Biden vs. Facebook, the U.S. accuses China of cyberattacks, and Friend of Pivot Paxton Smith on Texas' new abortion law

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Kara Swisher: Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway: And Kara, this is Facebook's new vice president of Big Dick Energy.

Kara Swisher: That's right. That's right. They told me, HR told me, that I had to have a title that did not reflect anything true about me or the organization. That's my new title.

Scott Galloway: Oh, God.

Kara Swisher: Explain the reference, Scott, for the people who aren't paying every bit of attention to Facebook's hijinks for this week.

Scott Galloway: Vice President of Integrity. Yeah. That's Guy Rosen. His name is Guy Rosen. He's at Facebook. My choice came down to that or a position at Altria as a Vice President of Respiratory Health.

Kara Swisher: Oh, my God. Get it?

Scott Galloway: That's a good one.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I get it. I get it. We're going to be talking about that issue next. I think Big Dick Energy is really the best Vice President thing you could hope for.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. That's right. I think that's a nice title for you.

Kara Swisher: What would be mine?

Scott Galloway: Oh, you're the jungle cat. Let's just, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Kara Swisher: Vice President of Jungle Cats? All right. Okay. All right. Okay. All right. Well, there's a lot going on. Speaking of Big Dick Energy, Robin Hood is seeking $35 billion valuation on its IPO. The trading app plans to list on the NASDAQ under the ticker symbol HUD and anticipate selling shares for between $38 and $42 apiece. What thinks you, Scott, Big Dick Energy Vice President?

Scott Galloway: So first off, you have to acknowledge if you've read the S1, it's a great business. They do over a billion in revenues, up substantially. The scary part or the things that I think you have to be thoughtful around and require some sort of regulatory intervention is that one, over almost half the revenue is coming from the revenue they get from options. And then not only is it – so think about this. This is a company that attracts to kind of a new younger investor and half their business is dependent upon encouraging people to play with an instrument called options.

Kara Swisher: To be risky.

Scott Galloway: And then in addition, it's just the business model is order flow. And the question is, well, why are they making so much money off of order flow? And it's because these brokerages want to pair trades at a price that may not be advantageous for the consumer or front run them. And if you look at the stocks, the 10 most recommended or traded stocks on Robinhood, and you bought those stocks, you would not do well. And so this is, in addition, we've talked a lot about ad nauseum. So they're dragging people in and selling them to the order flow people.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, this is kind of a Facebook model. It's like, okay, we're going to do anything we can to increase your attention, even if it's enraging you or upsetting you or convincing you that everyone's making money but you or develop these kind of dark psychological or deliver or weaponize these dark psychological tactics, random rewards, visual simulation to try and get you to trade more, even though there's a lot of evidence reflecting that the more you trade, the more you lose. So this is not an organization that is focused on financial security. You could say, well, it's an organization that's bringing new people into the investment markets. That's a good thing. It's democratizing. I hate that word, but it is democratizing trading. That's a good thing. But are people going to develop economic security here? I would argue the evidence is no.

Scott Galloway: And bad habits.

Kara Swisher: Bad habits. Or not educational enough. Not being educated enough. And young men are seven times more likely to develop a gambling addiction. and 85 to 95 percent of day traders, which a lot of these individuals are, lose money. And all the incentives here in the business model, similar to some of the other platforms.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, it's to make people many experts when they're not.

Kara Swisher: That's right. So, but there's no getting around it. It's a great business. $35 billion valuation. That's staggering. I wasn't sure if this thing was going to get out because of all the regulatory scrutiny. And I feel as if I need to disclose I'm an investor in a competitor, public.

Scott Galloway: Public.

Kara Swisher: But – which, by the way, has a different business model. Their business model is tipping. They don't sell their order flow. They do not.

Scott Galloway: They did. But incentives are really important because if your incentives are tipping, then your incentives is to make the customer feel good about you.

Kara Swisher: Right.

Scott Galloway: That when you do a trade –

Kara Swisher: Or make money.

Scott Galloway: To go, okay, that trade was good. I learned. I maybe made some money. I'm feeling generous. That, to me, is the right incentive.

Kara Swisher: This is – yeah, I agree. I think this is, you know, away from this democratization of the stock market. And I know these people who are on it get very like, you know, they get they get all high dodging about this issue. But the fact of the matter is you're for sale on the Robin Hood, just so you know, kids. You know, sorry, you are. And that's the that's the problem. I mean, I think one of the things that's hard here is that you can you can it's sort of like when we'll talk about this later with Facebook. Yes, they're doing good information, but yeah, they're doing bad information. So it's kind of like one of those situations. And I think this is a this group has shown themselves to be really irresponsible. The other thing is, let me just say, Netflix is going to report Q2 earnings today. We're going to be talking about on Thursday, just business has been sluggish because of Q1. They added a ton of people because of COVID. We'll see, you know, not in Q1 they didn't. Last year they did because of COVID. And now the question is whether it's going to slow down. And obviously there's rising competition, Disney+, HBO Max, Apple TV+, Peacock, and now CNN+, to add more, streaming subscription service. So that's next year. So we'll talk about that on Thursday. So we'll have to see what happened after that. Maybe that's why they announced the video game thing, which we do still think is a great idea.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, this is a company that's sort of a victim of its own success. I mean, they've penetrated the majority of the U.S. Now they're going international. Fantastic content creators going into video games. The new guys, Disney Plus gets Rookie of the Year over and over. They signed up more people in the last 12 months than everyone else, including Netflix, in terms of new subscribers combined. So there's a lot of competition, but Netflix kind of shows up with the biggest gun in terms of their content budget, which is now something like $17 billion. But they're challenged. They're finally challenged after lapping everyone around the track. Look at a timeline of entrance into original scripted streaming. Basically from 2011 to 2016 or 17, they had it all to themselves. They literally had no competition.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, they did. They lapped the track.

Scott Galloway: They lapped the track. That's what they did.

Kara Swisher: And then today, a big announcement from CNN, my favorite brand or one of my favorite brands in the world. They're hiring 500 people to launch a streaming news service.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, they have a lot of big names there. They have a lot of people in the executive team that I recognize. They're putting the number ones on it, I think, or a lot of really good people on it. It's not going to be an also-ran. Although some of the, you know, we'll see if it's an also-ran or not, if it's a Peacock or not.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, but Peacock, but think about it. Peacock is the also-ran to Disney Plus and Hulu and Netflix. CNN Plus, what are they on also? Who else is doing really great news?

Scott Galloway: Well, Peacock has news on it.

Kara Swisher: Peacock does have news. You just don't watch them. It has Lester Holt. It has behind the scenes of Lester Holt. They have a couple shows. It doesn't have AC.

Scott Galloway: I know. I understand that. But we'll see. We'll see where it goes. You see if AC is better. We'll see. We'll see. 4,000 people, 500 new hires in this division. I think it's a big deal. And we said a couple of weeks ago, the final frontier in streaming is news and politics. And who does it better globally than CNN? I don't know. I think it's going to.

Kara Swisher: True. But they're also facing huge declines in their ratings, too, because there's no Trump to kick around anymore, although these books are out, which we'll talk about a little bit. So last thing, before we get to the big story, Jeff Bezos is going to space at 9 a.m. Let's wish him well. It's Blue Origin's first crewed mission heading to suborbital space, actually, and back. He's just going, he's not going into space per se. It's suborbital space. The new Shepard rocket is aiming for about 66 miles above Earth versus Branson's 53.5 miles because it's a competition, apparently. It's not. He's going with his brother, Mark Bezos, Mercury 13 and aviation pioneer Wally Funk, who is this fantastic lady. I love her name, Wally Funk. And 18-year-old Oliver Damon, who is the son of a hedge fund guy who bought the second flight. I don't know. It's rich people and this lady. That's just not a good look. You know when they got that winning bid?

Scott Galloway: I know.

Kara Swisher: And the kid who looks like the captain of the lacrosse team and his father's a bee.

Scott Galloway: Well, the winning bid guy couldn't do it. The $28 million.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, whatever. What do you have to do if you're paying? All you have to do is watch a few videos of rockets blowing up and you go, I have a scheduling conflict.

Scott Galloway: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: Well, let's wish him well. Godspeed, Jeff Bezos. Into space-ish.

Scott Galloway: Space-ish.

Kara Swisher: I'm going to call it space-ish. Literally that thing. That'll drive him crazy. Let's call it space-ish.

Scott Galloway: That is the most expensive yellow Corvette and hair plugs in the history of mankind. Ish.

Kara Swisher: Seriously. Seriously. Speaking of things, things that are taking off the tension. We're going to go into the big story now. It's time for that. Facebook and President Biden are facing off over vaccine misinformation. This past Friday, Biden was asked about the role of social media in influencing vaccinations, and his response was unusually strong. They're killing people. I mean, it really felt look. The only pandemic we have is among the unvaccinated. and they're killing people. Facebook fired back on Saturday in a blog post saying the Biden administration was, quote, finger-pointing and that Facebook was not the reason Biden's goal of 70% vaccination was missed. On Monday, Biden reversed course and said Facebook isn't killing people, though the president walked back to his most aggressive comment. He re-edited that he hopes Facebook does something about the misinformation. It was kind of fascinating. He did push it too far. It was interesting. Let me just start. I interviewed Ron Klain, who started to raise this idea A couple of weeks ago in a podcast I did with him was saying Facebook's always the person the company mentioned when people talk about misinformation when they're doing their polling. Then Jennifer Psaki said something, and then the Surgeon General did. And then for some reason, Biden went out there and was doing the come on man thing. Like, come on, man, they're killing people. And so it may have been a little much. I wrote a column saying it was probably a little much. But nonetheless, what do you think?

Scott Galloway: I look, I've said this nine times so I'll say a tenth time and I've been wrong every time. I think this is Facebook jumping the shark. Facebook basically said first off they found this VP of integrity. They strapped a bomb. He's been there. They strapped a bomb to his chest and said, "Hey, you're a hero. Go out there and say that the Biden administration..." This is what they said about the Biden administration: that they were trying to find scapegoats because of their failed vaccine strategy. He said that. That is basically telling the President of the United States and the U.S. government that on the most important issue they have and will face, they are failing six months into their presidency. I don't think they ever said anything that aggressive about Trump. I don't think they've accused President Xi of finding scapegoats. So the calculated decision here was they strapped a bomb to this kid's chest or put him in a kamikaze plane and said, go out there and clap back really hard at the administration. And for the life of me, Kara, I can't figure out how this was anything but a ridiculously stupid fucking move on the part of Facebook.

Kara Swisher: What do you think the Biden's saying, saying killing people? That was pretty accurate.

Scott Galloway: I think you want to say.

Kara Swisher: Accurate? What, accurate? Yes and no, as I noted in the piece. They are definitely part of this ecosystem that creates this problem. Ultimately, it's – well, by the way, you could point the same finger at Fox News, which is all their stuff. It's not as big. It's not as amplified. you could point at the people who aren getting vaccines They being willfully ignorant and accepting all kinds Famous famous bad last words We should talk to your brother about this because every medical professional I heard interviewed or I talked to and I say when these people when people actually come in and start and try to justify why they not getting a vaccine and then you ask them where are you reading this information They almost, they don't say Tucker Carlson. They don't say Breitbart. They don't say Twitter. They say Facebook. And the amount of misinformation, disinformation that Facebook has, in my opinion, let permeate around vaccine misinformation. So I think President Biden was cursed with accuracy when he said that Facebook is killing people. And Facebook has shown an ability to ignore evidence that their actions or I should say their inaction is killing people.

Scott Galloway: But distinct of the right and the wrong here from a comm strategy or a political strategy, you're talking to the guy who guides the DOJ. You're talking to a guy who has security apparatus, who has the SEC, who has the FTC all under his guidance. and they have personally pissed him off. Is that the right strategy? Are they trying to shore up? Fox News hasn't said this. Fox News hasn't come out and accused Biden of handling the pandemic poorly. By the way, 72. Oh, well, they have. That's John. You have to watch it. I don't think they've said anything this aggressive. I thought this was very aggressive.

Kara Swisher: It's pretty aggressive over there at Fox News. It certainly is. 72% of Americans think Biden is handling the pandemic well.

Scott Galloway: Yes, I agree. And I think that this resurgence of this Delta variant, 97% of new hospitalizations from Delta variant are from people who've not been vaccinated, according to the CDC.

Kara Swisher: I just saw on Facebook a bunch of information saying, no, that's not true. It's these people. It's like, anytime there's a fact, there's a counter fake fact on Facebook, for sure. There's no question about that. But one of the questions I asked you then, how do we get people to focus on the actual problem while persuading people to get vaccinated? Turn off Facebook? Do what? There's definitely a figure here. There's no question a figure here. There's also a widespread distrust. There's, you know, inertia by young people, I think. More than, ah, what do I need it for? I'll survive it. I've heard that from a lot of young people for sure. And there's nothing to do with Facebook. It's, I'll be fine. You know, I have a relative who's, I'll be fine if I get it. It's fine. No problem. You know, that kind of thing.

Scott Galloway: I don't think trying to manage the 45,000-headed whack-a-mole that is media right now, and pass laws and get into a contest with the several hundred lobbyists from Facebook to try and figure out a way to manage. I think they've done, the administration has done as good a job as it can, I think, trying to put forward accurate information. But unfortunately, the bully pulpit has turned into just the pulp of the pulpit compared to Facebook and social media. I believe, I believe that the government needs to show more leadership and say to people, and I think a lot of the people who are vaccine hesitant are also the people who are taking a lot of transfer payments and get a lot of money from the government. And I think it would be within the government's purview and rights to say, if you're going to cash our Medicare, our unemployment, our social security, whatever it might be, we have decided this is good for America. And if the Delta variant continues to bump around and figure out ways to get around this, and we're going to have to shut down the economy again, much less kill another 500,000 Americans, fine, we understand that you have the right to refuse a substance against your will going into your body. But if you're going to cash our checks, you're going to get this vaccine. And I think it is that time.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, that's interesting. Now, Biden did unwind. Why do you think he unwind? He said, Facebook isn't killing people. My hope is that they would do something about the misinformation. That's what I meant. I wouldn't have walked it back, but I think he's trying to be. A lot of people liked it. He said it. He's like, oh, finally, someone says it. It says, you know, it says the truth, essentially.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I don't, and not only that, it's really unfortunate, but we live in an echo, we live in an environment now where it almost never makes sense to apologize.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, absolutely.

Scott Galloway: Because the people who didn't like his statement don't give him any credit for apologizing, and the people who like to get angry at him. It's just, and I'm not saying it's the right thing, but, and I think you have a moral obligation when you feel sorry to apologize, and I've dealt with this recently. I also think you have a moral obligation when you're not sorry to not apologize, guys. I think it's a lie. I think they should have absolutely stuck to their guns there.

Kara Swisher: I'd love to know what went on behind the scenes. They were definitely slowly trotting it out, the Biden administration. Maybe they thought they're very, you know, as opposed to the Trump people. I'm just reading one of the Trump books, the Michael Wolff book, and he just keeps going. Like, they just don't, they probably got a lot of pushback from Facebook, et cetera. So we'll see where that goes. Okay. We're going to go on a quick break. When we come back, the Biden administration is not done pointing fingers, we'll talk about why it's pointing them at China. Stay with us.

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Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, we're back. The Biden administration is formally accusing China of hacking Microsoft. A very strong statement today. The U.S. and global allies, with the U.S. as the rounder upper of these allies, are blaming China for widespread cybercrime, including one of the largest cyber attacks in U.S. history, that massive Microsoft Exchange hack earlier this spring. The breach exposed tens of thousands of private and public U.S. entities worldwide, the victims including schools, hospitals, cities, and pharmacies, and that they were paying criminal groups to do it and then let the criminal groups take the money and encourage them to make trouble. U.S.-China relations are already strained, obviously. So what does this do to them? What do you think about this?

Scott Galloway: Super aggressive moves on China, much more so even than President Trump. It's a really smart strategy when you have an economy as robust and as large as America where we have very strong traditions, especially in the south of military families where we continue to attract some of the best and brightest young men and women. Go to Annapolis, West Point, the Air Force Academy, our Coast Guard. We have hands down. Our military is not only bigger than the next 10 biggest from a resources standpoint. It's also the most outstanding. It's the best performing, maybe with the exception of Israel does a fantastic job. But so if you can't compete, you never want to compete on a field where you know you're going to get your ass kicked. And by the way, those 10 other nations, it's been as much as us. Seven of them are our allies. So if you're China or even Russia, especially Russia, whose economy is somewhere between South Korea and Canada, you don't fight on those terms. And this is, I mean, this is innovation on their part. For $100 million, you can wreak a lot of havoc in U.S. corporations, U.S. government. You can embarrass presidential candidates. You can turn off power flows. I mean, you can do all kinds of things. So the question is, you know, what are we going to do? What do we do about it? Because there were no sanctions attack like the sanctions on Russia following the solar winds attack. So the administration is willing to say something by joining us, pulling in Australia, Canada, Japan, United Kingdom, New Zealand and European Union, which joined the U.S. And it's the first statement from NATO publicly aimed at China for cyber crimes. But there weren't nothing. It was just a you better not kind of thing.

Kara Swisher: I don't know. I've been frustrated by this. I think that in this, again, we're going to have this. We're going to pay the price for this in the next 10 years. When your president and the individual and your administration are generally incompetent and also kind of winking and saying anything that the Russians do, well, I'm not worried about that. There has been, in my opinion, we've lacked the sense of urgency to marshal our resources to effectively counterbalance what are effectively short of – You know, there are proxy wars all over the nation. We don't want to do anything that could escalate to nuclear conflict. So we have proxy wars. And this is the new proxy war where Chinese come after us. They attack our homeland. But they're convinced, A, it's very economical, a huge ROI. For several million dollars, you can wreak a lot of havoc in the U.S. And it likely doesn't escalate to a nuclear conflict.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, yeah.

Kara Swisher: So the question is—

Scott Galloway: And it's difficult to deal with, obviously.

Kara Swisher: I call it a bit-to-bite combat in a column that's coming up. I think there's an opportunity to develop what I'll call a cyber core, and that is to say to the best and brightest in math and data mining, all right, 12, 24-month boot camp. I think we should have, similar to Annapolis, an academy that produces the world's finest young men and women around cyber terrorism.

Scott Galloway: It's sucked up by tech companies, though.

Kara Swisher: Which is fine. That's one of the big issues, which is one of the big issues is keeping people in this government. And working with, we're largely working with private companies here. And in China, let's just bring this in, that they have put in a lot of crackdowns on their companies there. And they have much more control over them. And just recently, cracked down on Didi, on ByteDance, on Alibaba. So they are moving to, you know, take larger control over their companies. Here, we have to, one, work with them. Two, compete for talent. And three, it's such a disparate landscape to have to protect. It's very, very difficult.

Scott Galloway: Are you going to use your favorite term again?

Kara Swisher: I was going to say surface area, but it's a big surface area.

Scott Galloway: We could kill two birds with one stone. And that is we have to recognize that of the two-thirds of young people that end up with a traditional bachelor's degree, that we need to do what Europe's done and have more concerted, thoughtful, vocational investment. And I can't imagine a better field that could put more people to work and let tech companies compete for them than a 12- to 24-month intensive cybersecurity training. I think it's a big opportunity for universities to work with, tech companies to work with the government to push out thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of talented young people who understand this stuff. Because at the end, there's just no getting around it. We have to hit back. Not only do we have to defend – We are hitting back. Not only do we have to defend U.S. shores and U.S. companies, but we're also probably going to have to put ourselves in a position where we can restore, we can hunt down and repatriate ransomware such that we can at some point make it illegal to pay a ransom and create disincentives around this stuff. But also, we're going to have to pick some targets, I would imagine. They're gaming us out every which way but loose in Russia and in China and basically turn the lights up and say, guys, every time you do this, we're going to turn the lights out in a bigger house. So I'm disappointed we haven't heard of and haven't seen what I'll call any countermeasures.

Kara Swisher: We don't know precisely what's going on, right? You think? We don't know precisely. You know, I think one of the things that's difficult here is that it just this this stuff escalates and escalates and escalates. And then you have to figure out what what you're what you're willing to put up with. I think that's one of the problems.

Scott Galloway: Haven't we crossed that line? Don't you think we've crossed that line?

Kara Swisher: Because they have much more control over their technology and the way this is, you know, this is an authoritarian government. And you can see what they're doing to their companies and they have a lot better. And then they're putting massive investments in. And the state just announced which I think didn get a lot of attention but should have the Ministry of Industry and Information Technology announced released a draft of a plan to develop its own cybersecurity industry which it sees as a huge economic opportunity to dominate the space globally And so, you know, they're already doing this in 5G, in automation, in AI, et cetera, et cetera. Now they want to dominate. You want China to dominate cybersecurity?

Kara Swisher: That is a frightening situation. That's right. The problem is they can do a lot of things we can't do or won't do.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I don't. So it's difficult. It's difficult. At the same time, we have the best technology in the world. We have the most capital. I think we have the most talented academics and universities working on this. It seems to me that we should be able to hit back and hit back pretty damn hard.

Kara Swisher: Yes. Yes. This was a big statement, but it still needs to be met with sanctions or something else because this was just a lot of chit-chatty. It's a lot of chit-chatty versus doing something. And I think that's the difficult part is there's got to be, you know, if you're saying hit back hard. We should do it in a way that is a little stronger. That would be my, that was my feeling, is a little stronger, a little more clear what we're up to and not allowing them. Now, again, we don't know what's going on behind the scenes, as you know, but it's certainly important to make it clear in some way to do that.

Scott Galloway: I love what Madeline Albright said. Our memory is long and our reach is far. And we need to be thoughtful and just anytime someone attacks us and anytime And we have to instill, you know, the greatest deterrent in history is the fact that America trains millions of talented young people, devotes a significant amount of its GDP such that we can deliver an unprecedented historic amount of violence to anywhere in the world. And if you don't believe that is the reason why 5% of the population gets to control, 32% of the resources, then just wait until someone else has that confidence and comes and takes your Netflix and your PBS away, which they will. So our ability to respond and ensure that people know we will respond is key to our continued prosperity. And we haven't had that yet.

Kara Swisher: All I'm saying is this ain't Russia. This is a group of people who knows how to do this. So we'll see. We'll see where it goes. But it is a fascinating time. And even Russia causes a lot of problems with how they behave, too. Let's bring in our friend of Pivot. She joins us just days after Planned Parenthood, the ACLU, and the Texas abortion providers filed a federal lawsuit to stop the state's six-week abortion ban, known as Senate Bill 8, before it takes effect on September 1st. You may remember Paxton Smith's name from the headlines she made earlier this summer when she gave a valedictorian speech blasting the bill during her Dallas high school graduation.

[Clip of Paxton Smith's valedictorian speech plays: "I have dreams and hopes and ambitions. Every girl graduating today does. And we have spent our entire lives working towards our future. And without our input and without our consent, our control over that future has been stripped away from us."]

Kara Swisher: Paxton, welcome to Pivot. Thank you for coming on.

Paxton Smith: Hi, thanks so much for having me.

Kara Swisher: Of course. I mean, you made incredible news with that speech. But let me now remind people, this was not originally the speech you'd planned to give. Explain the circumstances surrounding your speech.

Paxton Smith: Well, I wrote the speech pretty soon after I found out that the Texas heartbeat bill had been passed. And I was incredibly upset because I hated the fact that whether or not I would become a mother or whether or not I would have a child, the decision would be made by the government. It would not be made by me. And that scared me. And I just wanted to have control over that. So I wanted people to know how that felt. And so that's what I decided to make my speech about.

Kara Swisher: Right. But you had a different speech, right? That the school had approved.

Paxton Smith: I did. Yeah.

Kara Swisher: And you just went off script, essentially. Correct?

Paxton Smith: Yes.

Kara Swisher: So you gave this speech, and tell us the fallout from it afterwards. Now, positive from your friends, presumably, but what about adults?

Paxton Smith: Yes, adults were super positive about it as well. I got a lot of really positive feedback. Obviously, the speech gained a lot of traction. In terms of negative fallout, there really was not very much. I've received maybe 10, 20 negative messages total.

Kara Swisher: Really? Yeah. That's amazing. And were you nervous about doing this? One of the things that was important of it is social media then took this thing and sent it around the world, essentially. I mean, which is really fascinating how this works. Did you expect that to happen?

Paxton Smith: I did not. I thought the microphone was going to get cut off before I even got four sentences in.

Kara Swisher: Mm-hmm.

Paxton Smith: And then it took off all around the world.

Kara Swisher: Did you expect this much attention to it? Given it went all over, it was all over Twitter, it was all over everywhere, pretty much everywhere that there could be social media took it far and wide, essentially.

Paxton Smith: Yeah, I didn't anticipate it at all. The speech revolves around a Texas bill. And so I figured that if it did manage to pick up any traction, the furthest it would go would Texas, maybe national. But as I started to see that it went global and people from around the world started to share their stories with me, share their realities with me, I started to see that the message and the vulnerability and the emotion behind it was not just a Texas girl's emotion. It was this global feeling towards abortion access and reproductive health care.

Kara Swisher: Scott?

Scott Galloway: Paxton, just a comment and then more global questions about being an impressive 18-year-old. If you look at history, history doesn't usually judge people on whether they were right or wrong on an issue, but the courage and the grace they bring to an issue. I think your kids are going to be really proud of you. So well done.

Paxton Smith: Thank you.

Scott Galloway: The question I have is much more general. So I have a question about parenting and about media. So my first, I'll take those in reverse order. What I'm curious, what media you saw this go viral, if you will. What media played the biggest role did you observe in kind of spreading it? And two, I'm just curious, a successful, competent 18 year old. Give us a sense of the media landscape. What are you consuming more and less of?

Paxton Smith: I think what really helped it pick up traction was TikTok. One, TikTok, it went viral overnight, and then maybe a day or two later, it went viral on Twitter. It just spread like wildfire there. In terms of what I consume media-wise, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, and Netflix does a great job of portraying a lot of people's stories that don't get covered in other media.

Scott Galloway: It's interesting you said TikTok first. Is that interesting? Why did you say that? Why TikTok first?

Paxton Smith: Yeah. It is so easy for people to go viral on TikTok that you see a lot of stories that are not generally covered by other people. Or there are a lot of voices represented that don't usually have a platform in media. And so for me, it's something that's vibrant and real and authentic that I can watch. And it happens in 15 to 60 seconds per person. So it's incredibly accessible. And it gives you so much within the time that you spend on it. So for me, that is the platform that I spend the most time on.

Kara Swisher: That's interesting. So you were originally going to talk about TV and social media in the speech. Is that correct? What were you going to say?

Paxton Smith: Well, I was going to talk about how much time I do spend on those platforms and why. And then I was going to talk about how whenever people are creating content, whenever media is being created, how they go about making this very personal connection with the person who is watching or listening, and how sometimes that can make it feel more real than it is. And it can lead you to make your expectations based off of what you see in the media. But that's not always realistic because at the end of the day, it's entertainment that you're taking in, and it's not always going to be representative of reality.

Kara Swisher: Right. Right. Scott?

Scott Galloway: I think the majority of the people look at this and say, wow, what an impressive young woman. And even the people who might have hated what you said, if you said to them, all right, you could have your son or daughter, A, be the valedictorian, and B, show that kind of grace and that kind of courage, you'd think, yeah, I'll hit that bit. I'll take that kid. So my question as a parent who's trying to raise kids to look, smell, and feel like a valedictorian that shows courage.

Kara Swisher: Well, they've got to get A's, Scott. That's the first thing.

Scott Galloway: But I'm curious in terms of parenting in your household, when you look back on your influences that have helped you, I don't know if it's sports, if it's parents or whatever it might be, what influences do you think have had the most impact on getting you to where kind of all parents hope their kids end up at your age?

Paxton Smith: Well, I think there's a couple of things. First and foremost, there was always this very open sense of communication in the family where no matter what the topic was, no matter what the topic was. It was something that we could discuss. And even if it was controversial, even if we had different opinions that really clashed, we could still have a conversation about it and try to listen and understand the other person's perspective, which I think has really shaped my approach to a lot of different things. And then I think one of the next biggest things that has influenced who I've become is that my dad always used to tell me this exact thing. He said, "Always do the right thing, even when it sucks."

Scott Galloway: I love that.

Kara Swisher: So talk about this idea, because you had been very active in social justice causes before. No, not really. Had you watched other other kids do that? I'm thinking of the kids at Stoneman Douglas, who became gun control activists and different things like that. Had you been watching social justice movements sort of start to, you know, people not just on social media, but throughout young people or Greta Thunberg or whoever? Had you thought of yourself like that?

Paxton Smith: I had definitely seen those. I think it's impossible not to see them, but I didn't see myself as one of them, no.

Kara Swisher: Why is that?

Paxton Smith: Sometimes those things just seem larger than life itself. How did they manage to pull that off? So to me, it didn't really seem like I didn't feel like I was going to have as big an impact as those people did. And so when I did what I did, I did it because I felt like it was the right thing.

Kara Swisher: So what are you going to do with this responsibility? Obviously, you've gotten very well known on this particular topic, especially there's this lawsuit that just happened, but this bill has moved forward. How do you want to involve yourself going forward?

Paxton Smith: I would really like to try and reach people my age and open up the conversation about abortion because it's incredibly stigmatized right now. And it doesn't need to be. It's completely normal. And I guarantee that everybody knows and loves someone who has had an abortion. So that's something that I'm really trying to focus on and also focusing on the other aspects of reproductive health care, which includes sex education.

Kara Swisher: And so you'd like to keep working on this topic?

Paxton Smith: Yes, absolutely.

Kara Swisher: Do you think when you try to reach young people, you know, Olivia Rodrigo was just at the White House on vaccinations for example, trying to get younger people to get vaccinations which is an issue. Was it... yeah, do you love her? Why was that cool?

Paxton Smith: Okay, well it was just seeing somebody who I had really admired their work, I really love their work, I listened to it probably on a daily basis. And so just seeing her take a stand and do what was right was really, it was really cool for me to see.

Scott Galloway: All right. What did you learn from this whole experience of doing this? I can't imagine what the moment was right before you decided to go for it. But it takes a moment there to do it. Did you think about not doing it when you were about to launch into it? Or did you say, what the hell, let's go?

Paxton Smith: I did, but I had essentially burned my escape routes because the initial speech I had never finished. So I was like, well, I have to give a speech. So I'm going to give the speech that I plan to give, even if I'm a little bit scared.

Scott Galloway: Right. So you just, so what did you learn from the whole experience from your perspective?

Paxton Smith: I guess one of the biggest things is that if you decide to speak up about what it is that you're passionate about, people are always listening and people are always watching and noticing what you have to say, whether they decide to share your message or whether they agree with what you had to say or whether you even change anyone's mind. That doesn't matter. But they're going to see what you said and they're going to think about it. And it's going to influence their thinking in the future. So every person's voice and story matters.

Kara Swisher: And do you think it does get through? You know, this weekend on Friday, President Biden said Facebook was killing people. There's so much noise in the social media environment of getting through. And yet you got through. So you think people should just speak up no matter what, despite all the noise that is around in social media, the disinformation, the misinformation?

Paxton Smith: I think people should speak up. But I think a matter of staying well-informed is another thing entirely, which I think is equally as important. There is, you're right, there are a lot of people who are just going to say their opinion as fact on social media, and they're going to be very loud about it and very vocal about it. So if there's something that you care about that you've noticed and think is important, take the time to read and research that thing from credible news sources.

Kara Swisher: Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway: Just what's next for you? Where are you going to school? What are you excited about your freshman year? What's your plan?

Paxton Smith: Well, I'm going to the University of Texas at Austin.

Scott Galloway: UT! Hook 'em horns!

Paxton Smith: Yeah, hook 'em. I'm undeclared at the moment, but I'm hoping to study arts and entertainment technologies because I would like to do music production and pop performance in the future. So I'm very excited about that.

Scott Galloway: Music production and pop performance. Yes. Can I make a couple of predictions here and now?

Paxton Smith: Okay.

Scott Galloway: The first is you're going to do amazing things. The second prediction is it will be anything but that because I find really impressive young people have their list. And then they are presented with so many interesting things, they end up tearing up their list. All right, Dad. So that's the only thing I'm confident you will not end up doing. Anyway, sorry.

Kara Swisher: You should do whatever you want, Paxton. Try not to listen to Dad. I'm coming to Texas to interview Beto O'Rourke at the Texas Tribune Festival. We'll smell you, you hundred-year-old. Would you at least be my guest and come meet Beto and everything else? I don't know if you know him or not. If you feel like it, Paxton, you're invited.

Scott Galloway: UCLA. I'll come down for a UCLA game.

Kara Swisher: Okay. Anyway, Paxton, thank you so much. We were really proud of what you did, and we really wanted you to come on, too.

Paxton Smith: Thank you so much.

Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott. She's way ahead of us already. Let me just say. So my question is, business idea, is there a platform I can go to and trade my two sons for one of Paxton? I mean, is that every parent's dream? Do her parents, like Mr. and Mrs. Smith?

Scott Galloway: Yeah. Oh, my God. Well done. You should be high-fiving each other every day.

Kara Swisher: I know. Every day. Anyway, we're going to go for one more quick break, and then we'll be back for wins and fails.

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Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, wins and fails.

Scott Galloway: All right, besides Paxton Smith being a winner, what is your win and fail this week? So my fail is I think that Facebook has become the premier epicenter of death, disease, and disability. And I think that the government—

Kara Swisher: So killers. You're going with killers.

Scott Galloway: I think the government needs to demonstrate. In 1941, a lot of young men were asked to register for the draft to go back to Europe. And a lot of men understandably said, my dad did not come home. My mom has been widowed. We are financially impoverished. Just 20 years later, you're asking me to go back after another failed war. I am not doing it. And you know what we did? We put 5,000 young men in prison. And I believe that we have lost a lot of our fortitude and stomach for our government showing leadership around what is required to maintain the liberties and prosperity that we enjoy. So I think that the administration not only needs to embrace this, I think it needs to go one step further and start asking more of its citizens. And I believe that the Biden administration should continue to show leadership, talk straight and go one step further. And this Delta variant. You want more of, more of. This goddamn virus is banging around as all these people watch Fox and Facebook. And it's figuring out how to get it. It didn't get the memo regarding our plans to get back to normal.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, it does not.

Scott Galloway: To believe that this thing could not only return, it could get worse. It could get worse. So we have the American government needs to return to its proud legacy of demanding from its citizens a recognition of the sacrifices that have been made to get us here. So anyways, my fail is the death, the disease, and disability that Facebook continues to levy on this Commonwealth. My win is Governor Pritzker announced a bill that—

Kara Swisher: This is to explain where he's from, Illinois.

Scott Galloway: Illinois, Governor Illinois, thank you. Has announced a bill that makes it illegal for investigators to lie to suspects that are minors in order to—

Kara Swisher: Oh, good. Because that's so sneaky.

Scott Galloway: In order to solicit a confession. And if you want to talk about—there's no shortage of people hiding behind social justice warriors in being offended, in doing all this pseudo-bullshit, wokeness, virtue signaling. If you want to talk about where real systemic racism can be addressed, it's in our criminal justice system. And you can bet that a lot of the minors who get wrongly prosecuted are people of color who don't have access to lawyers. And this is what happened or can happen. It's legal right now. They can walk into a 16-year-old accused of a – who's a suspect and say – Well, look at what happened with the kids at Central Park. We have your DNA. Central Park started off Donald Trump's political career. We have your DNA, and that can be a lie, at the crime scene. And your buddy next to you, your buddy who is with you is in the next room and he's already confessed. And the first person that confesses gets a lower prison sentence. So you have two minutes to confess and try. You can say all of these things if they're lies. And I think there's room for debate around adults. This shit should not fly with minors. It just shouldn't. So I think that J.B. Pritzker, I think if you want to talk about real systemic change in terms of a criminal justice system, whether it's marijuana laws where we don't lock up the white people who buy it we just lock up the black people who sell it that is where we can make real progress. So my win is J.B. Pritzker.

Kara Swisher: I have a fail. Go ahead. I have a fail. I'm not going to say who it is because I don't want to give these people but a lot of Silicon Valley dudes, a lot of them, a lot of them are doing this whole new thing around the new masks in Los Angeles, etc. It is what it is, right? We do it's not beaten yet. So they're going crazy as if it's like, we all want the economy to open for fuck's sake, honestly. But this is what this guy wrote. "Just because an opinion is wrong doesn't mean it should be censored. Just because a behavior is harmful doesn't mean it should be prohibited. Just because something is beneficial doesn't mean it shouldn't be required." Well, you unkind fuck. I don't know what else to say. I mean, seriously, this idea of selfishness as a theory is just beyond belief. The lack of civic responsibility among these people, at least not to just keep jamming this ridiculous opinion. Yes, you can have a wrong opinion. Yes, you should be able to say it. When it's dangerous and false and causes damage, maybe we should think about it. Honestly, I don't know who raised these young men. These men, they're not young, any of them, by the way. They're old and failing and they're not, they're going to end up dying no matter what they do around psychedelics and everything else. But let me just tell you, this kind of attitude is about the worst of really wealthy people who just don't want anyone to get in the way of their dream. Even character responsibility and accountability?

Scott Galloway: Yes. Yes, exactly. And I honestly don't know who you're referring to, but if I were to say on this platform that that individual is a pedophile and it was to get wind, and even if it was proof false and he were no longer able to fund companies or whatever it is he does, I shouldn't be liable because I'm entitled to make mistakes? I mean, okay.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, because behavior is harmful. We're not talking about free speech here. We're talking about accountability.

Scott Galloway: Exactly. They have no accountability. Let me say, just because something is beneficial doesn't mean it should be required. No, it shouldn't be required, you asshole. Go ahead and be an asshole. You know what it should be? It's part of being a human being and being good to have a human being.

Kara Swisher: I love getting angry at anonymous people. This bitch! They know who they are. I'll hear from them. I know this person. I can't wait to go off mic. He represents a lot of attitude. I've seen a lot of tweets by people I used to like, and now I literally refuse to talk to them.

Scott Galloway: Don't follow anyone you're friends with on social media. You'll just be disgusted.

Kara Swisher: They're not my friends. You just, they've never. You're like, oh my God, really? Scott, let me just tell you, I'm working on my book right now. None of them are my friends. And they'll find out soon enough why that is. None of them are my friends.

Scott Galloway: You saucy little nicks.

Kara Swisher: My win, my win, this one show called Manifest, which was I think on NBC. See, it's now the hugest hit on Netflix. My son loves it. The guy who created it tweeted at me. I'd love to meet him, by the way. And I really love it. I love it. I can't believe I discovered it on Netflix, of all things. That's why I love Netflix, I have to say. So that's something I recommend. My son loves it. It's really good. I think it's going to get weird. I don't know where it's going to go.

Scott Galloway: Well, isn't it basically reheated Lost? Like, you don't really ever figure out what happens because none of it makes any sense.

Kara Swisher: No, the 4400. It's more like the 4400. Anyway, I like it. I don't care. Anyway, Scott, you should watch it. That's the show. I can watch it over and over again, those kind of shows.

Kara Swisher: We'll be back on Friday for more. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit your question for the Pivot podcast. The link is also in our show notes. Also, share your opinions with us through our new show survey at nymag.com slash pivot survey. I got a couple of tweets that people couldn't get there, but that's the address. That's nymag.com slash pivot survey, all in one word. And you can tell us what you think of Scott and I and everything else and things we should do. We have a new producer, Evan Engel, who just was announced. We're very excited to have him here. We have exciting things coming up on The Pivot. We like to morph and change like everything else. So Scott, read us out.

Scott Galloway: Today's show is produced by Lara Naiman, Caroline Chagrin, and Evan Engel. Ernie Entretot, engineer in this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows. Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify or, frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts. If you like the show, please recommend it to a friend. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back this week for another breakdown of all things tech.