Secrets to Successful Professional Relationships

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Esther Perel: I've been working and speaking with couples for decades. But over the last years, I've expanded the concept of a pair so that it involves friends, it involves co-founders, podcast hosts, creative pairs. And Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway are one of these creative pairs. People listen to them on their podcast. And what they hear is two people, each embodied in their own points of views, who disagree out loud in front of an audience, into the microphone, and tease each other, and challenge each other, and confront each other. And I thought, gosh, this is a kind of modeling that is so necessary at this moment.

Esther Perel: The focus is often on troubles in the relationship, problems. We don't often actually get to see what does the good couple, the good partnership, the creative pair that holds the polarity actually sound like or look like. And this was my focus on this conversation as I met Kara and Scott.

Kara Swisher: She never initiates sex after. Never, ever. You'll be waiting a long time for that, Scott Galloway.

Scott Galloway: That probably, I could imagine, is something that brings clarity in the relationship between the two of you, no?

Kara Swisher: Yes. Definitely takes that element off the table. Actually, I get along well with men because of that, I think. I really believe that. Because it never hovers on the being sexualized.

Scott Galloway: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: Not that it would, but yeah. In this case, not that it would.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, yeah.

Esther Perel: I thought of that when I, we had this brief exchange when you interviewed me on Pivot. And we were bantering about, we should have a session, we should have a session.

Scott Galloway: Yeah.

Esther Perel: And then I thought, why not actually? Because you have a public persona as a pair on the podcast and then you are also the parents, so to speak, of your team that works for you and watches and learns from your dynamic. And then I thought, there's so much to learn about people who work together and get along. And probably the best thing to ask as a start is, what would make this conversation useful, interesting, productive for each of you? Scott, go ahead.

Scott Galloway: That's not fair.

Esther Perel: It is fair.

Scott Galloway: I really come at this. My objective here is I just want to express how grateful I am. I want to cement what I think are the positives in our relationship. For me, the only objective I have is to use this as a vehicle to express gratitude, to use it as a moment to take a pause and appreciate the relationship and appreciate just how fortunate we are. That's kind of it for me. I didn't come to this with a list of objectives.

Esther Perel: Wishes? It doesn't have to be as practical, but a wish.

Scott Galloway: A wish to be able to take a moment of pause and express my gratitude. This has been a wonderful relationship for me. This is three years, four years?

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I think it's been longer than that.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. And I learn a great deal from Kara more personally, actually, than professionally. And it's been very rewarding for me on a lot of levels. I get to do something twice a week that I not only love doing, I look forward to our work relationship. I don't think of it as work. It's also financially exceptionally rewarding. I wish I'd had this 20 years ago when I needed the money, but it's given me... I have an objective around reach and influence around some things I'm passionate about, and this has provided that platform. And that platform, I am not a modest person. I think I'm remarkably fucking talented. But this platform is really mostly a function of Kara's brand equity that she brought to the table and her credibility. So I'm grateful for that. I feel as if I'm drafting off of Kara's presence in the marketplace. The word I would use is grateful. And I wanted to articulate that gratitude. That's something I'm not very good at. I make the mistake of believing that if I feel something, that other people telepathically register those feelings.

Esther Perel: Like buying a birthday present but not giving it.

Scott Galloway: That's right.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I'm waiting for my birthday present from Scott this year.

Scott Galloway: That was it, by the way. You just got it.

Kara Swisher: Thank you. That's very sweet, Scott. I have slightly different objectives. I'm really interested in why our relationship resonates with so many people. I'm really fascinated. For some reason, our relationship makes people feel better. I say this a lot on the show, but on the way here, I ran into a young woman who stopped me on the street and said, "Yours and Scott's relationship teaches me about relationships." And I said, "Why?" And she goes, "I don't know. I just feel better listening to it." And she was very emotional about it. Then I was waiting in line, and an older woman said to me, "Oh, my God, you and Scott." And it was so fascinating. She was an artist and she talked about listening to it when she does art. She said she was very upset about the state of the world, especially with Israel, and said, "It makes me think a lot and calms me down," which was really interesting. And I was like, "We don't always agree." And she very much said, "That's okay. I learned how to disagree." And it was really interesting. So the relationship has reached into people and they learn how to get along with people they may not agree with. I'm really interested in why that is. Sometimes it's chemistry. Of course, there's chemistry. But what are we doing specifically that's causing that?

Esther Perel: Let's put that question out. I have immediate thoughts too, but I think that one way to start, Scott, would actually maybe go to what you said earlier. I'm actually more thankful for the things that I have learned from her personally than professionally, meaning something is seeping into the way that we register each other. And that then translates in the way that we have conversations with each other, can argue, disagree, banter. And the effect of that is what people get. They see people who are arguing, but they're not hurting each other. They're not fighting. They are elevating each other for the sake of the topic that they are discussing and showing healthy tension.

Scott Galloway: The way I think of it is that, it sounds strange, but Kara and I are what Washington, D.C. is supposed to be. You're supposed to send different viewpoints such that in a civil manner, under the auspices of connective tissues around fidelity and affection for our country and our commonwealth, we have civil and robust debate and argument such that you can craft better solutions. We're here to save democracy. But I think what we engage in is what most people think of as what a deliberative body is supposed to accomplish. You take people with different backgrounds, maybe different interests, and they talk about an issue and they see each other's points. They have empathy. They're civil. They demonstrate affection for each other, even though they disagree, and they come away with a more informed, better union. That is supposed to be our core competence as a species, is a form of cooperation, is debate, evidence, and argument. I think we're the only species that can do that, and we do that.

Kara Swisher: We also don't... A couple things. None of us is so wed to our principles that we're not willing to acknowledge the other's points. And I think that people like that. But what you just said is very interesting. You said we show one relationship between two people, but we actually model what we expect from a nation, from a government. And there's something bigger that exists between us that transcends the two of us. I think that's a very important point.

Scott Galloway: Well, we're talking about the things the government's supposed to be wrestling with. We talk about political issues, we talk about big tech, we talk about economics. And I do think that people want a safe space to explore friction and disagreement without people dunking on each other and being mean or feeling as if somebody has to be the clear winner. To a certain extent, we're Neosporin for how coarse our discourse has become.

Kara Swisher: But it's not just public. It's families. There was a very funny thing I saw. It was a Reddit thing: "My parents believe in QAnon. My kids love Hamas. I don't know what I'm going to do." It was a funny way to articulate it. People are finding a very hard time personally to agree, to come to any agreement, or to disagree in a way that everybody can walk away without feeling terrible. And I think it's because online has infected offline rather than vice versa. Things you wouldn't do. This is not a big revelation, but people feel dunking is okay. The way they behave online is coarse, crude, reductive. It's, "Did you get that person?" And I engage in it too. But I don't take it offline the way a lot of our culture has started to do. It puts people in boxes they cannot escape from.

Esther Perel: There's a word that you didn't use much yet, which is trust. That you won't throw each other under the bus. And that you like each other as people. And so that maintains the connective tissue. I think that one of the sentences people are experiencing the most in the attacks online at this moment is "shame on you."

Kara Swisher: Yes, very much so. It drives me crazy. For whichever thing you think or not think or do or don't do, it's "shame on you. Do better."

Scott Galloway: "Do better." That's the one I hate.

Kara Swisher: "Be a leader." That's what I get a lot.

Scott Galloway: Yeah.

Esther Perel: So I think that what people experience when they hear you is, first of all, they see two people who like each other. In a way, that's something that is often described of what used to exist in Congress as well. People disagreed, but they liked each other. They knew this is a good person. But it didn't destroy. Your beliefs were not the only way by which people judged you. They also looked at how you relate to people, at what you do. Not that you are a religious person and a secular person, but that you are a good person. Wherever you get your values, in humanism or in religion. And so when people listen to you, your friction and the strength with which you each hold your positions and at the same time engage in the dialogue with the other, it's the opposite of the conflict avoidance that many people engage in at this moment. If I don't fully agree with you, I don't talk to you.

Kara Swisher: Or you don't bring it up. And I think a lot of people secretly feel like they can get in trouble for saying things. And if you talk about trust, sometimes we get into trouble for things we say, but I don't think it feels unsafe with each other. To express, even when it's testy. We've had some testy exchanges. Trans was one. There's not that many that I can recall, but we've had some testy ones and somehow we've survived it without disrespect. And I don't know where people lost that ability. Maybe they were holding it all in and now have been able to vomit up whatever comes out of their mouth. Or they lost just... It's not really empathy. It's just how you were raised. I don't know how else to put it.

Esther Perel: So tell me a little bit. I wasn't raised that way. What is your background for each of you?

Kara Swisher: I think you know this, Esther, but my dad died when I was very little. One side of my family is Catholic, Italian. The other side is sort of early American Baptist and much more traditional Southern. And my dad died, who was from that side of the family. And my mom remarried to a terrible person and wasn't, I would say, not the best parent. Was not there for me and my brothers, but she tried her best, I guess, with the limited emotional range she had. After my dad died, I think we kind of raised ourselves in a lot of ways.

Esther Perel: Although you had the support of a great grandmother who was wonderful.

Kara Swisher: That's what I was going to ask. Yeah, my grandmother was really a savior on my mom's side. But I loved my grandmother on my dad's, but we didn't see her as much.

Esther Perel: And if you think about the strengths and the resources that you bring to your interpersonal relations, what are some of the things you would say you honed at home? And by the way, the resources don't always come from great stuff.

Kara Swisher: No, it usually doesn't, does it? I can handle it and nothing much bothers me. I think there's a... Highly functional is often a byproduct of the early death of a parent. I think I'm highly functional. And so I don't get too spun around or on it. I don't get... It's not that I don't lose my temper, but it's hard to get me bothered that much. And I always just move on to the next thing. Move on, move on, move on. Let's keep going. And I have an expression I have on one of my walls here: "Chance favors those in motion." So it's always a moving forward kind of thing. Not in circles.

Esther Perel: If something bothers you, you tell him?

Kara Swisher: Oh yeah.

Esther Perel: Or you wait?

Scott Galloway: Oh, no. She texts me at 2 in the morning. She'll wake me up.

Kara Swisher: You tell him. She needs to know immediately.

Esther Perel: And if you need help, you turn to him?

Kara Swisher: Yes, actually. I've asked him for a lot of stuff. I don't need a lot of help, honestly. I don't.

Scott Galloway: See, I don't think you asked me for a lot of help, actually.

Kara Swisher: Which is exactly why I asked you a question about help. Because you've just told me in a roundabout way. I do. I do. When I have legal things or investment things, I ask him. Business stuff. I don't know if I ask him parenting tips, but I would, I suppose. Actually, no, he helped my son a great deal. He gets shy about it, but he really... I asked him to talk to my son about college. And he was a really important person, between him and my brother, the most important people in helping my son figure out where he wanted to go to school. I would even say Scott was more influential. My son talks about him quite a bit, my 18-year-old. So both my sons really like talking to Scott. So I would avail myself to... Not for me, myself, but for my kids for sure. He's been a real asset to their lives.

Esther Perel: Beautiful, beautiful. How would you describe Scott? Describe your basic demographic background.

Scott Galloway: Origin story. I was raised by a single mother who lived and died a secretary. A lot of my life, hands down the singular most important influence in my life. Blessed to be born in California in the 60s as a straight white male.

Esther Perel: Was she also a "can handle it all" mom?

Scott Galloway: Oh yeah. My mom was very productive, worked hard. I like to work and I think I picked up on that early from her. She worked very hard to make sure we were economically viable. I would say we were upper lower middle class. My household income was never more... I think we peaked at $40,000. But born in California at exactly the right time with exactly the right skin tone, sexual orientation. I had the full force gale force winds of the greatest economy at the greatest time in the greatest state. My narrative used to be "a son of a single mother, aren't I awesome that I overcame these things?" And then as I got older and matured, I realized that I wasn't in the 99.9th percentile, I was in the 99th because I got to go to UCLA for free. I got into UCLA when I didn't deserve to. So my background, from the curb it looks like it was a little bit challenged. But the reality was, absent a male role model, I didn't have that. But absent that, I consider my background remarkably fortunate and blessed. And I got very lucky. I had a really good reference group. My friends as a young man were always very impressive, ambitious, hardworking, good people. And that was really my family, if you will. I was an only child, so my friends were really my family. And I was really fortunate.

Esther Perel: Conversations about men. We do. It does. You've never said this to me, but I've inferred it from the way that you talk about young men and the need for young men for the solid friendships, the circle in which they evolve. So it makes sense.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, that's my practice. It's not my prayer, but every night before I go to sleep, I call two friends and I rotate them. I don't text them, but I call and I have a live conversation with two friends every night. And I've done that six of seven nights for the last 30 years.

Esther Perel: Wow.

Scott Galloway: And I rotate. I go down the list. So I was very fortunate, very blessed around that. But pretty...

Esther Perel: Could you and your mom argue when you disagreed? Could you spark?

Scott Galloway: Oh, sure. I think I went through what I think a lot of young men go through. Separating from the pack, I kind of turned into an asshole when I was a teenager. I was never mean to my mom, but I wasn't as kind as I could have been. But I moved back in with my mother. I actually lived with my mom for a year when she was dying. That made us very close. It was me and her against the world. That was very formative for me. But other than that 17-year-old phase, we were... It's like nothing good happens because nothing really good feels cemented. Because anytime something good happened to me, I would call my mom. Literally anything. "Oh, I met a nice woman at a coffee shop and I got her number." "Oh, I just got my first bonus from Morgan Stanley." Anything good. And now she's not there. So it doesn't feel like good stuff really happens. It's weird. It's like it doesn't really happen because she's not there to hear it.

Kara Swisher: You can call me, Scott.

Scott Galloway: There you go. I occasionally do.

Kara Swisher: No, you do.

Esther Perel: It's so funny. I was just thinking you grew up with a single mom. I grew up very wealthy, I would say, which my brothers and I have tried to escape because we're very hard workers. We hated the step up. But all my brothers are like that. We did not like the trappings of wealth at all and did not enjoy it. We didn't relish in it or become lazy because of it, which was interesting because it's easy not to think about money when you have money, but we really don't. We really work hard. We really like work and earning things on our own. So that was interesting. But you're bringing it in a very necessary way in the economic realm. I'm also thinking simply when you describe dad wasn't there, there was no dad, there was grandma, mom was somewhat present. I learned to fend for myself. I learned to just know I've got my own legs to stand on. I have to be self-reliant.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, absolutely.

Esther Perel: But you probably called grandma when great things happened to you too.

Kara Swisher: Yes. And so you have that combination between connection and self-reliance. We would talk every night, I would say, almost every night of her life, for sure. Yeah, I know her phone. One of the few phone numbers I know was hers by heart. Of course, nobody remembers phone numbers anymore, but that's one I knew by heart, for sure.

Esther Perel: And then I listened to Scott describe calling mom, but also it's easier to be, what did you call a 17-year-old asshole when you actually have someone holding the fort? And you can go, and this relationship is solid and steady, so you can be bratty for a few years. And I'm wondering, to what extent does some of that also exist in your relationship, these formative experiences that you had? Like being with a person, with a woman with strong opinions, who holds things on her own, who works very hard, it's familiar to you.

Kara Swisher: I'm your mother, Scott.

Scott Galloway: I knew you would say this.

Kara Swisher: But it's not "I'm your mother," but it's more that you have learned to not be threatened. You've learned to enjoy, actually, even to welcome behaviors that in a different context are experienced...

Esther Perel: I can imagine some people listening to the two of you and saying, "What an amazing pair. They go at it and they like it." And I can imagine other people listening to you or even working for you, for that matter, even on your team, who get tense when they see that tension and that animosity or that sparring come up. Because that, for them, was not at all something that said, "You're safe here, you can fight." But rather, "You're not safe here, don't fight."

Scott Galloway: I've never been in therapy, but it's one thing that's very obvious about the relationships that are most important to me. My key relationships are all very... My closest friends are either gay or very feminine. I'm drawn to people who take care of me. All of my best relationships are basically some version of Homer Simpson and Marge. I'm the unwashed, idiot frat bro, and they are this caring, decent person. All of my closest friends are gentle, nice, loving people. That's who I've always been drawn to. I have no idea if I'm trying to recreate the religion with my mother.

Esther Perel: What makes them drawn to you?

Scott Galloway: They're drawn to me because I think I provide a certain level of comfort. I don't know what it is, but every one of my close friendships is basically a very gentle, loving person and I'm the irreverent, aggressive, obnoxious one.

Kara Swisher: I don't think you're as bad as you think you are. I think it's a little cosplaying, that that's your idea of yourself. Often when people do come up to me, if they don't like something you said, I constantly say, "Scott is an incredibly kind person." I think you have to... And because he struggles with stuff, that should be a problem for you. Why? Because he's expressing struggling. And so once they start to think that way, they go, "Oh, I hadn't thought of it that way." No, I think you're not. You're a very generous and kind person with your time and your space. And I think you like being the bad boy, but you're not really bad. I know a lot of bad, bad people and you're not one of them.

Esther Perel: One thing stands out for me in their interaction is that they have each other's back. They can argue, they banter, but they prop each other up. Kara says, "I don't think you're as bad as you think you are." They hold a mirror to each other to see themselves in a more holistic way. So sometimes it's blunt, it's sometimes very honest, it's always caring, and it invites the other person to actually see themselves with greater honesty. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.

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Esther Perel: Sometimes people present themselves as tough.

Scott Galloway: Yeah.

Esther Perel: But for the purpose of covering.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I know.

Esther Perel: It's often very tender.

Scott Galloway: Yes, yes. Gentle.

Kara Swisher: I think you're talking about me. I am actually tough, but I also can be tender. It's okay to be tough. One time I was telling Scott, I was talking to someone who was in therapy every day of the week. I guess when you do that, when you're in deep psychoanalysis, and I said, "That's a lot of dice. And I don't think I have that many things to talk about about myself." And they said, "You blocking." Isn't that the word? They said, "You blocking." I said, "Well, it's working."

Scott Galloway: Repressing.

Kara Swisher: Repressing. Yeah. I said, "It's working. I'm very happy and you seem miserable. So I don't know what to tell you." And they said, "It's fake happy." I said, "I don't think so. I think I actually am happy. But okay, sure."

Esther Perel: I have, we've met maybe three or four times that we have spoken together. I don't think of you as tough, but I do sometimes think you can be intimidating. Scott, who presents as tough, doesn't intimidate me at all. You, however, do intimidate me sometimes.

Kara Swisher: Really? Why?

Esther Perel: Because I'm not fully sure how you register me. So I start to not really know. And with him, it's easier to see that under this carapace there is something. He has that smile. And I think, "Okay, got it."

Kara Swisher: Got it. Has nobody ever told you that you can be?

Esther Perel: I'm not as much of an open wound.

Kara Swisher: That's absolutely true. I'm just not. It just isn't. Maybe I have a scar, but I certainly am not. Again, it's the moving on thing. It's like, I can always figure out a way to get out of it.

Esther Perel: I think about that a lot because how do people survive difficult crises? Depending on what the crisis happens to be. Years ago, I did an Outward Bound. There were a couple of them, actually, when you go in the wilderness. And I was very calm in crisis. Extraordinary. I was surprised how calm I was. I didn't panic. I got calmer and calmer as the situation got worse and worse. Because sometimes in the face of threat you can have fight, flight, freeze, or fix.

Kara Swisher: I think I'm the fix. It's not the added. So you become instrumental. You roll up your sleeve and you get to work. And that's not necessarily a good thing because a lot of people... My wife thinks about things a lot. And I'm always like, "Let's just move on. Just make a decision and go. It's not going to get any better by mulling it." And I don't mull a lot. And perhaps I should, but I just don't have time for it. I just don't.

Esther Perel: No, but how are you with those who do?

Kara Swisher: I'm a little impatient, I would say. I think you end up in the same place. So it just seems like it's painful when people do that. The worry makes me think it'll take days off their lives. I don't know. I always feel like I don't have that kind of time.

Esther Perel: So I love the way that people that don't mull and don't worry, it's a very nicely packaged argument for why it's not a good thing to do.

Kara Swisher: No, I get it. I get it. I'm not going to be the one to convince you.

Esther Perel: My wife, when I met her, she said, "What are you neurotic?" But I said, "I can't think of anything. I like to clean, I guess. I don't know. But it calms me down."

Kara Swisher: So yes, I don't find that neurotic. It's useful. Organized specific tasks with a beginning, a middle, and an end.

Esther Perel: And you don't have to think about anything else.

Kara Swisher: That's exactly right. Cleaning has a powerful function in that sense.

Esther Perel: Are you similar in the not mulling, not worrying, not ruminating? Scott, I think, mulls a lot. Don't you, Scott?

Scott Galloway: Yeah. I mean, I struggle with depression and anger. So I have a tendency to live way too much in the past. Hands down, 110% of my anger and mulling is on me, is focused on me. I do think I try to be very generous. I have this thing: don't keep score. Decide what kind of husband, father, son you want to be and be that person. And don't contribute that to the relationship, registering their contribution and keeping score. I just don't do that anymore. But I am very hard on myself and constantly disappointed in myself. Constantly feel like I've come up short on everything I should have done, how I perform on anything. I'm just constantly disappointed in myself and can't get over it and can never forgive myself. And it really turns on me. I get angry at myself and it's like my blood turns to acid and it just registers this emotional toll and I go into these very dark downward spirals. And I talk about that on the show.

Scott Galloway: I think a lot about how I've made a living basically renting my brain to old white guys to say, "What's the opportunity with your business?" That's how I've made my living for 40 years. And the white spaces we fill are the following, from a pure economic or marketing standpoint. And I think white people are drawn to the show in addition to the chemistry. Kara occupies a white space. There aren't that many women, full stop, who come from a background in journalism, who are physically smaller, who are from a vulnerable community, the LGBTQ community, that are in people's faces and giving very forceful, thoughtful opinions, interrupting people, not taking shit. That's just a white space. There aren't that many people from that background. And women and men, but mostly women, but a lot of men too, really respond well to that. They're like, "That's what I wanted to do." Everybody talks about it, but not that many people of that demographic behave that way. So that's the white space that Kara fills. And so people are really drawn to that power, that strength, that courage.

Scott Galloway: I'm a straight white male that shows his emotions. That's the white space. And it's an enormous white space. I cry all the time on our show. You cry. And that is hands down when I get the most response. And it's totally organic. It is not staged at all. I'm embarrassed when I do it. I don't plan on it. It's very authentic. And I cannot tell you how many men I hear from. Because you reveal a side of masculinity that is often so hidden and unacknowledged and yet quite present and real. And all men. There are so many men who literally look at it like a skill that they would kill to have. I hear from these guys, "My whole life I've wanted to express that kind of emotion, and I just can't." And at the same time, you can just feel a lot of women, and I think a lot of people who feel like they've taken shit and listened to men talk over them, mansplain them, not gotten back in people's faces, feel that Kara is sort of their warrior queen, right? So I think we both occupy spaces that makes people feel seen and heard and emboldens them.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, they're aspirational for them.

Esther Perel: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: I think definitely Scott's vulnerability is incredibly attractive. I don't think it's artifice in any way. And sometimes I often tell him, "Just give yourself a break. Stop being so hard on yourself." "Why don't you give yourself a break?" is something I say a lot to him. But I think people do respond because men really, I think what he's talking about is vulnerability in men that is often unexpressed. Men struggle with it because they have a certain persona they need to maintain. And crying, they can't imagine crying in front of publicly, right?

Scott Galloway: No, no. The socialization of men is more geared towards stoicism. And the other side is a woman that maybe doesn't cry is also... She's not, you know, Bill Ackman, and he almost said she has heart, teasing with hate and she laughs at him. She's not crumpled down in a heap crying, "Oh no, a powerful man has said something tough to me." And I think that's something that people appreciate because it's opposite. They're both opposite what you might expect from people.

Scott Galloway: If someone described our backgrounds and our demographics and then said, "This show regularly has one person turning into a chocolate mess and the other person comforts them," they wouldn't guess who it is. They wouldn't be like, "Oh, it's the 6'2" guy." They wouldn't be like, "Oh yeah, that's the guy that's a chocolate mess all the time." There are just so many stereotypes and expectations around people based on how they look or their gender or their backgrounds or whatever it is.

Esther Perel: Tell me something. When you describe that you grapple more with depression and anger and self-doubt, is the presence of Kara palliative for you?

Scott Galloway: Oh, yeah. I very much appreciate it. And that's how I get out of my funks is I spend time with other people. For me, it's really my boys. I've struggled for some reason the past week. I don't know what it is. I can feel it. And I have this whole method. I start working out once or twice a day.

Kara Swisher: Like she cleans, you work out.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I start working out. But more than anything, I try to be around family and I try to be very affectionate with my boy. I go to sleep with my son when he goes to sleep. I just lie next to him. I find that very, very restorative for me. But yeah, I've learned to manage it without pharmaceuticals.

Esther Perel: True connection.

Scott Galloway: But it's a... The way I describe it is mammalian. I just turn to my mammal self, right?

Kara Swisher: Yeah, to oxytocin.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. But because there is just no excuse, and again, it gets me angry at myself. I have blessings the size of Mars, I have a mood the size of an anthill. And it makes no sense.

Kara Swisher: You're not stack ranking your tragedy. You can't stack rank, like, "Oh, that person should be less unhappy because you have all these things." I don't think they ever equal up. I think one of the things that Scott perhaps hasn't experienced as much as I have is that life is unfair. I've had a lot of life is unfair. I always call myself an optimistic pessimist. I expect the worst, and I'm surprised by when it turns out right. I would say he is a pessimist. He really thinks the world is a good place. You know what I mean? In his heart of hearts, he thinks that it's better than it is. And I'm never surprised by it.

Esther Perel: But he thinks that the world is a better place than the place inside of him.

Kara Swisher: Yes, yes.

Esther Perel: And he often describes himself as prone to self-doubt. And so a collaboration, a good collaboration becomes compensatory for the self-doubt. It's like when a show with you takes care of a lot of the rumination. He may still ask himself, "Did I talk too much? Did I talk okay? Did I say the right thing today?" But fundamentally, your presence and the fact that that's not something you grapple with gives him more confidence that it was okay rather than "Did I do well?"

Kara Swisher: I think more to the point is that someone he respects thinks something he said was wise or surprising. And that's one of the things that attracted me to Scott. One of the things he does almost continually on the show is surprise me with insight. And I think he likes that I think he's smart, right? Because I do.

Scott Galloway: Yes, because you're the counter voice to the voice of doubt inside of him.

Kara Swisher: Right, but I think he thinks someone really smart thinks I'm smart. If it didn't come from someone smart, it would have no effect.

Scott Galloway: Right, that's what I mean.

Kara Swisher: And I think I genuinely am always like, "Oh, I didn't think of that." Like the other day he did something. I was like, "Oh, I thought halfway through and then he thought the rest of the way through." So you need other people to get you to the next level and I think that works really well here for sure.

Esther Perel: What I like about what you're highlighting both is that it's become a little easy to describe you from the angle of "it's the pair that knows to fight well and disagree with each other and still like each other." I think what you just described is a whole other layer of what you represent to society in terms of how you each are, but also the kind of complementarity. When you haven't said something that he says, you say, "Oh, he just finished the thought," but you don't berate yourself on it.

Kara Swisher: Well, because I never would have thought of it. That's the thing. It's a different brain. And I'm like, "Oh, I see how..." Have you ever been around someone that sees something way ahead of you? And I have such respect for that. I'm like, "Oh, now I see." It's like when you see one of those pictures where you can't see the face, that's sometimes what it feels like. I'm like, "Oh, there's the face, of course." And then you're like, "Oh, I hadn't thought about that." And I like that. I really find that helpful. And it happens with Scott all the time, which is why it's a really... I'm often surprised. I'm often, "I didn't think that way." It doesn't necessarily change my viewpoint all the time, but it changes the way I think about something. And I think that's helpful because I get uncertain, which is good, which is, I think, a good thing.

Esther Perel: What Kara highlights here is something that is emphasized in the research of John and Julie Gottman about relationships, which is the importance of being able to receive influence from the other person in a relationship. The willingness, the openness to be shaped, expanded, changed through another. And that receiving influence is beautifully modeled right here.

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Esther Perel: Is what you have with him unique?

Kara Swisher: I think it's unusual. I don't get surprised that often. I like being surprised by people and Scott is constantly surprising me.

Scott Galloway: Take that answer.

Esther Perel: He surprises me. Do you think that your relationship is replicable? Have you met other co-founders, co-creators, co-leaders, collaborators that have inspired you? Different model, but that you say they too have this? Because so many people have to work with people and they're all looking for a way to do it in a way that is not just better, but what you're describing, Scott: satisfying, nurturing, joyful, looking forward. I mean, those are beautiful terms to describe going to work.

Scott Galloway: You have to find your co-founder, right? I think co-founders are always better. Honestly, when I see companies, the individual founders tend to be really narcissistic in a way that's eventually problematic.

Kara Swisher: Guardrails, yeah.

Scott Galloway: I've always had partners. I really like it. I think it's much more rewarding to build a company with other people. I think it's fun. I think it's fun to build something together. I think it's fun to make money together. I just find it more rewarding. I would never want to do this kind of stuff alone because it's like, who do you celebrate with? And who takes care of your self-doubt?

Kara Swisher: There you go.

Scott Galloway: But in terms of... I was thinking, if when you went in for heart surgery, someone said, "Well, what happens to Pivot if Kara doesn't make it out of surgery? Who's the next co-host? Who's your co-host?" And I'm like, "If Kara is gone, when Kara is gone, Pivot's done." Or when I'm...

Kara Swisher: See, I would immediately replace you. I know. So I won't say that. But me, I'm like, I don't have the energy to recreate this relationship.

Esther Perel: And another question I had for you, Scott, is actually for both of you, but it came up as you were talking. In what way has your professional relationship with Kara changed you to be a different or a better partner with your wife? How has this relationship informed or inspired?

Scott Galloway: I don't think it's made me a better spouse. I think it's made me a better family person. I've always come from this attitude of "I'm working so hard for the family and don't you appreciate how hard I'm working and I'm working this hard for us" and a lot of self-pity. And Kara works as hard or harder than I do. And there are very few people who work as hard as I do. And Kara always finds time for her family. And I have never heard any of that self-pity. And that's very motivating for me because it's something I don't like about myself. And when I see someone who has as much pressure on her from a relationship standpoint and an economic standpoint as Kara does... Kara's got a lot of dependence and I've never heard you complain once.

Esther Perel: A part of this are the socially sanctioned scripts. This is very cultural. You were talking earlier about how both of you kind of transcend some gender role expectations, but in this one you fall right in the middle of "I'm working so hard, I justify my absence, I justify my lateness, I justify my lack of availability. You should be thankful. You should realize how much I'm doing. I'm not doing this for myself. I'm doing this for the family." I mean, that's such a canned script and very gender specific. And a lot of it's bullshit.

Scott Galloway: Because most of what I do is for me, to be honest.

Esther Perel: Okay, thank you for your honesty.

Scott Galloway: No, I want to be ridiculously rich. I like the hotel rooms. I mean, I'd probably be doing this without my family. It's not like I get up and go drive a bus.

Esther Perel: But do you agree that there is something very gender specific about this script?

Scott Galloway: Oh, no, on so many ways. The other day I grabbed some fries from my kid's plate and he looked at me and he said, "Dad, it's mine." I'm like, "Everything in this house is mine."

Kara Swisher: Did you really say that?

Scott Galloway: I really said that. I used those exact words.

Kara Swisher: Jesus.

Esther Perel: Oh, don't say that again.

Kara Swisher: There you go. There you go. Do not say that ever to anybody.

Scott Galloway: No, I can hear it coming out of my mouth and trying to pull it back.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, yeah. I know. Good idea.

Esther Perel: Do you apologize?

Scott Galloway: What's that?

Esther Perel: Do you take it back at least to the…

Scott Galloway: Oh, yeah.

Esther Perel: Are you good at apologizing?

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I do. I do apologize to my kids and to my wife, and I also try to immediately inject humor to mock myself.

Kara Swisher: His wife runs the whole show, just FYI. 100%.

Scott Galloway: 100%.

Esther Perel: What have I not asked you that you think is an important part of?

Scott Galloway: Yes, please tell me.

Kara Swisher: I don't know. I just think it's interesting because you're right when you started this thing off. A lot of people talk about what the problem is and not what works, right? I think that's a really interesting way to frame this because when people do run into me publicly because they think they really know us, and they kind of do on... fans who listen to the show kind of do know us. They're like...

Esther Perel: So I'll give you an example of what just works. You just gave me this last one you mentioned. Scott gets down on himself and he goes negative. He berates himself. He doubts himself. He pities himself. And you basically say to him, "Cut it off." But you have a way of doing it. And he has a trust vis-a-vis you that instead of feeling cut off and shut down, he feels supported. And he feels that you're helping him not sink. And that you're holding his head above water. Those moments, because relationships happen in micro moves, that's a moment that in a distressed relationship would completely turn on its head. You would say, "Oh, come on, knock it off." And the other person would feel you have no empathy. "I have no room to express myself. What about my feeling? You shut me up," et cetera. And it would begin an escalation.

Kara Swisher: Right. But I don't actually say "knock it off" without saying "you're great." Like, "Look at all the six things." Like, let me show you why that's not the case. It doesn't matter. You can say it in the nicest way.

Esther Perel: What allows him to hold on to this rather than to feel pushed away by it is in the details of many, many other experiences where he has learned to trust that you mean well for him. Many ways of him knowing that there is something in what you do that actually holds him from sinking further. Loads of little things that are not expressed in the moment, but they allow him to attribute meaning to what you say that feels helpful and curative rather than negative and hostile.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I don't know why that is.

Esther Perel: The analysis of micro move by macro move is what helps us understand what makes it work. Now, typically, we all have a good idea of what makes it not work. We've seen all the... you say this and off the other person goes. It's what made this person take this in this direction rather than in the more obvious direction.

Kara Swisher: Right. Yeah. I know you say, but I say you're great. Another person could just hear this as "she's just... whatever you say." What's the word in English? Lie. Yeah, empty words. You're just placating me. And that doesn't happen. And it's like, what allows this?

Kara Swisher: Well, because I think Scott knows that I don't lie. I wouldn't shine him on. I don't ever shine people on. And I think that's... so he knows I wouldn't say it if I didn't mean it.

Esther Perel: Oh, here's a question. What is Scott going to make Kara cry?

Scott Galloway: God, I hope I never make you cry. I hope I give you permission.

Kara Swisher: No, no.

Scott Galloway: You get emotionally... I'm not talking about make you cry. It's that you cry about really lovely things. You cry about your missing friends or someone who's sick or your mom or something like that. You access those emotions.

Kara Swisher: Was that just a joke? Because you're never going to make me cry.

Scott Galloway: So yeah, but you've... I've heard you get emotional about stuff. I think you feel more licensed to talk about personal stuff because I'm so personal.

Kara Swisher: My kids, probably. Yeah.

Scott Galloway: But I think you know, it's just different. Kara's raised from a position of where I think... I don't want to say her claws are out, but Kara said something to me that really struck me. She said, when we're talking about people who kind of run the world or these heads of tech platforms, they don't build any safeguards. They're not worried about people being victims because they've never been victims themselves. And so they just have a difficult time understanding what it's like to feel like a victim. And I feel like Kara comes from a place where she just took a lot of shit. And so as a result, she puts up... it's not a front. But I think you have a lot of calluses. I won't even call it scar tissue, but I think you're tough. You're an igloo. You're tough on the outside and soft and gooey on the inside. But the vast majority of people you come in contact with are never going to see that, I don't think. I've seen it a few times, but I think most people don't ever access that. And so the question of when will I cry? I'm teasing.

Esther Perel: Go ahead.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, but I'm coming back to it because it goes hand in hand with the "I don't mull, I don't wallow, I don't self-pity, I get over things, time is short." That very robust system that you have. So there might be one day something that finally says, "I deserve to be here." But the "I," as in this feeling, deserves to take just some space inside of you for a moment. Please don't shut me down. Please don't go practical on me. Please don't start cleaning. Just let me express myself. And there will be maybe one day a part of you that just asks for that and makes it happen. He will have had not much to do with it.

Kara Swisher: But cleaning works. I'm telling you, Esther, there should be a whole therapeutic thing. I cleaned the whole basement on Sunday. I'm so happy.

Esther Perel: I've written in Mating in Captivity two pages on somebody who really began cleaning at the moment things became most chaotic. And that notion that order on the outside will be met by order on the inside.

Kara Swisher: It is, though. It does work.

Esther Perel: Now, it works as a wonderful, repressive tactic of organizing structure. It works for something. But if you ask, "How will I one day cry unbeknownst to me? Will tears grab me like I've seen them grab him?" For that, those tears will need to carve a little way inside of you and basically say, "Let us come. Let us stream. Give us permission."

Kara Swisher: Yeah, that's true. That's true. Probably unlikely, but still.

Esther Perel: I think we can stop here if that's okay with you.

Kara Swisher: Great. Thank you for doing this. I can't imagine how many very famous and interesting people would kill to have you do this for them. So thanks very much.

Esther Perel: Yeah, my pleasure.