Peter Thiel is Pennywise, Trump's racist tweets, and Kara meets the Yang Gang

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**Main Content:**

Kara Swisher: Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway. Hello, Scott. I'm in San Francisco, and you're in New York. They have a big, giant—I'm going to put this on the Internet—a picture of you above my head. It's like a giant head, like the Apple commercial.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. Well, remember, I'm a Mac. You're a PC. That whole thing. What are you? Are you a Mac or a PC?

Kara Swisher: Oh, no. I'm the Palm Pilot that never got launched. What am I? They showed that off at Code—our version of Code many years ago. I'm an—we all knew it was a dud right from the start, like immediately. I'm the foldable phone.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. Shit, I don't know. What tech would you be? If you were tech, what would you be?

Kara Swisher: What would I be if I were tech? I'm AirPods. AirPods, nice. You're pods. Yeah, that's nice. Everybody likes them. It makes people look bad, but they still like them. They don't know why they like them, but they put them in their ears. You see what I'm saying? Except for the ear part.

Scott Galloway: Anyways, anywho. So look, you've had a big week. You had interviews with presidential candidates Yang, Bennett, and Buttigieg. So I would like you to kind of summarize your general impression of the three of them or compare and contrast them. What's your take on them? Headline news on each of them.

Kara Swisher: All right. Here's the deal. So first I interviewed Michael Bennett with someone who you're a big fan of and spent time with. Super brainy. And you can hear it. He's super brainy in any other world. He would be the leading presidential candidate, you know, any other era. But not this era because things have changed so drastically. He's very smart. He has lots of great ideas about, you know, I don't want to say the word "real Americans," but he thinks about other things besides the ongoing fracas in Washington, D.C., and between Trump and the world, essentially. And so although he does participate in it, he's really just has lots of great ideas. He was an education director, ran their education in Colorado. He's got, you know, he's just great. He's really great. I thought that was really good. I think he's never going to be president. I feel like he's secretary of... [Blank.] Right. What about if Kamala is the nominee? Could he be a Veep? Yeah, he could be. He certainly could be.

Scott Galloway: I think that you would see her picking someone maybe like Mayor Pete, who I asked him directly if he was running for vice president. You know what I mean? That's what it felt like to me. It was a question that just didn't pop out of my head, but I think about that a lot with him. He was great. He's, you know, as advertised, he's super smart. He's adorkable. He has paragraph answers for everything. He thinks very fast on his feet. Yeah, Mayor Pete. Michael Bennett seems like a kind of a cool real dude that you would know like your dad or your uncle, a really good uncle kind of thing. And Pete Buttigieg feels a little bit more sort of baked. And I used a quote that was used about him, that idea that if you had to build a candidate, an anti-Trump candidate, this is what you'd build essentially. And I could see that. He pushed back on that concept. He's got the military. He's got gay but not too gay. And that was, of course, a controversy on the internet this week, too. He's just like he's sort of a very calm character. Someone referred to him as a non-carbonated gay. And then there was that awful article in—what was it? The New Republic? Yeah. That was terrible. That was really rough. I read that. He buried in that terrible article. There were some really good points about how it feels like a cooked candidate. Anyway, it was interesting. I really enjoyed talking to him. And he certainly—he had just done the Douglas Plan, which was dealing with issues around African-Americans in this country. And then he talked a little bit about tech. I got the sense that he didn't quite—he's got some smart ideas on it, but he's sort of very middle of the road on the tech stuff. And then he sort of popped up with this idea that he liked the right to be forgotten, which I found fascinating. And you pushed back on that. Yeah, because I don't think he knew what he was— I think he was referring to data ownership. But he was using the right to be forgotten, which of course would be impossible to implement in this country because of the First Amendment. But, you know, I think he's very quick study and I think he understands the issues. I don't think tech is one of his biggest issues. Again, middle of the road with breaking them up, middle of the road with, you know, he's a centrist candidate it seems like. And I enjoyed the interview and he certainly has enormous amounts of fans. And we went back and forth. I think I pushed him more than most people do.

Kara Swisher: Andrew Yang. What about Yang? Sorry? Tyler's Andrew Yang. Yang, Yang. Yang gang. Hashtag Yang gang. I really enjoyed this interview. I thought he was—you know, I know there's issues around Venture for America and whether it was successful or not. And he's got a lot of like really crazy right-wing fans who he decries, by the way, who really like his idea around universal basic income. And we talked a lot about that. I think it's called the Freedom Dividend. Right. And very interesting, a smart guy who really does a good job in a more substantive discussion. I can't imagine—he even talked about being on the stage, how it's impossible to get his ideas out because they're so complicated and substantive. They're not complex; you could understand them. But anyway. I mean, we'll see. I don't think Andrew has much of a chance of making it. But here's the thing. He's injected into the public debate this notion of universal guaranteed income. I don't like it, but it's an important issue because this notion of trying to figure out an expeditious way to kind of level up Americans who are struggling. And that's how I think of universal guaranteed income, although I don't like the idea of any way discouraging work, if you will. But he's injected it into the bloodstream. I think you should listen to this podcast because I think he has a concept around it that is, you know, it frees people to try to become entrepreneurial by taking burdens off of them. Because they have enough to pay basic rent. They can take more risks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting—I'm not—like you, I'm a little bit dubious about it. But he was making some very good arguments about who removes people from welfare. It takes away other costs if people can create jobs. One of his best examples, I think, is—he reminded me of you in a lot of ways. Oddly enough, Andrew. Really? Go on. Yes. Go on. Yes. He pushed back on me a lot. I was like, listen, dude, you're supposed to be subservient to my needs here in this interview. Now you're talking my language. Now you're talking my language. When I was pushing back on Universal Basic Income, he said, you know, when companies give out dividends to people, stop touching. Scott is in our podcast booth and he's touching the sides of the room. Oh, my God. You can see me? That's noise canceling. What is this, a Facebook pivot camera? What else have you seen? Oh, my God. But that is so scary that you can see me right now. Anyways, go ahead. All right. So he was saying like when companies give shareholders money back as dividends, nobody asks how they're going to spend it. And he feels like it'll put money all over the country that can be spent anyway. And we shouldn't question how it's spent. We should just say it's being spent. And so it creates an economic boom in places that don't have money and stuff. Anyway, he's an interesting guy. Well, he's captured the imagination of a lot of your cohorts out there in Silicon Valley. He's raised a ton of money. Yeah, he has. The only thing I said is I'm a Silicon Valley reporter for many, many years. I've never met you. So I don't know how you're the Silicon Valley candidate. Oh, because he's not an entrepreneur. He is an entrepreneur. But anyway, he was great. I was really impressed. We ended up having some dinner afterwards. And I really—he's got a lot of super fans too, which I think is interesting. So when does the little dog get to go to the big dog park? When do I get to interview one of these candidates? When do you invite me? Who do you want to do? Elizabeth Warren with me? Come on. She's so smart I'm scared of her. Maybe you're scared of her. She's tall. I think Biden. She could kick the shit out of you, obviously. I feel more comfortable with an old white guy. Okay. All right. If I get Biden, you're coming. How about that? I'm in. I'm in with Joe. All right. I miss the good ones. Name another person you'd like to interview. You sit here and complain and then you don't have any options. I think they're all pretty good. Bernie would be really interesting. I like all of them. Oh, Bernie and you and me. That would be good. Right? The Berns. Kara. Let's fill the Bern. Okay. We'll try to get Bern for you. We're in. Okay? But you're scared of Elizabeth Warren. Noted. Noted. Anyways, they're all really good. And the bar is so low. And speaking of bar being low. Yep. Trump this week, the tweet. As I predicted in the New York Times that he would be using Twitter to do things like this. And then he turned around and made me look like a genius here. So what do you think of this tweet? You know what he said. Go back to your own country, whatever. I'm just shocked that we're shocked that we find out the president is a racist and also I think more disappointing. So Michelle Wolf, the comedian who's kind of my favorite kind of comedian in the world right now, had this really interesting analogy. And that is that you thought you heard mom was an alcoholic back in the 60s. And then you're at spring recital and a purse accidentally slips open and outbursts 40 mini bottles of Jack Daniels. And you're like, oh, shit, mom's still an alcoholic. I feel as if we're all coming to grips with the fact that the United States is still pretty racist. And we keep waiting for his supporters and a bunch of his constituents to come out and be outraged. And so we pass these dumb resolutions centering him or trying to shame him. And what do you know? It's along party lines. And the reality, it's early 40s when you and my parents were alive. We had government officials show up to a dentist's office in Los Angeles and say, hey, we need you to sell your practice for 10 cents on the dollar and then show up to this camp with your family behind barbed wire. And their crime for that was they were Japanese. And that wasn't that long ago. You know, we've institutionalized racism with our economic policies, with our three strikes you're out from candidates who are supposedly liberal, Clinton. So the notion that we're shocked that somehow a president who's overtly racist as opposed to kind of quietly racist is in the White House, I'm just shocked we're so shocked. And this resolution condemning him that goes along party lines says absolutely nothing but distract us from the real issues we need to be discussing. So, yes, he's a racist. Get over it. Now get on to telling people of color and everyone else how we're going to economically empower them, which is the key to getting rid of this racist bullshit because we're a tribal species and people always find reasons to hate each other. What you got to do is economically empower people. Anyway. You're right. It's overt. Everything he does is overt. I mean, of course, Eric Trump, the village idiot today, was like 95 percent of people agree with him. I don't think that is the case in any way. I do think there's a deep vein of racism that has never left. But put a percentage on it. I have a percentage. What do you think it is? What do you think—what percentage of people do you think are likely exhibit when their actions and their behaviors are somewhat fundamentally racist? What percentage do you think it is? It's not 95%. In the U.S., what would you say it is? I think it's like 20 and then there's another 30 that are like, oh, he has a point. You know, quietly, oh, he has a point kind of thing or maybe 30. My mother loves Fox and so I didn't talk to her for days because I didn't want to hear her insult the squad. I just didn't want to listen to her. And when I got her on the phone and she goes, I'm so sick of this. I'm like, oh, here it comes. And she goes, Trump and his cronies are just the worst. And she never does that. Like, she's like, I'm so sick of this. Like, it was really interesting. So I do think most people don't, like, get out of this country. I don't think anybody likes that anymore. I think most people are like, what? Like, everybody's from somewhere else. So there's certain parts of it, I think, that do appeal to people. And then there's others that are like, that's just crazy. What I think of this whole thing is, as I think I tweeted this, He was accused of rape. He lost the census citizen question. And he apparently hard parties with a pedophile and he needed something. It's like, what can I do to get the focus off this? What is the craziest thing? So I think he's message testing 2020. I think that's well clear. And so we did this. And that's that's what we're talking about. And there here we are. What about Peter Thiel going after Google? All right. We'll move on to Peter Thiel from Peter Thiel's situation. Honestly, this guy, this guy, he suddenly crawls out of his troll hole, by the way. He's been quiet for a while. If you've noticed, he's been super quiet. And, you know, here he is, board member of Facebook, someone involved with Palantir and all kinds of things that have been problematic going after Google this way. The only way I look at it is that Palantir wants government contracts that they're competing with Google on, and he wants to FUD up the situation. That's the only thing I can say. And, of course, he goes to his friend Tucker Carlson who would just eat it up with a spoon. That's how I look at it. Yeah. Peter Thiel saying that he's worried about Google being co-opted by the Chinese and that this is near treasonous. A board member of Facebook saying that is literally similar to Jeffrey Epstein saying it's disturbed by the documentary on Michael Jackson. It's just, okay, boss. That's exactly it. You're just not really in a position of moral authority to be criticizing other big tech. I just, you got to, it's just incredible that he would, I would imagine the other Facebook board members are giving him the same advice that Albert Brooks gave William Hurd in Broadcast News when he said, what do you do when your reality exceeds your wildest imagination? Albert Brooks says, keep it to yourself. This guy should keep those thoughts to himself. They won't do anything because they didn't do anything during the Gawker thing. I had, I forget, it was Cheryl or Mark on stage asking about when Peter went after Gawker secretly. And I had the problem with, he's a board member of a company that's trying really hard to help publishers or say they are, and then there's board members secretly suing one out of business. And they're like, well, Peter does what he wants. It has nothing to do with Facebook. That's usually their position on Peter Thiel, it seems like. He can do what he wants separately. It's nothing separate with Peter Thiel. Yeah, he's a unique individual. It's very hard to put your finger on him. I loved his book, Zero to One. But yeah, he's an odd duck. There's just no getting around it. I don't see how that calculus pays off for Facebook or for him. All I could think of was what agenda is going— which of the many agendas that Peter Thiel was happening here? There are so many to choose from and they're all nefarious in some fashion. And I was like, which one? Why now? Why does he suddenly get loud when he was quiet before? What's his move? And he's so— talk about a chess player. I don't even think I can figure out what his grand move is. And I think you'll see more of him as the election goes forward. But it's interesting that he just pops up. I was like, whoa, hi. You again. It. Like, you know, they're making it to another version of it. That's what I feel like the clown. It's the guy with the hockey mask and the chainsaw. Wait, we weren't expecting you back. So you are. And then the last thing, did you see the testimony? Is his name David Marcus, the guy who's head of Libra or Calibra? He's a lovely guy. Oh, you like him? He's nice. He's a nice guy. Yeah. But he claims that his argument has gone to this nationalist argument that, well, if we don't do it, a foreign company is going to do this. It's like, well, yeah. From what I understand, there's other American companies. I mean, JP Morgan or Amazon could do this. And it's so funny. This is Libra. He's running Facebook's Libra. Yeah, he's running Libra. By the way, for all of you, supposedly a lot of people in Silicon Valley listen to our podcast, if you're working for Libra, you are literally heading to work this morning to waste your life. It's as if—like the only thing I could think of to better waste your efforts and finite time on this planet is to transfer into the pivot camera division. There is absolutely no way any government is going to allow Facebook, who brought the weaponization of our elections and teen depression, control of our economy. It's just—incredibly impressive that they would delude themselves into thinking this thing is going to go anywhere. So high Facebook execs heading up whatever it is that horrible highway with no cell phone coverage today just doesn't count for you 280 280 Yeah To nowhere That the highway To nowhere All right But speaking of Facebook the fine that came you know I visited I was at the FTC last week but I figured this was coming down The fine that we got was exactly the slap on the wrist and it looks like they didn't even have to do much for it. So thoughts? Scott Galloway, I'd like to hear a rant because you did that at this book party. You did a nice rant and scared— by the way, I've gotten more reports that you terrified all the Washington people and thrilled them at the same time. I like it. So look, this seriously was almost perfect. And all we were missing from this being restoring faith in our government from the public, creating a series of incentives and disincentives around the algebra of deterrence to create better behavior. The only thing that was missing here was simple. What was missing was nothing. Specifically, what was missing, Kara, was a zero. And that is if the fine had been $50 billion versus $5 billion. Facebook has $40 billion on cash. In cash, they would have been able to pay it, but they would have had to issue debt. The stock would have gone from $205 to $80. Mark Zuckerberg's wealth would have been cut from $60 billion to $25 billion. And trust me on this, within 90 days, they would have figured out 80% of these problems. Because it's one thing for them to be shamed. They don't give a shit. It's one thing for them to be called in front of Congress. They send their high-priced lawyers. It's another thing for their wealth to be cut by two-thirds. They would have figured this shit out. So this was almost perfect, almost perfect, minus a zero. The $50 billion fine could have happened. Well, you know what? The world is what we make of it. These fines used to be tens or hundreds of millions. Now they're in the billions. And one of our predictions was that you're going to see a $10 billion plus fine out of the EU, which seemed crazy two years ago. And it's about to happen. And who is it going to happen against? It's going to happen against Amazon. We're going to see our first $10 billion plus fine, Q4 or Q1 of next year from our ultimate gangster, Margaret, next. Let's get to that in portions next. I agree with you, Scott. I was like, of course, this is what they got. And it actually tells them to break the law again. Exactly. That's the price of it. And that's going to be a problem because they should be brought to bear. Stock was up the day it was announced. All right. We'll do wins and fails and predictions right after the break.

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**Continued Main Content:**

Kara Swisher: We're back and I'm here with Scott Galloway. All right, we're gonna do wins and fails now. Scott, what is your win this week?

Scott Galloway: So my win is Rep Ayanna Pressley and her tweet responding to the president's comments, attacking her and other Congresswomen of color. She said, and I quote, I encourage the American people and all of us not to take the bait. This is a disruptive distraction from the issues of care, concern, and consequence. And I think she's exactly right. I think that the Democrats, if they're going to take back the White House, the outrage and the indignance at the president isn't going to get them the White House. It's going to be, all right, what do we do to solve some of the problems of our own making, of his making? But all right, enough already. Yeah, fine. Clap back. When you say, tell me to go home, that means I go home to Michigan or wherever. Show how stupid it is. And then move on and start focusing. Start playing offense as opposed to defense. And I think she gets it. So my win is Representative Presley. Who's your win?

Kara Swisher: My win, I got to say this week, one thing, this was such a bad week of Twitter and news and everything else. It was just the worst. And then Monica Lewinsky did a tweet that made me so happy. I couldn't stand it. Someone, I think it was Adam Grant, you know, the handsome Adam Grant. Yeah, the better version of me. Best of you in so many ways. He said, what career advice did someone give you that was a mistake? And Monica Lewinsky replied that working at the White House would look good on my resume. Working at the summer intern at the White House would look good on my resume. And she just left and she just dropped it like that and moved along. And I thought I really love Monica Lewinsky. I think she's probably the most classy woman in America, given all the shit that's been rained down on her. And I just thought that was just fantastic. No, that's good stuff. That's good stuff. That's a nice win. And your fail?

Scott Galloway: My fail? Oh, God, so many fails. So many. You know, again, Twitter and letting this happen go on and on. But probably, you know, how little we've heard from the tech companies with this ongoing weaponization of these platforms. You know, they seem to have been trying to stay out of the way. And I want them to step up more. They're not going to. And I sit there and wait for them to do so, you know, in that regard. And then on a minor fail, that New Republic piece about Pete Buttigieg. I do see—I think the failure wasn't so much the writer because he is what he is. His book was called Hatchet Jobs. So you know what you're going to get from him. But it was a failure on the editors of the New Republic to put it up and then take it down. Like, why did they put it up? Why didn't they edit it? There's all kinds of things going on. So I thought that was the fail for me this week to watch that. And in this day and age when so many things are so twitchy and quick not to understand how that would be done, I just don't even understand where that editing failure happened. I like it. Okay. So my fail starts with a question, Cara. I'm an investor in several private companies, and let's say one of them just went crazy and was Google, and overnight I was a billionaire. So as a 54-year-old white heterosexual billionaire, does that mean I'm obligated to run for president or qualified in your view? No, Tom Steyer, you're not. There you go. So my loss this week is Tom Steyer, who's running for president for no other fucking reason than he's in his 50s, white, and a billionaire. His entire rap is reheated Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren where he blames corporations for co-opting the government. No, boss. Corporations are inanimate legal entities. It's rich people as yourself that have probably co-opted Washington. Literally absolutely nothing to add to the debate. But you know what? These guys, if they're Commonwealth, if they're interested in the Commonwealth, this is literally the full employment act for local TV stations and political consultants. who says he's going to spend $100 million taking oxygen away from other people who actually know how to govern. He and Howard Schultz should get in a room and say, okay, tell you what, you're white. You're a billionaire. I know you should run for president. No, you should run for president. No, you should run for president. And then they should blow each other and go home. And they should take that quarter of a billion dollars that they're going to spend on media, and they should do something that actually helps the world. They should spend it on voter registration. They should take a quarter of a billion dollars and give it to Planned Parenthood if they're really interested in the advancement of women and people of color. But the notion that literally like, well, I'm white and I'm a billionaire. So that's my calling to be president. It just seems ridiculous. It's like, who told them this? That's my, my feels Tom Steyer. I feel that's a good one. And really, we're gonna, I think he should take the money and do something else with it. I agree with you. And he can do whatever he wants with his money, but you're right. It's just sort of like, why now? I think they feel that maybe there's a point to get in here. Like this is the point to get in. If they have something different to say. I feel so much better, right? Bloomberg did it, you'd be happy. Howard Schultz, my sense is he's a great guy. What is different about what he said? What is different? If they had a message, fine. What is different about their message that not already being said by people who have governed All right but I just going to contrast If Bloomberg said he was jumping in how would you feel He spent 12 years running the 11th largest nation in the world with huge success He qualified. He's qualified. Okay. All right. All right. I agree with you. I'm with you on this one. All right. Predictions. So you made a little one before. You made a tiny little prediction before. But let me ask you one. And one of the things is Lion King from Disney, you love yourself some Bob Iger, as you discussed last week or the week before. Pre-release reviews are bad. It looks kind of creepy. It definitely does. But Aladdin live action made $332 million domestically so far and it had mixed reviews too. What is your prediction, Mr. Media? Doesn't matter. Everyone's going to see it. Anyone with kids is going to go see anything that says Disney on it. And if you don't see it in the theaters, you're going to see it at home. And your kids immediately—just look at the way your kids respond to the graphics and the coloring and the visual identity that connotes Disney or Pixar, it means that you watch it. It could get zero stars or 0% on Rotten Tomatoes. And at some point, they're going to monetize it because their brand is so consistently, stands for outstanding quality, you know, a real genuine concern about the well-being of children in terms of not weaponizing their platform. Have you ever been to Disneyland? Yes. I was forced there by Bob Iger. He made me go. He wouldn't come to code until I went. and then they filmed me there as a hostage video. I feel like that was what he literally had a film crew of me getting on all the rides. And every time I turned around, there was a film crew there writing. And I said, like, help, help me. Let me out. I was doing it with my eyes and stuff like that. And then I called it the unhappiest place on earth to him. We go back and forth. I went on a Disney cruise, too. He forced me on one of those, too. What did you think of the Disney cruise? Great. That was great. It was constant soft serve ice cream. I don't know what else to say. It was so clean and so well done. One of that weird island they made is a little creepy. But otherwise, it was a flawless. That was a flawless experience with children, I must say. That's one of the many ways I can tell I'm getting older. The idea of a cruise doesn't sound horrific to me anymore. I hate cruises. Wake up in a different city. Yeah. So, look, I don't think it matters back to Disney. They get so many do-overs or foul balls because they're just so outstanding. And kids, you know, we all go see almost everything. So anything from a credible organization like Disney and kids, they're going to monetize the heck out of it. Yeah, you like the Disney. You live down near the Disney, right? You're kind of near. Yeah, I live near Disney. But my favorite is next to Disney. It's Harry Potter World. That's incredible. That's the best of its kind. It's incredible. And I don't even like the genre. I'm sorry. I was forced into that too. Anyway, any other predictions? Well, revisiting a prediction, I don't know if it was six or nine months ago. But we said when Facebook was at $150 that despite all the controversy, the stock was going to be at $250. And the moment I said that, it dove to $130. And now it's back at $205 and I'm doubling down. I think the stock goes to—continues—is up another 20 percent by the end of the year. Because if you look at the business and occasionally I check in and I try and use their tools from the lens of an advertiser. And it's just staggering how incredibly strong it is. And if you've seen another prediction revisiting, we said that the day that all the big tech stocks declined and lost the value of Airbus, that they were going to gain back the value of Boeing. And I don't know if you've noticed, but in the last two and a half weeks, they've more than gained back the value of Boeing. Their stocks have ripped up to near highs again. Yeah, all of them. Yeah, Amazon's above a trillion dollars. So I'm just doubling back down to that prediction that Facebook's going to touch 250. What about Google? I don't know about Google. Relative to the others, Google actually probably looks the cheapest because it hasn't had the run-up of the others. But I don't feel as if I understand the business well enough to make a prediction. Any others? Breakout? Uber? Any of the others you think are going to break out? Well, no. You know my view on Uber and Lyft. But no, I think the stock that is going to continue