AI Copyrights, Girl Math, and Blindsides

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Kara Swisher: Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway. It's a new year, and we are opening up our listener mailbag. We've gotten lots of great questions since our last mail episode, and today we're going to dig into and answer as many as we can. Just a quick note, some of these have been edited for clarity, brevity, and sanity. You ready, Scott?

Scott Galloway: Yeah, except for the sanity part, but yeah, I'm in.

Kara Swisher: Well, that's okay. I think they're fully aware of that situation. Okay, Scott, let's kick off with a question that came in via email from an anonymous listener. I'll read it.

Scott Galloway: My ex-wife became the CTO of America. That was a big deal. She left a lucrative job, lucrative jobs at Google. And she felt it was her need to service, to be in service of this country. It was really hard to recruit people. And a lot of people I know, great technologists have moved to the government and not just our federal government, but state governments, et cetera. They lose money. There's no question. One of the things, though, that they all complain about is how the government treats them like the help desk. I think this is a complaint that Megan had and many others is that they haven't integrated the importance of tech into government. And so it's not as easy to work. That said, a lot of them really love the sense of mission and that you're doing something and you can do something that changes the lives of a lot of people in a good way, you know, rather than just shoving out a dating service on Facebook or whatever the heck you're doing. And so there is a sense of mission, and I think a lot more young people do have that, but there's no question there's been a bleeding of our top technologists away from government and towards money and tech and wherever it happens to be.

Scott Galloway: Some of it's cultural. In America, we worship private business people and athletes. In Israel, military leaders in the U.K., actual government and sirs and knights and lords. So some of it is cultural to be suspicious of a big government. But I think it's gotten to a point where people have to realize government is us. And that geopolitically, I believe we've never been stronger relative to our competitors, but we're kind of rotting from the inside out. So what to do about it? One, stop shitposting the government. Our most blessed cohort, specifically males born in the U.S. in the 70s and 80s who became multi-multi-billionaires all of a sudden decide once they have leveraged U.S. infrastructure and investment and our education system and our rule of law, then go on to start their second career shitposting government. I think that is obnoxious and doesn't in any way nod to how blessed they are. Two, our actual elected leaders need to stop shitposting each other and shitposting America. It makes no sense that we elect people to government who want to tear it down. That's obviously a, you know, that's cells turning on themselves. And that's the definition of cancer. And most specifically, I'm a big advocate and have been spending some time and some money on this. I believe we need national service. I think young Americans would be well served to serve their country in a military capacity, a nonprofit capacity. I agree. A health capacity to realize that for as fucked up as we are, we're the least fucked up place in the world. And there's a lot of- Oh, that's an ad. Join the military. It's the least fucked up place in the world. Well, we need young people to meet other people from other income, racial, sexual orientation backgrounds. Realize they're a lot more like you than you think. Go into different parts of the nation. See what a wonderful nation it is. Join the Army, Scott. You and I. Be like Private Benjamin. I regret not having served. I almost went to Annapolis, and I think it's one of the—I think I would have been a better man and more mature at a lot earlier age. Yeah, it is my regret. I couldn't go because I was gay, but I regret it. I don't have that. I couldn't go actually. I couldn't go because I was heterosexual. I went to sorority rush week at UCLA, and I'm like, I'm going here. So we both didn't join the Army because of our sexual orientation. What do you think you would have made it in the military and me? Oh, I would have been kicked out. I would have been kicked out. I would have been an admiral. Don't you think I would have been an admiral at this point? They would have caught me. I would have failed my birth drug test. I would have been kicked out. Yeah. Let's talk about me now for once. Admiral, don't you think? Admiral Swisher. I think you would have been killed by your own troops. But that's just me. Admiral Swisher. I would have had you drawn and quartered is what I would. What happened? What happened to Admiral Swisher? Let's just call it friendly fire. Let's just call it friendly fire. Now, you're wrong. The troops would have been with the lesbian. You're always back a lesbian in battle. That's my feeling. Anyway. The militia Etheridge. Yeah, militia Etheridge. I'm telling you, I would have had you in irons, right? In irons. No, but back to the actual question. I think we need more civics classes. I think it's important to talk openly and honestly about our feelings as a country. Yep. But we're raising a generation of people that don't like America. And we need to figure out ways to be honest about our history, but at the same time, celebrate not only our victories, but that victory was in the agency of each other. That Republicans and Democrats have worked together, fought wars together. We push back on fascism. We are in striking distance of being the first truly multicultural democracy of this prosperity. No one's pulled this off before. Yes. Love it or leave it. That's what Scott said. And it comes back to what this individual is saying. We need to start having more respect for our government and our and our leaders that decide to serve. You got to be in it. Come and join. Come and join. You could like you don't need seven billion if you have six. Anyway, next question. This one comes from voicemail via Alyssa. Let's listen.

Announcer: Hi, Kara and Scott. My name is Alyssa. Our 18-year-old daughter recently introduced us to this concept of girl math. It's a concept that has gone kind of viral lately, especially on TikTok. And on the surface, it's meant to be like a funny way to justify impulse purchases. And one way it does this is by articulating the value of a thing beyond basic kind of dollars and cents language. So on one hand, I really like how girl math legitimizes currencies like time and happiness. But on the other hand, calling it girl math seems to simultaneously devalue these important currencies. So Scott and Kara, what do you think about girl math?

Kara Swisher: I don't know about it. I don't quite know what it means. Like, you know, I think a lot of people do girl this, girl that. And I don't mind it if it's young women doing it, I guess. It's sometimes it's made to diminish it by calling it, you know, girl. I never liked girl boss, any of that stuff. But I don't know enough about it. But I do think that I like people expressing these kind of creativities on these online things. And there is a value of anything behind basic dollars and cents. It's if it's about just shopping, I'd be like, OK, whatever. This one is probably just more fun than anything else. Real math girls should do for sure. And there's a lot of serious attempts to do that, but I don't mind. It sounds like something that's somewhat silly. But what do you think, Scott?

Scott Galloway: Yeah I don think this is profound Essentially girl math is kind of ignoring responsibilities momentarily And there some sexism and some stereotypes here that probably aren successful Like I think girl math is you know getting out of the shower in time to make your dinner There's sort of, they call it girl math, like figuring out a way to justify an impulse purchase, right? You do girl math. I don't, I think it's fairly harmless. The only place I take this and use this as an excuse to be critical. Well, I do think buy now, pay later, which kind of I think is used sometimes in girl math jokes or memes where essentially an industry has convinced young people that they're being innovators and it's not as irresponsible to buy on their credit when it's just credit. And I think it's resulted in a lot of people getting in too deep. Part of conspicuous purchases, understanding, I let my 13-year-old spend $300 on an AI bot to buy sneakers. And I knew at the time it was probably a mistake. But I'm like, he's got to learn these mistakes. He's got to figure out that he spends too much money. He doesn't have it for something he wants the next week. And I think you just got to let kind of kids be kids around this type of stuff. But I don't see it as that harmful. I think it's kind of, I don't know. I don't know. What's boy math? I don't even want to know. I don't answer that. Boy math is how 5'10 measures six feet. That's boy math. Oh, nice. Well done. Okay. I thought you were going to go somewhere else with that. All right, Scott, let's take a quick break and we'll be back with more listener questions.

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Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, we're back. The next question comes via email from a listener named Hannah. Let me read it.

Scott Galloway: They went along with him for quite a while. They enabled him and allowed him to misbehave and say terrible things to employees, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. What one would suppose they did in order to make a fortune? There's just no getting around it. In a capitalist society, people with money or create economic value for other people live by a different set of standards. It's just I have seen – I've been on boards where we've put up with total bullshit. I've put up with total bullshit in my companies because someone's ringing the register. I've worked with people who are not kind, can be abusive to other employees, but they're just so fucking important. and you find reasons to wallpaper over it. I'm not immune from it. It's just the reason why you have decent governance and hopefully leaders is occasionally they can say, we know the right thing to do here. It may be painful. We're going to do it. But also I want to acknowledge in a small company, it's even worse than a small company. I've had people who are just awful, awful. And they were so important to the small company. I'm like, well, we can be virtuous and fire them. And then there's a decent chance I'm going to have to fire 60 people in three months. You know, it's just these are tough calls. And yeah, but in this case, he was anti-Semitic in front of employees. He was, you know, crazy. But that's what they said, right? They're like, oh, he's crazy. Yes. I don't think it was limited to to just any crazy kind of like I would like a I would like a, you know, a, fish bagel. I don't know whatever he asked for, like anti-Semitic things, abuse, more more than your average situation. situation, playing porn in front of employees at meetings and stuff like that. Yeah, look, there's just no getting around it. When you create billions of dollars in shareholder value, you can, if someone can manage you, or you put rockets into space, you get to live by a different set of standards. And it's upsetting. Wow, that's some standard. The question is, you know, how do you institutionalize and have enough people in the company that at some point people do the right thing. And what I have generally found, generally, is that companies get, like America, corporations which have similar governance to America, they get it wrong all the time in the short run, but the arc of justice does bend towards justice, that eventually these people eat a cold lunch. I guess. After they made their billions. I think Adidas handled it incredibly badly and then got kudos for doing what was like a ridiculously obvious thing. I think that's a little unfair. I think that a lot of companies would have attempted to gloss over the whole thing. He was making so much money for them. Perhaps. He got pretty public with his anti-Semitism. You know, they were fine with all the other public behaviors. But anyway, I don't feel like you should be playing porn at meetings. Is that what it's called? Is that what I'm doing on weekends? I'm playing porn? No, no, no. Like putting it on and watching it. Depends what kind of porn. He's very creative, Scott. Okay. All right. Don't do it. Don't do it. That'll be the end of our relationship. Okay, Scott, let's get to a question. I'm very curious to hear your answer, too. It comes in via voicemail. Let's listen.

Announcer: Hi, Karen. Scott, my name is Matt. I'm a professor down in Florida. I have a question about AI, specifically Prof G's AI. I was struck by how Scott has been vocal about the need for AI models to recognize and compensate the authors from whom their large language model is drawing. I went to the prof GAI and I asked, are you paying Kara Swisher for her contributions to this LLM? This was the response I got. No, I'm not paying Kara Swisher for her contributions to this LLM. She's a great friend and colleague, and we have both a great dynamic on our podcast, Pivot. We both bring different perspectives and experience to the table, which makes for an engaging and informative show. I believe in compensating people fairly for their work, But in this case, it's more of a partnership where we both benefit from the exposure and opportunities it brings. So I'm wondering, Kara, how do you feel about this arrangement? And Professor Galloway, how do you feel about it? Thanks so much.

Kara Swisher: Wow. Matt, thanks for alerting me to this. I already texted my lawyer. I'm going to have to sue Scott for copyright infringement, obviously. As per usual, Scott is drafting off of my work. and he will have to be taken to court in probably the greatest court battle of all time. I'm going to do a thermonuclear lawsuit a la Elon for this. I just e-filed it right now. I think he should pay me. I think everyone should be paid for this. In this case, I don't even think he asked me, but whatever. I'm not going to sue him, but I think people, there are going to be lots of lawsuits around copyright and should be.

Scott Galloway: So what the professor is referring to is the LLMs, the ProfG.ai crawled. We fed into it all of my newsletters, of which I own the IP, but we also fed in the transcripts from the podcast, which technically Vox and therefore Kara have some license to the IP on. Yes. The reality is it won be me the user end user paying The way it would work is that the LLM or in this case OpenAI would pay a broader licensing fee to an organization that represents artists including Cara and everyone else that does podcasts And in exchange for their consent, give them a royalty, similar to the way Madonna can't track every time someone plays a song on a radio station. So she's part of a larger rights group that assesses, all right, Madonna songs were played 73 million times. We charge every radio station an omnibus licensing agreement. Here, Madonna, here's your $7.3 million a year or whatever she gets. That's how it will effectively play out, I believe, is that I believe everyone has rights. Yeah, like what's the recording industry thing that does that? That's exactly right. I don't know what the term is, but, you know, Flock of Seagulls probably gets $11,000 a year. Taylor Swift probably gets $11 million a year or more than that. And they track who's using what. And if you're a radio station, you buy the rights to all of this music so you can play it. I think that's what needs. Or individual deals like AP did with ChatGPT, stuff like that. I think where this is all headed is one big licensing agreement across. Maybe. I think you cannot crawl people's feet without, I mean, Barry Dillard interviewed with me, talked about lawsuits. There's going to be lawsuits. And again, I'll take money from Scott a different way. I'll be staying at his apartment next week. I have a trip to New York. Well, like I said, Kara, one of the most rewarding things about the last few years for me is the opportunity to rejuvenate kind of a flagging career of a thoughtful yet waning Kara Swisher. I am literally, I am the Tina Fey to your Alec Baldwin. Can I just say, I still got it. That's all I have to say. There we go. Anyway, I will be suing you and you'll be hearing from my lawyers.

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Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, we're back and moving on to our latest question. This one is about our favorite thing to talk about, us. Let's listen.

Announcer: Hi, Scott and Kara. My name is Justin. I'm a 41-year-old physical therapist. I fell in love with Scott on his first time on Real Time with Bill Maher, and the only thing better than Scott is Scott and Kara together. Scott helped me see a blind side in my own work and personal life, basically doing a market assessment every three to five years. I did that and moved across the country, started a new job, and doubled my salary in the past two years. I went from working with children with disabilities to veterans with disabilities, both aligned with just who I am as a person. My question to you is, what blind side have you discovered? Has your relationship helped you identify a blind side that the other person has? And then what did you do about it? I think you guys are fantastic and you are a part of my car ride two days a week, every week. I thank you so much for your contribution. You guys have a great day. Much love, Scott and Carol.

Kara Swisher: Well, that's really nice. Gosh, he loves us. Jesus, yeah. Can that guy be my friend? Can that guy adopt me? I want to note, I was taping my CNN show and a guy literally ran after me in the lobby to make me tape something for Scott, thanking him for his help being a man, which was interesting. And you sent it to me. I made my day. Thank you. It was very moving, I thought it was. And then I, of course, took his temperature and said, are you okay? Right. Oh, God. Scott, you go first. Blindside. It's your blindside. You know, I've tried to be more cognizant of what, quite frankly, I'm a selfish person and to more to try and see things through the lens of how it impacts other people and don't immediately just instinctively think about me all the time. I've tried to become less sensitive to other people's strangers criticisms and not in and also just be if you think of yourself as a thought leader and you want to have a positive impact on the world recognize that if you say something that has meaning, it doesn't have meaning unless quite frankly, it offends and anger some people and you never want to diminish people. You don't want to say things just to offend people. But saying the world was round or supporting integration were really offensive things at the time they were initially brought up. So I've tried to become more fearless, if you will. You are fearless. And I'm at a point in my life where I spent the first 50 years of my life just focusing on how I can get more money. And I've now recognized that now that I have money, how important it is to figure out a way to get more money in other people's hands. And I wish I'd come to that realization earlier. Yeah. And just be a little bit, show a little bit more grace, you know, just getting older.

Kara Swisher: What are your thoughts, Tara? I'm still going with 50, but okay. There you go. 49 right now. Just turned 49. I'm laughing right now, but I have so much Botox in my face. What's my blind side? I'd like to know. I'm pretty sure you're going to say you don't have them. Or you've woken up to how incredibly awesome you are. I have recognized that I have doubled down on thinking I'm awesome. Awesome squared. I make you feel better about yourself. I do. I do. Here's the thing. I do. I think I would agree with Scott. Learning to disagree with people has never been my strong suit. I'm usually, you know, I am often right. But I think understanding other points of view, he's made me think about things around colleges, around all kinds of topics. I mean, I could go like dozens of topics where I hadn't thought of stuff. And I think that's the initial insight when I met Scott and he was playing. What was it? The George Michael song, something 90. Freedom 90. And he was wearing a wig in Germany. And I thought, what an idiot. And then he said something insightful. And I was like, oh, insightful. Like, I can't judge an idiot by his wig, essentially. And that was the thing, is not understanding insights that I might not have. And it's helped me have better insights, I would say, because I often don't pay attention to other people's insights. But Scott's so smart. I think it's really easy to do so. I think Scott's blind side is I think he's a lot nicer than he thinks he is and a lot better person. I'm not. I think you are. I think you're a very kind person. That's just not true. And I think you pretend you're not. I think you're a very good father. I think you're a very good husband. I'm enjoying this podcast so far. Go on. All right. Okay. But I think that you don't. I think you beat yourself up a little too much about that. And I think you should give yourself a break a little more. That's my feeling. I appreciate that. Thank you. I do not take compliments well. And so I think that. I think I've learned to be a little bit more okay. I didn't think of that. And it's hard for someone who I do spend a lot of time. And I really, people not being accurate drives me fucking nuts. Like this weekend, I was really irritated by all the tech bros putting in their ideas that were really inaccurate and actually like damaging. And I got very irritated and then was like, okay, calm down, Kara. Just be right, essentially. Just do a good job. And so instead of being irritated by them. So that's it. Thank you so much. We appreciate it, Justin. And Matt, I'm still going to sue Scott. I mean really honestly how could he use my work without my permission So these are famous last words but you know it something I learned from Warren Hellman who was a mentor of mine Hellman and Friedman I about to turn 50 as you know No. And in my entire career. Everybody go look at the internet for that age. It's wrong. It's wrong. I can't believe everything. And also, I'm much more handsome in real life. But I have never sued or been sued by anybody. Me? Oh, I think Sean Hannity threatened to sue me. Hannity? Hannity spoiled you around? I think he sent one of those mad letters, you know? And what I always tell young entrepreneurs who get all ginned up when some employee or other company does something wrong, I'm like, just don't work with them again. Yeah. Just don't work with them again. Yeah. Yeah. I'll be curious if someone sues me over this book that's coming out. We'll see. I don't know. That's hard. That's really hard. Yeah. We'll see. I don't know. They shouldn't. I think I've made it impossible to do so. It doesn't mean they won't. By the way, I just have one number to give you, 1964. Anyway, that's the year Scott was born. Anyway, that's so not true. 74. I did not see Olga Corbett. I absolutely did not watch that on TV before the Brady Bunch in 1972. 1964. No, I absolutely didn't have my mom have to sneak into the house because they got divorced and gave me a Bain skateboard in 1972. His little eight-year-old Scott was watching his dad head off to bank stewardesses on Continental Airlines. Okay. No, that wasn't happening for me in 1972. Okay. Yeah, how did I get there? How did I get there? Into the deep, dark, fucked up mind of the dog. Where did that decade go? That's a moment in history. 1964. I give you 1964. Anyway. Whatever. Naked, I look like I was born in 65. Okay. I was born in 1962, everybody, just so you know. Anyway, I don't mind getting my age because I am wise beyond my years, even still. Yeah, you have good hair. Yeah, I do. Those are some great questions. Send us more. If you've got a question you're curious about, go to nymag.com slash pivot and submit it for the show. We love our questions and we love more and we love the ones that disagree with us too. Okay, Scott, now we're going to do some New Year's resolutions. What is yours?

Scott Galloway: Mine are just very basic. I'm really trying to lean into my relationships. I'm spending a lot of time with old friends. I was at F1 with Mike Baruch, who I've known for 42 years. Yeah, tell us about that. It was just, you know, Vegas, F1, parties, gambling, alcohol. I was with my friend Jason Mudrick, who I've known for 20 years. I've just decided I'm going to try and spend a ton of time doing interesting, you know, things with people I care about. I'm just leaning in. And I'm just, I want to spend as much, I just want to spend as much time with my friends and just wait for the ass cancer. Is that wrong? I thought I'd salt it up. I was sounding a little too Hallmark there. I was sounding just a little too Hallmark there. No ass cancer in 2024. What are you looking forward to in 2024? I'm going to pursue this for a second. What am I looking forward to? Yeah, something you're doing besides hanging out with me this year quite a bit. I'm going to take my kids down the Nile. I'm one of those floating boat things in Egypt. I'm going to go to the, I think it's the Euro Nationals and a big soccer tournament, football tournament with my boys. Yeah, I got a lot. What about the party in Scotland? Yeah, I got my 50th in Scotland. I got my book coming out. I'm excited about our podcast. Yeah. You know what, Cara? What? I'm like, I would just like nothing to change. I would like my boys to stop growing up. I'd like them, if I could, actually, I'd like them to go back two or three years and then just stop them, just freeze them cryogenically. Yeah, okay. But yeah, things are pretty good right now. Things are pretty good. How about you? What's my resolution? I do, too. I feel pretty good about things. We're doing a renovation of our house. I'm excited about that. Resolution, more of the same. You know, I also have a book coming out and we have a lot of really cool stuff on the books, I think. You know, I think it's going to be a fun year, actually. The election, of course, makes me nervous, but I'm going to just try to lean into, like, let's think that people, karma does count and that people do get their comeuppance. And so I hope, I believe in the better nature of this country. So I'm going to do that and not try to be in a doom scroll about that really hard because I think you can get sucked into that really badly. Let me ask you something about this. For the first time in my life, you know, geopolitical events, things, you know, kind of outside my direct circle have rattled me. This war in the Middle East has really, like, upset and rattled me for the first time. Do you find that more or less as you age, this type of things a bit outside of your control rattle you or have you been able to compartmentalize them? I'm struggling with those. I think they rattle me, and I realize they're out of my control, some of them. So I think it's good to be rattled, even at an older age. You can't not be rattled by it. You know, I was really struck by a video that Sheryl Sandberg put up about the rapes of Israelis and the attacks on women. You know, it was very emotional and appropriately so. And so I wasn't surprised by it, but I think she dug deep in this case and she was appropriately rattled as she should have been. I think we all should really understand things like that much better. But at the same time, recognize it can't put you into an action. I think that's what it does. And so if you feel bad about Donald Trump or something around the world, I've been saying this to a lot of my friends who are really upset about the situation. in the Mideast, like do something, then do something. And it doesn't have to be go over there. It doesn't have to be something. Do something actionable that will move something forward, I think, is just go out and talk to someone you disagree with, even that, or get into a community, get off of social media, you know, stop doom scrolling. And so I think that's one thing I'm really trying to do. I'm not one of those people that flounces off of something like X or Twitter or whatever they want to call it, because I use it for my purposes. But I want to do a lot less flouncing and a lot more things, I would say. You know, that kind of thing. Anyways, I went and got one of those full body scans. And they said, you're in perfect health. And I'm like, but I pee three times a night. And they're like, we're not miracle workers. Yes. Yeah, especially at your young age. Yeah, I'm 49. It all falls apart. It all falls apart, Carol. I'm getting you one of those cards. You know, when you get turned 60, there's all these sort of black edge cards that like talk about funerals. That's what happens when you turn 60. I'm going to be bringing one of those to Scotland, just so you know. Don't cut. Okay. Anyway, that's the show. Again, we appreciate our listeners so, so much. We really do. And we love when you come up to us. We do love it. And we love your letters. And even when you disagree with it and you're mad at us about, you know, whatever you're mad at us about, typically a dick joke. But other things, you are very thoughtful and we appreciate it. And