Murdoch Succession Drama, Trump's Voting Promises, and Guest Anne Applebaum

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Kara Swisher: Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway: And I'm Scott Galloway. How you doing, Scott? You're going on a dude call tonight, aren't you?

Scott Galloway: I am. I've been invited to the, what's it called? The white guy? White guys for Harris? Is that?

Kara Swisher: Yeah. White guys for Harris.

Scott Galloway: So it's finally that white men are getting a little bit of recognition and having some influence in this world, Kara.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. And you didn't ask me where I am. I'm in Aspen. Where are you?

Scott Galloway: Oh, oh, what are you doing there?

Kara Swisher: What I was doing. I'm here for a few weeks in the summer. I love it here. And I'm mostly going to Sant Ambroeus and walking around and saying hi to people and then going to Cash Cash. I'm just living the douche lifestyle, capital, all caps.

Scott Galloway: Right. So overpriced tiny sandwiches. You're enjoying them.

Kara Swisher: They're great. Oh, they're the best. Yeah, my mom's. You know, it's Lucky's favorite place in New York, Sant Ambroeus.

Scott Galloway: Sant Ambroeus? Yeah. The one in the West Village or the one on Lafayette?

Kara Swisher: No, the one uptown. It started uptown, I think. I like Lucky. That makes sense. I totally can see her there. Maybe I'll get her some in New York this week. I'm going to take Louie back to NYU. He got an apartment.

Scott Galloway: Oh, nice.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. Yeah, so maybe I'll pick up some. It reminds me to get some because I'm going to pick Lucky. Lucky's spending the week with me in D.C.

Scott Galloway: That should be interesting.

Kara Swisher: Oh, I'm sorry? I mean that great. That great. That great. So Aspen is pretty. So your expensive tuna sandwiches. Nice. Good. Good. How's the weather? No wildfires, I hope.

Scott Galloway: It's spectacular here. And what's interesting is, you know, I'm even coming here. We used to come here in the winter to ski, and we came here one summer about eight years ago. Now we just come in the summers. And what's interesting is the last two summers, it's been noticeably less crowded because of all this pent-up demand. So this is a demographic that goes to Europe a lot. And once COVID sort of burned out or started to subside, I don't know if it's a hate crime to say COVID is over, you have a ton of these people are now in Europe. So it actually feels quite quiet.

Kara Swisher: Oh, nice. Well, I'll be there next week. No, I'm kidding. Little privilege economic rundown. Bringing Lucky. And you two can sit at Sant Ambroeus and like kibitz. What do you think?

Scott Galloway: Oh, we do that. You'd be good. That would give you a good reality show, the two of you. Lucky and Scott at Sant Ambroeus. Jesus, grumpier and grumpier.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I know. It would be really good. I hate him, too.

Scott Galloway: Oh, God, I hate him more.

Kara Swisher: No, I agree, Lucky. She is a big disappointment as a daughter. Lucky, I agree. Yeah, I agree. Wait, just give me a minute. So this dude thing you're doing, do you know Lucky is predicting Kamala's going to win? Kamalot? It's the cover of New York Magazine. Kamala? Kamalot is the cover. She's predicting Kamala's going to win?

Scott Galloway: Yeah, she did. I almost fell out of my chair. $200 million in a week. The enthusiasm is, I mean, granted, some of it will wane. You know, they're just getting their attack engine going. She'll come under a bunch of warranted scrutiny that every candidate gets. But the honeymoon period is like, this is a month-long honeymoon right now.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, it's going on. And it is everything, every... A lot of sex happening.

Scott Galloway: Oh, my God. And, I mean, Kara, this whatever you call it, white dude thing? And not weird sex like J.D. Vance, but go ahead, dolphins and couches. With furniture? I'm not sure I even understand what he's being accused of there. But anyways, I was asked to come on CNN tonight and talk about how weird the campaign is or the Trump campaign is and talk about the white dude thing. But they had, I mean, they barely sent out an email and 80,000 of us raised our hands and said, yeah, we're in. And that says something, right?

Kara Swisher: Yeah. Yeah. Although that's less than the black men and black women, I think. They're doing groups of Zoom calls, which I think is fascinating. I think it's really, really fascinating. Don't you think? I'm of two minds about that. I like that we're saying, don't be ridiculous. There are a lot of white men who you immediately create a stereotype of that want a great economy, that want progressive policies, that want bodily autonomy for women, that want a wonderful world for their daughters, that believe in liberal politics. So I like that, that that's a chance for us to say, don't be stupid. There's a bunch of us that are hand in hand with these ideals and are fighting for them. But at the same time, it feels as if the world is becoming so much more, it's just becoming one giant identity politics exercise. You know, just everybody identifies now based on their sexual orientation, their background, their gender. And I think some of it is unhealthy.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I think some of this is fun, though. They're doing it in a fun way.

Kara Swisher: Oh, I agree. I like this. The Asian ladies, the Black ladies. I think it's kind of fun, like teams, and then they're all going to get together. In this way, it feels light. I agree with you that it's too much identification, but I think this is more in joy than it is in anger or grievance.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, this is tongue-in-cheek and funny. I'm thinking, I'm getting involved in another one, Jews for Harris. I'm worried that a lot of Jews, including myself, are so kind of rattled by October 7th and we're concerned about some of what we perceive as anti-Israel comments from the far left that it's pivoted a lot of people to the right. And a lot of Jews have become one-issue voters. And what I'm going to try and do, and I want to do something similar to what these guys have done, I've been inspired, is a Jews for Harris. Because I don't think, I think if you really put on your critical thinking hat, I think the best thing we could hope for in terms of not only the end to the war, but a sustainable peace would be to have the continuation of the Biden-Harris administration. I don't think they get nearly as much credit as they should for their steadfast support of Israel and immediately deploying aircraft carrier forces over there. And also post, when the war does come to an end.

Kara Swisher: Well, make your argument. Make your argument.

Scott Galloway: Well, I'm making it now. And then post the end of the war, you're going to have to have a fairly complex multilateral peace force there. And who is most likely to build an enduring peace? You'll probably have to have back channel negotiations with Iran. Is that Anthony Blinken or someone who's likely to be a future resident of a federal or state prison somewhere, which is a one in three chance of any cabinet appointee of the Trump administration? And I'm really disappointed that a lot of people aren't slowing down. They're more fond of the macho, they should finish the job that you hear from the Trump administration. It's like, well okay, what the fuck does that mean? Just this sort of what I call blanket chest pounding macho. If you really look at what's happened in terms of on the ground, who's been effective, not only supportive, but effective around Israel, I would argue that the Biden-Harris administration has been outstanding for Israel. And I don't think they get the credit they deserve. Anyways, after the white guys, I'm going to go to more identity politics and potentially participate or do something similar for Jews.

Kara Swisher: So ultra, ultra, ultra white guy podcast. Well, here's the deal. So, yeah, it'll be interesting. I think it has to be a nuanced conversation. Unfortunately, it's not most of the time. You know, it was interesting, though. You're talking about the identity politics. There was a really interesting story, which you've talked about, is the difference between young men and young women going totally different ways. Going Trump. It's crazy. I think that's interesting to me, but we'll see what happens. I think it's really exciting. And again, I urge people to look at the cover of New York Magazine. She's sitting on a coconut, this whole thing. All the online stuff is cool. I don't think online is everything, if that makes sense. I don't think it's like snakes on a plane, you don't know. But I think this is real with these numbers and the money and the donors.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I think it's really interesting. You know, I'm in California right now. Do you want to know why?

Kara Swisher: Oh, you are? I'm sorry, I didn't ask where you are. It's San Francisco?

Scott Galloway: I am. Yeah, I'm south of San Francisco. Guess one of the reasons I'm here. Jeffrey Swisher is launching a show on the new CNN+. I don't know. Blue is back. No, I signed up. I sold my book to Hollywood. I sold my book to Hollywood.

Kara Swisher: You mean you've been, it's been, okay, so let me give you a little lesson here. What do you mean by sold, white woman?

Scott Galloway: It's optioned. It's optioned.

Kara Swisher: Optioned. Okay, so just so you know, I don't want to burst your bubble. We can enjoy it for a minute. Okay, minute's up. Every book I've written has been optioned, and how many have made the big screen?

Scott Galloway: But yours will. I'm going to tell you, when you come to my Emmy Award winning party for it.

Kara Swisher: Emmy, Oscars. No, no, it's going to be a TV series. Bitch, we're going to the Venice Film Festival. You're dressing up. I think it's a TV series.

Scott Galloway: Oh, it's going to be original scripted drama? Who should play you? That's really what we want to know. Let's be honest. It's a toss up between Brad Pitt and the guy who played Elvis, Austin Butler. That shaved head, kind of that look he had in Dune. That's just, it's like looking in a mirror, Kara. It's like looking in a mirror.

Kara Swisher: Who optioned it? Are you allowed to say?

Scott Galloway: Yes, yes, I can. Tomorrow Studios, they made Snowpiercer, they made Physical, they made a whole bunch of stuff. But I think they're interested in a TV show. I think they're interested in a TV show, an ongoing limited series TV show. So I'm excited.

Kara Swisher: Oh my God, we're competitors. I'm doing something similar.

Scott Galloway: Oh, are you? Well, we'll see. Mine's a real story, I suppose.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I think I asked you to get involved and you said, no, I'm doing an original script or I'm working on an original scripted drama with billions. It's alternative investments or Succession was for family owned media. I'm doing the same thing for big tech.

Scott Galloway: Okay. All right. Well, mine's a real story. It's based on my experience.

Kara Swisher: It's a real story? Who should star as me? Kristen Stewart. It's got to be a believable lesbian.

Scott Galloway: I think you just have Anne Hathaway, a foot shorter and a much butchier haircut and boom, we're done.

Kara Swisher: That was good. We're so Hollywood. Let's see who gets made first. Okay, let's no, no. And Hathaway, just have her stop doing Botox for a month and boom, she looks like you. Well, I am thrilled to be doing the deal with Tomorrow Studios and I'm very excited. No comment. Huh? Actually, you know, it would be hilarious. I've got it. I've totally got it. You know who should play you?

Scott Galloway: Who?

Kara Swisher: Sheryl Sandberg.

Scott Galloway: I like it.

Kara Swisher: Oh, that'd be fun. I like it. Do you think? She needs a new career.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like it. Yeah, who would play you? That would be fun. We should definitely do.

Kara Swisher: I'm calling out a contest. Please on Threads, not on X, because it'll get ugly fast. On Threads.

Scott Galloway: The words Linda Hunt popped into my mind, but that's not fair nor nice. Never mind. I'm hanging up on you right now. We're done. We're done. Burn book. The TV series. I've enjoyed this so much.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, we have a lot to get to today. Trump's Bitcoin play, Kamala's fundraising numbers, and Elon's deepfake post. Plus, our friend of Pivot is Atlantic staff writer Anne Applebaum. She's got a new book out called Autocracy, Inc., The Dictators Who Want to Run the World. But first, President Joe Biden is proposing a reform to the Supreme Court, something you've talked about, that Biden is calling for term limits. He's listening to us, Scott. A binding ethics code and a constitutional amendment declaring presidents do not have immunity from crimes committed while in office. The proposed amendment called the No One is Above the Law Amendment would require two-thirds majority approval in the House and Senate, probably not going to get passed. So is this a good thing for him to be doing? He could do anything he wants right now, couldn't he?

Scott Galloway: I think it stretches us out wide. I mean, it's a shame. I would love to see this. Arguably the most powerful people in the world over the medium and the long term are the president and maybe even more so the Supreme Court justices. And, you know, to those whose power is granted much as expected, these people should have the highest standards in the world. And so, you know, you've got to cut a fine line between an ethics code and something that could be weaponized by opponents of that person's ideology and used as a means of getting them off the court. But what's happened here has gone so far in terms of Justice Thomas deciding, you know, which fabulous cruise or scuba trip he's going to take with which people with issues before the court. I was surprised they didn't have a binding ethics code like everybody else kind of does, right? I was sort of like, what? Like kind of term limits, I think, are the most important. I would love that. One, no, I have trouble thinking of any institution that has fallen further faster in terms of prestige and credibility than the Supreme Court of the United States. And two, we need more ageism in our country. We need to recognize that people's brains, perspectives, and capabilities change with age, both on the bottom. You can't run for president when you're 34, and you shouldn't be able to run for president when you're 75. So that should be the same way for the Supreme Court.

Kara Swisher: What's that?

Scott Galloway: I think 80. Oh, 75. You're right.

Kara Swisher: Let's cut the difference. 78.

Scott Galloway: 78. Fair enough. There you go. The constitutional amendment thing is a little more complicated because they have given a possibly terrible leader a lot of outs in terms of doing things. We'll see where that goes. That's a much more complex. From what I've talked to a lot of people about it, it's much more complex. But I think the ethics code and the term limits takes care of a lot of the problems we have with this court in a lot of ways. But I don't know.

Kara Swisher: So if they had the term limit, we'd know who won and who gets to appoint them pretty much in advance. So there's a little more planning to be done. Anyway, it's interesting. This is an interesting story. Did you see this Murdoch family in a court battle? Who will lead News Corp and Fox? Just wild. What do you think of this?

Scott Galloway: Oh, I know a lot about it. Let me just go through it for people. Currently, the family trust gives each of Rupert Murdoch's four children equal votes. He has two others, but they have ownership but not votes. He wants to change that. He made this when he divorced from his wife, Anna. She insisted on this. Rupert has filed a petition to amend the trust. It's an irrevocable trust, but that's what he's done, to give exclusive control to his oldest son, Lachlan. As reasoning he cites political differences with his other children that could impact editorial stance of his companies. The three other children have responded with a legal challenge. The trial is expected to be in September. This is in Nevada where this is. So it's one person who deals with trusts in the states. You know, there's one tiny little out that he's saying he's doing it for the benefit of these people. And he's doing it for political reasons. That's not the benefit of shareholders or anything else. Lachlan, who's presided over disaster after disaster at the company, including the lawsuits and behaviors and payoffs and everything else. I mean, Lachlan has been a terrible CEO in that regard. I don't think this helps shareholders. You know, what's interesting, I have a little knowledge of these people. They were not together, James, Liz, and I think it's Prudence. They were not aligned at all. Liz moved back and forth like Shiv on Succession. You know, she's very much wanting her dad and her to get along. So this united them, which was, of course, another stupid thing Lachlan does because he's as dumb as a box of hammers. So it's really interesting. You know, this is a family that has huge impact on our society. And he's trying to live beyond the grave, this old crusty old Dracula is trying to live beyond the grave. What do you think?

Scott Galloway: There are a few companies, I have a difficult time thinking of a for-profit company who has a greater impact relative to its market capitalization. I mean, I think the market cap of, I forget what the market cap is, but it's essentially, you know, you have, oh, it's $33 billion, which is, you know, Warner's 20, which is unfair because that's 40 billion in debt. So it's 60 billion in enterprise value, but it's $33 billion, which is, you know, big, but this is arguably, I mean, you can make an, you could definitely make an argument. This is one of the five or 10 most influential companies in the world. And a lot of people think that this company literally picks a Republican nominee for president and has a huge influence. And Jessica Tarloff, who I've been spending a lot of time with, who's kind of the...

Kara Swisher: You're welcome.

Scott Galloway: What's that?

Kara Swisher: I introduced you.

Scott Galloway: You introduced us?

Kara Swisher: Yes, I did.

Scott Galloway: Really? Yes. I didn't know that.

Kara Swisher: Almost everybody in porn introduced you. There you go. Anyway, go ahead.

Scott Galloway: Don't worry. I'll forget about you once I'm really famous.

Kara Swisher: Morning. Oh, yes. I remember her. I remember her. Sheryl Sandberg played her in the original scripted drama, right? That one? Anyways. From Tomorrow Studios. Anyway, sorry. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. When something gets optioned, I'm excited for you to see how basically L.A. offers Zuma Beach, the Hollywood Bowl, In-N-Out Burger, and a whole lot of people masturbating each other and never getting off. Nothing ever fucking gets done in that town, at least not with me. Anyways.

Kara Swisher: Let's move along.

Scott Galloway: Too much?

Kara Swisher: Not for you, but it does for Kara Swisher. But go ahead. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway: There you go. Anyways, Jessica, we were talking about, you know, she's on Fox. And she read me some stats that just blew my mind. Fox's viewership is really strong. I mean, he's actually, I don't think it's fair to say Lachlan's done a terrible job. I think the Dominion case was obviously a huge stubbed toe, but I think that's more about the fact that, well, anyways, I think it's unfair to say he's done a bad job.

Kara Swisher: Oh, come on.

Scott Galloway: The two cases are Smartmatic coming, but go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Kara Swisher: Well, okay. Let me say the HR has not been very good here, but the company is as influential as it has ever been. And the Wall Street Journal is amazing.

Scott Galloway: Anyways, up for debate whether you think it's done a good job or not. What I took from this entire story had nothing to do with business, nothing. And that is, I'm turning 50, and my sole objective right now, all the money I'm spending, almost every, like my biggest thing right now, my kids are about to be 14 and 17. I'm buying homes in beautiful places. I'm thinking about where we're going to live and making huge investments in my kids because all I want, first and foremost, is I want to spend a ton of time with my boys when they're older. And this is a man who by any stretch of the imagination, whether you think he's Satan's devil or whatever, has had a remarkably successful career in terms of influence and impact. And he's getting married. Three of his four kids didn't show up.

Kara Swisher: I know. Wasn't that incredible?

Scott Galloway: Which in my view means you have failed. Yeah. And I also reverse engineer to another thing, tax policy. I think we dramatically need to increase tax rates above, say, $10 million a year or on trusts. Because I'm telling you, Kara, creating dynasties, it doesn't do anyone any good.

Kara Swisher: Do you think this has been good for their family? It's what, it's Succession. We've got Succession here. And, you know, if he dies before this thing gets to trial, it stays the same. And then we'll see what happens to this company. Because the other three, I wouldn't call them united, but now they are. Now they're like, screw you, dad.

Scott Galloway: This is like the second thing. I'm just behind wanting to spend a lot of time with my boys. You know what I really hope? I really hope that my boys are friends when they're older. And sometimes with the way they go at it, I think that's not a given.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, it was tense between Lachlan and the rest of them. Because of business. Liz was between, Prudence is out in Australia, does her own thing. But it's just, it's ridiculous. It's a ridiculous thing to do at this moment in time, because he's going to, let me just tell you, Rupert Murdoch, you're going to die. Like, you know, for Moonstruck, no matter what you do, Rupert Murdoch, you're going to die. And you don't get to decide things after your death. That's it. That's it. And he's ruining the rest of his thing just because he has this, you know, some people think that Lachlan is unduly influencing him. He is 90-some years old.

Scott Galloway: That's one of the little things. Well, you can make the same argument on the other three.

Kara Swisher: No, they didn't start this thing. This has been in place for decades. They didn't move to change it.

Scott Galloway: A little bit of background. An irrevocable trust is basically a tax shelter, and this is what I'm getting at. Dynasties, as far as I can tell, don't do anyone any good. They remove tax dollars from the Commonwealth. Your wealth, your kids end up fighting each other and not showing up at their father's wedding. And dynastic wealth and tax policies that lead to dynasties used to be something that we weren't down with. We used to have very high inheritance taxes, and now we have raised the minimums from $5 million per person to $11 million. And here's the thing, and this is where I'm going, and I'm becoming Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. Giving your kids financial security, fine. OK, but if they each get $25 million, not necessarily a billion. Anything you give your kids above $10 or $20 million, it doesn't make them any happier. And at some point, when you have this dynasty that has all this political influence and impact on the world, it ends up separating families and dividing them.

Kara Swisher: That could be. But I'm saying this thing was in place for decades. He agreed to it. This is what it is. And now he's having buyer's remorse. It's all Rupert or Lachlan generated. This is not those other kids doing this.

Scott Galloway: But this is what you have to do to put something in, something that transfers to your kids tax-free, is called a trust. But the thing about the trust is it has to be irrevocable. Now, that term irrevocable is really important. It means that the construct and the agreements within the trust have to hold. You don't get to then decide to change it. And what he's claiming is, no, I want the irrevocable trust to be revocable. And there's a loophole, and the loophole is the following: If you can prove you're making decisions that help them economically, right? But he's basically going to try and say that my view, my endorsement of someone who has a different political complexion than the other three will help them economically. And I would think legally, the other three would be able to swat that down or just delay, just take a note, you know, page out of the Trump lawyer handbook and just keep delaying this case because his expiration date is about 10 years past due.

Kara Swisher: I don't know, his mother lived to like way past 100. I forget, she was riding around in a golf cart. Who knows? In any case, it's sad and pathetic and he's going right down the Sumner Redstone Avenue as they all, I thought maybe they would avoid this, but I don't know. Interesting about Jessica Tarlow, she cannot come on my shows, but she can go on your show because they don't like it.

Scott Galloway: Because I'm seen as Fox-friendly. I go on Fox.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, you're Fox-friendly. I'm not Fox-friendly. I'm Foxy. Irina won't let her on my shows. I like Neil Cavuto. I like Liz Claman. I love Stuart Varney. I like the people over there.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I don't get the same kind of thing. But you're welcome that you made a friend.

Kara Swisher: Well, let's be honest. When I say something stupid that inflames everybody. Like mediocre?

Scott Galloway: Calling?

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Scott Galloway: I'm not getting it. We're not discussing. Let's talk about it. I think it's interesting. I like running into the fire. So, but first, I just want to acknowledge-

Kara Swisher: Kara gets to come with you. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway: Whenever I see something that pisses people off, they get angry at you.

Kara Swisher: They do. Thank you.

Scott Galloway: They get angry at you. That is correct. And I'm like, I said it, not Kara. I know. I know. Anyways.

Kara Swisher: Oh, by the way, should we talk about that? All right. You called, you said she was a mediocre vice president. You said she was good at the other things. Okay, go ahead.

Scott Galloway: You're taking that out of context. The exact, so this is a thread that got 2,000 whatever likes and 2,200 comments. And this is the exact thread. I said, we should be open to the notion that someone who is a great attorney general, a great senator, and a mediocre vice president is better suited in an executive role. Now, and then I just went apeshit that I called her a mediocre vice president. Let me ask you this, Kara. A year ago, if you polled Democrats in the United States and said, is Vice President Harris in her role as vice president, is she bad, mediocre, or good? What do you think would have won?

Kara Swisher: I know. I don't think they like the word mediocre. I think it was the word selection.

Scott Galloway: I think I was being generous. Mediocre was a word that drove... I was doing posts of my kids popping bubble wrap and it came over into that feed. I was like, get the fuck out of my kid bubble wrap feed. Like, why are you? Do you know about Scott and mediocre? I'm like, I do. But let me be clear. The cultists on the left are just as culty as the cultists on the right. They were mad at us over the Biden thing. I'm basically saying. Now they're thrilled about Kamala. I'm basically saying. So now they're defending Kamala. I'm basically saying, I think Vice President Harris will likely make a good slash great president. I haven't been good at two out of three of my jobs. But everybody immediately goes, how dare you call the new cult leader in any capacity mediocre.

Kara Swisher: I know. Because these are the people who were attacking us when we said Biden should step aside. Just FYI.

Scott Galloway: Oh, yeah. The same people. Same people who are mad at us for pushing Harris anyway. The bumper sticker is now be a cultist or shut the fuck up. It just replaced Biden with Harris. And we have to have the thing I like about Democrats, or I'd like to think, is we're a little bit more critical thinkers. We're a little bit more nuanced than the far right weirdos that are just like, oh, he's Jim Jones. I'll drink Kool-Aid.

Kara Swisher: But you know what? It's really interesting. The people on the far right have just written me off. I think they attack you. They pretty much leave me alone, but they've just written me off. The people on the far left, they feel as if you've betrayed them. They treat you like an apostate, that you're the worst in the world because they thought they could trust you. And you have not signed up for the cult. And they come after you.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I agree.

Kara Swisher: Well, we have to move on. But nonetheless, get the fuck out of my feeds about Scott, about my other things. I love seeing the dog. No, I'm almost like he can say whatever he wants. He's not saying anything that's not reasonable. And then they attack you. No one ever comes after me for you. They're like, oh my God, how can you put up with her? But how much did you love? This is my favorite. I've watched Celine Dion singing. I posted her singing at the opening ceremonies. You love her now. And I'm like, I love Celine Dion. I did not know this.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, yeah. I remember watching her thinking, oh, my God, there's that lame Canadian. And I'm like, oh, my God, she's amazing. She's amazing. Did you see that?

Kara Swisher: Yes, of course I did. I was riveted to the horny Last Supper, which everyone got mad about. But anyway, we'll talk about the Olympics at the end. Anyway, we got to get to our first big story. We really have to move along. Elon Musk continues to be hellbent on sabotaging X, particularly when it comes to making the platform profitable. A *New York Times* piece from over the weekend details ex-CEO Linda Yaccarino's many attempts to repair X's advertising business over the last year in spite of Elon. Her efforts are likened to a game of corporate whack-a-mole. Actually, it's just not doing well. Stop it. She's been ineffective in the extreme. So what he was doing, he's doing a bunch of stuff. Internal documents obtained by the *Times* show that X earnings earned $114 million in revenue in the U.S. in the second quarter, a 53% decline. I'm surprised it's not more. She's been trying to bring it back. He also is using his own account to promote a fake, deep fake video of Kamala Harris. He reposted an edited Harris campaign ad on Friday that appears to have been digitally altered to add a new voiceover. And posting the video, Elon violated X's own policy in sharing synthetic and manipulated media. But no surprise, the post is still up. He doesn't care. He owns the place. He makes the rules. He who has the gold makes the rules. So he's just, as usual, making a mess. And then the last thing, his issues with his kids. I know you don't like to talk about this, but as I told you, it was a big frigging deal. His daughter Vivian, who's transgender, posted on Threads, finally debunking recent claims Elon made about her childhood. She also called him cruel and narcissistic in an interview on NBC News. You should go read it because he was making fun of her voice, etc., before she transitioned. The mother of Elon's ex, Grimes, whom I know, is also speaking out on social media. She's accusing Elon of withholding her three grandchildren from their mother and other members of the family. The great-grandmother is dying and they wanted to bring the kids to see her. It's just a mess. I found the whole thing so rattling because his daughter said the worst thing you can say about any father, and that is he wasn't involved. She basically said, all of this is bullshit. He just wasn't there. And when he was, he was mean. He was mean to her. Okay, so even worse.

Scott Galloway: And as someone whose father wasn't very involved in my life up until—I shouldn't say that, he did make an effort. And mostly because this wonderful woman, by the way, shout out to stepmothers, including Vice President Harris. Stepmothers, step-parents are some of the heroes. But the notion that your job as a dad is one—I do think it's important that you're a provider and a protector. But what your kids are going to remember is not how funny you were, how nice you were, what a ball you were. They're going to remember whether you were there or not. And this young woman remembers that he was not there. That is job number one for dads. We don't always get it right. I still struggle sometimes with how to interact and how to behave around my boys. But here's the thing, job number one is you got to be there, right? And she said the worst thing possible about him, said he wasn't.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. I think it was worse than that. I think his behavior was terrible when Vivian was a child in terms of making—he made up all these things about her saying fabulous, all this stuff. This is vile. And she wasn't having any of it. Like, she was like, uh-uh, that's never happened. The only time he did think he made fun of my voice, my high voice, and when he was trying to PR us in a car, right, use us as PR, which he's doing with this other kid. I hate this so much. I want to move on to what I think the bigger threat at X is. Everyone's focused on Linda Iaccarino and the soap opera there about the advertising. Something really dangerous happened on X. And that was the guy who controls an influential platform let a fake video, a deep fake, go out. And he endorsed it. And we predicted this earlier. And I think this is short term the biggest threat of AI. You're going to have a much—what I call shallow fakes. I would call what he did a shallow fake, the deposition and make candidates that aren't of his liking less attractive, likable, less votable. But this is what's going to get really fucking scary if they don't take actions and the government doesn't say you're going to get in a lot of trouble if you let this happen. If these platforms allow deep fake videos to come out in the few days leading up to the election, you're going to see video that looks very, very real of violence at polling stations that happen to be in key swing districts. The government, the DOJ, because we cannot wait on the better angels of these executives, much less the person we're referencing, you could see voter turnout substantially drop. If you're like most people and you're a single parent, you're trying to just get to work.

Scott Galloway: Why is he doing it now to test it out? I don't think he's that strategic. I just think he just hates Vice President Harris and thought it was funny. But this won't be funny if all of a sudden in swing districts the GRU or somebody else, a bad actor, starts showing fake—there's not only five swing states, there's like 10 or 11 counties in these swing states. What happens when a bunch of deep fakes come out 48 hours before—you're a single mom, you're trying to get to the voting booth, you're really fucking busy, and you see a shooting at your polling station that's forwarded to you from X.

Kara Swisher: If you're using some of these platforms, right? That's the thing. Oh, that shit will get around. That stuff would fly around every platform.

Scott Galloway: I'm not so sure. I think people are aware of this. And the fact that he did this is, of course, he's violating his own rules, which is, of course, some is like, can you believe it? I'm like, yes, he can do whatever he wants. It's a private platform. Yeah. Surprising, but not shocking. Or no, shocking, but not surprising. He's using it as a political tool. That's all that's happening here. And of course it makes—he doesn't care about the business. You're right. Linda Iaccarino hardly matters in this whole thing. She can sit around and do her little breathless, "this is going to be a video platform." Like Linda, what are you doing? You're not running a company. You're running a—he's just using it for a political cudgel. That's it. That's all that's happening here. She's the circus clown following around an elephant scooping up his shit. She's constantly—she's basically the most overpaid apologist in history other than someone being in the Trump cabinet. Or I was so disappointed by that Governor Sununu who went on and when Trump said that you'll never need to vote again, he said, "Oh, it's just Donald being Donald." Fuck you. He didn't mean it that way. Elon was also defending. Anyway. If you're explaining yourself, you're fucked. Linda Iaccarino is literally moving from irrelevant to less relevant. And it makes for a fun story and clickbait. She has almost no influence at that company. She doesn't make any decisions. She has no control over her boss. She's pushing a rock up a hill, trying to call advertisers who, my understanding is, love her and have had a wonderful experience with her professionally. And saying, "Linda, I love you, but there's no fucking way we're pulling up a seat to, as you call it, the Nazi porn bar."

Kara Swisher: Yeah, Nazi porn bar. It's amazing. I mean, I think this is just not a business. I don't know what she's doing there. It's just—I don't really care because I don't really care for her, but it's embarrassing. It's an embarrassing way to spend your life. If you're a real ad person which you used to be, get a job at a real company. As difficult as it may be at an NBC or a Warner. This is just—you're a ridiculous figure at this point. Just a ridiculous side note to this really terrible person. It's embarrassing. Anyway, and as to the families, including Vivian and the others, Sandy, who's Grimes' mother, and Grimes herself supported Vivian, by the way. It's really brave of you. I know it sounds silly, but it's brave to speak out. This guy has unlimited power, unaccountable power, and money, and influence. And to do this says a lot. He can come at them in ways that are really dangerous. And of course, their kid's at stake. So I admire you for speaking out. And in the case of Vivian, you're super frigging funny. She's really, really funny. One of the things she did, she was talking about not regretting transitioning. And she said, "To insinuate that I regret it is just plain false," and she goes on and talks about it. And at the end, this is what she wrote: "This is the last I'm going to touch on that interview where Elon was saying all those false things for the time being, at least on this platform. But other people have talked about me and twisted my narrative for profit for multiple years at this point, so I think it's fair I try twisting it back with my own, my silly little platform now that I have a chance. Also, if you are seen at my funeral, you're getting canceled." I thought that was funny. Because it was, you know, he deadnamed her, he called her dead and this and that. Anyway, very funny person.

Scott Galloway: But if I were—again, in the Trump—now that Vice President Harris is clearly probably going to raise a billion dollars, that everybody, all of a sudden everyone's like, "Yeah, I like this idea. I want to put my time, treasure and talent towards this." They have the firepower now to go after several messaging dimensions. And one of those messaging dimensions should be the following. They should show old Republicans talking about the importance of family values. And then they should say, "We agree." And think about three families: the Trump family, Musk is now very tightly associated with the right, he's gone red-pilled, and the Murdochs. Look at the family. Okay, Trump, his wife does not like him. They're not affectionate with each other. They don't really appear to like each other. Musk, let's not even go there. It's pretty clear Musk's approach to family dynamics. And then let's talk about the Murdoch family where the kids don't show up at the wedding. And now let's talk about the Biden and Harris families. Right? Talk about—you know what I love about Vice President Harris? She kisses her husband on the mouth. She does. In public. They're very sexy. Don't you think they're sexy? I like that. I've seen them in person. They look like they want to have sex. That's a nice thing. The Biden family? I mean, this is a guy who's a family man. So we absolutely should take family values. All this stuff in the 70s and 80s about the importance of family values, say we agree, and here are our family values. Because if you look at the people really dominating the Trump campaign in terms of influence, I mean, do you want to talk about fucked up blue velvet families, dysfunctional, a lack of love and respect? Oh, by the way, he keeps talking about childless women and that we have to love families and liberals don't love family. Again, J.D., I have more children than you do, so you better get to it.

Kara Swisher: Do you have cats? Cats. I have cats. I have a cat. I have a single cat. Anyway, cats are great. And dogs are great, too. Let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Trump makes an appeal to the Bitcoin bros. We'll speak with a friend of Pivot, Anne Applebaum, about the rise of autocrats around the world, too.

[AD BREAK]

Kara Swisher: Scott, we're back. Former President Donald Trump is vowing to turn the U.S. into a crypto capital of the planet if he returns to the White House. Trump spoke at the Bitcoin 2024 conference in Nashville over the weekend. He vowed to create a national Bitcoin stockpile if elected. If elected, he also pledged to fire SEC Chair Gary Gensler on day one, who is a real foe to the crypto people go crazy over him. So he's courting the Bitcoin bros. Kamala's not averse to them at all. Kamala's advisors have approached top crypto companies to reset relations. They want to create a framework for regulation rather than getting campaign donations. I don't think she's particularly hostile to them. And so he's trying—I don't know what he's doing here going for the Bitcoin bros. I just don't feel like it's a constituency that really needs—I don't know, what do you think?

Scott Galloway: The crypto bros—I mean, this is shaping up to be literally, in kind of full form, kleptocracy. Let's just be honest about it. We have huge investments in crypto. And if you're a president and say that you're going to deregulate it or use the treasury or the full faith and credit of the government to endorse Bitcoin, sending our Bitcoin investments to the roof, we're going to raise you a shit ton of money. I mean, that's kind of indirectly been happening for a long time. But this feels just patently like—you know, if you asked Donald Trump to explain what the blockchain is, I just don't think he has any ability to say anything about crypto. But what I think what quite a few well investors have said is that we'll raise you a shit ton of money, but be clear, this is how we're going to get payback. And if you look at—it's also Gary Gensler. I just would describe it as anti-crypto. He's been thoughtful about it. And there's now crypto ETFs. They have not done anything. I mean, I just don't—the crypto bros are maximalists and want—again, I think it's this sort of crude sort of, "I'm with you, I won't be thoughtful about it, I'll just pay you back, just raise me a billion dollars." That's not supposed to be how government works. We're supposed to elect a bunch of people who have run a tragedy of the commons and be thoughtful about regulation and be thoughtful about a good approach to this. But I think the position that Biden is anti-crypto and Gensler is anti-crypto—I just don't think that's fair.

Kara Swisher: Right, right, right. You know, interesting. There's this good story by Sean McCreesh, who used to work for *New York Magazine*. And he was talking about him visiting this Christian group in Palm Beach this week and also in Nashville. And he goes, "He begs, he blusters, he makes outlandish promises and his attempts to win over a crowd that is not inherently his own can be acutely awkward." You know, he just doesn't know anything about this. He just doesn't. He just has been pushed in a certain direction and saying, "Let's get some money from these Bitcoin bros." Because, I mean, he started by saying, "Hello, Bitcoiners," and talking about it. So he just doesn't. He has a portable printer where he prints news off the internet in paper form so he can read it. He doesn't know anything about what he's doing. And he just flatters them. He's trying to get money from them. And then he started talking about his third wedding to Melania. I don't even understand. It was just the weirdest speech. And so he's promising a crypto advisory council, the National Strategic Bitcoin stockpile, firing Gensler, as you said, which is kind of ridiculous. It's just he's just like sucking up to them.

Scott Galloway: What these guys don't realize, they may get a pop in the short run. Over the long term, I believe Bitcoin price is higher with thoughtful regulation that gives retail investors the confidence to invest in what is a legitimate asset class. And it may not get there as quickly as they like. But if you have a total Wild West economy around this stuff, you're going to see hacks. And Harris is going to modulate just like she just did on fracking. She's like, "I'm not against fracking." She just did that. So she's going to—every time he does something, she's going to modulate and be like, "I'll talk to you and stuff like that," which is, I think, smart on her behalf.

Kara Swisher: Speaking of smart, the Harris campaign, as you noted, has raised more than $200 million in the last week. Two thirds of that money is from first-time donors. Virtual campaign rallies, as you said, are going to be a big deal. You're doing "White Dudes for Harris." Now you're going to be speaking there.

Scott Galloway: This is our time. You know, there's a lot of us and I'm one of those people and I've been trying—there's a—what is the difference between an opinion and a value is that you're willing to sacrifice. And I'm sick of—we spent a lot of time talking about Democrats and Harris and how dangerous Trump is. And so now it's time to show people this is a value and commit your time, your treasure and your talent. My message is threefold. The most important thing to American families, I believe at the end of the day, is a robust economy. And we would not want to do anything differently in the sense that we have inflation coming down, we have the greatest job growth in history, markets are touching all-time highs. Let's keep this disco party going. And the greatest chance of keeping that party going are to maintain the current people in place. Our growth has been unbelievable. China has shed $6 trillion in market cap. This is still the most—the economy here—and again, Democrats are ridiculously bad at messaging. The economy here is unbelievable. It's just incredible what the economy has done here. Let's keep it going, too. Israel. I believe the only way we have a sustainable peace there is with thoughtful people who bring a bunch of people to the table and are thoughtful about all parties and do diplomacy, not someone who makes bold, macho statements and then like a cat goes to the next dot. Do you realize that Trump said to Netanyahu publicly, "Fuck him," because Netanyahu refused to say Biden was an illegitimate president? That's what you're dealing with in the Middle East if Trump is president. And then specifically with respect—and then my last point would be the following. I'm the father of two boys. It is impossible for young men around the world not to look up to and model the president. And these are questions I got from my 7- and 10-year-old during the Trump administration. "Who is Stormy Daniels?" "Dad, what do you think is the best nickname that Trump has come up with?" That's not a role model for young men. So one, we want a booming economy. We want a thoughtful, measured, sustainable peace in the Middle East. And we want someone our young men and boys can look up to.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I think that's good. That's good. Don't know Chipotle and Ozempic and penis enhancing drugs. I'm so indignant. I'm caffeinated right now. Don't say the word mediocre. If you say the word mediocre, I'll kill you.

Scott Galloway: Oh, Jesus Christ. The cultists will come for me.

Kara Swisher: No, they'll come for me. The cultists will come. They'll come for me. They come for me. We're getting attacked on Twitter by the tech bros. We're getting attacked on Threads by the Democratic cultists. There's no room in the middle. Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right. Here I am, stuck in the middle with you.

Scott Galloway: Oh my God. All right. Okay. How do you assess Kamala Harris's digital strategy?

Kara Swisher: Pretty good. Pretty good. She's really funny. The press releases are hysterical, calling them weird. And whoever's doing them is definitely under like 35 years old or 30 years old. It's someone who has some talent at this. I think they're doing really well. It's stuff they're doing themselves. And also the stuff that's being created is a lot of fun. We'll see if it matters, but it's actually really fun and well done, I think.

Scott Galloway: I think she's been good, but I think the real power here is that her candidacy has ignited a new generation of creators who are just incredibly talented. You know, this might be the first kind of what you call—every presidency has a different medium, right? Trump was the Twitter presidency. JFK was the TV, FDR was the radio presidency. This is going to be probably the TikTok or video presidency, you know, short form video. And there's just millions of young people who didn't vote in the last election, who weren't voting age, who are inspired. They're more non-white. They're more progressive, generally speaking, although Trump's picked up a lot of people on the young side. They're still predominantly Democrat. And they're great with these mediums and they're inspired and they're creative. And there's just a bunch of cool shit out there. It's really cool to watch it. It's fun. We'll see if it translates into votes, but it certainly is. It's really being well done.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, and I think it's fun. It feels fun is what it is, especially with her dancing, because she's such a better dancer than Donald Trump.

Scott Galloway: She's got a lot, yeah, 100%. Also, she's outstanding. Have you noticed? She's outstanding on a ramp. She really knows how to handle a ramp.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, she knows how to handle it. She dances down a ramp. Anyway, let's bring in our friend of Pivot. Anne Applebaum is a staff writer at *The Atlantic* and the author of the new book, *Autocracy, Inc.: The Dictators Who Want to Run the World*. Welcome, Anne.

Anne Applebaum: Thank you.

Kara Swisher: So, let's start with your book, *Autocracy, Inc.*, with the one man who wants to rule the world. Let's start with Donald. There's so much to talk about, including what's happening in Venezuela right now on the left. But let's start with Donald Trump. I want to play some comments he made to a group of Christian voters at an event this weekend and get your thoughts.

[Audio clip of Donald Trump: "Christians, get out and vote, just this time. You won't have to do it anymore. Four more years, you know what? It'll be fixed. It'll be fine. You won't have to vote anymore, my beautiful Christians. I love you, Christians. I'm a Christian. I love you. Get out. You got to get out and vote. In four years, you don't have to vote again. We'll have it fixed so good you're not going to have to vote."]

Kara Swisher: So, Anne, how concerned should people be when they hear those words?

Anne Applebaum: You should be concerned because he's trying to get you used to a set of ideas. And the ideas are that voting doesn't matter, or rather that only votes for him matter. And so once he wins, nothing else is important. And whether he's joking or not joking, I don't think it makes that much difference. The point is to accustom audiences to a certain set of ideas. And of course, he's not the first person to think of doing that.

Kara Swisher: So when you look at that, you know, you talk a lot in *Autocracy* about the different techniques that people use. And in your latest piece in *The Atlantic*, you talk about him being older and more deranged and everything else. So I'd love you to give a sense of where he fits into *Autocracy, Inc.* and explain what *Autocracy, Inc.* is. You were talking last night at your book party, that it's a network, not a movement. They're not necessarily all aligned with each other.

Anne Applebaum: Yeah, that's exactly it. So what the book describes is a network of autocrats. It's not an alliance. There isn't a secret room where they all meet and make decisions. And we're talking about a specific group of countries—we're talking about Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, Venezuela, Belarus, and a handful of others—who are led by people who don't believe that they should have any checks on their power. They should have total impunity. They should be able to do whatever they want. They shouldn't be stopped by media, by judges, by lawyers, by courts, and of course, not by voters either. And so they have this vision of absolute power. It's something that they deserve because they represent the people or because they're so great or because they're so wealthy. I mean, they're a little bit different justifications in each country, and they're not necessarily linked ideologically, but they share this affinity for absolute power and they seek to help one another in attempts to keep it and preserve it.

Kara Swisher: And how so? How do they do that?

Anne Applebaum: So through, for example, sharing surveillance technology, watching how one another represses their oppositions. And all of them have activists and oppositions who talk about the rule of law, who sometimes talk about democracy. So they understand those things as their main challenge. And also through their use of our financial system, basically, to steal and launder and keep large amounts of money. So we're talking about people who are often very, very rich, some of the richest people on the planet. And that, I think, is one of the things that distinguishes them from some of the more famous dictators of the 20th century. So they're wealthy, they share their wealth, they share their technology, they share techniques, and they help keep one another in power. And of course, you know, Donald Trump is outside of that world now. He does admire it. He talks frequently about how much he would like to be like President Xi or like President Putin. He wrote letters to the dictator of North Korea. We all know those stories. And that's because he instinctively—I don't know if he frames it this way in his mind—but he instinctively admires their ability to get away with whatever they want.

Kara Swisher: Right, which is what he's admiring. How likely would it be that he could impose this? You warn a lot about this happening. We are a much larger and much more diverse country, a bigger country. How likely that this would work in a country like this that we are in now?

Anne Applebaum: So I'm not sure that it would work. And I'm pretty sure he would not be able to establish some kind of absolute monarchy or absolute dictatorship. The federal system alone would block him. The point is that he can do a lot of damage by trying. So even if he can't—and it's not gonna, you know, ultimately, we will not look like Nazi Germany—he can succeed in hollowing out institutions, in making people lose faith in the democratic system. He could make people lose faith in the voting system, which has already happened. I mean, some of this is—some of this we're talking about as if it's in the future, but actually it's already with us. It's already begun. And so, you know, he could persuade people that it's not so bad to steal an election, and we could have people try to steal elections. That could create quite a lot of chaos. You can imagine, you know, play that out down the road, not just in 2024, but in 2028. Imagine that Trump wins now and J.D. Vance is his vice president. Vance has already said he would have not done what Pence did and blocked an attempt to steal the election. So then already we're in trouble at our next election. So you can see the damage, the chaos, the distraction, the collapse, really, of any kind of unitary American government as the result of Trump's autocratic wishes and desires.

Kara Swisher: We spent a lot of time talking about or trying to connect Trump's actions with the actions or complexion of an autocrat and look through history and how bad autocracy can end. I'm more interested in what we can do about it. Can you speak to historically how emerging autocrats have been pushed back? What would be the handbook for a democracy repelling a move to autocracy? Who's been successful at staving this off?

Anne Applebaum: Well, the Poles were successful. Poland, which is a country I live in part of the time, was run between 2015 and last October by an autocratic ruling party that was interested in destroying institutions, much like Viktor Orban's Fidesz party in Hungary. And they did manage—there was enough of the system preserved, there was enough of a free election preserved—so that when they ran an election in October, they managed to pull together a coalition and win.

So part of the answer was a coalition. The coalition that won went from the center-left through the center-liberals to the center-right. People who don't like each other and don't agree about everything, but agreed that they had to beat this party, ironically called the Law and Justice Party, through an enormous amount of civic engagement. People joined Get Out the Vote teams. There was a protest against a kind of fake judicial reform that was, in effect, an attempt to change the judiciary. The way the winning parties—sorry, the current government—campaigned, they campaigned everywhere. They campaigned at all levels, at the grassroots level. We are the broad majority.

There's another piece that has to do with election monitoring, which may or may not be a problem in our election too—probably it will. But it's thinking about the election as a political movement rather than just an ordinary election. It's not just, okay, some people have got to vote. We need everybody to be involved.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I had thought that someone asked me what I thought. I said she should go to places they don't like her. That's what she should spend a lot of time doing. Instead of being in places where they go "go girl," right? Don't go to the "go girl." Go to places where they just start to see you and kind of like you, because you can be likable. They can sort of see things differently.

Right now, of course, there's this election, as we're talking, this fraudulent election in Venezuela. It feels like the authoritarian president, Nicolas Maduro, claiming victory is on the left. Several countries, including the U.S., are raising questions about the election, calling for transparency in the vote count. Talk about how he fits in a pattern of autocratic leaders. He's not right. He's left, I guess, right? Which I don't quite know what to call him. Talk a little bit about what's happening there.

Anne Applebaum: Left. Yeah, so it's very interesting because actually you can destroy your democracy from the left or from the right. The kind of ideology you use isn't as important as what you do. What Hugo Chavez, who was Nicolas Maduro's predecessor, did in Venezuela wasn't that different from what Viktor Orban did in Hungary, or what the previous government, the Law and Justice Party, tried to do in Poland. Destroying institutions, undermining the judiciary, suppressing the media. In Venezuela, there was actually more violence than there was in Hungary or Poland. But that was their path to power. It wasn't different just because they used Marxist-sounding language—it doesn't make them any less anti-democratic.

Maduro also fits in in a different sense in that how has he stayed in power? He's very, very unpopular. Actually, this election was a landslide, and this will come out in the next couple of days. I've already seen some of the evidence. The opposition were doing this kind of parallel vote tabulation. They have data from precincts. It was a landslide for the opposition. Why haven't the opposition been able to win before? And the answer is that Maduro has been supported by the Russians who invest money in Venezuela, by the Chinese who share surveillance technology with Venezuela, by the Iranians who help the Venezuelans evade sanctions and in exchange get the Venezuelans to help them get visas for Hezbollah operatives in Europe, by the Cubans who lend them secret police and secret police tactics. It's almost as if a kind of team of autocrats—this network that I was talking about before—has helped them stay in power. Watch over the next few days, that group of countries has already recognized the false election and will begin their attempt to maintain him in power.

Kara Swisher: Maintain him in power. Can I follow up on that? You write about Western countries and individuals who enabled Putin, Trump, and others in your reporting in the book. I just finished listening to the season of *Ultra* by Rachel Maddow, which is about how we've had it happen here many times. They tried the America First, the original America First people, Father Coughlin. They were put on trial. People sacrificed a lot of their careers to stop them. What did you learn from the people who enabled these people? Because it's happened in this country before, and they just didn't win. They got close, certainly close enough.

Anne Applebaum: When you study autocracies, when you look at the different cultures that have produced them, I think what you learn is that no country is exceptional. There are people who would prefer an autocratic system in every country on the planet, including ours. They prefer it either because they're going to make money out of it, or because they're more comfortable with the idea of a single leader, or because they have come, for whatever reasons, to dislike their country and its system so much. In our case, it would be because it's so woke, or it's so multicultural, or it's so different from the America that I grew up in, or the America that I want to live in, that they are willing to go along with somebody who wants to destroy it. That can happen anywhere.

Kara Swisher: What do you see as most hopeful globally? You mentioned Poland. It looks like Hungary—we don't know how that's going to play out. But let's limit it to the U.S. Do you see that some of the inspiration around, or the momentum that Vice President Harris seems to have ignited—do you see any connection between that and people actually fearing a move towards autocracy, or are they independent of each other?

Anne Applebaum: So here's what I liked about the movement around President Harris—the soon-to-be President Harris, maybe-to-be President Harris. What I liked about it was this enormous, spontaneous outburst that accompanied it. It's been written about eight million times, I don't have to repeat it here. The memes and the... What I liked about it was that it wasn't controlled. It wasn't produced by her campaign. It wasn't a top-down, organized, mass effort. It meant that people got together and did it themselves. And of course, that is the definition of civil society and civic engagement. Making a meme online is the cheapest and easiest form of civic engagement. But in addition to that, there's been this enormous number of people signing up to work on her campaign. Civic engagement, participation—that's what makes change and that's what preserves democracy.

If you look at Poland, or actually even this Venezuelan election—I don't know what's going to happen or whether they're going to win—but boy, was the opposition impressive. The numbers of people who voted, the numbers of people involved. They had an opposition primary, which is, as you can imagine, a very divided opposition. Nevertheless, they came together around one candidate. She was blocked, and they came together around another candidate. People were really determined to be involved in this election and to make change. That's what you need.

Kara Swisher: I suspect the danger is if they don't get what they deserve here, they'll feel overwhelmed and feel like there's nothing to be done. That's the worry about a Trump win, for example. If all this excitement is around Harris and then she doesn't win, people will be like—the air will come out of the excitement.

If she is president, if she becomes president, how are these autocrats going to deal with a President Kamala Harris? They tried very hard to stop a President Hillary Clinton, for sure. But it's back to this idea of hope towards a woman candidate, someone who's obviously liberal democracy, etc.

Anne Applebaum: They will as a group put an enormous amount of effort into this election campaign. They will do propaganda. They will do social media. They will produce narratives that will be borrowed by Americans. None of this requires any kind of secret collusion or anything like that. It will all be out in the open. There may be events that happen, whether in the Middle East or in Ukraine or elsewhere in the world, that are designed to throw the election off or designed to help Trump. If Harris were to win, you would see some of the same. You would see efforts to throw her off balance from the very beginning.

For some of these countries in particular—for Russia—this is win or lose. They're waiting for this election to resolve the war in Ukraine. They cannot win unless they're handed a victory, unless the United States says, "Right, we're not backing Ukraine anymore." It's much easier for them to win by trying to shape the U.S. election than it is by trying to crawl across heavily mined territory in eastern Ukraine. They have a lot of interest in this outcome, and they will be running a campaign just like Harris will.

Kara Swisher: What would be the thing you think they would do, if you had to anticipate?

Anne Applebaum: There will be a social media campaign. They will join the attempt to smear her or make her look—whether it's using racism or misogyny. They will try to make her look incompetent. As I said, I don't want to play guessing games. There could be a hostage situation. They could negotiate a release of one of the American hostages in Russia with Trump. There could be tricks played in order to make him look good and her look incompetent. I would just be on the lookout for it, because it's very, very much in their interest for her to lose.

Kara Swisher: There's usually some sort of manifesto or unifying theory around an autocrat's rise to power. Do you think Project 2025 is that handbook? Do you see anything specifically there that feels like something out of the autocrat's handbook?

Anne Applebaum: Well, famously, Project 2025 is borrowed almost directly from what the Hungarians did, as far as I can tell. There are deep links between the Heritage Foundation, who wrote it, and the Hungarian government. Taking over the institutions, removing people's rights, altering educational institutions—all those are things that have been done before. In Hungary, they were done peacefully. They were done largely legally, either through breaking norms or fiddling around the law or changing the Constitution. I imagine there are people around Trump—who knows what he himself thinks—and that seems to be their goal. As I said, it sounds crazy, and maybe they can do it, maybe it won't work, but it will create a lot of chaos if they try.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, that's absolutely right. Anyway, Anne, it's a terrific book. I've read it, it's fantastic. The book is *Autocracy, Inc.: The Dictators Who Want to Run the World*, and good fucking luck, boys. We'll see if you can do it. Thank you.

Anne Applebaum: Thanks, Anne.

Kara Swisher: All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

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Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, let's do some wins and fails. Shall I start?

Scott Galloway: I'll go first.

Kara Swisher: You go first. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway: I'll start with my fail. I think Vice President Harris should have showed up for Netanyahu's comments. I think she needs to take the Israel issue from Republicans, because I think Harris and Biden should be more strident and beat their chest a little bit more about how America, under the Biden and Harris administration, has been more supportive of Israel when it counted than any nation in the world. I think it was a mistake for her to be visibly absent there.

But the real fail was Netanyahu's comments. He's basically endorsed Trump. On Friday, Prime Minister Netanyahu suggested that U.S. Vice President Kamala Harris's comments on the humanitarian situation in Gaza might, open quote, "hinder a deal for the release of hostages." So he's basically gone all in on Trump. World leaders do not typically criticize a candidate like that. He's gone all in on Trump. And Netanyahu, in my view, continues to be terrible for Israel because, again, basic scenario planning. Right now, the race is a toss up. His comments should have been the following: "We had a frank and productive conversation." Stop talking. Because if Harris wins, for him to go all in on Trump—that's just not a thoughtful way to position your nation for continued alliance that is arguably one of the strongest in the world.

I think it was a tactical mistake for Vice President Harris to give the Republicans a wedge issue. They immediately couched her actions and comments as anti-Semitic, which they were not. If you look at what she said, she said, "We are their steadfast ally. They have a right to defend themselves. We need to be empathetic to the humanitarian crisis in Gaza." That is not an unreasonable thing to say. But she gave them fodder by not showing up. She should have showed up. She's not afraid of anybody. But the real fail is that for those of us who are hoping for sustainable peace, like many Israelis realize, Netanyahu has been a fucking disaster for Israel. He continues to do stupid things, hoping he's making a big bet on Trump. As a world leader, you do not make one bet. You do not flip a coin and endorse a candidate. Because if Harris does win, that's just not a good idea to alienate the leader of the strongest nation in the world who has a 50% probability of being elected.

My win, simply put, is the Olympics. There are just so many wonderful, inspiring moments. First off, Paris—the home of luxury—they just know how to put on a show. Those rings of people running down the boulevard. Celine Dion at the opening ceremonies. Simone Biles gets all the warranted attention—she's just a phenomenon. But there are also so many cool stories.

Kara Swisher: Gosh, I thought you'd mentioned a threesome, the threesome that they were doing, the clown threesome, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway: I don't know if I'm getting her name right, but Hidilyn Diaz—the Philippines' first ever Olympic gold medalist in weightlifting. Oh my God. I've been seeing TikToks in slow motion. Can you imagine how much it means for her and her family in the Philippines to win the first gold medal? I loved watching that TikTok.

Then my favorite was the team—I think it's called Team Cookin' and Bacon. The U.S. duo of Sarah Bacon and Cassidy Cook were nearly flawless in their five dives in the women's synchronized three-meter springboard finals to win a silver medal. They're best friends who have put their life on hold into their late 20s. Bacon made the team this year on her fourth trip to the trials. The fourth was probably her last time to get to the Olympics. Cook returned to her second Olympics after finishing 13th. These two women have been in a pool, diving into the water together five hours a day for the better part of a decade. That must have been such a nice moment for them and their families.

As the Olympics has sort of waned in terms of viewership, I really think it produces some wonderful emotional moments. I think Comcast is doing it. Amanda's a big Olympic lunatic. She loves watching the Olympics. She's been using the Peacock app and all the—she loves it. It's well done. Mark Lazarus, who runs it, fantastic.

Kara Swisher: It's interesting you say that, because if you watch it on NBC, it's frustrating because someone else is picking that you're going to watch swimming now. Whereas on the Peacock app, you can pick the sport you want to watch. So if you're super into surfing, you can just watch surfing. For me, the Olympics in terms of media consumption really highlighted how powerful streaming is. They didn't do such a good job last Olympics. Mark Lazarus has really improved. He's done a great job. But anyways, my win is the Paris Olympics. I think they're doing a great job.

Scott Galloway: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: Okay. My win is—I got to say, there's a *New York Times* story about this—the fighting in Silicon Valley between old bros on each side of this thing is just, they're yelling at each other. The wars that are going on between the teams—essentially Vinod Khosla and Reid Hoffman and Reed Hastings versus David Sacks and Elon, and I guess Chamath is somewhere in the fucking middle. Who knows what that guy is. Such a clown. What are they arguing about? I read about this and I couldn't care less. They're worrying about different deals. Anyway, talking about their behaviors—all this stuff that's been under the covers in Silicon Valley is now out in the open and they're all warring with each other. Who cares? They're arguing about deals 20 years before, like I covered actually. I'm really enjoying the bro-on-bro, tech bro-on-tech bro fighting. It has nothing to do with me. I'm sitting back and going—they just—it's just enjoyable. It's not schadenfreude, but I am enjoying it. It's a win for Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway: Those guys are definitely doing too much.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Scott Galloway: I actually don't think it's ketamine. I think it's cocaine. I think those guys are doing a little too much of the devil's dandruff. They're partaking in the white girl interrupted powder, if you know what I mean, Kara. Those people, they reek of guys who are like—I don't know.

Kara Swisher: Well, not all of them. I wouldn't say. But why would they do that? Why would they shitpost each other on Twitter? I don't get it.

Scott Galloway: They just love to do it. It's just going crazy.

Kara Swisher: It's about literally stuff. Scott, 30, 20 years ago, I found one of my stories on one of the issues they were talking about. They're just—and largely because—I'm sorry—a lot of the people that are arguing, David Sacks is not in any way a particularly successful entrepreneur compared to the rest of them. I think they're annoyed by him in that regard. It's sort of like your least talented entrepreneur is acting like he's all that. I think that's what's going on there. In any case, it's enjoyable to watch. I did not create it, I had nothing to do with it, and I can just enjoy it from the sidelines.

Scott Galloway: You can just sit back and enjoy it.

Kara Swisher: Not to me, but I'm enjoying it.

My win is Vivian Jenna Wilson, who is the daughter of Elon Musk. I think she's very funny. She's handling a lot of these issues around her father, who was a terrible, terrible parent, with a lot of class and humor, and seems very funny. I'm really—she's speaking up for herself, but she's not doing it in a way that is angry. It's angry enough, but it's certainly funny, truthful. You can feel her talking. I don't usually love these brawls. This brawl, I kind of like because she's getting there. She's telling her truth, her narrative, and she's reclaiming it. He's using her as a prop and to make points about the woke mind virus. It's been heinous to watch how he behaves towards trans people. She's a real person and is taking control of her narrative. I always love to see it. She's doing it with wit and humor. It says a lot about her mom, Justine, who raised her. It's really nice to see someone defend themselves against constant attacks by someone who is his father in name only.

Oh, also, I forgot to mention Vance's attacks on women who get cats. Really, it's not only not nice, it's totally inaccurate. You know that there's research showing that older women, they actually start getting dogs. It's called mani-paws.

Scott Galloway: Oh my God. That makes me happy. I don't care. Bring it on Twitter. I'm going to let that one just go. I'm just going to ignore it. I'm going to move along and I'll leave it. I have been waiting for an opening the entire show for that joke. I will post a picture of a sunset. Get it? Many paws? Many paws? I will pose like a beautiful sunset in San Francisco and they'll go, "Do you know what Scott did? Many paws." I'm like, "No." I just love creating trouble for you because people have given up on me. They know I'm tasteless, but they come after you. I just ruined your day. I'm having a nice moment retweeting like a cooking video. Many paws. It's like, "What about Scott?" And I'm like, "Get out of my pasta making tweet, or whatever thread. Get out of my pasta thread."

By the way, word to all my brothers out there—when your wife's being a little bit upset at you, just stop and say, "Is this the menopause speaking?" See what happens.

Kara Swisher: Oh. Okay. All right. This is it. This is it. We're getting a divorce.

Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show, or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Friday for more. Read us out.

Scott Galloway: Today's show was produced by Larry Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Groth. Ernie Ducat engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Emil Severio. Yashad Kirouaz, Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to *Pivot* from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

Kara Swisher: How do you stave off an autocrat? Civic engagement.