House Arrest, Meta Fined Over Fine Print, and More...with Audie Cornish

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Kara Swisher: Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. Scott Galloway is obviously still recovering from New Year's, and he'll be back next week. But for today, I'm thrilled to have Audie Cornish, the host of CNN's The Assignment, as my co-host. Welcome, Audie.

Audie Cornish: Hey, Kara. Thanks for having me.

Kara Swisher: Thank you for coming. I really appreciate it. I'm in awe of your talent and your various things that you've done over the many years.

Audie Cornish: Well, I'm a big fan of you because of your interview style specifically. You're like one of those people.

Kara Swisher: Well, we both do interviews, right?

Audie Cornish: Yeah, but you've got a very distinctive style. Not all interviewers have their own style.

Kara Swisher: That's true. Obnoxious. What is it? Like casually cruel. Someone told me I was casually cruel. That's what I was called.

Audie Cornish: Oh, I don't think that at all. I think I've talked to you about this in the past. You have a way of dealing with men the way they deal with women, and it is disarming to them. And then the back and forth, it's like a totally different level. I mean, just trust me. I try and interrupt people sometimes, and the way I have to do it is completely different. And I sit there and listen to you, and I'm like, oh, my, I want to do it that way.

Kara Swisher: Oh, it's called ball busting. Ball busting is how it's used. It is. So let me ask you, what is your style? What is your style with this new interview show? What are you hoping for with The Assignment?

Audie Cornish: The slow boil. No, I mean, I think that I like... Yeah, exactly. Well, one thing is I'm starting from a place of empathy and not in the corny sense of that word. Just the idea of I realize in a way I'm kind of retraining people how to listen. And if you listen to the first episode, we talked to these school board members. They're conservative activists. And they aren't used to anyone listening. Which is their thing, which is their grievance, really. But also we're not used to listening and to sitting through it and to having follow-up questions that aren't, "This is the next question that has to be asked." But you said something, and I want to know what you mean by that. Explain it more. My goal, in a way, is I don't want people to... What's the phrase? You want people to dislike someone for their best take, not despise them for their worst take.

Kara Swisher: Right, right, right. I personally believe in a conversation, in terms of what we do, the idea is for people to give their best arguments. Yes, yes, I agree. I agree with that. Not a bunch of shouting in their worst argument. Who gains from that? So anyway, that's how I think of it.

Audie Cornish: Is that different at a cable network versus an NPR? Because at NPR, you have that time to roll things out.

Kara Swisher: Exactly. You do, and we tape way more live interviews or a totally different ballgame, and you've probably experienced that as well.

Audie Cornish: Well, one thing that happens, I think, in a breaking news environment versus an analysis environment or an environment like you're in, there's a heavy emphasis on the turn of the screw. The question of the day is like, "Will so and so get the vote?" instead of being like, "Why does it matter if they get that vote? What is the greater context? What does it matter to my life if they get that vote?" So I think that's it. We've not trained ourselves as cable news viewers to want to sit through that level of inquiry.

Kara Swisher: No, because it's snackable. That's a nice way of saying it. I think it's reductive. I find it super reductive. I have a hard time going on it.

Audie Cornish: Oh, you do? So tell me about this.

Kara Swisher: I do lately because it's like give your idea in 1.2 seconds and you're like, "Well, it's complicated." When they go, "Elon Musk, good or bad?" And you're like, "Um..." That's not how it works. That's not how people work.

Audie Cornish: Yeah, which is interesting. Are you enjoying it? What's your favorite show so far?

Kara Swisher: I really love talking to the OnlyFans sex workers because I think that's really at the intersection of a lot of things. The way modern feminism has turned prostitution into labor and moved it under the umbrella of labor in a way that a long-running movement has, but really getting it there because of the way the internet brought so many mainstream people onto it. And hearing them talk about ways they were pushed out of the economy and into this work. One was a nurse. People do this stuff because it's safe in your house, to take off your clothes safe in your house, theoretically. And interestingly, we did one on journalism, and we had Maggie Haberman from the New York Times. We had Margaret Sullivan, who's a longtime public editor, and Jelani Cobb at Columbia. And everyone, it's a classic episode of The Assignment in that everyone hated it just based on its name and the list of the guests.

Audie Cornish: Oh, yeah. They're very conscious. Well, especially Maggie has been in the center of controversy. But that's kind of the point of the show. It's like if you want to take the time to listen a little more, it's worth the listen.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, people do not listen. You're absolutely correct. I think that's true. I believe in people when I started this show. And then let's get to the news in a second. But when I started the show, they were like, "You have to make it shorter." And I said, "I trust people can listen." Honestly, substance is what people are dying for. What they're not dying for is these reductive bullshit takes and they're tired of it. You're making them stupider. And trust is built. You've built trust over the years. And so people, when they turn on your podcast, we're here to spend time with you and experience your point of view and way of the world.

Audie Cornish: No, it is. I mean, I'm not listening to any random, "Oh, tech sounds good." Like, I want to hear your take. And I think I've learned to embrace that because I think before I thought that that was a kind of branding and self-aggrandizing. I was like, "Oh, no one wants to spend time with me." They'd be like, "You should have a newsletter." And I would be like, "What? Who cares? Who cares what I think?"

Kara Swisher: No, no. We care what you think, Audie. Anyway, I tuned out on the news for a few weeks because I had heart surgery. And so I just turned everything off, which was fantastic.

Audie Cornish: Well, congratulations, because you're standing, heart beating, looking good.

Kara Swisher: Oh, it was a minor surgery. It was fascinating because many years ago, I talked about this already, I had what would have been open heart surgery, but now it went through my leg. I was out of the building that afternoon. It was crazy.

Audie Cornish: Incredible.

Kara Swisher: And I now have a cyborg heart, which is great, which I'm very excited about. So I really am paying attention because the news is back again, really, in a lot of ways. And the Republicans today, we're going to talk about the Republicans can't elect a leader. We'll talk about the mess in Congress, what it means for legislation. Also, the European Union makes Meta feel the brunt of their tech regulations. And we'll hear from a listener about media bias, which I think is great for you to be here to talk about this. But first, another one of Sam Bankman-Fried's former allies is cooperating with investigators. Something Scott and I said would happen. Obviously, everyone's dropping a dime on SBF. The company's ex-top lawyer providing details about what was done with customer funds, basically stolen, it sounds like. Bankman-Fried is set to go on trial in October and could face up to 115 years if convicted after pleading not guilty to eight counts of criminal charges. He's currently out on $250 million bail, which is a lot. His co-founder, Gary Wang, and Alameda Research CEO Carolyn Ellison are both cooperating with prosecutors. Any thoughts on this? Like what's happening here? It seems like he's going to jail. It seems like he's on a quicker ride than Elizabeth Holmes, but that's where he's headed.

Audie Cornish: Well, it doesn't help that he gave a round of interviews on the way there, right? Effectively, no one asked you to say anything.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Audie Cornish: But it probably speaks to the Icarus nature of this particular story and the hubris involved. If you actually start to believe your own press and if you actually start to believe that you are philosophically doing some good, even as you're very clearly doing something that is not good, that's going to come back and bite you in this phase of things. My question going ahead is how many more people will be charged? I just don't believe that one person did all this. A lot of people signed checks. A lot of people moved the period on zeros, and a lot of people operated in his fear. And I'm curious to hear how it all worked, so to speak.

Kara Swisher: Right. Well, they're all dime dropping. That's what they're doing. Carolyn Ellison is right up in the middle of this, and I assume they're giving her a certain thing. Same thing with Gary Wang.

Audie Cornish: Yeah, but I want the full picture, especially because I think it'll help us understand better what to look for in the future with these exchanges. There's no way this digital currency can mainstream the way its proponents want if it still feels like a financial instrument and a toy.

Kara Swisher: I just interviewed Tony Fadell, who was actually the creator of the iPod, and he's been doing a lot of crypto wallets and stuff. And he still feels it's still a viable industry in certain ways as a way to do identity and move anything from contracts to money to whatever. In this case, I think this is just a simple case of a liar. And I think this idea that he thinks he was going to do the world good, I think he very cynically went around and gave money to politicians and media and did this whole altruistic whatever. Charity, whatever. I never could understand it. The bros will come at me, but I definitely felt like a scam. It felt like the plot of Glass Onion.

Audie Cornish: Yeah, the Glass Onion. Did you see that? The Glass Onion billionaire.

Kara Swisher: But we're seeing more of this archetype in pop culture, which I only mentioned because the movies are art. That's where we start to paint a picture about how we really feel about certain figures in our culture. And the billionaire is taking a hit right now, not just as the nasty guy or something like that, but as a BS artist. And I think that that is a very interesting development culturally, and it does have effects for something like crypto. Because now it's got to overcome this sort of public distrust. And it needs the public because if it wants to be decentralized, we all have to sign on to it.

Kara Swisher: Right, 100%. We'll see what happens here. I think he's going to jail. I don't see how he doesn't go to jail.

Audie Cornish: Yeah, for sure. Why not? He's messed up over and over. It's the same story. And it's also very straightforward. And I think it's a good lesson for the crypto world, because if you want to play the big boy finance game, then you also have to play by some rules, too. Because all this is done before. There were runs on banks. We had the Great Depression. It's not as though we don't know how currency can work and how it can fail. And you don't defy the laws of gravity.

Kara Swisher: What was interesting, he was trying for legislation. He was saying, "Oh, please legislate." He was one of the few, which is why politicians were attracted to him.

Audie Cornish: Was he, or was he using it as an excuse to make donations?

Kara Swisher: Yeah, yes, that's correct. They're so easy. They're so absolutely easy to deal with, these regulators. Speaking of Glass Onion billionaire, Ed Norton played that part in a very funny movie. Janelle Monae was fantastic. Everyone was great in that movie, actually, I might say. Which has, or have you noticed there's a bunch of people who hate that movie?

Audie Cornish: Why?

Kara Swisher: Yes, I know. It's Ben Shapiro, so that means it's fantastic. So I don't know what to say.

Audie Cornish: Yeah, it was great. I did watch it because I'm open-minded. I'm like, okay, didn't like it. It was great. I thought it was great. I don't know if you did or not. I thought it was very funny.

Kara Swisher: You know, it's funny. I didn't care for the first one because I didn't get it. I was like, Daniel Craig doing this accent. Like, what is this? And then the second one, for some reason, appealed to me more, maybe because it was much more you're in on the joke of like, okay, this is just Clue, the movie, and the journey is the destination and just have fun. And it's a well-executed thing for what it is. And I think that's good. After a decade of puzzle box, anti-hero pop culture entertainments, like Westworld or Breaking Bad or whatever.

Audie Cornish: Yeah. Oh, I can't watch that. I cannot watch that.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I think everyone's just like, yeah, I just want to see something that has a beginning, middle and end. And it's just amusing.

Audie Cornish: Yeah, it was a romp. It was a very funny romp.

Kara Swisher: You know, speaking of the Glass Onion billionaire, he was actually based, Ed Norton based it on Elon Musk, obviously. And he's off to a rough start this year. He's become the first person ever to lose $200 billion from his net worth, which is a lot of money. Fidelity's value of a stake in Twitter is down by 56%. I think that's being kind also. That's after recent drops in Tesla stock, including an 11% drop on Tuesday after deliveries fell short. That's been down even higher. The Tesla stock dropped 65% in total in 2022 due to production disruptions, concerns around demand, and, of course, Elon Musk's Twitter distraction. What do you think about that? I don't think we've ever talked about it. What is your take on what's going to happen next?

Audie Cornish: No, no, we haven't. I mean, it's funny watching mythologies because I do feel like the tech industry is one of just true self-mythologizing. It's just key to the whole enterprise. Watching those break down in real time. And these are a lot of self-owns, as the young say. Nothing that has happened to Elon Musk in the last six months had to happen to Elon Musk.

Kara Swisher: No, nothing. Nothing. No, he did it himself. Yeah, every single part of it. But even, let's face it, Mark Zuckerberg and Meta, that is nothing. None of that had to happen at the scale it did, at the speed it did, in the way it did. And the faltering of it is just, you know, it happens. It's a cell phone.

Audie Cornish: Yeah. Someone asked me just recently why I had been a fan of Elon Musk. I was very impressed with Tesla, what he was doing at Tesla and what he was making. And it's obviously several years ahead of other car makers, so everybody's catching up. And the SpaceX stuff is impressive. And someone's like, "What's your name?" I'm like, he changed rather quickly. And he sort of showed some side of himself that's really unattractive.

Kara Swisher: Now, we had covered the issues, the allegations of racism at the factories.

Audie Cornish: Yeah, don't you think this was always there? It's there. Yes, exactly.

Kara Swisher: You know, he and I got into a big beef about COVID. When I was in, he tried to walk out on an interview when I said he was wrong about COVID because he was sort of being very cavalier and saying it was going to go away. And he was forcing people into work and driving regulators crazy around that. And yes, it's sort of one of the people I interviewed said he was 90% fine and 10% kind of crazy like this. And now that crazy part is taking over.

Audie Cornish: I suspect that ratio was a little... that was a generous ratio.

Kara Swisher: Well, this was someone who worked with him. I think it's different when you run a private company and you are self-contained and no one really knows what you're doing. I mean, let's be honest. Like, I know everyone has their mythologies about how Teslas were made and the production and it was bad at first and then it was good, instead of really talking about what it means to get to that point. And it's interesting that Twitter is the thing that has undermined him because it speaks to the oddball nature of this media slash public infrastructure slash private forum company. You can't make Twitter in private because you, me, we're the creators. We're making the car. So you can't tell us to sleep in the office. You can't tell us to do any of this stuff. And as it turned out, he couldn't even tell the employees really to do that. So he weirdly met his match with media.

Audie Cornish: Are you using it a lot less? Are you a heavy user of Twitter?

Kara Swisher: I was a heavy user when I very first started covering Congress because it was a little quieter and smaller then. And it was almost like a second newsroom. We can talk about that later because I think that is a huge issue in terms of media bias. Later on, I realized like, oh, this is a toxic nightmare, but this is where you can spread word about your stories. This is where you can be in a dialogue about the news of the day and that there's value in that. And I especially love the way a whole raft of commentators who could never come up writing a column at a newspaper or whatever were suddenly there. They were writers. We can hear from a Jelani Cobb or a Zerlina Maxwell or a Wes Lowry or a Roxane Gay who never, you know, where would she be without this weird platform that just sort of rocketed her to the public consciousness? And even the way it opened up the dialogue for black and brown communities. I mean, I have thoughts about the obligatory black Twitter weekend clickbait story that most news organizations default to now. But what it means is instead of some old editor being like, "You should go to a barber shop. What do the blacks think? Tick, tick, tick. Let's call this church."

Kara Swisher: Did you ever have an editor that said that to you?

Audie Cornish: Yeah, you have to. Oh, the Obama campaign. That is how we were all treated as marginalized groups. It was like, "You need to do a black voter story. You're going to go to a church. You're going to go to a barbershop. And if you get spicy, you're going to go to a hair salon." And your editor with a straight face would assign you something like this. Oh, no. And now it could be like, or you could kind of hear this dialogue happening very publicly, hear the factions. Anyway, I'm ranting, but I think it had its use. It was a private-public partnership. And once the private part, as we saw with Elon, took over, it's done. That equilibrium was really thrown off.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I feel that. I wasn't on it for weeks. I really, I mean, except for a very small way. It's crazy. And I'm fine. I'm perfectly fine. I feel like I have a lot more time for sure. But you're right. It was the newsroom. We'll get to that in a second because I've actually used it more for this Kevin McCarthy thing. We'll see what happens to it. Lastly, a lot of tech layoffs. Amazon will cut over 18,000 jobs. It hired like crazy. They had previously announced 10,000 job cuts. It's the largest tech layoff. I'm obsessed with this story. Not just them, but yes, you said layoffs in general.

Audie Cornish: Right. Salesforce is cutting 10% of its staff, which is around 8,000 people, cutting back on office space. They just had this huge tower in San Francisco they built right before this all happened. A listener wrote us this morning. She said her wife was laid off at Salesforce this week and took a day of emailing up the managerial chain to get clearance about what was going on. She went on to say, people speak highly of Mark Benioff when it comes to being a good and empathetic leader. I can attest to that as our family has gained a lot from Salesforce fertility and same-sex parent benefits. But the current change in C-level leadership and poorly executed layoff is Salesforce facing something more than just an economic downturn. It seems like there's something going on with leadership.

Kara Swisher: There is. By the way, Salesforce is a sponsor, but it's really... we've talked about this quite a bit, like with Bret Taylor leaving and others leaving. There's something going on there. And all these companies are really seeing economic contractions affect them, which never did with tech companies. They were able to hire like crazy. Amazon hired 500,000 people during the pandemic. One year, I think, 2021. Why are you fascinated with it?

Audie Cornish: Because during the pandemic, the quarantines led to a bunch of consumer behavior that people mistook for long-term behavior. And so, and obviously I've experienced this, right, entering the streaming world. It was like never-ending growth. There's only more subscribers. There's only more people who are going to want to go into the Metamall. There's only more people who are going to want to order on Amazon.

Kara Swisher: TM? Is that your name? Metamall?

Audie Cornish: Exactly. It was just like, I don't know, people actually sat in boardrooms and were like, "This is how we're going to live now," which I understand. There were moments of the pandemic where I was like, "I guess I'm going to be in my house with a baby. Like, we're never going to leave the house." And then when we didn't leave the house, I mean, when once the quarantines ended, I've been a little surprised at how these companies have been shocked, shocked that things have changed for them. And I've been a little disappointed that the media has conflated these really high flyers and their, frankly, readjustment to reality with the economy as a whole. Because people do have jobs. People's wages are better. And I'm just not sure that a company that hired as much as Amazon did having to contract is a sign that the whole economy is bad. It's just a sign that I left my house and I buy things at the store.

Kara Swisher: Although I do think people did start to do practices that they didn't do. I definitely use delivery more than I used to. But clearly not as much, right?

Audie Cornish: No, not as much.

Kara Swisher: No, right. But I definitely do less office stuff. I think it accelerated trends that were happening anyway. And now it's starting to shake out.

Audie Cornish: It accelerated trends, but it also minted billionaires. And it pushed some companies into places that were not sustainable.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. I mean, that's my... I'm not some socialist. Their profits were so big, yeah. But it's just like, guys...

Audie Cornish: No, no, I'm just saying, like, I'm not some progressive socialist here. It's just like, no. Like, you're not... there's only so many people in the country.

Kara Swisher: Right, right. Well, we'll see where it goes. They're not used to this. The numbers are crazy. The stocks are off by massive amounts, anywhere from Microsoft, I think, is in the 20s to 80% for Snapchat. But the stock market is not the economy. And I think I spend a lot of times when I talk to people, just as a journalist, I have to say, like, let's be clear. Obviously, they are linked, but they are not one and the same.

Audie Cornish: That's correct. It's very easy for the news cycle about... it's very easy for the business news cycle to tell regular Americans that things are going sideways. And it's not... it's maybe wobbly, but it's not fully sideways.

Kara Swisher: Right, exactly. Speaking of, let's get to our first big story. Is the House of Representatives the government? That's the question. And it doesn't seem to be...

Audie Cornish: The House doesn't exist.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, one third of our constitutional democracy is off point. Taking a break. Like a used Toyota Corolla, the U.S. House of Representatives still lacks a speaker. As we record this, the House has voted six times. They may have voted a seventh while we're sitting here.

Audie Cornish: No, they meet at noon. No, they've got more to go.

Kara Swisher: Kevin McCarthy's vote is shrinking. He started with 203 votes from fellow Republicans and dropped to 201. Even if they elect a speaker after we finish this episode, the chaos still matters. So let's talk about it. You covered Congress. Just tell us what is going on here. This seems chaotic. And all it is, is people showing pizzas being brought in. And I'm tired of the pizza discussion. They kept going, "Look, there's pizza." I was like, "Can you give us some news?" That's really a sign that all the journalists are hungry. So it's like a camera guy being like, "When am I cut?" I don't care. So what is going on here? Give us an overview of what you, this sort of chaos caucus, The Freedom Caucus and what's going on. And McCarthy keeps giving in to them.

Audie Cornish: So in a nutshell, just in terms of the McCarthy story itself, essentially after the House majority went to Republicans, they were victorious. But of course, it was only by a handful of votes. And that means that all kinds of things were going to be difficult or you'd have to get Democrats to sign on, et cetera. So that conversation was already brewing. But in the background and in the meantime, you had not all of it, but some core members of what is known as the House Freedom Caucus who were starting to say, "This is our chance because the margin is so narrow. We will have leverage to ask for things." And the reason why I'm saying as a small group is because it's five or six people who are like "Never Kevins," they call themselves. And then there's like one or two who kind of yesterday were like, "I'm tired. I'd like to be paid."

Kara Swisher: Yeah. They don't get paid next week.

Audie Cornish: But go ahead.

Kara Swisher: Exactly. No one does, by the way. Like, I think the whole Hill.

Audie Cornish: Yes. Never mind that there aren't security briefings going on right now. Never mind that anyone who tells you they're a congressman right now is technically wrong because they haven't been sworn in. They are, like I said, a massive self-own. And I think Kevin McCarthy, who I've talked about this a lot, has watched every major Republican leader of the last 20 years go down in flames. So Gingrich, Boehner, Paul Ryan. I'm going to count Eric Cantor as majority leader.

Kara Swisher: Sure.

Audie Cornish: Every one of these people were felled by the early iterations of what we now call Trumpism, but obviously came to the public's consciousness with the Tea Party. And he thought he would be the guy to wrangle them, so to speak. Like he would genuflect to Trump enough. He would build those relationships enough and he would make them happy. So even though he was a hardcore establishment guy, by that I mean one of the group of young guns, they called themselves, of which Paul Ryan, et cetera, were part of it. They were going to be a new generation of hotshot Republicans. And now they're down to this one pea shooter. They're like, "I don't want this one guy."

Kara Swisher: What's interesting is I'm watching a little bit of Twitter and other places. They're calling him like a rhino, although Fox News is backing him, which is interesting, and yelling at the little group of chaos. I've been joking that Fox News is now the Kevin McCarthy of right wing media. So what happens here? I mean, the dynamics of this small group, it seems to me like I know Stephanie Ruhle interviewed Lauren Boebert. If you haven't seen it, it's hysterical.

Audie Cornish: It was amazing. It was amazing. Facial expressions. Watched it live.

Kara Swisher: [Imitating] "Today you're backing Byron Donalds for speaker. He's got 20 votes. You think that guy's getting to 218 tomorrow?" "I know that there are many of our colleagues who are cheering us on silently." "Silently won't help, ma'am. 218 votes. We're going to get there." Yeah, it was like, I took the call and sent them to her in real time. I'm like, "What the fuck?" Derp. All the different expressions. Derg. Lerg. And so she was nonsensical. Like, I don't understand what she was saying in half the time. But what I did come away with was like they don't care. They don't care that they're making trouble and they can continue to make trouble even though there's more than two... he doesn't have enough votes, but he has a lot of votes, right? But this small group of people can keep him out of office, which presents all kinds of opportunities in lots of ways.

Audie Cornish: Does he have any other choice but to continue to give in? Because he'll anger the rest of the caucus, right?

Kara Swisher: Right. Because they're mad too, but they're going to keep voting for him no matter what. I mean, I think the history you have to remember for all these people is, and as a country, we went through this before, 2015, kind of 2014, the government shutdowns, these weird precipice votes where all of these people who claim to be fiscal hawks would say, "We can't spend this amount of money. We can't raise the debt ceiling so the government can spend more. We can't, we can't, we can't." And it was like a personality, it was a whole identity. Then Trump comes along and they're like, "Well, actually, maybe fine." And Mark Meadows, who had been in the House Freedom Caucus, becomes a key part of the Trump orbit, etc. Mick Mulvaney. A lot of these people who were part of this founding, Ron DeSantis, came out of the House Freedom Caucus. It is a political identity. And I think they're fighting for their survival a little bit after Trump's faltering with the midterms. And by that, I mean the Trump brand is dinged through a variety of reasons, right?

Kara Swisher: Yeah. But now the rubber has met the road through the ballot. Voting. Right. Through voting. And there are a couple more Trump-backed candidates that would have been in the House, right? Like if the red wave materialized, that weren't. And so I think now these people are in the House. They're realizing like, oh, well, wait a second. The tide could be turning a little bit. This is our last chance to get what we want. We got to solidify our power where we can. So they're arguing ostensibly for these rules changes and they want to have more participation and blah, blah, blah. But also note they want specific committee assignments, right, assignments that will be helpful and powerful for them. They also have asked the leadership to not jump in on future election and future races that are open, safe Republican seats. So translation, the next time a Republican seat is open and safe, don't get in there because we know that if one of our guys get in there, there's a good chance a Trumpist will win that primary vote and that that person is the person who will advance. Whereas if you jump in and bring in your moderate or bring in your whatever, your establishment and talk about election deniers, our numbers will be smaller. So there is a way that there's an existential conversation that is buried underneath pizza boxes.

Audie Cornish: That's a really smart analysis. So what will happen, though? What will happen is Kevin McCarthy wants to wait them out. I mean, all the clowns, essentially, Matt Gaetz. And then you have Marjorie Taylor Greene against them, which is sort of like, what is happening with this? I don't know. I mean, Kevin McCarthy is going to probably snap into a Slim Jim, right, as we learned from Nancy Pelosi, get his energy up, and he's going to wait them out. Because if there's one thing we have learned from this group over the last couple of years, they have nothing to lose, and they will wait. Every day that it goes longer is another cable news hit for them. It's another day they can tell a constituent that they stuck it to Kevin and Mitch and the swamp. And that is their gain. That is their reward. So they're not being – Yeah, they're not like, but what about governing? Like, they're not in it for that. I think there's a way people kind of forget that.

Kara Swisher: Because there's also this fantasy that Hakeem Jeffries will become speaker, like that six Republicans peel off.

Audie Cornish: Not a fantasy. Not a fantasy. I mean, right now, Google in Pennsylvania, this something similar happened, and there's now a, like, unity speaker. So it's possible for people to function like normal human political beings and find a solution. It won't happen here. But just know that an actual model exists right now in the world. I think Kevin is going to absolutely wait it out. He going to he working the phones There one or two people he going to finally peel off But the problem is what is it going to take to get there What do you have to give away to get there And the other thing about the rules people should understand is by the time you give away so much power what is the speakership anymore Is it just symbolic? Because now you've set yourself up where any two or four or one person can raise their hand and challenge your leadership. This puts us in a British situation, you know, where it's no confidence votes and it's this and it's that. And it's like nobody is actually running the thing. Right. They're always watching their back.

Kara Swisher: Yes. And people need to remember Nancy Pelosi did this. Small majority, challenging group. And look at what she was able to pass.

Audie Cornish: Yeah. I mean, it is like. So what's the difference? What is it?

Kara Swisher: I love her. I got to tell you, every time she does a little hit and she's like, I don't know. I did it in stilettos. I don't know what you're telling you, Kevin. And backwards, right?

Audie Cornish: Yeah, right. He did it. And on top of that, Hakeem Jeffries is getting like three days of sustained commercial time where people just get up and say how great he is.

Kara Swisher: Yes, exactly. He's getting hilarious. He said some good quotes himself.

Audie Cornish: Yeah, Democrats are excited. So what happens? Where does it end? Because they can't, they don't want to govern too, right? They're also like, we need to actually get in here and do stuff.

Kara Swisher: Well, yes.

Audie Cornish: Does that mean chaos for the next two years? Or does it mean an opportunity for Democrats to get together with Republicans?

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I think arguably not that much would have happened no matter what. Like even if he just took over as speaker and they just went on their merry way, it would just be a lot of investigations into Hunter Biden's laptop and things like that. I don't think you would see a ton of legislation. Right, ESG investing. Yes, and I mean a good way of thinking about this is where was Mitch McConnell? Well, Mitch McConnell the last couple of days has like been in photo ops with Biden, you know, because he got spending in Kentucky. So he's perfectly capable of getting things done that meet his needs and through the Senate without the House at all. They effectively took themselves out of the process. I think going forward, there is a chance that another candidate will come forward or that there's another option like a Steve Scalise. People have talked a lot about him. And I think the only way you'll know that's happening is if someone gets up and does it kind of without Kevin McCarthy's blessing. Because now a couple votes in, there are votes that are going to be just about showing everyone in the room where the support is.

Audie Cornish: Right, right, right. But when is the 200 going to say we're going to someone else? That's who has to do it, right? Not the 20. Or the 20 has got to convince the 200 to come along.

Kara Swisher: No, no, it could. I mean, 200 aren't going to bolt. They just don't like these folks enough, right? Like, Matt Gaetz is not, like, a popular figure in the House. There is so much of this that's personality-driven.

Audie Cornish: Right, right. Lauren Boebert, not super popular.

Kara Swisher: Right. And unfortunately for Kevin McCarthy, not super popular. Like, they're just people who do not like him. And so I think it does matter what these handful of people choose because they can also make trouble going down the road. And I think the real question now that Democrats have seen this, how are they going to play the next year or two, right? Like do they feel like, oh, we got to just stay in line no matter what because that's where our leverage is. Are there going to be some cinema types, you know, just joking. But like, are there going to be some figures who say, oh, well, I have more leverage to pass things now because the Republicans are so desperate that there's just five or six votes they need to get something done. I actually think this affects their calculus in a way that they didn't expect. They knew it would be a mess. They didn't know it would be a hot mess. So give me a prediction and then we're going to get to our next story about how long it's going to take.

Audie Cornish: There are no predictions. This is not this. No, it's too many. It's like trying to make a prediction about a room full of cats. Like, which one will come out on top? Like, I don't know, but there's going to be a lot of scratches. Like, I don't know. Is that an old congressional thing to say? I just make it up. I just say in politics we say, no, it's not. But I do, I think people need to understand this is unusual, period. This does not happen, period. But they're so used to hearing us say that coming out of the Trump era that it's hard to grok just how weird. This should have been the easiest vote of the entire year.

Kara Swisher: Right. Period.

Audie Cornish: Right. Yeah. And it's not.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. I think they're slowly. I think eventually they'll make progress. I mean, they have to, right? They've been in these talks discussing things. They've also already shown implications. You know, and this is one of those stories, no matter what reporters tell you, who are like, my sources say this is the kind of story where everything is playing out kind of in front of the cameras.

Audie Cornish: Right. Because everyone who's complaining is just going out and being like, I'm pissed because of this. I'm pissed because of that. And he needs to give me this and that.

Kara Swisher: Right. So it's not quiet negotiation. It's not really. I mean, is stuff happening behind closed doors? Sure. But will we see the result of that fairly quickly?

Audie Cornish: Yes. Yeah, I would. I would agree with you. I would absolutely agree with you.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, let's go on a quick break. We'll see what happens. Good luck, Lauren Boebert. We'll see what goes on with you. When we come back, we'll be talking about how European Union is coming for Meta and take some listener mail.

[Ad break]

Audie Cornish: Audie, we're back with our second big story. The European Union says Meta must pay for privacy violations. Not a surprise. Regulators say that Facebook and Instagram violated the EU's landmark tech regulation, the GDPR. The EU ruled the social network's terms of service forced users to agree to data collection for personalized ads. Now regulators have fined the social networking giant more than $400 million. Meta says it will strongly disagree with them and will appeal. Again, this is Europe now regulating U.S. companies, which the U.S. government, because it's not functioning, has not been able to do for a long, long time. And wouldn't. They're not at anywhere near where the EU regulatory infrastructure is when it comes to tech, period.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. When is our Congress going to get in here in a way the GDPR? Now, they may appeal, and the court isn't telling them how to fix it, but it is taking the lead on privacy. The two things that are taking the lead are Europe and Apple.

Audie Cornish: Yeah. I mean, I would love your opinion on this. I think there's a very, very deep connection between the Republican and even just American capitalist sense of, like, protect innovation at all costs. versus the European sensibility about these things. I think they can't get around the European Union.

Kara Swisher: They don't care.

Audie Cornish: Oh, no, I mean in terms of us ever regulating.

Kara Swisher: No, I don't. I mean, look, Amy Klobuchar's bills went nowhere, right? They're sort of sitting there. They were sitting there and didn't pass in this last session. Or talk to a kid about TikTok being regulated.

Audie Cornish: Right. They're just like, what? You know, to the barricades.

Kara Swisher: That might come sooner because of the Committee on Foreign Relations in the U.S. That may have some taste to it. And because Republicans are very deeply invested in this battle with China. Like it is directly tied into some philosophical underpinnings going on right now. Not so much them being like privacy is important.

Audie Cornish: Agreed. And I think there's no regulation. The U.S. is nowhere on this regulation. And also, by the way, they're also helping Donald Trump could get back his Facebook and Instagram accounts. He was banned indefinitely after January 6th, which I never liked indefinite. What is it? Either ban him or don't.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, there was some sort of cowardice to that. Meta shortened the ban to two years after the oversight board. They tried to send it over to the oversight board. They're like, it's your decision. It's going to be made soon by Nick Clegg, who is not Mark Zuckerberg. Twitter's bringing back political advertising on the platform. Political ads have been banned there since 2019. So they're not going to be regulated in any way, and they're going back to their practices, I think.

Audie Cornish: Yeah, but it's also hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube or whatever, right? Like they've already entered the political sphere in this way. They've already, they've literally become a place for organizing rebellion movements, right? Like January 6th. That's like organized on social media.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, and I think their attempt to sort of say like, well, we're not going to get into the moderating anymore. They've just struggled. They all struggle with this. You know this. They want to be the size of a country, but they don't want to create infrastructure or roads or safety. Like, they don't want to do any of that. They just want the money part.

Audie Cornish: Yeah, without any government regulation, they're not going to do anything.

Kara Swisher: I mean, great power, great responsibility, all of that. They don't care. They don't want it. This week, anti-vaxxers on Twitter tried to link the collapse of NFL player Damar Hamlin to COVID vaccine, and no one did anything about it, which was ridiculous. Which was he had a he was hit in the heart. He got a whatever it's called.

Audie Cornish: But that's where I actually feel optimism, because while the places where that conspiracy boil is always simmering, I feel like the rest of us and like kind of more mainstream America and your regular person's Facebook was not so quick to jump on that. And I feel like the last couple of years we've all been so burned by social media, either by its bosses, right, like faltering on the philosophy and the image and or watching what happened with the elections, watching what's happened in some of our own families where you like try and have a conversation with someone who has educated themselves in online conspiracy patois. Like we're all different. And I think we're more reluctant now to let these things come to a boil.

Kara Swisher: That's what I hope.

Audie Cornish: That's interesting. And that's what I thought coming out of the election, you know, just with the election deniers getting the door slammed in their face.

Kara Swisher: Right. It was people being like, I'm tired. Like, I am tired of this.

Audie Cornish: I would agree. And I'm done.

Kara Swisher: I would agree. Although I do think these privacy regulations are critically important that we have not.

Audie Cornish: They are. Antitrust and privacy regulations seem to me to be the lowest bar our government can put in in terms of how these companies operate.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, and I don't want to rely on Apple. I don't want to rely on—

Audie Cornish: But you do rely on Apple. Apple is who you're relying on to do this.

Kara Swisher: Exactly. Exactly. Any over-under on Donald Trump getting back Instagram? I think he's getting them back. They're going to get them back. I sort of have bigger questions about what his quote-unquote campaign is doing.

Audie Cornish: Right. Right? You can tell us. Where is he? What is he talking about?

Kara Swisher: He's a Mar-a-Lago, apparently, according to Olivia Nuzzi. Of course. He's hanging out with Mar-a-Lago having Diet Cokes. He's on truth. So like he's not even acting like a candidate. He's not even acting like his version of acting like a candidate. Maybe it's all the legal stuff, blah, blah, blah. But he's different. And I can't even – the social media question is important because it was so key to who – to the building of him as a candidate. And with that infrastructure all messy and crumbly, he's struggling.

Audie Cornish: Yeah. You know, it really does prove how reliant he was on it. I think putting him off for those two years has rendered him less powerful on those platforms.

Kara Swisher: Yes. And that's what's so wild about the people who are like, you got to bring him back and who have made it this free speech cause and everything. It means they looked in the face of January 6th and they said, look, you got to break some eggs, you know, for free speech. Like, you just gotta, and it's like, okay, I don't know how to argue with that.

Audie Cornish: Yeah, it's true.

Kara Swisher: Well, I think they're probably going to let him on. I think, I don't know what other decision they can make. If they don't, if Elon Musk had not bought Twitter, they would have not let him on because why cause any, just, they just said, we made a decision that we threw him off. That's what it is. In this case, calling it indefinite was a problem. Like, they should have either thrown him off or not thrown him off or given him two years and then said, you're back on in two years. And if you violate again, we'll kick you off for good. That's something very simple. It's like dealing with kids. It's like dealing like, you know, maybe I'll.

Audie Cornish: Can I ask you what this decision or others in recent months make you think about the direction for Zuckerberg and him specifically?

Kara Swisher: He's not interested at all.

Audie Cornish: Yeah. Like, where is he? Is he just like exiting?

Kara Swisher: He's interested in the metaverse. He's not interested in running the real business anymore.

Audie Cornish: So you're saying he's not of this earth anymore?

Kara Swisher: Yes, he's not. He's in the metaverse. Yeah. He's tired of it. It's exhausting and he's not very good at it. And so.

Audie Cornish: Yeah. But does that mean like Trump's in the metaverse? You know what I mean? Like where does he.

Kara Swisher: He's trying to make the metaverse happen. We'll see. He's giving. He's handed a major decision over to someone else. So that's it. You know, he's he doesn't want to deal with the with the fallout of it. So he doesn't want his name next to it.

Audie Cornish: Yeah. Sheryl Sandberg's left the building, actually left the building. And so they're all like, I've had enough of this. And it is exhausting on some level unless you establish rules from the beginning like they did at Reddit. actually. If you want to talk to a smart person, talk to Steve Huffman at Reddit. They changed many years ago because they knew. And he just said, I'm throwing off malevolent players. That's it. Like he didn't sit and hamlet the whole thing. He just said, this is our rules. If you like it, if you like it, great. If you don't, you're okay. And there, here's what we're doing. I don't know. Let's pivot to a listener question though. You've got, you've got, I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman. You've got mail. The questions comes from Janine DeNoves on Twitter. As a journalist, how does Audie Cornish make sense of the both-side-ism that's taken over so much of the press? What do we do the public who depend on the free press do? What do you think about that?

Kara Swisher: That's an interesting question. Well, both-side-ism is a very specific critique, I think, that does come from a place of its own political bias. But it is the idea that you present two or three sides of things as co-equals, even if one of them may be immoral or doesn't actually stand up to scrutiny and that you put them on an equal plane. And I do think that the Trump era really brought that into deep relief because it was very hard to be like, oh, well, we're not going to have the cabinet member of such and such on. And even, you know, or we're going to like if the most one of the highest advisors gets on and uses the phrase alternative facts, it's like do you ask an intern to come on? Like who is the communication voice coming out of the seat of power? I think it was very hard to figure out how to do that. And the public didn't love it, you know, especially on the left.

Audie Cornish: Right. So what do you do? I mean I think that there has been a sincere recalibration You know I do think that it is much more common for people to just immediately say oh this person isn serious or this is not a serious conversation or this is a bad faith argument. Or I do think that that is far more aggressive than it used to be. And that that makes a big difference. I mean, these are active questions. Like, I don't have an answer for her that's going to satisfy.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, it's interesting. When you think about that, when I think about who I want to interview, someone was, you know, Stephanie had Lauren Boebert and she did a long like, this is why I had her because she's in the middle of this mess, not on the other stuff. I don't know how you can separate them, but I did see her do that. It was really, she did a good job of it for having, you know, Lauren Boebert.

Audie Cornish: Yeah, and listen, I do a podcast that is absolutely vulnerable to the criticism of its platforming this or that, right? Like you're platforming these conservative activists without the other side. You're platforming sex workers without the other side. Like, you know, that was a conscious decision I made to be like, okay, well, what does it look like to create something where you hear an argument out all the way? How much work can I do as an interviewer to make the conversation feel fleshed out and balanced? you know, the show may not be the same format forever, but I think it's part of my own personal reckoning with some of the ideas that people are talking about when they talk about bias.

Kara Swisher: I have two things. I say what I think, like, so it's not hidden. So it's not as if I'm like trying to be, I'm fair. I'm like, I don't like you. You're nonsensical. And I'll also do what I damn well please. You know what I mean? That's how I say to people when they do the platforming thing at me, you shouldn't plan. I'm like, don't do it on your show. Fine. Whatever. Do you have a show? No, you don't. I do. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I think I'm sort of like, I'll do a damn well, please. And I'll do a good job. And if you don't like it, don't listen to it. And I think that's what I tend to do. And I do, I do think like, would I have Marjorie Taylor Greene on? Like, I interviewed Piers Morgan recently, and we both were like, she lies so much. How do you, how do you, you spend a lot of time batting packed lies at the same time I heard her speak, We would have talked to her. She's clearly intelligent. She's clearly like a sharp political player, even though she lies incessantly. But go ahead. Sorry.

Audie Cornish: Well, that's probably key to being a sharp political player at this point.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, yeah, yes. No, that's a very good question. And I think each journalist has to kind of make that decision for themselves. Like, am I best positioned to service this conversation in a way that's going to enlighten the audience? And that is actually going to elicit not just information, but understanding. And there's some interviews you would do that I wouldn't do. There's some interviews I probably would do that you might be like, that's not for me. And I think that's important to understand, too. Sometimes we look at our heroes as journalists, air quotes, and then we're like, why are they doing that?

Audie Cornish: Yeah, I get a lot of that. Is there anyone who you wouldn't do or you wouldn't interview? Can you think of someone?

Kara Swisher: You know, I'm not a fan of the talking to a white supremacist. You know, that's something that I want in a way. I kind of want white interviewers to pick up that mantle and do it in a way that their predecessors completely failed or, frankly, co-opted. But I don't want to sit down and talk with someone who doesn't believe me or my children should live freely.

Audie Cornish: Yeah. Why? That conversation is a literal non-starter. But for a white interviewer, I think, yes, I want to hear you ask bluntly, why should we live with this privilege and not acknowledge it? Like, what should the, you know what I mean? Like, what does it mean to talk about reparations without spiraling into some nonsense conversation? Like, there are real things that I think, especially white Americans post the awokening, are capable of dialoguing about that they, like, couldn't, you know, before.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. And like, they should go do that. You know what I mean? And then there are some things that I feel like I can handle more sensitively than I hear some interviewers doing.

Audie Cornish: Yeah. And that, I don't know. I mean.

Kara Swisher: Is there anything you'd like to do a lot more of where you may not agree with people?

Audie Cornish: Oh, yeah, for sure. That's actually, we're having a pitch meeting in two days. And that's for the staff. I've said, listen, you guys are giving me a lot of things you kind of agree with. and I need you to go down the rabbit hole in some places and with some people that you don't necessarily understand. And again, I said to them, I gave the same example, I don't need a Klan member. You know what I mean? Like I don't need to do any of that. But like there are some worlds we need to tap into and better understand and there are ways that we can bring context to the conversation. Like that's our job.

Kara Swisher: That's a really good way of putting it. Here's another email from someone who doesn't share our social media. I'll read it. Love the show, but please recognize that people who've never had any presence on social media do exist. And for the most part, we need happy, socially well-adjusted lives. I've never had Twitter, Facebook, Twitter, or an Instagram account. I'm an ER doctor and researcher. I love pop culture and fashion. My husband and I throw a lot of dinner parties. We have a fabulous group of friends and a large loving family. All of this to say is one can strive to live the best life and contribute meaningfully to society without social media. My dream is to impart this philosophy to my young children. I know they will only be happier people if they will live as social media free. Thanks for all your great work, Royzanne McElroy. Royzanne, come over for dinner at my house.

Audie Cornish: I know. Well adjusted. I love it. That's a life. P.S. Rest assured, I engage in many other forms of procrastination.

Kara Swisher: We do recognize that, Royzanne, and we wish we were you. We wish we were you, correct? I don't think for journalists we need to pretend that social media is a thing we need to abandon completely.

Audie Cornish: Yeah. At all. Like, I think it's been beneficial to journalism to have this ruckus back and forth. It's beneficial to see Ben Shapiro's dumb tweets. It's beneficial to know what's being said in the various echo chambers. I think that there is value, though, to the broader public not living in social media in the ways that they do.

Kara Swisher: Which they don't. Most people are like her.

Audie Cornish: No, absolutely, absolutely. But I mean, for the people who are those like weird power users, you know how you go on Facebook and there's someone who's posting 10 times a day and you're like, how? I wish somehow I could reframe for people that you're doing free data entry for billionaires.

Kara Swisher: Right. And you are the product.

Audie Cornish: Yeah. And it's not necessarily doing all the things you think it's doing. And the reason why I don't want to abandon it completely is because so many marginalized communities have benefited from it. You know, people like who are disabled, like people like that there is. You know, it's the I kind of joke that Arab Spring argument, like every time we talk about how terrible Twitter is, someone's like, oh, yeah, well, Arab Spring. And you just kind of be like, well, first of all, that didn't work out so great. So we need to be clear that, like, there's difficult things still happening in those countries.

Kara Swisher: Right.

Audie Cornish: Yeah. But it's just the idea that, like, yes, Black Lives Matter, Me Too, that political movements are taking place there and that that's important and significant. But there's a lot of other stuff that I'm not sure is so additive to one's life. And it's totally okay to embrace that.

Kara Swisher: Yes, I agree. We think that's great. I do think it is a good news distribution. I think for this thing in Congress, it's much easier to get the news from a Twitter or a Facebook than it is. Also for her, her kids may feel differently in their kids. This movement of quiet quitting and I don't like hustle culture and I don't do this and I want to be in a union. some of that is a rejection of the attention economy and being online all the time as a way of life um and that is like gen z's all over that you know they're just like i gotta tell you my kids don't use social media at all at all not even they took them all off their thing it's really interesting they get it the older sons my sons don't i think they get it maybe girl maybe teen girls are on it a little bit more some of them yeah but not interested in tiktok now they like They watch YouTube a little bit and Reddit, and that's it. It's interesting. And the three-year-old has yet to get a phone, so we'll wait for that one.

Audie Cornish: Anyway. I have a three-year-old, too. Why didn't you do a segment of this show? It's like three-year-olds. What the hell? Frozen.

Kara Swisher: Audie, they like Frozen. They continue to like Frozen.

Audie Cornish: That is really—

Kara Swisher: They're obsessed.

Audie Cornish: And let me tell you, because I'm a streaming household—

Kara Swisher: How old are your kids?

Audie Cornish: A three and five.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Audie Cornish: They don't really watch TV. They don't get to watch TV. But the profound cultural reach of Disney is so deep and so insidious that just by attending school, they now know the entire soundtrack of Frozen and Encanto.

Kara Swisher: Encanto is there, but Frozen.

Audie Cornish: Have you heard your three-year-old sing Surface Pressure?

Kara Swisher: I have. I have many times. Hundreds of times. That's literally a song for, like, firstborn immigrant daughters. Like, I heard that song and I, like, shed a tear. I was like, I know the truth.

Audie Cornish: And Disney is in my house. Marvel's in my house. And even though they have not seen a single one of these films, period.

Kara Swisher: Yep.

Audie Cornish: Well, I applaud you, but I unfortunately have given in to the Frozen, whatever it is.

Kara Swisher: No, they watch stuff, but just like they haven't seen that stuff, but they know it all. It's very weird. They know it all. And also Taylor Swift.

Audie Cornish: That's what I would say. Yep. And they know how to use my device, right? Like they can get onto your phone. It's the Frozen Taylor Swift pincher. My daughter was singing Antihero the other day. She's three years old.

Kara Swisher: You know you're old when your kid shows you how to use your device? Because I didn't think I was very old. And then they were like, no, swipe this way. And I was like, oh, it's happened. It just happened. That's it. Gray hairs come out now.

Audie Cornish: Anyway, these are great questions. We like them. We really enjoyed them. If you've got a question of your own and you like answered, send it our way. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT.

Kara Swisher: All right, Audie, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

[Ad Break]

Kara Swisher: Okay, Audie, let's hear your wins and fails. I'm going to give this sole segment to you.

Audie Cornish: Obviously, number one fails still Kevin McCarthy. I can't help it. It's just the biggest first New Year fail. That was, you know, for no reason.

Kara Swisher: You know, wins. I'm actually not sure about wins. Who's winning right now? I mean, Joe Biden looks pretty comfortable. He's like a president who's passed a lot of legislation. He will have earned the legacy of being the vice president to the first black American and having a black American vice president of his own. He's just going to be in the history books in a bunch of different ways. And I think that people underestimated him at their own peril, especially Republicans. And he's now going to the border for the next day or two, which is exactly what Republicans said they wanted. But they can't capitalize on it because every single camera will be on Kevin McCarthy's pizza boxes.

Audie Cornish: Yep.

Kara Swisher: So not to be a political hack, but this one is just too big not to comment on in terms of wins and fails.

Audie Cornish: I think you're right. I think you're right. I think Biden is always underestimated. Kicking off the year.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Audie Cornish: I think him being in a limo with McConnell and DeWine and very successful. And everyone's like, well, that's what we want.

Kara Swisher: The aviators were back. It was the full Biden. Yeah. He felt good. He's looking good. He's feeling good. It's interesting. You know, I have a theory and I'd like to put it out on you. Years ago, Nancy Pelosi invited me to talk about tech in front of the Democratic caucus, right? They were out at some hotel in Virginia and they get together and they, whatever, they all do their thing.

Audie Cornish: Yeah, they retreat.

Kara Swisher: They retreat, right. So I went out and I talked to them and it was a good speech and there was all these moderates and then there were the left wings. It was really interesting. I took my son at the time, he was maybe 12 or 13 at the time, and he came up to me and he goes, "Mom, these people can't agree on anything." And I was like, "Really?" He goes, "They just argue with each other all the time." He was wandering around and listening to them, right? And I thought, you know what? Alex, this is actually a really good thing. They know how to disagree together. And he said it to Pelosi. And he goes, "I can't believe you keep these people together." And she goes, "But I do." And it was really, it was like a loud family. She's Italian, obviously, the loud Italian family. Italian and from Baltimore. I always want people to remember that, that she's actually a Baltimore politician. She's a Baltimore, right. And I was like, they know how to disagree with each other. And they're fine with it. It's a mess, but it's a... And I think one of the things that Republicans did, having covered it very briefly when I was at the South section of Washington Post, is they threw the best parties because they all fell into line. Like the Democratic parties were a mess, right? They were always like all over the place. And I thought, if you're people that fall into line all the time, once you don't know how to disagree together, it's a real problem, right? Like, you don't know how to get along when you're in disagreement. And that reminds me of that, that Democrats do know how to disagree together.

Audie Cornish: What I like about this argument that you're making is, for everyone listening, you're going to hear the exact thing that Kara is saying, only Republicans will say it in the middle of this debacle, right? Because they're trying to use that argument to put some sort of sheen on this show, right?

Kara Swisher: No, they're disagreeing badly. They're disagreeing badly because they're not good at it.

Audie Cornish: Oh, democracy is messy. This is just what happens. And it's like, no, no, this isn't actually how it works when you have a messy family disagreement. This isn't actually like recalcitrance is not the most significant or important part. So if I were you and you're at home watching and you're trying to figure out what's going on, imagine the relative at your Thanksgiving dinner who just won't stop, right? And who just really at a certain point you're like, "Oh, okay, can we eat?" That's what's happening here. And it's not helpful. It's not healthy debate, which is always good.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, Audie, thank you so much. That's the show. You can listen to more from Audie on The Assignment every Thursday wherever you get your podcasts. We'll be back on Tuesday for more. I really appreciate it for you to come here. And I urge everyone to listen to your show. And I would love to have you back anytime. I loved it. I'm a huge fan of yours.

Audie Cornish: Thank you. Scott Galloway is a brother in CNN Plus, RIP. He's an alum. He didn't have a good time at CNN. I heard.

Kara Swisher: I heard. Yeah, that's all right. Whatever, whatever. Poor Scott. He never gets a TV show. So anyway, with Scott gone, I'm going to read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Neyman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Enderdot engineered this episode. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. And again, Audie, thank you so much.

Audie Cornish: Thank you. Thank you.