--:-- [Upbeat music fades out]
--:-- John Bickley: One of the most controversial figures in the January 6th riot is sentenced by a judge in D.C. What sentence did Ray Epps receive and how does it compare to other J6 defendants?
--:-- Georgia Howe: I'm Daily Wire, Editor-in-Chief John Bickley with Georgia Howe. It's Wednesday, January 10th, and this is Morning Wire.
--:-- John Bickley: Donald Trump and his attorneys tried to convince a court Tuesday that he deserves immunity from charges related to election interference. What's his argument and will the court buy it?
--:-- John Bickley: It's not just the difficulty of his legal theory because it's untested. The other problem he has is the Supreme Court does not want to wade into the politics of the 2024 election.
--:-- John Bickley: And after intense backlash, the Biden administration reverses its decision to remove a statue of Pennsylvania founder William Penn.
--:-- Georgia Howe: I think that these attempts to be inclusive should not include removing someone from that story.
--:-- John Bickley: Thanks for waking up with Morning Wire. Stay tuned. We have the news you need to know.
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--:-- John Bickley: Controversial January 6th figure Ray Epps was sentenced Tuesday for his participation in the 2021 Capitol riot and notably avoided jail time.
--:-- Georgia Howe: Here to discuss is Daily Wire reporter Amanda Prestigiacomo.
--:-- Amanda Prestigiacomo: Hey, John. So a lot of eyes on the sentencing here. First, what was Epps hit with and what was recommended?
--:-- John Bickley: Hey, Amanda. So Epps was sentenced to one-year probation with no travel restrictions, 100 hours of community service, and a $500 restitution payment. And again, as Georgia mentioned, no jail time.
--:-- Amanda Prestigiacomo: Department of Justice prosecutors were seeking a six-month sentence, one year of supervised released and again that $500 restitution payment. And this was all recommended after Epps struck a deal with the DOJ back in September. He pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor charge of disorderly or disruptive conduct in a restricted building or grounds.
--:-- Amanda Prestigiacomo: According to reporting from inside the courtroom on Tuesday and a court filing from prosecutors, the government stressed that Epps accepted responsibility for his crime, tried to de-escalate conflicts between rioters and police officers and also cooperated with the FBI and Congress.
--:-- Amanda Prestigiacomo: Epps told the judge on Tuesday that he blamed Fox News personalities and what he called the Trump cult for the breach. And his lawyers and the government agreed Epps is a victim of widespread conspiracy theories.
--:-- Amanda Prestigiacomo: To that point, Epps has been a key figure and has sparked a lot of questions and accusations about his alleged involvement with the federal government in connection to J6, not just from the public, but also from lawmakers.
--:-- Amanda Prestigiacomo: Yeah, that's largely because Epps is on video egging on Trump supporters to go inside the Capitol numerous times, both on the day of the breach and the day before. He's also present at the very first breach of Capitol grounds.
--:-- Amanda Prestigiacomo: Epps was initially on the FBI's J6 wanted list, but was then suddenly dropped. He claimed in a 60 Minutes interview that this was because he called the feds and cooperated with them as soon as he heard he was wanted.
--:-- Amanda Prestigiacomo: But we have to remember at the same time the feds were arresting grandmothers for merely walking into the Capitol So the sudden drop of Epps from FBI posters did spark questions
--:-- Amanda Prestigiacomo: And it would be literally years later that the DOJ would pursue Epps for his J6 involvement. In the meantime, video footage of him telling Trump supporters to go inside the Capitol went viral.
--:-- Amanda Prestigiacomo: As soon as our president is not speaking, we are going to the Capitol where our problems are. It's that direction. We spread the word.
--:-- Amanda Prestigiacomo: In another instance on January 5th, Trump supporters actually accused Epps of being a Fed. Tomorrow, we need to go into the Capitol. Into the Capitol. What? No! No! No! Peacefully! Fed! Fed! Fed! Fed! Fed! Fed!
--:-- Amanda Prestigiacomo: Epps also acknowledged to a congressional committee that he texted his nephew soon after the breach to boast that he, quote, orchestrated it.
--:-- Amanda Prestigiacomo: The text reads, I was in front with a few others. I also orchestrated it. He told the committee that he just wrote that out of pride and had chosen the wrong words, that he meant he orchestrated the protest.
--:-- Amanda Prestigiacomo: He also insisted that he was not acting as a government informant or agent that day, and the feds have backed up his claim that he didn't work for them.
--:-- Amanda Prestigiacomo: Questions concerning the government's treatment of Epps made its way to Congress numerous times. In one instance over the summer, Republican Rep Troy Nels pressed FBI Director Christopher Wray about why Epps had not been arrested at that point.
--:-- [Audio clip of Rep. Troy Nels and FBI Director Christopher Wray]
--:-- Amanda Prestigiacomo: As for Epps, he said that he's being used as a scapegoat here for people who are responsible for the breach, and that he actually tried to talk people down who started to get too out of hand.
--:-- Amanda Prestigiacomo: He's even filed defamation suits against some outlets. Here he is last year blaming Fox News and some Republican lawmakers.
--:-- Amanda Prestigiacomo: If you look at it, Fox News, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Ted Cruz, Gates, they're all telling us before this thing that it was stolen. So you tell me, who has more impact on people, them or me?
--:-- John Bickley: So what sort of reaction have we seen so far over the Senate?
--:-- Amanda Prestigiacomo: Well, if you think the treatment of Epps from the federal government has been odd, him receiving no jail time is probably not going to make those questions go away.
--:-- Amanda Prestigiacomo: Julie Kelly, who's been reporting on these J6 cases from the start, she said she scanned the DOJ's list of sentences for J6ers and most of the more than 1,000 convictions resulted in some amount of jail time followed by a period of supervised release.
--:-- Amanda Prestigiacomo: And if there was only probation, that was usually for two to three years. She also said the real outrage here is that Epps wasn't charged with more serious offenses to begin with.
--:-- John Bickley: Fascinating and controversial case. Amanda, thanks for reporting.
--:-- Amanda Prestigiacomo: You're welcome.
--:-- John Bickley: Former President Trump appeared in a federal appeals courtroom yesterday to argue for immunity related to January 6 charges.
--:-- Georgia Howe: Joining us to discuss is former federal prosecutor Andy McCarthy.
--:-- Andy McCarthy: Oh, it's my pleasure. Now, Trump was present in an appeals court yesterday. This is just one of many legal efforts he's fielding.
--:-- Andy McCarthy: Can you lay out a little of what's happening in this case?
--:-- Andy McCarthy: Yes, Former President Trump claims that he is immune from prosecution for his official acts or acts within the ambit of his authority as president.
--:-- Andy McCarthy: And this is a litigation that arises at the moment out of his prosecution in Washington by the Biden Justice Department Special Counsel Jack Smith on the case arising out of the events leading up to the Capitol riot, although importantly, the former president's not charged with any violent crime related to the riot.
--:-- Andy McCarthy: So his position is that prosecutors have no power under the Constitution to review, much less prosecute, acts that arise out of the president's performance of his official responsibilities.
--:-- Andy McCarthy: And the way I've interpreted this argument in writing about it is that the Constitution's main check on the abuse of power by executive officials up to and including the president is impeachment and removal, not criminal prosecution.
--:-- Andy McCarthy: So that's essentially the point he's trying to make.
--:-- Andy McCarthy: So what is Trump hoping for when it comes to the outcome of this hearing?
--:-- Andy McCarthy: Well, Trump's main hope is that because there is a doctrine of law arising out of an early 1980s case that involved former President Nixon, there's a doctrine of law that says presidents are immune from civil lawsuits.
--:-- Andy McCarthy: What Trump's argument is, and I think this is his strongest argument, is that the incentives for a criminal lawsuit would be the same as for a civil lawsuit.
--:-- Andy McCarthy: That is to say, if a president thought that he was going to be subject to prosecution, if his political rivals were to take office and then prosecute him over policy disputes, he would have the same fear of acting, the same paralysis as if he were worried about civil liability.
--:-- Andy McCarthy: And what Trump argues is that since the Supreme Court has never resolved this question of whether a president is subject to criminal liability as opposed to the civil liability that was at stake in the Nixon case, what they should do is basically have the same rationale with respect to criminal prosecution as civil prosecution and grant him immunity from it.
--:-- Andy McCarthy: And just your two cents on this, do you think it's an uphill battle for him or do you think he has a shot?
--:-- Andy McCarthy: I think it's a low-percentage shot and it's important to note that the Supreme Court's the only court in the federal system that has complete control over its own docket.
--:-- Andy McCarthy: The Supreme Court doesn't have to take a case if it doesn't think the time is right or for whatever reason.
--:-- Andy McCarthy: And I say that because what I think is going to happen here is the D.C. Circuit will rule against Trump then Trump will try to appeal to the Supreme Court.
--:-- Andy McCarthy: And what the Supreme Court will say is we don't need to take this case at this time. Trump can go to trial.
--:-- Andy McCarthy: If he's convicted at the end of a criminal trial, then he'll get an appeal. And at that point, you know, he can raise whatever issues he wants to raise.
--:-- Andy McCarthy: And if it's appropriate to deal with immunity, we can deal with it then.
--:-- John Bickley: That was former federal prosecutor Andy McCarthy.
--:-- John Bickley: The Biden administration reversed a decision this week to remove a historic statue of William Penn, the founder of Pennsylvania, amid fierce backlash.
--:-- Georgia Howe: An ex by the Park Service announcing the plan was met with quite a bit of anger and Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro posted Monday that the decision has now been reversed.
--:-- John Bickley: Here to discuss is Daily Wire contributor David Marcus.
--:-- David Marcus: Hey, John. First, what was the justification given for taking down Penn Statue and why was this decision changed?
--:-- John Bickley: This was part of what the National Park Service calls a rehabilitation of the welcome park in the city of Brotherly Love.
--:-- David Marcus: It was meant to, quote, provide a more welcoming, accurate, and inclusive experience for visitors, end quote.
--:-- David Marcus: It's not entirely clear what, if anything, is unwelcoming about the famous Quaker William Penn, who by the standards of his time was a champion of religious freedom.
--:-- David Marcus: So after the backlash on X, as well as myriad news stories about the plan, Shapiro reached out to the Biden administration and basically saved the statue.
--:-- David Marcus: So this really is a win for those who are trying to protect historical monuments from progressives who are trying to take them down.
--:-- John Bickley: Yeah. Yeah. Now, presumably the Park Service will still be able to add the new elements commemorating Native Americans that they had planned to do.
--:-- David Marcus: Do we know why that was not viewed as sufficient by the Park Service to begin with?
--:-- John Bickley: No. And this is a question that comes up very often around the issue of removing historical statues.
--:-- David Marcus: Some critics argue that it is, in fact, punitive and meant to provoke a reaction from those who do not accept a progressive lens of American history.
--:-- David Marcus: We saw this back in 2020 in South Philadelphia when an attempt was made to take down the statue of Christopher Columbus in that Italian neighborhood.
--:-- David Marcus: That effort led to men with baseball bats coming out to protect the statue, which surprised nobody who is familiar with South Philly.
--:-- David Marcus: It seemed unlikely that groups of Quakers would show up with baseball bats to defend the Penn statue, committed as they are to nonviolence.
--:-- David Marcus: And, well, now they won't have to. Quakers with baseball bats. I'm seeing a Babylon Bee sketch here.
--:-- John Bickley: Now, we've seen many statues come down in the past few years, but those have generally been local decisions.
--:-- David Marcus: How does the fact that the federal government was the entity planning on taking this down make this different?
--:-- John Bickley: It's a very big difference. Generally, this kind of thing has been done by progressive city councils or mayors.
--:-- David Marcus: And in those cases, there's at least a plausible argument that the local citizens chose them to make these calls.
--:-- David Marcus: It's a stretch to imagine anyone voted for Joe Biden to take down statues.
--:-- David Marcus: And this is his Department of the Interior. So it really nationalized a question that had been very local before.
--:-- John Bickley: That's likely why we saw this decision changed in one day so that Biden would never really have to address it.
--:-- David Marcus: Yeah. Given the Biden administration's direct involvement here, though, could we see the fate of historical statues become a presidential campaign issue even with this reversal?
--:-- John Bickley: It certainly opens the door for that.
--:-- John Bickley: One has to ask who in the administration ever thought this was a good idea.
--:-- David Marcus: And it's something that the Trump campaign, should he be the nominee, would likely welcome.
--:-- John Bickley: Trump warned back in 2017 that taking down Confederate statues would be a slippery slope, specifically warning that slave owners Thomas Jefferson and George Washington could be next.
--:-- David Marcus: He was mocked at the time by the left, but not only were Jefferson and Washington in fact next, but within three years, we saw statues of Abraham Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt coming down.
--:-- David Marcus: Then they came after William Penn, who died almost 150 years before the Civil War.
--:-- John Bickley: This is potentially another ideological and political needle that the incumbent president is going to have to very carefully thread.
--:-- John Bickley: And that is exactly what we saw his administration do by backing down this week.
--:-- David Marcus: Yeah, backing down so quickly. Right away.
--:-- John Bickley: Dave, thanks for joining us.
--:-- David Marcus: Thanks for having me.
--:-- John Bickley: That's all the time we've got this morning. Thanks for waking up with us. We'll be back later this afternoon with more news you need to know.
