Epstein Emails, Kennedy for Congress, and Guest Gov. JB Pritzker

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Speaker 3 (Announcer): Thank you, thank you, thank you. Good evening, Chicago. Greatest city in America. Well, welcome to the podcast. Welcome to the podcast that cuts through all the spin. We're talking about Pivot with Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway. Now these two break down the biggest stories and aren't afraid to call anyone out. Pivot is honest, informative, never boring. And that's why it's so smart that Kara and Scott have come to Chicago, because this is a city that's always been about innovation, hard work, and telling it like it is. So no better place to be in the country than here in Chicago tonight. So please join me in welcoming Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway!

Kara Swisher: You know, Washington was a little louder, so let's try that again.

[Audience cheers]

Kara Swisher: No. Oh, boo, Washington. Oh, what do you think? I'm Trump at a football game? Cut it out. Anyway, hi everyone. Live from the Chicago Theater, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway: And I'm Scott Galloway.

Kara Swisher: And before we start, I want to send a big thank you to our sponsors, Odoo and Upwork. And please give a huge round of applause to tonight's special guest, Governor J.B. Pritzker.

[Audience applauds]

Kara Swisher: I think you're popular. I'm not hearing booing. So we're going to talk about a couple of things. I'll ask you at the end about Epstein. Apparently there was some news today. Any quick thoughts, actually?

Governor J.B. Pritzker: There's nothing quick about it except Trump, Epstein. I think we know what happened there. It's really interesting, just as they got back, and they did seat the representative, which pushed it over the edge. And actually others did join in. We'll talk about it more, but I want to actually talk about Chicago and about the controversial immigration operations that have taken place in the city.

Kara Swisher: After nearly 60 days, agreed, Border Patrol official Gregory Bovino, who's trying—I guess he's trying to get cast as the guy that got his face melted in *Raiders of the Lost Ark*.

Scott Galloway: He's too short for that.

Kara Swisher: Okay. Many of his agents are reportedly planning to leave as early as this week with the Trump administration's downshift, Operation Midway Blitz. I don't know where they come up with these names. Some reports indicate that federal agents could return fourfold in the spring.

Scott Galloway: I guess they can't take the weather.

Kara Swisher: Because they're wimps, like you guys can.

Scott Galloway: Because they're snowflakes.

Kara Swisher: Exactly. So continue to navigate the push and pull on this strange federal immigration enforcement.

Governor J.B. Pritzker: Well, let me start by saying—and I'm really not pandering to this audience—the people of Chicago have truly reacted to them and protected our neighbors and our friends. People have come out. The number of whistles that have been purchased all across, and that people are using when they see unmarked vehicles and guys wearing masks. People are coming out of their homes, people who've never protested before, people who've never been engaged before. They're outraged. And they're coming out to warn their neighbors and their friends: ICE is here, be careful, protect yourself, know what your rights are. The people of Chicago have just done a terrific job. For two months now, they've been under siege by Customs and Border Patrol, by ICE, by Gregory Bovino. And this city really stepped up, activated, peacefully protested, and has pushed back. I'm really proud of everyone.

Kara Swisher: So how do you deal with this, working presumably with the mayor, but they don't call you, right? You don't know a lot.

Governor J.B. Pritzker: They don't communicate at all. It's the first time that I think in my lifetime that the federal government isn't talking to the state government about operations that it wants to do in our state. And it's very frustrating. So we read things in the news that come from—they've got this lying spokesperson at the Department of Homeland Security, Tricia McLaughlin, who literally—everything that comes out of her mouth is false. And that's how the news gets the information. Then we've got to figure out what's true and not true in reality, and then tell the news and react to it. So it's very challenging. But I will say that we've seen a lot of really terrible things on the ground. I think everybody here probably has witnessed something. We've asked people to pull out their phones, their iPhones, their Android phones, and video everything you see. And you know what that's led to? Federal cases that we have won.

[Audience applauds]

Kara Swisher: So presumably you're not in touch with Kristi Noem, correct?

Governor J.B. Pritzker: Yeah, Kristi doesn't call me. I don't know why.

Kara Swisher: Now, how does it usually work? Some people are asking, some of those sort of pandering officials want them to come in. Why do you think they targeted you? You running because you might be running for president? What do you think? Is that it?

Governor J.B. Pritzker: I don't think they targeted me. I mean, Donald Trump has had a problem with Chicago for as long as anyone has heard anything out of his mouth, really. He attacked Chicago back in 2016. He does all the time. He has this idea in his head that everything's on fire here. He said the same about Portland, I might add. I'm not sure why. And guess what? Those are the first two cities—well, beyond LA anyway—that they sent ICE and CBP into. But all I can say is that they thought they were going to be successful here. They have not been successful, again, thanks to the people of Chicago. And they're not just in Chicago. I want to give a shout out. ICE and CBP have really been all over the state, in the suburbs as well as downstate. There's a little town—I'll tell you a quick story—a little town called Staunton, Illinois, in central Illinois, where there's an undocumented man who's raised his family there. He's got a wife and kids that go to school there. He owns a restaurant there. He's been in this country for 20 plus years. And they arrived in Staunton, Illinois, in central Illinois, and they grabbed this guy and disappeared him for a whole day. His family didn't know where he went. And the town of Staunton—4,000 people live in this town—500 people showed up to protest.

Kara Swisher: So if they come back in the spring, what is your move if they come back with four times the force?

Governor J.B. Pritzker: The unfortunate thing is that because of the supremacy clause in the Constitution, federal law enforcement has the ability—as long as they're following federal law, and you ought to take note, they're not following federal law—but there's no one holding them accountable at the federal level. They are allowed, they have limited immunity as officers of the law, even if they aren't following the law. So it is very hard to push back on them. The way that we've done it here is, number one, we've made sure everybody knows what their rights are. And I'm talking about undocumented people. I bet we all know somebody—they overstayed their visa, something. They're here in this state for one reason or another, but have been here for a long time paying their taxes, following the law, raising their families. They're good neighbors and friends, they're workers. And they've been here quite a long time. Those are the people supposedly they're coming for, rather than the worst of the worst, which is what Donald Trump said that he was going after. Instead, they're stopping people who have brown skin or black skin, and just asking them for their United States citizenship papers. I don't know about any of you, but I don't carry citizenship papers, and we shouldn't have to in this country.

Scott Galloway: So I voiced this to the governor when he was on the podcast. Every year I do a bucket list with my sons. I say, "It's our weekend. We can do whatever you want." My oldest wanted to go to a PSG game in Paris, and my youngest—we live in London—said, "I really want to go to Chicago." So we came here. Steakhouse, batting cage, went to the tallest building in Chicago, which every kid has to do. Had a fantastic weekend. If you think of cities and states as a product, right? You're a relatively high tax state, not the highest. You offer services, economic opportunity. But pitch the product that is Illinois and Chicago. Imagine you're a recent college grad with a ton of options, or an immigrant that has incredible human capital and could go anywhere. What's the pitch? Sell me on Illinois as a place to choose to spend my formative or young adult years.

Governor J.B. Pritzker: I might add that I'll make the pitch, but I will tell you that this is the destination for most kids at universities in the Midwest. We have an enormous influx of people here from Michigan, from Indiana, from Missouri, and so on. People want to come to the city of Chicago. Young people are coming here. It's an exciting, vibrant city. I would say there are several things. First of all, you're a young person. We've got great jobs at tech companies. We are growing. Interesting fact I heard from Google—maybe somebody here is from Google, but there you go—I heard that within Google, if you want to transfer around to one of the other offices either because your spouse is moving or whatever, the most requested place to move to in the United States is Chicago. And they just—I don't know if any of you have seen—but Google is moving to the center of the city of Chicago. They actually bought the building from us, from the state of Illinois, and they're redoing it and it's going to be absolutely gorgeous. So it's a great vibrant city where there are a lot of really good jobs, whether it's the tech businesses or—I'll just add—it's a great sports town. And importantly, a great place to raise your family. Last thing: I've lived in lots of different places when I was younger. I went to school in North Carolina, lived in California, lived in Washington, D.C., lived just outside of Boston. So a lot of different places. And I can say this: no more decent people in a big city than in the city of Chicago.

Kara Swisher: I think Scott was looking for what's your favorite bar tip, but that's okay.

Scott Galloway: One issue about the troops. Just this week, President Trump said the "Miracle Miles Shopping Center" in Chicago—I covered retail here, by the way, once considered our nation's best—now more than 28% vacancy factor and is ready to call it quits unless something is done about murder and crime, which is prevalent throughout the city. "Call in the troops fast." This is in all caps. "Call in the troops fast before it is too late."

Governor J.B. Pritzker: First of all, it's the Magnificent Mile. Thank you. It's not a shopping center.

Kara Swisher: And you said in response, and this was interesting: "The man is demented. He really has no idea what he's doing." It's an interesting choice of words. But I would assume the city's capable of handling real estate vacancies without federal intervention.

Governor J.B. Pritzker: Look, like I said, he loves to dump on the city of Chicago. The reality is that this state is on the rise. This city is on the rise. We have a lot of really great things going for us, and it doesn't help when you have the president of the United States with some crazy notion of what the city is. He doesn't come here. I think he got such a bad rep with everybody in Chicago that if you ask most people, they'd like to tear the name Trump off that building of his.

Kara Swisher: You know what's wrong with it? The font is wrong. It's a badly sized font. It really is. It's offensive. Anyway, sorry. Yeah, there are other things that are wrong with Trump. But I will say this: he likes to dump on us, but he doesn't read. Apparently, he doesn't spend any time trying to understand anything at all. He also put a tweet out—or whatever his, I don't know, false, whatever it is, social—but he put something out where he claimed credit for the last four years of crime coming down precipitously in the city of Chicago. Our homicide rate has been cut in half. And they've been here for two months, not getting the worst of the worst off the streets. And he put out something today or yesterday claiming that any success we've had has been because of him. Again, all I can say is I wish he—well, I don't really wish he would spend more time here. But if he understood this city, like most people who come here and spend any time here, it's a great city and he should know it. I'm frustrated by everything.

Kara Swisher: You stick with "demented."

Governor J.B. Pritzker: I mean, almost everything that comes out of his mouth is false. So I'm frustrated because he's got the biggest bully pulpit in the world and he's talking crap about the city of Chicago. All I can say is—I bet a lot of people in the audience moved to the city of Chicago and will vouch for the city with everyone you know.

Kara Swisher: I'm going to ask two national questions and let you go. This country's in the middle of a massive redistricting war for control of Congress. Apparently, the Republicans might actually lose seats now through their redistricting because they're turning pink or purple, especially in Texas. But they're only up a half a seat right now and possibly down four through their efforts. But Illinois—what is going to happen here?

Governor J.B. Pritzker: Well, I've been saying we're going to take a poll tonight. Republicans are trying to get—Donald Trump is trying to get the governors and the Republican legislatures to redistrict. And Indiana, right next door to us, has been on again, off again, on again. They're trying to do it. There's been a pairing of states, by the way. Missouri is trying to do it, and therefore Maryland might do it in order to cancel out Missouri. California did it to cancel out Texas. If Indiana does it—and they're going to meet in December to decide—I think that would push Illinois toward redistricting.

Kara Swisher: Okay. So I will add we have 14 Democrats out of 17 seats. So we're doing okay. Democrats are doing okay in this state. So two questions. First is: do you think the seven Democratic senators should have voted to end the shutdown?

Governor J.B. Pritzker: There were eight, by the way. Excuse me. And I know every single one of those people. And I can tell you that that's probably the biggest mistake I've seen maybe in my political career. It was the wrong thing to do. Democrats won eight days ago everywhere in the country that there was an election. And I would have thought that would stiffen their spines in the United States Senate, not loosen them. Unfortunately, we saw people who are retiring.

Kara Swisher: It makes no sense to me. People that are retiring who have really nothing politically to lose. It's part of the scheme, presumably, right?

Governor J.B. Pritzker: It's a scheme, exactly. But I'm frustrated. One of them was our senior senator here. I was very disappointed. He's really done a lot of good things for the state and a lot of good things for the country. I was disappointed in his decision to do that. Our other senator, who I think extraordinarily highly of, also criticized the senior senator. Her name is Tammy Duckworth. She did a great job and voted against it.

Kara Swisher: So why do you think they did it? What was your theory? There were all these theories of game theory. I understand, but what's your theory?

Governor J.B. Pritzker: I think many of them had come—and you heard some of them at press conferences yesterday—I think they came to the conclusion that this has gone on for so long that it's hurting people and that they could rescue the country from this situation. But the reality is the guy who created this problem is Donald Trump. He's the guy who refused to sit down with Democrats. By the way, what was he doing? Why did he hold out and not sit down with Democrats? He wanted to shut the government down. Why? And the reason—this is the crazy thing—he wants to deny people food in order to force the country to accept less healthcare. I mean, what is the logic? Your job as president of the United States is to make people's lives better. Democrats just wanted healthcare, a restoration of affordable healthcare. That's all Democrats wanted. And Donald Trump was willing to starve people in order to hold to his position. It's arguably one of the best campaign slogans of the 21st century: the Democrats are the ones who are fighting for people to get fed and get healthcare, and it's the Republicans and Donald Trump who are willing to stand against it.

Kara Swisher: So why did the senators do it, though? Why did the Democrats?

Governor J.B. Pritzker: I think they felt like we're running up against Thanksgiving, that people aren't going to be able to get their flights to wherever it is that they want to go, that the public will hold both parties—and maybe Democrats more so for some reason—responsible. But the reality is that that's not what was happening. Republicans are in control. They've literally got every branch of government in their hands and they are the ones responsible for this. And yet these eight decided to give in. It is too bad. Democrats rely upon Democrats to do the responsible thing all the time. Guess what? The Republicans in Congress and Donald Trump are the ones who are—we've got to go do the right thing so that they can get away with murder.

Kara Swisher: So two more quick questions. One, we talked to Governor Healey in Boston about their efforts to make Massachusetts an AI hub. You're leaning into quantum computing. Talk briefly about the strategy here.

Governor J.B. Pritzker: Yeah, we got some of the best institutions in the entire country for building quantum and AI. We got Argonne National Laboratory, Fermilab, University of Chicago, University of Illinois, Northwestern, not to mention those Midwest institutions—Purdue, University of Wisconsin, Madison, et cetera. All great places. People come here to Chicago. They want to come here. So we have all the makings of it to begin with. Second, University of Chicago came to me in 2019 wanting to build out what's called the Chicago Quantum Exchange. I had just passed—or was about to pass—a major infrastructure bill for the state, one that hadn't been passed—we hadn't had anything like that really ever in our history—and asked if we would invest in making Illinois and the Chicago Quantum Exchange the hub of quantum for the country. I insisted that the University of Illinois be the partner in that endeavor. And now we're building a quantum campus that has really put us on the map. There are three states that are going after being the quantum hub of the country: Colorado, Maryland, and Illinois. And we are in the lead.

Scott Galloway: Hey, Kara, can I do a quick?

Kara Swisher: Sure.

Scott Galloway: So I want you to imagine that you're a popular governor and you decide to run for president.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, that's the question I was going to ask. Go for it.

Governor J.B. Pritzker: What am I imagining?

Scott Galloway: I just want to do a lightning round, quick responses, gut response on some policy ideas. Mandatory national service.

Governor J.B. Pritzker: We've got to train people for the jobs of the future. I believe that doing some kind of service—allowing people to go to trade school potentially in that service, right? So we're not talking necessarily about military service, but just serving the country. We've got a whole lot of infrastructure that needs to get built. I think that would be a great way for people to operate.

Scott Galloway: Lower eligibility for Medicare by three years every year in office, such that it's 41 by the time you leave. Basically a move towards nationalized or socialized medicine.

Governor J.B. Pritzker: Socialized medicine. I'm for universal healthcare. I believe everybody deserves to have a doctor.

Scott Galloway: Fair enough. Universal childcare.

Governor J.B. Pritzker: Are you kidding me? I came into office with 25 years of childcare and early childhood education.

Scott Galloway: Raise federal minimum wage from $7.25 to, say, $15 an hour.

Governor J.B. Pritzker: Are you kidding? This is my topic. No one can live on $7.25 anymore. That is the national minimum wage. If you don't live in a state like Illinois, where I helped to raise it to $15 an hour, you are living in poverty and holding down a full-time—probably two full-time jobs—making $28,000 a year if you work two full-time jobs, unable to really raise your family while you're doing it. So yeah, I'm a big believer that we've got to raise the national minimum wage. $7.25. By the way, greatest political issue ever.

Scott Galloway: To what minimum wage?

Governor J.B. Pritzker: At least $15. That's what we've done here in the state of Illinois. And by the way, hundreds of thousands of people no longer live in poverty in the state of Illinois because we raised the minimum wage.

Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott.

Scott Galloway: Last question. A massive increase in support, armaments, long-range missiles, and potentially boots on the ground to Ukraine.

Governor J.B. Pritzker: Well, I don't want to send boots on the ground. I think that we had an opportunity with Joe Biden in office. He was doing the right thing. Look, they should fight their own war, but we should support them because Russia is not our friend. Russia wants a piece of the rest of Europe and it is Ukraine that stands in the way. So we ought to be supporting the nation of Ukraine. Donald Trump walked away and has let Vladimir Putin essentially kill hundreds of thousands of people in Ukraine. And now he says, "Oh, he's such a great peacemaker." He hasn't made peace anywhere. He's basically just sided with one side, let them blow over their competition, their enemy.

Kara Swisher: Last one. Removal of Section 230 protection for algorithmically elevated content. Social media.

Governor J.B. Pritzker: This is probably the biggest danger to young people in this country. We have got to put some limits. I tried to pass a law last spring. We're going to try again this year that would ban cell phones in classrooms across the state. That's the way we can do it in the state of Illinois, but there's a whole lot the federal government ought to be doing.

Kara Swisher: All right. So how close are you to a presidential run? And tell me in numbers, like three months, six months?

Governor J.B. Pritzker: We—we—I love being governor of Illinois. I'm running for reelection, by the way. Blah, blah, blah. We've got a great bench. What else do you want me to tell you? We've got a great—Democrats have probably the greatest bench that we've had for quite some time for 2028.

Kara Swisher: I think you're running for president, so you can go now.

Governor J.B. Pritzker: No.

Kara Swisher: You looking good? I'm just saying, you're slimming down. You're looking good. Anyway, thank you, Governor Pritzker. We'll let you get back to work. Thank you, Governor.

[Audience applauds]

Kara Swisher: Let's have a round of applause. Give him a round. All right. We need to take another break. And when we come back, we'll get to some of the latest headlines. You know which one.

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Kara Swisher: Scott, we're back recording live from the Chicago Theater here in the Windy City. Let's hit a few news stories. House Republicans released over 20,000 pages of documents from the Epstein estate today. The document dump came just after the House Democrats released emails from Epstein where he claimed President Trump "spent hours at my house with a trafficking victim" and that Trump "knew about the girls at Mar-a-Lago." The email sent to Ghislaine Maxwell and author Michael Wolff between 2011 and 2019 suggest Epstein thought he had leverage over Trump. The Trump administration held a situation room meeting earlier today over the House effort to force the release of all the DOJ's Epstein files. And in Congress, of course, they passed the ability to vote on releasing the files in the House. They couldn't even—let me just say—they couldn't even convince Lauren Boebert to change her vote, which is—and let me tell you, I'm going to give her Broadway tickets for the rest of her life for sticking with it. That girl.

Scott Galloway: By the way, can you imagine a more awesome date for your 17-year-old son?

Scott Galloway: By the way, can you imagine a more awesome date for your 17-year-old son? Beetlejuice lets you fill her up a little hand action. I mean, it literally... where was she when I was in high school, right?

Kara Swisher: All right. In any case, she stuck by her guns. And they seated the Arizona representative who was the next vote, but more people are going on. But let me just be clear, everybody. Once it passes the House, which it's likely to do, it's then got to pass the Senate, and then Trump has to sign it, which he will veto. And then it's got to be veto-proof. So it's unlikely these files will come out. They will drip, drip, drip out. That is certainly true.

Scott Galloway: So how... what are you seeing at this point? There was another email that came out where he said he didn't know, he didn't get a massage. This is the line that Epstein had. Trump didn't get a massage, but he knew about the girls, which seems to be the lowest fucking bar in America: that he didn't get a massage.

Kara Swisher: And Ro Khanna predicts a full vote by early December. So what do you think is happening here? It's sort of overtaken the news cycle. I want to get your view, because I thought we were at a red line about nine red lines ago.

Scott Galloway: Yes, me too. So it feels as if absolutely nothing will turn his own against him. But the weird thing is that I generally believe the most powerful person in the world is Trump because he sits on the largest economy or the largest military. She is right up there, kind of a close number two, because all of this tariff nonsense has essentially resulted in a massive recalibration of soft power and alliances and economic alliances towards China away from the West and the US. But I generally believe the third most powerful person in the world is a dead pedophile. And that is why we're closing Congress. I believe that, and this might sound like a paranoid, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong. I think there are five or six very intelligent, most likely young people with a background in communications in a room, queering, anthropic, and chat GPT. Whenever Epstein starts to creep back into the news cycle, they say, what stunt, publicity, announcement, what will push it out of the cycle? I literally think our government right now... I think the third most powerful person in the world in terms of what we are doing and the actions that Congress is taking... I essentially think that Speaker Johnson has become basically the giant block for Epstein getting back into the news. They wouldn't have closed down Congress had it not been for fear that information about the president cohorting with a convicted pedophile. So the third most powerful man in the world right now is someone who's been dead for five years. So where does it go? I'll put it back to you. I have been so wrong on this, Kara. What do you think?

Kara Swisher: You know, I think it's no good for Trump. I mean, his numbers are dropping, obviously. And this is what I have said for so long: this is the third rail for that set, right, of the QAnon set. This is something they love more than they love Trump, that they stick to. And if you spend any time online in those places, which I suggest you don't, this is something that is... it's like it's their foundational pillar. And so that's why you see Boebert or Mace or any of these people going that way. And of course, the obvious Democratic presidential candidate, Marjorie Taylor Greene, these days, how much she's gone on this topic. She's been hard on two things: health affordability and this. Next week, she's going to announce herself a lesbian and start drinking kombucha, I think.

Scott Galloway: I don't think we want her, but...

Kara Swisher: As long as I can watch.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, okay.

Kara Swisher: You can say that. But I think it's really... that's what you see if you see someone like her or some others. What was interesting to me was Steve Bannon, who I also watch on your behalf, said to me, he said, "The president is imperfect. But divine. He's a divine providence." And I was like, which was crazy. And so we have to stick with him in this time. He used all kinds of weird military metaphors, which is interesting for Trump because obviously bone spurs. But what was interesting about "divine," that he's imperfect though. So we have to stick with him because divine providence. And to me, saying, "Okay, he might be a pedophile, but he's God's pedophile." So we have to... like, it's not a problematic argument to make for most of the American people. That's not the foot you want to lead with.

Scott Galloway: No. That's a terrible bumper sticker.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Scott Galloway: If I had to speculate, it would be that there's gonna be a soft release where they're going to release something that is highly redacted, highly massaged, that leaves in all the names of people who happen to be Democrats. There'll be a lot of names that will be redacted, and they will pretend that it's a full release. And there'll be enough that it makes them look bad, but the really crazy stuff will somehow be deleted, redacted.

Kara Swisher: There's supposed to be videos, photographs, et cetera. Like, there's an Andrew-level photograph kind of thing.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, but we have his personal attorney running the Department of Justice, so I just wouldn't take anything for granted. I would guess they're gonna try and do just enough to pretend they released the files and the documentation without actually releasing the files. I mean, I have never seen someone act so guilty.

Kara Swisher: Right, yeah.

Scott Galloway: Occasionally my dad gets into the trash and we'll get like a box trapped on her head and she goes flailing around, trying to throw the box off. I feel like she's imitating the press. Could anyone act more guilty right now? Could anyone literally act more guilty than the president is acting right now?

Kara Swisher: He's calling it a hoax, you know, again.

Scott Galloway: But think about what people have forgiven him for. And there have been a lot of very high-profile people who've gone down to Epstein's Island and have said, "This is a terrible error in judgment. I don't know what I was thinking." And they get a little bit of criticism. And then for the most part, the public has moved on. So the fact that he is so scared just sort of naturally implies that there's a lot more than a lot of other people were guilty of. He just could not... He just seems... if there was... if these files in any way were just bad, you would think he'd want to just get it out and say, "You've forgiven me for worse."

Kara Swisher: Yeah. So this just smells so bad. What's happening right now in the White House? How the fuck do I know? I like in that room. I just know... all I know is Melania's not there. That's the only... they tore down her house. So where does it go? So it probably... two things, two things, then we'll move on. If this passes and it gets to his desk and he vetoes it, that keeps it in the news, right? A veto. If he pardons Ghislaine Maxwell, who seems to have been lying based on these emails quite a bit, which of course, because she's a heinous monster who should be thrown down a hole. So he could pardon her. That's another moment of "what in the hell." And then the files could come out, right? The actual files.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, but I mean, this is something I'm more confident in. She's already been pardoned. I mean, they're just waiting. I think they're just going to wait until this calms down or until he's in his last few months in office. And the fix is already in. All of a sudden she gets transferred to, you know, lower security prison and has a nice life. There's reports now that she's like ordering around people. A prison guard, I think, went on record saying, "I'm sick of being this woman's bitch." Like, it's clear word has come down to treat her differently. She likely promised to do something in exchange for that. And the thing that I find... like, it's terrible that people this awful get set free. I get the moral argument and the moral indignance. What I think is a bigger tragedy, though, is that the infrastructure of clemency and pardon is a really wonderful thing we have in the United States. We recognize that our justice system is a crude instrument. And a lot of people, unfortunately, end up incarcerated for life or tens of years. And we find evidence that they, in fact, are innocent of their crimes or that because of some three strikes law, but because they stole an antenna from a grocery store, they're spending the rest of their life in prison. There are dozens if not hundreds of talented clemency lawyers trying to review these cases to let people out and grant pardons to people who deserve them. And this is totally perverted, bastardized, and taken all resources away from what has been a unique and, quite frankly, wonderful thing about our Justice Department, and that is the examination of clemency that leads to pardons. Instead, it's just essentially like everything else in our nation, whether it's the White House, whether it's health care, whether it's our food supply. We have now decided to monetize pardons. I mean, I got to be honest, if one of my kids was in prison, I'm being very honest here. I would start giving millions of dollars to the GOP. I would get to a dinner. I'd get next to him and I'd basically say, "10 million bucks, get my kid out." And I think there's a one in three chance I could get my son out of prison right now if I had enough money. And that perverts the whole notion of justice and also takes away from the fact that the pardon process in America has been a really worthwhile process.

Kara Swisher: Listen, this is what we're going to move on. But one of the things I think is going to happen is there's going to be, like you said, we're a visual species. There's going to be a picture. There's going to be a video. So there are videos. That's what I understand.

Scott Galloway: I'm still waiting for the pee video. That's the one I want to see.

Kara Swisher: That one, I don't know if there's a video of that. Allegedly. Okay, we're going to move on to something a lot more better looking. Very quickly, Jack Schlossberg, the 32-year-old grandson of President John F. Kennedy, is entering the race for Congress for retiring Representative Jerry Nadler's district in Manhattan. Schlossberg first gained attention during the 2024 election with his viral social media videos that mixed shirtless content and political commentary. What is happening to the Kennedys? In his campaign video, he said this country is facing a crisis at every level. Does being handsome, connected, and shirtless qualify you for Congress these days? Or do you have to be young? What do you think about him running?

Scott Galloway: There's a lot of very good-looking people running in that district, by the way.

Kara Swisher: Very handsome. Spoiler alert, yeah.

Scott Galloway: Look, in America, we've made huge progress around female participation in higher education. We're making a lot of progress in the C-suite. It's gone from 18% to 27%. The primary consideration for the only real criteria that's absolute across almost every elected representative that goes to DC is that they have a college degree. And for the last 40 years, there's been more women graduating from college. And right now it's 60-40. It's actually going to be about two to one. And despite the fact that the primary qualification to be an elected representative in this country is a college degree, and there are vastly more women now getting college degrees, we still only have 26% elected representatives. We are wildly sexist when it comes to our elected representatives. And if you reverse engineer it, I think it goes to something very instinctual. Unfortunately, we conflate voice depth of voice and height with leadership skills. So show me someone who's 5'2" and has an IQ of 140 and a high-pitched voice. Hello, school board president.

Kara Swisher: That's me. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway: Hello, school board president. Show me someone 6'2" with a good head of hair and 105 IQ. Hello, Mr. Senator. We are hugely sexist. If I had that guy's voice and Gavin Newsom's hair, I'd be fucking leading on Kyle Schieffer president right now. And the reason why... the reason why I believe that most likely it's Governor Newsom or Governor Pritzker is they give off really awesome dad energy. If you don't think we're sexist, just two terms: Secretary Clinton and Vice President Harris. How the fuck did they lose? Anyways, looks, there's just no getting around it. I'm that guy. I want a good-looking person to run for president. I think it connotes leadership. I think we are wildly looksist in this nation. So I'm less concerned with trying to progress the social virtue of our nation. And I am totally obsessed with whoever gets Democrats in the White House. I want someone tall and dreamy. I will vote for this guy. I will show up and rub La Roche-Posay off the small of his back. I am down. I think that guy's a tall drink of lemonade. We need more of that. Good for him.

Kara Swisher: By the way, could AOC be any hotter? That's why she might be president.

Scott Galloway: Jesus Christ. Scott just offered her a giant sum of money to primary Chuck Schumer.

Kara Swisher: Did she ask about me?

Scott Galloway: No, she didn't.

Kara Swisher: Did she ask about me? I texted her. She did not text back. Same thing with Emily Ratajkowski. She's playing that game, right?

Scott Galloway: No, she's not playing that game. She's completely, I would say, completely uninterested in you.

Kara Swisher: I get it.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. Surrender to the dog.

Kara Swisher: No, no. I'm not entirely sure she knows who you are.

Scott Galloway: So, all right. You know, I expose myself and you jab. You know, maybe she does now because Scott is having the number one book in America right now. Notes on Being a Man.

Kara Swisher: Kara, Kara, I don't like to give in to the trappings of your capitalist metrics.

Scott Galloway: Hello, ladies. Numero uno. Number one. Fucking Debbie Brubaker went with Bobby Barnes to the prom. Did Bobby Barnes write a New York Times number one bestseller? I don't think so. You know, this afternoon I found out about it when Mel Robbins, you know, let them, that lady, texted me. And she goes, "I'm so thankful it was Scott who knocked me out of number one." And I'm sure she was thinking, "Fucking asshole. Let him." Anyway.

Kara Swisher: Just by the way, I want to say publicly, you could not have been more supportive and generous. Thank you very much.

Scott Galloway: Thank you.

Kara Swisher: Well, you know, the better you do, the better I do. That's how it goes.

Scott Galloway: No, no, no. I'm very pleased that you're doing it. I knew it was... he didn't think it was gonna do as well as I did. Because I believe in you.

Kara Swisher: Thank you. I appreciate that. Anyway, a quick business story and then we're going to get to questions from the audience in a second. Let's do this one. Kim Kardashian's shapewear brand Skims just secured $225 million in new funding led by Goldman Sachs, bringing the company's valuation to $5 billion. That's a big jump from the $4 billion valuation just two years ago, and a six-year-old company expected to surpass $1 billion in net sales this year. The brand plans to use the cash to expand internationally with stores planned for London and Dubai by mid-2026 after opening 18 U.S. locations and partnering with Nike earlier this year. They also had a best-selling thong that had pubic hair on it that you can't get, you can't buy. I don't know if you know that. I don't know if you got that, but should they go pubic? I mean, public? Sorry. What do you think about this? Because you've covered, you've done commerce companies all over the yin-yang.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, there's quite a few companies. Well, what's unique about her company is her sister has a beauty brand that's supposedly been valued at a billion dollars. Rihanna has a beauty brand. The health and wellness space, Jessica Simpson has a company valued at a billion dollars. They generally top out at a few hundred million and kind of a billion dollars in valuation. What's unique about this is it's worth, at least in the private markets, five billion. I don't think she'll go public. Typically these companies get big enough and then they hook up with a partner as Rihanna did that provides them with global distribution, more capital.

Kara Swisher: Hayley Bieber.

Scott Galloway: Better brand management. So this is extraordinary. Now to the larger question around whether it goes public, basically the number of public companies has been cut in half over the last 40 years because of the regulatory burden, the costs, the scrutiny, every three months having to report your numbers. It becomes difficult. You become more short-term minded. And typically the only reason you went public was for a financing event or to get liquidity so you had a stock that you could make acquisitions for. And now there's so much money in the capital markets. She doesn't have to. You can get liquidity and it's just easier to run a private company. So I don't see any reason why she would go public. So where does it go? I mean, these things, commerce, as you know, goes like this.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, but what she's trying to do... I mean, Glossier, I'm thinking of some other ones that didn't...

Scott Galloway: Typically, most brands don't scale beyond a couple hundred million dollars unless they become multi-channel. She's opening, I think she's got 19 stores.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, a billion in sales.

Scott Galloway: She's opening more. So it's just what's old is new again. It's multi-channel. She's done a great job. Most of these brands have sort of an inclusivity part to the brand, and she's done that. She's a remarkable entrepreneur. I don't think there's any taking away from her. I don't have any remarkable insight here. Any thoughts there? What's going to happen to it?

Kara Swisher: No, it's a really good brand, I have to say. I had Kim Kardashian on stage many years ago.

Scott Galloway: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: And I swear to God, I wanted... because she was the top person in social on very early nascent social networks. She was absolutely number one. And she also made a mobile game that suddenly was a loser and then was a winner. And just all these... and I do, you can be offended by her. I get that completely. But one of the things that was interesting is all these entrepreneurial efforts, right, that they were doing. And they're very entrepreneurial families, some might say kind of. But in terms of wealth creation, the sweet spot for celebrities with large social volume... it's sort of discouraging, but this is the truth. If I walk into a publisher now, I get triple the advance only because my social following is five times what it was the last time I talked to them. Social is now kind of everything, whether it's trying to pay up to be in a movie, or your brand deal, they look at your social, they look at your social following. But the sweet spot for celebrity in terms of wealth creation is to find a cool little brand and say, "I'm Zendaya. I will start wearing it and I will be the public face or one of the public faces." Roger Federer is a billionaire. Roger Federer has made more money in terms of cash liquidity than any of the stars we've mentioned because it's liquid, because he attached himself early in exchange for a large equity stake. So the sweet spot for celebrities is find a great brand that has incredible product management, great distribution, and then say, "I will become your face in exchange for 2%, 3%, 5% of the company."

Scott Galloway: Yeah, Michael Jordan.

Kara Swisher: From a wealth creation standpoint, you want to attach yourself to a brand early and get equity as opposed to going through the rigmarole of actually starting a company. We will tell Kim. I think she'll do just fine without us. In any case, we need to move on. But first, Scott, I'm hungry. Are you hungry? Because we have a surprise for you. From that iconic Chicago institution, the Wiener Circle, please welcome the lead guest services representative, Poochie!

[Poochie enters]

Poochie: Hi! Hi! Hi! Hi! What the fuck is up, Mr. Scott?

Scott Galloway: Fuck you too, okay? Do you know this?

Kara Swisher: Hi.

Poochie: I brought you fucking charred olives from Chicago's own Wiener Circle.

Scott Galloway: Thank you so much.

Poochie: Thank you. Well, I'm going to introduce myself. I am Poochie. I'm the heavy bitch in charge of Wiener Circle. Okay.

Scott Galloway: Much nice to meet you.

Poochie: Yeah. Oh, you tall as shit. Okay. Yeah. Well, Kara, she brought me here.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I did.

Poochie: To give you a little shit. But I think I'm going to be on your side today. We're going to get on this bitch today. Okay. Go ahead. Go ahead. So the next time she gives you shit, you just say, "Hey, you know what, bitch? You look like Lacey off Cagney and Lacey." Okay. And then when he gives you shit, you just say, "You look like a fucking cock. You got a dickhead."

Scott Galloway: Exactly.

Poochie: Well, of course, this building, they got a fucking elevator. I mean, they got a microwave. So eat the shit, okay? And fucking enjoy it, all right?

Scott Galloway: All right. Thank you.

Poochie: Thank you. Bye.

Kara Swisher: Nice to meet you.

[Poochie exits]

Kara Swisher: We did want some... We love Poochie. I thought Scott would be a little sensitive. I was not expecting that.

Scott Galloway: I know that. They're usually much more abusive, honestly, and I was worried about you, to be honest with you, because you're such a delicate flower.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, thank you, Poochie. We'll take a quick break and be back to take some audience questions. So line up and we'll get going.

[Ad break]

Kara Swisher: Scott, we're back recording live from Chicago. We're ready to take some questions from the audience, and we love hearing from you. We love answering questions of the audience. It's been our favorite thing on this tour so far. So let's bring up the lights. I guess we can see this a little bit. Oh, who are you?

Andrew Yang: Hey, Kara. Hey, Scott. It's former presidential candidate Andrew Yang.

Scott Galloway: Yes.

Andrew Yang: Hey, Chicago. It's great to see you all. Go for it, Andrew. Scott, congratulations on the phenomenal new book. It's so needed right now. I'm going to ask what's on so many people's minds. Would you run for president? And if so, what would your platform be?

Scott Galloway: What about you, Andrew? I'm here asking the question of Scott and Kara, and yet I just asked one of you. Are you going to run again?

Andrew Yang: You know, I'll do whatever Scott tells me to do.

Scott Galloway: No, but my platform would be a chicken in every pot and a Cialis in every cupboard. I think you'd do very well, my friend. No, Kara and I... so I have the primary qualifications to run for office. I'm a narcissist and I've got a little bit of money. And what I've decided, and I think you've decided this too, is that I'm coming back. I'm moving back from London. I want to be in the fight. I don't think this is a time to leave America. I think this is a time to come back. And Kara and I are very committed to bringing attention to, as Governor Pritzker said, what we think is an outstanding bench. And I was doing an interview today and they said, "Well, what's your plan for the next several years?" And you can hold me to task here. I'm going to spend my time, treasure, and talent to try to flip Congress and put a Democrat back in the White House.

Kara Swisher: Thank you, guys. Excellent. Thank you, Andrew. Everyone, Andrew Yang.

[Audience applause]

Kara Swisher: One of the great things Andrew did was showing that we do need more choice in our electoral system. The two-party system really needs to be rethought in a lot of ways. I don't know how that's going to happen. It's happened many times in our history, but it's really important for people to be able to run and not get like moaned down by whatever the Republicans or the Democrats. Next!

Audience Member 1: Hi, Kara and Scott. My name is Rohill. I'm a student at the University of Chicago.

Kara Swisher: Cool. Love that. Oh my God. We love that school.

Audience Member 1: I had kind of a two-part question. So the first part, today the White House said they're not like October inflation and jobs data is probably never going to be released. So my question is, what do you think the Fed is going to do in December?

Scott Galloway: So someone from the University of Miami would have never asked that question. And then you're at the right school. You take this.

Kara Swisher: I will. Go ahead.

Audience Member 1: Yeah. And then the second part was just... I think it was Atlanta Fed president. He said he was going to retire. So what do you think that like... what do you think Trump's going to do with that? He'll put in someone.

Kara Swisher: Well, what do we think he's going to do? Come on. At this point, it's so funny in Washington. All these people are like, "Can you believe he did that?" I'm like, "Yes." Yes. At this point, I can believe... you know, if he like almost... if he ran naked across the White House lawn, I'd be like, "Of course he did," because he needs to get the focus off of that. I know, gross. But with the second one, what's happening with this... they have to release those numbers, actually, and they're going to be bad jobs. But there are a lot of people relying on other numbers, which are showing jobs down 50,000 jobs or something like that. And so they might just do it because he's so... he just doesn't do it, even if it's illegal, he just does it. He won't release it. And what are you going to do? That kind of thing. But I do think, you know, whether it's Goldman Sachs, there's a bunch of other consumer sentiment indicators that show pretty bad economic problems coming forward. And so into the void will come lots of information and it will be a problem for him because it won't be organized or under his control. And so I suspect they'll start doing it, but they're not going to be good numbers. And with the Fed, I don't know. I think things are going down. I think things are starting to really decline according to the statistics as I've seen. So probably they will lower interest rates.

Scott Galloway: I could give a shit. Two things. The first is, and this is serious, if you want an internship this summer, you're hired. I'm 100% serious. 100% serious. And any young man who is freakishly remarkable enough to get into the University of Chicago and has the presence you're demonstrating, if you're interested, come work at Prop 2 Media this summer. Two. True story. I'm going through the manufactured stress process of a kid applying to college, and we just did the college tour, and we did two schools here, Northwestern and the University of Chicago. And yeah, we're still in that hallucination phase that our kid is that remarkable. Anyways, University of Chicago, we're roaming around, and the high EQ, ethnically ambiguous tour guide... I'm not sure why I threw that in. Somebody made the mistake. First off, parents should never be... it should be a criminal offense for parents to ask questions during the tour.

Kara Swisher: Yes, indeed.

Scott Galloway: Three different mothers asked... I heard, "Is it not safe here?" Literally three times. Anyways, somebody made the mistake of asking the admissions rate. The admissions rate, he said, is 4% at the University of Chicago. First off, anyone that has an endowment over a billion dollars that is not growing their freshman class faster than population growth should lose their tax-free status because they're no longer a public servant. They're a hedge fund offering classes. And actually, University of Chicago is better than most. They've increased... while their endowment's gone up sevenfold, they have increased their freshman class 40%, which is better than most of these elitist, elitist rejectionist colleges. So when we heard that it was 4%, I said to my son, I like to freak him out because he's so fucking woke. And I turned to him in the middle of the tour. I'm like, "Let's go get a burger." And he said, "Can we do that?" I'm like, "Yeah." And he said, "Well, why do you want to leave?"

Scott Galloway: And I'm like, let's break up with this bitch before she breaks up with us. I personify. I love to personify every university, just for anyone that's not offended yet. We went to seven universities in nine days. My personification of Chicago was the guy in a park who's barefoot, who's feeding pigeons who supposedly won a Nobel Prize. That's Chicago. And Northwestern is the gay son we all wanted. Thank you for the question. I will see you this summer, young man.

Kara Swisher: All right. I don't want to say my kids got in, but that's okay.

Scott Galloway: Your kids got into Chicago?

Kara Swisher: One of them, yeah.

Scott Galloway: I didn't know that. Very impressive.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. So, but he went somewhere else. Go blue.

Scott Galloway: Go blue. Go blue. Come on, go. I'm sorry, go blue. He got to choose. I didn't get...

Kara Swisher: I love the University of Chicago. Go ahead.

Audience Member 1: Hi, my name is Pat and I don't have a question, I just have a big thank you, Kara, because you are so terrific. Thank you.

Kara Swisher: Gosh.

Audience Member 1: That's not Scott. You're pretty great too, but pretty great.

Scott Galloway: That's okay. I'm terrific. He's pretty gay. Yeah, good.

Audience Member 1: I like that. The reason I really want to thank you is because back in 2022, I called into your other podcast and asked about a dating quandary that I had. And you answered me with some really wonderful advice to think more widely and just live your life and see how it goes. You also invited me to be a lesbian, but I'm straight.

Kara Swisher: That's okay.

Audience Member 1: What happened? I found an amazing partner and I've been with him for three years. Yay. He's here now, he's just too shy to be here. And really, thank you so much for both of you widening my life in so many different ways with your perspectives, your brilliance, and your humor. So thank you.

Kara Swisher: We thank you. I'm always trying to do things for the heterosexuals. I'm always trying. You people need some help really badly. Anyway, sorry Scott, just one fun fact and then a lesbian joke. So this is true. Widows are happier after their husband dies and widowers are less happy. And the reason why the lesbians get divorced at a much higher rate than straight or gay couples is because they're both listening. Nothing wrong with that. I'm a psychoanalyst. Thank you and congratulations. Live, live, live. Remember, like Auntie Mame says, life is a banquet and most poor suckers are starving. Thank you.

Scott Galloway: All right, we have how many, two more questions? One more question. Here we go.

Audience Member 1: My name is Paula and I'm old enough that even with using only my initials based on gender, I wasn't eligible for any of those schools you were talking about. But I really appreciate the dynamic, real, raw conversations that you all are helping us have across the country. And the question I have is, how can we use existing real estate, privately owned real estate, to add to our housing stock so we can solve the housing issue and challenge? Because without consistent sleeping places, we're going to keep running around in circles.

Kara Swisher: That's a great question to end on, on housing. It's something actually I've done a lot of recent reporting on. There is most astonishing innovation going on in materials and creation of housing. The way we do housing right now is so artisanal, it's ridiculous. There are all these ways to build all kinds of housing that is just innovative and safe and quick, and no problems happening all over the place. The problem is governments that are NIMBY. These fucking NIMBY governments. You've got to start being able to build housing near subways, near ways people can get in and out of cities, for example. I think our homeless problem is so direct. It's because they don't have homes. They get stressed. Mental illness comes with stress. All kinds of things. You feel insecure. Again, if I were running president, it would be two things. I think minimum wage would be one of them, get everybody to a working wage, which would be $25. And the second one, get them fucking houses. That's the thing. But there are so many innovations going on in materials that it would blow your mind to see what's happening. They just aren't getting deployed. We've got to get a politician that says, as president, I will build 8 million, whatever the number is, I will build 8 million homes, work with governors to build these things and get the regulation out of the way to be able to do it. And you can do it safely. It doesn't mean not being safe. I'm not one of those people. But you have to be able to use all these incredible innovations in AI design, all kinds of things. They can do it fast and quick and build really good homes for people because I don't think people can be stable if they don't. I think our society can't be stable without homes.

Audience Member 1: I'm unclear about what's out there in existing real estate that is so privatized. It is. We can't turn it into housing market. The hedge funds are buying all the homes. You know that. 38% of sales are now from hedge funds. How can we address that at the same time build, repurpose, or reuse or something?

Kara Swisher: So it shouldn't be drill, baby, drill. It should be build, baby, build. And there's a lot we could do, whether it's tax subsidies. I don't believe in rent control, that just takes housing prices up and reduces stock.

Scott Galloway: You should weaponize the private sector with tax credits. You have to get rid of... and we as Americans, we're all guilty of this, have embraced a rejectionist, exclusionary culture. Once we have college degrees, we applaud the dean for rejecting 70, 80, 90% of applicants because we're all under the delusion that our kid is in the top 1%. And I can prove to every one of you, 99% of our children are not in the top 1%. What happens at NYU when the dean announces we rejected 90% of our applicants? We applaud. In my view, that's tantamount to the head of a homeless shelter bragging that he or she turned away 90% of the people who showed up last night. We're public servants, not fucking Hermes bags. The second thing is, a lot of us are guilty of this, the moment we have a home, we become very concerned with traffic. We start showing up to the local review board and want to sequester new housing permits because all that does is take the value of our own home down. So what do we need to do? We need to stop this bullshit, rejectionary, exclusionary culture that takes our asset prices up and start unleashing massive housing. My favorite housing program, there are a ton of really interesting ones. I love this one: seniors and young men sign up. Seniors have homes that are too big, they need help, and young men are moving in with them. I love that program.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, the young people, that is an astonishing program. You should look into those because those are fascinating. It helps everybody because we also have a crisis with the elderly too in terms of care and the expensiveness of it. There are all kinds of programs. But again, what we want to leave you with is there's lots of innovation and it's easy to doom scroll all over the place. We, well, he does. But you do a little bit, don't you think?

Scott Galloway: I do. I take it to my phone.

Kara Swisher: What's really important is you all. Someone's like, "How are we going to survive this?" And my kids say it to me too. And I said, "Well, get the fuck up and start walking," because you can see it start to change. You saw in the last election. Look, if they were great Republicans, we'd support them too. Right now it's really ugly. We try really hard to try to find comedy between everyone. Obviously we don't agree with everything, but we see great hope for this country. And we think one of the reasons we're on this tour is we love talking to people. So we hope we leave you with a positive feeling. We really appreciate it. We love Chicago. You guys have been a great crowd. You can catch selected shows from this tour on YouTube and in your podcast feeds. That's all we've got time for today. Scott, read us out.

Scott Galloway: Today's show is produced by Lara Naiman, Zoey Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kate Gallagher. I'm your new Todd entry this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Misaveri, and Dan Chillon. Amazing ground support provided by Trish Hargitow, Kelly Schwanter, and Kelly Lynch. Special thanks to MSG Entertainment and Chicago Theatre. A big shout out to the Vox Experiential team, Tara Riley, Courtney Given, Abby Aronofsky, and Caitlin Burl on the Shark Croas Vox Media Executive Producer Podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

Kara Swisher: Thank you, Chicago.

Scott Galloway: Thank you.

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