Primary Results, An Abortion Win in Kansas, and Pelosi’s Taiwan Trip

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Kara Swisher: Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher, and Scott Free August continues. So today, my co-host is political strategist, author of *Any Given Tuesday*, and Democratic Insider Liz Smith. Welcome, Liz.

Lis Smith: Well, thank you so much for having me. And for your regular listeners, I want to assure them that even though it's Scott-Free August, it is not dick joke-free August.

Kara Swisher: Oh, fantastic.

Lis Smith: Because I am a big connoisseur.

Kara Swisher: Oh, okay.

Lis Smith: And a big user of dick jokes.

Kara Swisher: Okay, wow.

Lis Smith: Any sort of dick joke, I got it in the repertoire.

Kara Swisher: All right, you've got them ready. There's so many dicks around this week, so that's just perfect. We're going to get to know you a little bit in everything that you've done. Today, the votes are in and on the ballot: the future of the Republican Party and the right to an abortion. Also, we'll hear from a listener with a question about the Supreme Court. We're going to do heavy politics today because Liz has a long history in politics. She's been a—what would you, how would you describe yourself, Liz? What is your way you would say, "This is me"?

Lis Smith: I would just say I'm a political operative that has worked at every level of the game, every level of the business, in red states and blue, from state Senate candidates up to presidential candidates.

Kara Swisher: Right, and I like to use the term "operative" because a lot of people try to get away from that idea. Like they say "strategist," or I just called you a strategist. But I like the idea that you're a political operative. So you're sort of the behind-the-scenes people that run campaigns and things like that.

Lis Smith: Yeah. And I think one thing I tried to do in my book as well is I don't try to sugarcoat things or glamorize things or sanitize things. I'm a straight-up political operative.

Kara Swisher: Right, right. And your most famous client, of course, to date has been Pete Buttigieg, who is now the Secretary of Transportation. But Mayor Pete ran for president and did pretty well. You really put him on the map in lots of ways. And he put himself on the map, obviously. And I guess I put him on the Code lineup for September.

Lis Smith: You did.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, he's coming in. He's coming into Code. Thank you for doing an ad for Code.

Lis Smith: Yeah, we're very excited. It's a really great list. And we're excited talking about infrastructure and transportation. And he's such a geek. He's going to wonk out with us, I think, which will be great.

Kara Swisher: You're the only person I've ever heard say that you're excited to talk about infrastructure.

Lis Smith: Yeah, I am. I'm really excited. I'm very excited because that's his thing, right? He's got all this money to spend over the next couple of years. And during the campaign, I can't tell you, I would always roll my eyes when he would talk about smart sewers and things like that. Like, he's so passionate about it. I'd be like, "Pete, no one cares about smart sewers." And now, yeah, they do. Everybody does. And he got the perfect job and he's the perfect salesman for it because you never think that Secretary of Transportation is a particularly glamorous job. But to have someone who thinks transportation is the sexiest thing in the world is great. And he's going to sell the heck out of it.

Kara Swisher: So let me ask you a question about that campaign. What do you think is the most interesting thing in your book? Or surprising? People will be surprised about?

Lis Smith: Okay, so the title is *Any Given Tuesday*, which is a spinoff of the saying "Any Given Sunday," which is about professional football. And I write a lot in my book about my love for professional football and how it was fostered by my dad, who I also write a lot about in my book. The idea behind "Any Given Sunday" is that the worst team in the league can walk out on the field and beat the best team. The best team can lose to the worst team. And it's not those wins or losses that define you. What defines you is, do you pick yourself up off the turf and go to the next Sunday? And it involves an element of belief to go Sunday after Sunday after Sunday, get your body beaten in, and not let the wins go too much to your head, not let the losses beat you down too much. And politics is similar. As I go through in my book, *Any Given Tuesday*, there are a lot of losses and there are a lot of wins. If you let the wins go to your head, that's not a good thing. If you let the losses beat you down, that's not a good thing. Ultimately, it involves an element of belief to be able to go election to election, and stamina. Stamina is a physical thing. The belief is an important thing. For me, I'm sort of comparing it to the game of football, but politics isn't a game to me. It's something that's so important, but it does involve an element of belief to be able to keep going year after year after year.

Kara Swisher: Were you surprised about how popular Mayor Pete got from almost nowhere? Barack Obama was very similar. He wasn't that well known, and then he was. Was that a big surprise to you? How quickly people became attracted to him as a candidate? And I remember early on, you were a bit of a Pete skeptic.

Lis Smith: I was.

Kara Swisher: You were a bit of a Pete skeptic.

Lis Smith: I was. At least men. Anyway, sorry. I like the ladies, if you don't mind.

Kara Swisher: Well, I know. I'm aware of that, as all your listeners are. Not for dating. For—I want a woman president. I really, really want a woman president. I really do. I would like that to happen at some point.

Lis Smith: I know, and so do I. And we can talk more about that one later. But with Mayor Pete, was I surprised? No and yes. No, because I had worked for so many people before him. The first time I sat down with him, five feet away, and I did media prep with him, he was a mayor of a town of a hundred thousand people. He's about to sit down with *Wall Street Journal*, *New York Times*, BuzzFeed, all this. I'm expecting him to be this wide-eyed, naive guy. "What did I get into?" And he wasn't. He was so poised, so comfortable in his own skin. He knew who he was. He knew what his values were. And he articulated them in a way that I just didn't hear other Democrats articulating. There was also another thing about him. You remember that time? I met him in December 2016. That was when Democrats were all reeling from the Trump victory and thinking, "Okay, to beat Trump, we have to be the loudest voices in the room. We have to yell, we have to scream, we have to demonize everyone." And Pete was total counter-programming to that. His tone was very quiet in how he spoke, but he wasn't into demonizing other people.

Kara Swisher: He was about—

Lis Smith: His whole campaign was about belonging, bringing people into the process, and also saying to Republicans that your vote in the last election doesn't define you. "I want you in my tent." At a time when a lot of people were saying every Trump voter is a racist, misogynist, sexist, whatever you want to apply to them. So to me, it stood out not because of the decibel, but because of how different he sounded. So it didn't surprise me because I knew it would cut through. But what I didn't expect was for that one CNN town hall in March of 2019 to take him from 1% in Iowa—and the 1% was probably just like a mistake—to two weeks later being third in Iowa only after Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders. Our campaign manager, Mike Schmuel, described it as warping political time. It's like he skipped eight steps of running for president. When I had gone to work for Pete, people thought I was insane. One of my friends turned to me and was like, "Did you lose a bet or something?" It was like Kellyanne Conway going with Trump. Everyone thought that was kind of ridiculous too. But Trump was at 100% name ID. And I would go to family events like Thanksgiving. I remember my cousin was like, "So who are you going to work for after Pete drops out of the race?" And I was like, "He's not going to drop out of the race." So it was unpredictable.

Kara Swisher: It's a really interesting thing to write about. There's a lot of political books out. But right now, I'm going to tap you for your political expertise. There's a whole bunch of stuff going on this week. You're the perfect guest for this week. First of all, China is cracking down on Taiwan after Nancy Pelosi's trip to the island. Very political trip. Some people think she was tough, and that was the right thing to be. This week, she met with Taiwan's tech leaders, including the head of chip-making giant TSMC. They discussed the recently passed CHIPS Act and the company's investment in the United States, including Arizona. China was none too pleased with the visit and imposed fresh sanctions on Taiwanese exports. How important was it? I think a lot of people felt it was important for her to stand up to the bullying of China, really, pretty much.

Lis Smith: Yeah, and from a political perspective, it's fascinating. I got to tell you, I'm a pretty hardened, jaded person, but I got goosebumps when I saw the videos of her jet landing in Taiwan and the thousands of people standing out on the streets cheering her. It reminded me when John McCain went to Ukraine and rallied the same sentiment. I understand that there are people who think that what she did was rash and that what she did is provocative with the Chinese government. When Republicans go there, they don't see it as a statement of the White House's policy under Joe Biden. When she goes there, the Chinese government sees it as, "Okay, Joe Biden obviously must have signed off on this. This is them trying to provoke us." I get the pragmatist view on this. I am oftentimes on campaigns at odds with foreign policy advisors because foreign policy advisors and lawyers are not as conservative as I am in terms of what we do, what we say. But it is really important for the US to be that beacon of hope and freedom across the world. Especially for Taiwan, especially with semiconductors, which have been one of the issues—the lack of semiconductors and the need for them and the construction of them in this country.

Kara Swisher: Right. This has become a big political football.

Lis Smith: And that is a very important economic issue for our country, their country. But there is a bigger thing to me here, which is that under Donald Trump, I do feel like the U.S. sort of faded on the global stage. I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate to quote Ronald Reagan positively. But he did talk about the U.S. being that shining city on a hill. It is a speech that I love, even though I don't love basically anything else about Ronald Reagan. What her visit to Taiwan evoked to me was that image of the United States of America as the shining city on the hill. Her going to this tiny country of 23 million people that is a critical island, a hundred miles off the coast of a country of over one billion people that is one of the greatest military forces—I don't know. I felt good about it. I think it was the right thing to do. I understand the criticisms of it, but it gives me a lot of hope that people across the world, maybe not people in China because the media is heavily centered there, but that people across the world will see that image once again of America being a beacon for hope and democracy and freedom.

Kara Swisher: It's very important that we have really good relationships around chips, because America's national security is dependent on chips and other things. That's why the CHIPS Act passed. I think it's really important that we show solidarity with Taiwan in lots of ways to create these companies that are building even in the United States, these kinds of facilities that they want to.

[Discussion continues...]

Kara Swisher: Moving on, Twitter is going all in on Elon Musk. This week, it subpoenaed some of his closest associates, including Mark Andreessen and Jason Calacanis, who I know, both of whom I know very well, who are involved in financing parts of the deal. Among other things, a subpoena requests communications about spams and bots. I'd love to get your take. How do political people feel about where this Elon Musk purchase of Twitter is? It's been so important to politics.

Lis Smith: Well, it looks like he's not buying it now, but it was very much obviously the hot topic among politicos and brought out a lot of strong emotions in people. I have an unpopular take on this. I don't really care if Elon Musk buys Twitter or not. I didn't think it would fundamentally change things. I also don't get the knee-jerk, reflexive hate for him. Geniuses and these guys who do these big things, whether it's him or Steve Jobs or whoever it is, they all tend to be a little weird and a little abrasive and not the most likable people, not the most sociable of people. But I just don't get the hate for him. I didn't think it was fundamentally going to change the platform. He says things that really anger the whole right-wing thing that he suddenly was, and he baits people. I don't honestly care. It's kind of juvenile.

Kara Swisher: He's a troll, right?

Lis Smith: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: He's a troll.

Lis Smith: Yeah. I agree. It's juvenile. But do I think he is a great threat to America if he buys Twitter? Do I think he's a great threat to anything if he buys Twitter? No. Twitter's still going to be the same. 90% of the people who said that they were going to leave Twitter if he bought it would have still stayed on because Twitter's like a drug to people.

Kara Swisher: That's right. That's right. And I think this—do you think this right-wing shift is real?

Lis Smith: I just think he's just playing to the cheap seats. That's my feeling.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. I agree with that.

Lis Smith: But you and I both know this dynamic. With people, if you demonize them over and over and over again, you push them into a corner and make them feel unwelcome. We've seen that with a lot of public figures, and that might be happening now. But give it a week. The guy seems like he's a little tempestuous, a little petulant. So I could see him in a week turning back. But one thing I did not like about Democrats' stance—not all Democrats, but some of the left's stance on this—is that he very much talked about free speech. Free speech somehow on the left has sort of become like a dirty word, a dirty term. You even see organizations like the ACLU standing down from free speech, actually trying to suppress free speech. I don't think that's a position we should try to take.

Kara Swisher: Well, you have to balance it against that. I think when you want to be intelligent about it, you have to balance against the sort of sloppiness and damage that some of—like right now the Alex Jones trial is happening. If you read it, the kind of lies he told about these dead kids had a direct effect on these families, a dangerous effect. There is free speech, and then there's, are you controlling? Are you just letting anything go on anything? I think that's the difficult part, because government certainly can't get involved. Government can't impose themselves in any way. I think it's a push-pull thing of responsibility in some cases around something like a figure like Alex Jones. It's not an easy thing, and people try to make it reductive. That's my issue with it. It's not reductive, and it can't be reduced. It's complex, and there are no good answers.

Lis Smith: Very much like, by the way, the Biden administration not mentioning Elon Musk when he's talking about electric cars. I find that to be perplexing. This is the guy who pushed it forward. I don't even get it.

Kara Swisher: I'm going to ask Secretary Buttigieg about this. Why do you ignore him? He is the major figure. It's like ignoring Steve Jobs if you're talking about graphical user interface and the computer revolution. It's almost impossible to leave him out of it.

Lis Smith: I know Pete has faced some criticism over it. I can't remember his answer exactly. Again, I am not an infrastructure, transportation wonk. But there was some reason that Pete cited that they're slightly different from some of the other EVs. But grill him, grill him to hell.

Kara Swisher: I'm going to grill him to hell. I'm going to tell him you said so. I'm going to say, "You gave me permission."

Lis Smith: All right.

Kara Swisher: Last thing, the Taliban faces a backlash from Afghans after a U.S. drone strike killed an Al-Qaeda leader in Kabul this week. The attack could strengthen the position of hardliners who want the Taliban to retaliate for the strike. Biden looks great in terms of killing this guy without killing his family. While having COVID, he used the word "war on terror" in his speech announcing the drone strike. What are the political implications of this drone strike, of this very dangerous leader?

Lis Smith: I have a lot of feelings about this. My dad had worked in the World Trade Center from the day it was built to the day it went down. I remember the night, and he led his firm in the aftermath of it. He wasn't there that day—he was actually on a flight—but he suffered awful PTSD from it because he felt personally responsible that he had kept his firm in the building after the 1993 bombing. So there's a very personal element to me. I got emotional when they got Bin Laden and when they got Zawahiri the same way. I felt very emotional. But there are two things I think that matter politically here. There had been this narrative out there about Joe Biden that he was weak, that he was ineffective, that he couldn't get things done. You could almost tell watching his speech that night that there was a new sort of swagger to him that we hadn't seen in a while.

Kara Swisher: The aviator swagger. The Kara Swisher swagger, I like to call it. I didn't drone kill anybody this week. Maybe next week. I don't know.

Lis Smith: There's that. And the fact that we had been hunting this guy for 20 years, and finally, it's Joe Biden that gets him. As tough as Trump likes to portray himself, he didn't get him. When you listen to the recountings of his briefings, he would always sort of gloss over Zawahiri and go to other names that he recognized. I don't know why that was. So one thing, because I think it does counteract the image of Biden as weak. But two, if you talk to any Democratic campaign across the country, they would tell you that when the numbers changed for Democrats, there was one moment when everything changed. It was during the chaos of the Afghanistan withdrawal. When I say every campaign, I'm telling you that I talked to county executive campaigns on Long Island that said that week was when their numbers started to go down, because Joe Biden was elected to bring back normalcy, to end the chaos of the Trump era. And then on TV, you're just seeing chaotic scene after chaotic scene after chaotic scene from the withdrawal. There was this view that if we withdraw from Afghanistan, we are essentially ceding it to the terrorists. It's going to be a huge national security threat, blah, blah, blah. And yet, there we are. We withdrew all our troops as the American people wanted, as Joe Biden promised, and still took out their number two. So that, I think, helps blunt some of the criticisms of Joe Biden that were out there on the Afghanistan withdrawal and its long-term implications for our foreign policy and our counterterrorism efforts. I think right now Biden's in a stronger place with this, this and some of the bills they've passed.

Kara Swisher: And we're going to get to that because we just had an election that was super interesting and very mixed bag. So let's get to our first big story. It's Trump's party and he'll lie if he wants to. Trump-backed candidates won primary races around the country this week, defeating more traditional Republicans. Among the winners, there was widespread support for Trump's claims about the 2020 election. And these are just the Republican candidates. It doesn't mean they're going to win the main election, particularly worrisome considering one is running for Secretary of State in Arizona. I'm curious what you think about these results. We're going to go through a bunch of them because there's a lot of mixed bag. Trump's pick for a senator in Missouri won easily, but that's because the former casino owner spread out his bets by voting for all the Erics. He didn't pick the original Eric he picked did not win. So I would love to get your take. Another one, a big primary winner, Republican John Gibbs, who seems unhinged slightly, unseated Representative Peter Meijer in Michigan. Meijer was a rare Republican who voted to impeach Trump, but Gibbs had the support of Democrats who spent more than $400,000 to boost his profile among conservative voters. Democrats are betting the far-right candidate will be easier to beat in the general election. They're also spending money to boost extremist candidates in Pennsylvania, Illinois, and Maryland. So I'd love to get your take on this particular, what happened here. Can we conclude the January 6th Committee isn't having the impact it wants, or is this just Arizona or around the country?

Lis Smith: I don't know what impact they expected, but I actually do think it's having an impact. An early indicator of that is the way that Fox News is treating Trump. My view on the ultimate way that January 6th is going to impact things is in the Republican elite circles. It's not going to move the true believers. It may move some of the people in the middle, some of the reasonable people who held their nose and voted for Donald Trump because they like tax cuts. I have friends like that, and I don't necessarily understand where they're coming from, but they're still my friends. I love them, and hopefully they'll make better choices in the future. But Fox News has completely tuned out Donald Trump. To me, that is reflective of an elite sort of view that it was okay to sort of play along with him for a while. But the portrait of him that has been portrayed in the January 6th hearings is beyond unhinged, beyond deranged. It is criminal and it is dangerous. The actions that he took in the lead-up to January 6th and the lack of action that he took on that day when members of Congress' lives, his vice president's life was at stake—they can't nominate this guy again. They just can't.

Kara Swisher: Well, they said that last time. They said he'd never do it, right?

Lis Smith: But what I'm wondering is what you think these results show. These are a lot of people who are at least mouthing publicly the Trump party line, which is the election was stolen, fake, fake, fake, whatever conspiracy theory. So what do these wins say to you? Is it just that they're nominating the crazies and they're going to lose in the general election?

Lis Smith: It says to me that the lunatics have taken over the asylum. As much as Republicans behind the scenes like to say that Trump isn't the Republican Party—sorry, you break it, you own it, and they own Trumpism. Trumpism is the Republican Party now. In state after state after state, whether it's Michigan, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Ohio, it's candidates who are parroting his lines and parroting his lies that are winning. But Kara, it's not only that. I know that Democrats have gotten some criticism in some of these gubernatorial races for running ads—let's use the example of Pennsylvania—running ads highlighting how Doug Mastriano was the most severely conservative of the candidates, opposed abortion with all exceptions, the biggest proponent of the big lie. He's someone who was at January 6th, bused supporters there, tried to invalidate the results in 2020. But it's not like Tom Ridge was in that primary. It's not like there are any moderates. It's not even like there was Ronald Reagan. The number two guy in that race was Lou Barletta, who was a fake elector for Trump. So in these gubernatorial races, there is no one who is willing to stand up and say—

Kara Swisher: Same thing in Missouri. The guy, the second Eric who won, who he wasn't backing first, is also a Trumper, even though he's not a Trumper with abuse allegations. So what does that mean? Having these very conservative conspiracy candidates on the right in those primary positions when they win, what does that do?

Lis Smith: Missouri is a lost cause. I don't know if you follow the Democratic primary at all, but we had this amazing candidate in Lucas Kunce. Charismatic, could reach out to Democrats, Republicans, everything. And instead, we voted in an Anheuser-Busch heiress who has the communication skills of Herschel Walker after 10 shots of Jack Daniels.

Kara Swisher: Okay, what do you really think, Liz?

Lis Smith: Look, I worked in Missouri. It pains me to say this about a Democrat, but you guys do not give any money. We're not winning that race. In Arizona, it's a different question. If Kari Lake wins, that's tough, because I feel a lot better about the Democratic candidates in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Michigan than I do in Arizona. But Arizona is a quirky state. We saw it go for Biden in 2020. Mark Kelly, who is the Senate candidate, is a really, really, really unique candidate. His background as an astronaut, obviously has been an amazingly supportive husband to Gabby Giffords, who went through so much tragedy with that, getting shot at a campaign event. He has been a leader on those issues, but also someone who's willing to buck the Democratic Party, willing to buck Biden, and has a brand of his own. So I could actually see the Senate race leading the ticket.

Kara Swisher: So what is—is that a good thing, to be running against these very Trumpy kind of people, because it's repugnant to the independents? That's showing in poll after poll after poll. They're being very affected by the January 6th hearings. I'm not talking about the base, but in putting these candidates up, is that a bad thing for the Republican Party and a good thing for Democrats? Or could these candidates get in anyway and then have real effects?

Lis Smith: There's always that risk. After 2016, I'm so nervous about making definite predictions about things. But there is a risk to it, but there's also a really important element to it. Trump isn't on the ballot now, but it's Trumpism, and it's almost Trumpism on steroids. Doug Mastriano, to me, is—

Kara Swisher: This is in Pennsylvania?

Lis Smith: Yeah, in Pennsylvania. Governor of Pennsylvania. He's running against Josh Shapiro. Josh Shapiro is an amazing candidate, a great communicator, someone who's been able to win in tough years. But now we actually get to have an election where Trumpism is on the ballot. Pure, uncut Trumpism without Donald Trump, without whatever his charismatic appeal is to his base. So does it win, or does it get crushed? My hope is that it gets crushed. My feeling is that in a lot of these states, it will get crushed. And if it does, it's a good thing for the Republican Party—frankly, I don't really care about the Republican Party—but it's a good thing for everyone to not have Donald Trump overhanging the situation.

Kara Swisher: It's interesting because I have relatives in Pennsylvania, and none of them want to—they're Republican, and they do not want to vote for Mastriano. They might even vote for Fetterman in the Senate race. They don't want Oz, Dr. Oz. They're like, "We may vote for Josh Shapiro." I can't believe it. I can't believe they're saying that because they're such Republicans, and they think they'll have a very hard time doing it, but we'll see. Can I ask you a question?

Kara Swisher: Because I know you speak a lot on this podcast about your family and them having relatively pretty conservative views. And some yes, so I'm that person. If I'm at a bar, I will focus group the shit out of—I'm allowed to cuss on here?

Lis Smith: Yes, go right ahead.

Kara Swisher: Okay. I haven't made a dick joke yet, but go ahead.

Lis Smith: You know, now there's so much pressure. I feel like you know, but I will make a dick joke. All right, okay.

Kara Swisher: At the end. And so tell me, why is it that the more conservative members of your family are turned off by Mastriano? Why are they turned off by Oz?

Lis Smith: He's from New Jersey. That bothers them.

Kara Swisher: Is that the number one thing?

Lis Smith: They say it a lot. And then they kind of like Fetterman. He's an appealing, likable character. I don't know if they'll vote for him. In the case of Mastriano, they think he's crazy. They think this guy's nuts. At the same time, I was at a wedding and my cousin who was gay is like, "Oh, Trump's not that anti-gay." And I was like, "What are you talking about?" The money and the tax breaks they liked better than anything else. And so if Democrats could sort of look like they're good to business, maybe that might work. I don't know. It'll be interesting to see when it comes down to the actual election and not the primary, which is trending rightward, if that's going to be appealing to the middle. I think it's a problem for these people to go to the—like Kari Lake can't go to the middle. She can't. She can't go to the middle.

Kara Swisher: The other woman can't. She can't.

Lis Smith: Oh, no. Neither can Doug, and neither can—a lot of these people can't go to the middle.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, we'll go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about a big win for abortion rights in Kansas and take a listener mail question that came in via Twitter for Liz.

[AD BREAK]

Kara Swisher: All right, Liz, we're back with our second big story. Abortion rights activists are celebrating after a historic win in Kansas, of all places. That's what everyone said, in that way. "Kansas, of all places." Voters in the sunflower state chose to protect the right to abortion by a margin of almost 20 points. The win is especially notable given there were no competitive Democratic races on the ballot. Abortion rights is a winning issue. Wasn't that always obvious? Pelosi and Chuck Schumer didn't even use the word "abortion" a couple of months ago after the draft decision leaked. What do we think about this situation here? Is it a surprise to you?

Lis Smith: It is a surprise to me.

Kara Swisher: Why is it?

Lis Smith: Because for so many years, for my entire lifetime, all of the energy on the choice or abortion issue—whatever you want to call it. I don't care if people use the term "abortion" or not. I just don't. I don't believe we need to language police people on that stuff. But for all of my lifetime, all of the energy has always been on the pro-life, anti-choice side. They got what they wanted. And for the first time, now they are feeling the wrath that we felt for so many years. And it is the wrath, not just of Democrats, but of the people that you and I just talked about—like our friends, our family members, whatever, who voted for Trump or voted for Republicans, held their nose because tax cuts and whatever. "No one's going to overturn the right to choose. Of course not." But that's just not the case anymore. And what I think was so smart about what they did in Kansas and their communications was that they made this an issue of freedom. They made this an issue of keeping the government out of people's lives. And even in a very red conservative state, it was a powerful message because we saw not only Democrats and independents, but Republicans come out to vote and say, "No, politicians should not be in the business of making healthcare decisions for women." So there are a lot of arguments you can make when it comes to abortion, right? But the most powerful one—and I've watched focus groups on this, I've seen polling on it—is not the most incendiary one. It's that politicians should not be in the business of making healthcare decisions for women. They should not be in that doctor's room. Because it gets to the heart of why a lot of Republicans are Republicans. They want smaller government. But could you imagine any bigger government than politicians in that room?

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I think it's interesting because it does work. One of the things—and the energy that exists still on the right is about stuff that's really creepy, which is a girl gets raped, a 14-year-old girl gets raped, and she has to keep the baby. You hear that now they're pushed to really extremes, which everyone's like, "Wait a second, you're taking away the right to an abortion and you're also doing crazy religious things that are not in my wheelhouse in any way." I think the energy they have is with extremists, and that's not a good look for them at all. But it was interesting that the language that worked there was freedom, talking about freedom.

Lis Smith: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: And it wasn't by talking about the 14-year-old or any of that. I pulled up some numbers from Kansas. In 2018, which was sort of seen as a high watermark for Democratic turnout, right? That's when everyone came out. Everyone and their mother came out to vote for Democrats in response to 2016. In 2018, 473,000 votes were cast in the primary. On Tuesday in Kansas, 940,000 votes were cast. And it is just shy of the 1 million people who turned out to vote in the 2018 general election. And if you look at county after county, the Democratic counties, especially, and the Republican counties, the turnout was massive. But what we saw was it wasn't just Democrats who were voting to protect this constitutional right in Kansas. It was Republicans as well. And that should send fear down the spines of every Republican elected official in the country. And keep in mind, Kara, you said something before that made me think of this. In 2012, I worked for Barack Obama. I was the director of rapid response. And in the last month of the campaign, we had Todd Akin, a candidate for Senate in Missouri against Claire McCaskill, come out and say that women who were raped couldn't get pregnant because the body just shuts down. So it's not an issue. I guess he missed biology class. Then you had Richard Mourdock in Indiana say that a pregnancy from rape was a gift from God. And they were so outside of the mainstream that one of my jobs was to hang their comments around the neck of every Republican in the country, including Mitt Romney's. Now, those positions are not outside the mainstream. They are the mainstream of the Republican Party. All these candidates—J.D. Vance, Doug Mastriano, Blake Masters—they oppose abortion in every single instance, including when the mother's life is at stake. And I'm sorry, that is not going to play well in Peoria.

Kara Swisher: Good point. All right. So I think this is a critical moment. And as long as you say it's about freedom and they're extreme, that's where you tend to win. And you're right, every Republican should be very scared of this outcome, regardless of what was going on with these election deniers. This was the big race, really. Okay, Liz, let's pivot to a listener question. You've got mail. This question comes from Kara, Kara with a C, on Twitter, specifically for you, Liz. I'll read it. "What would Beto need to do to stand a chance in 2024? Also, is representative of democracy a strategy by which the majority public could impact SCOTUS? I get the judiciary is meant to bypass that sort of tinkering, but stacking the court seems childish and unsustainable." Which of course was a Pete Buttigieg idea, making the court larger. So talk about the chances of the various Democratic candidates. And I know that Biden's still running, so it's kind of premature at this moment to say anything. But what is your take on this?

Lis Smith: Well, first of all, my take is Joe Biden is absolutely going to run for re-election. And I know that people love to gossip about this because it's sexier than covering his administration, which thankfully is relatively drama-free. As for Beto, I've seen what he's doing and it's smart. It's what he did in his 2018 Senate race, which is he didn't just go to the Democratic strongholds, the big cities there that turn out. He went to every single county in Texas, which is no small feat, by the way. He is going all across the state, not just to the Democratic strongholds, but to the reddest counties. And it's a really important strategy. That's how Democrats—that's how Barack Obama was able to win states like Iowa, states like Ohio, which have trended more red since then. Yes, you go to Cincinnati, Columbus, Cleveland, but you go to the reddest county. People might say, "Why are you wasting time in a county that is 90-10 for Republicans?" Well, if you can take that 90-10 county down to 70-30 and replicate that with all the other red counties, that's going to give you enough of a margin to build on whatever Democrats you win. That's what Tim Ryan is doing in Ohio now. And that's what Beto is trying to do in Texas. And so he needs to stiff-arm the national party, stiff-arm any national Democrats who are trying to endorse him, come in, campaign for him, and run a really local race. One that focuses on the values of the people he's trying to represent. And that shows respect for everyone, that he's willing to go everywhere and talk to people, even people who disagree with him. Because Greg Abbott is not that way.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, but he's ahead, right?

Lis Smith: Well, it's Texas. And the Democrats made a lot of flawed assumptions about Texas—that as it got more and more Latino, that it was going to go more Democratic. But it turns out that the Latino vote is not as monolithic as people think it is. So it doesn't work that way.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, it never was. All right. If you have a question of your own you'd like answered, send it our way. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show, or call 855-51-PIVOT. All right, Liz, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

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Kara Swisher: Okay, Liz, let's hear some wins and fails.

Lis Smith: My win is Joe Biden finally getting Zawahiri. That was an incredible win for America, a win for people, families like mine. My fail of the week is the Republicans nominating absolute lunatics to be their candidates for governor and Senate.

Kara Swisher: And you feel that it's a fail because they're going to lose because of it, or because it's a sad reflection of democracy at this moment?

Lis Smith: I think it's a fail for them in two ways. I think it does hurt their chances in the general election, but it does dilute the argument of—and we know these people who talk on background or off the record, the Republicans who are very concerned about Trumpism and say that Trump isn't the party. It does dilute this idea that the Republican Party isn't Donald Trump.

Kara Swisher: So let me ask you a question that begs a question before we go. You said Biden is going to run again. And I agree with you. I find this—it is interesting gossip in Washington, but he's the president and he won. I feel like he should do what he wants, right? He should stop being the sacrificial lamb of whatever, as long as he's cogent, obviously. But one of the things—do you think Trump will be running and will get the ticket? What is—if you had to predict, I know you don't like to do predictions since 2016, but if you had to say.

Lis Smith: Trump is going to run again, barring some divine intervention.

Kara Swisher: Or criminal intervention.

Lis Smith: Well, that's sort of what I mean.

Kara Swisher: You know, like we had that whole thing with Mueller and all of that.

Lis Smith: Oh, I think this is different.

Kara Swisher: This is different.

Lis Smith: I agree. But I just—man, I don't want to jinx it. I don't want to jinx it. Let's not even talk about it.

Kara Swisher: Well, now Liz Cheney's unplugged. But I do think Trump will run again. And I think that, again, all those really smart background strategists who shit on Trump—I don't know that any of these guys will have the stones to take on Trump. Like DeSantis. Is there anybody? You could see someone like a Liz Cheney or Larry Hogan. But that's not where the Democratic base is. Ron DeSantis, I do not think has the balls to do it. I don't think any of these guys have the balls to do it. Kevin Stitt in Oklahoma, whoever it is.

Lis Smith: You don't even think DeSantis does. I agree with you. He's also unlikable. I mean, he's very unlikable, but he knows how to tickle those erogenous zones of Republicans.

Kara Swisher: There you go. Thank you for that visual.

Lis Smith: I talked about balls before, so I'm really just packing it in here at the end. But one thing I talk about in my book is there is a through line between Chris Christie and Donald Trump, which is neither of them were textbook Republicans, right? Textbook conservatives. But they realized that they could win and succeed in Republican politics if they hated the people that the Republican base hated even more than they did. So what Christie did was he targeted public employees and teachers. What Trump did was he targeted immigrants. And what DeSantis is doing is he's targeting education bureaucrats and the health experts who have had a sort of mixed record on the pandemic stuff. And so he's got the formula down. But yeah, he doesn't have the personal charisma of a Christie or a Trump. But I also don't think that he has the balls to run against Donald Trump.

Kara Swisher: All right. Well, what about Mike Pence? You left him out of it.

Lis Smith: Really? Really? Really?

Kara Swisher: I mean, like—

Lis Smith: I know, but a little bit.

Kara Swisher: He's leading all his people to testify against Trump. He's behind the scenes. I don't know, man. It's so clear.

Lis Smith: Yeah, I do. I don't think these people do anything without a call.

Kara Swisher: But speaking of someone who does have balls and a giant set of them, I have to give a win this week to Liz Cheney's tweet to Mark Levin. Mark Levin, who's such a ridiculous chode of a person. He wrote, "Stop hiding, Liz. Come on my radio show where we can debate this and numerous other issues." She hit the mark where she's saying Trump fake electors plot. Anyway, and you're so there, she's been invited before and I'm inviting you again. That's an attempt to try to get her to come up. And she wrote as a reply, "When you return to being a principled conservative, I'll return to your show. In the meantime, read what Judge Luttig has written about 1-6 and read 'Lost, Not Stolen' by a group of conservatives and watch all the conservative Republicans in our hearings. Maybe that will help." I love her. She's become a star in a lot of ways.

Lis Smith: And you called Mark Levin a chode, so you got in a good dick joke, too.

Kara Swisher: Hey.

Lis Smith: Yeah, well, it's my favorite word for people like him.

Kara Swisher: So that's my last question. What is her political prospects? If she called you and said, "Liz, you made Pete famous. What can you do for me?" And you decided to work for a Republican. What would you say?

Lis Smith: You know what? I have a hard red line. I do not.

Kara Swisher: All right. Say you had to.

Lis Smith: Okay, like gun to my head, I have to. And she does have them, apparently. She and her father have guns, but go ahead.

Kara Swisher: Her father knows a lot about shooting people in the face, but yeah, apparently, allegedly.

Lis Smith: Allegedly. I guess what I would say is there is no future for her in the Republican Party. And there is probably not much of a future for her in elected office. So I don't see a Cheney switching to the Democratic Party. Wyoming is the most Republican state in the country. So short of switching to the Democratic Party and trying to get disaffected Republicans, her political future is over in that sense. But there is still a way to lead from the outside—to go on TV, to be a thought leader, boards, books, all that sort of stuff. But it's really tough. It's really tough because I know that people dislike Liz Cheney. I disliked Liz Cheney before all of this. And I disagree with 99% of the things that she's said and done, and the stuff with her sister, all of that. But she showed courage. She showed a lot of fucking balls in this process, and she didn't need to. And she did something that most politicians will never do, which is to say, "My principles are more important than my political career." Most people in politics would drown their dog or child to keep their job. And she didn't do that. And she deserves respect for it. Even though I disagree with her on her politics, we need more people with that sort of attitude.

Kara Swisher: Yep. Do you know who she is? She's Margaret Chase Smith, the Maine Senator who spoke against McCarthy.

Lis Smith: McCarthyism. That is an apt comparison. And frankly, on either side—but the Democratic side, I mean, there's no equivalence between the Democratic Party and Republican Party right now and what Donald Trump did.

Kara Swisher: No, no. So you'd have to hold a gun. Just so you know, you have to hold a gun to Liz Smith in order to make her work for a Republican.

Lis Smith: Okay, good to know.

Kara Swisher: This book is *Any Given Tuesday*, which is a reference to *Any Given Sunday*. I was just thinking of the movie, the Cameron Diaz movie.

Lis Smith: Wait, oh my God, wait. You called it the Cameron Diaz movie? What the hell is wrong with you? The Cameron Diaz movie?

Kara Swisher: I love Cameron Diaz. I love Cameron Diaz.

Lis Smith: But that is how I know you are gay is because you call it the Cameron Diaz movie.

Kara Swisher: No, it is the Al Pacino movie. He gives one of the greatest—

Lis Smith: Oh my God, he overacts in everything.

Kara Swisher: Yes, he does. No, no. We both love the movie. And you like it because of Al overacting Pacino. And I like it because of sexy Cameron Diaz, who's so good.

Lis Smith: Football is like life. It's a game of inches. It's a game of you fight, you claw for every inch.

Kara Swisher: Yes. And let me just say you eat every inch of the screen by overacting. Anyway, Liz, that is the show. A fight over Cameron Diaz, who is a genius, and she's coming back to acting, which thrills me. Anyway, we'll be back on Tuesday with more Pivot. I'll read us out. Thank you, Liz. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Enderdot engineered this episode. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week with another breakdown of all things tech and business. Liz, thank you so much.

Lis Smith: Oh my God. Thank you, Kara. This is really, really, really fun. And Scott, thank you for letting me join. And I hope I made enough dick jokes for you.