Colleges Push Back, Ozempic Price Promise, and White House vs. Anthropic

Kara Swisher: Support for the show comes from UserTesting. You can stop with the guessing, because with UserTesting, you can test anything and learn everything from the people who matter most: your audience. Whether it's an ad campaign, a website prototype, or a brand new product feature, UserTesting helps you see and hear real reactions in just hours, not weeks. That means no guesswork and no wasted effort, just insights you can act on right away. Teams use UserTesting to move faster, make smarter decisions, and craft experiences people truly love. Real people, real reactions, real fast. Learn more at usertesting.com slash pivot.

Kara Swisher: But I used it in the very beginning of doing podcasts when I did remote stuff. And no matter what you have an idea for, whether it's an innovative piece of tech, a groundbreaking policy, or a short story concept you can't get out of your head, go for it. You just need to get started. Great ideas start on Mac. Find yours at apple.com slash Mac.

Scott Galloway: Every great company's story is defined by moments when the founders make bold decisions. These are high-stakes moments that risk the business, but can lead to greatness. I'm Rolof Bota, managing partner of Sequoia Capital and the host of Crucible Moments. We're returning for a brand new season. Join us as leaders from Stripe, Zipline, Palo Alto Networks, Klarna, Supercell and more share what it's actually like to navigate the make or break decisions. Crucible Moments is back on October 23rd. Until then, catch up on Seasons 1 and 2 wherever you find your podcasts.

Kara Swisher: Okay, you said short story. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway: Go ahead.

Kara Swisher: Oh my God, you're so... Okay.

Scott Galloway: Oh my God, where is this going?

Kara Swisher: Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisher.

Scott Galloway: And I'm Scott Galloway. Guess where I am?

Kara Swisher: I like this game. Where are you?

Scott Galloway: Las Vegas. Your favorite place. Vegas, baby.

Kara Swisher: What are you doing in Vegas?

Scott Galloway: Oh, I'm giving a speech at a place you gave a speech at. I can't remember the name... Stansbury? Anyway, I'm here to talk about AI, of course, because that's the topic du jour of many of these events.

Kara Swisher: Nice. I didn't do anything in Vegas last night. I went to sleep and I watched The Diplomat before that. That's what I did.

Scott Galloway: Oh, really?

Kara Swisher: Entire evening, yes.

Scott Galloway: I love Vegas. How does it feel?

Kara Swisher: To what?

Scott Galloway: Well, I mean, how does the mood... People say Vegas is dying because people now have Vegas in their pocket with their phones and people have less money.

Kara Swisher: You know, it was full. You know, I was... I met... I guess it's the Wynn, the one with all the trees that hang down. You know Vegas better than I do. But I'm staying at the Encore, that whole facility. And it was packed. I was surprised. It was very jolly. Although it wasn't... I wouldn't say the casino was packed, that's for sure. But it wasn't like un-full, I guess. I don't know. Is this the time of year for it to be full?

Scott Galloway: I think Vegas is pretty much a year-round place.

Kara Swisher: Right, right. I know conventions and everything. Right. I've only been here at like CES, so it's always full.

Scott Galloway: It's not like that, by any means, like that whatsoever. I used to go there. My friend Lotus and I would get ridiculously high and decide at 2 a.m. that it was a good idea to go to Vegas. And we'd jump in his Volkswagen Jetta.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Scott Galloway: And head for five hours to... cross the desert. To Vegas. And we'd stay at the Golden Nugget because they had this buffet for $9.99. You could basically eat for a good, you know, enough for a day or two.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Scott Galloway: And we would always put $5 in the glove box so we had enough gas to get home because we knew we'd lose all our money.

Kara Swisher: Oh, and did you?

Scott Galloway: Oh, yeah. That's part of the fun.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. I was going to go out and bet last night and then I got tired and I love Keri Russell. So I always used to, with Vegas, I would take my mother's boyfriend's cardigan because it was really, really plush and nice. And I thought it made me look older. They let you in here. They let like a 10-year-old in here, wouldn't they? I mean, they're kind of like...

Scott Galloway: They're much more strict now. I think back then they would. Now they're very, very strict. My favorite was, there was a casino called Circus Circus to be family friendly.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right. Actually, I was, oddly enough, I texted Amanda and I said, we're going to California for Christmas. We have like a couple of days and it's either go to like LA and go to like a theme park or... I was like, why don't we come to Vegas and watch the Wizard of Oz at the Sphere with the kids or something like that? Like literally. And she didn't reject the idea because I thought she'd never been to Vegas. She didn't totally reject the idea.

Scott Galloway: It's the best place in the world for 36 hours. And on the 37th hour, it turns into the worst place in the world.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. I thought it would be kind of fun. Go to the buffet and the kids would like... it's so weird and strange. I thought they would enjoy it for like a short time. And it's so, you know, it sounds dumb, but it's kid oriented because there's all the noises and things. And, you know, like it's sort of a nursery school for adults, I guess. I don't know.

Scott Galloway: It's also Vegas is, and I know this firsthand, it's actually a wonderful place to retire because my mom, as you know, retired there. During the middle of the week, say on a Tuesday or Wednesday, you can go see the ABBA show or Cirque du Soleil and a dinner for like 14 bucks. They have all these local resident discounts on their off nights. And you basically can see world-class theater, concerts, and they have very high-end food for a pretty low cost of living. It's actually... and it's the desert, which old people like. It's actually a really nice place to retire.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, and plus strippers, right? I mean, you know.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, well, no, I wouldn't know about that. I didn't do that.

Kara Swisher: I used to go to that. Yeah, I lost contact with her after 20 years, about a year ago. What's the club, the stripper club? Spearmint Rhino?

Scott Galloway: Yeah, that's where all the CES guys went, and I went to, and I ran into them, and they'd lose their minds when they'd see me in the strip club. It's very funny. I haven't been to a strip club in 20 or 30 years. I have a general rule. I don't eat fast food or go to strip clubs in the city I live in.

Kara Swisher: Okay. All right. Well, we can do it on every night in the tour and stuff.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, that's not going to happen, Cara.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, I'm in Vegas. I'm leaving. I'm going to Korea this week.

Scott Galloway: Korea?

Kara Swisher: I'm going to Korea.

Scott Galloway: She had to stop this. Why are you going to Korea?

Kara Swisher: It's for The Secret Show.

Scott Galloway: For The Secret Show. Oh, God.

Kara Swisher: It's the last episode. They want to introduce it. Korea is where I know a bunch of women who take trips to Korea to look... not look Korean, but to look younger. I guess Korea, they're obsessed with beauty and they're very good at it.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, yeah, they are.

Kara Swisher: So we're going to do a little bit. They're also one of the most aging populations and they're the country that's doing the most about it. Like, I'm going to be in an exoskeleton or whatever. But they're planning a lot for their aging population in a really interesting way.

Scott Galloway: So they're bringing you over to inspire young people to start having sex? I missed the gap there. I missed the connection.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, I'm going to put some shrimp semen lotion on my face. That's what I'm doing. And I'm going to bring some back for you.

Scott Galloway: You know, there's a component of that that is appealing, but it's not... Yeah. Yeah, I'm not even going to go there. I feel like you're giving me so many softballs here.

Kara Swisher: I'm giving them to you. I'm throwing them up and you're not taking... Shrimp semen?

Scott Galloway: You could do nothing with shrimp semen?

Kara Swisher: That is not the facial I imagine nor want to see. All right.

Scott Galloway: Okay, scallop semen. I don't know.

Kara Swisher: They're going to have all kinds. There's always the word semen in their facials.

Scott Galloway: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: I'm excited. Supposedly only one in 20... So one in 20 or one in 200, some scary low number of Koreans is going to have a grandkid because of basically... as women get more economically viable and quite frankly, get smarter, more educated, they decide this whole kid thing kind of sucks for me. And they stop having children. And essentially that book in the 70s, it said that the world was going to collapse on itself and that there was going to be a population bomb. Well, the bomb exploded, except it didn't explode. It imploded. And we're having trouble figuring out how Western nations and democracies maintain population growth. And the percentage of young people to old people is just shrinking every year.

Scott Galloway: Right, which is why, hence, Cara's going to Korea to talk about it.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, and old people have this habit of voting themselves more money. And before you know it, young people are 24% less wealthy than they were 40 years ago as they are in the U.S. And old people are 72% wealthier. And our society is kind of turning upside down and young people have no hope.

Scott Galloway: Okay, Elon. Got it. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

Kara Swisher: No, I'm going to talk about this topic. And this is the topic. This is the topic. Anyway, last time I was there, I was with Walt when we were deciding where to have our Asia conference. And Korea, we considered Seoul for a minute. I really do like Seoul though. I don't know how many times you've been there, but I really like it a lot.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I haven't been there since business school. I'm kind of curious to go back and check it out.

Kara Swisher: I'm going to get on a bullet train. You know, things like that. It should be fun.

Scott Galloway: Before or after you get a facial?

Kara Swisher: All of it. All of it. I can't even, like...

Scott Galloway: You're going to do? This is literally like... Korea. This is like a 12-step method to get me to stop watching your porn. As I type in "facial" and I see you in Korea. It's literally... okay, that's it. No more porn. I'm done. I'm cured.

Kara Swisher: Anyway. I'm cured. I'm one of those people that doesn't drink and doesn't watch porn. Endless taping of TV. I see your pain.

Scott Galloway: Speaking of people who abstain, I met literally the woman of my dreams right after I moved to New York. I'm going to say her name because she's really a cool woman. Her name was Olivia Shantakai. This will get to her and she will absolutely freak out. And she had a cosmetics line. She was smart. She was funny. She was spectacular. And I was in full-blown douchebag mode.

Kara Swisher: Because you had hair.

Scott Galloway: I had bought a house in the Hamptons with a sand beach volleyball court, which gives you a sense of the mode I was in.

Kara Swisher: You're like a Sex and the City character.

Scott Galloway: I buy the house in the Hamptons. I am just optimized. I have a place in Miami. I'm just optimized for the random sexual encounters that did not materialize for me. Anyways, and I met this woman, Olivia, at a party, and I worked it so hard. I would find out... I would try to accidentally be at a party she was at. I'd lay on a little of the dog charm, a little reticent humor. And I had this whole rap about I was a professor and whatever. I was trying so hard. And finally, finally, I get her to go out on a date with me. And we went to this place. This is how clueless I was. So we went to this place called Blue Water Grill, which might as well be like a corporation exploding into a restaurant because I didn't know where to take her. And we sat down and we started talking and the guy came over and he said, "Can I get you guys something to drink?" And I said to her, yeah. I said, "I'll have a... yeah." I said to her, I said, "What would you like to drink?" And she said, "I don't drink." And literally, instinctively, I go, "It's not going to work. It's not going to work."

Kara Swisher: You said that out loud?

Scott Galloway: Oh, yeah. I'm like, "It's not going to work." And she's like, "What?" And I'm like, "It's not going to work. We can be friends, but it's not going to work." And she's like, "What?" And I'm like, "Imagine this coming at you sober. It's just not going to happen. It's just not going to happen. I've never dated a woman who doesn't drink." Oh, well, we never will date. So who knows if I had... me and Olivia, it could have been a great romance.

Kara Swisher: Oh my God, where is this going? So no drinking.

Scott Galloway: No, I just can't. I can't date anyone that doesn't drink. It's just like, I have no interest.

Kara Swisher: Well, your wife likes to enjoy herself. She has a good time with her team of ladies. She's funny. Who's this? Your wife is fun. Your wife is a lot of fun.

Scott Galloway: Oh, yeah. She's in the midst of a midlife crisis that puts everything...

Kara Swisher: No, she's not.

Scott Galloway: Oh, my God. Her and her friends. She's having some fun. Let me just dial you into what happens when women hit a certain age. They had their hot 20s, and they gave up their hot 20s because they got basically... guys found them and started procreating with them. And then they had the mess of kids. And then all of a sudden, they wake up, and they're in their late 30s, early 40s, and they're like, "Oh, my God, I'm losing my hotness. My eggs are dying. I got to go crazy." They go to music festivals.

Kara Swisher: It's called having a life.

Scott Galloway: They hang out with younger men. They experiment with drugs. The midlife crisis of a woman in her late 30s, early 40s is the most underreported explosion of hormonal loss, fear. Oh, my God, they go crazy. The guys, like, I don't do this, but when their husbands get together, they go golfing or in bed by 7 p.m.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, that's true.

Scott Galloway: And then talk about their gout and how much it sucks to get older and tax avoidance. That's our big topic. Topics. And the women are out till... I'm not exaggerating... they're out till six in the morning.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I know. Your wife's a lot of fun. I went to sleep when we were all together and they were all out running around.

Scott Galloway: Anyway, all right, we've discussed partying because I'm in Vegas and I did none of it in any case. But we've got a lot to get to today, including Anthropic and David Sacks fighting over AI regulation and colleges pushing back against Trump, which is really interesting. I can't wait to hear your take. But first, almost 7 million people gathered to take part in No Kings protests this weekend around the country. Over 2,700 events took place in 50 states. The protests were peaceful with no arrests, no arrests being made in cities like D.C. and New York, which drew the biggest crowds. Some sign highlights: "Real clowns would run things better," "I like taters, not dictators," "Tylenol is safe from the tyranny," "You sucked in Home Alone 2," "Mike Johnson blocked me on Grindr," and, of course, "Groper Cleveland." And GOP lawmakers are calling the movement a hate America rally. Still, I think they won't stop. And claiming it's a political cover for a shutdown, it looked pretty jolly to me. Of course, as usual, President Trump tried to suck up the oxygen in the room by posting an AI-generated video depicting... dropping feces... what was just a poop, a big giant diarrhea from a fighter jet onto protesters. A lot of the mainstream media wouldn't say that that's what it was. I mean, I think it was just a distraction because he didn't get any attention. Turnout was impressive. I don't know if it does much, but it was really quite amazing. It was like, that's a lot of people. And again, it was peaceful and seemed lovely and a good organizing thing, I suspect. Any thoughts?

Scott Galloway: I think it's really important. I think that, you know, I always go back to World War II, and that is what was so disappointing about World War II initially was that so many people seemed to enable it or look the other way. And then the pushback by Americans... obviously Europe had an existential threat that this guy was invading them, but America did have real controversy over whether to reenter Europe for the second time after they paid such a terrible cost in the First World War. And a lot of people didn't really understand why that was our war and we're about to do it again. And ultimately, their decision to move into the war was kind of a vision of FDR that like this will hit our shores eventually. And they weren't as much pushing back on anti-Semitism. Really, they weren't pushing back on anti-Semitism. They were pushing back on fascism. And this is, in my view, America has become very fat and happy and lazy and has taken its prosperity, its alliances, and its freedoms for granted because the majority of us have been raised in an era where those things continue to get better. And so the natural assumption is it couldn't happen here and it'll keep getting better. And I think for the first time, Americans are thinking... or first time in a while... are thinking, okay, maybe that isn't a guaranteed right. And the best summary of it to encapsulate, I think, at least how I feel about it is the following. The No Kings protest isn't about hating America, but about loving it enough to defend it. For generations, Americans have stood up when power grew too big, when truth got twisted, or when leaders forgot they served the people. This is one of those moments that defines who we are as Americans. We will stand together peacefully, not to divide the country, but to remind who we are. And that's from this great philosopher, Eric Theodore Cartman from South Park. So, but he said... I thought it just kind of perfectly encapsulated the moment. So to be clear, I'm not sure if that was AI. I did some research and some people have attributed that quote to Heather Shreve Bueller, but regardless, it's a wonderful quote. And this is, this stuff is important. And people say, well, I agree that these protests are better when there's a specific action required. But I think that when you saw those videos yesterday in your feed on social, you realize Americans are upset. Americans are prone to action. Americans will take the time to give up their Saturday and put together a sign. The Americans on this side, it always comes across as a little hippy-dippy and a little bit like Mother Jones and Cynthia Nixon with kombucha, you know, which I don't... you know, they come across. But I don't think this one did, but go ahead.

Kara Swisher: No, this one was less of that. It felt just very positive, very solid. There was some videos that really bothered me. The video flying around the Internet that really upset me was of that idiot who gets tripped and hurts his face. A lot of progressives are celebrating it and calling it karma. I don't think that's good for us or the nation.

Scott Galloway: No.

Kara Swisher: I saw a lot of people in inflatable animal costumes which I thought was hilarious. That's been going on all over the city. That's hilarious. I like those memes. You know, lots of my friends who went, they said it started... I didn't, I had the kids yesterday or the day of March. Several people said it started off kind of lefty, but then as the day grew, it was sort of all kinds of people and much more sort of people like moms and daughters and fathers and sons and stuff like that. And they said it seemed... it seemed like very, like lots of different people they were struck by. They go, you know, more than one or two protests every now and then or marches. And so I thought the photos were amazing. And again, they did a lot of really good stuff on social around the contrast between Trump's military parade, if you recall that kind of loser of a parade, and that. And it seemed... it didn't seem... festive is the wrong word. It seemed... it didn't seem...

Scott Galloway: It seemed positive.

Kara Swisher: Yes, that's right. Yeah. And I thought it was like, it's great for... I bet they collect lots of names, you know, it sort of gets people energized for the fight. And then, of course, Trump had to do a stupid thing. And I think, honestly, just so weird. It was so weird to do that and thinking it's funny when you're a 79-year-old man. And I'm sure... part of me feels like the fact that he did a pooping thing, right? An elderly man to do a poop thing, either it's sort of self-harming himself by posting it, or else whoever is working for him is doing some brutal trolling of him. I just thought it was such a weird selection. It's just more of the same. It's just a total lack of respect for Americans if they don't agree with you. And I don't know, trying to... and again, it's effective because we're talking about it and it enters the news cycle.

Scott Galloway: Well, actually, it enters the news cycle, but all his little minions did one, too, of him not leaving office or him as a king. And I keep thinking these people are like 60, 52, 79. This is like you act like a badly behaved seventh grader who nobody likes. It works. People like that. I guess. I don't know if people like the poop thing. I don't think anybody likes it. I mean, maybe if you're 12, I guess. But, well, I doubt they did.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, it was very impressive, and the media should have covered it more because I thought it was really lovely. Now, as of this recording, six colleges have rebuffed the Trump administration's so-called Compact for Academic Excellence in Higher Education. I should have covered it more because I thought it was really lovely. Now, as of this recording, six colleges have rebuffed the Trump administration's so-called compact for academic excellence and higher education ahead of the White House deadline. The agreement offers special access to federal funding in exchange for schools agreeing to a set of demands, including eliminating race and sexist factors in admissions and capping international enrollment. MIT, Brown, Penn, USC, UVA, and Dartmouth have all said no, arguing the deal would undermine free speech and academic independence. The White House initially approached nine universities and is now reaching out to more schools after a wave of rejections. Really interesting. I think really interesting that they're doing this. I don't know as much about it. How did you feel about this as someone who... you like some of it, but I think overall the government is getting its dirty mess in things that is none of their business.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, some of it... I mean, some of it sort of come... it's not even what's in there. It's not important. What's important is whether or not the federal government should be threatening to withdraw funds unless they sign up to a series of standards, some of which include what sort of distills down to thought control or who you hire. And I think the majority of it could be... or a lot of it could be perceived... freeze tuition, although that's basically a price control, that's socialism. But who you hire and who you let in, that's sort of... I don't know, I have some issues with that. Reducing the number of international students, I mean, just to riff on that for a moment. We keep talking about bringing American jobs back, and there are few. For every 1% decrease in international enrollment, we lose a billion dollars. And that is... imagine, just to highlight how stupid, fucking stupid these tariffs are... international trade wildly is asymmetrically beneficial towards us. We sell an NVIDIA GPU Hopper at $100,000. It's $55,000 of operating profit times a PE of 40. We get $2 trillion in market value. Mercedes sells a $100,000 car. Mercedes at 10% operating margin trading in a multiple of eight, they get $80,000 in shareholder value. And another great example of how asymmetric and beneficial to us our international trade is... there will be a small number of students, although it will triple or quintuple this year, of American kids who decide to go to Instituto Empresa in Madrid. And they will spend money. They will spend their American dollars and their parents' American dollars in Spain, which will grow the Spanish economy. We get hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of kids and families who come here. And at NYU, they're spending about $280,000 in tuition over four years. They're renting three, five, $7,000 apartments. They're buying Chipotle every goddamn day. And then there's the soft power of they like Americans and they stay in contact with them when they go back to run the economic ministry of El Salvador or wherever. It's just that it is so much high margin revenue for us. And to discourage foreign students by putting a cap on the number that can come here, they're looking at it the wrong way. And that is the University of North Carolina says, okay, we're going to give you $650 million, but you have to let in 82%. Now, what they should do is just expand the top line number with their endowment and letting more kids. But anyways, I don't mind that. What they need to do is the following, in my view, and I had dinner on Thursday night with the chancellor of UCLA, Julio Frank, who's a really impressive guy. And I won't speak to the specifics of the conversation, but my view is the first thing they need to do is coordinate. And that is they need to hold their tongues and elect a couple presidents of these universities to represent them all and then stand around the fire, hold hands, and say, whatever this group decides, we are going along with.

Kara Swisher: Because how they lose is to be divided. To be pulled off one by one, yeah.

Scott Galloway: That's exactly right. UCLA says, we'll take the money. And SC says, no, that's an authoritarian's playbook. You go along with me, I'll make you super rich. You don't go along with me, I'll illegally punish you. The first thing is coordination. The second thing is litigation because a lot of this is just wrong. A lot of this is... so they're trying to interpret visa rules arbitrarily. And there's a precedent against that legal decision, the 2022 DACA rescission. There's constitutional protections here. The First Amendment against compelled speech or ideological litmus test for faculty or curricula, that's a violation of the First Amendment. The Tenth Amendment, spending clause that federal funds are conditioned on political compliance. They could file in sympathetic jurisdictions. They also need to weaponize, and they haven't done this, their alumni to make financial commitments such that they have the financial wherewithal, at least in the short term. It up right... Harvard is actually up in donations. Push back. And then state counterweights. They could have legislative shields, attorney general lawsuits, parallel funding. And some they need to use the courts, coordination, inspiration around fundraising, and litigation to delay this bullshit. But they all need to speak with one voice. It seems like... I don't know who the others, the nine are, but that's one, two, three, four, five... five of them. All of them should be part of this. They should be speaking with one voice. It's sort of like the Pentagon thing last week. Just stop it. And also, I think they should go gangster. We have... universities are a corrupt cartel. They have this enforcer of the corruption, which is the accreditation. There's a board made up of the incumbents that accredits universities. And you need accreditation, otherwise you don't qualify for federal student loans. And it's just insane. They don't allow new universities. They don't accredit new ones. So what do you know? Universities have not grown. They are not adding additional universities. Students are actually... there's a bit of a birth dirt. There's a chill over international students. They think applications from international students are going to go down 20 to 40 percent. And for every student that comes here to a private university, that's literally probably like... let's think about it... that's probably $400,000 or $500,000. Say the average family spends $15,000 when they come to America. It's like 20 or 30 families not coming here to go to Disneyland and Universal Studios and see the Grand Canyon. It's just really fucking stupid. It's a huge... and in addition, our PhD students, and I've gone on about this forever, we attract the best and brightest to make our weapons, our chemotherapy, our pharmaceuticals, our internet applications. It would spill over into huge job growth. So this is just... I mean, in addition to the economic end of it, this is the bottom line. The accreditation institution should be in the forester here and say, we're speaking with one voice, bitch. And if you decide to go make a side deal with your buddies in the administration, yeah, maybe you're even legally compliant, but we're going to make it hard for you to get accredited next year. Universities need to go a little bit gangster here and speak with one voice. Otherwise, they will be picked off one at a time.

Kara Swisher: Very briefly, will they do that?

Scott Galloway: No, because they're all administrators and they lack the type of leadership. A leader needs to emerge. There's some very innovative people. I don't know who the new president of UVA is. I really think the president of Harvard has done a decent job. There needs to be a leader who steps up and calls all of them and says we either fall together or stand together. And you may have your own views on which parts of this you like or don't like. And there's a very solid argument for saying, I represent USC, so I'm going to have a dialogue. And this is what happens. The first university that cracks and agrees will get more, won't have to give up that much, and then they're going to come back for even more to number two. So they absolutely need to stand together.

Kara Swisher: Right, right, right. I made a mistake. It's six schools out of nine. But I agree. It's kind of ridiculous. And they keep winning legally. So it seems like, you know, I think the proclivity of a lot of these places, and then we're going to move on, is let's just talk. Let's not fight. Let's talk.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, let's dialogue.

Kara Swisher: Let's dialogue. That's what we do. It's typical. And so that's where they're getting it. And I thought, again, with the reporters the Pentagon did, I don't know what the result of that. We're just not going to agree. And then the people that agree are a motley, cruel, shitty, whatever, not even journalists at the Pentagon. And they look ridiculous. And I think in this case, if they stand together, as the Trump people typically fold, that always seems to be their thing, is they push and push. And then it's taco. It's essentially Taco Tuesday.

[Break for advertisements]

Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, this is an interesting story. Anthropic becomes a White House target.

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Kara Swisher: Scott, we're back. The latest feud over AI regulation is between Anthropic and the White House, specifically Trump's AI czar, David Sacks. Sacks is accusing Anthropic co-founder Jack Clark of running a, quote, "sophisticated regulatory capture strategy based on fear-mongering." Oh, did you look up all those words, David? This was in response to an essay Clark wrote about balancing optimism and caution around AI. Sacks is also claiming Anthropic positions itself as a foe of the Trump administration. And while CEO Dario Amodei, who backed Kamala Harris, isn't bending the knee like other tech CEOs, Anthropic still has a number of government contracts and partnerships. Really weird, a weird attack, I thought. And specifically calling him out as someone who's supposed to be this AI czar and supposed to be pushing all the companies and everything. And of course, those that have showed up for Trump and given him money and done all these things get all the juicy bits. It's sort of an insider game here with Sacks at the center of it. And I'm sure he's quite effective at getting what he wants around cyber and crypto and this. But to attack one company for just making normal, they want to build a brand around safety to do that. It seems bizarre. To me, I guess he wants everybody to go along with the casino that's speaking Las Vegas and the House is always in charge. But I don't know. Any thoughts on this? You said something that always struck me and that every accusation is an admission. Is that what you said?

Scott Galloway: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: Is it confession?

Scott Galloway: He wrote, "Anthropic is running a sophisticated regulatory capture strategy based on fear-mongering." No. We have never seen regulatory capture like big tech showing up to the White House. And the tariffs are effectively a transfer from the 490 that have to figure out this sclerotic strategy to the 10, the magnificent 10 that really aren't affected by a tariff. And for him to say that because Anthropic has said, "I'm not going to bend a knee on everything here" is sort of, and also let's be clear, he didn't write this, the White House wrote this. He's not going to do anything without the White House's approval. And so for some reason, Anthropic has gotten cross-eyed with the Trump administration and he's sort of threatening them.

In addition, this just, at a very baseline level, we forget the administration is not supposed to speak to, punish, or reward individual companies.

Kara Swisher: Correct.

Scott Galloway: That was what was so strange about it. They're supposed to pass laws that affect everybody or don't affect everybody. Or they take all AI companies on a tour of Asia with the Secretary of Commerce to try and build business. Or they say, "Here's an idea. Every AI company cannot have any technology that lets people under the age of 18 engage in synthetic relationships." You don't decide, "OK, I don't have an investment. Me and my venture firm and my buddies don't have an investment in Anthropic. So I'm going to go after them individually."

This is, and if you look at a more broader level, if you look at jobs, what's happening with jobs, job increases have gone to really big companies. And actually who's getting really hurt are small businesses. And small and medium-sized businesses are responsible for two-thirds of job growth in America. Why? Because small and medium-sized businesses have no seat at the table. They don't get to go to the White House and cut sweetheart deals and get big deals and big contracts. That's the whole thing. I was thinking about all these businesses that don't get to go to Mar-a-Lago patio, as I said.

Kara Swisher: And one of the things around this essay is read the essay that Jack wrote, Jack Clark wrote. It is essentially like, "I'm really excited about AI, but there are some things we should worry about." Like, literally, he's not a foe of the Trump administration. He's just making a normal thing that everyone, and by the way, there is a growing worry about all this, like among normal people, which Sacks never sets his foot near. And I think if you're a parent, if you're a business, everybody is, and the stock market feels very frothy based on the spend. Everyone understands what's happening here from a stock market point of view. And all he was saying was, we should be cautious, like just because he wants to have a little bit of regulation and put it in the hands of our elected officials, which would be Congress, to be passing some of this stuff. I think it's just, I was sort of really struck by how corrupt the situation has become. And of course, it puts Anthropic in a position where they're going to have to do government contracts. It's going to have to do, you know, just like this is where all the big money is for these things to grow into actual businesses. And so it's really the picking and choosing, again, socialism.

And then the weirdest thing this week was these stories of Peter Thiel's, has some thoughts on AI regulation. He's warning it could summon the Antichrist if we stop it.

Scott Galloway: I saw that.

Kara Swisher: He's giving these speeches that seem like we must do this. I'm not clear who the Antichrist is. I guess it's people who oppose the complete takeover of the government by tech billionaires. I don't even understand. He's gotten increasingly religious and good for him if he finds comfort in religion.

Scott Galloway: Peter Thiel's gotten religious?

Kara Swisher: Oh yeah. Very much so. There's a whole gang of them. I think it's a brand of Catholicism. It's a branch of it. And so, just the Antichrist? Are you kidding me? It's just the strange... So now it's becoming in terms of like a real existential fight for the future of humanity is how they're selling it. And I think believing it, actually. I don't think this is a feint. I don't. I think it's an actual belief system. It's all very strange.

Scott Galloway: You do. I use both. I try to cross-reference and use them to check each other. I use ChatGPT and I use Claude to just see. And I like Claude better. I use Claude more because I find it's better with the written word. But ChatGPT, I find, has more comprehensive data. What I have also noticed is that, and sometimes it bothers me quite frankly, is Claude is more politically correct. If I'm doing research on the shooters or the perpetrators of political violence, sometimes if you phrase the question wrong, it comes back and says, "I can't provide information on attempted murders or whatever." And then, you know, and then last night I got very upset. It wouldn't give me any information on, I wanted to see images of lesbian tech journalists getting facials in Korea, and it just wouldn't go there.

Kara Swisher: Oh, you just got that. You just got that. That just registered.

Scott Galloway: Anyways, it is more politically correct. And so my sense is that at Anthropic, they're sort of trying to be the good guys. And this guy just sort of steps out of line and doesn't line up to be part of the mafia, that David Sacks is clearly a soldier of the Don in Washington, and the degree is sign up and you're going to make a shit ton of money at the expense of the lower 490. And it seems like the head of Anthropic, good for him, has not signed up and says, "Well, actually, I have some views and I have some concerns." Because I think the collision personally between synthetic relationships and AI is just so fucking frightening. I just think it's, and they're not talking about it. I think it's going to make it seem like phones and social media were just an Easter parade. When all of a sudden we noticed that everybody or a third of the people in our life have disappeared and are no longer coming down for dinner, no longer talking to us because they have decided that their synthetic relationship knows everything and knows them, and it can run their lives.

Kara Swisher: And anyways... This is what Thiel is much more profound. Let me read a quote because one of the things is the hostility towards technology is his focus. And he, let me just read this quote because according to some Christian traditions, the Antichrist is a figure that will unify humanity under one rule, but this is from Wired, "before delivering us to the apocalypse. For Thiel, its evil is pretty much synonymous with any attempt to unite the world. How might such an Antichrist rise to power, Thiel asks, by playing on our fears of technology and seducing us into decadence with the Antichrist slogan, 'peace and safety.'" In other words, it would yoke together a terrified species by promising to rescue it from the apocalypse. And he's blaming like Nick Bostrom, who's an AI doomer, you know, who I'm not a fan of this Bostrom either, but like he's, this is like so strange and defended off. We have to stop people like this, I guess, like Anthropic, like any AI doomer. And if there's any, it's just, it's so strange that, and disturbing that this guy is at the center of power and is influencing all these people. And of course, South Park made fun of him. Peter Thiel knows the anti, is worried about the antichrist, which was a very funny episode.

Scott Galloway: I had some experience with this. I'm not, no joke. I had a dream and the devil showed up in my dreams and whispered, "I'm coming for you." And so I whispered back, "That's gay."

Kara Swisher: Why should we be worried about the most powerful people in the world that have an unbelievable command of godlike technology, who basically own the vice president, who are becoming increasingly theocratic? I mean, no worries there. No worries there. Well, I recommend South Park's Peter Thiel and the Antichrist. It's really funny. It was really, really funny. Anyway, it's worrisome, and that's enough. He's one odd duck.

Scott Galloway: Odd duck. I'd like to go to a strip club with him.

Kara Swisher: Have you ever partied with him?

Scott Galloway: No. I've been to a party at his house, yes. I had an argument with him at it.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, it was a long time ago over something I can't even remember. It was many moons ago, many iterations of Peter Thiel ago.

Scott Galloway: I'm exactly the same.

Kara Swisher: This is an interesting story. GLP-1 drug stocks fell late last week after Donald Trump said in an Oval Office press that the price of Ozempic, or as he called it, "the fat loss drug," would soon drop to $150 a month. Dr. Mehmet Oz, who's now running Medicare and Medicaid, quickly jumped in to clarify that's not a done deal yet. The clarification didn't do much to calm investors. Novo Nordisk and Eli Lilly both lost billions in market value. The price of Ozempic is currently around $1,000 a month. Talking about the implications, the price really goes down to $150. I'm of two minds. I think it should be $150, right? Like, it should be really inexpensive for people who, especially people who are overweight, to figure out a way. Because, again, with the secret thing, actually every doctor I talk to talks about the importance of these drugs on the general population. Probably it's the Antichrist because it will unify us in health. But what do you think of this? You were one of the first people to talk about the implications of GLP-1 drugs. But the prices remain stubbornly high and out of reach of most Americans on a monthly basis.

Scott Galloway: Like every year when I do my predictions deck, which I'm about to do in a month for the next year, I predict a technology of the year. And in 22 and 23, I said it was AI. First time I've done back-to-back on a technology. And in 24, I said the technology that's going to have more impact on a ground level than AI in 24 is GLP-1 drugs. I think these things are nothing short of revolutionary. I mean, the fact that if you think about when we came off the Savannah, we didn't have access to trans fats, we didn't have access to mating opportunities to replace, so we become addicted to food, to porn, to gambling, because our instincts have just not caught up to institutional production. And these things are literally scaffolding on our instincts. And when you go into the grocery store, you not only buy less food, you buy more lettuce and kale and yogurt and you buy less cookies and soda. It's just, how does it know how to turn off the parts of your brain that says, "I need to eat chocolate-covered almonds late night after my five milligram edible," which I did last night.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I had milk duds, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway: I love milk duds.

Kara Swisher: Ooh, those are really bad for you.

Scott Galloway: I know, but I love milk duds.

Kara Swisher: Anyways, the, yeah, you're not gonna find those in Korea when you're getting your facial. I know that's why I had them here last. I found them in Las Vegas, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway: There go. So, oh, in the minibar?

Kara Swisher: No.

Scott Galloway: Oh God. That's my favorite thing with my son is we bond. We go back to the hotel and we raid the minibar.

Anyways, what was disappointing about GLP-1, at least initially in the United States, was the region that had the greatest penetration of GLP-1 was also, ironically...

Kara Swisher: The richest.

Scott Galloway: The thinnest.

Kara Swisher: The thinnest, yeah.

Scott Galloway: And thinnest and richest go hand in hand. It was ladies of lunch on the Upper East Side trying to lose that last 10. That is not who needs GLP-1. I believe a decent government program would be for Medicare to repeal the legislation that says Medicare cannot negotiate on drugs. We spend two to four times more on Ozempic than they do in other nations, despite the fact that Novo Nordisk, which is a European company, we have American-produced GLP-1 drugs. I would love to see just the federal government do what it's supposed to do, and that is help prevent a tragedy of the commons and use their purchasing power to take these drugs down to 50 bucks a month, because then it becomes accretive. You will save more than that on food. And the one thing Americans share, it's not military service, it's not their ethnicity, it's not their religion. The one thing we share as Americans is that 70% of us are overweight or obese. And if you wanted to figure out a way to save $100 billion, $200 billion, a half a trillion dollars a year, you would get America down to Japanese-like levels of obesity, where only 4% of the Japanese are obese.

Kara Swisher: I think it's... It's actually more than that, because I have to say in doing all this series I'm doing, everyone's like, ultimately it's food, exercise, being rich, and sleep and stuff like that, ultimately for longevity. But every expert I talk to is like, these drugs are miraculous in terms of getting us to the place we need. Besides the really cool stuff that's happening with cancer and AI and CRISPR. This is the thing that every single, and not just that, but around issues around stroke, around, and taking it in a small amount. Like some of my doctors are like, you need to take a little bit in a small amount.

Scott Galloway: Microdose. I know a ton of people that aren't fat that microdose.

Kara Swisher: But it's more addiction, right? And drinking and cognitive stuff, all this stuff that is like around it. And of course it does worry some people that it could like make a left turn like fen-phen or whatever. But most every doctor I talk to is very much like not worried about this drug. It's a really interesting development.

Scott Galloway: About two years ago, I got invited to a dinner, to speak at a dinner, and it was neuroscientists. And I thought, wow, I would like to be in there with a bunch of neuroscientists in case I ever get sick. It's not a bad idea to have relationships with really good doctors. And so it was a dinner. There was about 16 neuroscientists and me there and the head of this hospital. And I think probably a couple of people who funded the gold circle of whatever it was, Langone. And I noticed about an hour into the dinner, I looked around the table and all the plates were half eaten. All of them. No one had finished their meal. And I said, "I can't help but to notice, but, and then people had pushed away their food or asked it to be taken away." And I'm like, I said, "This is very unusual. No one's eating their food." And I said, "Can I ask a question?" And obviously it was off the record. I said, "Who here is on GLP-1 drugs?" And they all looked at each other sheepishly, and like eight of the 14 folks, it was 12 men and two women, raised their hands. And that is supposed to be the tell for if a drug works is its adoption by the medical community itself. But these things, if you were to stop 10 people on the street in America and find 10 hardcore users of AI and 10 people on GLP-1 drugs and query them about the impact on their life emotionally, psychologically, economically, I think GLP-1 is having a much bigger impact on people than AI.

Kara Swisher: I'm talking about getting it down to the regular, you know, the people. We should give it out.

Scott Galloway: Well, that's the thing.

Kara Swisher: I did an interview with a nurse who was 350 pounds and she went down. But what they did, and then I introduced you to her doctor, who's also a well-known weight loss doctor. And it was a nutritionally focused doctor. But it was combined with learning how to cook at fresh foods and exercise. Like it's the whole package. You got to do the exercise.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. 100%.

Kara Swisher: It's the whole package and not just this is not, you just take the drug and that's it. And that's what was, I mean, I was, of all the interviews I've done for this thing, that interview was the most moving because I had dinner with her family. And one thing that was really interesting is she said to me in the kitchen, she goes, "I was embarrassed. I couldn't do things with them like they went to the Grand Canyon. It's a very fit family except for her. And they went and hiked and I couldn't do it. And I'd have two seats on an airplane." You know, the whole story of overweight people. And she goes, "I was so embarrassed for them. I was embarrassing to them." And I repeated it. She hadn't ever told her family and they were heartbroken that she felt that way. It was a really, I was very moved. You know what I mean? And it wasn't like I could, cause she tried everything. Like she tried all the diets and everything else. And I have to say, she has such a better life. Like, and it's not someone who has a lot of money, very modest house in Massachusetts, nurse, hardworking, and knows about health, right? Is not someone who's not aware of the issues. And just, it seems like she's going to live a lot longer. That's just the facts, right? And so I was like, the combination of the drug with lifestyle changes that, and the drug allows you to do the lifestyle changes more successfully is a really interesting thing. But what do you think of Trump doing this? This is like crazy. Although it's kind of good. In this case, I'm like, fine.

Scott Galloway: I love this topic. So let me back up. The reason why Gavin Newsom will likely be president in 2028 is the same reason why we should have a federal program to get GLP-1 drugs out to everyone that needs them after negotiating a ridiculously low price, and it's the following. America is an exceptionally and dangerously and unfairly classist country. And one of the strongest forward-looking indicators of whether a child is going to suffer from adulthood depression is if they're overweight. And also the American Academy of Pediatrics, which is not promiscuous around recommending drug intervention for children, has embraced GLP-1 for children. Because here's the bottom line. When you're obese in America, on many levels, you're fucked. You're going to have trouble finding a mate. You're going to have trouble getting hired. People immediately look at you and regardless of how many subscriptions to The Atlantic or The New York Times they immediately subconsciously go, "weak." And it's unfair. And then you look in the mirror and you go, "I'm weak and I have no control of my life." And in my view, after negotiating a radically low price and playing them off against each other, every household in America that is suffering from obesity, they're not a woman looking to lose her last 10 pounds. But if a doctor says obesity is a presage for diabetes for you, it is getting in the way of your mental health, it is getting in the way of your ability to exercise, this shit should be everywhere. It's like fluoride in water. Put the GLP-1 in effectively, metaphorically, in water. This would be one of the most accretive things emotionally and financially we could do in the United States over 36 months.

Kara Swisher: One of the things that I am against is like what Pete Hegseth did with fat generals. Like, making it awful, figuring out ways for people to have a better life is different than using fat shaming and everything to do it.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, no fat shaming. I 100% agree with you.

Kara Swisher: I'm just saying, that's what I'm saying. And then the second thing is, what's interesting about the Trump administration, RFK Jr. is against all this, and Oz is on the other side. So this should be a really interesting discussion, I think. It'll be interesting to see what happens here, because RFK thinks you should just jog and eat, you know, kill your own animals.

Scott Galloway: Well, yeah, but RFK is blessed with good genetics.

Kara Swisher: Exactly.

Scott Galloway: And Mehmet is a doctor, and he sees some people, you know, everybody has people who are overweight in their lives. And we immediately look at them, and we unfairly think they're weak. A lot of them are in food deserts. A lot of them don't have the money to do anything but eat cheap calories, which are fat. And quite frankly, a lot of them are just born really big. They're just, you know, they're born big. So we need empathy. Having said that, Kara, I do think there was a movement that was unproductive. And unfortunately, there's no, the pendulum is never at the middle where it's like, "Okay, let's have empathy for these people. Let's figure out programs to give them the capability. Let's give them GLP-1 drugs." But when the industrial food complex, including Coca-Cola, McDonald's, which by the way, the stock price of Coca-Cola, PepsiCo, McDonald's, KFC, they're all almost entirely correlated to obesity in the US. And so what did they do? And also, many of the major clothing brands are very much tied to plus size clothing. What did they do? They started to romanticize and celebrate obesity. And I hate to say this and I get negative comments for it.

Kara Swisher: You will.

Scott Galloway: You're not finding your truth. You're finding a fucking ventilator in diabetes. So while we have to have empathy for those people, let's at least be honest and say, folks, this is not something to romanticize and celebrate.

Kara Swisher: No, but it was because of the hatefulness that went on for decades before. I think it's okay.

Scott Galloway: It was for money, Kara.

Kara Swisher: Maybe so. Maybe so. But the kind of, I've had heavy people in my family, it's hateful, the kind of things people say.

Scott Galloway: I agree with you.

Kara Swisher: And now they have a tool to help get people there. And it is no question the right thing to do. It's just that making people feel ugly about themselves is never a prescription to good health.

Scott Galloway: We agree with that. But should we have done away with the Presidential Fitness Awards that celebrates fitness because we think of it as fat shaming?

Kara Swisher: Trump doesn't exercise. Like, he's not. Look, if he ends up dropping the price, I'm good with it.

Scott Galloway: Answer my question. I used to be very motivated to get the Presidential Fitness Award, the third, the fourth. And I didn't get the fifth years because I had a growth spurt and I couldn't do the pull-ups. And it was very motivating for me to be fit and strong.

Kara Swisher: Just one last thing. I'm virtue signaling right now. Pharmaceuticals, GLP-1 can do what, there was a drug that changed my life. Changed my life.

Scott Galloway: Harris Fisher?

Kara Swisher: And I'm still addicted to it.

Scott Galloway: What's the definition of addiction? Something you continue to engage in despite the fact it damages your life.

Kara Swisher: What's your one last thing?

Scott Galloway: That's right.

Kara Swisher: What's your one last thing?

Scott Galloway: I'm addicted. All right. And baby, if this addiction is wrong, I don't want to be right. If loving you is wrong, I don't want to be right.

Kara Swisher: What are you getting that facial? Anyways. All right.

Scott Galloway: A drug. I had until the age of 40, I had never taken an Advil. I just never took any sort of drug. I think I saw the doctor eight times up until the age of 40.

Kara Swisher: Okay.

Scott Galloway: I just didn't, my parents didn't have money.

Kara Swisher: You said short story. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway: Okay. A drug literally changed my life. Any guesses?

Kara Swisher: And it has to do with aesthetics. I don't know. Milk duds?

Kara Swisher: From the age of 13 to 19, if I was ever able to maneuver using a mix of humor, luck, and persistence to get a date, this is what you did on a date. Liquor. You would take a woman to a movie. And I remember going to see *Grease* with Melanie Burke. Moreno Burke, excuse me. That's not a short story.

Scott Galloway: Okay.

Kara Swisher: And I was so excited. I went down to this ridiculous preppy store. I saved up. I got my mom to give me her credit card. I couldn't spend more than... And I bought nice corduroys and a polo Ralph Lauren polo shirt with the actual polo logo on it. And I bought Sperry top-siders. I was just so fucking ready.

Scott Galloway: Got it.

Kara Swisher: And I go into *Grease*. And every time I went into a movie on the few dates I had, I would have to purposely plan: do I go into the aisle first or do I let her go into the aisle first? And you know what that was based on?

Scott Galloway: What?

Kara Swisher: Which side of my face had fewer zits than the other.

Scott Galloway: Oh, okay.

Kara Swisher: Every time I went to the movies, I would strategically plan which side I was going to sit on, because my acne was so bad I would have to think, which side is it less grotesque?

Scott Galloway: Oh, wow.

Kara Swisher: And finally, my dermatologist, after soaking me for six years of money I did not have, said, "Maybe we should try this drug called Accutane."

Scott Galloway: Accutane, yeah.

Kara Swisher: And in 11 weeks, I had perfect skin. Perfect skin. If you want to talk about someone going through the most sensitive, insecure, self-conscious time of their life, and they have whiteheads and their face is riddled with acne up and down their back and their throat, and all you can think about when you're talking to someone is they're staring at my zits. And they hurt, they're painful. And then nine weeks, 11 weeks later, I have perfect, beautiful skin. And all of a sudden, girls are smiling at me. And all of a sudden, I don't think about my skin. And all of a sudden, shaving isn't like navigating a fucking landmine. It's the only letter I've ever written to a corporation. I wrote to Hoffman-LaRoche and said this has absolutely changed my life.

And I felt like it was two months ago, it was seven months ago. I was at a gas station in Nantucket where they actually pump your gas.

Scott Galloway: Okay. Go ahead.

Kara Swisher: And there was a young man and he had terrible cystic acne. And I said, "Look, I'm probably overstepping my boundaries here. I had terrible acne. I took a drug called Accutane and it cleared it up in 11 weeks and it changed my life." And now, celebrities are microdosing Accutane, just so you know. But my point is, I think that GLP-1 can do that. I kind of think there's an equivalence between terrible acne and obesity. And if you can give people back their confidence, their sense of self... I mean, there's nothing more important to a young person. But let's not make people feel badly. When you see this interview, she tried everything. In any case, we think this is fascinating. We'll keep covering it. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. And when we come back, we'll talk about a major security hack. No, not the lube. Thank you.

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Scott Galloway: Scott, we're back with more news. Cybersecurity and network security company F5 says nation-state hackers broke into its systems this summer, exfiltrating files and stealing some source code. The breach has been blamed on state-backed hackers from China. Over 80% of the Fortune Global 500, as well as universities and credit unions, are F5 customers. This is as big as SolarWinds, many people I've talked to this week, actually. F5 is a publicly traded company, which would usually mean it's required to disclose cyber attacks within four business days. The DOJ allowed the company to delay notification, which it can do for attacks that pose national security risks. Really disturbing.

Kara Swisher: And I'll note early Monday morning, a major AWS outage took down services like Amazon, Snapchat, and ChatGPT. There was no indication of anything malicious at play. But again, every single cyber person I talked to this week was like, "This is bad. This is another bad." Our landscape is so porous for hackers from state-backed, especially from China. It was another disturbing thing that they didn't have to say anything, that people couldn't act. And we are so exposed from a security point of view. This was a really bad attack for people to understand how dependent we are on these kinds of things and how vulnerable.

Scott Galloway: What I don't understand is — and it's easy to heckle from the cheap seats — I've met some of our folks who run our cybersecurity or our cyber defense, and they're very popular at conferences. And by the way, most of them have been fired because they're not... They're not Republicans, which makes no fucking sense to me. But what they all say is that we actually have the best. And what I don't understand is, why isn't it like nuclear weapons in the sense that if they do something like this, shouldn't we be hitting them back three times as hard until we all come to sort of a detente?

Kara Swisher: We may be. But they were in there. One of the things that's classic of these things, they've been in there for two years. And then they place things there and then disappear and erase where they were. And that's what they've been doing. So there's very little known because they keep everything quiet. And the question is, what should people know? What should we understand about it? Everyone considers this as big as SolarWinds, which happened at the end of 2020. So I suspect lots of stuff is going on behind the scenes with this stuff. But again, the cuts by this administration expose us.

Scott Galloway: The SolarWinds happened in the Trump administration, right? It was just before Biden got into office. And it's the same thing. The idea of exposing... We have such an exposed everything between our infrastructure. The surface of attack is bigger here.

Kara Swisher: The surface of attack is bigger, and we do not have the people in place in the government as much. I mean, remember he fired Chris Krebs, who I love. But we're all interconnected, including with the federal government. And so the Chinese have been very successful. I suspect we have been hacking them too, et cetera. But there are broad risks here that I think we, as a country, have not taken seriously given our dependence on this. And even the ones that aren't deemed malicious, like this one this morning, if AWS has a major outage, all the services get affected, whether it's Amazon, the stuff we use day to day. So much of it is something we really should talk about more. And it's complex, obviously, but our country is much more exposed than people realize.

Scott Galloway: Our tech infrastructure loves scale and compatibility, right? Everything running on the same source code can be more fluid and more frictionless. And to their credit, we have 50 states and 50 different electoral procedures and 50 independent technologies tallying votes. And a lot of tech companies have said this should all be on one system. And the best defense against that is that it's feasible that one of us gets hacked, but it's very unlikely all 50 are going to get hacked because we're all on different systems. Just as technology loves scale, it creates more vulnerability because you have entire power grids now that are essentially, if someone figures out how to hack that power grid, you could have three states in the Southeast go down. And what this requires, which we don't have, is skill and resources, of which we have more than anyone in the world. What we don't have is the long game.

So, for example, I think the greatest anti-terrorist precision attack in history was the pager attack against Hezbollah. That was years in the making. And what the Chinese do is the long game. My guess is that every time there's a real cyber attack, the wheels were put in motion two or three years ago. And unfortunately, because of this political back and forth and firing and hiring, it is much more difficult. And also, just American mentality focused on quarterly earnings. American mentality does not play the long game. And the Chinese have a 50-year plan. So they already have assets on the ground here trying to implant listening devices, security code in routers that maybe in two, three, five years they activate. Because what you don't want to do is raise red flags. Red flags are a function of not only the activity, but the cluster and the concentration of them. So if it's just one or two small infiltrations and then there's not a follow-up, people don't worry as much about it. In part, our short-term thinking helps us, but on a lot of levels it hurts us. And this is one of those ways. These guys are in for the long game. They'll start putting in place the infrastructure for cyber attacks that they won't be able to activate for five or seven or 10 years.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, absolutely. Anyway, one more quick break, and we'll be back for Wins and Fails.

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Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, some wins and fails. We've got to be quick because I've got another interview soon. Why don't you start?

Scott Galloway: Well, the obvious one here is, and we spent some time talking about it, I do think that the protests were an enormous win for America. We've all been just so desperate for some pushback and wondering where Americans are. Well, 7 million turned out, and that's about 2% of the population. Supposedly, I don't know where this test comes from, but supposedly when you had 3.5%, which would be 11 million, that's when real action starts. But I just don't think there's any getting around it. A lot of Republican congressmen and senators must have noticed that and said, "Okay, there are some real issues here." So I thought at a minimum, it just gave a lot of comfort to Americans that people value our democracy. They value peaceful protest and they're resisting and they're willing to give up their own time and they really do value the blessings, the liberties, and the prosperity. So look, that's my win. I thought it was really, really wonderful and inspiring. And I tried to take my kids to the tube station where their mother slept to talk about fascism. They wanted nothing to do with it. But there were protests in Germany. There were protests in the UK. They were all incredibly peaceful, incredibly positive, incredibly optimistic. It was just a good look for America, a very good look for a democracy, a very good look for people who want to resist against Trump. That's my win. That's an easy one.

The fail is George Santos, the disgraced representative. His seven-year prison sentence has been commuted by Trump after serving just three months. He pled guilty to wire fraud and aggravated identity theft. Look, he lied. He committed crimes. He was an embarrassment to the government. But the thing that really chafed me here is he's no longer required to pay back more than $370,000 in court-ordered restitution to his victims. So the people he lied to and stole from, he no longer has to pay them back. In addition, he was only the sixth lawmaker in U.S. history to be expelled from Congress after an ethics report was released outlining his behavior in 2023. He was also the first to be expelled before being convicted of federal crimes or supporting the Confederacy.

So just some of his claims: He claimed his grandparents were Holocaust survivors. They were not. He claimed that the CCP kidnapped his five-year-old niece. That is not true. He claimed to be Jewish, then Jew-ish. He claimed he was a model for *Vogue*. That's my favorite. He claimed he had a university degree. By the way, he said he went on a volleyball scholarship. That guy hasn't jumped since 1988. He claimed he had a brain tumor. And some of the more outlandish things he did well after being in Congress: he spent campaign funds on Botox, Hermès, and my favorite, OnlyFans. He started selling $200 custom videos on Cameo.

Kara Swisher: I don't think that's that bad.

Scott Galloway: He had a staffer impersonate Kevin McCarthy's chief of staff to raise money. And he committed ID theft by using donors' credit cards to make purchases.

Kara Swisher: He's just a scam artist.

Scott Galloway: There are some people who are currently incarcerated who have applied for clemency, and some of them have done their best to compensate their victims, show that they're on the right track, and are deserving of clemency. And because they're trying to get Marjorie Taylor Greene back in camp, and she seemed to like George Santos, they move a guy who showed no remorse, who is a fucking embarrassment to the Constitution, to America. They push this guy to the front of the line, and the people he stole from are shit out of luck, all so the president can kiss Marjorie Taylor Greene's ass. This is such an abuse of the whole basic understanding of what clemency is. Clemency and pardoning is a wonderful thing. We get it wrong all the time in our justice system. The justice system is a powerful but crude instrument. And we find out new evidence comes to light, or we find out that strange laws resulted in a guy who stole an antenna from a K-Mart getting a life sentence. And these things are taken seriously, and very talented people review these things. And we're just making a mockery of the system. Anyway, my fail is that Representative George Santos' sentence was commuted because of the president's attempt to get Marjorie Taylor Greene to stop talking about the Epstein files. And by the way, my favorite sign was "GOP: Guardians of Pedophiles."

Kara Swisher: Anyway, my fail is these issues around these tech companies and safety, like pushing back against the idea there should be safety. But it's more than that. There's a great story in the *New York Times* today about how as tech companies build data centers worldwide to advance artificial intelligence, vulnerable communities have been hit by blackouts and water shortages. The idea that we are against advancing technology at any cost is ridiculous. They're setting it up so that they get all the juicy bits and they hurt people around the globe. 60% of the data centers are outside of the U.S., and there are lots of projects coming all over the place around the world. But it takes enormous amounts of power for computing and water to cool the computers. And these people are... The famous one was Musk going into a community, I think in Tennessee, and polluting it because he wanted to get his thing up faster than anyone else. And all the governments are angling to give them cheap land and tax breaks. But there is very little transparency around how they're building these data centers. And it's the same idea. They don't care about safety of anybody because they themselves are doing things. And it's really hurting individual communities. And they go into vulnerable communities to be able to do what they need to do. And it's very dangerous. And they're not really investing in the communities because most of these things use very few people. And so these plans just sail through. It's the same idea. If Anthropic wants to talk about safety, or if we want to talk about safety, it doesn't mean we hate it. It means that we care about the citizens more than lining the pockets of David Sacks and his friends.

I have two very quick wins. I've got to give credit to both Laurene Powell Jobs and Ron Conway. He resigned from the board of Salesforce's philanthropic arm over Marc Benioff's original comments about bringing the National Guard into San Francisco. Laurene Powell Jobs also wrote an essay, "Beware of Philanthropists Who Want to Control in Exchange for Their Giving." And it was a great essay about that. I really give kudos to them for stepping out rather a lot against Mark's stupid comments. He now doesn't believe the National Guard needs to come. He walked himself back, but he tarnished himself. So I give credit. Lots of people complained, but it's hard to go out on a limb if you're in that group of people, and they did.

But I actually want to give the win to *The Diplomat*. The new season is downloaded on Netflix, and Keri Russell is so good. It's such a good... Allison Janney and Bradley Whitford. Everybody on that cast is amazing.

Scott Galloway: This is so you have a crush on Keri Russell.

Kara Swisher: I love her. She's a fan of *Pivot*, by the way.

Scott Galloway: I don't have a crush on her.

Kara Swisher: Actually, I have a crush on the whole show because it's so diplomat-y. I wanted to be in the State Department, so I loved the whole... It's sort of like my home. I liked *Homeland* too.

Scott Galloway: Is she going to Korea with you?

Kara Swisher: No, she's not. But we're going to have... She's a fan of *Pivot*.

Scott Galloway: Look at you lying. No, I'm not. I just say Keri Russell and you start smiling.

Kara Swisher: No, no, no. It's okay.

Scott Galloway: You're wrong. Not my type. But nonetheless...

Kara Swisher: Even though you're 80, you still have hormones.

Scott Galloway: No, I do not. She's not my type.

Kara Swisher: You haven't taken that estrogen. You're getting a little...

Scott Galloway: I just want to say it's a great show. And lots of people like this show. Stop it.

Kara Swisher: Everyone likes to... As usual, you turn something beautiful into ugliness. But it's a great...

Scott Galloway: Never seen it.

Kara Swisher: Never seen it? All right. It's great. You would love it.

Scott Galloway: I watched four episodes of *Slow Horses* last night.

Kara Swisher: Okay. If you like that, did you like *Homeland*?

Scott Galloway: Love *Homeland*.

Kara Swisher: Okay. You'll love this. The writer of this is Debora Cahn. She's so talented. There was one line. This is why I love it. There are all these great lines. Besides, she doesn't comb her hair, et cetera, and they make jokes about it. But there's one line...

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I'm sure she looks just awful.

Kara Swisher: She's the one that like...

Scott Galloway: Yeah. But yeah, that's... Let me guess. She's really sloppy and still looks like a nine out of 10.

Kara Swisher: Eleven out of 10.

Scott Galloway: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: But she's really good. She's had a great career. She's had really interesting roles, including *The Americans* and things like that. But I don't want to talk about Keri Russell because I think she's great. But I have to say there are a lot of lines in it. The writers are terrific. And one reminded me of you, which is... They're talking about her husband, Hal, and I'm blanking on the actor's name who played him, but he's great too. But she goes, "You're about as subtle as a kidney stone," which I immediately thought of you, Scott.

Scott Galloway: I appreciate that.

Kara Swisher: "You're about as subtle as a kidney stone." Anyway, I love that show. And now you're making it ugly, which is very sad.

Scott Galloway: I have comments on all of this. Do you have to go get a pedicure with Boutros Boutros-Ghali?

Kara Swisher: No, no. Go ahead. Very quickly.

Scott Galloway: That's impossible for me. Okay, first off, the data centers. The data centers are nothing but, again, another elegant transfer of wealth from middle-class homes to big tech. How is that going to happen? They are picking these areas where they are, quote unquote, desperate for jobs, or where the congressperson representing that area wants to get some of that AI money sent to their PAC for regulatory capture or campaign fundraising. And the bottom line is these data centers might as well be dark during the day. They create very few jobs. What they do is create jobs to get built, but they create very few ongoing jobs. What they do is they are so power hungry that you are going to see 50, 100, 200, 300 percent increases in electricity costs in these areas. And what will end up happening is the government, these people will get outraged. So the government will step in and will subsidize the electricity costs of the grid, which is nothing but a transfer of wealth from taxpayers, especially people consuming electricity in those regions, to big tech firms. Everything in America right now is trying to prop up 10 firms who have been responsible for 77% of the S&P's gain this year, which is the only cloud cover that Donald Trump has to send federal troops into peaceful cities. This will be another elegant transfer of wealth.

And then what was your second one? Keri Russell? Oh wait, *The Diplomat*? Oh no, Marc Benioff. Just so I can fill our YouTube comments with a bunch of hate, I love learning about jobs. I thought it was an elegant article. I think Ron Conway is fantastic. He invested in two of my companies. This is how we lose 28. And that is, I get it. Marc Benioff said something stupid. He has since apologized. And now everyone is doing what Democrats do. They're more interested in a purity test. They're more interested in grabbing social virtue. They're more interested in getting their "Guardians of Gotcha" pin. They're more interested in going after a white billionaire than they are around being effective. Marc Benioff is a huge ally for San Francisco. He is a huge ally for Democrats. He fucked up, and he's being treated like an apostate. And this is exactly what is wrong with Democrats. Those essays were before. They said things before. And they didn't want to affiliate with him. If you're Marc Benioff, and you have literally spent 20 years trying to be the most generous guy in California, supportive of progressive policies, supportive of democratic politics, and then all these Democrats wade in with their finger because he fucked up — and he did fuck up, and by the way, he's apologized — let's just talk about the reality of this. Do you think Marc Benioff is now going to be really, really in it to win it and support Democratic candidates right now? Or is he thinking, "You know what, guys, go fuck yourselves"? This is what Democrats do. We have decided, "Maybe you're my ally, but you're holding the gun wrong. So I'm going to go after you rather than the real enemy." Could we be any more fucking stupid? And this is the typical Democratic...

Kara Swisher: Scott, he asked for the National Guard to come to San Francisco.

Scott Galloway: He fucked up. And he's also been an enormous supporter of Democratic ideals and...

Kara Swisher: And here's the thing. I'm not agreeing with you.

Scott Galloway: Oh, sorry. One strike, you're out. We're Democrats. And guess what?

Scott Galloway: J.D. Vance in 2028. This is exactly how we lose the election.

Kara Swisher: No, I think we should. Democrats are much more concerned with grabbing social virtue than they are actually getting shit done.

Scott Galloway: It's not social virtue to be critical of your own allies. It's not. It's normal.

Kara Swisher: There is such a pylon right now.

Scott Galloway: No, you're so far down the Trump world.

Kara Swisher: There is such a pylon.

Scott Galloway: Oh, yeah. Me and Trump, we're very tight.

Kara Swisher: No, no, but the Trump world is you don't apologize for anything. He did apologize. He kind of did, but that's okay. Whatever. He said, "I'm sorry."

Scott Galloway: Yes. He said my comments were real-time and I'm sorry. And now everyone's writing op-eds about how billionaires and philanthropy shouldn't rule the world.

Kara Swisher: No, that op-ed was written, by the way, before, and I think it influenced him, by the way, FYI.

Scott Galloway: Oh, my.

Kara Swisher: There is so much. I think it was. I happen to know what's happening here. There is so much hate right now out there from people who see an opportunity to pile on and grab social virtue at no risk to themselves. Guess who I interviewed? Guess who I got to go? Guess who I interviewed over the weekend? Bernie Sanders. He says we shouldn't even go in with the billionaires.

Scott Galloway: The lady giving you a squid facial in Seoul.

Kara Swisher: I interviewed Bernie Sanders and he's like, this is the problem with going with the rich people and just saying he's just...

Scott Galloway: Oh, okay. That's going to help us demonize rich people.

Kara Swisher: Not demonize them, but we... Come on. Rich people have had far...

Scott Galloway: Billionaires shouldn't exist according to Bernie Sanders.

Kara Swisher: No, no, no. Rich people have had far too much of an influence in both parties.

Scott Galloway: Agreed.

Kara Swisher: Far too much. And that's what's got to end. That's Citizens United.

Scott Galloway: Yes, I get it. But in the meantime, let's try and get as many billionaires on our side.

Kara Swisher: No, no. We've got to build a coalition of everybody. People saying maybe it would be smart to bring Elon Musk back into the Democratic Party are taking a great Democrat who fucked up and basically casting him onto an island.

Scott Galloway: They won't let him into the Trump gang anyway, so it doesn't matter.

Kara Swisher: That said, we should have not... There's been too much billionaire influence of all the billionaires on all sides.

Scott Galloway: Agreed. And it has to stop.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, we're not going to argue. Okay, for Citizens United, you're saying we should... I agree with you, we should do away with Citizens United.

Scott Galloway: Okay. I'm up for it.

Kara Swisher: Let's end on that. There's common ground.

Scott Galloway: By the way, Mike Johnson, swear in Democratic Representative Grijalva, you squirmy little bitch. Put her in office. That was awful. Put her in office because you don't want the Epstein... What a lie. What a lie. The guy running the country right now is in an unmarked grave. Jeffrey Epstein is running the country right now. I swear. Put her in office. She was elected by people.

Kara Swisher: I want the people to speak. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Elsewhere in the Kara Swisher universe, this week on On with the Kara Swisher Show, I just spoke with Senator Bernie Sanders just as he got back from the No Kings rally. Let's listen to what he had to say about pushing back against billionaires.

[Audio clip of Bernie Sanders plays]

Bernie Sanders: Money is important. I'm a politician. You don't need zillions of dollars to run a campaign. You need a certain amount, and you can win. But ultimately, you've got to get rid of the Citizens United, which allows billionaires to buy elections.

[Audio clip ends]

Kara Swisher: So he turns on billionaires. Just ignore it. Just say good for them if they want to contribute and play a role. That's fine. I mean, I appreciate that. There are a lot of decent people who happen to be billionaires. They think that democracy and truth is important. God bless them. But the future of this country depends on working class people standing up and taking on the billionaire class, which is getting richer and richer.

Scott Galloway: I agree with all of that.

Kara Swisher: See, there you go. Now, see, you didn't think that that was the case. He's very reasonable.

Scott Galloway: Anyway, and reminder. I like Bernie.

Kara Swisher: I know, I do too. Lots of people do. It was amazing that a lot of Bernie bros went to Trump. I think they're coming back in a lot of ways, a lot of his messages. He's coming around. Suddenly everyone's coming around to Bernie. And a reminder, we're going on tour. We'll be going to Toronto, Boston, New York, D.C., Chicago, San Francisco, and L.A. Visit pivottour.com for tickets. There's very few left, actually. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Scott, next time I see you, I will have had my shrimp semen facial. I'll let you know how it goes. Read us out.

Scott Galloway: Today's show was produced by Larry Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Nurtad entered this episode. Jim Mackle edited the video. Additional support from Brad Sylvester and Rosemarie Ho. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Mia Silverio, and Dan Chillon. Nishat Kuroz, Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from the New York Magazine and Vox Media Podcast Network. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Kara, I call my penis Bernie Sanders because it leans far left and stands up for everyone.

Kara Swisher: That's good. That's bad.

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