Team Ballmer vs. Team Sh*tting Bricks: An Argument with Mark Cuban

Pablo Torre: Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is. If I'm wrong on this and you're right, then Steve is not as smart as I think he is. Right after this ad.

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Pablo Torre: There he is. What's up, Paul?

Mark Cuban: Sorry I don't have a great image here. Just like last second. This is, by the way, we're recording now. Are you good? We're good to just get it?

Pablo Torre: Okay, amazing. Yep, rock and roll. Thank you for doing this. It's rare that a Twitter interaction results in something like hopefully dialogue.

Mark Cuban: Yeah, I'm good for dialogue. I don't have a dog in the hunt, right? From a Mavs perspective, I hope they're cheating. I mean, there's no reason for me to try to defend Steve Ballmer other than for what I think is right.

Pablo Torre: What's your relationship like with Steve Ballmer?

Mark Cuban: Fine. I mean, we get along. Nothing special, nothing over the top, nothing like, hey, we do tons of trade. He's my best friend as an owner. Nothing like that at all.

Pablo Torre: Yeah. Have you talked to him about this reporting today?

Mark Cuban: No, not at all. No.

Pablo Torre: So I just got to jump in here for a second and interrupt Mark Cuban, the former majority owner of the Dallas Mavericks and longtime Shark from Shark Tank, to say that if you missed our last episode here, Pablo Torre finds out the reporting that we're both talking about at the moment has to do with this.

[Audio clip plays] Speaker 1: Have y'all seen this information about Kawhi? Shout out to Pablo Torre, man. Crazy journalism for my boy, man. He dropped a bomb this morning. Speaker 2: Major drama and serious allegations surrounding the LA Clippers. Clippers superstar Kawhi Leonard signed a $28 million endorsement deal with an environmental startup funded by Clippers owner Steve Ballmer. Speaker 3: Now, according to an investigation by Pablo Torre finds out, former employees are now raising concerns that Bomber's $50 million personal investment in the company, currently under federal investigation for fraud, went on a round trip to power Leonard's no-show job and skirt NBA rules. Speaker 4: I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, and I want to put that out on Front Street. And Steve Bomber is one of my favorite owners in the league. I just think that he's a good man. But that doesn't mean this doesn't warrant an investigation. [End audio clip]

Pablo Torre: I should say also here that on Wednesday, the NBA announced, quote, "We are aware of this morning's media report regarding the L.A. Clippers and are commencing an investigation." End quote. And in fairness and to be clear, the Clippers stand by their initial statement to Pablo Torre finds out that neither Steve Ballmer nor the Clippers circumvented the salary cap, which Commissioner Adam Silver, by the way, reportedly does see as a cardinal sin. Cap circumvention.

In fact, the last big time that an NBA team officially got caught with their hands in the cap circumvention cookie jar was about 25 years ago. Timberwolves owner Glenn Taylor and general manager Kevin McHale had secretly promised forward Joe Smith that if he signed a below market free agent deal, he would eventually sign a seven year, $86 million contract. Commissioner David Stern, in response, decided to strip Minnesota of five first-round draft picks and also fine the team $3.5 million and also effectively suspend both the owner and the GM for the whole season.

But it's all to say that the NBA says that they really, really, really care about cap circumvention. So much so that one current NBA general manager texted me after seeing my above-mentioned Twitter interaction, my Wednesday evening beef with Mark Cuban, the following, quote, "I don't see any way the NBA lets Cuban talk to you." And yet.

Mark Cuban: My name is Mark Cuban, and I live in Dallas, Texas, and I'm co-founder of CostPlusDrugs.com.

Pablo Torre: So look, I got about a zillion things that I wanted to ask Mark Cuban about one-on-one, including about his own oversight of his own NBA team, the Dallas Mavericks, as well as some of the other scandals therein. But the focus of our specific argument here concerned my own reporting into the secret world of billionaires and sports ownership, as well as oversight and due diligence by very smart and very rich figures like Mark Cuban and Steve Ballmer. And in particular, the Clippers' relationship with a company named Aspiration.

So when I saw this, when I saw your report, right, I went up and I just searched in my email to see if they had ever sent me anything because I figured if they're trying to pitch Steve Ballmer, they're probably trying to pitch me. So they did. And in March of 2020, they sent me an email asking if I wanted to get involved.

Pablo Torre: Who was the guy who sent the email to you?

Mark Cuban: Let me find it. Hold on. Yeah. Let's see. Aspirate. [Mark searches through his phone] 326, 2020. From Joe Sandberg with CC to Andre Cherney. "Mark, I co-founded Aspiration, and the Aspiration team wants to move on this with you. I've copied my co-founder. Aspiration has 1.8 million users, raised 200 million of VC, and is focused on delivering socially conscious financial services to everyday Americans. Would you like to connect by phone so we can operationalize ASAP?"

First, that's really aggressive. I mean, it was like the assumption closed, didn't even ask questions.

Pablo Torre: Oh, because this was during right when the pandemic hit and everything had just shut down, right? And people were trying to get money and we were talking about making money available. And so this guy's coming in saying, we can do it. We're a bank.

Mark Cuban: And I said, well, are you even a real bank? I appreciate your desire to help. And he said, "No worries. Building on my prior response, we have a bank partner that is ready to go on this. We have been finalizing a product with them. We could literally do 1 million of these $1,200 loans." First of all, a company that I've never heard of, ready to do over a billion dollars in loans. That was a red flag. And that was the end of it. I never followed up with those guys. And I don't have anything else from any of them going forward.

Pablo Torre: It's just fascinating to know that he was sniffing around the NBA. Obviously, this is Joe Samberg, by the way, who, August 21st, 2025, this is the DOJ's press release. The headline is, "Aspiration Partners co-founder charged and agrees to plead guilty to a $248 million scheme to defraud investors and lenders." And there's yet more, by the way, in his file with the Justice Department. The SEC is also now investigating him. All of this stuff is part of my fascination with the story.

I want to get, though, to why we are doing this, because I don't expect everybody to be on Twitter following both of us. They're probably following you. What a disaster it would be for their mental health if they were following our back and forth. But the reason that I reached out to you so explicitly was you do begin your post by saying, "I'm on Team Balmer, period." And I'll just read you the quote and then you can help explain what it is that you mean.

He wrote, "As much as I wish they circumvented the salary cap, first, Steve isn't that dumb. If he did try to feed KL money, Kawhi Leonard money, knowing what was at stake for him personally and his team, do you think he would let the company go bankrupt? Knowing all creditors would be visible to the world. They got scammed by aspiration along with many others, crimes for which they pleaded guilty last week. Scammers do scammy things. They did a $300 million sponsorship deal with the Clippers in 2021. That's a huge deal. Huge in all caps. The better the team does, the more value the sponsorship has. It actually makes perfect sense that if they stole money from investors and want the Clippers to succeed, why not give stolen money to help keep their best player?"

And then the last graph, Mark, "It's sad that Pablo Torre didn't take the time to find out how these scammers pulled off their scam. The idea that the default is Bomber is the bad guy is going to backfire on him, period."

Mark Cuban: Yeah. So the reason I'm on Team Balmer is when I go back and I looked, the deal was in 2021 before their arena opened, right when Kawhi signed their new contract and it's $300 million. When you get a deal of that size with a new category sponsor, the NBA has to approve it. So first of all, the NBA had to have looked into this. But that wasn't the overwhelming thing. Then they defaulted on that deal. They stopped doing it and Ballmer made an announcement at some point in time saying that the deal was not moving forward. And this was several years ago.

But that wasn't really the trigger for Team Ballmer. The trigger for Team Ballmer was in January of 2024 when it was either the SEC or CFTC said that they were under investigation. So the minute aspiration was under investigation, I guarantee you, in the mortal words of Charles Barkley, I guarantee it that the NBA took a hard look at it. And not only that, that Balmer, if he did something illicit and under the table and tried to work around the salary cap, then he's got to be s***ing bricks. Because at that point in time, he's the dumbest human being on the planet because he trusted these scammers to do something he knew was against all NBA rules.

A, I just don't see that happening. B, the NBA would have found it easily. Three, and this alludes to the Steve Ballmer can't be that dumb thing. I mean, I guess I've been scammed. Everybody's scammable. But in order for this to work, in my opinion, he has to trust that whole company. And at that point in time, he trusted them enough to give them an investment at some level. But I don't see how he would trust that company to keep probably his darkest secret as an NBA owner so that it wouldn't get out. I just don't see in any way, shape or form that all those things could happen.

Pablo Torre: It's fascinating to probe the mind of a former NBA owner about the logic, right?

Mark Cuban: I still want 27%, but I'm not the governor yet.

Pablo Torre: I don't, excuse me, excuse me, sir. I'm just playing with you, I'm playing with you. It's not that big of a deal. Part owner Cuban.

Mark Cuban: If I, emperor, god emperor.

Pablo Torre: No, I'm kidding. The thing I wanted to ask about, though, as I probe your thinking, because it's fascinating to see how you would approach this dynamic. Because I'm thinking like, well, would it be different as a calculus to you if Steve Ballmer had personally put in like $50 million and was personally helping with the business development of Aspiration with the co-founders of the company? If he was like doing that sort of a thing where he was personally helping.

Mark Cuban: I could see what I can see happening is, okay, you're going to do a $300 million deal with us. I'll put $50 million in. He probably has no idea how the day-to-day operations, because in the bigger scheme of things, there's just not enough hours in the day to deal with that.

Pablo Torre: But let's talk about the logic of that. Because I think you're making sense. You're making dollars and cents now. So there's a $300 million incoming to the Clippers. Potentially over time, yeah.

Mark Cuban: Over 23 years, specifically.

Pablo Torre: Right. And that's in 2021, in the fall. But then I'm just trying to rack my brain and I'm like, okay, so if he were to put in $50 million while getting $300 back, why is that a good business decision? Just for people who don't understand this stuff, why is that a good business deal?

Mark Cuban: Well, there's got to be more than one piece to that. Because it's not necessarily give 50, get 300. First of all, over 23 years, that's a long time. The net present value is the net present value. Whatever. But if you're looking at it, and again, do you know the date of when he invested the money?

Pablo Torre: September of 2021. Right when they made, so right around the time they made the announcement that they were going to be a partner.

Mark Cuban: Okay. So he gives 50. Now, what you're suggesting that there's a quid pro quo.

Pablo Torre: I'm suggesting that people have asked the question who used to work for the company, whether there is a quid pro quo. Of course, yeah.

Mark Cuban: But at the same time, these guys were doing carbon credits. These guys are doing the ability to offset his travel. Just like I bought carbon credits to offset my travel. So he's thinking it's a good cause. So that's the other thing that I'm thinking. I'm not thinking that he's saying, okay, these guys are scammers and I know they're scammers, so maybe they'll do a scam for me. That's what I see as implausible. And that part doesn't work for me.

Pablo Torre: Yeah, I guess what I'm wondering about is if there had to be something else missing for why you'd give 50, get 300 over 23 years. So the math there, again, you do the math.

Mark Cuban: Well, and maybe you believed in the business. Maybe you believed in the company. Sure. I mean, just look at Sam Bankman-Fried. There's a whole lot of people that believed in him until they didn't. Now, I don't know if that's 50 million is big for Steve, small for Steve, in between. I have no idea how he usually invests. But I do know that if he believed in the business of carbon credits and offsets and trees, if it works, it works. And if it doesn't, it doesn't.

Pablo Torre: So is your theory then, because I guess I want to also just introduce something because people who are not familiar, I'm trying to bring in as big an audience as possible who aren't steeped in the lore of the NBA. Sure. Steve Ballmer, as he described himself, is, of course, a hardcore basketball fan. And so are you. Of course. Like, you too are actually two of the guys I think of when it's like really rich dudes who own teams, who really care about, say, the distance between the toilets and the seats. So there is a micromanaging aspect.

Mark Cuban: No, no, no, no, no. You're getting two things. That's not micromanaging. That's where we'll diverge again. So I see where you're going. You pay attention to the details. If you're paying attention to details as small as how far are the toilets versus paying attention to any $50 million investment, obviously you're going to pay attention to the details. But no, what I said, when I heard him talk about the number of toilets and the distance to toilets, that's just trying to optimize. And so the Balmer, like I was on the audit committee with Balmer, and Balmer was the one guy who looked at numbers. Now, you may think that's an indictment of him, but the reality is he's always trying to optimize. That's the way he thinks. That's the way entrepreneurs think. That's the way I think. How am I going to optimize the experience for fans? And if you're trying to spend $1.2 billion and differentiate your arena, the number of toilets and the distance and time it takes to get to them and your food, et cetera, is just a metric that you use to determine how different you're going to be. I don't think it's indicative of anything.

Pablo Torre: I want to take it beyond just the toilets. Sure. Because Aspiration was a founding partner of the Intuit Dome, but certainly there are sponsors of a level in which their logos on the back of the courtside seat, their signage is everywhere.

Mark Cuban: Right, right.

Pablo Torre: On the jersey patch, exactly right. So is there a level of familiarity with that sponsor that is not quite the same as a lesser sponsor in your experience as the owner of the Mavericks?

Mark Cuban: Yes and no. Yes, from the perspective of you're shaking their hands and taking pictures, no matter what. You're showing up at an event, no matter what. You're doing the things that makes your customers happy, no matter what. You're taking it to, I really put in the effort to know their business? Hell no. Because sponsors come and sponsors go. You know, there are some sponsors like I just went back for the Mavs this week and we honored Coca-Cola and Budweiser and Southwest Airlines. But those are a bit different from the Green Bank aspiration, those legacy brands that are very established.

Pablo Torre: 100% different.

Mark Cuban: 100% different. But at the same time, it's not that much different in that you're not going to all of a sudden become an expert in their business or even dig into details like you're suggesting.

Pablo Torre: Now, what if you happen to invest $50 million of your personal money into it?

Mark Cuban: I've invested millions of dollars into people I've never met.

Pablo Torre: Have you invested 50?

Mark Cuban: Not in people I haven't met, but 10 to 15. On a relative basis, it's about the same. Point taken. Steve is a lot richer than both of us. But the question I'm asking is it's not merely some sponsor, it's the thing you sort of need to assess. Like if Steve Balmer is Mr. Optimization, I imagine what he might want to look at for instance is like the list of sources of business that this thing you invest $50 million into might be.

Mark Cuban: No. You're suggesting that you would not want to... He probably has a team that does due diligence. And the NBA has a team that does due diligence because it's a new category. And if the NBA approved it, they're probably going with it. Just like when crypto hit and we got hit, the heat got hit because of the sponsorship and everybody questioned crypto.com because of it. The NBA had to approve that category. Does it mean that everybody looked into the depth of details? No, it doesn't.

Pablo Torre: I guess what you're saying is FTX happened and that should give us a sense of how poor the vetting process from the NBA is when it comes to the sponsors that they sign with.

Mark Cuban: Yes and no. So let me just tell you what happens. I invest in the company and they say, "Mark, can we put out a quote for the press release and everything?" I'm like, go ahead and write it up. I'll approve it. Unless there's something funky about it, I'm like, go for it. Half the time, if it's smaller investment, I don't even check. I've got people who do deal diligence on these deals, like my Shark Tank deals, due diligence team comes in. Bigger deals, little bigger team comes in. "What do you think? Here's my questions. Get these answers." Do I go into the absolute details? No.

Pablo Torre: So I want to understand something though, because when you're saying that Steve Ballmer was a guy who of course wanted to optimize everything, wanted to recruit the best players and all of that. And you had experience, of course, doing the same thing in your own parallel way. I actually want to take us back to one of my favorite internet stories where I really did come to appreciate you on NBA Twitter as an entity, which was the chair in front of the door. DeAndre Jordan, 2015. In a stunning reversal, free agent NBA center DeAndre Jordan backed out of a commitment to sign with Mark Cuban's Dallas Mavericks. Instead, he is re-signing with Steve Ballmer's Los Angeles Clippers. Clipper Blake Griffin posted this pic to Twitter as he and teammates helped keep Mavs owner Mark Cuban away and sway Jordan, their free agent center, to renege on his contract agreement with Dallas. What I loved about that was it went to the extent of showing how much everyone cared about getting these players. And so I just want to establish that as just a general principle. But you're also saying that Steve Ballmer is not the type of person who would want to bend or break the rules of cap circumvention to get such players.

Mark Cuban: Because you have to look at the risk-reward. You have to look at the risk-reward.

Pablo Torre: So the question I have is, what explains the fact that in that same case of DeAndre Jordan, which of course involved you with the Mavs and Steve Ballmer with the Clippers, why was Steve Ballmer's Clippers team fined by the NBA for apparently reportedly offering a Lexus endorsement arranging a Lexus endorsement according to reporting to DeAndre Jordan?

Mark Cuban: Yeah. I don't know. I don't even remember that part happening. That part, I don't even recall.

Pablo Torre: Yeah. Right. I mean, it did happen though.

Mark Cuban: Yeah. Yeah. I'm not saying it didn't. That would have been dumb. Like, look, if I'm wrong on this and you're right, then Steve is not as smart as I think he is.

Pablo Torre: Well, I'm team s***ing bricks, Mark, I guess is what I'm saying here. I'm team s***ing bricks based on the reporting. So can I, I don't want to cut you off because I actually want to know what you're about to say. I just feel like a really smart guy can be so desperate to get a star player that justifies the entire mission of opening a privately funded stadium to compete with the Lakers specifically who we're competing with him. And in fact, when it comes to a bunch of scammers who maybe he didn't know were scammers in 2021, but clearly saw them as aligned with him on, we're going to help you do what you want to the point of him helping with business development. The whole idea of, did he have zero idea that these guys that he was dealing with on a day-to-day basis, CCing with the CEO of Intuit, according to emails that we found, is it possible that that guy would have no idea that they were paying $28 million for a no-show job to the guy who was his most valuable employee, while there was also simultaneously in that same timeline, a $300 million 23-year contract being struck between the company, Aspiration, and Steve's baby, the Los Angeles Clippers, that also had in the document that we acquired, the contractual language, outs at every turn for him to not do anything. And in fact, none of it was ever reported until today. You're saying that that's plausible to you?

Mark Cuban: Yes. Yeah, I mean, look, there's s*** that happened at the Mavs. I had no idea what's happening. And people didn't think that that was marginally feasible because you can't pay attention to everything and every deal that you do.

Pablo Torre: Why did Kawhi Leonard take less money, do you think? Maybe he had that deal in hand, and that was his reason. I don't know. I don't know. Because I have seven sources that say it was to circumvent the salary cap plus the documentation that suggests that that's exactly what happened.

Mark Cuban: Well, the documentation is the contract you're talking about that says if he no longer plays for the Clippers, right?

Pablo Torre: Yeah, among other things, yeah.

Mark Cuban: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I can make the same argument that the scammers benefit as much because of their sponsorship.

Pablo Torre: Wait, can you explain that one?

Mark Cuban: So in every huge sponsorship deal, you get tickets, you get appearances, you get all kinds of ancillary s***. And the better the team, the more valuable that is. All of our sponsors are going to want to have access to Cooper Flagg. Everybody wanted access to Luka, no matter what. And part of us getting those bigger deals was giving people access. And so the better the team, the better the stars, the better the value of the sponsorship.

Pablo Torre: So are you in dispute at all that the deal Kawhi signed in that document, as reported to the extent that you've seen it, that clearly was to circumvent the cap? It's merely that Balmer was not aware of it. That's the argument that you're making then.

Mark Cuban: Right. So who would have known about it at the Clippers then?

Pablo Torre: Who would have known? Wait, no, I don't think anybody knows about necessarily at the Clippers. Nobody would have known about the fact that Kawhi Leonard?

Mark Cuban: So my logic is different than yours. My logic, I'm putting the hat on of aspiration. Yes. And just the aspiration hat on. If I'm paying Kawhi to do something for me, even if it's a no-show Tony Soprano job, he's of no value to me in Dallas. Yeah. I can take some of that scam money that I just brought in and let me give it to Kawhi in the deal, because if Kawhi stays, they're probably going to be better. And if they're better, my sponsorship money is worth even more. There's more value to the scammers to doing this deal than there is to Balmer for doing the Kawhi deal.

Pablo Torre: So I guess I just want to square the circle here. Because the team had a relationship with Aspiration that had ended as described in 22-23. And that started in 21. The Kawhi contract also started in, I mean, well, the LLC was registered and the LLC was named very conveniently for my purposes, KL2 Aspire LLC in 21.

Mark Cuban: Pretty stupid, yeah. I mean, not the most genius plan by Uncle Dennis Robertson, admittedly.

Pablo Torre: Right. But the point is that all of that stuff was happening simultaneously. So let me ask you a question.

Mark Cuban: Let me ask you a question. Yeah, please. I just don't understand how the Clippers would have no idea. Help me with the timeline here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I forget when Uncle Dennis was an issue and him trying to do side deals.

Pablo Torre: 2019, that was after he won the, Kawhi won the title with the Raptors.

Mark Cuban: Right, so, and that was a topic at the Board of Governors meetings, I remember that, I just remember the years.

Pablo Torre: Can you explain what that meeting was like, actually? Because I'm fascinated as to how that goes.

Mark Cuban: Yeah, it was basically, it wasn't specific to Uncle Dennis, but he was an example. It was effectively that you have to have a specific person you're negotiating with. You have to be a registered agent in order for you to be able to agent.

Pablo Torre: And that statement, by the way, you got to be a registered agent to agent, is not a tautology. That's actually something that requires a quick explainer here, I think, about the rules that changed in 2019. Because the Clippers signing of Kawhi Leonard in free agency in 2019 sparked a landmark NBA investigation. Multiple teams reportedly complained to the league that Dennis Robertson, Kawhi's uncle, who is not a registered certified agent, had gone directly to league owners to demand sweeteners and perks and hidden endorsement deals to circumvent the salary cap. And this investigation resulted in no proof, apparently, of illicit benefits provided by the Clippers, who got Kawhi Leonard. But what Commissioner Adam Silver did decide to do was increase fines and penalties for teams that negotiated with non-certified agents. He also mandated verification of agent certification at the time of contract negotiations, call them the Uncle Dennis rules, which were then emphasized in a big and dramatic meeting about Caps or convention with Adam Silver and the NBA's board of governors.

The reporting is that Uncle Dennis made those requests of Lakers owner Jeannie Buss, quote, and that she made it clear that such perks were illegal and would not be considered.

Mark Cuban: Yeah, because we talked about it in the Board of Governors, yeah.

Pablo Torre: Right, so Uncle Dennis went to owners.

Mark Cuban: Is a badass negotiator, yeah.

Pablo Torre: So you're saying that he didn't go to Steve Ballmer.

Mark Cuban: Oh, maybe he did. But if Ballmer had any brains whatsoever, he just laughed at him. And that doesn't mean Uncle Dennis stopped there.

Pablo Torre: All of which brings us back now to Uncle Dennis, who declined to comment for this episode when we sent him another detailed list of questions, all of them stemming from the fact that he was listed as the designated representative and go-to contact on Aspiration's secret $28 million endorsement deal with his nephew that nobody, not Aspiration, nor the Clippers, nor Kawhi Leonard, ever announced.

When it comes to like when Uncle Dennis is making calls and he's saying, "I need to get paid here," which is what the source told me in the finance department. And others have said as well, he was the guy calling saying, "Hey, you owe us money."

Mark Cuban: Wait, Uncle Dennis is making the call, right?

Pablo Torre: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. That's in the episode, too. Doesn't that say a lot? Isn't that a red flag to you?

Mark Cuban: In what way?

Pablo Torre: The fact that it's Uncle Dennis making those calls. It's not even plausible to you that this is a deal between Uncle Dennis and these two guys at the top?

Mark Cuban: I think the person who is most likely to have zero idea that he was under an aspiration contract was Kawhi Leonard. Look, if your reporting is right and Steve knew, then it's over.

Pablo Torre: So what do you think the punishment is that's fair?

Pablo Torre: If in fact he's toast. I mean, he's got, it's far worse than Joe Smith. Now, the difference is just because someone says Steve Ballmer knew doesn't mean he knew.

Mark Cuban: But what I'm saying is when Uncle Dennis is calling to say, "You owe us the $28 million for the no-show job," in so many words.

Pablo Torre: Right.

Mark Cuban: And the sources inside of Aspiration are saying, "We were instructed this is the number one priority that we have because Steve Ballmer put $50 million into the company." At the same time, we agreed to pay Kawhi $28 million. It just feels like as the company is collapsing and the scam is falling apart, the person you might logically attend to, according to the thinking of these sources that I spoke to, the seven people, is the person who had the most influence over your company among those investors. I just don't see how the Clippers, at some high level, would have no idea.

Mark Cuban: So let me ask you this, and I don't remember. Who was Kawhi's authorized agent?

Pablo Torre: It was Mitch Frankel.

Mark Cuban: Okay. What does Mitch Frankel say about all this?

Pablo Torre: That's a great question. He hasn't, Mitch has not responded to our request for comment. I should spell that out. And it may well be that he thinks Uncle Dennis is in the middle of it and pulling it off, because Uncle Dennis is not supposed to be in the middle of any of this shit.

Mark Cuban: Right. Why can't you say for marketing deals? For marketing deals it could be different.

Pablo Torre: And so this is where I just gotta say quickly that we reached out again not only to Uncle Dennis Robertson but also to Kawhi's agent Mitch Frankel, neither of whom responded before our deadline again. We also reached back out to the Clippers with new questions about what Steve Ballmer and front office executives like Clippers President of Basketball Operations Lawrence Frank might have known about Kawhi's deal with Aspiration and when they might have known it. And on Wednesday night, about 45 minutes after Mark and I finished this conversation, the Clippers released the updated version of the statement they gave us for our last episode. A statement that no longer had the phrase "provably false" in it anymore, by the way. Now, the team says that it welcomes the NBA investigation and it reiterates that neither Steve Ballmer nor the Clippers knew about any improper activity by Aspiration until after the government started its investigation. The new statement reads, in part, quote, "Steve invested because Aspiration's co-founders presented themselves as committed to doing right by their customers while protecting the environment. Neither Steve nor the Clippers organization had any oversight of Kawhi's independent endorsement agreement with Aspiration. To say otherwise is flat out wrong," end quote. And so I just think it's useful to point out here, as we finally finish the legal disclaimers, framing our conversation with Mark Cuban, that the word "oversight" is not the same word as "knowledge." And as for my seven sources inside of Aspiration, who are the kind of people, by the way, who signed up to work for this company because they actually did care about protecting the environment, to quote the Clipper statement, these people have become key sources in multiple ongoing federal investigations, resulting in the arrest and guilty plea of co-founder Joe Sandberg, whom the U.S. attorney for the Central District of California has called, quote, "nothing more than a self-serving fraudster," end quote, and who has declined to comment to us through an attorney. And so I suppose that at this point, the whole Department of Justice angle does finally bring us back to the rules of the NBA. But now this is where I think the question of what punishment happens here is on a couple of different levels, right?

Mark Cuban: We're not, I'm not giving in that he's guilty that Ballmer knew this was going on, right?

Pablo Torre: Oh, you're still team Ballmer.

Mark Cuban: Oh yeah, for sure. For sure. You haven't told me anything that makes me think otherwise.

Pablo Torre: But the contortion that you're making has Steve Ballmer. I look at the contortion you're making, right? And I'll tell you why.

Mark Cuban: Okay. I'll tell you why.

Pablo Torre: Because you're not giving the scammers enough credit. That's the difference between us. You're assuming that Steve Ballmer has all the leverage and all the knowledge and all the awareness, control the circumstances. I'm telling you, if these two guys were good enough scammers to get valuations at $2 billion plus.

Mark Cuban: But Mark, can I just jump in here to say that we reported the story of the scam and it's absurd. The scam is absurd. The scam was very simple, actually. And you know what? You reminded me of it because you mentioned FTX. We also did a story about FTX. We talked to Michael Lewis and Zeke Fox, the two authors of the Sam Bankman-Fried books. And my big takeaway was very actually resonant in our reporting on Aspiration. Here are these guys who used sports as a cosign to get credibility as good guys, such that more companies, Meta, the Red Sox, Clippers, these are all the, that's who Aspiration got. And they got it once they got Steve Ballmer. Okay? So Steve Ballmer putting in $50 million, right? The question is, why would Steve want to do that? And I think the question I keep on returning to is—

Pablo Torre: I know, I get the foundation of your question. But the scam in terms of like why I'm not underestimating the scammers is because what the scammers did was create a bunch of fake LLCs, fake customers, fake letters of intent that Steve Ballmer, by the way, could have assessed if he wanted to. But again, you're telling me rich guys don't need to do that at that level necessarily, even though they're Jersey Patch sponsors. It feels like it's just his responsibility as the greatest investor of the last 20 years, according to the Acquired podcast, to look at the letters of intent that you can get in the documentation. and you Google them and you say 80 to 90% of these are fake.

Mark Cuban: So this is where we disagree, right? Your presumption. But I want to leave that. I want to give that to you. I want to give that to you. I want to give that to you because let's say he didn't do the Googles. All I'm saying is when it comes to why Steve Ballmer decided to do that deal and like what was going through his mind, I don't think it's a very big logical contortion to say he found somebody who would keep a deal for his most important player who he needed to pay above the salary cap to the tune of $28 million secret so successfully that he would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for me. And so the scam here is not simply, man, these guys were real clever. It was also that they were very stupid. They made up these fake letters of intent, fake LLCs. It collapsed within a couple of years. And the whole thing, Mark, as you know, carbon offsets, it was, we're going to plant some trees, but we're not even going to plant them. We're going to broker it. and we're going to charge five to 10 times what it costs to plant a tree in the ground. It was an arbitrage.

Pablo Torre: Yes, five to 10 cents for a dollar, right? So that, I mean, it's crazy. Maybe that's why he invested.

Mark Cuban: Oh, so by the way, I believe that the end game there was a SPAC in which Steve Ballmer would have had the ability to hit a $2.3 billion valuation. They did merge with the public company, right? And he would have got, so they probably told Steve to what you just said, some new information for me, right? What they probably told Steve is we're going to take this out in the SPAC and you'll get your money back right away when the SPAC goes public.

Pablo Torre: That was exactly part of the plan, as my reporting has indicated to me, was that there was a payday as well. By the way, as you say, multiple reasons to get into business. But the question of, right, cap circumvention and what an owner has a responsibility to know, doesn't it feel like it's his responsibility to know if the partner that he's gotten into bed with that's on the jersey patch, on the seats, all over the building, has this side deal? Like, isn't that part of his oversight responsibilities as the owner of the team to do the due diligence?

Mark Cuban: How is he going to know? How is it? But what? How would he not know? Like, that's the logic here. It's like you're sort of presuming that these guys hid it from him.

Pablo Torre: And what I'm saying is that seven sources told me, including the documentation, that everybody knew about it. And this is the question I have for you, Mark.

Mark Cuban: All your sources are inside the scam company.

Pablo Torre: Oh, but these are people who are the victims. If there are any victims in this story, it's people who thought-

Mark Cuban: The people who weren't there always are the victims of the scam company.

Pablo Torre: Yes, who thought we're trying to do good. We're the climate change people. We're like true believers about carbon offsets, which is sad. And they got scammed just as badly as everybody else. And their question was-

Mark Cuban: Right, but that makes my point. That makes my point, Pablo, that the scammers-

Pablo Torre: But you're saying the scammers are really good at scamming. Why would the scammers tell seven people at least, and I'm told it was dozens who were aware of this, that Steve Ballmer and Casper Convention is the reason we can't talk about this?

Mark Cuban: No, I get your point again. But on the flip side, if I want to shut everybody up, "Hey, we're saving the world. But in order to get this $50 million investment, in order for us to be able to get the value of the sponsorship, I'm going to lie to you and tell you I did this deal that Steve Ballmer is making us do these things." Right. Everybody who works for us, stay focused. Don't talk to anybody about this, because if you do, that can make the whole thing fall apart.

Pablo Torre: But I feel like I'm giving you and I'm giving you the reason why you can't talk about it. I feel like you're the greatest defense attorney for two scammers in terms of just like, no, I've been scammed. That's why I know I've been scammed. But Mark, I want to square the circle as I keep on saying like a cliche, unfortunately, of like how these guys can be smart enough to pull something off, but stupid enough to tell truly in my reporting so many people inside the company.

Mark Cuban: You're missing the point. No, no, no, no, no. Because because how else do you get them to shut up? How else do you get them to shut up, you know, and stay focused on the job?

Pablo Torre: But I think there are two choices. It's how else to get them to shut up. But also, if we tell them a lie that directly indicts the guy we're trying to keep out of the news, you've given them the recipe to tell a reporter in September of 2025.

Mark Cuban: How many of them know how the NBA CBA works?

Pablo Torre: Dude, they, it's not, the whole notion of cap circumvention is not especially complicated as a concept.

Mark Cuban: No, it's not, it's easy.

Pablo Torre: Exactly, so the whole idea of like, the reason it's a secret is because we're paying Kawhi outside the cap.

Mark Cuban: If you hadn't told me Uncle Dennis was the one to make the call, I would have been more likely to believe that Steve was at fault.

Pablo Torre: Wait a minute. So let's dig in on that. So why is that?

Mark Cuban: Because if Steve knew and the minute he found out that this shit was falling apart and these guys were a scam, he'd say, "Let me invest some more money so you can pay off Kawhi so this whole thing goes away and there's no evidence of it any longer and let's just erase all this from the books." You don't leave this outstanding debt out there. And particularly once you see that they're on a path to going broke and, you know, potentially you understand enough. And I think we've all had enough experiences with bankruptcies that those creditors are going to become public. And because that's where you've got the story, right? And so that's, you know, the whole due diligence, smart enough to know, right? It applies to that as well. He's leaving himself so wide open in a way that he's going to be smart enough not to be if he's truly breaking the rules. If Ballmer was involved and he just immediately square the circle, to use your term, the minute things went sour, he's a f***ing moron.

Pablo Torre: You're saying save Aspiration personally to prevent bankruptcy, to prevent all of this stuff. That's one option, or invest more money, right? And just tell them to pay off Kawhi.

Mark Cuban: Because it would have made no sense to do this on an annual basis. It would have made a lot more sense to pay it off, put it away, nobody knows any better.

Pablo Torre: The question I would ask you, though, would your calculation of throwing another $50 million after your original $50 million change if you became perhaps suspicious, if not aware, that one of these men was going to be pleading guilty to wire fraud?

Mark Cuban: He knows he's f***ed at that point.

Pablo Torre: Yeah, I agree.

Mark Cuban: He knows they're committing to wire fraud. He knows they're f***ed. So I'm doing everything possible. I'm going to Uncle Dennis, and I'm saying check written well that's the next question right as a correspondent and an investigative journalist that's right from Indiana University Power School of Journalism right why would Ballmer just go or have representative thereof just go to Uncle Dennis and say "Uncle Dennis, forget those guys, here's $30 million to make for you to get them Aspiration amnesia and just make this go away."

Pablo Torre: Oh, you want tell them you want you want SEC style you want you want SEC he's already investigating He already knows.

Mark Cuban: No, sorry, I meant Southeastern Conference football stuff.

Pablo Torre: Oh, there you go, yeah. Like booster paper bag.

Mark Cuban: But that's what you're saying is directly pay Uncle Dennis.

Pablo Torre: Yeah, I mean, look, it's risk-reward. If he was dumb enough to go down this path in the first place, at that point, he's got to keep on digging.

Mark Cuban: Yeah, I mean, look, logically, now we're completely in agreement. I think some dumb shit happened after some dumb shit happened. I mean, that's my suspicion.

Pablo Torre: Yeah all suspicion right All allegations right

Mark Cuban: But I just don't think that he just going to you know what Let just see where it goes and may the chips fall where they may

Pablo Torre: But I think that the chips falling almost happened behind closed doors that no one saw The question of, was there going to be someone who was obsessed with bankruptcy filing documents like me who would go through the trouble?

Mark Cuban: No, you're giving yourself, you get credit for doing it, but you're giving yourself too much credit.

Pablo Torre: No, no, no. But the point is, why didn't anybody else find it? I'm not saying that I'm great. I'm just saying that nobody else found it. So one of us has got to be right. One of us is wrong, right? Either team Ballmer.

Mark Cuban: I'm team bricks. Once again.

Pablo Torre: So team bricks or team Ballmer, right? I just think if it's team, if it's team Ballmer, he didn't know. And all this is going on. And that's why there was no response. You're saying that it's all falling apart anyways. And everybody's bricks and they're going to do nothing.

Mark Cuban: I think they didn't have moves to make with Aspiration because there was criminal activity that has now been revealed in DOJ and SEC investigation. Remember what I just said, right? It's not a, it's not a, it's Uncle Dennis, right? Or his representative. So move stick with Aspiration.

Pablo Torre: So let's just put Aspiration to the side. So the question is, what timeline are we living? I believe we're in a timeline in which Steve Ballmer knew, according to the reporting, the seven sources plus the documents that provide the context that Steve Ballmer.

Mark Cuban: But all those sources and all those documents are internal to Aspiration only, correct?

Pablo Torre: And I believe that they are the most credible people for the reasons I said.

Mark Cuban: No, it's exact opposite. No, no, no, no, no. Exact opposite. If I were to tell you that the questions about why does this deal exist preceded 2022, would that change your level of belief in Team Sh**ing Bricks?

Pablo Torre: No, because it doesn't provide any confirmation that Steve knew anything.

Mark Cuban: But it happened before there was a need to spin. So, you know, like I said, the scammers, Uncle Dennis goes to the scammers and says, not knowing they're scammers at the time, say, "Hey, you just signed this $300 million deal with the Clippers. Who's the best player on the Clippers? Who represents the Clippers the best? Who's, you know, who's going to be here long after they're gone? You know, work with me. Let's do a deal with Kawhi." You know, and if Kawhi's going to play, whatever, no, he's not going to show up and hug trees. He's not going to show up and talk about, you know, offset. He's not going to do anything.

Pablo Torre: Literally anything. He's not going to hit a fave on Twitter.

Mark Cuban: Yep. Which he doesn't do a lot of anything, but that's beside the point. You know, that Uncle Dennis is negotiating. That's still not proof that Ballmer knew.

Pablo Torre: But Mark, what I'm saying is the reason I trust these people is because when I interviewed them and I asked them about this bankruptcy filing, this LLC, they said immediately, "Oh, it's for this reason." And then I said, "Can we prove it?" And they said, "Yeah, there's a document." And I said, "Can I have the document?" They said to me, "Here it is."

Mark Cuban: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the contract, the $28 million contract in which none of the jobs were contractually obligated in terms of deliverables on the KPIs. The KPIs were just play for the Clippers, which again, established.

Pablo Torre: The point being that their knowledge of this and their providing of it was substantiated by documentation, emails, bank statements, other sources, seven of them, seven. None of which connects Steve Ballmer.

Mark Cuban: Oh, but they all connect Steve Ballmer. They say it was cap circumvention at the direction of the most important investor in our company who put $50 million in the same order.

Pablo Torre: And who did that email come from?

Mark Cuban: Which email?

Pablo Torre: The one saying this was at the direction of, it's cap circumvention at the direction of them.

Mark Cuban: That was what they were told. They were not stupid enough to put it in emails.

Pablo Torre: Okay, so who told them? Was it Sandberg? When I say it was common knowledge at the company, I think there are two ways to see it. One is, wow, the scammers perpetrated a plan that was so deliberate that it handcuffed people from going to anybody and saying anything because they needed to protect Steve Ballmer. And that's why they were, zip, can't talk about it, right? The other thing that's possible here, though, is that these guys ran a scam that was so messy that it got shot down within two years, three years if generous, and they didn't really consider this.

Mark Cuban: Yeah, but that still doesn't implicate Steve Ballmer.

Pablo Torre: But it does, but really now we're talking about is the credibility of the seven people I spoke to plus the documentation they provided.

Mark Cuban: No, it really comes down to the credibility of the people who told them.

Pablo Torre: But the point is that when they say this, in the light of day, it all adds up with reality. And what they said is not, you know what, we were lied to. It's this is the only thing that makes sense. It's the only thing.

Mark Cuban: I get that too. It does. It's the only thing that makes sense. It's the Occam's razor, Mark.

Pablo Torre: Not even close. Not even close. You're suggesting.

Mark Cuban: Okay, look, what you're suggesting here is that these scammers made it so that they were smart enough to tell these rank-and-file employees that, "Hey, don't tell anybody because it's Ballmer." But they were stupid enough to not realize that one day they would actually tell me, a journalist, exactly what they were told.

Pablo Torre: Every Ponzi scheme falls apart at some point, right? Every single one of them. Madoff went for how many years? And all those people who worked for him, all of them, down to the computer programmers who programmed the false statements that got sent out to the owner of the Mets at the time, right? And all the other victims that they had. Everybody has to fall in line. They don't all think they're working for a scammer. A couple of them know, but they're all told that Bernie Madoff is making 15% a year risk-free. So to your, look, You had people in the Bernie Madoff case, to go back to your logic, who were smart investors, including people who are some of the, at the time, biggest investors with the most money.

Mark Cuban: Of course.

Pablo Torre: And they got scammed, right? Unknowingly, they trusted people. Maybe someone told, maybe Bill Clinton told Steve Ballmer, right, that these guys are legit. So I'll tell you a quick story, right? There's a guy that I competed with 40 years ago with my company, Micro Solutions. This guy was good, really, really good, great technologist. He contacts me 30 years later, and he says, "I'm putting together this company." I do some due diligence, but I trusted him, just at best trusted him. All the scam. Now, in this case, I lost $8 million, right? I'd done basic due diligence, but it was underpinned on the trust and the references that I got. I had no idea. And all this technology stuff, he would tell me I had to deal with this company and this company and this company. And his employees believed him. His family believed him. I believed him. So when I keep on going back and say, some scammers may be good, but all Ponzi schemes fail at some point. And when those Ponzi schemes start to falter, that's when things start to come to light. And again, I haven't heard anything that takes me off the team Ballmer. I think that, you know, there's, there's a lot of uncertainty. I just don't see it.

Pablo Torre: But, but, but this is, this is really where I'm driving to because what I presented you with is an owner who wants to win very badly, just like you did an owner who has so much more money to spend than he's allowed to spend, you know, which is pretty unique to him. Not that you're not very wealthy, Mark.

Mark Cuban: No, I hear you. It's okay. You made it rain. He's got a lot more money than me.

Pablo Torre: You made it rain. Those padded seats, courtside was an incredible thing.

Mark Cuban: I got it done, baby. Incredible thing.

Pablo Torre: But what I'm saying, though, is that—

Mark Cuban: Hey, nobody else put microphones on the rims until me.

Pablo Torre: You're a pioneer. A pioneer.

Mark Cuban: Yes. In the rim world, I'm in the Hall of Fame.

Pablo Torre: Oh, gosh. What a sentence. Oh, take that back. I didn't say that. Cut that out. We digress. I've given you this story of an owner who is those things who also in 2015 went head-to-head with you for DeAndre Jordan and got fined $250,000 for trying to arrange a side endorsement deal with Lexus and was told you can't do that. And so now 2019 comes around and all these other owners in the NBA at the board of governors meeting which you said you attended are saying, this Uncle Dennis guy, who you personally have experienced pleading with you, "Give me some stuff," right? That guy-

Mark Cuban: It wasn't quite like that, but he contacted us.

Pablo Torre: Okay, yeah, but that's, okay, fair. But the point being that there was an investigation by the league specifically around side deals-

Mark Cuban: They changed the rules.

Pablo Torre: Endorse side deals that resulted in the changing of the rules, right?

Mark Cuban: Yeah.

Pablo Torre: And so that's 2019. And so then we get to 2021 and Steve Ballmer, right? Having acquired Kawhi Leonard needs to figure out in this extension that he signs Kawhi Leonard to, and this is, I think, a key detail that maybe we've sort of underplayed. He signs Kawhi Leonard to a deal that was mysterious at the time to the people who had no idea about the story, but we're just covering it from an NBA perspective. Neither the shortest nor the longest extension available. He signed a deal that was convenient to the Clippers for years, $176.3 million in 2021. How much was that short of the max? How much was that short of the max?

Mark Cuban: It was a max. It was just that he restrained the ceiling on available money because he didn't go as long or as short as he could have.

Pablo Torre: And so the question then is.

Mark Cuban: But he didn't really give up any money. He gave up optionality. Optionality to align his contract with Paul George's with the Clippers, right? Which is something that was very helpful as covered, by the way, at the time.

Pablo Torre: Mark. Okay. But, you know.

Mark Cuban: But there's no equivalency. It's not like he gave up $7 million. Kawhi Leonard wanted maximum money at all times.

Pablo Torre: But the point being is, that same time, this guy who had previously gotten in trouble in the way with DeAndre Jordan, head-to-head with you, and also was investigated by the NBA for specifically this reason, has this deal with a sponsor who says to him, you know what? We should give you $300 million as your founding partner of this arena. And also, guess what, Steve? You should give us $50 of your own. and simultaneous to that in this timeline, 2021 fall.

Mark Cuban: I get it. I'm just saying you are sort of contorting this.

Pablo Torre: But why $28 million? Why $28 million? It's just, by the way, less than $50 million, which you put in? Like the sources inside of Aspiration. Why $7 million a year? Why $7 million a year? By the way, fair market value when it comes to cap circumvention, you mentioned that this is bigger than Joe Smith, unprecedented in that way. It's because it's a big f***ing number. It's like, why? Why would they do that?

Mark Cuban: Oh, no, no. The cap circumvention doesn't matter about the number. It's just that you do it. The number is irrelevant. It's just the fact that you would do it.

Pablo Torre: But, okay, so in that regard, when Steve Ballmer tried to sign DeAndre Jordan to that deal and got fined $250,000, doesn't that feel like an important detail when calculating are you Team Ballmer or are you Team s***ing bricks?

Mark Cuban: Yeah, but I would take the other side saying you learn really quick, right? And the NBA, when they fine you the $250,000, So the process, as an expert in being fined, there's negotiations that go on and there's discussions that go on. And you talk to the NBA general counsel and they lay it out to you exactly what the risk factors are. And they're not shy to say, if you do this again, the circumstances will be far worse.

Pablo Torre: So what if.

Mark Cuban: And let me remind you of this again. And they will remind you.

Pablo Torre: Totally.

Mark Cuban: Over and over and over again. So I look at that as, hey, that was the warning. And that increased the risk profile for doing this even more.

Pablo Torre: So what if there was a way, though, where you could sign somebody to an endorsement deal in which no one ever had to know about it?

Mark Cuban: No NBA owner is dumb enough to think that, at least I don't think so.

Pablo Torre: But he did it already against you for DeAndre Jordan.

Mark Cuban: No, I get that. And he learned his, hopefully learned his lesson.

Pablo Torre: Why would you assume that this man, who in the face of all the evidence I've given you, Mark, as I assess team s*** bricks versus team Ballmer.

Mark Cuban: But I tell you, in face of all the evidence I've given you on the party he is dealing with.

Pablo Torre: I dare say that you provided zero evidence and more just logic based on how you would have done things. And you seem to have this perspective that is so conveniently generous to the sixth or seventh richest guy in the world. And not the reality of how this story has unfolded.

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Mark Cuban: It's Surfside. It's 100 calories, 2 grams of sugar, no bubbles. So just ask for Surfside wherever you stock up for tailgates or watch parties or post-game hangs. You got to be 21 plus, obviously, but please, please drink responsibly.

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Pablo Torre: What do you think when FTX hit? What do you think all those people did? Well, there's a market. You could see what they did. They sold everything that they could to liquidate. But they reacted.

Mark Cuban: You don't think they just did nothing?

Pablo Torre: But I think they also hid. They also hoped nothing would happen.

Mark Cuban: Yeah, but see, that's the thing right there. They hoped nothing would happen. That's where we vehemently disagree. You think they hoped nothing would happen, and they did nothing, crossed their fingers, crossed their toes, said a prayer and said, "Please, Lord, let none of this come out until Pablo finds it." I just don't see that happening.

Pablo Torre: I think what happened was in the timeline that we outlined, per my reporting, at a certain point, it becomes obvious Aspiration can't pay its bills.

Mark Cuban: Yeah.

Pablo Torre: And at that point, you're beginning to worry. You're saying, "Oh, no." Team shits their pants.

Mark Cuban: Bricks. They shit bricks even.

Pablo Torre: Yeah. And then what happens is you realize or begin to deduce, maybe you do some due diligence now, finally, about like, "Wait a minute, what are we in here?" And this is generous to Steve Ballmer because it indicates that he wasn't aware of the scam. So I'm just taking this as fake value. Just like in this timeline, what he's doing is realizing the government is looming. The investigations are coming. Criminality is afoot. We saw that in 2024.

Mark Cuban: Exactly.

Pablo Torre: And at that point, what you do with Aspiration is a question you're going to have to ask or to the federal government. And so you're not going to put in, as you suggested before, 50 extra million dollars.

Mark Cuban: No, that's where we disagree.

Pablo Torre: Yeah, that's where we disagree. You think he would put in an extra 50 million dollars and give it to a criminal?

Mark Cuban: Well, at that point in time, he probably doesn't know for sure. There have been many, many companies.

Pablo Torre: So when do you treat Steve Ballmer like a really smart adult? When is that going to happen, Mark?

Mark Cuban: No, I just know my experiences. Having invested in companies...

Pablo Torre: Are you treating him like Mr. Magoo?

Mark Cuban: No, no, no. You have never been through this. I have.

Pablo Torre: I have not, but at a certain point, when you realize your bills aren't getting paid and you realize that the government is looming...

Mark Cuban: Well, you don't know in 2022 or 2023 that the government is looming. Not until 2024. Let me give you my experiences.

Pablo Torre: Please, please, please.

Mark Cuban: Okay, so I've had companies where I believed in the company and they weren't operated the right way. Changed the CEO. Gave them more money. Some have worked, some haven't worked. That's just the way it goes. And so they haven't paid their bills. I get the calls because I'm the rich guy behind them. I had another one of my scams. There's two big ones where I got scammed. He's selling shares in the company saying, "You're gonna get paid back." And I have no idea, no idea. Guy ended up going to jail. I covered all of those things. So when he made all these bad, lied to all these companies and took money from them, I made them whole. Because I just felt that was the right thing to do. But I still got scammed. And when I found out, I had the choice of giving them more money to keep them alive, which I did because I felt bad for the employees. And I paid off the people who got scammed on the outside.

He does have that choice. He could have put more money in. Now, come January of 2024, probably not. Probably at that point in time, maybe a little earlier because they probably contacted him. And even then, they said that the team was not under any investigation. But at that point in time, don't you think he would try to cover all his bases and tie up any loose ends in any way he could?

Pablo Torre: If I thought that I'd given $50 million to a guy you were at least vaguely concerned was going to go to jail, I would not give him... starts blinking.

Mark Cuban: As one of literally Steve Ballmer. January of 2024. Let's just say November of 2023. Let's say that for now. And what I'm saying is, if you're Steve Ballmer, and again, I am not you or Steve Ballmer, and I really need to express that as well, because I'm not the guy who was called the greatest investor of the last 20 years, as Steve Ballmer has been because of what he did with Microsoft.

Pablo Torre: You're using that as a way to justify your position.

Mark Cuban: No, no, but it's a part of his expertise to know that when the bills aren't getting paid, what's happening? And you would get your...

Pablo Torre: No, that's a big part of your argument, Pablo, that doesn't hold up. But I get that you're saying that there's a human... So if he's worth $100 billion, let's just say it was $50 billion back then. And so it's 1% of his net worth. But Mark, what if it was the company you agreed to put on your jersey? Once you suspect it happening to you, do you put your head in the ground or do you try to be preemptive to protect your own team, which, as you said, is the most important thing, a multi-billion dollar asset?

And so who's the linchpin in this whole scam from the Clippers' perspective? Who is the linchpin in everything? Steve Ballmer. Steve Ballmer put in $50 million, got out $300 million, is said by seven sources to have been the reason. There's documentation, there are emails. He's doing business development for this company. Uncle Dennis is the linchpin. He's the fulcrum. So if you really, really, really have your franchise at risk, and you know this guy, and according to you, he knew about this. He knew about the 28 million. And at this point in time, there's only $7 million left to go? You have Uncle Dennis saying, "Where's the rest of my money?" Don't you just take care of it because it's a de minimis amount relative to the risk?

Mark Cuban: Not if... And this is, I want to read Bloomberg here, Mark, because I want to give some of the reporting that had been done before me some credit. This is what they say. By early 2022, Aspiration accountants had uncovered a series of payments that sent a wave of panic through the company's executive suite. And they go on to outline the ways in which, quote, some Aspiration staffers worried that a company official might be orchestrating fake transactions to inflate its numbers. Staffers were digging into the company, the sources, in fact, that I spoke to. These are the people that I trust.

Pablo Torre: The times I told you I was scammed, when I asked for reports from the CEOs of those companies, the scammers, you think they told me the truth?

Mark Cuban: What I'm saying, though, is that here are a number of people in the finance department who were in fact the reason why Aspiration was revealed to be the scam. The people you're saying might have been lied to by the scammers are the ones who caught the scammers.

Pablo Torre: Right. Let's just see the hypothetical here because you're not going to budge off of Team Ballmer and I'm not going to budge off of my reporting. And that's what makes some more of it. And that's okay. That's fine. That's great. But if in fact my reporting proves out to be correct...

Mark Cuban: And he knows, then it's go Mavs. Great, this is great. You know, it's in all my personal interest.

Pablo Torre: What about, though, the Clippers front office? I guess what I'm trying to say is if in fact someone had to know from the Clippers, it wasn't binary. It wasn't no one from the Clippers knew.

Mark Cuban: No, there's a good chance that it'd be only the owner at that point in time.

Pablo Torre: Okay. Lawrence Frank has been through it forever. If he did tell Lawrence, and the assistant GMs, they're fucked too. Their careers are toast. Absolute toast. And there's a 99% chance that at some point it comes out, as they try to protect their career. That's one. Two, the agent is going to be in deep shit as well if it ever comes out. And the agent has got to be involved at some level. And so the agent, I don't know what other clients they have, if any, but they're fucked too. And so you've got a multi-billion dollar franchise at risk. You've got the general manager's job. You've got the agent's job. You've got Uncle Dennis, who has no leverage whatsoever.

Mark Cuban: Well, he has the relationship with the most important person in this entire story.

Pablo Torre: Yeah. Right? And so does every parent. So does every uncle. And so does every friend. But Mark, you know that Uncle Dennis... And he also knows, and Ballmer also knows, that A, Ballmer is under a microscope for 2015, and B, Uncle Dennis is under a microscope as well.

Mark Cuban: But now I just want to fill in the reality, not to interrupt because I don't want to be rude, but Uncle Dennis was, of course, subject of the investigation in 2019. And so what he's doing now, in reality, of course, is literally be the designated rep on a deal for Kawhi Leonard for $28 million that is at the very least something that has now, by the way, did you see the Shams thing that just came out as we were talking? The NBA is investigating.

Pablo Torre: Yeah, of course.

Mark Cuban: Okay, but the point is that that's because Uncle Dennis had this deal. So the question of Uncle Dennis, should he know better? Clearly, he didn't know better enough.

Pablo Torre: I got no problem with Uncle Dennis. Uncle Dennis is the smart one in all of this.

Mark Cuban: Well, again, I think mileage varies on that scouting report. But I take it at face value as well. He's doing...

Pablo Torre: Well, no, look. Uncle Dennis, who has no leverage anywhere, shape, or form...

Mark Cuban: But, Mark, you know that the leverage is in the player. The player is the scarcest commodity here.

Pablo Torre: They are and they aren't. Because the home team has the edge. It's rare.

Mark Cuban: I feel like you're trying to give a pep talk to Steve Ballmer in 2021.

Pablo Torre: No! I cannot do this. One way or the other. I hope I'm wrong. The Mavs part of me hopes I'm wrong. But I understand your point of view. The former owner and the logic and everything I've dealt with as a business person, investor, entrepreneur, and owner tells me you're wrong.

Mark Cuban: But it's because you can't imagine personally doing this.

Pablo Torre: No, it's not even that. I just look at it. It's just math. I look at the math and the leverage, and I don't see the value proposition anywhere. Your whole premise is based on the fact that Kawhi Leonard will take advice from Uncle Dennis and do effectively whatever is in the interest, more of Uncle Dennis than of Kawhi.

Mark Cuban: Well, hold on. But that part, right? We know Kawhi Leonard is a frugal person. He wants to maximize his earnings. Saves every penny. Gas guzzler. So legendary in that regard. Makes him lovable. Oh, by the way, he's a capitalist. Kawhi Leonard wants to, board man wants to get paid. Kawhi Leonard to me is very...

Pablo Torre: Not nearly as bad. Look, I don't know Uncle Dennis really at all. And so all of this is me, presumption and allegations and all this. He won't answer my call. So I'm just going based on what the reporting is. Uncle Dennis is the winner in all of this because the CBA rules don't apply to him.

Mark Cuban: Right. At all. Whatever he can go in and negotiate is money in his pocket that he did not have yesterday.

Pablo Torre: So now you're team Uncle Dennis now. Uncle Dennis is the smartest one in all of this. Let me ask you a question. Is it conceivable that Uncle Dennis played a stronger hand and basically bluffed and said, "I control Kawhi"? And I've heard this from many different relatives, friends, "This is my boy. I grew up with him. I raised him," whatever it may be. And he overplays it and he goes to Aspiration. He says, "I'm going to get him out of here, and unless you pay me $28 million and your whole sponsorship ain't worth it."

Mark Cuban: I believe that it's even likelier that that deal happens, but with the blessing of the team that has a $300 million deal with the company that agrees to it.

Pablo Torre: No, no, no, no, no. But Mark, but again, the reason I say that is because I have done all the reporting. I'm not just saying that as a guess.

Mark Cuban: Your whole reporting, Pablo, you get credit. You picked up a needle in a haystack. You found a needle in a haystack and you turned it into something real.

Pablo Torre: We'll be right back.

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Pablo Torre: Almost perversely, but also undoubtedly my fault as the interviewer. And so this conversation, to be very clear, as all our conversations are on Pablo Torre Finds Out, has been cut down for length and clarity. Because at one point, in fact, Mark Cuban and I were so immersed in said conversation that his phone battery died mid-sentence and his connection completely dropped out, which made us worried for obvious reasons. But then Cuban jumped back on the line and we picked right back up with a question.

Mark Cuban: It comes down to who initiated that contract. Was it the agent and Uncle Dennis is just trying to collect? Was it the Clippers and they're just huge idiots? Or was it Uncle Dennis acting on his own freelancing? I would bet on option three.

Pablo Torre: I guess what I'm saying is two things. The ultimate leverage in the NBA historically has been a superstar threatening to leave a place in which you can extract and exchange all sorts of stuff. Now, typically, when we say that, it's within the legal bounds of the CBA. The Kawhi Leonard story since 2019 has been caps or convention. That's the allegation.

Mark Cuban: No, no, no. There was a story. The story is not the same as the facts.

Pablo Torre: No, no, but the story of Kawhi Leonard and this investigation by the NBA, as alleged by your colleagues in the NBA who dealt with him personally, was that this guy is coming to us asking for shares of ownership, but more even, impressingly, these side endorsement deals, these sweeteners that are off the books.

Mark Cuban: No, I get what he asked for. And I'm telling you, Pablo, that happens all the time. It's just like this guy asked for ownership, and that's what made it ridiculous.

Pablo Torre: What I would return to, though, as an NBA fan and a journalist, is the actual timeline of Steve Ballmer owning the Clippers. He wanted the cornerstone, the franchise superstar of a caliber that was going to do the thing that no one had done for the Clippers, which was compete actually with the Lakers. And so the guy who emerges in 2019, fresh off a championship, who looks like, by the way, when healthy, the greatest player in the league is a two-way concern. That's Kawhi Leonard's actual legend as a basketball player. He's incredible. So when healthy is a big if.

Mark Cuban: No question.

Pablo Torre: But in 2019, he just won the title and he was healthy. And Steve Ballmer had the opportunity to do the rarest of things: get a free agent franchise player in his prime, which does not happen. And how did he do that? And what did he give up to do that? He gave up everything. Five number ones, was it? Was it five number ones? It was Shai Gilgeous-Alexander who was not... Shai, we didn't know it was Shai, right? Fairness, in fairness. But basically, and this is, I think, the point I want to drive at, and you just took me there. He did whatever Kawhi Leonard's camp was saying he had to do. That was the story of that offseason, you recall. He wanted Paul George. So if what you're saying is that wasn't enough, and he'd go to any length to do anything but only for Kawhi, I'm not going down that road.

Mark Cuban: Oh, no, no. I'm saying that he clearly knew the importance, because he's an NBA fan, of how you need a true number one superstar to contend.

Pablo Torre: Yeah, for sure.

Mark Cuban: And he got the guy, and he gave him, in reality, whatever was requested by the camp. Paul George, draft picks, all that stuff, he made it happen. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Danilo Gallinari, five first-rounders, your memory's good, plus two pick swaps going to OKC. At the time, this was all very clearly Kawhi wanted to make this happen and Steve Ballmer was happy to do it.

Pablo Torre: Absolutely. And so the question then is, given that kind of mindset, hyper-competitive, by the way.

Mark Cuban: I get your point. But also...

Pablo Torre: I get your point. Where do you stop? I get it. Exactly. And what I'm saying is, the reason I keep on going back to your experience with DeAndre Jordan to 2019. I get it. To 2021. Is because it's all a pattern of behavior. And you're suggesting that at some point he got scared straight by 2019, despite the fact that he got what he wanted and for some reason stopped acting like that.

Mark Cuban: If the catalyst is Uncle Dennis, I couldn't think of anything dumber. Because you're going to the very person that required board of governor meetings and follow-ups to send a message: this is not applicable, this is a problem. And I get your point. You're desperate. You're desperate to keep this player. I just don't think it was a binary set of circumstances like that. I just don't see it. Like I said before, I think it's far more likely that Uncle Dennis was the catalyst with the crooks. And I just don't think you can just presume that everything with Aspiration, the crooked company, is the equivalent of a legit company.

Pablo Torre: Mark, I don't think I could possibly convince you any better than I've tried repeatedly. And vice versa. To me, it's so point blank obvious that, look, both of us could be wrong. Neither of us, one of us could be right. We'll find out over time. I just can't see him going in that direction. I just don't.

Mark Cuban: Mark Cuban, part owner of the Dallas Mavericks, which is a conversation I want to get to, but we never got to it because, of course, this happened. 27% owner of the Dallas Mavericks. Mr. 27%.

Pablo Torre: I think I've said all I can possibly say.

Mark Cuban: And for that reason, Mark Cuban, I am out.

Pablo Torre: I was waiting for you to say it.

Mark Cuban: I just had to say it. This was a lot of fun. It really was.

Pablo Torre: Mark, thank you very much, sincerely.

Mark Cuban: Appreciate it, Pablo. I really do.

Pablo Torre: So this is where I just got to tell you that this conversation, this investigation, this episode even, is not over yet. Because of course it isn't. On Thursday, the morning after Mark Cuban and I really enjoyed the conversation you just heard, journalist John Corrales at Boston Sports Journal happened to drop a bombshell of his own. A bombshell which we here at Pablo Torre Finds Out have now confirmed. New doors have swung open on quite a bit of new information that we continue to report here.

But in this case, you may recall how often we discussed Steve Ballmer's $50 million personal investment into Aspiration and also the undisclosed no-show four-year endorsement deal that Kawhi Leonard signed for $28 million dollars, which, while it's multiples bigger than the market rate for NBA player sponsorship deals, even among superstars, I am told, $28 million is a lot smaller than $50 million, as discussed. But I'm just saying, you are sort of contorting this. But why $28? Why $28 million? It's just, by the way, less than $50, which you put in? Like, the source is inside of Aspiration. Why $7 million a year? Why $7 million a year?

Well, according to this reporting by the Boston Sports Journal, quote, "The $28 million deal was not the only compensation Leonard received. According to a high-level source, Leonard also cut a side deal with Aspiration to receive an additional $20 million in company stock. The stock was to be paid out from Sandberg's personal holdings in the company over four years. That brought the total of promised compensation to Leonard to $48 million. Around the same time as the Leonard deal, Aspiration was going through its rounds of fundraising, which included a $50 million investment from Ballmer. That investment has been characterized to Boston Sports Journal as having been made with light to no diligence. Think of it as getting a commitment on Shark Tank after only a couple of questions." End quote.

So, in other words, Kawhi's updated and completely undisclosed compensation from the company Ballmer put $50 million into would be $48 million. Now, I swear that I did not plant that Shark Tank reference or seed that scoop or do anything like that with the Boston Sports Journal. It is simply one hell of a job by them. But what I did do was email Mark Cuban for his reaction to the updated math. And what Cuban highlighted for me was a couple of other key statements in the article: how the stock was to be paid out from Sandberg's personal holdings, specifically in the company, and also about the, quote, "rogue behavior" of co-founders Joe Sandberg and Andre Czerny, the guy who would sign Kawhi's $28 million contract, which was in the episode we did before. But Cuban's last line to me was about that Shark Tank reference. Quote, "And I've said yes to Shark Tank deals after the pitch, with no questions, other than the price. Smiley face." End quote.

Pablo Torre Finds Out is produced by Walter Avaroma, Maxwell Carney, Ryan Cortez, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Lohman, Rob McRae, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor, and Chris Tuminello. Our studio engineering by RG Systems, sound design by Andrew Bursick and NGW Post, theme song, as always, by John Bravo, and we will talk to you next time.

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Speaker 2: I'm Hannah Burner, and I'm also thinking about underwear, but I prefer full coverage. I like to call them my granny panties.

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Speaker 2: Same. They're so light and so comfy, and if it's not comfortable, I'm not wearing it.

Speaker 1: And the bras, soft, supportive, and actually breathable.

Speaker 2: Yes, Lord knows the girls need to breathe. Also, I need my PJs to breathe and be buttery soft and stretchy enough for my dramatic tossing and turning at night.

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