Debate Reax, Taylor's Endorsement, Apple's AI Upgrades

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[Podcast begins]

Kara Swisher: Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway: And you're on TV. You're filming. I know you're not allowed to talk about it.

Kara Swisher: Can't talk about it.

Scott Galloway: When it comes out, I'll tell you. But I'm on a pretty big TV show. I play myself because I'm really good at that. And that's all I can say. But it was hot. It was fun. The only thing is, filming all day — we can't say the name of the show — but filming all day is exhausting. For six or seven minutes, it's astonishing how many people are involved, how many camera moves. I just gotta say, I couldn't do it for a living.

Kara Swisher: Oh, it's incredibly boring on set. It's boring and grueling.

Scott Galloway: And I have to say, everyone was amazing on set, including the hair people, the camera people. But it's tiresome. And then repeating the same lines. I don't know, I just — it'll be interesting when they make your — let's talk to somebody about — we can talk about your thing, your movie.

Kara Swisher: Just for people's reminder, Scott has a TV show coming up called Thumblight. So you'll be on the set. Will you be on the set a lot or not?

Scott Galloway: I know I'm going to be in the writer's room, but I don't know if I'll be on set.

Kara Swisher: Are you going to join the writers, Gil?

Scott Galloway: Oh, well, they've asked me to represent them. The WGA has said we're looking for more people who have their heads up their asses to kind of round out our skills. You might not be able to be in that writer's room, my friend.

Kara Swisher: I had to join SAG to do this because I've done so many.

Scott Galloway: Did you really?

Kara Swisher: Yeah, because I've done Silicon Valley and The Simpsons and one other, and then you have to join. I have to join SAG-AFTRA, which I did gladly.

Scott Galloway: That would be ironic. I don't even know how much you might have to join the union, Scott, and then they can like — speaking — they will — that will be ironic that day.

Kara Swisher: I'm very excited about Scott joins the union day.

Scott Galloway: A lot of people, when I said I joined SAG, were like, "Oh, now Scott Galloway can hate you."

Kara Swisher: I don't hate them. I hate their union.

Scott Galloway: Oh, okay.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I think essentially the same thing. Anyway, I am a proud union member now, and I'm super excited to defend the rights of workers for better pay and better equity.

Scott Galloway: Speaking of which, let's block the deal to acquire U.S. Steel such that they can actually maintain some jobs in the U.S., because we're total whores and want to pretend that manufacturing is coming back to Pennsylvania. Every single politician from Donald Trump to Biden is for that. And they're all wrong. I mean, we should talk about that. They are all incredibly wrong. It's going to destroy jobs if they don't get a bailout from Nippon Steel.

Kara Swisher: Okay. Well, it's an interesting, complex topic. It's not Dr. Blige. It's pure nationalism, jingoism, and again, more head-up-ass unions for short-term political games at the expense of their workers.

Scott Galloway: I understand that. But look, Amazon just closed several major facilities in California. Not everyone closes things — they don't get as much attention. Amazon closed major facilities because they move things around at will and they resist unions. So it plays many, many ways.

Kara Swisher: Do you know how many people U.S. Steel employs?

Scott Galloway: About 350 employees. It's now down to 20, and four are in Pittsburgh. And this is literally the talk of the town because everybody wants Pittsburgh right now. It's a swing state. Everybody wants to be seen as pro-labor. And they are literally toying with an industry and people's future. This is a lifeline from an ally. By the way, I think Japan is more pro-American than many states in America right now. So anyway, I'm beside myself, Kara.

Kara Swisher: I see that. As usual, union people, come talk to me now that we're together. We'll figure out what we're going to do. Raise minimum wage to $25 an hour.

Scott Galloway: I know. I got that. I know your argument. It's got to be a fulcrum against whatever these companies want to do. They do. The pay of CEOs has gotten out of hand.

Kara Swisher: That's an interesting misdirect. I agree. It's complex is my whole point. We're not having this argument. I wasn't prepared for it. So I got home on a red eye after my Hollywood debut. But we've got a lot to get to today. There are other things. Are you back in D.C.?

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I'm back in D.C. And guess where I'm coming tonight? I literally took a red eye last night in order to get to your birthday party.

Kara Swisher: And you're coming to Aberdeen, Scotland tonight?

Scott Galloway: That is correct.

Kara Swisher: Carrie, you're going to have another stroke.

Scott Galloway: No, I'm not. I have the things. I've taken the pills. I'm going to be fine. I'll be good.

Scott Galloway: You are literally — I mean this sincerely — you are the hardest working woman in showbiz. I mean that sincerely. You are relentless.

Kara Swisher: I interviewed Nancy Pelosi in Austin on Sunday or Saturday. And then I was in San Francisco for the Apple event. And then I flew to this holiday thing. Yes, I am. But I'm coming to your party, hell or high water.

Scott Galloway: If I went to D.C. on a Thursday or Wednesday night and then to Aberdeen, Scotland on a Friday night, I would need to go to a Swiss spa with male prostitutes, calla lily flowers, saran wrap, and human growth hormone. And I'd have to have little Swiss elves rubbing my feet and injecting me with something for two weeks.

Kara Swisher: Well, I assume that's your birthday party.

Scott Galloway: Pretty close.

Kara Swisher: I assume this is what's happening. I am so excited. George Hahn is coming. I can say that. G. Hahn. And Jim Vankoff. The G-Dawg is in the house.

Scott Galloway: I'm so excited to be going somewhere alone with Amanda.

Kara Swisher: That's nice. That's gonna be great.

Scott Galloway: Speaking of rich older dudes with hot younger wives, second wives, speaking of which, yeah.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, that's me.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, with new kids that are 40 years younger than your first set. Straight man. The straight man. You totally are.

Kara Swisher: So I am. I can think about it. Anyway, I have a good life.

Scott Galloway: Your benchmark, your role model are the guys.

Kara Swisher: Yes.

Scott Galloway: The tech douchebags we all criticize. Anyway. They don't have more children. They just have new hot wives.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, we've got a lot to get to today, including a major endorsement from Childless Cat Ladies, speaking of ladies, and what Apple unveiled at their big Glowtime event this week, which I was at, and I did see Tim Cook and some other executives there. But let's get right to our first big story. Former President Donald Trump says another debate with Vice President Kamala Harris probably won't happen given he believes he won the matchup on Tuesday.

Scott Galloway: What a lunatic. Nobody thinks this. But the CNN poll has Harris winning the debate 63 to 37 percent. I can't believe he got 37% given his shitty performance. And most outlets and pundits agree, including Fox News, that Harris had a dominant performance. And there's nobody who doesn't think that. Trump, meanwhile, rambled about eating pets and transgender operations on illegal aliens. And he revealed this line: "The concepts of a plan" for health care. Donald, you've only been at it 11 years. Like, we're waiting for that. Saying he wasn't — if he was president, he'd have it. But he was president. He didn't have it.

Kara Swisher: So one of our followers on Threads said, "Your debate prediction from earlier this week aged like mayo in the sun." She did great. I was worried, too. There's no question. The person who got it right was Louis Swisher, who tweeted with me.

Scott Galloway: You have children? You should bring them on a podcast.

Kara Swisher: Oh, indeed. They're excellent. We get lots of emails saying how I should replace you with him. But nonetheless. Nepo pod. Nepo-sode. It was a nepo-sode. Speaking of which, you're cheating on me with Jessica Tarloff, so don't even speak to me about these things.

Scott Galloway: Raging Moderates, the new podcast from the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Kara Swisher: She's good. Let me say, before we get to Kamala Harris, Scott has another podcast. He has a side piece, so to speak.

Scott Galloway: Side hustle?

Kara Swisher: Side pod. You have a side pod. And it's called Raging Moderates, and I'm going to tout it because that's the kind of relationship we have.

Scott Galloway: Thank you for that.

Kara Swisher: We have a poly relationship. Explain what you're doing there with Jessica, who I introduced you to. Go ahead, tell me about what it is.

Scott Galloway: I don't know if you've heard this, but I've actually been on Bill Maher several times. I love it because I do well. It's a good format for me. And because I'm a narcissist, I go home and watch the clip on YouTube and see all the comments about how smart I am. And it's really rewarding to me because I'm addicted to the affirmation of strangers. People I know and love, I don't care that much about what they think of me, but strangers, I care too much. Anyway.

Kara Swisher: Yes, we get that.

Scott Galloway: I went on with her, and I go on the YouTube channel and it's like, "Jessica's amazing. We love Jessica." I literally started off hating her because every comment was about how good she is. For those of you who don't know her, she's the sane Democrat on The Five. Her role is to let these four crazies go off, and then she says something reasonable and comes with facts. And the other four look as if they've just been walked in on by their mother masturbating. They just sit there like, "What do I say and do now?" I think she is so talented. Greg Gutfeld is always like — when she gives a fact, they just pause. They look at each other like, "Oh." Anyway, I think she's fantastic. So I pitched her on the idea of a show called Raging Moderates. What was exciting is Fox signed off on it because I'm considered Fox friendly, which I take as a sign.

Kara Swisher: I am Fox unfriendly. Largely because I call Rupert Murdoch Uncle Satan. And by the way, good luck in court, Rupert, this week. You're going to lose. Anyway, so did you like it? Was it fun cheating on me?

Scott Galloway: What's interesting is I try and take on your role and I'm realizing how hard it is. You're the maestro here. You keep it running. You organize it and ask me questions and then respond and have your own. And I'm trying to be you, and I realize how difficult that is. But it really should be called the Jessica Tarloff podcast because she brings all the insight. I just sort of say, "Huh," a lot. I'm Michael Barbaro on this. I'm like, "Huh, really? Huh. Interesting. And what does that mean?"

Kara Swisher: So let me have you have your time in the sun by saying your prediction aged like mayo in the sun. You were quite worried about her. We were both worried because of the stakes here, obviously, and the numbers. Just for some things, 67 million people watched the debate and it was all over social media. What a social media opportunity for memeing and everything else with the cats and the dogs and the transgenders, foreign transgenders who were killing babies, et cetera. Trump really had a terrible performance. That's up from 51 million for Trump-Biden. So I realize you were worried, but tell me what you thought of the ABC moderators at the debate, whether it'll move the needle. Tell me what you think about that.

Scott Galloway: Well, first off, that guy hosting it did make me question my sexuality. He's beautiful. Oh my God. And he's smart and he looks nice. I'm like, is there any chance in the next debate he'll take off his shirt?

Kara Swisher: Yeah, David Muir. Whatever his name is.

Scott Galloway: His looks hurt him. I thought he and his co-host, who by the way is also screeching hot.

Kara Swisher: I'm so glad you found him attractive.

Scott Galloway: They were very competent.

Kara Swisher: Let's try to focus on that. I thought they were very even-handed. I know the right is going nuts. They were good. They were fact-checking someone who lied 33 times versus Kamala Harris's one time. But they did it elegantly. They let him get away probably with a little too much. Okay, so the debate. I'm sorry. Let me slow down. Wait, let me tell you. There's just the best Onion headline of all time: "David Muir, Yes, My Penis Is As Beautiful As You Think. Now Let's Start the Debate."

Scott Galloway: That's all that. You forwarded that to me because you know how to make me happy. You know how to please number three.

Kara Swisher: I know. You love that guy. You know how to please your work wife.

Scott Galloway: Maybe I'll invite him to your birthday party.

Kara Swisher: You have no room. So look, this is how I would describe it. I said that I thought unfortunately she wasn't battle tested. She hadn't been on a debate stage in four years and people were underestimating how good he is on his feet. And the first 10 minutes, I was right. They started with a question on the economy. She didn't answer it at all. She seemed a little bit shaky and nervous and wobbly. He seemed, for him, fairly on point and focused. And then about moment 12, it literally just all pivoted. When the question of abortion came up, she found this inner strength and emotion talking about a 12-year-old who does not want to carry her baby to term. They do not want that. A husband whose wife is bleeding out in the parking lot of a healthcare facility because she couldn't get treatment during a miscarriage did not want that. Because he used the term "want." He said, "This is what people want." And from that moment on, the strategy — what on earth was he thinking getting prepped by Representatives Tulsi Gabbard and Matt Gaetz? You want Matt Gaetz to prepare you for a debate?

Kara Swisher: I know.

Scott Galloway: The people who prepped her — masterclass. And this is what they did. David Plouffe probably. They said, "Don't respond to this weirdness. We want you to talk about policy. We want you to use real emotion." And here's the critical part: every point, you're going to spend the last 10 or 15 seconds triggering him. "Look at his crowds. They get exhausted. They're exhausted and tired and they leave." "Oh, I didn't inherit $450 million." And then he would spend 50% of the remaining time, instead of focusing on policy and arguing the points, he would spend it being triggered. "What she just said. Let me tell you about the debate. Let me tell you about my crowds." Exactly. That's exactly what she did. And it was brilliant. Bait hook. It put him on his heels the entire time. And then he just lost it. Every synapse that fires is old stuff. It's like when you — I remember I took an IQ test when I was in third grade. They wanted me to skip to fifth grade. That's me bragging. They would do these things with a stopwatch: "Just mention as many words as possible. Go." That's what it felt like with him. He just started going all over the map. It was his greatest hits. Whether it was the pets being eaten in Ohio, which I can't believe he brought it up.

Kara Swisher: Seriously. One of the reasons —

Scott Galloway: Executing babies? Besides Matt Gaetz and Tulsi, whatever, the babies being killed. And then he got corrected — "after birth" — which they corrected him immediately. No one has done that. He keeps saying that the Democrats are killing babies after they're born. It doesn't work. It seems crazy. It's like crazy Uncle Joe kind of thing.

Kara Swisher: It was interesting how quickly that happened, how she triggered him and it worked. But she kept doing it, and it kept working. That, to me, was really — he couldn't recover for some reason. The Fox poll showed her winning 70 to 30. And be clear, 70 to 30 does not reflect how dramatic that number is because 20% of that poll — if Trump came out, killed a puppy, threw up and passed out, 20% would say he won. So basically anyone that had any reasonable chance or judgment or discretion around evaluating the debate said she won.

Scott Galloway: In a word, she and her team were outstanding. And I can tell you, Kara, I didn't realize — people say the word "triggered" and whenever they read my newsletter, they fill up my comments with "You suffer from Trump derangement syndrome." And I'm like, "No, I suffer from democracy addiction syndrome." I'm just done with this bullshit of you accusing me of having some sort of psychological dysfunction because I've gotten used to this whole democracy, prosperity, and civil rights thing. Anyway, this was after 75 minutes — it was 90 minutes long. It was like 3:15 here. I turned it off and I'm like, "Oh my God, I'm going to sleep so well tonight. I don't care what she does the next 15 minutes. She's won." Let's be clear, and anyone who listens to this podcast knows this: I am not the most rabid fan of Vice President Harris. She was outstanding. Outstanding. She was strategic. She was smart. She had real authentic emotion in her voice when it mattered. She put him off his game, onto his heels. She was playing offense. I was absolutely blown away. And what's interesting is that I threaded this: an old man who was too old has a terrible disastrous debate and his party decides to distance themselves from him. That happened for the second time.

Kara Swisher: They're not going to distance themselves.

Scott Galloway: Oh, they'll start hedging. Some of the moderates will start hedging.

Kara Swisher: Oh, they're saying it was ABC's fault. It was this — look, your man sucked. It's interesting. The person who did say it was someone I've been trying to get on my podcast who has told me he can't come on because of Fox News: Karl Rove. And he wrote, "It was no contest. Mrs. Harris came across as calm, confident, strong, focused on the future. Mr. Trump came across as hot, angry, and fixated on the past, especially his own. She mastered the split screen, projecting confidence and wordlessly undercutting him by smiling while shaking her head as he spoke. Many undecided and swing voters will make up their minds less on any single issue than on their visceral reactions to the candidates. Ms. Harris did herself much good with that crowd Tuesday. Mr. Trump didn't. Even more voters wanted to learn something new and reassuring about the candidates in the debate. She proved them plenty. Well, he didn't." This could have been written by — and the last line he writes here: "Will this debate have an effect? Yes, though perhaps not as much as Team Harris hopes or as much as Team Trump might fear. But there's no putting lipstick on this pig. Mr. Trump was crushed by a woman he previously dismissed as dumb as a rock, which raises the question, what does that make him?" Whoa, Karl Rove. And now I will endorse Kamala Harris. It was really something.

Scott Galloway: Every debate team in high school, that's going to be required reading in dealing with — because she was calm. Quite frankly, a lot of questions she just shouldn't answer. But she put him on the defensive and he just came across — I just think she's presidential, which was her goal. All of a sudden he's become the crazy old man, or he's become the incompetent old man.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. So let me ask you, what should she do next? What should he do next? Very briefly, because I want to get to Taylor Swift.

Scott Galloway: I think that he needs to — I can't even go. I'm so emotionally biased against him. It's hard for me to try and figure out what he can do other than just not be crazy and stop talking about animals being eaten. No one's coming for Fluffy. No one believes that. Saying that there are millions of trans criminals and she's a Marxist. I mean, it's just like, come on, boss. Talk about your economic policies. Stay on point. He just can't seem to do it.

Kara Swisher: I think she should go on offense. I think she has confidence now. She has her talking points. If I were her, I'd be doing two to three press interviews a week now. I think she goes on offense.

Scott Galloway: I agree. I think that's critical. I think she should talk to Kara Swisher, among others. But not just me — local news, bloggers, influencers, weird things, people that don't like her. She should go on Neil Cavuto in a second. She should definitely put herself in harm's way. And I think she can handle it. You've got to go into enemy lines. If you want to say you're combat ready, you've got to go into combat.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. Pete Buttigieg does it really well. She should take a page from that. We'll see if she does that. She really can't hide now. She's got to come out and really push it. So does Governor Newsom, by the way. He's very good in enemy territory. He's actually better in enemy territory than friendly territory, which is interesting.

Scott Galloway: He is. He is.

Kara Swisher: He is. I think everyone feels good about what she did. We'll see. But it's still incredibly close. But one person who might move the needle is self-described childless cat lady Taylor Swift, who endorsed Kamala Harris just after the debate. Apparently it wasn't coordinated. I don't know. There was a lot of reporting on it and it seems it wasn't. In an Instagram post shared with her 284 million followers — by the way, she disdained Twitter. She did not put it on Twitter — Taylor blasted recent AI images of her falsely endorsing Trump and said she wanted to combat misinformation with the truth. And she declared, "I've done my research and I made my choice." And obviously it was Kamala Harris.

Scott Galloway: Impact. Taylor's Instagram post led directly to over 337,000 people visiting vote.gov on Wednesday afternoon. Trump says Taylor will pay a price for the endorsement in the marketplace. She'll get more money is what's going to happen. And of course, Elon Musk could not keep out of it because he's a creepy stalker by saying, "Fine, Taylor, you win. I'll give you a child and guard your cats with my life." Because he literally can't stand not being the center of attention. And he's done this before with women, with AOC and several others, and it's repulsive. It was repulsive. I think this will have a big impact, actually. And I thought it was done beautifully. And she called herself a childless cat lady. So she hit all the notes in her endorsement. On a gross level, I think neither the debate nor Taylor Swift's endorsement move the needle a lot. But on a relative basis, any movement of the needle is super important because there's just not that many votes up for grabs. You're talking about a small number of votes in a small number of states. And the most encouraging thing is supposedly about a third of a million people visited vote.gov as of Wednesday afternoon after her endorsement.

Kara Swisher: I think it was smart for her. I read her endorsement. I thought it was very elegant and funny. It was just such a dumb move of him to put up that AI-generated fake meme of her endorsing him. She is a phenomenon. More people listen to Taylor Swift music than all of jazz or all of classical music combined. That's how big she is. And I think the most authentic thing about her endorsement was it was as if she was forced to make an endorsement. She didn't come across as political, like "I want to be heard, I'm not going to stay in my lane." It was as if the Trump administration backed her into a corner and forced her to clarify her views. So it was kind of perfect for her. And then the thing that's most disturbing here is Trump said Taylor will "pay a price" for the endorsement in the marketplace. What does that mean?

Scott Galloway: He gonna have Ted Nugent play at his granddaughter's bat mitzvah? I mean exactly. He's got to stop with these threats, saying there's going to be long — if he basically said around election interference, there's going to be long-term prison sentences. By the way, presidents don't decide prison sentences. He's basically saying, "If you aren't willing to cheat for me and I win, I'm going to try and put you in prison."

Kara Swisher: Right. I mean, it's just sounding so blatantly autocratic. Anyway, what do you think?

Scott Galloway: I think she is going to have a huge impact. I think she did it beautifully, like you said, in a very clever way. I think it led to a spate of others. It was sort of like the George Clooney letter. Tons of very popular people suddenly — even Linda Ronstadt did one. Lots of people. And they all have fans who respect them. And interestingly, the Trump spokesperson called her a "teeny bopper." It makes him seem — what is a teeny bopper? That's from the 50s, right? "Let's go get a sundae. Let's go down to the malt shop. Oh, she's a teeny bopper." And then they put Vance out, creep number two, saying, "Oh, she doesn't matter. I like her music, but she doesn't matter." And you're like, would you just not say anything because you look like an idiot?

Kara Swisher: Right. And I know people do care about grocery prices. I do think inflation's down a little bit. I think people do care about those things, but they also care about Taylor Swift. And to insult her is such a mistake. And then the last thing, J.D. Vance is so dumb, I don't even understand it. He goes, "Nobody likes a billionaire celebrity." I was like, your boss is a billionaire celebrity. And then the Elon thing was just repulsive. And his daughter smacked him down on that one. That was grotesque, his weird, rapey comments.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, the thing that really frustrated me — I thought she was outstanding. So immediately, because I'm unhappy, I went to what I don't like. I think both of their stated economic policies are so terrible and so populist. Her price controls make no sense. Both of them on this "no taxes on tips" populist bullshit. Both of them trying to protect steel because they think it's some sort of American icon when it's going to end up with less jobs if they don't let the pawn actually come in and invest. Their economic policy so far — even, I want to be clear, Vice President Harris has proposed a tax credit for new businesses. I don't like that. I think as a small business owner, we are the most tax advantaged sector in America other than real estate. And the reality is with that kind of tax credit, you'd have too many shitty businesses being started. They should do away with regulations, but they shouldn't give people $50,000 to start a business. I think that's a bad idea and pure populism.

Kara Swisher: What do you like?

Kara Swisher: Oh, I love the child tax credit. I like the idea of some sort of not a wealth tax, but we need to restore a more progressive tax structure. But it should be an alternative minimum tax, not a wealth tax, which just does not work. But both of their economic policies are purely populist at this point. And Trump tariffs. Everyone is like, go with Harris on this because the tariff stuff is... Goldman Sachs said his policies will cause inflation.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, that her economic plan would result in stronger growth. Anyways, his tariffs, a combination of tariffs and an anti-immigration policy, it's as if you set out to restore inflation to record highs, decrease the labor pool, send wages up in specific areas where we desperately need immigrants, and put a tax on everything through tariffs. And we'll raise the deficit by giving rich people tax cuts. And by the way, the CPI just came out and it's two and a half percent. It's the lowest it's been in three years. Inflation is now almost down to its target.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. Well, we'll see. I think she did herself a great deal of good. She doesn't have very much time, but there's still enough time. She's got to really get people excited. She just got people excited again. She's good at this. So far, she's done a great job. Now she's got to put more meat on the bones. I think a lot of the independent, all these undecided voters are like, we need more information. I would also argue that if she loses, it's kind of our fault in the sense that there's a group of people that feel very passionate and are willing to get emotional and talk about this. We need canvassing. The difference between an opinion and a principle is that you're willing to sacrifice for something. People have got to decide if they really do believe that he or she is an existential threat to America's future. Well, okay, fine. What are you doing? Are you canvassing? Are you giving money? Are you talking to people? Are you signing up voters to be registered? Are you helping to go... I did this once in San Francisco, you go to people and actually walk them who may not have an easy time getting to the polling stations. There is so much rhetoric. There's so much heat. You've got to get off of Twitter or whatever and do something.

Scott Galloway: You know what I've started to do? It's interesting. I find people I know are sort of on the fence, sort of Trump. Kamala Curious, I keep calling them. And I sit and talk with them about her. And you can see them not wanting to vote for Trump. They do not like Trump. There's a group that loves him, period. But a lot of people don't like him, and they don't want to vote for him. If you sit... I think I've convinced 10 people to vote for her at least. And I just keep doing it everywhere I go.

Kara Swisher: I'm like, listen, I know her. Let me tell you the person I know. She is much more conservative than you think. I said, let me lay it out for you. She's got to bring that information to them, but that's the thing I'm doing. I'm going around and saying, this is what I think. I agree with you here. That's maybe problematic, but what about this? And when I say tariffs and stuff like that, they then go, yeah, tariffs are bad. And I was like, tariffs are communist.

Scott Galloway: I do something that's much easier and more scalable. I say to someone, if you commit now to voting for Vice President Harris, right now, right here, I will give you five seconds of uninterrupted eye contact.

Kara Swisher: Oh, that's repulsive.

Scott Galloway: Say you'll do it for Trump and it'll work. I've said that several times and people just sort of pause and then try and end the conversation and walk away.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Scott Galloway: And as they're walking away, I say, okay, seven seconds, seven seconds.

Kara Swisher: Right, right, right. That's very Elon Musk. Anyway, we have a sweet moment of relief here. And Trump was fucking nuts with those animals. He's really... Hide your dogs. Hide Daisy. You know who he's hanging out with all the time? Laura Loomer. She's a lunatic. Even Marjorie Taylor Greene thinks she's a racist. She insulted all these Indians. She's with him all the time. There are a few natural resources we have been able to extract from the rest of the world that have added more value than Indian Americans or Indians immigrating to America. It was shocking what she said. And then Marjorie Taylor Greene went after her and said this is racist, which is sort of like... and then she went after Marjorie Taylor Greene for being a whore essentially.

Scott Galloway: And Trump doesn't like her and he likes me. Isn't that Lauren Boebert?

Kara Swisher: Oh, I'm slut shaming. No, she was. Lauren, I'd like a date. She said, no. Raging moderates. Let's rage. We're moderates. Let's rage. So they started fighting, Laura Loomer, who's heinous, and Marjorie Taylor Greene, who's heinous. Although I was on Marjorie's side this time. And someone on Threads, which I thought was very funny, said it's like watching Chlamydia fight gonorrhea.

Scott Galloway: Oh, God.

Kara Swisher: That's bad. Anyhow, it's going well for the Trump campaign. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about Apple bringing AI to its new models and take a listener mail question about who's really responsible for keeping kids safe online. One of our favorite topics.

[AD BREAK]

Kara Swisher: Scott, we're back with our second big story. I went to the Apple event this week, drove my little self out to Cupertino. The beautiful and delicious snacks there. They have such good snacks. At the event, Apple unveiled the iPhone 16, which is designed to run Apple's generative AI, Apple Intelligence. Starting next month, the phones will summarize notifications, offer writing recommendations and help you find photos. Other capabilities will come over time. That was the most interesting part to me of the AI stuff. For requests not related to personal information, the phones will route to ChatGPT as a result of the company's deal with OpenAI and some other services. It'll be in a private cloud, they say. Wall Street analysts predict new features will help Apple sell 240 million phones next year, a 12% increase from this year. Would you like to weigh in? I have thoughts since I was there, seeing the whole presentation and talking. Why don't you go first, Kara? You were there.

Kara Swisher: Well, I thought I will buy this phone. I have a 14, and I didn't buy the 15 because it was a better phone, but it wasn't that much better. There are a couple things that I thought were interesting. I'm not so... the Apple Intelligence, they will get it right over time. It'll help summarize this and that. I don't find the ones on Google Mail or anything else very helpful. I don't use them. I don't use it on Microsoft, whatever. They always are asking, would you like help? And I see what they're trying to do, but I haven't found efficacy in any of it. We'll see how they do. I thought the photo search stuff was great. That's one area of real friction for me, when I want to find photos. Whereas with Google Photos, for example, it's all just natural language, which I thought was interesting. It's not quite there yet. Some of the stuff is in beta, but I was encouraged by it. They're much thinner phones, I would say. Not tons thinner, but thinner. They have a new chip in them, the A18 chip. They have a better battery which is much longer and more streamlined. And there are two, it sounds crazy, actual things: these buttons on them. One's an action button on the side that I think is useful. You can have like six to nine uses. You use it for your flashlight. Other times it calls up whatever you use a lot, Uber, whatever it happens to be. And then there's a camera toggle that I think is really great. It's almost like a camera clicker on the side. It's very sleek. And I thought it was incredibly helpful. I know it sounds dumb, but reducing steps is something I'm very interested in on the phone because I do a lot of steps. I thought that was great. I was super interested in the watch. I have an Apple Watch 8. And the 10 is beautiful. It's really quite beautiful. And I think it's much better. It's much sleeker. It does a lot more. That I certainly will buy. The AirPods are getting an update. And there was an interesting thing about the hearing, turning them from mild to mid-level hearing loss, making them hearing aids was interesting. The sleep apnea stuff, I don't happen to have that, but it's adding more capabilities to these devices. And the working together of them was interesting. I think it will get people to switch. It's a good enough shift. And the camera stuff, the spatial photography was... it wasn't like, wow, but it was like, these are very competent people making great changes. We'll see on the AI. I don't think anyone's covering themselves in glory on this stuff. But I think it's a slow moving thing. What do you think?

Scott Galloway: Oh, one word perfectly describes this: underwhelming. And of course, I went to my favorite source for tech reviews. I went to Wired Online and read an article by Robert Dowling and Adam Kyler, I believe the name is. Anyways, they summarized it perfectly. Numerous features present in the newest model have been common among competitor brands for quite some time. Moreover, they said the design changes like repositioning the camera lenses are not innovation. It's just moving shit around. And then what I thought kind of summarized it up was it felt more like... why have a release when it's clear you don't have any breakthroughs, but essentially it's just a money grab or trying to give people a reason to upgrade. And I felt... these guys are so smart. I think what they did was kind of a jujitsu move. As they said, there's nothing here where the bezel is different. The camera's a little different. That thing you talked about, easy access to the pictures. They improved it. They added stuff here. Incremental is a very good way to put it. I saw someone go after me and thought, what do you think? I go, well, good stuff, right? It was good stuff. And I think some of the ideas are interesting. I just... there's only so much you can do to innovate this thing. I mean, right now, actually, Huawei just came out with a new trifold phone. Have you seen this thing? It's $2,800. It has 5 million pre-orders. That's a very different direction. That's innovation. The quote I like is, what's the point of making a new iPhone all the time without a major leap in technological advancements besides just blatantly wanting more money? And that's what this was.

Kara Swisher: That's true.

Scott Galloway: And the AI stuff, shouldn't you be able to do that with an iOS upgrade? I just don't... I think it's a brilliant company. They're brilliant marketers. This was marketing. This wasn't innovation.

Kara Swisher: I would agree with you on that. But they cannot not keep up. Pixel, as you were noting, Google announced a Pixel phone that includes conversational virtual assistant, AI photo editing capabilities, and ability to ask the company's AI complex questions. So I think they had to keep up here. This was table stakes. And one of the things, and again, it was little things, but again, I'm going to get it because I think the AirPods, it stops when you're conversing. And I know some of them do and some of them don't, but they can't not keep up. I'm fascinated by this tri-fold. I definitely turned my head when I saw it. And some of these folding phones... who else has one? Samsung has a folding phone, doesn't it?

Scott Galloway: Samsung has it.

Kara Swisher: I don't know why I'm fascinated by these phones, but I am. I'll probably break one. And they're very... it's interesting. I think they have to be incremental a little bit unless they decide to completely change the phone dynamic. Or do fewer product release events and wait until you actually have something to talk about.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, but this is the most powerful luxury brand in the history of mankind. And it sends a very strong signal about who you are. Everyone immediately sees what kind of phone you have. But this event, oh my God, snoozerama. And the product that has been the most exciting Apple product, or let me put it this way, the most underhyped that doesn't get its credit, hands down, is AirPods. In 2022, AirPods sales totaled $15 billion. I didn't get more recent numbers, it's probably closer to $20 billion now. I bet I spend... it feels like I probably spend two, three hundred bucks a month on two things: sunglasses and AirPods. Because if I'm getting into a cab, it means I'm getting out without a pair of sunglasses and AirPods.

Kara Swisher: I know. I saw a couple from you. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway: I now have an unopened box of AirPods that I just travel with. I just travel with.

Kara Swisher: You have them in your apartment. Did you see them? They're everywhere. They're everywhere.

Scott Galloway: Anyways, I think I spend more on AirPods than any technology. Maybe Uber. I don't know. Hence, that's why they have to be incremental. That's why they have to. That's why AirPods got incremental updates. They have to keep them fresh.

Kara Swisher: I don't agree with you. What I'm arguing for here is that they are running out of ideas and it's becoming like, let's try and pretend this is some sort of breakthrough when it isn't.

Scott Galloway: Well, I think AI, once it becomes this assistant that talks to all your devices, really will shift your relationship with all of them. And they have all of the pieces, right? This kind of thing. And so they have to keep the pieces looking good is what they have to do.

Kara Swisher: So, and one of the, I have to say, there's the gold colored with that mesh band. It's a beautiful watch. It's a beautiful watch. They own the watch business now, practically. I know some people buy beautiful watches, but man, have they stolen that business. And I think they're going to own the hearing aid business or the lesser hearing aid business. It really is dramatic what they've done in watches.

Scott Galloway: Well, speaking of things that aren't so good for Apple and also other tech companies, the EU's top court hit Apple and Google with fines in the billions this week. The court ruled that Apple must repay over $14 billion for illegally receiving tax benefits in Ireland and that Google must pay $2.6 billion in antitrust fines for abuse of its dominant position. Both companies have been fighting the fines for almost a decade. The cases are seen as a win for antitrust regulator Margrethe Vestager's legacy. Fines, that's kind of a lot of fines, Scott. You don't like fines, but it's kind of fine.

Scott Galloway: No, I like fines. I just don't think they're... Everything's relative, though. Let me just give you an example here. The point of a fine, and the point of taxes, is it's meant to act as some sort of deterrence around behavior. Now, the deterrence is a function of the size relative to your economic power. I'll give you an example. Occasionally, I'll get an alert on American Express saying, there's a charge for $9.99 on your Amex on Amazon. Was this you? One, if yes, two, if no. It's not. It's fraud. And you know what I hit? One, it was me. Because for $10 and some limited fraud, that is less of a cost to me than having to wait for a week to get another fucking credit card and having every single site that already has my card have to be re-registered. And the credit card companies, generally speaking, do a pretty good job of cauterizing repeat fraud. So I will lie because I have money. I would rather pay the $10 to the criminal that figured out a way to get my card and buy something on Amazon.

Kara Swisher: Oh, my God. Really?

Scott Galloway: Then tell American Express, no, it wasn't me. And then they shut off the card, and my life goes into logistical disarray every time I try to log on to Uber. I find that immediately when they cancel the card, I can no longer get Uber. Or, by the way, Wheely, which is a better ride-hailing system. I find it's a nightmare. My point is it's about incentives relative to your economic well-being. And we're nowhere near that in terms of these fines.

Kara Swisher: Yep. They need to be fined. What I do like about some of the constructs that the EU is putting in place, they're not defining numbers. They're defining percentage of profits or multiple of annual revenues. But be clear, when these guys, when we fine Meta a billion for refusing to comply with the consent decree, all the government did was validate to them that the smart thing to do was to ignore the government consent decree.

Scott Galloway: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: Well, we'll see where it goes. It's interesting because also in this country, Amy Klobuchar, a group of Democrats... Senator Kay. Kay, we love her, is urging the FTC and the Justice Department to investigate whether AI summary tools are anti-competitive, which they're all doing. I think OpenAI is about to release some more new stuff this week, too. In a letter, the senators say AI summary features hurt publishers. Platforms like Google and Meta profit from content created by others. Right now, AI summaries often keep users in the original search platform instead of directing them to the publisher's website. A publisher would have to opt out of being included in search in order to avoid having their content summarized. This is another way these companies are... It's a very good thing to be investigated. You have to be basically stolen from by them in order to be seen by others, which of course is... this should be a slam dunk for regulators and for courts, but it hasn't been. It's another version of what they're doing.

Scott Galloway: You blew my mind on this about a month ago or two months ago. You highlighted a very obvious thing that I hadn't thought about. And that is basically Google is kind of the front end directory. All right, I want to go see a dermatologist on the fourth floor of this building. I look on the directory and it says go to the fourth floor, but I go to the dermatologist. I do a... this morning I was looking at minimum wage statistics, like what industries... by the way, minimum wage on an inflation adjusted basis is down 40% since 1970. Anyway, but I go to Statista, I go to the National Bureau of Labor and Statistics, I leave Google. And this, and you pointed this out, essentially no one's ever going to leave. Because what they're saying is you don't need to go anywhere. And the analogy I've used is that Google is Walmart. We have everything, but it's a pain to sort through. And OpenAI or ChatGPT is Williams Sonoma or Sephora and says, we're not giving you every toaster. We're going to attempt to give you the best answer such that you don't go anywhere. This is literally... I don't want to call it the last nail in the coffin of traditional media, but Google does send a lot of traffic to NYT.com. Now these guys are saying, no, you're not going to need to go anywhere. And then I took that, and then this is a bit of a tangent, but I think it's an interesting one. Did you see that a former OpenAI co-founder raised a billion dollars for a new quote-unquote "safe AI"? He got a bunch of money. A billion at a $5 billion market capitalization, and they're positioning it as a safer AI. I'm like, boss, if you take a billion dollars from VCs, your priority is not the commonwealth. And from Andreessen, that was the irony, Mr. Not Safe. Give us a break. Call it what it is, something AI. But at $5 billion, I think that's one of the most overvalued companies right now.

Kara Swisher: Well, here's the thing. OpenAI is seeking a $150 billion valuation in a funding round. I heard it was $100, but even at $100? Now it's $150. Okay, even at $150?

Scott Galloway: It's undervalued. Because it's got somewhere between, depending on which source you look at, 60 to 70% share. If these... in my sense, all the stats I see on OpenAI, and they're turning into TikTok, they're starting to sandbag their numbers. All the numbers I see indicate one thing: OpenAI slash Microsoft AI, same thing, are running away with it. They are running away with it. Elon Musk is trying to cheat in Memphis by putting up things that are hurting the neighborhood, gas generators to keep up. There's an enormous cost to doing this and the energy expenses. So he's trying to keep up by doing that. It's crazy how many people are trying to raise money to compete. This is $6.5 billion they're raising at a valuation of... and it's a $70 billion increase from its valuation nine months ago. Incredible. Incredible.

Kara Swisher: Nice. And by the way, I think that's probably a good investment.

Scott Galloway: Right.

Kara Swisher: We'll see. We'll see. I do think this is the appropriate place for regulators to look at because they will dominate everything. Although, it's an expensive race, which is happening with these tech companies. They just... and they're doing all kinds of manner of things to compete with each other. So do you want to hear my story about peak Scott Galloway?

Scott Galloway: Okay, go ahead.

Kara Swisher: I'm so glad you said yes.

Scott Galloway: So in 1999, I had a shaved head. I had credentials, a good rap, and I had started a couple of e-commerce companies. I was one of the most fundable people in the world. In late 99, I went and raised $15 million from Goldman, Maveron which is Howard Schultz's company, everyone, all these masters of the universe, JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs. And I started an e-incubator called Brandfarm. And the entire company was me and an employment contract for four years—I like, I'm going to stay here at least four years—and a PowerPoint presentation. And I raised $15 million at a pre of $35 million. So at the age of 32, I was worth, with a PowerPoint presentation, $35 million pre, $50 million post, which on an inflation adjusted basis now would be, I think, about $130 or $150 million. That's how frothy things were. I could show up at the age of 33 with a PowerPoint presentation and raise $15 million from very credible investors and say, I am worth, my commitment to this company for four years is worth, with the capital you're going to put in, is worth $50 million. That was peak. That's when I thought I was going to melt into something. I remember those times, Kara. Now I'm here with you, dating Patty Stonesifer. What happened to me? What happened to me? We're in Kilts in the Highlands, by the way.

Kara Swisher: Did you hear about Prince Harry's birthday party? My birthday party sounds so much cooler than his.

Scott Galloway: Whose?

Kara Swisher: Prince Harry. Is that his name? Harry and Meghan. He's having it at the same time. I'm going to that.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, you've left me. Fucking Don Lemon texts me and says, bitch, you didn't invite me to your birthday party. I'm like, Don, I'd love to have you. And he's like, I'm coming. And then a day later, he's like, I can't, I've got a book party. I'm like, well, you just wanted to be invited.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, he did. That's it. You are off the list. Scott, let's pivot to a listener question. The question comes in via voicemail. Let's listen.

[VOICEMAIL PLAYBACK]

Kara Swisher: Oh, that's nice. I love hearing from a teacher. I'm going to start with this. It's a mixed thing, like a lot of things. I think tech companies are responsible for creating tools that parents can use and being serious about it. They have a responsibility in how they design these things. I think obviously schools are going to have to be involved. They have the kids all day. And so they have to put in systems in place with cooperation of parents to keep the phones away from kids during the day. I'm all for the idea of doing that for my kids, for sure. And then countries and legislatures all over the world have a responsibility for doing this. Australia, the prime minister announced his government would introduce legislation for age restrictions between 14 and 16. It's gotten a backlash from people, but I think it's not a bad idea. There should be lots of ideas from our regulators. But lastly, it is up to the parents, even though it's really difficult. This stuff is addictive. Parents are addicted themselves. And it's complex and the tools aren't very good, I'll tell you from using them. They're just not. They're very confusing to me, and I'm very good at this. Parents do have a responsibility to have some control over their kids and their phone usage. It's just like anything else, like television, like eating bad foods, like, please don't go out with that kid. But teachers certainly shouldn't bear the brunt of this. And I hate when parents start yelling at teachers about these cell phones. Although, the only argument I find even slightly good is depressing, which is in case of shootings, kids should have their phones. And they certainly should. So that's the only thing that sort of gives me pause about kids not having cell phones in schools. But that's heinous, unfortunately, in a heinous situation there. Scott?

Kara Swisher: There's a lot of nuance here. I would argue that in public schools or lower middle income schools, the way you can tell if a school's going to be successful or not is the level of parental involvement. And unfortunately, what happened there—no reason to have phones in schools—but parents want to be able to communicate with their kids. And there's this collective problem where people immediately go to, "Well, okay, just don't allow your kid on social media, on Snap." Well, here's the problem. Your kid ends up more depressed if he's the only one not on Snap. So unless schools ban phones collectively, unless we have age gating that's federally mandated, we're doubly fucked.

Scott Galloway: Now, I empathize. So I really empathize with her point as it comes to the relationship between parents and schools. And I found myself, when I was in the position on our school, saying to people, "Calm the fuck down. If at some point you think things are so bad, then put pressure on me as your representative to find a new headmaster. But until then, your job is to support this person who has a PhD in education and has been teaching for 40 fucking years. All right? So just back the fuck off." As opposed to these parents showing up and deciding that all of a sudden there are many experts in education because they have kids.

Anyways, as it relates to parents, generally speaking, we overprotect offline, we underprotect online. And I would think most people would look at me and think, "He probably gets it around this stuff." Oh, lucky for him and his kids. This is what has happened to my kids: they have experienced online bullying, both being bullied and being accused of bullying, hiding in the bathroom so they could be on TikTok for hours on end, severe during COVID device addiction that sent one of my kids into a really frightening tailspin. I'm the guy that's basically been railing on big tech. You would think if anyone understood the threats, it would be me. And unbeknownst to me, one of my kids several years ago developed a full-blown device addiction. They have resources. They have involved parents. Can you imagine what it's like for a single mother?

So while I understand the parent's role on this, that is basically the go-to of people who don't have children. Because when you have kids at this age and realize they're going through puberty and desperate for other people's affirmation, and no one—including Apple, including Meta, including Alphabet—has any incentive other than to get them totally fucking addicted with a casino, an arcade, a gambling, a dating, the high school cafeteria in their pocket at all times. Unless there is legislation saying no one under the age of 16 should be on social media, and unless we as parents all bind together and say schools cannot have phones in schools—maybe a flip phone so you can communicate with them, fine—none of this is going to change, because I'm telling you, their addiction is greater than our parenting skills.

Kara Swisher: Right. And we're addicted. You know, you talked to me about this.

Scott Galloway: A hundred percent.

Kara Swisher: You know, I had to say it to two different people this week. I'm like, "Put down your fucking phone, put it down." And I like my phone, by the way, but I actually am pretty good about putting it down a lot.

Scott Galloway: I feel as if I text you, I'm going to hear back from you within about three to 10 minutes.

Kara Swisher: It's on my watch because I see it on my watch.

Scott Galloway: Oh, is that what it is?

Kara Swisher: Yeah. I think text, that's different to me. That's like a phone call. So it's not the addiction nature of it. That's a communication thing. It's being responsive in a relationship. That's how I feel.

Scott Galloway: Well, I'm glad to know that you care. I like to respond to you, but I think you're 100% right.

Kara Swisher: A couple of things Scott and I believe in completely and we agree on. We don't agree on every part of this. But age limits, we think go for it, Australia. I think age limits is important. I know there's the worry about driving dangerous activity online and kids are going to smoke in the back of an alley too, but we have to have some rules. The second thing is you have to be a parent and think about it and think about your own addiction at the same time. And you've got to let these schools get these cell phones out of schools and let these teachers do what they think is best and stop second guessing them every minute of the day. I agree with you. I am so pleased in letting these teachers—Eclair is going to this public school. They're terrific and they're trained. So anyway, thank you for this incredibly thoughtful thing. And you guys, teachers are doing God's work. I know people slap them around a lot, and some teachers aren't good, but boy, what a challenge in today's society to be a teacher.

Anyway, if you've got a question of your own, if you'd like answered, send it our way. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855. All right Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

[Ad break]

Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. You know, we've got to keep this tight because I'm going to interview Hillary Clinton in a minute, just so you know.

Scott Galloway: Oh, God, here we go.

Kara Swisher: Really?

Scott Galloway: I'm just saying.

Kara Swisher: What should I ask Hillary?

Scott Galloway: I think Secretary—I've said this all the time—I think Secretary Clinton is the best president that never was. I'm just, she's literally a hero of mine. I think she's fantastic. I think on foreign policy, she's one of the brightest minds in the world right now. Anyways, wins and fails. So look, my win is Vice President Harris. I just imagined as she pulled into Pennsylvania to the debate stage. Can you imagine the pressure on her shoulders? There are millions of women who are going to become pregnant who will not have options, who will not have choices if I fuck this up. Those women are counting on me. The West is counting on me. Democrats are counting on me. Non-whites, women are all counting on me. And in about 90 minutes, I can either be their hero or fuck it up for all of them.

I don't think people appreciate the amount of pressure these people feel and register that is placed on their shoulders. Basically, if Vice President Harris had not stuck the landing here, I think she would probably be out of politics and we'd have Trump for another four years. And I think that—I literally think these people are superhuman. So, and she just absolutely rose to the occasion. And I also want to just draw a lot of attention to the team that prepped her. Her team was outstanding. You could just feel people going, "I'm in charge of the split screen. Here's what you want to look like when he says this kind of thing. Here's what you want to look like when he says this kind of thing." The split screen expertise here was fantastic. "You're going to go in a two minute response. You're going to spend exactly 72 seconds making your points and you're going to spend 18 triggering him at the end because we're going to emasculate. We're going to obviate. We're going to puncture the next 45 of his 90 when he comes back with some stupid defensive rant because he can't handle you saying that his crowds are exhausted and bored." They were outstanding.

Am I win? And again, people know this who have followed me, and I've gotten a lot of shit for it. Fine. I am not an enormous fan and have not been a Vice President Harris.

Kara Swisher: Are you now?

Scott Galloway: Oh, I'm sold. I think she deserves. I mean, she had my vote.

Kara Swisher: I'm so glad you said that, because if you'd said, "I'm waiting and seeing," because there's so many voters who are like, "I really liked it, but I need more from her." Women always have to get—she landed it again and again and again. And you're like, "I'd like some more." A man would have—this would have been locked up for a man, I'm just saying, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway: I don't know. Whenever I—I've gotten a bunch of shit without—I like, okay, I'm knocking on doors in fucking Wisconsin and I've given six figures to our campaign. What have you done? I've done a lot of stuff. No, no, I'm not saying that to you. I'm saying it to all the people who give me shit because I'm not part of the cult. Anyways, that sounded arrogant. So I'm going to go to my fail.

My fail is this jingoism, nationalism, ridiculousness that is the blocking of acquisitions by international firms, most recently highlighted by this ridiculous politicization of what was once a great company. U.S. Steel was actually the biggest company in the world at one point, employed a third of a million people, was the first company to hit a billion dollars in revenues. And as happens with almost every industry from the end of World War II to now, when Japan and Germany, who had had their infrastructure totally leveled and had the advantage of building an industry up from scratch, they are just much better at it now. The combined market share of the global steel industry is, I think, 5% Japan, 4% the US. We're not even a player in that industry anymore. And in China, it's over half. They control the majority of the world's steel.

The only way we can compete against China, the only way you're going to save much less grow those scant 20,000 jobs, 4,000 of which are in Pennsylvania. We're not talking about a big economic opportunity here. We're talking about a company that's got about a $7 or $8 billion market cap. I mean, essentially this company is worth half a percent of what an Amazon is. Anyways, you're going to discourage, you're going to put a chill on international companies that want to invest in American companies because of this bullshit. And nobody has the sack to go and tell the American public, "Okay, this is how we create more jobs. This is how we create more prosperity. We create free flows of capital and we let our allies invest in our companies when they're better at shit than we are. And they give us the right to invest in their companies when we're better at it than they are." This is going to create jobs for everyone. This just drives me nuts. It's so politically motivated. It is so, in my opinion, a waste of resources and such a fundamental lack of understanding of basic economics and trade.

Kara Swisher: That's my favorite.

Scott Galloway: All right. Thank you.

Kara Swisher: All right, I have a win and a fail. The win is, I hope the three Murdoch siblings win in this case in court. Not just because I don't like Reuben Murdoch, but I don't like Reuben Murdoch. But he's trying to change an irrevocable trust in the most cynical of ways in order to live past his death. And I'm sorry, Robert, someday you'll die and you don't get to run things. That's just the way it goes. He's 93. He's trying to amend his trust. And he's trying to do an end run around his three children and trying to put his older son in place. He signed it away years ago, and his attempts to do this is just an old man yelling, screaming at the university that he doesn't want to die. And I'm sorry, you will be dying, and so will I, and so will Scott. So this is a very consequential case, I think, and it's going on right now in Nevada. A single probate judge. They tried to keep it out of the news. In this case, I think it should have been. I'm sorry you don't get along with some of your children, but really, please stop. Like, don't end your life in this way. It's depressing to me to try to do this.

Scott Galloway: I'm not sure it's depressing. He's banging women much hotter than him. I think he's going to marry Britney Spears in his next life.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, there's a great piece in the Wall Street Journal, including a dinner with Robert De Niro, who is in a business relationship with both James and Elizabeth Murdoch around the Tribeca Film Festival. And there's a great scene of him talking where he says, "You can still love your father but you can tell him he's wrong for what he's doing to this country." De Niro called telling Elizabeth at the dinner. She was visibly shaken after the conversation. The actor later apologized. "I called Elizabeth and told her I was sorry," said De Niro. The journalist emailed, "I saw how upset she was, how badly she felt about that." I think she does love her father, but to put her through that—there's a less good relationship with James, but it's just grotesque. I'm sorry. I hope you lose, Rupert. I hope you lose.

And in my fail, it's Mark Zuckerberg. He appeared at a packed thing. He's been doing this—he's decided not to talk to journalists anymore. Talk about insulting—Kamala Harris for this—but there's a thing called the Acquired podcast, and he goes. The New York Times had a great piece about it. Great pod, by the way.

Scott Galloway: It may be, but it's very nice to the people that they cover.

Kara Swisher: It's not—he's been going to things where he can be adored. And that's fine if he wants to do that. He can go to things where he's being adored, but this is what he's doing now. He's decided to go only on podcasts where he doesn't get any pushback for anything. And I'm sorry, you may like it, but he didn't get any pushback whatsoever.

Scott Galloway: And you have been a critic of him, so I think you wouldn't even—

Kara Swisher: No, no, no. It's a great—I'm just saying it's a great podcast.

Scott Galloway: And some podcasts and some media decide that they're going to give people a chance to present themselves. Have you listened to Acquired, by the way?

Kara Swisher: I have. I'm just saying. I think it licks people up and down. That's what I think. But fine. That's great. Their job is there to celebrate business and help people understand business. It's not to hold people accountable. I guess. I suppose.

Scott Galloway: It's your fail. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

Kara Swisher: It's my fail. I think it's a fail. I don't care what they do. It's fine. That's their business. They can do that. "Look at your big brain, Mr. Zuckerberg. How did it get that big?" I get that it's a good thing to do that. But what he said, and they didn't push back on it at all, was some of the things they were asserting we were doing or were responsible for, I actually don't think we were. And he said the mistake was apologizing. Honestly, take responsibility for the things you are responsible for then and talk about them with an adult. And all reporters are not trying to get you. It's such a ridiculous victim-y personality disorder that most of these people have. And he's fine to go on these things, Scott. I'm not meaning to attack the Acquired people. But he's never going to face any real questions and scrutiny. And that seems to be the way he's going. But you can't—whatever, Mark. It's just tired of saying "I'm sorry." Then start to do something about it. That's my feeling.

Scott Galloway: You know absolutely what helped address these problems? Whiskey and haggis. We're going to Scotland.

Kara Swisher: We're going to Scotland. I'm not having haggis.

Scott Galloway: We're going to a nation whose brightest people all have one thing in common: they've left. Oh my god, if you're gonna—stop. You're absolutely gonna love—have you been insulting the country? Don't insult the country. I am Scotland's biggest fan. I was trying to buy Rangers FC. Happy birthday, Scott. You're turning 50.

Kara Swisher: Is that what we're going with?

Scott Galloway: That's right.

Kara Swisher: Okay, that's what it says on the invitation. It goes—let's go with it. Just go with it. You like that? You love that, right? You made me laugh. In Scotland though, this is a true story: if you buy a three whiskey, you can call it scotch. Younger than that, it's just called bad parenting.

Scott Galloway: Oh my God, it's the worst. Let me just say, welcome to the non-50s. We will have pictures in the event. We'll be talking about the event. Things will have happened next time we see you, audience. And by the way, thank you to every person who came up to me in Austin, in LA, in San Francisco. And just this morning, someone chased me when I was going to baggage claim and saying how much he loves us. So thank you. I've forgotten everybody's name, but you're all wonderful. And thank you for your kind thoughts on the show.

Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, and they love you, Scott. Happy birthday. Everyone said happy birthday to Scott. Everyone wish Scott a happy birthday. And when we get back, we'll have tales from the Scottish Highlands. Okay, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Tuesday with more Pivot. Please read us out.

Scott Galloway: Today's episode was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Aaliyah Jackson engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Neil Saverio. Nishat Krua is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Kara, I will see you just south of the Arctic Circle in a place that's known for being the homeland of golf, whiskey, kilts, plaid. Pringle, the great fashion brand Pringle. Very excited to see you. Safe travels.