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--:-- Host (Georgia Howe): Since bursting onto the social media scene five years ago, TikTok has become one of the most popular apps in the world, especially among young people. But critics warn it poses unique security and mental health risks, so much so a number of nations have banned it. It's even been described as a weapon by software experts. For this episode of Morning Wire, Daily Wire culture reporter Megan Basham takes us on a deep dive of TikTok's rise and explains why national security experts are raising the alarm.
--:-- Host (Georgia Howe): Thanks for waking up with us. It's Sunday, August 7th, and this is your Sunday edition of Morning Wire. One of the best things you can do to prepare for the unknown is to have a will in place. A will is about protecting your loved ones from the really hard decisions they'll face if something happens to you. If you're a parent, a will gives you the power to decide who will raise your kids should something happen to you and your spouse. Do yourself a favor. Go to EpicWill.com and use promo code WIRE to save 10% on Epic Will's complete will package. It's incredibly easy and well worth $119 to secure your family's future. Go to EpicWill.com and use promo code WIRE today.
--:-- Host (Georgia Howe): So Megan, first off, set the table for us. Can you first start by giving us some quick historical background on TikTok and where its popularity is right now relative to other social media giants?
--:-- Megan Basham: Yeah, good morning, Georgia. Absolutely. So the Chinese company ByteDance first launched TikTok on the international stage in 2017. And it was kind of like Vine, if you happen to remember that app, in that it allowed you to share short videos. So in this case, they were up to 15 seconds long. And that wasn't exactly groundbreaking. But then what happened is in 2018, it merged with another Chinese app called Musical.ly.
--:-- Megan Basham: Well, with that Musical.ly edition, users were then able to access a database of songs, some sound effects, sound bites, things like that. And they could use them for lip syncing or background music or to act out movie scenes. So just a lot of different possibilities. Well, the other feature that Merger created was collaboration. Users could then add on to someone else's video by replying to it or creating split screen duets or conversations. So really what you had was that people were able to use it in these incredibly creative, interactive ways.
--:-- Megan Basham: Just one of my favorite examples of this was last year when dozens of people added to a video of this young Scotsman singing a 19th century sea shanty. So dozens of talented singers, musicians from all over the world started adding to it and they created something completely original. So regular listeners will know I'm not a fan of TikTok, but that was cool.
--:-- Host (Georgia Howe): Exactly, right? It was very cool. Well, at that point, a few celebrities like Jimmy Fallon, skateboarder Tony Hawk, they joined after that Musical.ly merger, and they also boosted TikTok's profile. And from there, what you had was that it exploded in popularity. It now has a billion users and has been the most downloaded social media app for the last couple of years. It's even now the most visited site on Google.
--:-- Megan Basham: So how is that affecting other social media platforms? Well, it definitely taking a bite out of their business You had Facebook for the first time ever last week announced that they had a revenue decline Another first for Facebook this last quarter a loss in users Now we covered here before that Twitter is experiencing some serious troubles as well, but you could attribute that to some of the drama playing out in the media with Elon Musk.
--:-- Megan Basham: Snapchat, however, isn't having any Elon Musk drama, and they're also having massive financial losses. So much so you're actually hearing it called a cash bonfire. So when you look at that, Facebook and Instagram still have more users than TikTok, though TikTok has passed up Snapchat and Twitter, and it's growing at a rapacious rate. So the feeling is that those users are migrating over to TikTok, and that's causing apps like Facebook and Instagram to reorient their algorithms and user experiences so that they look more like TikTok to hopefully lure people back.
--:-- Megan Basham: And I think that a lot of national security experts are hoping that Mark Zuckerberg will actually be successful at that. Because as creative as TikTok can be, its presence on American devices is posing some tremendous risks. Right. So let's talk about that. I assume you're talking about data collection.
--:-- Megan Basham: Yes, I am talking about data collection, but that isn't actually the only issue we're looking at. It is, however, a good place to start. So TikTok is capable of capturing face, finger, voice prints, search and browsing history, keystroke pattern biometrics. Its artificial intelligence is even able to read your facial expressions and detect your emotions, things you like, things you don't like.
--:-- Megan Basham: Now, we know that this kind of stuff isn't exactly new for big tech, but what makes it much worse in this case is that TikTok is owned by a Chinese company, and that means it can be accessed by the Chinese communist government. Now, ByteDance has tried to claim that they've taken steps to protect that data, including things like moving the servers to Texas to be housed by an American company, Oracle.
--:-- Megan Basham: But thanks to some of these leaks that were just reported on by BuzzFeed recently, we now know that that has not stopped China from accessing the data. They built the system. They know how to leave backdoor entries they can get in. So I spoke with Brendan Carr, Federal Communications Commissioner, and he has been sounding the alarm about TikTok everywhere he can.
--:-- Megan Basham: They had been asked point blank, under Oak, is any of this data being accessed in China? And they gave a range of answers from, well, the data doesn't even exist in China to we don't share it with China. But those leaked internal communications from BuzzFeed News, again, show that everything is seen in China. And Carr seemed to feel that American ByteDance executives have been intentionally trying to skirt that question of TikTok's data security.
--:-- Megan Basham: Whenever they were asked, they said, well, we don't share it with the government, which is not the same thing as it being accessed from inside China or it's stored here in the U.S. And so this history of misrepresentation coupled with the fact that it's data being accessed from inside China is a problem.
--:-- Megan Basham: We just had a week or so ago, FBI Director Chris Wray stand next to his MI5 counterpart and say that China is our greatest long-term national security threat, that they're going to use every tool at their disposal to achieve their ends. And I would submit that one of the tools at their disposal is this massive amount of personal, sensitive, non-public data that it appears they've been getting access to through the TikTok system.
--:-- Megan Basham: Okay, so how would China use all of that data, though? Well, there are pretty limitless applications, but just to give you a few examples, the U.S. military has banned TikTok from government-issued devices, but it hasn't done so for personal devices. So what this means is that the app can still be transmitting soldiers' location data, video from inside the barracks, military equipment, military maneuvers, all of that kind of thing.
--:-- Megan Basham: And it's been caught running in the background and collecting data even when the app isn't open. So then let's go back to that artificial intelligence question that, you know, reads your emotions as you're watching these videos. It's picking up how you're reacting. Do you like something? Do you not like something? That may not seem that scary until you start to think okay if you China how might they be using this information
--:-- Megan Basham: Well one way they could use it is to aid both government and corporate espionage That's the kind of intel about US leaders that could be used by CCP agents to cozy up to them, to forge relationships with targets by pretending that they have these shared interests. And it was because of risks like these that India joined a number of Middle Eastern nations in actually banning TikTok in 2020.
--:-- Megan Basham: And then on August 3rd, just a few days ago, British Parliament announced that they had deleted a TikTok account that was part of a pilot program to reach young voters. So members of Parliament said that they had not been consulted on the program and were, quote, surprised and disappointed to discover its existence, given all these concerns that data could be transferred to China.
--:-- Megan Basham: Okay, but you also mentioned that it's more than just data collection. What else is going on with TikTok? Right, it's not. What China is collecting is really only one side of the coin. The other side is what they're disseminating. So just last week, ex-TikTok employees came forward to say that a now defunct news app on the platform called Top Buzz had been forwarding pro-China propaganda to millions of American accounts.
--:-- Megan Basham: There were things like videos talking about how wonderful it is to travel to China. There was a businessman sharing what a great decision it was to base his startup in China. And these former employees said they would pin these videos to the top of the homepage on the app. And then there's also the kind of information that the app prioritizes. Now, for younger people in that 13 to 24-year-old age range, TikTok is actually now the number one place they search for information. They use it more than Google.
--:-- Megan Basham: So imagine that child goes to TikTok to research Tiananmen Square or Hong Kong for a school project. There's a good chance the information that's going to be returned to that child will have been approved by the CCP. And on the same subject of what they're pushing, there's also some question of whether China could manipulate algorithms to intentionally push harmful videos that drive social disorder in Western countries. Think videos encouraging eating disorders, dangerous challenges, highly sexualized content, things like that.
--:-- Megan Basham: Now, you're saying that TikTok's algorithm promotes harmful content. Are Chinese kids also seeing that same content? No, actually, they're not. There is fairly strong evidence that users in China are seeing much more wholesome content than kids in the West are seeing. And that that's intentional.
--:-- Megan Basham: So I talked to Nicholas Shailon, former chief software officer for the Air Force, about this. And he's called TikTok a weapons system for China. In fact, his resignation from the Department of Defense was in part motivated by his frustration at the administration's inaction on TikTok. And he pointed out to me that the version of TikTok they have in China, which is an app called Doyin, does not actually have the same kind of material on it that we have on American TikTok.
--:-- Megan Basham: TikTok is designed to be pushing very specific content outside of China, right? The Douyin version in China is also designed to promote educational content and also they're designed to effectively limit the damages created by social media companies and apps where they limit the use of the application, right? You don't see Facebook in the U.S. and Facebook in the rest of the world. And that's kind of how it's designed.
--:-- Megan Basham: It's not only really paying attention to the damages created by social media applications to younger generations, but also its ability to push very specific targeted content based on what's resonating with people, but also based on what kind of agenda the Chinese Communist Party is trying to push internationally. That's also a great ability for China to control the narrative. So, again, what they have on the Chinese equivalent of the platform is positive education videos. Nobody's twerking on TikTok in China.
--:-- Megan Basham: So the big question here is, what are leaders in DC doing about this Yeah that is the big question And the answer right now is not nearly enough unfortunately I asked Carr why the Biden administration has been so slow to act given how well documented this threat is.
--:-- Megan Basham: Here's what he said. I think there's a couple reasons. First and foremost, when the concerns were originally raised about TikTok, they were raised by President Trump near the end of his administration. And like all things in the Trump era, if President Trump was for it, you instinctively had a lot of people that, without thinking about the issue, were opposed to it.
--:-- Megan Basham: And so I think that this TikTok issue initially in people's minds crystallized as, well, Trump wants to ban TikTok, therefore TikTok must be actually a good thing. And that's kind of where the issue sat. President Biden came in and revoked one of Trump's executive orders and then started a longer-term review. It's just been very slow going, which I I think it's consistent with a lot of this administration's approach to China.
--:-- Megan Basham: And as for Congress, Shailon noted that he just doesn't think the knowledge base is there for them to really understand the depth of the security risk. Now, what about trying to address it through the private sector? Yeah, that's a good question. And both men have tried to motivate American businesses to take some action, and they're both not having much luck.
--:-- Megan Basham: Here's Carr talking about his efforts there. I personally wrote letters to Google and Apple and said, whatever you think of the national security implications, your app store policies provide that when data is flowing to places that hasn't been disclosed to users, that you have a history of booting apps from the app store for that basis.
--:-- Megan Basham: For instance, where an app ended up sending data to a server in China and that wasn't disclosed, they removed that app from the app store and there's been other surreptitious data flows, they've taken action. And so my view for Apple and Google is, you know, if you want to put aside the national security issues, then just apply your policies to surreptitious data flows and kick them out.
--:-- Megan Basham: We also saw Apple and Google move very quickly to remove Parler from their app stores when they determined it was in the nation's best interest. But so far, they've ignored Carr's request regarding TikTok. And Shailon, too, has met a brick wall when he's tried to alert the business community.
--:-- Megan Basham: So he was scheduled to talk to the Chamber of Commerce. That's the biggest lobbying group for American business. But the night before his appearance, he went on Fox News to discuss some of the dangers of TikTok. And his talk with the chamber was abruptly canceled.
--:-- Megan Basham: Here's a little bit of my interview with him about that. I was supposed to be talking to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce about AI. The day after the Fox News event, at the very last minute, they decided to replace me by somebody else, which never happened before. right after my TikTok segment, literally 12 hours after.
--:-- Megan Basham: So clearly that tells you that either China or TikTok have a pretty big sway, whether in lobbying in D.C. But at the very least, they have a lot of power they should not have in the United States. So that's pretty scary. Did they give you a reason for why they replaced you?
--:-- Megan Basham: Well, they were pretty stupid because they said that they were running out of time. So they had to remove me because I was the last speaker. but then they forgot to remove me from the email chain when they emailed that there would be someone else replacing me.
--:-- Megan Basham: So then I saw the schedule and the agenda and my time slot was now replaced by somebody else. So it wasn't a matter of running out of time. So big business can make a lot of money with TikTok. Advertising there allows them to reach a large audience of that young demographic. It's pretty valuable to some businesses.
--:-- Megan Basham: So Shailon suspects that may have actually played a role in the decision to cancel him. That said, we are seeing a little bit of bipartisan movement in the Senate. A few weeks ago, Republican Marco Rubio and Democrat Mark Warner formally asked the Federal Trade Commission to investigate TikTok. So hopefully they'll get some answers pretty quickly. Right. I think that would be in the best interest of every American.
--:-- Host (Georgia Howe): Megan, thanks so much for reporting. Yep, absolutely. That was Daily Wire culture reporter Megan Basham. And this has been a Sunday edition of Morning Wire.
