I was a little girl. And whenever I would go to Europe or another country, I'd always feel better. I liked the food better. It tasted better. And I was like, what's going on here? Like, why is it so different?
--:-- Georgia Howe: And that's when you started comparing products in the US to products in other countries?
--:-- Vani Hari: Yeah, I started to compare products that we have here in the United States to products that they sell in other countries, but the exact same products. So like a Doritos package here in the United States versus a Doritos package in Europe. And I would compare the ingredients.
--:-- John Bickley: And what did you find?
--:-- Vani Hari: I found that in other countries, they're using better and safer ingredients. And while here, they're using man-made chemical additives. And that side-by-side comparison went so viral that it was an opportunity to finally say, you know what, we need to hold the food companies accountable for this.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And that's when you took on Kraft?
--:-- Vani Hari: Yeah, shortly after, I decided to take on one of the largest food companies in the world, which was Kraft at the time. And they were serving little children mac and cheese with artificial food dyes, yellow five and yellow six. While in Europe, they're using paprika and beta carotene.
--:-- John Bickley: Wow, that's a huge difference.
--:-- Vani Hari: And, you know, it was a viral petition. It was so exciting. For the first time we were on national TV, it gained a lot of steam, like 270,000 signatures very quickly. And on April 1st, it wasn't Happy Fool's Day for Kraft that day because I took the petition to their headquarters and I demanded a meeting and they sat down with me.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And what happened in that meeting?
--:-- Vani Hari: They really did. And I sat down and I looked them in the eye and I just said, why aren't you doing this for American children? You already have the formulation in other countries. Why are we getting the man-made additives that are linked to all of these health issues that we're experiencing. We have crazy chronic rates of disease for our kids, close to half of children on some kind of medication. What is going on here?
--:-- John Bickley: And what was their response?
--:-- Vani Hari: They looked at me and they said, we have to agree to disagree. And they dismissed me. And I said, you know what? I'm not gonna let up. I'm gonna keep leading the charge. I'm gonna keep educating the public. I'm gonna tell people the truth about these chemicals.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And within six or seven months, Kraft had to change their formulation.
--:-- Vani Hari: Yeah, within six or seven months, they had to change because what happened was we were able to change the marketplace. People went from Kraft macaroni and cheese to their competitor, Annie's, who didn't use artificial food dyes. And then General Mills saw an opportunity. We're going to buy Annie's for $800 million.
--:-- John Bickley: And that's when Kraft realized they had to change.
--:-- Vani Hari: Yeah, and they did, which was great. And the funniest part of it all, which just makes me laugh to this day, is whenever they told the press that they were making the change, they're like, it had nothing to do with the petition, right?
--:-- Georgia Howe: That's hilarious.
--:-- Vani Hari: So I took that momentum and I continued it and took on more giants. So that brings me to my next question. On your website, you currently have a petition going about Kellogg's. What are you pursuing there?
--:-- John Bickley: Yeah, can you tell us about that?
--:-- Vani Hari: Well, shortly after, you know, taking on Subway, I ended up taking on the beer industry. I took on Starbucks, you know, Starbucks removed caramel coloring level four from their drinks and posted their ingredients for the first time in history.
--:-- Georgia Howe: That's a great point.
--:-- Vani Hari: They were actually hiding their drink ingredients for many, many years from the public. But after I took all of those giants on, you know, I started to receive a lot of attacks and they try to take my character down and they try to do whatever they can to get me to stop.
--:-- John Bickley: Yeah, that's unfortunate.
--:-- Vani Hari: And it was very intense. And at the time I could say I was super kind of naive about what I was doing because I was like, wait a minute if I just tell the truth and they do the right thing and these companies change this is great for everybody right. But I didn't realize that there's some factory that makes azodicarbonamide and now they got to be shut down and people are losing their jobs and there's money lost by these companies that have to change their formulations and all of that.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And that's when you started the Kellogg's petition?
--:-- Vani Hari: Yeah, my daughter saw baby shark cereal at the grocery store. She was two at the time. And I had remembered that Kellogg's said that they were going to remove artificial food dyes. So I was like, oh, my gosh, let me check the ingredients. It's 2019 now. They said they would do it by 2018. It's got to be done by now. And this is a new product. So, of course, they've done it, right? They didn't.
--:-- John Bickley: And that's when you realized they were still using artificial food dyes.
--:-- Vani Hari: Yeah, they started creating new products and targeting the littlest modern children of today by using the most popular toddler song, Baby Shark. And now my daughter is interested in this product that they still are poisoning us with ingredients they don't use in other countries. In Europe, in Canada, in Australia, in India, Kellogg's doesn't use artificial food dyes. Here in the United States, they do.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And that's when you started the petition?
--:-- Vani Hari: Yeah, I was like, why isn't anybody in Washington or the press or anybody holding them accountable for this commitment they made? They made Worldwide Press when they made the commitment and got the praise from it. But no one's holding these companies accountable for their actions. Their shareholders aren't doing it. Like, what is happening here?
--:-- John Bickley: And what's the current status of the petition?
--:-- Vani Hari: So Jason got into the fight. He wrote a shareholder letter, sent it to Kellogg's and saying, you know, this is unacceptable. You must remove artificial food dyes. And they were going to have a meeting with us. But they actually reneged on the meeting because we wanted to bring some doctors to the table because they wanted to bring the Consumer Brands Association with them.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And what's the Consumer Brands Association?
--:-- Vani Hari: They're the biggest big food lobby group in Washington. They're going to do whatever they can to belittle you or to make you look like your pseudoscientist or your fear monger. And they will use whatever they can to kind of spin the situation against you.
--:-- John Bickley: Yeah, that's unfortunate.
--:-- Vani Hari: And so we're like, OK, if you're going to bring the Consumer Brands Association, a huge lobbying group with you, we'll bring our scientists with us that show that these artificial food dyes are causing harm to children. They didn't like that. And so they shut down the meeting.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And what's the next step?
--:-- Vani Hari: Once they did that, they left us no decision at that point. And it was like, how can we bring the most attention to this as possible? And when I was invited to be part of the Senate Roundtable with Senator Ron Johnson, I was able to finally discuss how American companies are using better, safer ingredients for other countries and not us.
--:-- John Bickley: And what did you learn from that experience?
--:-- Vani Hari: And I was able to show the examples, not with just Kellogg's, but so many other brands on how we are systematically being poisoned here in the United States because our FDA allows it to happen. They literally just said two weeks ago that they will not criticize the food industry. If they will not criticize the food industry, how can they hold them accountable?
--:-- Georgia Howe: And what's the motivation behind this?
--:-- Vani Hari: I think it's a couple things. So first, I think they're going to eventually change. I know they are. There's no way they're going to be able to be a viable company in the next 100 years with artificial food dyes. There's too much awareness happening. We have leadership at the highest levels bringing this awareness down.
--:-- John Bickley: Yeah, that's true.
--:-- Vani Hari: Every single mainstream news station is talking about these issues. It's absolutely incredible, the movement that has been created in the grassroots movement. We literally have unstoppable momentum. And so I know they're going to change. But the two reasons why they wouldn't change, well, that they are maybe putting their heads in the sand, is that number one, artificial food dyes are cheaper for them to buy because it's a petroleum-based product.
--:-- Georgia Howe: That's true.
--:-- Vani Hari: It doesn't go bad on the shelf. Whereas what they're using in Canada, carrot juice, blueberry juice, watermelon juice, it has a shelf life, right? It can break down faster. It's a real food product. So it's different, right? That's number one. Number two, they like the advantage of using artificial food dyes because in focus groups, they've found that kids will eat more of their product when it's brighter.
--:-- John Bickley: Wow, that's a sad truth.
--:-- Vani Hari: So they make more money. And that's the part that's sinister to me in the fact that we have the rising rates of childhood obesity and disease. We have 38% of preteens ages of 12 to 18 having prediabetes. It used to be zero, and now it's 38%. That is unacceptable to me.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And what about the media? It seems like some of the big media outlets are taking the side of big food.
--:-- Vani Hari: Yeah, they 100% have a financial stake in the food industry. I mean, I'm just thinking about the recent New York Times piece that said that, you know, what if ultra processed foods aren't that bad? That one specifically was written by someone who works for like, you know, has consulted with Beyond Meat, one of the most processed man-made plant-based meats that I think is complete processed garbage.
--:-- John Bickley: Yeah, that's a great point.
--:-- Vani Hari: We should be looking at how do we deploy technology so that we can do more regenerative farming and so that we can get people to eat more real food and animals, not like man-made chemicals in a laboratory to have like fake blood in it.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And what are some actionable steps that we can take to make a change?
--:-- Vani Hari: Well, yeah, I mean, I just said one. First of all, get the marketing towards little children, you know, junk food marketing from little children out of the media. You know, there's over 10,000 food additives approved for use in the United States. Europe only allows four. Simple, go down to that number. That would make a fundamental impact on the quality of our food.
--:-- John Bickley: That's a great point.
--:-- Vani Hari: I say instead of subsidies to big ag for GMOs and factory farms, we should subsidize regenerative farming, which will dramatically reduce the amount of pesticides being used on our food. This will help our farmers grow a much more wide variety of crops, moving away from ultra-processed foods that are made with corn and soybeans and sugar, sugar beets.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And what about the FDA? Do you think they're doing enough to regulate the food industry?
--:-- Vani Hari: We've got to root out the corruption from our health agencies. We've got to stop the conflicts of interest with big food and pharma and chemical corporations. We have close to 50% of the funding of the FDA coming from industry, and they say they're not going to criticize the food industry. So it's like, even if you just require the warning labels that they require in Europe on artificial food dyes, so American parents could know the harms of choosing that product and eating that ingredient, that will force the food companies to remove artificial food dyes.
--:-- John Bickley: And what do you think about RFK Jr. being nominated for Secretary of Health and Human Services?
--:-- Vani Hari: I think he's the guy who can make this happen. Just looking at RFK Jr.'s track record, how he won a historic 2.2 billion case against Monsanto and Roundup Wheat Killer, and it showed that it's strongly linked to cancer. I think seeing his determination, he's so incredibly passionate about this subject. And then when it comes to Dr. Marty McCary, he's absolutely incredible. I mean, I've read his books. He understands how corrupt these institutions have been. And he also understands looking at root cause analysis from a functional medicine perspective.
--:-- Georgia Howe: And what's your message to our listeners?
--:-- Vani Hari: I would much rather have someone in that position that gets these issues fundamentally. And by the way, publicly supported the fact that he's not buying Kellogg's because of this situation as well. I mean, I was floored. I was like, yes, thank you, doctor. And it's incredible. So he gets it. He understands this. These are simple changes we could make today that if our governments, leaders and agencies put the hatred for each other away and like just think about American children and think about how many people are on Adderall to help these issues, how fundamentally they can change American children and help improve their lives and their teachers' lives and their parents' lives.
--:-- Georgia Howe: Vani, thank you so much for coming on.
--:-- Vani Hari: Thank you for having me.
--:-- John Bickley: And that was Vani Hari, best-selling author, activist, and the creator of the Food Babe blog.
