AI Summit, U.S. v. Google, and Drew Barrymore Backlash

[Podcast Intro]

Kara Swisher: Not all journalism is the same. Take The Guardian. Our coverage has something unique: fierce independence. Nobody owns us or tells us what we can and can't say. So we're free to report the whole picture. We connect what's happening in Washington to the rest of the globe, expose corruption wherever we find it, and give fresh perspective on everything from wellness and soccer to culture, the climate and more. Read, watch and listen to The Guardian for free at theguardian.com.

Scott Galloway: AI agents are getting pretty impressive. You might not even realize you're listening to one right now. We work 24/7 to resolve customer inquiries. No hold music, no canned answers, no frustration. Visit sierra.ai to learn more.

Kara Swisher: Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway: And I'm Scott Galloway, back in London for the first time in 10 weeks.

Kara Swisher: How's the weather?

Scott Galloway: It's spectacular here. I mean, it's just beautiful.

Kara Swisher: Do you want to know what I've done the last couple of days?

Scott Galloway: No, tell me.

Kara Swisher: Okay. Yesterday, I was in Atlanta speaking to the good people at Chick-fil-A. By the way, the most successful restaurant in the world right now in terms of dollars per square foot. It's literally just... and also I was thinking about you. They're actually quite progressive. I think they got a pretty bad rap.

Kara Swisher: Do they? I don't know. I don't like takeout places, but okay. Yeah, go ahead.

Scott Galloway: My sons love it. My sons go there all the time and eat up the whole place. No, I'm at the management team. It's pretty diverse, pretty progressive. Anyways, they're literally the most... because they're private and they don't announce their earnings and CNBC doesn't go apeshit about it. This thing is just a phenomenon. I was there, then I got on a plane from Atlanta to London and went and spoke to the folks at IMG, which is that monster sports management company, division of William Morris Endeavor. And I listened to a bunch of guys in consensual hallucination talk about how cable and ESPN was coming back. But it was lovely. People that are really friendly and really nice.

Kara Swisher: Good. Okay.

Scott Galloway: Talked a lot about Premier League. Anyways, that's what I've been up to. What have you been up to? Scott's on a world tour.

Kara Swisher: Oh, I've been reading the Isaacson book for my interview today, which is going to happen later. I've just been doing stuff.

Scott Galloway: With Walter?

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Scott Galloway: Well, Cal, I don't agree with your assessment of my scribe. We're going to have a selection. We're going to count the votes. That guy literally looks like Ronald Reagan and James Carville mated. If James Carville and Ronald Reagan had a baby, it would look and sound like Walter Isaacson.

Kara Swisher: No. All right. Okay. Just so you know, the Chick-fil-A controversy was that its CEO directed a lot of money to charitable donations to anti-LGBTQ organizations. Then in 2019, a couple of years ago, they made major changes to its charitable foundation and ended the donations. The CEO, Dan Cathy, the founder, made some homophobic comments that he justifiably got real strong pushback. But what's interesting is that it's been like a poltergeist haunting them for the better part of 11 or 12 years. And if you go down there, granted, they're really nice to be so biased, but if you go down there and you meet the management team and you just kind of get a feel for them, they're more progressive than a lot of companies.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, it's complicated. But that CEO definitely had some issues, as they say. And that said, my sons knew about this many years ago and they kept going, "Mom, I'm all for gay and lesbian rights, but the chicken is delicious. Sorry, Mom." They said, "We have tried them all," and they would eat it. And I said, "OK, you make your choices, sons." They also love In-N-Out, who had a little bit of a controversy around some biblical things, or the prayer on the Psalms or whatever it is.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, yeah. Everybody should deal with these things the way they want to instead of getting all exercised. I don't happen to like fast food that much. I like a McDonald's hamburger every now and then, a cheeseburger. But that's about it. Not very often. Anyway, we have a lot to talk about. What have I been doing? I don't know. I'm headed to a wedding this weekend. My friends from sixth grade are getting married, second marriages. And I'm very excited to go to their wedding.

Scott Galloway: That's nice. Princeton, where I grew up.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, it's nice. And then I'm going to another wedding the next weekend with two lovely young lesbians who are going to run the world someday. They're amazing. So we're doing that. A lot of weddings.

Scott Galloway: Well, you know what they say about second marriages. It's a triumph of hope over experience.

Kara Swisher: No, they're great people. They're going to be very happy. They know each other their whole lives. So I'm very excited for that. It's going to be fun. And I wish them all well, both couples very well.

Scott Galloway: You know the difference between a first wife and a second wife?

Kara Swisher: Oh, my God.

Scott Galloway: The second wife has real orgasms and fake jewelry.

Kara Swisher: Oh.

Scott Galloway: Sorry. Sorry. Anyways. I knew you couldn't pull out. Could you?

Kara Swisher: I'm not even going to touch that one. All right. OK, don't. Try not to touch anything, Scott. That's my philosophy for you in general. We want to keep the show going. We have a lot to talk about. Big tech's big gathering on Capitol Hill, obviously, speaking of not touching. Google's landmark antitrust trial and a new job in journalism that Scott would be perfect for, which we will get to first. Scott, I predict this may be your last episode of Pivot. USA Today, and apparently the Tennessean, is looking to fill positions for a Taylor Swift reporter and one for a Beyoncé reporter. The two roles will be focused on capturing the musical, cultural and economic impact of the two icons.

Scott Galloway: Wow.

Kara Swisher: I mean, Scott, this is your opportunity. How far are you along in the interview process? Be honest with me.

Scott Galloway: Well, I got through the interview process, but similar to my first wife, they claimed I had revenge issues, to which I responded, "We'll see about that."

Kara Swisher: That's good. It's not good. That wasn't good at all. No, that wasn't good. But what do you think about this? I mean, that's interesting. They are economic powerhouses, these two.

Scott Galloway: The juggernauts.

Kara Swisher: The juggernauts. I would add Barbie in there, too. But what do you think about having a Taylor Swift reporter? I mean, you're going to forget more about journalism than I'm going to know. What do you think?

Scott Galloway: It's a little specific. I think probably if you're in Nashville, I guess. But she's sort of such a... she won everything at the VMAs and was totally elegant in doing so. She really is one of these central figures right now. That's not going to last, presumably. There'll be other artists and everything like that. I think to have a major artist's reporter, sure, right? And who are... yes, I see that. And of course, right now you would focus on her and Beyoncé, but I don't know. It seems... I mean, it's not a fan one. It's not to say who she's dating or things like that. It's about cultural and economic impact.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. So when I first read this, to be honest, I thought it was a head fake just trying to get a press release for USA Today. Although I did get a scoop about supposedly her 45 ex-boyfriends collaborating on an album.

Scott Galloway: Do you know the title of the album?

Kara Swisher: No. What is it?

Scott Galloway: "Look What You Made Me Do." Maybe it's about you.

Kara Swisher: Oh wow. Okay. Oh god. You know, you're pushing against the tide with hating on Taylor. I can see a reporter about it, like a cultural or... I don't know, we call it a lifestyle reporter. But devoting a reporter to one artist? I don't know. Doesn't that kind of signal the downfall? Isn't that ringing the bell at the top of their career?

Scott Galloway: They'll do well with it. People can love Taylor Swift and Beyoncé content and they have huge fan bases. I think the fan economy is more and more interesting. I think that would be like, how does the fan economy work and how does the marketing work? You could yield a million stories about really interesting things and go everywhere, not just influencers, but all kinds of places. Because I think the fan economy deserves it.

Kara Swisher: In any case, the Apple event sort of came and went. What did you think of that, Kara?

Scott Galloway: I just watched their... Did you watch their Mother Nature video they did?

Kara Swisher: Oh, about how they're going to try and solve climate change?

Scott Galloway: Yes. Yeah, they had... what's her name? She's a great actress. Octavia Spencer. She was playing Mother Nature. And Apple offices are already carbon neutral. "This building is carbon neutral? Yeah, we do it with a mix of clean energy and eliminating greenhouse emissions. It's kind of like if you were to... You're seriously explaining carbon neutrality to Mother Nature? Right. No, I'm sorry. You want to tell me how photosynthesis works too? Don't." Tim Cook was in it, super awkward. A lot of the executives actually were in it. And it was all about how they'd come up to speed on their sustainability stuff. And Mother Nature came to check on them.

Kara Swisher: Did it work?

Scott Galloway: I don't know. No. No. I wish it did. You know what I mean? I see the... it was a good idea on paper. But I don't know. It just wasn't a lot. The new phones, I think the biggest news, of course, is better cameras, as always. And the cameras are spectacular. This USB charging and the action button, I guess. This is the USB-C. Everything is changing to USB-C. Some people think they were forced by Europe, but it's the direction everything's going. Everyone should be having the same chargers instead of the lightning ones. USB-C. Adapters will now be available on Apple's website for $29. This is a little dongle you're going to put on. Following the event, Apple stock dropped 2%. Time taping remains down. It's been getting pummeled. I think people are wondering whether you're going to buy one.

Kara Swisher: I haven't rushed to buy one. I don't quite see the point. My phone is in good shape. There's only so many times people can go to the well here with this thing. Although I always upgrade, but not necessarily as quickly. I don't know. What do you think?

Scott Galloway: This felt to me like the least exciting or buzzy new iPhone. It was just... a different charging port. It felt sort of... I'll get it because I want the newest one. And I like to... it's something I just do when they come out with a new one. But what's remarkable here... I mean, you said a couple of things and there's been a lot of headlines around the stock not crashing. Although it's been up for the year. Let's be clear. It's from 125 year to date to 175 and over one year. It's like tripled in the last five. I mean, people would pray for that stock performance. Last month, it's down. Last six months, it's slightly down. I would argue for the last 10 years, it's arguably the best managed company. They have massively increased their services revenue, which is high margin, despite the fact that they don't sell as many phones. This year they may pass Samsung. An iPhone user is worth something like seven to ten times more than an Android user. At the IMG thing, I said, "Apple could buy Disney for a 5% dilution." One company is trading at $3 trillion, Disney is at $150 billion. And the guy correctly said... this really interesting guy starting the British Basketball League, they're starting a basketball league here. He said, "Why would Apple want to buy Disney and take on that headache? Why wouldn't they just continue to charge 30% if they want to download the Hulu or the Disney Plus app?" But yeah, it's Apple. They've done... whenever anything looks like it's flattening, they do a great job of taking capital and finding other means of growth.

Kara Swisher: I just don't... It's just how many times can you pull a rabbit out of a hat? That's all. They really are quite... they have kept it going for a long time. And this action button on the side is interesting. It's always interesting. I just think I have not rushed to buy it yet, which is interesting. And I don't know why. I just... moving my stuff over is a pain. I think that's one of the reasons. I probably will.

Scott Galloway: You can customize what this action button does. It's just making it easier and easier to use. It replaces that ring vibrate thing.

Kara Swisher: So, yeah, okay, good.

Scott Galloway: What I would be really interested to know is that, for the first time, Apple's now getting in the crossfire of this non-shooting war, this trade war. I'd be really curious to know, because I think Tim Cook is just an enormous brain, to what extent have they diversified their supply chain away from China? Because I remember waking up three years ago... I was on the board of Urban Outfitters because, you know, I'm quite important, Kara. And we were talking... we woke up one day and realized that a scary percentage of our tops were made in a small radius outside of Shenzhen, wherever it was, that was closed because of COVID. Supply chain diversification, or trying to create a more heterogeneous supply chain for diversity, has been just the call sign of supply chain officers. And now, I think just recently, Mexico surpassed China for the first time, or renewed or recaptured their crown as the leading exporter into the United States. But almost every board I've been on or talked to, they're all trying to figure out how to diversify their China exposure. They definitely are exposed more than almost anyone except for Tesla. Tesla and Apple are the two companies that are most exposed in that country.

Kara Swisher: I do think they have to. I think that's what I would focus in on rather than these sort of upgradeable products. I mean, the same thing with the Apple Watch Series 9. I don't think I'm going to... it looks the same. It has a brighter screen. The Series 8 is still pretty good. It's a lot of same. Actually, the data... I just found the data. So 80% of Apple products are manufactured in China, but it's 19% of the revenues. What would really hurt Apple is if they started clamping down on their operations in China. I think actually there are more Apple employees in China than there are in the U.S. So while on the demand side, it's obviously important, it's one-fifth the revenue, it's four-fifths on the supply chain side of their product.

Scott Galloway: Well, that's what's made them so strong.

Kara Swisher: China did say that it has an issue, any ban on Apple's iPhone, by the way, but they had security issues. It's super confusing, just for people to understand, is that the Chinese government said that. "We've always been open to foreign companies and welcome to seize opportunities and share the fruits of China's economic development. Many media reports on security incidents of the Apple's iPhone attaches great importance for information and cybersecurity." So they're raising these security issues after this journal story about banning the iPhone. They dropped the shares. I mean, it's obviously they're in the middle. We're in the middle of an issue with China. And it's not one that's going away anytime soon. It's actually the next century. This is what it's going to be about. We will not be around for the last part of that century. But in any case, something that is here now is Drew Barrymore facing backlash after returning to work on her show during the ongoing strikes. She posted an explanation on Instagram saying the show return is in compliance with not discussing or promoting any struck work. She's technically correct. Talk shows fall under different contracts than those expired when a deal is not reached. But the WGA East responded on social media saying the show was indeed a WGA-covered struck show itself and is returning in violation of strike rules. Picketers are assembling outside the broadcast center where taping new episodes has begun. Barrymore is a member of SAG-AFTRA and initially stood in solidarity, stepping down from hosting the MTV Movie Awards in May. Of course, she's not the only one. Your friend Bill Maher announced in real time he will also be returning without writers or writing. Maher has already caused controversy surrounding the strike, calling the demands "kooky." He was relatively calm in his explanation. He said more people are involved. He won't stay calm, of course, but he said more people are involved. "We're not going to do, I guess, the beginning monologue and some of the stuff he does from the desk and some of the essay stuff." So he's not going to do writing, so it'll be more panels. Stephen King immediately wrote, "This is how strikes are broken." I don't know. What do you think?

Scott Galloway: I was supposed to go on right before the strike. I would not appear on the show, I would have to say. I would have real issues with appearing on the show. It just seems... I get... just for people's context, in the last strike, I think they went back six weeks after, in the middle of the strike. A lot of the hosts did return without writing. So it's happened before. So I'm not sure. People don't like Bill Maher too. That's an issue of it. So what do you think?

Kara Swisher: I think this is the beginning of the end. If you look at the strike... I think it was the UAW and UPS that got solved because both had incentives to end the strike and UPS was making money. And if you look at... I believe the strike that the UAW is threatening... actually it was the Teamsters and UPS, excuse me... but the strike that the UAW is threatening against the automobile companies, I think that'll get solved because I think their demands, while they're asking for a lot, their demands are fairly easy to understand. "We want to make more money." And also the automobile industry, including the domestic automobile industry, is fairly healthy. So they have incentive. Both sides have incentive to solve the problem. And there's juice to squeeze here. Whereas if you look at the writers, they chose to strike in a period of absolute disruption and falling revenues from the people they were striking against.

Scott Galloway: Not all of them, but yes. But go ahead.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. Because Netflix was doing rather well and tech companies.

Scott Galloway: Netflix is doing well. And tech companies separately because economics don't matter.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, but show me the companies they're picketing in front of and I'll show you a company whose stock is at a 10-year low and whose operating margins have been crushed. Viacom's off 75%. Disney's at a 10-year low. Time Warner, Warner Brothers Discovery... if you look at the debt, it's basically off 50%. I mean, anyway, they just... that's an example of a strike that was totally miscalculated, mishandled, and taking too long.

Scott Galloway: I would agree. I think the length of this... they had to expect that these people, because they had in previous strikes, these talk shows especially had... And you can't just watch the anti-union shops like Greg Gutfeld grab everything. It'll be interesting to see if this group of people that's doing this podcast of talk show hosts are going to... which one's going to fall first? Strike Force 5.

Kara Swisher: Look, I was meeting with several producers and writers, and they were talking amongst themselves that they're thinking about going back to work and then agreeing to comply retroactively with whatever the conditions are of a negotiated strike.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I definitely am hearing that. You can just see the atmospherics, Kara. People are fed up. And here's the problem: the people who are most powerful on the writing side are the ones that don't need new conditions from the strike.

Kara Swisher: Well, they're also getting... showrunners are starting to get together. I have no number of showrunners and they're starting. It's cracking. That's the bottom line. That's it. I mean, one wrote me, "It's a mess." The funniest tweet, though, was Katie Delaney: "For every surprising Drew Barrymore is an equal but opposite unsurprising Bill Maher." It is interesting that she went first. That gave him cover because everyone's like, "Oh, it's Bill Maher being Bill Maher." But it is. You're right. It's a break. And these showrunners are where the rubber is going to meet the road because they are starting to really feel the pressure. The fact that they haven't... I mean, here's the tail wagging the dog. If you didn't know there was a writer's strike, would you know?

Scott Galloway: Yeah, no.

Kara Swisher: Would you know? And if consumers don't miss you, then you have no leverage. And these guys have no leverage.

Scott Galloway: Well, their whole point is eventually you'll know. You'll feel it. Eventually. We're over 130 days into the strike. And look what happened with the Teamsters and UPS. Before they went on strike, it was settled. And I believe... I think you're going to see a strike with the UAW. I don't think it's going to go very long because guess what? Their demands are pretty clean and rational. And the people striking have leverage.

Kara Swisher: Well, we'll see. That said, I'll be interested to see who goes on the show. Would you?

Scott Galloway: I don't think I would. No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I was thinking about that. Not that Drew Barrymore would ever call me, but if Bill Maher... I don't think I would. And you know why? Because I'm in a position of privilege. And that is I don't need the show. But there are a lot of people who need the money. And I'll give you an example. My first wife was this high character person with these Midwestern values. And she got it from her parents and specifically her mother. And her mother was a school teacher. And her mother... I remember the LAUSD teachers union had struck two or three times in her career. She'd been teaching, I don't know, the seventh or the eighth grade. Can you imagine how hard it is to teach 12 and 13-year-olds? She'd been teaching for 40 years, and she never would... she like missed one day. And when they would strike, she would just... she wouldn't go on strike. She was like, "I'm here to teach kids." And she just refused to ever engage in not showing up to work and teaching kids. And I think that... I think you're going to see... she did it for the right reasons, but I think you're going to see a lot of these people in the union decide for a bunch of reasons that they're going back to work.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. I don't know why I brought up Barbara Spencer. Anyways, hope she's well. Nice woman. Let me say, I think Drew Barrymore is the more important figure here because she's well-liked. And she gave her... people are calling her a scab all over Twitter and social media. But I think Bill Maher, everyone's like, "Oh, yeah, of course, Bill Maher would do it. He's such a pain in the ass."

Scott Galloway: See, I think it's entirely flipped. I think Bill Maher is a force. His show is one of the longest running shows.

Kara Swisher: No, but I mean, I'm talking about when people go, "Oh, she's doing it." Oh, I see what you're saying. You mean they expect it from Bill, they don't expect it from Drew.

Scott Galloway: Right, yes.

Kara Swisher: They're like, "Of course he's going to do it. He does controversial, contrarian things." With her, it's a little different from a perceptible. People will be like, "Well, she's a nice person. She's not really a scab." You know what I mean? I think it has more damage than Bill Maher. I do.

Scott Galloway: It's just so funny, the difference between perception and reality. And that is... I've been on Maher three times and I've gotten to know a little bit the staff or a little bit about them. I have never seen so many people who have been with one person for 10, 20, 30 years.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, they have. I mean, he is very loyal to his staff and his staff is very loyal to him. He is.

Scott Galloway: I would say that some of them are worried about his sort of rightward shift. I've heard that from people there. That they think he's gone red pill.

Kara Swisher: A little bit. And, you know, a little bit. But it doesn't really matter. Who cares? If you like him, you like him. If you don't, you don't.

Scott Galloway: Well, he's worried about your leftward shift.

Kara Swisher: It's not a leftward shift. I'm such a capitalist. Anyway, I don't... but I wouldn't go on either show. I just was like, let's just let this thing settle. I wish... I hope they settle. People I know, not on just that show, but a lot of them are really suffering.

Scott Galloway: They 100% are. What does it mean for a large swath of people who've been out of work for 100 days, three and a quarter months, and they weren't expecting it?

Kara Swisher: Yeah, this is how strikes... this is how strikes are broken, as Stephen King said. Anyway, let's get to our first big story. Well, there wasn't a cage match, but Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg and the biggest names in tech descended on the Capitol Wednesday for a special AI forum organized by Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer. They all, of course, had a sleepover at my house. No, they didn't. No, they didn't. The 60 senators attended the closed door meeting with topics including open source models, security, privacy. Musk and Zuckerberg were seated at opposite ends of the table. I mean, honestly, who cares? Here's what Musk told reporters after the summit: "I think it was a very civilized discussion, actually, among some of the smartest people in the world. So I thought Senator Schumer did a great service to humanity here. I think we'll... I think something good will come of this. I think this meeting may go down in history as being very important for the future of civilization." God, he's such a drama queen. OK, fine. Whatever. It's a meeting. I thought... I want this meeting to be more than a press release. I suppose they're a useful conversation. I think I'm in the same camp as... of all things, Josh Hawley and Senator Warren are all in the same camp. I don't know why it had to be private. Warren said, "These tech billionaires want to lobby Congress behind closed doors with no questions asked. That's just plain wrong." Senator Marsha Blackburn, not exactly a friend of Elizabeth Warren, said in a statement, "Congress has always conducted its business in the sunshine. Today's forum should have been no different." And Senator Josh Hawley called it "a cocktail party for big tech." They all raised their hands when they said there should be regulation. Elon said, apparently, "It's important for us to have a referee." One of the contentions was open source systems that the public can access. Zuckerberg is pushing that, but some people think it's dangerous. Zuckerberg said open source democratizes access to these tools and helps level the playing field and foster innovation for people and businesses. He has an argument to make. What do you think?

Kara Swisher: I think I just... well, I disagree with the statements about sunshine. I think it was actually probably much more productive behind closed doors, because whenever it's on camera, the people looking to raise money off of YouTube clips by doing identity politics and accusing them of being billionaires—Senator Warren—or on the right, saying that they're censoring and not actually getting anything done, not actually asking questions to learn, but asking questions for a gotcha moment, hoping that it goes on YouTube and TikTok.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, and raise money.

Kara Swisher: These things are circuses. They're entertainment. So I think the conversation was just more civil and more productive out of the glare of fundraising and cameras. And I thought Elon Musk sounded about as reasonable as he can sound there, except for the civilization thing, which I agree with you is just more catastrophizing and techno-narcissism—that technology is the key to saving or destroying humanity all the time.

But this is where I'm cynical. I think they all understand theoretically that there needs to be regulation here. And then they deploy their army of lobbyists to make sure that the regulation doesn't get in the way of their earnings. So I'm all for it. And I hope that they bring in incredibly—I've always thought government officials are underpaid. And the fact that they're underpaid leads them to be total whores so they can feather their bed post their government service. But also we need more compensation to attract the best and brightest at a young age, especially staffers who understand AI.

I'm hopeful. I don't know. There were so many people there—60 senators and all these people. I don't know how public it is. And so there's still peacocking going on in these things. Right. So I don't know. I just feel like they initially did not have a very diverse—I don't mean by people, but in terms of people who have different opinions at this thing. And they brought more academics in who are more worried. I think it's fine to have an airing of grievances or whatever you want to call it. But action is really what I'm more interested in.

Of course, others—Sam Altman and Alphabet CEO Sundar Pichai—talked to reporters about AI creating positive changes in the labor market with far more great new jobs than before. Sundar's proposals include encouraging higher use of AI in government and advancing a "workforce transition agenda that benefits everyone." But action is what I want to hear about.

Schumer, who blocked a lot of legislation around privacy, talked about a timeline for getting laws in the books, telling reporters it can't be days or weeks, nor should it be years. It will be a general category of months. But Senator Blumenthal said you need to do legislation and learn at the same time. Senator Cruz said Congress is rushing to regulate a technology they don't understand.

Schumer—I'm not on board with him. He did block a lot of the Klobuchar stuff. Everyone blames him. Real smart people do. So I don't know. I want some action.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, let's be hopeful. But I feel like we keep getting our heart broken. They just fly in and fly out.

Kara Swisher: I don't know. I just feel like I don't care if they do it behind—I do care if they do it behind. I think I paid for this mic, as Ronald Reagan said. So I would like the mic to be open. But I get the peacocking problem.

What I would like before this legislation, if they're really honest about the need for regulation, I'd like them all to raise their hands and come to a gentle person's agreement that they're going to find a way to watermark AI and they're not going to use AI-generated imagery pre the presidential election leading up to the election. There's some legislation. But the legislation likely won't happen. And I think we're about to see the mother of all AI-generated misinformation Lollapalooza in Q1 or Q2 of next year as Putin realizes the fastest blue line path to victory in Ukraine is to get Trump reelected. And they'll start generating enormously damaging images and deep fakes and videos and content that's been AI-tested that depositions Biden and Harris. I think that it's going to come and then all the big tech firms will cash their check and come November the 5th, they'll decide that they should have taken more action and wring their hands and say, "We're sorry, we need to do better in 2028."

Scott Galloway: Agreed. I'd just like to see one piece of legislation. Remove it from 230 protections. If it's AI-generated and you elevate it—if you algorithmically elevate AI-generated content—it no longer has the shield of 230. Let's start there.

Kara Swisher: You don't think there should be a tech department that regulates tech just like the FCC?

Scott Galloway: Yeah, but that's not going to happen in the next six months. That might happen. And I do think there might be at some point a head of AI in NATO and an AI person. But by the time they inform the president, by the time they go on their listening tour, you're talking about legislation maybe in two years. We need Q1 and Q2 when the GRU, when Putin realizes it's easier to spend $7 billion than $70 billion to try and swing the American election. And they have a lot of scientists. They're very smart. They're very strategic.

You want to see what AI does? We're going to know what it did after the election when all of a sudden it comes out. And by the way, it worked just fine with the shitty technology. Propaganda works.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, we'll see. Let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about Google going on trial and take a listener mail question about networking successfully.

[Ad Break]

Kara Swisher: Scott, we're back with our second big story. The first monopoly trial of the modern internet era is now underway: US v. Google. At the center of the case, did Google abuse its power and kill the competition by paying companies to be the default search engine on devices and platforms? The government says yes, with more than 90% of the market share. Google says it dominates because their product is just better. The trial is expected to last three months, with Google CEO Sundar Pichai and other executives expected to testify.

Sundar will be back. I wouldn't mind Sundar coming over for a sleepover. He can come to my house. He's a nice guy.

Scott Galloway: You like Sundar?

Kara Swisher: Yeah, he's a nice guy.

Scott Galloway: Who would I have over? I'd have Sundar, Sam, Reid Hoffman, I guess.

Kara Swisher: Who's your favorite tech? That's an interesting question. Who's Kara Swisher's favorite tech icon? That is a good question. Who would you not have a beer with because you don't drink?

Scott Galloway: Mark Cuban. Mark Cuban at this moment. I really enjoy him. I think he speaks his mind and we disagree often, actually.

Kara Swisher: He's not really a tech guy. I mean, sort of. I like Sundar. I like Satya. I have a whole chapter in my upcoming book about people I like. There's a number of them. Brian Chesky, I like.

Scott Galloway: I would argue, Kara, that a lot of journalists feel that way. And that's part of the reason they're CEOs. Susan Majiki, Sheryl Sandberg, Sundar Pichai. I think they make tens of millions because they're outstanding managers, but they make billions because they're heat shields for the mendacious fucks that have started those companies.

Kara Swisher: Ah, yes. Well, yes. Yes. That's about right. You got it right. I'm just talking about people on a personal basis. Anyway, it's okay to like or dislike them. It's fine. I think I'm with Christiane Amanpour, who just—of course, did 40 years at CNN.

Scott Galloway: She's been at CNN 40 years?

Kara Swisher: 40 years. "Truthful, not neutral." I love that. She's fantastic. She's great. She's amazing. She's the GOAT.

Anyway, the trial is expected to last three months. So, what do you think about this? What do you make of these arguments by the government and also Google? Another part of Google's argument is that their competition is not just other search engines, but companies like Amazon, DoorDash, Expedia. This is an argument Amazon uses, actually. "There's so much retail. It's not just us." What do you think? And a lot of people don't like all these payment numbers coming out. Apple certainly doesn't. You know, this $10 billion or $20 billion, whatever they spent.

Scott Galloway: I would argue one of two things happen. Either they find that the law—that in a court of law—that the DOJ does not have the right to break them up, which to me says they're either broken up, which I think will be the correct interpretation of the law. But if they decide they should not be broken up, I would argue we need new laws.

Kara Swisher: Well, it's a narrower case about these deals, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway: But OK, no one else can afford to pay Apple $20 billion to be the default search engine. And then no one else gets that level of data and can pull ahead of everybody and then spend $30 billion to lock up those key channels.

Let's try and bring it down to what impact this has on the world regardless of the laws or antitrust or monopoly abuse. Let's go stakeholder by stakeholder.

First, let's talk about shareholders because at the end of the day, shareholders usually decide these things. Anytime there's a breakup of companies like this, within a few years—much less 10 years—the shareholders benefit. The baby bells were all worth more than the original AT&T within a decade. When eBay spun PayPal, PayPal ended up being worth exponentially more. Shareholders win in breakups.

Let's talk about the employees. Employees' compensation goes up because now there's more firms that have to compete to rent their human capital.

Let's talk about the Commonwealth. I believe if YouTube and Meta were not monopolies, they would not be radicalizing young men or sending suicidal ideation images of pills, bottles, and razors because P&G would have the opportunity to advertise on platforms that aren't hurting young people.

Let's talk about the founders. Here's the only stakeholder that loses—the one that controls the company—because once you're worth $40 or $60 billion, you don't care about being worth $70 or $80. You want to sit on the iron throne.

So shareholders, the country, employees, the tax base, the number of startups, the venture capital ecosystem, innovation—every stakeholder wins in a breakup with the exception of the person who controls the company through dual-class shareholders. The breakup, distinct of the morality, distinct of monopoly abuse—the fastest way to oxygenate our economy on the tech side would be to break up these companies.

And if you want to talk about what ails our country, it's the fact that young people are making less money and everything has gotten more expensive. And one of the things that has gotten more expensive is the monopoly rents these firms are charging on corporations. Thank you for my TED Talk.

Kara Swisher: This is true. Yep. Thank you. I agree with you. I think this is 100%. I saw a lot of people yesterday from both sides of this case, and I've just interviewed John Cantor and others. The Google side, of course, is like, "Well, we're doing good things. La la la." And I keep saying 91%. I'm sorry. I don't know.

Scott Galloway: Well, you can have 91% and not be hurtful.

Kara Swisher: I'm like, can you? I just can't get past that number. And across the globe. And I don't care. They can make their arguments. "There's other search companies." There aren't. They never will happen. Neeva closed and they just won't happen. There's no reason for them. And these things do tend towards a network. Their argument—the government's argument that these deals couldn't be made by anyone—I think it's a pretty good one.

I don't know what they're going to do. Unwind them? Make it like an iPhone? I think probably what might happen is you get the iPhone and you're like, "Which of these do you want to use?" And then Google will be on there like a voting thing. But it doesn't matter at this point. It's too late.

Scott Galloway: But if you look at the history of antitrust, breakups work really well. But almost as effective is just the scrutiny you're under once the antitrust case is underway.

Kara Swisher: Why?

Scott Galloway: So initially, the Microsoft judgment to break up the company was overturned.

Kara Swisher: Very different case, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway: I'm talking about the effects of antitrust when there's an order or a remedy is to break up the company. And in the instance of Microsoft, it was overturned. However, the consent decree they ultimately ended up signing stopped them from bundling and putting small search companies out of business. Google was born of antitrust enforcement. If we didn't have a proud legacy in our nation of understanding that power corrupts and going in and breaking up companies when they become too powerful, we'd all be saying—I don't know, bang it.

Google, it is cynical from the outset for Google not to recognize that antitrust is why they are as powerful as they are.

Kara Swisher: No, Scott, they did it because they're better. They are better, too. By the way, they did create a great search engine. That's the problem.

Scott Galloway: Great. That's exactly right. But antitrust and breakup needs to be perceived not as punishment, but as recognition.

Kara Swisher: Right. But let me say, I don't think that's what's going to happen here. I don't think this has been made into a much smaller trial. You're comparing it to the Microsoft trial. One similarity is that it's a bench trial, which is not a jury trial. It's up to one person. Microsoft was Judge Penfield Jackson, Thomas Penfield Jackson. This is Judge Amit Mehta to make a ruling. Very well-regarded judge. By the way, I talked to both sides this last couple of days. They both think a lot of him. He was appointed by Barack Obama in 2014. He's been very careful. He's been very quiet, very thoughtful. I think they both think he's quite a good judge. So there's no yelling about that.

But it's one person who's going to decide this. And the question is, how much can he actually do that really matters? That's what most people were talking about—since it's so limited to distribution and not—there is another advertising case being investigated.

Scott Galloway: It's not a mega case.

Kara Swisher: It's not a mega case. And that's the thing. The Justice Department, Kenneth Dinser, said this case is about the future of the Internet. I think the future of the Internet was before when they had a chance to really do something. I'm not so sure they can do anything now.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, look, I think so many wonderful things would happen. If you forced—and I don't think this case directly, it might be a remedy—but say they forced Alphabet to spin YouTube. I think within 90 days at the first corporate offsite, the folks at an independent YouTube say, "How do we grow revenues? Let's create a text-based search company. We're really good at this." And then I think Google, as an independent company, goes, "Let's start another video-based search platform." And overnight, you have two credible players in video search and text-based search, which lowers the rents on corporations and creates more jobs.

Kara Swisher: Sure, but that's not an issue here.

Scott Galloway: But it's a remedy.

Kara Swisher: Is it of this one? No, it's not, actually. I don't think he can force this on them. Anyway, we'll see what happens here. It's going to go on. There's going to be a lot of these cases, whether it's Apple or Amazon and others. And the wheels of justice move very slowly. And it's too late.

OK, Scott, let's pivot to a listener question. You've got mail.

Scott Galloway: I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman. You've got mail.

Kara Swisher: [Reading] This question comes from Daniel. "Hi, Kara and Scott. Thank you for all your great work. Your podcasts are always insightful, inspiring and entertaining. I'm so lucky to get to attend Code this year, which is taking place in another week or so in California. Working as the head of a technical department at a large public media company in Scandinavia has been a dream. This has been a dream of mine for several years. I expect to be outgunned at the event with my current position, but I cannot wait to get to know people from the international tech world. Have you any advice for a 36-year-old European attending an event like this? Keep up the great work. Both of you have been an important inspiration for me, both personally and professionally. Kindly, Daniel."

Well, thank you for coming, Daniel. You know, it should have come last year, my last year. The big show. It was a big show.

Scott Galloway: It was a big show.

Kara Swisher: That was a big deal. Everybody was there.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, they were.

Kara Swisher: The business has definitely changed since I—frankly—innovated it many, many decades ago.

Scott Galloway: If you don't say so yourself.

Kara Swisher: I do say so myself. I think I did. I think everyone copied everything we did. But I got out of it, which is interesting. But talk about networking advice. There was a weird Wall Street Journal article saying people don't want to socialize after work, which I think is one of those trend stories. I'm like, really? Everybody? I just think people aren't with each other. Talk about networking advice, especially. You can do them at a conference or at work. It is important. There is something important to gatherings.

Scott Galloway: I do 30 minutes on this in my class in Brand Strategy under the "Brand is You" session I do.

First, let me just talk about on a very meta level—we're mammals. And one of the things that is really ailing our society is a total decline in third places. And while these third places are sequestered from most people who can't afford to come to these things, I think anything that gets people together and has random encounters—you see that person who worked—I met someone who works at Meta yesterday and I spent some time with her. And you just realize, for the most part, these are good people. And you meet people—I think I told you—I met the guy who's starting this UK basketball league. It's just inspiring. And we're going to go to a football game with our kids. It's important that we bump off of each other and smell and touch each other.

On a specific level as it relates to networking: if you think about brands and how brands are built, you could largely trifurcate it into pre-purchase branding—think of broadcast advertising before you engage with a customer. Then distribution—when you go into a store and you actually want to buy the product. And then post-purchase—what happens after you're part of the community.

Generally speaking, the first part—pre-purchase—is overinvested because people like to think, "If I just find the right cool people wearing black and I have a great new ad campaign by a guy named Don Draper, I can take my marginal product and increase share." That dog won't hunt. It is overinvested. The ROI on pre-purchase has declined dramatically.

Then Apple took its $6.5 billion of pre-purchase branding, stuck it into distribution, created 550 temples to the brand. And then the gangster of all of them—the tobacco industry—once it was illegal to do pre-purchase or in-store branding, moved to database marketing and Marlboro points and could then sense whether you were trying to give up smoking and started sending you points and coupons to keep you getting emphysema.

In terms of your own brand and your own personal networking, what is over-invested is how much emphasis you place on in-person. We're all obsessed with personal interactions and that's important. But in terms of where you invest for networking: one, the really smart networkers before the conference will get a list of everyone they want to meet and they'll ping them with a note. And they'll say, "Hi, I'm going to be at this conference, I'd really love to meet." And they do some pre-purchase investing. And then they're there and they work hard and they try to be charming. And then the other place people don't invest is post-purchase. You meet somebody and you follow up. "Hey, it was great to meet you." I just got a message today: "It was great to meet you. Do you want to catch an Arsenal game?" And I'm like, that's an easy yes. And I'm probably going to get to know this person.

So networking—people tend to focus too much on the in-person interaction. But the real ROI is in the pre-purchase—quick email, "I'm going to be at this conference, do you want to grab coffee?"—and then the post-purchase to follow up.

Kara Swisher: I love that, Scott. I was wondering where this was going and then you landed it. You landed that fucking airplane. I was like, where is he going with the pre-purchase, post-purchase, emphysema situation? But thank you for bringing emphysema into the conversation.

I'm a good networker, I guess. But I think you're right. One of the things I used to tell people—and I have showed up at a lot of events. I go to a lot of things, or I used to much more than I do now. But that's because I want to meet less people.

Scott Galloway: I am so with you. I feel so bad. I have a quick story about that. I saw Joanna Coles at my Cheers in New York at the Crosby Hotel. We're doing a power breakfast. And Joanna's like, "Scott, come over here. I can't wait to introduce you to all these really interesting people in London." I'm like, "I don't want to meet anybody." And the whole table just went quiet. I'm like, "I'm about my kids and writing. I do not want to meet anybody." And then I sat in my lunch. I met with this guy starting this super impressive thing. And the whole breakfast, I'm like, "God, that was so fucking rude." And I had to go back and say, "Joanna, I'm sorry. I just don't."

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I know. I'm with you, sir. This is what the two of us have to remember. We're in such a position of blessings that people come up to us. I literally don't have to approach anybody anymore. People come up to me and say hi, and they're really friendly and nice. And it's really important that you don't take that for granted and that you're not only really warm to people who come up to you, but occasionally—occasionally, what the hell—make an effort. Because it's so easy to become a bit of a snob and just lose your mojo and lose your friendliness and expect people to treat you as if you're famous or nice.

I find myself—I went to this dinner last night. I walked in. Everyone was sitting down at this IMG dinner. And I immediately walked out. And this young woman named Henny ran after me, grabbed me, sat me down, introduced me to people. And at the end of dinner, I'm like, this is so important that there's people like you that handle spoiled jerks like me.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, yeah. Well, people don't realize you're quite shy. You're quite shy, actually.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, but you know something? I wasn't when I needed to make money.

Scott Galloway: Right.

Kara Swisher: When I was younger and my ability to meet people was my ability to build wealth, I found the mojo to be friendlier.

Scott Galloway: You did. But I said as a person—people are always surprised when I say that he's actually a little shyer than you. They think you're standoffish sometimes. I'm like, no, he's shy. Don't mistake it.

Kara Swisher: I don't think it's either of those. I just don't like people, Kara.

Scott Galloway: Oh, okay. All right. All right. Well, then there you have it. "Perpetually Dissatisfied" by Walter Isaacson. That could be a book. People think I'm going to be so lively and entertaining and funny. And they're like, "Jesus Christ. He's so boring."

Kara Swisher: They do. You're like a comic—Johnny Carson was not funny.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, no, everyone in my life is like, "We wish you were that guy on the podcast."

Kara Swisher: I know, it's true. That's the way it goes.

Anyway, I think Scott's advice is excellent. I would say, I am very networky, but I tend to just ask a lot of questions of people, get to know them. And you never know where you're going to meet someone super interesting. That is one thing—I'm always like, "Oh, I didn't want to do that." And then I find some little tidbit.

I went to a party last night, two parties last night, actually, with Amanda. And I wanted to bring her because she works for The Washington Post in the opinion section. I'm like, "You could meet people that could maybe write things." You don't know who you're going to meet—very interesting viewpoints. And afterwards, we went to a party at the French embassy, which is the best place to go to a party ever in Washington. It was for Xfinity about the Olympics coming up in Paris. That's why they had it there. And I ran into four or five people I was really glad to hear different little things from. And it was interesting. I didn't want to go and then I was like, "Oh, I'm glad I went."

Anyway, come say hello to me, Daniel. I will be at Code. It takes place September 26th and 27th in California, as I said. You can still apply to attend at voxmedia.com slash Code 2023.

Scott Galloway: Oh, this was a big fucking ad? I feel so fooled.

Kara Swisher: No, it's not. No, no, you're not.

Scott Galloway: No, but it's actually a good question. No, it's not. I thought this was sincere. Does he even exist, or is this just a big marketing ploy?

Kara Swisher: Yes, it's Jim Bank, Daniel—a.k.a. Jim Bankoff. No, I think it's—no, but it is interesting. It's an interesting conference. "How can I network, and what is the premier technology conference taking place this year?"

No, you could—listen, let me just say, go to any of them. The Journal has one coming up. There's a whole bunch of them coming up. The Atlantic has one that looks interesting. Bloomberg is constantly having them. I have a lot of them. You go to whatever event you want. You do not have to come to Code. You can go to whatever you want. And like Scott, you go on Bill Maher if you really want to, but probably you won't be invited. Anyway, Scott will, but not you, Daniel.

But anyway, thank you for your question. If you've got a question of your own you'd like answered, send it our way. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT.

All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. I hope you're ready today.

[Ad Break]

Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. Would you like to go first?

Scott Galloway: You go first. I haven't thought about it yet.

Kara Swisher: Well, my win is Christiane Amanpour. She's just the GOAT. 40 years, still as sharp as a tack, still really doing it. She's been everywhere, all over the place. I think she has a real sense of moral outrage still, which I think is good especially around really terrible places she's been. And she's done some really serious on-the-ground reporting. I think she's just a legend.

Fails?

Kara Swisher: I don't think I have one. Let me think about it. You go next.

Scott Galloway: My win is Senator Mitt Romney. He's decided to step down at the adolescent age of 76. I think he's a really impressive, good man. Married for 53 years. He was a missionary in France. And actually, I don't know if you know this, I love Mormons. I absolutely love Mormons. I was raised with Mormons. A touch homophobic and racist. But other than that, I love the Church of Latter-day Saints. I grew up with Mormons and they were super into their family, super into their country, super a lot of emphasis on success and sports. It was just such a positive influence on me.

Anyways, Senator Romney, married 53 years, owes a life of public service combined with the guy was a baller professionally, Bain Capital. I think he was the founder of Bain Capital and then decided to go into public service. I think he's always demonstrated, regardless of what you think of his politics, a decent amount of grace and courage. And the Republican Party just no longer recognizes him.

I would recommend people to the Atlantic story. A guy's been following him for two years for a book. And I have to say it's quite some story. The book should be amazing. I didn't want to read a Mitt Romney book, but it looks fantastic. The guy's going in the way he came out. Representative Santos walked by him and Senator Romney said, "Young man, you should be ashamed of yourself." And it wasn't mean, he wasn't going on TikTok and calling him names, he said it to his face.

I think he's had a life of service and professional success and five sons, a five-decade-long marriage. We were talking about networking. I grew up with a lot of Mormons. I think mission and service are such fantastic training vehicles because, I mean, what do you get when you combine a Jehovah's Witness and a Mormon? I don't know, but I can't get this guy off my porch. It teaches them to be really aggressive and friendly and endure rejection. I think that is a gift for a young person.

I think every young person should be in a retail job where they face the public so they can endure people being rude to them and develop empathy for what it means to be serving people. Also, I think every young person should be forced to be in some sort of sales job. Because what it shows you is that you can survive rejection, and it gives you the mojo and the aggression you need to be successful. Mission is kind of that. You want to talk about rejection? Have you ever had missionaries knock on your door?

Kara Swisher: Yes, they do not stay long.

Scott Galloway: Oh, I invite them in. I love missionaries. Anyways, I regaled them with stories about how I played on the church softball team and that my first kiss was with Libby Pettit, who was in the church.

Kara Swisher: Oh, no.

Scott Galloway: That was literally as far as it went, see above Mormon.

Kara Swisher: Okay.

Scott Galloway: Anyways, going back to networking, I think at a young age to have that sort of international experience, learn another language. That's why I'm a big fan of national service.

So anyways, Senator Romney, I think he's lived a life of professional success, family, God. He's obviously a very spiritual man. Let me just say he's dropping the bombs. He said, "Why would anyone want to have lunch with J.D. Vance?" He's going after people. He's like, "I don't give a f***. I'm going to tell you all what I think," which I kind of like. I like Mitt Romney unplugged. But it's not mean-spirited. It comes from—he's not trying to raise money.

Kara Swisher: It's a little mean-spirited. It's really mean.

Scott Galloway: I think he believes these things. Read the piece. I think he believes them. I do. But let me say, I'm all there for it because I think he's dropping truth bombs. The nation would be in such a better place if it had more Republicans like Senator Mitt Romney.

Kara Swisher: That's right. There's no place for them anymore. The good ones leave. The terrible ones stay.

Scott Galloway: And also, most importantly, can you think of any 76-year-old as good-looking as Mitt Romney? He's in great shape. He's got great hair. Anyways, I just think he's a great role model in masculinity and service. And I think he's had an esteemed career. And not only that, and this goes to my fail, he inherited this incredible skill that has incredible dearth amongst our elected leaders, and that is he knows when to leave.

And that's my fail. I did the actuarial tables on our likely nominees on the Democratic and the Republican side. At this point, Joe Biden, every year, there's a 6% to 7% chance he's going to die that year. And there's a 4.5% to 5.25% chance mortality rate when you're at Trump's age. And Trump, you could probably dial up a little bit because he's obese. But again, he looks really robust at the same time. What does that mean? That means in the next six years, there's a 41% chance that Biden's going to die. And there's like a 37% chance that Trump's going to die. Meaning that in the next six years before the next president would be elected on Inauguration Day, January of '29, there is a two in three chance that one of them will die. And that's who we've decided we're going to bank the nation on.

So my win is Senator Mitt Romney and my fail is that unlike the good senator, these individuals don't know when to leave, even when it's probably the right thing to do for the country.

Kara Swisher: All right. There you have it. I do have a fail, actually. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is flying to Silicon Valley this week to meet with Elon Musk in an effort—let me read this—to help ease the escalating crisis over anti-Semitism. The meeting is the latest step in a campaign by Musk's Jewish friends and allies and executives at a social media company to stave off mounting controversy. Netanyahu has done this before when he repeated anti-Semitic tropes about Jewish financier George Soros. And this guy comes in and helps him get over it. It's kind of gross. I mean, I'm sorry. It just is.

Scott Galloway: Well, it's anti-Semitism meets fascism.

Kara Swisher: It's really weird that he would do this. Isn't Netanyahu trying to unwind the Supreme Court?

Scott Galloway: Yeah. They're trying to broker peace. And Joe Lonsdale, who co-founded Palantir, a friend of his, Linda Yaccarino, has gone to damage control mode. Why are they keeping helping this? Let's let it play out. These people just come in and try to assuage the situation. And Netanyahu, what a—this is—they are meeting. Their PR representatives are meeting. This is just such bullshit.

You know what I've been thinking a lot about, Kara? Speaking of stunts. Talk about stunts. That last paragraph you read of Isaacson's book, which said, look at his childhood and look how tough it is and kind of excusing his actions. I was actually thinking about you. I was saying, okay, they talk about how his father traumatized him. Your father died when you were five. And yet you figured out a way. I had a really bad stepfather. I had a very unfortunate childhood. But for some reason, it didn't end up in anti-Semitism. It didn't. I mean, it's just so ridiculous.

This is one of my questions for Walter. The different standards we set for people because they're billionaires. I just find this—I couldn't help it. I went and read that last paragraph and it felt like a reheated version of that Think Different commercial from the 90s from Lee Clow and Chaya Day, the crazy ones. And I'm like, that's what we're going to start doing? Because here's the thing, all life, all heroes, all villains comes down to comic books. Every comic book is born of childhood trauma. But here's the decision you have. The superheroes are born of trauma. They're the son of orphans. Batman, Bruce Wayne was the son of orphans. But the villain is someone who experiences childhood trauma and turns it into hate. Childhood trauma is a reason to give people empathy, but it doesn't justify anti-Semitism or misogyny.

Kara Swisher: I agree. I don't get it. I don't get why everybody—I don't. Let me read this quote. "It's clear Twitter's drop-off in ad revenue started months ago as a result of changes the platform made to ad formats," said Sarah Livingston, a marketing analyst consultant. "Has nothing to do with the ADL." Another advertising executive who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe industry conversation said there's been a 75% drop-off in number of people who click on ads since the acquisition of the company. The person said the ADL has not been pressuring advertisers to stop spending on the platform lately.

This is such—and for Netanyahu running in and these friends trying to—this is what they spend their f***ing time doing. Doing this rather than fixing the actual problem. It's making sure that he doesn't look that way. Maybe they should make sure he doesn't talk like that. And so I'm sorry, Linda and Joe, stop it. Please stop it. It's not—it's so wrong on every aspect. But you fly in anyone you want to whitewash what is a bad situation.

And in general, this is not just an Elon thing. It's a lot of people in tech as I reflect on it. They just never deal with the actual problem. They deal with making them look better. I just—it's such bad parenting. I don't know what else.

Scott Galloway: If my jokes become profane and inappropriate enough, will you bring in Trudeau? And who's the prime minister of New Zealand?

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I know. Exactly.

Scott Galloway: And I'll give you this one quote from one of his helpers. "He doesn't hate Jews, but he's a fighter. And when you punch him, he's going to punch back." Oh, f*** you. Part of who he is is an aggressive force of nature. He doesn't understand the second order effects. He's a 52-year-old man. He should understand the second order.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, just fix the problem. Fix the problem and stop. And, you know, one of my favorite—I'll tell you my favorite person in Silicon Valley over the many years is a guy named Jim Barksdale. He ran Netscape and he had a deal with giant toddler Marc Andreessen during those days. One of the things he said—he had a bunch of aphorisms. He's from the South and I actually had dinner with him and Walter Isaacson once. He said, "Just remember, Kara," and he used to say this to people at Netscape, "to keep the main thing the main thing." That was his big business broma. And I was like, exactly. Let's keep the main thing the main thing, which was we know what the main thing is.

Scott Galloway: So anyway, there you go. Jim Barksdale, legend.

Kara Swisher: What is Jim Barksdale up to?

Scott Galloway: Oh, you know, he's retired. He lives down in Mississippi, I think. He's older. He's a wonderful man. He was my favorite. And what a good man.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, that's it. That's the show. We'll be back on Tuesday with more Pivot. Scott, please read us out.

Scott Galloway: Today's show is produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Brandon McFarlane engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Miel Severio, and Gatti McBain. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Happy 16th birthday, Alec. Your birth was the best thing that ever happened to me.

Kara Swisher: Oh, happy birthday, Alec. Thank you.