ABC Pulls Jimmy Kimmel, Pam Bondi’s Free Speech Mess, and Trump Sues The New York Times

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Kara Swisher: The news today is just sort of a shit salad with shavings of shit on it.

Scott Galloway: Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher: Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher, and I have not been canceled yet. What about you?

Scott Galloway: I think the key word there is yet. As if.

Kara Swisher: As if.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I'm Scott Galloway. I don't really care.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, still. Unless they rename you because they don't like that name.

Scott Galloway: I'm sitting here in Nashville, massively jet lagged. I was in London about 22 hours ago, and I'm in New York and now here. And I'm watching across. I'm staying at the, where am I? The Grand Hyatt. No, I'm staring at the Grand Hyatt and the JW Marriott. And across the street is this parking lot being torn down by these two massive cranes. That's fun to watch, oddly relaxing. Yeah, it is fun. I've just been sitting here thinking about metaphors with the U.S. society. But anyways, I'm in Nashville. Where are you?

Kara Swisher: I'm back in D.C. I was in Ann Arbor yesterday doing my class at the University of Michigan and also interviewing Pete Buttigieg.

Scott Galloway: Yes, yes. Oh, my God. I'm sorry. What are you teaching in Michigan? Justin? Scott Galloway 101. That's really, I just talk about you. That's all I can say. Baby, unlocking my heart is an enigma. Will you come talk to the class? I think they would like that.

Kara Swisher: Oh, 100% no.

Scott Galloway: Remote, remotely.

Kara Swisher: Oh, remote? Yeah, I would do remote.

Scott Galloway: You have to look at the camera so people can look at your pretty face.

Kara Swisher: No, I'm sorry. I'm looking literally at this parking lot being torn down. Next thing you're going to want me to stop masturbating in the middle of our podcast. Leave me alone.

Scott Galloway: All right. Listen to Ben. Listen to Ben. I think I'm the only person who didn't care that he did that. I saw him recently at CNN. You know, remote work is just going to have some externalities, folks. I was like, is that? Yeah. Whatever. I mean, it was not in good taste, I would say, but I wouldn't have say fired him.

Kara Swisher: No, no, no, no, no, no. Good taste immediately implies that he made a conscious decision to masturbate with the camera on. He didn't. He didn't realize. He was at home. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say he's not the first person to masturbate at home. I don't think he thought, "I know what I'm going to do." I just thought he's like the lawyer. I'm talking about habeas corpus. I think I'll yank one out.

Scott Galloway: Those were the simple days. Those were the simple days. Such innocent times. Such simple times. Such innocent times. Listen, you have to stop looking out the window and pay attention.

Kara Swisher: I'm sorry. You've got a lot to get to. You know what? Saul has a video he watches of diggers, and this is what it's like. You're like a three-year-old boy. It's amazing.

Scott Galloway: Well, you know my favorite TikToks now. Have you seen these amazing mastiff pit bulls? And they have some guys lay out like a raw turkey, a chicken bone, eggs, tomatoes, and like a pineapple. And they say, "Okay, Brutus." And Brutus just eats all these things whole.

Kara Swisher: Scott, you're so weird. I'm watching flower arranging and cooking and you're like a guy who makes French onions.

Scott Galloway: Oh, trust me. I've watched much weirder stuff.

Kara Swisher: I figured. I'll leave your video on so you don't masturbate today.

Scott Galloway: I'm not in the mood. I've watched much weirder stuff and then done my impersonation of Jeffrey Toobin as I watch it.

Kara Swisher: We're going to leave Jeffrey Toobin out of this because we got a lot of news to get to as usual. I mean, Jesus. Okay, let's go. ABC is pulling Jimmy Kimmel Live off the air indefinitely after a comedian made a joke about the Charlie Kirk shooting, which is actually factual. Let's listen to exactly what Kimmel said.

[Audio clip plays]

Jimmy Kimmel: [in clip] We had some new lows over the weekend with the MAGA gang desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them and doing everything they can to score political points from it. In between the finger pointing, there was grieving. On Friday, the White House flew the flags at half-staff, which got some criticism. But on a human level, you can see how hard the president is taking this. My condolences on the loss of your friend Charlie Kirk. May I ask, sir, personally, how are you holding up over the last day and a half, sir?

Donald Trump: [in clip] I think very good. And by the way, right there, you see all the trucks? They've just started construction of the new ballroom for the White House, which is something they've been trying to get, as you know, for about 150 years, and it's going to be a beauty.

Jimmy Kimmel: [in clip] Yes. He's at the fourth stage of grief, construction.

Kara Swisher: By the way, Kimmel posted on social media after Kirk was killed, sending his love to the Kirk family and to all victims of gun violence. FCC chair Brendan Carr, who's got to be the most unctuous toady in a sea of them in the Trump administration, blasted Kimmel in an interview with right-wing podcaster Benny Johnson on Wednesday, calling Kimmel's comments the sickest conduct possible, which is inexplicable. He suggested ABC's broadcast license was at risk, threatening, "We can do this the easy way or the hard way," which gives me every indication his penis is very small. Next star, the owner of several ABC affiliates and the company seeking FCC approval for its $6.2 billion acquisition of rival media company Tegna. They need an out because they'll go over 39% ownership across the country, announced it would drop Kimmel's show. Sinclair Broadcast Group, which is also owned by conservatives who also own ABC stations, followed, demanding Kimmel apologize and make a personal donation to the Kirk family and Turning Point USA, Kirk's organization. Disney CEO Bob Iger and the company's TV chief, Dana Walden, then made a decision to take Kimmel off the air. Trump celebrated the move as great news for America and urged NBC to pull the plug on Seth Meyers and Jimmy Fallon. I don't know where to fucking begin here. Is Bob Iger the worst person on Earth at this moment? I think possibly. And I'm not really clear what happened here with them. Secondly, Nexstar and Sinclair are now telling us what we can and can't do. And they can take it off the air. They own the company. Fine. Whatever. Brendan Carr, to me, should be the focus of this. And Donald Trump. This was a shit rolls downhill kind of thing. He essentially threatened them. And with "we can do this the easy way," I'm excited for the lawsuit that will ensue because of this. They are quashing free speech. I'm not talking about Nexstar and Sinclair. They're just horrible toads. This is a problem with Brendan Carr, who's always been a problem, who has had millions of quotes saying we should never do this. I can read them over and over again. And then, of course, it began with Donald Trump, who's been attacking Kimmel for a long time and predicting he would be fired. Scott, initial reaction when you heard the news?

Scott Galloway: Well, I think Bob Iger is going to go down in history as Neville Chamberlain in a cashmere sweater minus the dignity. I mean, unfortunately, Neville Chamberlain was actually a pretty decent man and thought he was doing the right thing. And he's become a bit of a footnote in history as someone who defines the word appeasement. But one thing's clear. I doubt Bob Iger's really happy he came back. I think this is a terrible footnote on his legacy. And when you know these people bent a knee, they kind of broke the dam. So Sherry Redstone paid basically a vig to get her deal done. Iger did. And now you have this guy Brendan Carr. These people aren't, we don't have a director of an FBI, we don't have an FCC chair. What we have are people who are acolytes of President Trump and are just enacting his will and hope that once they get out of office, he'll carve up ByteDance or some other company and make them rich. This is full oligarchy now. It has nothing to do with the government. They control all three houses. They essentially have a very sympathetic Supreme Court. And I kind of admire it. They're all about, "We're just going to do everything we want. We're an autocrat." You said something that always struck me. I love the Washington Post statement, "Democracy dies in darkness." And you've always said, "No, it's dying in full light of day." And so look, I don't, they could make an argument. I said this about Colbert. I don't think this is the same here. Let's just talk a little bit about Jimmy Kimmel. Disney is not losing a lot by canceling Kimmel. Only 12% of his viewers are age 18 to 49. And at an average of just 220,000 viewers within the demographic, and by the way, that's down 10% from the same period last year, it's down two-thirds by 2015. Overall, the show averages about 1.8 million viewers a night. That means about 1.6 of that 1.8 are 50 plus. So, look, it's not, and the show has probably 180 employees. Sure, that's a different decision. Having said that, if Bob Iger had decided, "You know, I'm a billionaire. I've had a wonderful life in no small part because of the rights of free speech, an appreciation for basic capitalism, an appreciation for fidelity to the law. You know, I'm already a billionaire. Maybe it's time I actually tried to do the right thing." He decided not to do that. He wants to get the stock price up and I think just get the hell out of Dodge or get the company sold. I don't know.

Kara Swisher: He wants to sell it to Apple from what I, that's what it feels like to me. I want to read some Brendan Carr quotes because I think we should. Iger, I don't even want to speak to him again at this moment. And I really like Bob Iger. We know each other very well. I've interviewed him dozens of times. But I am so embarrassed for him. I'm embarrassed for his wife, who runs a journalism school. I don't know what she's going to say to her students today. I don't want to drag her into it, but she runs a journalism school. So she's got some explaining to do, I think, on behalf of her husband. It's not her decision, but nonetheless, it's awkward, I would say. Iger could have quit. He could make excuses all he wants about shareholders. I know he had some right-wingers on his ass quite a bit, including Elon Musk, including Ike Perlmutter, etc. It doesn't matter. He had a duty to something bigger here and is one of the few people who probably could have done this and pulled it off correctly. I know he was very upset when neo-Nazis were protesting outside of Disney. I get all that. I get the shareholder thing. I get worried about safety. But at some point, stand up, man. Like this is just, and he could do it. Let me focus on Brendan Carr though, because this is really the real problem here. All the right is now saying, "Oh, Sinclair can ask anything of anyone." Of course they can. They're terrible people. And that used to happen in the old days when television first started. But let me read some Brendan Carr things from 2019. "Should the government censor speech it doesn't like? Of course not. The FCC does not have a roving mandate to police speech in the name of the, quote, public interest." Then he said in 2023, "Free speech is the counterweight and is the check on government control. This is why censorship is an authoritarian's dream." And then back in 2022, "President Biden is right. Political satire is one of the oldest and most important forms of free speech. It challenges those in power while using humor to draw more people into the discussion. That's why people in influential positions have always targeted it for censorship." J.D. Vance today, "Everyone please congratulate Marco Rubio, the host of ABC's new late night show." I mean, whatever that alleged couch fucker says is always stupid. I don't think he did fuck a couch, by the way. Let me just be clear. And this is what's the problem here. And then today, Carr also then said, "Sinclair has every right to demand that Jimmy Kimmel donate to Turning Point USA." He needs to shut the fuck up. I honestly don't know what else to say about this guy. It's going to be lawsuits. He is crossing the line as a government official, making these kind of threats due to speech. I don't know. He's the one we need to focus on, despite the fact that Iger is such a disappointment.

Scott Galloway: Well, I just want to talk about, I mean, it's going to be easy to talk about how insanely hypocritical this is, and then we should try and move to, or I've been going down a rabbit hole around what we can do about it. In 2023, Fox described cancel culture driven largely by woke ideology. Tucker Carlson asked his audience, "If you want to know how free your society is, just ask a really basic question. Am I allowed to make fun of people in charge? Can I mock them? Can I tweet? Not with violence, but with words. And if you can, you're in a free country. If you can't, it's not." That's Tucker Carlson. Representative Jim Jordan claimed in 2021 that cancel culture is the most dangerous thing happening in our country today. In 2020, Trump told the RNC, "The goal of cancel culture is to make decent Americans live in fear of being fired, expelled, shamed, humiliated, and driven from society as we know it." In a 2020 campaign rally, Trump said, "The unhinged left mob is trying to vandalize our history and punish, cancel, and persecute anyone who does not conform to their demands for absolute and total control." Pam Bondi targeting hate speech on the Katie Miller podcast. We're going to play, this is Attorney General Pam Bondi is cleaning up after the mess, after remarks about free speech pissed off people on both sides. Let's listen to it, and then you can comment on it.

[Audio clip plays]

Pam Bondi: [in clip] There's free speech and then there's hate speech. And there is no place, especially now, especially after what happened to Charlie, in our society. Do you see more law enforcement going after these groups who are using hate speech and putting cuffs on people so we show them that some action is better than no action? We will absolutely target you, go after you, if you are targeting anyone with hate speech.

Kara Swisher: Now, to be fair, as you know, Tucker Carlson was one of the ones on the far right who was pretty fired up about this, but in the way that's different. Let's listen.

[Audio clip plays]

Tucker Carlson: [in clip] You hope that a year from now, the turmoil we're seeing in the aftermath of his murder won't be leveraged to bring hate speech laws to this country. And trust me, if it is, if that does happen, there is never a more justified moment for civil disobedience than that ever, and there never will be. Because if they can tell you what to say, they're telling you what to think. There is nothing they can't do to you because they don't consider you human. They don't believe you have a soul. A human being with a soul, a free man has a right to say what he believes. Not to hurt other people, but to express his views. You can also hurt people with your speech. That's fine too.

Kara Swisher: I mean, anyway, we'll get to Trump in a minute, but go ahead with your point.

Scott Galloway: Well, okay. So hate speech. What Jimmy Kimmel said, I thought I had the wrong clip. That qualifies as hate speech? I mean, the First Amendment basically says it's not absolute. If you incite violence, if you defame people, that's not legal. But quite frankly, we said much worse things about Trump than what Jimmy Kimmel said. And this notion, so, okay, could hate speech be "President Trump should be incarcerated at a minimum and possibly executed while in prison"? Is that hate speech? Well, Charlie Kirk said that about Biden. So we're going to have the attorney general now threatening to target people. And that's an authoritarian government. So it's pretty clear what's going on here. CBS has been sold to the Ellisons, and NBC and ABC are basically under threat of being silenced and potentially losing their business because the acolyte of Trump running the FCC is threatening to pull their licenses, and the nation's top cop is threatening to target people based on what appears to be a bar for hate speech that is the following: speech that disparages or that is critical or even mocks in a humorous way. So I'm sort of, I mean, this is just so, we're going to spend the next few days distracting from Epstein, talking about and validating what we all know. This is a violation of law, which may not be upheld or take a long time in court to be upheld with the current Supreme Court. We know it's directly contrary to everything or one of the things that's been key around free speech in our country that makes our country great. And we're going to spend a ton of time talking about it. And what I want to talk about and what I've been researching, getting up at three in the morning with jet lag, is what we can do about it. And I used to think, well, people will rise up, they'll vote in '26. Okay, I don't know how much damage will be done by then. People will be outraged. But the bottom line is the majority of people, I'm here in Nashville, went out to get some coffee, are kind of just going about their lives and don't see a big difference. So to call on them to think they're gonna do something, yeah, you hope so, but so far, I mean, the markets are up today. What I think we need to think about, and I think the only thing that moves the needle here, I'm increasingly convinced, is some sort of national economic strike. And I was going pretty deep into the rate cut yesterday and some of the economic reports. And get this, the top 10% income-earning households now are responsible for 50% of the spending, which basically says what we all know, income inequality is out of control and it's the rich people who have all the money. But the top three and a third percent are responsible for 25% of all spending. And I don't think consumers and people who have money realize how much power they have. They have more power now than Senators Warren or any comedian on the left. I think what we're going to need to do, and I've been thinking about this myself, I was doing a ton of research on this this morning. I mean, there's the meaningful and there's the profound. The meaningful would be to, or the trivial I should say, cancel your Disney Plus subscription. Then we're going to see a bunch of screenshots of people who've canceled their Disney Plus subscription. Oh my God, the whole fucking parking lot just collapsed, Kara. I wish I had that on film. Anyways, Jesus, that's a metaphor.

Kara Swisher: Did it just happen?

Scott Galloway: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: Did they just cancel Anderson Cooper?

Scott Galloway: Anyways, what I'm beginning to think about personally, because I don't want to wait till '26, I have business relationships and capital with and in Silicon Valley Bank, J.P. Morgan, Bank of America, Northern Trust, Goldman Sachs. I'm contemplating transferring all of my assets to Lloyds or HSBC. I'm trying to figure out if there's someone we could call on who's a real leader who could rally the top three and a third percent responsible for 25% of the spending to in, say, December, not buy Christmas presents, maybe stay at home, not go to St. Bart's, maybe try and reduce their spending by 10%, 20%, which quite frankly really doesn't impact the top 3.3% income-earning households. That is literally pure consumption. And trying to take the economy, if you took the economy's growth down for one month by 1%.

Kara Swisher: In protest. That's what you're saying. Say, "Look, I'm not going to fund a move towards an autocracy."

Scott Galloway: Well, unfortunately, the people you're talking about feel very comfortable, and that's what they do. They keep those people comfortable.

Kara Swisher: Before we get to that, I'll just note, the issue is this group of people is not stopping. And before we get to fixes, you need to know what's coming. Trump kept up his litigious streak this week, filing a $15 billion defamation suit against the New York Times and four of its reporters, as well as publishing house Penguin Random House. And as comedian Margaret Cho put it, "No matter what he cancels, he can't cancel himself off the Epstein list." Let's keep that in mind. Now, Bondi tried to walk it back a bit because she was getting so much flack largely from MAGA. "Freedom of speech is sacred in our country. We will never impede upon that right." But her comments came as Trump administration officials, including Vice President J.D. Vance, are calling on people to report Charlie Kirk critics. These people are so hypocritical that they just don't even care anymore to even hide it. Let's listen to what Vance said while he was hosting the Charlie Kirk podcast.

[Audio clip plays]

J.D. Vance: [in clip] Civil society, Charlie understood this well, is not just something that flows from the government. It flows from each and every one of us. It flows from all of us. So when you see someone celebrating Charlie's murder, call them out in hell. Call their employer.

Kara Swisher: Oh, good Lord. This is exactly what Charlie Kirk said not to do. Like he said, everybody, there's evil speech is fine. He even said it in one of his speeches. He said, "This is what makes our country great." This is so ridiculous. Trump is also now designating Antifa, which means anti-fascist, as a terrorist organization, despite the fact that it's an ideology, not an organized group. So that's another thing. But they are relentless. They will next go after NBC, presumably, because Trump puts a roadmap up. Ellison is trying to buy CNN, which should not be allowed, but under Brendan fucking Carr, it will be. Everyone who needs something from the government should realize they are a target. Everyone that needs something from the government, and even those that don't, hell, "Call your employer," that kind of thing. The vice president, who was just so inadequate to every task he is given, that's what's going to happen. So one of the things you should realize is try to anticipate their next move. I think it'll be NBC, then CNN. They'll continue to go at the New York Times, which they will lose, but it'll still take time and effort from the New York Times. They've already got the Washington Post under the overly steroided-looking Jeff Bezos with some very bad facial changes he's made. But this is...

Scott Galloway: It is. Come on. You'd think if you were that rich, you'd have a better... Just my opinion about that. I don't like it.

Kara Swisher: I think he looks great.

Scott Galloway: No, I think he looks shiny.

Kara Swisher: He looks great. He looks like one of those housewives.

Scott Galloway: I think the facial hair, the facial hair of Pete Buttigieg and the chest and the pecs of Bezos, and I'm rethinking everything here.

Kara Swisher: I know you are. I know. I know. Listen, I know you like a train daddy. So any other thoughts on this? I mean, I understand what to do, but I don't think, I think these people are going to be relentless until they're stopped at the voting booth. And that is the only place. I don't know if we can wait. It's another year.

Scott Galloway: Right, it's another year. First off, okay, so let's look at what's going on. Because that's what they're targeting next, the inability of people to vote against them, which people want to do. Oh, that's what normalizing the National Guard in cities. You have CBS, NBC, and ABC. CBS has gone to Ellison, and NBC and ABC are now under threat of having their licenses pulled. And then you have, so what did we have? We saw that a concentration of power and consolidation of media, and the media that counts, basically Alphabet and Meta, has led to a dramatic uptick in rage, a dramatic uptick in teen suicide, and basically a coursing of our discourse. Now we're seeing a concentration of what I call traditional media. Quite frankly, that symbolism is really dangerous because it symbolizes a move towards an authoritarian rule. It doesn't have that much impact because the reality is these are declining businesses with less and less influence. In a weird way, it's going to help some of the new media properties that are a little bit more fearless. I mean, if NBC and ABC just become kind of starched, whitewashed, scared. I mean, even MSNBC, when I was on there and I said we elected an insurrectionist and a rapist, and Mika was compelled to say that he was actually found liable for sexual abuse. When they have to do that, all that's going to do is make these shows seem so fucking vanilla and boring that they're going to turn to some of the new media outlets online. And there's a lot of them and it's going to put new wind in their sails. The issue I have is I just am kind of done. We know this is wrong and I'm frustrated that there isn't more thoughtful, strategic, economic pushback. Because we know this is wrong. Look, this is pretty simple. That Kimmel clip was like, really? That's what got them removed? But let me ask you, what do we do? Other than wait for '26, what do you think we should do?

Kara Swisher: I do think just focusing in on media that can't be manipulated like this so easily. Of course, lawsuits are always hanging over the head of everyone in media. But look, CBS is dying, let's be clear, away from all of this stuff. The fact that Trump is targeting the stuff that nobody watches anymore is kind of interesting. Like, Jimmy Kimmel, late night has, like, it's a whole plot on Hacks that it's dying, right? It's already in the zeitgeist. So late night is too expensive and doesn't have enough audience. Cable, same thing. Networks, forget it. Like I would think these companies would get out of the broadcast business and say, "Fuck you, Brendan Carr. Do whatever you want with this." Because nobody's watching the TV. They're watching it on YouTube. They're watching it on Reddit. They're watching it on wherever. Kids and not just kids, everybody's watching it. They're streaming. Are they going to try to regulate streaming now? They can't. They don't have that pull into streaming. So put Kimmel, if I was Iger, I would have put Kimmel on streaming. Just put him, okay, you don't like him here? Let's just put him on streaming and cut costs and work that particular.

Scott Galloway: Well, that's what he'll do.

Kara Swisher: Right.

Scott Galloway: But I mean, if I were Iger, I would have said, "Let's, here's our solution."

Kara Swisher: No, no, no, Iger won't do it. Jimmy Kimmel will do it.

Scott Galloway: Yes, that's right. Jimmy Kimmel has a big opportunity. He's going to take his 180 people. He's going to take his best 15 and he's going to start a YouTube channel. Same thing with Colbert, right.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, or podcast. That's the thing. Like, let's just make our things and be very careful.

Scott Galloway: Well, you know, they will, lawsuits will be their next thing. That's obviously, but there is way too much media that is growing for them to control all of it. And so I think like, look, let's just, we've got to just burn those ships and move on. Like, that's the thing. Because this is how Trump lives. He lives in the 80s in his head. So CBS, ABC, and NBC are the be all and end all. But they're not. They're not influential anymore. And we should just move along and make our stuff. And we should grow and conservative outlets should grow, whatever it happens to be. I was sort of, although I think Tucker Carlson's really, something's going on with him, that when he articulated it was absolutely right.

Kara Swisher: Tucker, I mean, okay, we both have our issues with Tucker. I think Tucker right now is the most likely nominee for the Republican nomination. I think he has been very good lately.

Scott Galloway: Well, he's consistent at least, right?

Kara Swisher: Well, about housing, it comes across as, for young people, it comes across as intellectually honest. It comes across as courageous, not afraid to go against his own party. And I realize I'm talking our own book here. Our downloads are up 10% in the last 30 days. And guess what?

Kara Swisher: Everyone from Megyn Kelly to Joe Rogan, you're going to see a lot, increasingly people turn to podcasts like The Daily because The New York Times is fearless and does the work. You're just gonna see media that is not scared of Brendan Carr or can't be controlled by Brendan Carr. Boom. Because people are really interested in what's going on and they like fearless.

Scott Galloway: You know, I'll give you an example, Don Lemon. Don Lemon's doing a great job. Don Lemon is doing such a fantastic job. First off, I love people who just work really fucking hard. He's out and about. People don't know. Explain what he's doing. I love this. He's a man on the street. He's totally unafraid. He shows up to everyone with a mic. He responds thoughtfully. He's forceful yet dignified. He's clearly working his fucking ass off.

Kara Swisher: He's doing a great job.

Scott Galloway: The reason I love Don Lemon is the same reason I loved Secretary Clinton or Senator Klobuchar. It is just so obvious these people work their asses off. They get up early and they think, how can I be great at what I do by just showing up over and over and over? Don Lemon must be working 14 fucking hours a day. He's outside. He's running around. He wrote me. He's like, what do you think? I'm like, I love the Don Lemon in the streets. He's doing a great job. And everybody should watch it because this is where he shines, I have to say.

Kara Swisher: Same thing, Bret Stephens wrote a great piece. Karl Rove wrote a great piece. He's like, this is not good.

Scott Galloway: You know who else has done a great job? And again, I go back to the same thing. Regardless of AI or what happens to our economy, people who are curious and work really hard and try to be courageous and even take some risks and maybe they make mistakes are still going to have great economic futures. The Bulwark, Tim Miller, how are they putting out all that content all the goddamn time? I mean, I don't know who Tim's husband is, but he's not seeing Tim a lot because, or Don's husband. These people are working so hard. They're rising to the occasion. They're being totally unafraid. And you're going to see a massive, the continued, the acceleration of the flow.

So it's not meaningful. What's most meaningful here is this represents a naked disregard for many of the laws and American principles that have given us so many freedoms and so much economic growth, but the actual tangible business level, it's not going to really decrease our inability to get good information. If Jimmy Kimmel launches Jimmy Kimmel Live now streaming or on Substack or podcasts with great video production, it's going to get the same audience with more young people.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, that's right. Because he's funny.

Scott Galloway: That's right. That's what they should do. And by the way, just like anyone, I also urge people to watch the episode where... and Jean Smart gave an amazing statement on Kimmel. But there is a scene where she gives a speech. This happens to her. They want her to cut someone, the woman she's very close to who got her where she is, and she won't do it. And she ends up quitting on her dream of being a late night show host. But her speech is astonishing. And they already presaged something like this happening. And Tony Golan plays a sort of evil, looking like Bob Iger type of person. And I have to say that it just really was prescient. Hacks was in the last season. It's coming back for another season. So anyway, good luck, Jimmy.

Kara Swisher: One of the things, though, I do think people are a little more upset about this. They're coming for the straight white guys. And that's something that is worrisome.

Scott Galloway: I say more. I hadn't even thought about that. I mean, it's like, you know, listen, there's all kinds of attacks on Letitia James and everybody, a lot of black women, Cook at the Fed, which was untrue, etc. And so now they're coming for the straight white guys. And so I think a lot of people are like, hold on, what? Like, that's the kind of thing that I think starts, I hate to say it, starts to get people going. And it shouldn't, obviously, but they've been coming for trans people. I don't sense that at all. You have a better spot. I didn't even cross my mind.

Kara Swisher: I do. I think trans people are like, oh, that's bad. But, you know, black women, that's bad, but, and now it's like, what? Like, look at the reaction. It's overwhelming in the media. I mean, it's indignant and angry. And I don't think my sense is that the thing about Kimmel was with Colbert. And I believe this, this was, I thought Colbert was an economic decision. Kimmel when, I mean, people just look at that clip and go, wait, that gets you canceled now? And also that it came right after Brandon fucked that guy's car. And then when you have Pam Bondi, the nation's top cop, saying we're going to target people?

Scott Galloway: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: You're not supposed to target people. You're supposed to find evidence of wrongdoing. Sinclair and Nexstar has every right to do this. It still makes them assholes.

Scott Galloway: Well, we have every right to cancel our subscriptions and not watch their programs and sell their stock. By the way, their programming sucks.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, we have to go on a quick break because when we come back, we have more ridiculous clown car activity. FBI Director Kash Patel faced Congress.

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Kara Swisher: Scott, we're back with more news. FBI Director Kash Patel testified for the House Judiciary Committee for two heated days this week. It was kind of ridiculous. Before questioning began, Patel used his opening statement to take credit for identifying Charlie Cook's assassin and told the committee he wasn't going anywhere. It's probably true. Donald Trump doesn't fire incompetent people. When questioned on the Epstein files, Patel claimed he's barred from recent quarters from releasing all the documents. This is not so. Let's listen to a clip of Representative Eric Swalwell pressing him on the issue.

[Clip plays] Eric Swalwell: It's a simple question. Did you tell the attorney general that the president's name is in the Epstein files? Kash Patel: During many conversations that the attorney general and I have had on the matter of Epstein, we have reviewed... Eric Swalwell: The question is simple. Who did you tell the attorney general that Donald Trump's name is in the Epstein files? Yes or no? Kash Patel: Why don't you try spelling it out? Eric Swalwell: Yes or no? Use the alphabet. Yes or no? No? A, B, C, D, E, F. It sounds like you don't want to tell us. Did you tell the attorney general that Donald Trump's name was in the Epstein files? Kash Patel: Why don't you try serving your constituency by focusing on reducing violent crime in this country and the number of pedophiles that are legally harbored in sanctuary cities in California? [Clip ends]

Kara Swisher: Oh my god, he's such an idiot. He's such an idiot. Like, just answer the question. It's re-Diamond and Silk-ified. Of course a lot of this is theater, but god he's stupid. That's what I came out of it.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, it's just bad for the American brand when you see that sort of uncivil back and forth. I mean, a little bit of it is that these hearings have become not really doing their job. They're more or less just a, I mean.

Kara Swisher: It was okay with RFK. I think that was actually helpful to see.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I think so. This is just, I saw the whole thing and I thought, here's another incident where people just feel bad about America because Director Patel is being incredibly disrespectful of people who are elected by their constituents, they are meant to provide oversight. I mean, they're his boss. They provide oversight for these agencies on behalf of the American people. And when he gets back in their face like that, he's playing to an audience of one. And I just found the whole thing really discouraging.

Kara Swisher: The good news is, what's the name of the, I forget, the suspected murderer? What's the name of his family? Tyler. Tyler Robinson. The good news is, my understanding is the Robinson family has cleared a bunch of other crimes.

Scott Galloway: That's a joke. He turned them in.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, that's a good joke. They did the work of the FBI and they're supposedly clearing a bunch of other crimes.

Scott Galloway: A hundred percent. Kash Patel is destroying the agency.

Kara Swisher: I think the agency is stronger than that. Let's hope. Let's hope. But he's just so dumb. So dumb. I don't even care about his stupid back and forth. He's not even good at that. Like, literally, he's not good at any of it. And so, you know, whatever. He's just an incompetent. He won't be fired, just so you know. Neither will Kristi Noem, incompetent. Neither will RFK, incompetent and dangerous. Neither will...

Scott Galloway: But while we're all distracted and angry looking at this, the important shit is no one's noticing. I mean, you realize Putin flew attack drones now into Romania.

Kara Swisher: Yes, exactly.

Scott Galloway: I mean, it's just so funny. Trump's out there saying that Putin would have never attacked Ukraine. By the way, Putin is basically sending an attack aircraft into NATO countries now. And we're listening to Kash Patel make us look like assholes. Instead of immediately, Trump should be unified with Starmer. He shouldn't be at the Windsor Castle, in my view, getting a rub and tug from the royal family. He should be with Starmer. He should be with Macron. He should be with Scholz. And they should be essentially meeting very visibly, quietly not saying anything. And then within slowly but surely within the next seven, 14, 20 days we should be jamming all sorts of military aircraft and material and hitting back very hard.

Kara Swisher: Absolutely. Because basically, Putin now has said, oh, they're so distracted and they're so weak, and this guy loves me so much, I can pretty much do whatever I want. And we're sitting here talking about-

Scott Galloway: Same thing with Netanyahu. What a fucking idiot. Patelism. You're right. And it's interesting. But meanwhile, Europe, meanwhile, Putin is flying attack drones over NATO.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I think people are distracted and they aren't actually paying attention because, as you said, as you noted, the stock market is up largely on the cut, which was expected. The cut was expected. But one of the things that was interesting was NVIDIA investing $5 billion in Intel. Even Joe Kernen didn't like this. The stake was worth about 4% of the company. As part of the deal, NVIDIA and Intel would collaborate on developing chips for personal computers and data centers. Intel stock jumped over 25%, not a surprise in pre-market trading. By the way, NVIDIA needs to focus on this because China's internet watchdog has instructed companies to terminate orders for NVIDIA chips, which is one of its bigger clients. What do you think about this? I mean, Joe Kernen was even like, does this feel like industrial policy or that he's trying to please Trump or create this national chip? Part of me is like, we do need to have stronger chip companies in this country at the same time. This seems, I don't know, it feels very industrial policy, Soviet Union-y. I'd love to know what you think of this.

Scott Galloway: Well, I think this is the kind of thing that warrants, if we had a DOJ and an FTC that hadn't been weaponized, and a lot of people would argue there's still good people working there. The thing I don't like about it is I don't like, in an environment as important as chips, I don't like the idea of these guys coordinating. And that is, now, at the same time, you could argue Intel's a shadow of itself and needs to be bailed out. And the government's gone in, bought a stake. Now, NVIDIA's bought a stake. But the problem with your competitor buying a 5% stake is, say some engineer from Intel pops up and says, you know what, I think I can build the equivalent of a GPU hopper chip from NVIDIA for 20% less, we just need a billion dollars. And they say, yeah, but one of our owners is NVIDIA. You want the full body contact violence of capitalism. You want crazy out of control competition. So when these companies start buying...

Kara Swisher: I mean people could probably fairly look back on Microsoft buying a stake in Apple. Yeah, that's a very good comparative. Different political environment, right?

Scott Galloway: But this is the kind of thing where I want really thoughtful economists and lawyers reviewing it and saying, is this likely going to reduce competition across the most important high-margin products we produce in America right now, which is these chips? So the honest answer is I don't know, but I think it at least warrants a pretty thoughtful review. And will it get that? So if you speak to Jonathan Kanter, he says there's still really good people at the FTC and the DOJ. But in this environment, it just feels like anything that sends stocks up, the Trump administration likes and is going to squelch.

Kara Swisher: I'm just trying to find the deal for Trump in here. You know, everything he does with any chips deal, there seems to be a Trump family member there ahead of the deal to get their vig.

Scott Galloway: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: I don't even know. I just, I would love to know. I would love some reporters to explain what happened here and how it happened. But it seems like NVIDIA is just, you know, jumping at whatever Trump says. I think Jensen Huang was at that really weird-looking dinner in Britain with the king and queen of Britain. That was one weird, weird dinner.

Scott Galloway: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: And the more significant news with NVIDIA is basically China has announced they're striking back and they're saying, okay, we're not going to buy any soybeans. So all you farmers who love Trump, you want to trade war? Fine, we'll go after your heart and lungs and that is farmers. And two, they basically said we're no longer going to buy NVIDIA chips. They've even told companies to stop the integration of NVIDIA chips because they've come up with their own. So-

Scott Galloway: Makes sense for China.

Kara Swisher: That makes sense for China. So these guys are basically everything that was supposed to happen, whether it was bringing back manufacturing, a combination of raiding Hyundai plants and putting a chill across any investment from South Korea. God, these people are incompetent. Like, stop with the indignant. They're incompetent. Vote, get them organized and vote them out. Even if they're going to try to steal the election, don't let them. Like, it's just, I don't want to really sit around and like, bemoan the situation.

Scott Galloway: I'm with you, sister.

Kara Swisher: We can't bemoan. No bemoaning. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, new details about Trump's TikTok deal.

[Ad break]

Kara Swisher: Scott, we're back. I know this will shock you, but Donald Trump has extended the TikTok deadline again. I don't even know if it's illegal this time until December the 16th. It's the fourth extension so far for those keeping score at home. We're also learning more about the deal if it goes through. ByteDance would spin off U.S. operations into a new company owned by investor consortium. Oracle, Silver Lake, and Andreessen Horowitz are among the investors expected to own about 80% of the company. What a shock. All Trump supporting people. The company would have a majority U.S. board, including a member appointed by the Trump administration. That gave me pause. And Trump just said at his news conference with the U.K. Prime Minister Keir Starmer, that the U.S. is getting a tremendous fee plus for just this vig for just making the deal. It's basically another payoff. It's going to go in the hands. There's all this question of how, what's really happening to the algorithm. I suspect that the Chinese will only go along if they're allowed to keep their algorithm. And if it's in this system, that's a problem. If it's not, that's a problem for the product. So I don't know. I feel TikTok is, although I think Instagram and others will bypass it rather quickly, given all the sturm und drang around this. Any thoughts?

Scott Galloway: Yeah, the news today is just sort of a shit salad with shavings of shit on it. So this is effectively the whole point of passing a law, signed by the president, Biden, passed by both houses of Congress, was that TikTok presents a defense threat. We have two-thirds of our nation's youth spends time on TikTok every day, the average of an hour and a half. So TikTok has more influence over our future business, nonprofits, civic and military leaders than NBC, ABC, and CBS did during their height in the 60s. And as a result, people my age, or one of the impacts of people my age, 50% of us feel good about America. It's one in 10 Gen Z. And I think there's no doubt about it. It's the connection to the rage machine, but also, I think, in addition to the rage equals profitability, ByteDance has a vested interest with coordination with the CCP of dividing us internally. So that was a threat. All of the government, all branches of government decided this is bad, let's ban it. And then the president decided, no, I'm not going to ban it, I'm not going to enforce it, and I think I can do a quote-unquote great deal here.

First off, this is such cronyism. So I would like, I'm hoping that you and I can play a role in getting the next president elected. And then I'm gonna ask him to give me the license, the US license to LVMH, because I'm really into Rimowa luggage. But that's exactly what this is. This is I am going to use the power of the presidency to force a great company in terms of economics and upside to be sold to my donors. Right? That's not how you do shit. That's literally we're in Russia where Putin carved up all of the commodities and companies and said, okay, you're a billionaire who's friendly to my interests and you're going to give me transfer money to my Swiss banking account. I'm going to give you the biggest nickel mine in Irkutsk. And you can go buy Premier League football teams and have yachts in the south of France. That's exactly what this is. You don't carve up companies and give them to your political allies. And then it's also not just cronyist. And ignore Congress. Let's say you're also ignoring the law. It's also socialist. Also, someone from the government is going to be on the board here. What, we're going to put Peter Navarro on the board of ByteDance? I mean, that is socialism. That is when the government thinks they're smarter than private enterprise and tries to get involved in the means of production. That is a bad idea.

In addition, the whole thing that started this was the defense threat of having the world's most elegant propaganda machine implant a neural jack into the wet matter of America's youth. That was the whole point. And guess what? The one component of this is that in the deal is that we are going to license the algorithm, but they are still going to control it. So this is all of the bad taste of cronyism and socialism with all of the calories of a lack of doing anything about the true defense threat here. And he doesn't understand. He doesn't care. The silver lining here is I don't think it's going to happen. I think she is just, she is like, okay, pretend this guy is the physical embodiment of a cat on meth who can't stay focused on anything. Waste a bunch of time, go through this deal. We have till December and then we'll put it off again. This guy has shown, Trump keeps blinking, blinking, blinking, blinking.

Kara Swisher: But the deal, just to talk a little bit about the deal, the new entity would be created to control the new and separate American version of TikTok. And the U.S. companies, Oracle, Silver Lake, Andreessen Horowitz, all Republicans and other existing ByteDance shareholders would hold a roughly 80% stake. Also, like, creepy old guys. Sorry, all three. Trump, Ellison, whatever. They really know. They have their finger on the pulse of the young people. But go ahead.

Scott Galloway: And then the new company would have a majority American board with one member designated from the U.S. government directly. OK, thank you socialism. But again, the key, the only thing that matters here in addition to carving up an amazing company and giving it to your Republican allies is that it's very unclear who is still going to control the algorithm, or mostly clear that the CCP is still gonna have input into this algorithm. So, and also-

Kara Swisher: Shit sandwich, like you said.

Scott Galloway: Larry Ellison, if this deal goes through, which I don't think it will, is only gonna get richer because the most overvalued companies in the world right now are Tesla and probably Palantir trading at 40 to 60 times revenues. ByteDance, which economically has operating margins of like, you know, literally like 30%. It's an unbelievable company growing really fast, is trading at two times revenues because of the overhang of geopolitical concerns. So these guys are about to, if they in fact do take control of it, are going to make tens of billions of dollars.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, which is why they're here. So, and to your point-

Scott Galloway: They're like pigs at the trough.

Kara Swisher: They're pigs at the trough. Do you really want Ellison controlling CBS, CNN, Paramount and TikTok?

Scott Galloway: No.

Kara Swisher: So this is, I'm more upset about this economically. We need, look, I don't support Mamdani because I'm a big fan of capitalism. I'm a big fan of full fucking full body contact capitalism that creates violence, blood and competition and amazing products at a low price that creates shareholder value and profits, the likes of which no one has ever seen. And then the government gets their vig in the form of taxation, not moving in and trying to pretend cosplay investment banker.

Scott Galloway: Did you see who we just met with? Let's not go after him because you've got Cuomo saying all manner of nonsensical things. Eric Adams is corrupt. I'm not going after him. I'm saying I think his socialist ideas are bad. I am not for socialism when it comes from a Democrat or the president. Who did he meet with? What does it look like he's doing? He's attacking and listening to business people. He just met with Bloomberg.

Kara Swisher: Oh, he's moderating. He's a smart candidate. He's modulating.

Scott Galloway: Yes, but not modulating. He's meeting with Bloomberg. That, to me, says a lot about that he's willing to at least understand he's going to be the mayor of New York and not just a mom and dad.

Kara Swisher: Agree. And he's also toned down his comments. He's now said that he realizes things like globalizing the intifada are insensitive and you will no longer support those statements. He is a fantastic candidate.

Scott Galloway: My point is the following. I don't like socialism when it comes from the left or the right. And this is, you want to talk about an embrace of socialism, having a golden share in U.S. Steel where the government basically gets to decide. Yes, that's what I'm saying. The only person who is being a socialist here, Mamdani has never done anything. He just talked about bringing vegetables to poor people. That's pretty much where he's...

Kara Swisher: You mean government-sponsored food lines? Stores operated by the government?

Scott Galloway: He was talking about in neighborhoods that are problematic. It's like four of them. Or rent controls such that we have no new development of housing in New York? There's got to be some... I love that we're in an argument over the mayor's race.

Kara Swisher: No, no, no. I'm just saying, all I'm saying is he's done nothing. Trump has proved himself to be a socialist.

Scott Galloway: I agree he's done nothing. That's his qualifications for mayor. He's done nothing.

Kara Swisher: Oh, come on. Come on. He's a fucking city councilman.

Scott Galloway: Good for him. And long line of people who've done nothing. Like, hello, Kash Patel. Hello.

Kara Swisher: Come on. I'm with you. It's a long fucking line. I don't think Mamdani should run the FBI either. He'd be better at it than Kash Patel. That's for sure.

Scott Galloway: You'd be better at it than Kash. I wouldn't want you to have any kind of subpoena power.

Kara Swisher: In any case, we need to move on.

Scott Galloway: Oh, my God. You know what I have? I have sub-penis power.

Kara Swisher: Oh, God. Why did I say the word? Oh, my God. Why did I even say the word?

Kara Swisher: Oh, my God. I can't say. I am so... If I said the word "peonies," you'd make a joke, wouldn't you?

Scott Galloway: Literally, I'm looking at this parking lot. I got to... Can we... Should I take a picture shot of this?

Kara Swisher: No, no, no. You shouldn't. It's amazing. It's so much fun. All right. We're going to take one more. Let's talk more about Gene Smart. Let's talk about Mamdani, who's done nothing, versus Trump, who's like literally a communist at this point. Anyway. My point is, I'm an equal opportunity hater of socialism. He's done nothing. He hasn't been... And I love capitalism. Bring it on. Let's compete. American companies are the strongest companies in the world. We know what these people are doing. Let them compete. They're corrupt. They're cronies. They break First Amendment rules.

Scott Galloway: I'm with you. I'm just saying, these people are actively shitty. And we'll wait for Mamdani to be actively shitty.

Kara Swisher: Mamdani is like shitty and waiting? He's not. I don't know. What if he's great? You're going to eat your words. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

[Ad break]

Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, let's hear a prediction.

Scott Galloway: Well, I gotta be honest, Kara. I don't think I'm thinking very straight. I was asked to do a prediction on Prof G, and I'm like, I'm just out of sorts right now. So I don't feel like I'm thinking clearly. The only prediction I could sort of muster is the following. You have NVIDIA saying they'll take a 5% stake in Intel. That's like the sweat off their brow. It's just not a big deal. So if it's like these companies now representing 40% of the S&P, like, I don't know, 20 trillion in value... What you do when you're so—and I like to point this out a lot, I've been on a lot of corporate boards—when you feel like your stock is inflated a bit, we call it "fully valued," which means our stock is overvalued for some reason. What you do is you go shopping, because what you want to do is find companies that are undervalued, because then the acquisition is accretive. If you go buy, when you have a lot of money, when you're trading at 80 times earnings, if you buy a company that's trading at 20 times earnings, it's accretive right away. So it's like, okay, we have a lot of money on our credit cards that may not be there in three, six, or 12 months, let's go shopping. And I think Intel—I was thinking about NVIDIA and Intel—and also a total absence of any sort of scrutiny or DOJ or antitrust concern. It all adds up to me that I think the next two quarters are going to be historically good, or the best in 10 or 20 years, for M&A. Because I think everyone is going to say, "Well, we would have never even contemplated buying a company like this because the FTC or the DOJ would get in the way." Warner Brothers stock, get this, Kara, it was up 55% last week because the father of a rich kid increased his wealth by $90 billion in one day at the hands of AI. So you have so much money, such inflated earnings of companies who could make so many acquisitions that would be accretive, that I would bet Goldman and J.P. Morgan are in the offices of the Magnificent Ten saying, "Here's a list of 30 companies. Let's go."

Kara Swisher: That's a great prediction, Scott. That is a great prediction. But a company that they would have never been able to acquire, or never been able to afford to acquire, that's $10, $20, or $30 billion, these guys...

Scott Galloway: Give me one. Give me one. Give me one.

Kara Swisher: Comcast.

Scott Galloway: Well, the thing is about Comcast, though, it's controlled by the Roberts family, but that's an interesting, that's a really interesting idea.

Kara Swisher: You could see, I don't know, there's just, who are the biggest media companies that are still independent and out there? Warner.

Scott Galloway: Warner. He should try to grab it from my options.

Kara Swisher: You mentioned one. You absolutely mentioned one. You mentioned Disney.

Scott Galloway: Disney at this point is flailing, and Bob Iger might just throw up his arms and say—

Kara Swisher: Put Bob out of his misery.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, that's right.

Kara Swisher: Because I'm sure he's very agonized about this, Bob. I'm sure. And, okay, I think the market cap of Disney is $120 billion or something. You'd have to pay a premium, call it $150. That's like a 5% dilution for some of these companies.

Scott Galloway: Well, if Apple bought—I'm not sure Tim wants those headaches, but— Just to give you an example, if Apple bought Disney, it would be a 5% bet. So even if it didn't work and the thing ended up being 1%, it's not a career-ending injury. It would be a great acquisition for them at this point. It's not that hard. They do a very good job at Apple TV with a lot of good shows. They need more scale and this huge amount of IP.

Kara Swisher: You haven't seen that for a while. But Apple's been smart about that. He's got to do something spectacular. They like to build internally their own culture.

Scott Galloway: I know, but he can't build that. Look, they've got a lot of hair on that because—are they an AI? Are they enough? Their phone sucks, they need something pretty. The President will let it happen since Tim was also at that dinner sucking up to Trump. You can bet every investment bank, these investment bankers with these key relations, has been there and like, "Here's 20 companies we would have never suggested that you could buy." And they're going to go, "Yeah, why not?" It's kind of almost free for them at this point. These companies are trading... You don't think Palantir is looking at every analytics company? I mean, Palantir is like, okay, we have a $600 billion market cap on $10 billion revenue. Jesus Christ. How about they buy Disney and lop off ABC and let, I don't know, fucking Sinclair have it and do their shitty programming that anyone under 65 isn't watching. By the way, Sinclair, all your audience is dying. So good luck with that. This is just—all these companies that have broadcast—just lop off ABC. Just say, just let it go.

Kara Swisher: Let it go. I was so depressed. I was like literally hanging out last night. All I did was eat cashews. I was on a plane. Yesterday, I heard about the news about Jimmy Kimmel and I thought, you know what? I'm just gonna turn on Spotify, type in "80s," and I got back to the hotel in Nashville. I took a 10 milligram gummy and I just slept for nine hours.

Scott Galloway: Well, good.

Kara Swisher: And I woke up. And now you're staring at construction. I woke up at 3 a.m., went and worked out, and I've been watching this parking lot being torn down. As Kimmel says, it's one of the stages of grief. Demolition. Construction. Demolition. Anyway, all right. Let's bring Jimmy Kimmel on. Jimmy, if you're out there, we like you. We like you.

Scott Galloway: He'll get lots of requests.

Kara Swisher: I have interviewed him. I'm going to repost my interview with him.

Scott Galloway: You always have to one-up me. I'm just telling you, I've already been there. I've been everywhere. You know where you go? Like, you know, "Kilroy was here." "Kara was here."

Kara Swisher: All right. We want to hear from you. That's an old reference. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com. Oh, wait, but Caitlin Collins wants to interview me.

Scott Galloway: Oh, she does.

Kara Swisher: Go on Caitlin Collins' show. I can't get another text from their people.

Scott Galloway: You need to go on Caitlin. As a personal favor to me, will you go on Caitlin Collins' show?

Kara Swisher: Let's be honest. It's not about the brain. It's about the broad shoulders and the good looks.

Scott Galloway: No, no. And the Bruce Dern-like sexiness that she wants on her program. She needs to get a rating. Just go on her show. She's great. She does a great job. I have to say, she does a great job and she deserves your attention. Just, you could make other friends besides Anderson Cooper. I'm just telling you.

Kara Swisher: I love AC. If he gets fired, I'm going on strike.

Scott Galloway: Okay, you do that.

Kara Swisher: I told him, I said, "You know, be careful, Anderson." Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show, or call 855-51-PIVOT. Elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe this week, as I mentioned, I just sat down with Pete Buttigieg for an upcoming episode of On with Kara Swisher. I asked him a very important question about his future. Let's listen.

[Audio clip plays]

Kara Swisher: [in clip] Are you going to run for president again in 2028?

Pete Buttigieg: [in clip] Oh, I don't know.

Kara Swisher: [in clip] Please don't be coy. Come on.

Pete Buttigieg: [in clip] I don't know. Really?

Kara Swisher: [in clip] It's 2025. That's not very long.

Pete Buttigieg: [in clip] Have you lived through the last nine months?

Kara Swisher: [in clip] Yes. That's true.

[End of clip]

Kara Swisher: I got to tell you, that was better than the Gavin answer. That said, he said I could sleep in the Lincoln Bedroom, so we know where he is on that.

Scott Galloway: It's my greatest goal. Will you let me sleep in the Lincoln Bedroom?

Kara Swisher: Sure.

Scott Galloway: Okay, there we go.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, it was really fun. Actually, he's loosened up considerably, which is great because he's very charming. That was a real zinger. Are you running for president?

Scott Galloway: He is running for president. Why do you think he's coming on with Kara Swisher? Why do you think he's doing this?

Kara Swisher: Well, I have to ask that.

Scott Galloway: Well, I understand that, but you still have to ask it. Anyway, Kamala Harris wanted to pick him for vice president and didn't have the balls to do so, so to speak.

Kara Swisher: Well, it's good to know that now.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. It's good to know that. That helps. That helps. That's good.

Kara Swisher: The rumor I'd always heard was that it was Governor Shapiro.

Scott Galloway: No. And then over the weekend, the Black Caucus went fucking crazy. And she picked Walz. Mayor Pete? That's what she wanted, Mayor Pete. She just didn't think they could take a Black lady and a gay man, I guess. That was her calculation there.

Kara Swisher: Wow. Yeah. Wow. I think she would have won with Mayor Pete, or would have angered him. I don't think it would have made a difference. And I love Mayor Pete. And I'm going to be—he's one of, you know, there's like one of 12 candidates I'll support and give money to and see how the process plays out. I think Mayor Pete is an inspiration.

Scott Galloway: How was the interview? Any interesting things from him?

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I asked him about him being a fake gay and about Tucker Carlson accusing him of not being a real gay.

Scott Galloway: He's not a real gay?

Kara Swisher: Apparently. Yes, a lot, actually. He was, you know, he's sporting a beard now, so he's looking...

Scott Galloway: He's not a real gay? Well, I'll say this. He gives great head for someone who's not actually gay.

Kara Swisher: Oh, that's wrong. Is that wrong?

Scott Galloway: That's wrong.

Kara Swisher: And his husband... I'm jet lagged.

Scott Galloway: Wait, who cancels me for that?

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I think he's fantastic. I really hope that—you know, served his country, super smart. Yes, I think his path to the presidency or his messaging—I don't know if he talked about this, but something that's really powerful that I had Ezra Klein on my pod that he pointed out that I thought was really powerful—is that he can speak in a very authentic way. And it was very moving when he talked about it, about he grew up believing that he wasn't going to have the opportunity to have his own family.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, he did.

Kara Swisher: And the fact that he does have this opportunity to have his own family—really what appears to be a wonderful, beautiful family—because of our embrace of civil rights and the right to pursue happiness. And he can speak to that powerfully in a way that I think will resonate with a lot of moderates and a lot of Republicans. We talked about parenting. We talked about that issue.

Scott Galloway: Of course, you never asked me if I ever thought that, because I'm older than him too. I'm much older than him.

Kara Swisher: Well, that's fair.

Scott Galloway: I just think it's much more important for men to have families. You guys have cats.

Kara Swisher: You've still not asked me. Here it is in opening. How are you, Scott?

Scott Galloway: No, how are you? Kara, when you were young, did you dream of having a family and think you wouldn't be able to have a family?

Kara Swisher: Interestingly, Pete and I did talk about this. I wanted to have a family from the get-go. But very early, I bought a onesie when I was 18 because I wanted to have kids. I was going to have kids. I didn't think I couldn't. I was like, "Fuck you. I'm going to have kids. I'm going to have a family." So I think we had a different approach to it. I was more aggressive and angry about it. And Pete was more sad about it, which is the same difference, right?

Scott Galloway: Because you have—how old is Louie?

Kara Swisher: 23.

Scott Galloway: He's 23, which means you had him when you were 60?

Kara Swisher: No. That's good. 39. You were 39?

Scott Galloway: 39. And when I had a uterus back when I had a uterus, yeah.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I had my first at 42.

Scott Galloway: Me too. Yeah. I think it's good having kids when you're a little older.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, me too. Except when they keep getting sick, as the young ones are. They keep trading the same illness back and forth.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. No, it's—you've locked and loaded again. I actually, if I was a little bit younger, I would do that.

Kara Swisher: You can borrow my kids for the weekend and I'll take Amanda away.

Scott Galloway: That would be great. And it's—you've said this—it's the gays that are the only ones keeping—gays and immigrants are the only ones keeping our population growth at a steady level, right?

Kara Swisher: That's correct. And Elon Musk.

Scott Galloway: And Elon Musk. Yeah. And by the way, you know all these guys?

Kara Swisher: Yeah. I think, like, I want to be—I'll tell you what, if I have any pull, you can be ambassador to Australia.

Scott Galloway: I want to be ambassador to Spain.

Kara Swisher: Oh, okay. If that's all right.

Scott Galloway: I'm sure they'll give that to you.

Kara Swisher: Well, give them some money. All right. That's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. And be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back next week.

Scott Galloway: Ambassador to Mexico? No, no, no.

Kara Swisher: Oh, my God, Scott. Scott. Ambassador to like Liechtenstein.

Scott Galloway: You can have Liechtenstein.

Kara Swisher: Don't install a Danceteria. Okay, read us out.

Scott Galloway: Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kate Gallagher. Ernie and her Todd Endred in this episode. Jim Mack will edit the video. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Emil Severio, and Dan Chalon. Great data, by the way. Nishat Krua is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform.

Kara Swisher: Thank you for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

Scott Galloway: I'm in Tennessee, Kara. I'm in Tennessee watching parking lots being destroyed.

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