The Latest Twitter Battle, What's Up With Tech Stocks, and Our Guest Is State Senator Mallory McMorrow

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Kara Swisher: Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway: And I'm Scott Galloway.

Kara Swisher: Oh, you're being quiet again.

Scott Galloway: No more quiet.

Kara Swisher: What's going on?

Scott Galloway: No more quiet. Daddy just went deep in the paint last night. I'm a little hungover.

Kara Swisher: Deep in the paint. Once again. There is a lot going on in the world, mostly about Elon Musk. He's had quite a busy few days. We're going to talk about that in a minute. But just so you know, No Mercy, No Malice, Scott's newsletter that goes to 250,000 subscribers, won Webby's for Best Business Newsletter. No Mercy won both Webby Judges and People's Choice Award. It beat out the newsletter offerings from McKinsey, The Washington Post, and The Skim, and had over 51% of the votes across five nominees. Scott writes about business, economics, and relationships. So, what a thrill. Your talent knows no bounds.

Scott Galloway: Kara, I'm just a little bit embarrassed you even brought this up. I didn't even think of this. Really, I won the award. I haven't been at home staring at the award, touching myself for the last 27 hours. Did you get an award? Did they send you one?

Kara Swisher: No, but we've been invited to some bougie party at Cipriani to accept the award.

Scott Galloway: Oh, that's where they have it.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. You're going to go?

Scott Galloway: I'm not. I'm going to be in Germany with my second wife, Kara Swisher.

Kara Swisher: I went there once to give Kim Kardashian an award, that Cipriani. It was quite a funny thing, I have to say. They didn't ask me to do that. I would cancel a trip to Germany if that was an opportunity.

Scott Galloway: Well, you have to do a five-word acceptance speech.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, what are you going to say?

Scott Galloway: "Thanks."

Kara Swisher: What are you thinking?

Scott Galloway: Oh, I thought of that just right now. That's pretty good. But this started seven years ago. This is what I do every Thursday night for the last five years. And Jason Stavers, Ed Olson, Catherine Dillon, Rizik, our designer, Mia Silverio, Daniel Atia. It's a real effort and very rewarding. So thanks to the team.

Kara Swisher: Well, congratulations. You didn't even know we were nominated.

Scott Galloway: We didn't.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, you didn't. But nonetheless.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. We were nominated for two things and we came up short.

Kara Swisher: How on earth did we not win for best co-host? We are literally chocolate and peanut butter with cocaine spread on it.

Scott Galloway: Oh, my God. That's a sandwich I'd order over and over.

Kara Swisher: Oh, speaking of cocaine, speaking of drug use, we're going to have to talk about Elon more today. We're also going to talk about earnings are in. There's mixed news for Fang. Also, things are looking messy in that deal. And we'll also speak in a very happy way to State Senator Mallory McMorrow about her vital response to the accusations of grooming. She gave some speech. I love it. As you know, I love that speech. Mother of many and isn't going to take it anymore from these people who throw around pedophilia accusations, which is the most irresponsible thing you can do. But first, Fidelity is throwing Bitcoin into its 401k. Next year, investors will be able to put as much as 20% of their retirement plan into Bitcoin, although employers will be able to lower that limit. Fidelity says that 30% of institutional investors would prefer to buy an investment product containing digital assets, according to an internal study. People want it. But only 2% of employers would consider making cryptocurrency available in their plans, according to a different study from the Plan Sponsor Council of America. So what do you think of that?

Scott Galloway: I mean, whatever. People can buy it if they want. Look, there's no doubt about it. It's huge validation for Bitcoin.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Scott Galloway: And I also think it's a good idea. People ask me, "Should I invest in crypto?" And I say, well, beyond Bitcoin, which has created scarcity and credibility, and Ethereum, which seems to be the technology or has some utility because most NFTs are minted using Ethereum technology. But anything else is pure speculation. I would say put a little bit of money in. And the thing about asset managers like Fidelity, they're very good at diversifying your portfolio for you so you don't have to.

Kara Swisher: Versus thinking. Ease of use.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. And it's a good idea when you're young to take some asymmetric flyers because you never know what can happen. If something goes up six or tenfold, even if you only have three or five percent of your portfolio in it, it makes a real difference. When you're young, you can take those sorts of risks. And it also goes to the notion that the average account value at Robinhood is $250. I would have bet at Fidelity, it's tens of thousands. 23 million people. It's where your retirement money is. It's saying to a lot of people, "Here's an easy way to do it," which I think is what's preventing people from going into this. And in that way, it also makes it more valuable, like gold. You can hold gold this way. I put it akin to gold at this point.

Kara Swisher: I don't know how you relate to Bitcoin, but that's how I would think about it. Gold, it's not entirely sure how much there is in the ground, I would argue.

Scott Galloway: It's good and it's bad versus gold, but it does appear that as more money comes out of gold funds, Bitcoin does go up. But it is very difficult to transport $10 million of gold from London to New York. Bitcoin's more divisible. Bitcoin's genius. They've slipstreamed into this void of scarcity credibility created by the USD and all central banks because they keep printing money like crazy. But now, who would have thought? And it consumes the power of Norway now. It's just such a unique, weird thing. And the founder, they don't know who the founder is.

Kara Swisher: And these things about, it's you?

Scott Galloway: Yeah. I could see that. I think actually my theory is it's the CIA because the CIA is the only organization in the world that can keep a secret.

Kara Swisher: Oh.

Scott Galloway: And then they get to track all flows of all illegal activity and move in on the really serious stuff.

Kara Swisher: Whoa. Now you're going to get the conspiracy theory people going. I'm sure they're already going, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. I'm paranoid, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I think it's huge validation for Bitcoin. I do think that Bitcoin is going to be enduring. I don't know if it's going to be $4,000 to $400,000. What about the other coins?

Scott Galloway: I would stay away from absolutely every coin. Unless you wanted to take a basket of a bunch of them and know you're playing the lottery. But when one... I mean, these things... Tell me what Solana does. I don't know what it does. Tell me what CumRocket does. Tell me what Dogecoin does. These are just pure speculation. And they're fun. Fun is worth spending money. I like to gamble. That's fun. But that really is speculation.

Kara Swisher: I think at some point when you can buy things with this, as you can do in certain countries, although every report out of El Salvador says no one's able to use the Bitcoin because the systems aren't in place. And this is a system. Fidelity is a system that makes it easier. There was a report I was watching of how El Salvador is becoming the Bitcoin country. But this guy tried to buy a candy bar and just had the worst time being able to at various stores.

Scott Galloway: Did it have veins in it?

Kara Swisher: Yes, it did. Of course it did. I think it's an important move. I have a Fidelity account. I might buy some Bitcoin.

Scott Galloway: Whatever you do, put your crypto on your Ledger Nano X hardware wallet. You want cold storage.

Kara Swisher: You want cold storage. Okay, got it. I'm sure I'll lose it again like my last bunch of Bitcoin that I have somewhere in the world. Anyway, there's more trouble for Robinhood. The company, as you noted, will cut 9% of its full-time staff, according to its CEO. On Tuesday, Robinhood shares closed at the lowest price since the company went public last July. The company is set to release first quarter results on Thursday after market close. Why is this? The market is still going. Obviously, people are worried about a real decline. There's been a decline, but it's certainly still going. Is it just everybody got out of the house and stopped playing games on Robinhood? What do you think is going on here?

Scott Galloway: I think it's a lot of things. I think people aren't as trapped, so they're not turning to things. I would imagine a lot of online learning has gone down because people want to get out of their houses. I imagine a lot of the young men who are staring at their screen selling and buying crypto or stocks have more opportunities to get out and do different things, which is a wonderful thing. And also, I don't think the premiums they're getting for their payment for order flow are as high. I think the market's getting more efficient, so they can't arb people unknowingly into bad paired trade deals. You also have people who have woken up and said this is a company that's not growing, averages $230 per account, and the valuation just makes no sense. In addition, if you really think about the stuff that's been mendacious—a Facebook, a Twitter, a Robinhood—it all comes back to one business model driven on attention. And it starts with the old economy guys. Both Fox and CNN realize that if they create the situation room, even when there isn't a situation. "Breaking. Breaking now." Or their anchors accuse Trump of something horrible. Most of the time it's true. Some of the time it's not. It gets people glued to their TV so they can sell them more restless leg syndrome pharmaceuticals. The same thing is true of Twitter. The same thing is true of Facebook. And for the first time, we have a company that's entirely dependent upon payment for order flow. Some of the other guys do it—TD Ameritrade does it, Schwab does it. But when you create a system where your customer is the advertiser or the person buying your order flow, then the actual user of the social network or the actual investor becomes the product. You're just harvesting them like an organ bag.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, it feels like that. The reason I don't use it is I just don't trust them. I know it sounds funny, but I sort of trust Fidelity.

Scott Galloway: They stopped trading in certain equities. They wouldn't let you.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I trust Fidelity. I buy Bitcoin through Fidelity. I wouldn't through Robinhood. I can't even place why. Maybe I'm an old lady, but I just... the trusted relationship thing. And it seems so silly. I do think that young people should be figuring out all finances, not just stocks. So I like the idea of it and the democratization. I just don't trust them.

Scott Galloway: No, there's some good things. Good education. There is some education going on there and bringing people into the market.

Kara Swisher: Who are they? Who's looking at my account?

Scott Galloway: Well, why would you trust them? They announced that you couldn't buy certain equities. All of a sudden they're saying, "You can't buy this stock because we don't have the capital to support the pairing of the trade." That's the kind of thing that brings markets down. It creates panic. So I don't think there is a reason. I think your lack of trust is well-earned. It's not a well-run company. It's not a company that has shown a great deal of regard for its consumers. Sometimes it's darkest before it's pitch black. This thing is off 70 or 80%. Look at the numbers. It still can't justify its valuation right now on any metric.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, it's interesting. There are a lot of very well-known investors in this thing, but they've probably gotten out, my guess. I like the ideas behind it. But for some reason, when it comes to money and health, I now worry about my DMs on Twitter. I don't know why. I just think, "Huh, some dumb person who's not being managed correctly is going to look through my things." But we'll get to that in a minute. When it comes to money and health, I really want to have a little more trust in the companies I'm using. And in general, I don't have trust in any of them, but that's another issue. Anyway, we'll see. But let's get to our first big story. Earnings are in this week with some good news for Facebook. The social network is gaining users again. Shares of Meta jumped on the news, even as revenue came in lower than expected. But Google could use a boost. Its shares dropped on the news of slowing ad revenue growth at YouTube. So we're seeing year-on-year growth for Google search. Not a surprise, given the competition in the market. Between Facebook and Netflix stock dives and the Google news, is the FANG era over? And by the way, let's retire FANG, because Netflix doesn't really fit in there. I'll just say GAF. More challenges could be in store. A bill in the Canadian parliament could force two companies to share revenue with news publishers. This is similar to what happened in Australia. And just like in that Australian episode, Facebook is once again threatening to block Canadian news publishers from its platform rather than pay them. So what's up? Talk first about the stocks and what they're doing.

Scott Galloway: Well, Meta's lost half its value. Meta's shed $440 billion in value. And even in the context of Twitter right now, I think Facebook trades at enterprise value to revenues of three and a half. The value of its shares is equivalent to three and a half times revenue. The offer that Twitter is supposedly going private at values Twitter at six and a half times its revenues. That gives you a sense of just how poor the earnings are at Twitter, what a small business it is. Facebook continues to be, even despite their problems, a great business. It's still growing. They added users. On most metrics, historically, it looks cheap. But every company... it's like six feet under. Everything everywhere ends. I had Ray Dalio on my podcast and he said, "You always want to be moving." Every run comes to an end. A lot of people would argue that Microsoft went flat for 10 years. Amazon lost 90% of its value from 99 to 2001. The FANGs have actually held up really well compared to the others, with the exception of Meta, which has seen its stock price cut in half. But I think the thing that is damaging the stock and turning it into almost a mature stock in terms of valuation is that its growth has slowed. It's facing a lot of pushback over its terrible behavior. But also, I think the market is waking up to the reality that the massive $10 billion plus investment they made to create an alternative revenue stream and re-jumpstart their growth—the metaverse—is not working. I think the market already senses that if it was working, they'd be putting out all sorts of numbers and press releases about people signing up, people engaging four hours a day without legs. I think the market senses that their big bet to try and diversify away from advertising on Facebook and Instagram is not working.

Kara Swisher: Well, let's be fair. They don't really have a product yet. It's not been offered. It's an investment in the future. Disney is doing the same thing. They named a metaverse head. Everybody is working on this idea of a 3D environment versus a 2D one. It's a good thing for Facebook to invest in. It absolutely is. The thing is, it's going to be so slow. And who knows when? And who knows if they're the ones that are going to be dominant? I would see Disney as sort of... if they get together more, where you would be immersed in them more than you would in a Facebook environment. So that's not entirely fair because they're making the investments they need to. I don't think they're going to do it. That's the problem. And I think they're not getting credit for it in advance.

Scott Galloway: Strategically, it's the right move. They're making a big, bold bet to diversify their revenues against a business that looks mature. That's smart. It's bold. It's visionary. But the thing that I think is a bit of a misnomer or a head fake is this notion that they're investing in this new thing. Epic has an amazing metaverse. Twitter is a metaverse. Apple not only has a metaverse with 750 mini metaverses called Apps and releases 750 new ones a day, it has the ultimate portal in AirPods which will sell 120 million versus maybe 5 million in Oculus. So there are great metaverses everywhere. And this notion that the new innovators are coming in to create new metaverses... where is the beef here?

Kara Swisher: Well, they have to. That's what I mean. By the way, I just bought the newest Apple AirPods. They're so fantastic. I have so many different AirPods from different companies. I buy two pairs a month conservatively because I lose them like sunglasses. It's a great price point.

Scott Galloway: Do you realize that the Oculus is the most overhyped tech product out there?

Kara Swisher: It's the most underhyped. Scott, you need to use it before you insult it anymore. I'm going to require you.

Scott Galloway: I'm not into feeling nauseous.

Kara Swisher: I understand, but you can't... it is a very good product. I just don't use it a lot. That's different.

Scott Galloway: And neither does anyone else. No one uses it or buys it, Kara. People don't want to put that thing on their head.

Kara Swisher: If you use it as a game thing or an exercise thing, it's very good. It is.

Scott Galloway: It's the 2022 equivalent of the LaserDisc. Great technology. People say they like it. No one will buy it.

Kara Swisher: Could be. But if you just took AirPods, just AirPods, and they were a business, it'd be a Fortune 200 company just behind MasterCard and just ahead of Estee Lauder.

Scott Galloway: AirPods are the most under-hyped tech hardware product of the last 10 years. They're an incredible product.

Kara Swisher: What about Google? Move to Google.

Scott Galloway: Okay, so ad business is slowing. Obviously, Amazon's getting in here and growing. I think Amazon's doubled its market share, and Google has lost share. What do you imagine is happening over at Google? YouTube continues to be... it hit a wall here, or it didn't do as well here, but it's done incredibly well the last year. It's an amazing business. It's kind of right behind Instagram as the best acquisition in history. And what people don't talk enough about is how staggering the category, the growth, and the dominance of search is. Search is a $150 billion business with one player that has 93% share, and it continues to grow. Google is sort of searching the seven dwarves. But search... I would argue search is, next to the iPhone, the most profitable product in history. It continues to grow and they have 90... the iPhone has between 30 and 40% share.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, low. As Apple people will note, "We're not that big." And in some markets it's less than five percent. If you go to Brazil, an iPhone is $3,000. So it just isn't a large market for that. Everybody uses Google search. So I think it's well run. But still, slower year-on-year growth for search.

Scott Galloway: It's a well-run company. Slower year-on-year growth. There's no more to get. Correct. I just think that it's the kind of stock I've always felt... they're incredibly well run. They're so dominant in search. There are some niche providers, but no one's really gotten real traction. There's Neeva, there's DuckDuckGo. I just don't think you can go wrong long-term with that management team.

Kara Swisher: Okay, but what about this? Right now, it's slower. People look at that because there's nowhere to go, is my read on this.

Scott Galloway: I don't know. I think as more people come online, as more people discover small businesses and realize that all you need is a credit card, as more businesses realize they can't develop competitive advantage with search, they have to keep doing it. It's now more of a tax than it is a point of differentiation. Everybody has to use it. I wouldn't want to bet against Google.

Kara Swisher: I got to tell you, I'm not using it as much. I search on Amazon. I search on individual sites. I don't search Google as much as I used to.

Scott Galloway: Really?

Kara Swisher: I don't. That's really interesting. Just like going to the movies. I know everyone's saying, "We're back at the movies." I just don't go.

Scott Galloway: I think you're seeing a little bit of a pandemic... what's the opposite of bump? A little bit of a pandemic drop. Because I just think people aren't as behind their screens as much the last quarter.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, yeah. They're in their herb gardens and out playing soccer with the kids for the first time in a while. I think you know where to go on your phone. You have a certain little path that you go. You're going direct to the site.

Scott Galloway: Anyway, what about this Canadian thing? They're going to fight this in many, many countries. This is paying for news publishers. News publishers aren't giving up here. I just think the worm has turned. I think people are so sick of being lied to. And finally, the regulators are more sympathetic to the lobbyists from old media. And they are leveraging the sometimes justified, sometimes not justified anger against Meta. I think it's going to start happening everywhere. First was Australia. Now it's Canada. I think you're going to see the communist domino theory happen, but with an anti-Facebook movement across the world.

Kara Swisher: You know who started this? Axel Springer. I'm seeing Matthias this week. He's very elegant. He started this. But the bill, just for people who don't know, would give the Canadian government office the ultimate say over which outlets can participate in the revenue share and which can't. I'm not sure that's such a good idea. It would also open the door to Facebook funding both public and private broadcasters, including Canada's CBC. And under the bill, YouTube and Apple News would not have to pay publishers, but Twitter might. It's not clear. That would be funny if Elon had to pay Canadian journalists. I'm sure he would tweet about that. You might see a version of it in the U.S. Senate in the works backed by Senator Klobuchar. But she's got bigger bills to pass. Nonetheless, this idea of paying publishers is not going to let up anytime soon. And they will be winning certain things.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, look, I don't... but it's a trend, presumably. I think they just have a world of hurt ahead of them. I do think that the entire world—legislators, parents—feel lied to. And unfortunately, all of this noise around Mr. Musk and Twitter has really distracted us from some very important stories. Ukraine. The fact that abortion clinics in Kentucky have basically all been closed down. But also, something very disturbing. There was a great article in the New York Times. When I was growing up, the way that teenagers had tragic deaths was alcohol-related—binge drinking or drunk driving.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Scott Galloway: That has been reduced dramatically. That's a huge victory for Mothers Against Drunk Driving, airbags, education, good parenting, tight alcohol laws. But the death rates haven't gone down. Why? Because kids are no longer drunk. They're depressed. These deaths of despair—suicide, opioid addiction. And I want to be clear, Meta's not responsible for that, but Meta is in the mix. Our social media going on mobile is consistently cited as a component of kids' depression. And when you think about it, I said this on CNN and got a lot of shit for it: I would rather my kid be drunk than depressed.

Kara Swisher: I can see why, Scott. I don't think that's the choice.

Scott Galloway: I'm being very serious here. I have a lot of friends with teenage kids. When they abuse drugs and alcohol and they get fucked up, it really rattles the house. When a kid is suffering from real depression and stops eating or starts self-harming, the house literally comes down to the fucking studs. So I do think... let me put it this way, this is definitely no better. We have made no progress.

Kara Swisher: Let me be clear. The drinking is a way to cover up the depression. That's what it's doing.

Scott Galloway: I don't know, though. I think a lot of times it's exploring the bounds of your risk-taking. I push back. I think that's true with some kids. I think most kids who engage in alcohol abuse are exploring their freedom and don't understand their limits. Most of them figure out their limits and dial it back.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Scott Galloway: But I think depression and mental illness is more mendacious.

Kara Swisher: I would agree. My kids don't drink, but weed is an issue. We discussed it a lot. I had a long talk with Louis about it, and he's cutting back rather significantly. You can't control this stuff in lots of ways. He's going off on this thing in the woods. Because teenagers get the best weed. He's having the best year. He's been traveling and camping and hiking and really getting out and away, which I really like. Everybody has issues. Every kid has issues. Every person has that. Yours have less. You have good boys. But he's going out and hiking and doing things, and his mental health, I have to say, has lifted in general. You can feel it. Just being outside, exercising, doing other things. I'm not going to say my kid is a Boy Scout, but when you move away from staring at the phone and doing weed and drinking and get out, it just changes. That's not the solution because a lot of kids have very severe mental illness. But many kids are sucked up into a cycle that pushes away the pain. I'm glad that kids aren't drinking as much anymore, but we really have to focus on how to get them tools to be able to do this in lots of different ways that don't have to do with tamping it down via opiates or weed or using the internet, which is a version of that. I feel addicted to it. You know what I mean?

Scott Galloway: 100%.

Kara Swisher: So in any case, I don't know how we got off on this tangent.

Scott Galloway: You want to know my remedy for short-term depression? I want to be clear. Some depression requires clinical intervention. And I'm serious about this because it's something I struggle with. And I talk to a lot of young men. It's called SCAFFA. S, sweat. I find sweating resets your system. Try to do it four to five times a week. C, clean. Eat, drink a lot of water. Try to eat better. A lot of home cooking. Try to avoid salty stuff and transplants. A, abstinence. I think when your head's a little fucked up, you stay away from alcohol and THC for a while. Just stay away from it. I'm not saying abstinence... well, I am saying abstinence. I'm saying take a break. F, family. I really do believe being around people that may bother you, but they'd have to put up with you, is restorative. And A, affection. With dogs, with your family, with your romantic partner. I'm not talking about sex. I'm talking about just being in the physical presence of other people. SCAFFA. There you go.

Kara Swisher: SCAFFA. And also, you know why Louis... actually, my publisher pitched me on that. You know why Louis is feeling so much more mentally prosperous?

Kara Swisher: He's just very excited about my Webby. He's just very excited about the Webby.

Scott Galloway: I don't think so. I don't think he knows about it.

Kara Swisher: I don't think he knows about it. He's investing in our relationship. You're right. My both sons are very athletic or go out and stuff like that. They do a lot of things. I just am really pleased in that regard. But a lot of people are struggling. And so I think you're right. These kind of bills are addressing that one. It certainly doesn't address opiates, which Sackler should be in jail. Thank you. That's my daily attempt to try to get them jailed, but it's never going to happen.

OK, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about the latest with Twitter. There's a lot to talk about. We'll speak with a friend of Pivot, Senator Mallory McMorrow.

[AD BREAK]

Kara Swisher: Scott, we're back. The man behind Twitter's big purchase might regret pushing that button. European regulators have warned the new owner that Twitter will have to comply with EU's moderation rules, which are very severe. They're not the only ones trying to tie his hands. He's also banned from tweeting disparaging marks about Twitter and its employees, according to a clause in the buyout agreement. What didn't stop him from posting a meme mocking Twitter's chief legal officer, Vigigati, on Wednesday? He's also engaged with tweets from prominent right-wingers attacking that employee, and he attacked another employee, and all kinds of stuff. He's been doing a lot of virtue signaling to the right quite a lot, which is interesting. He posts funny things, but a lot of it is really quite odious.

Now, Scott, the most unlikely part of this whole week, you had a civil exchange with him on Twitter. He wrote, "True Social, terrible name exists because Twitter censored free speech." Scott, agree, no valid reason for True Social to exist. Elon wrote back, "Should be called Trumpet instead. I wanted to call it Mindspace or a bunch of other things." But anyway, so what's going on here? You said Monday. It isn't a done deal. So did Bill Cohn when I talked to him this week. Tesla stock has lost a fifth of its value since it was now at stake in Twitter. Big problem there. The deal features a billion-dollar breakup fee, by the way, which is in the merger documents, which I spent some time reading. There might be some evidence of some mass Twitter exodus already. Prominent accounts, including Barack Obama and Katy Perry, have lost hundreds of thousands of followers since the news of the sale broke. There's that conspiracy theory about that. Marjorie Taylor Greene gained 90,000 followers. That's her congressional account. Her personal account is still banned from Twitter. Scott, please begin.

Scott Galloway: Well, I don't. I now, just so I can really stick my neck out there and be just wrong over and over again, I don't think it still closes, Kara. I think this is what happens. I mean, the mocking of the chief, this is what we have. You have a guy who's bought your company, and your new boss, the owner of the company, is a threat to you. And that is he might start tweeting angry things about you or disparaging things. And have you seen the chief legal counsel's feed now?

Kara Swisher: Yes.

Scott Galloway: It is, you said something that really moved me. I wrote about it. Let me just, let's just be clear, because I'm not, he did, what he said is he didn't like the decision around the Hunter Biden laptop. What happened was it unleashed an army of trolls. So if you look at the actual thing, it's a criticism many have. I'm gonna, look, They made a mistake there. They absolutely did. But what it did is Elon pretending he doesn't have impact. And then his Twitter, his troll army, the troll part of his army, not all of it, by the way, I'm going to be very clear, went to town on this woman. And I wrote about it. I think I really think you suffer from both sideism here.

Kara Swisher: No, I'm not. By this point. Scott, I'm the first person who said this is appalling. At this point, he should recognize that his army of Tesla Taliban, when he says something critical of a woman who has a big public profile, that she is going to get massively harassed. And it all comes back to something you said that really struck me, is that when you've never been threatened, you have difficulty understanding the threats presented by your activity and your company. And the reality is I can go out and say fairly provocative things and no one threatens to rape me. And I don't feel, quite frankly, I just don't feel physically threatened. I feel like I could kick the shit out of most of my trolls. I think most women, when they're walking around a neighborhood, have to think about their physical safety. And I don't think these guys, these white guys in their 50s have any ability to say, well, maybe just because it doesn't threaten me, it's not threatening to other people.

So this is what you have. You work at a company and you worried about the new owner saying something that going to really fuck up your life for the while. In addition, he is really fucked up here. And this is the mistake and the miscalculation he made. He is linking himself and doing a big fat bear hug on the far right. Who buys Teslas? Democrats. Left wing people. Democrats who want to be more attractive to people. I'm rich and I care about the environment. Have sex with me.

Scott Galloway: Like yourself, but go ahead.

Kara Swisher: 100%. The people buying Teslas are going to be predominantly left wing, and he's decided to bear hug Jim Jordan and Marjorie Taylor Greene. Oh, and by the way, look what's happened to Tesla stock since he decided to leverage their stock for his misadventures in free speech. This is what's going to happen. You know who does not want this deal to close? Elon Musk.

Scott Galloway: I don't know. If the stock continues to go down, Jamie Dimon and James Gorman are no way ever going to put themselves in a position to go on an earnings call and say, we lost $3 billion because we lent Elon Musk money and Tesla's down 90% and he can't pay back his margin loans. So if that stock gets cut in half from here, he's going to get more calls saying-

Kara Swisher: Can I just, let me make a comment first because I've written a lot about this. So first of all, the stock is down 6% today already, which is really quite something. 18% for the past five days, 24% for the past month, 23% for the past six months. So it's not going the right direction for him, and it's got to. It's got to. It really does here. That said, there's other means of doing this versus that. He's the richest guy in the world. They can find the money in some fashion. But he's putting himself out, as Bill Cohen said.

Secondly, I just want to say, you don't think I think it's important. And I was urging many top Twitter executives to at least say something. Because here's the problem. They're not attacking Jack Dorsey, who, like it or not, even though he pretends he didn't make the decision, made the decision. He was the CEO of the company, and you don't get a part-time hall pass that he had. He made every one of these decisions. Elon and many others are attacking, but they aren't attacking him. They've picked the woman of color, who was very critical to decision-making. Let me just be clear. She's the chief legal officer, but ultimately it's the CEO that should be responsible. And Ev Smith spoke up about it. Costello went out on a limb like I couldn't believe. Bullying is not leadership. I think he wrote in a number of other things. And many – the former PR person broke out that meme that Elon put up. Jack invited her on the show. She did give examples and they left Jack out of it because Jack is a pal in their little fight club. Right? Jack was the CEO that they're complaining about and she gets attacked. Not astonishing, what a surprise kind of thing.

And then one of the things I'll say, because I did tweet about this, the reason he's doing this ultimately, I think, is not necessarily to cause, to create this frenzy around her, which has happened, but he's trying to get them to leave so he doesn't, this is what many people have told me to so so that he doesn't have to pay them. They're going to have to make significant layoffs at Twitter to make these numbers work and so they're he's trying to get people to leave so he's trying to have to lay them off and bully people using 81 million followers.

Scott Galloway: You think he's that bad?

Kara Swisher: I think that's what I think. They're goading them into leaving. They have to pay off what is he, David Zasloff anyways? Let me just finish. Let me just finish. He also is virtue signaling to the right because he needs their support of this deal. So if there's any problem, he's got it. He also is looking for his other businesses because they're going to be in power in the next election. They are.

Scott Galloway: Huge miscalculation.

Kara Swisher: What? I'm just telling you, this is what I think he's doing. Marjorie Taylor Greene does not buy Teslas.

Scott Galloway: Not Marjorie Taylor Greene. He's embracing a lot of that side. Who on the right owns a Tesla?

Kara Swisher: No, I'm talking about other things. He's got other businesses with the government. He's got big businesses. So he wants to be-

Scott Galloway: So he's going to alienate 50%? I don't buy that, that this is in any way a good move.

Kara Swisher: I think that's exactly, I think, hello, Facebook did it. Facebook did it with the Trump administration. Facebook embraced both sides. It's been rubbing the small of Charles Schumer's back for years and been giving money to Democratic candidates.

Scott Galloway: Yes, that is fair.

Kara Swisher: All right, the other thing, it does refocus away from Tesla stock. And I think that's one of the issues is it focuses, It keeps them away from focusing on other problems he's got. And then lastly, this idea, this disparagement clause that everyone's like, oh, now he's broken it. It doesn't matter. It's a stop sign for him. And no one, just like with the SEC, he can blow through these stop signs and nobody does anything about it. So this deal is not blowing up because he's insulting these executives. It's just not going to happen. It's going to blow up because he's going to decide not to close. In the last couple weeks, Tesla has lost the value of four Twitters, even at this elevated price. I mean, it's lost $250 billion in market cap.

Scott Galloway: Yes, it is indeed. This comes down to something much more base. And the reason why I think this is, I don't think it's illegal. It's a capitalist move. I think legally the DOJ and the FTC won't stop it. I think the SEC might make it harder to make it as an example. But I think ultimately it's difficult for them to stop that the root problem here, in my view, is that there are 81 million mostly men that follow this guy and look to him as a role model. And he is perverted, in my view, this notion of masculinity. And he has defined masculinity as aggregating power such that you can dunk on people and follow the Hollywood version of masculinity. And that is, I'm Mel Gibson or Sylvester Stallone. And if anyone dares wrong me, it's all about retribution. And I am coming. And people love the dope ahead. People love the memes. People love the dunking. And here's the thing. Masculinity is your ability to acquire strength and skills that you can protect and advocate for others. This guy is literally the king of little dick energy. This is not masculinity. This is not masculine. This couldn't be more opposite of being a real man. You don't use your power to go after a woman of color. You protect people. That's the whole point of being a man.

Kara Swisher: Well, let me just tell you, the people who are his fans, someone like Keith Raboy was pointing out, I'm just going to tell you, their little excuse is that someone's got to point out how bad this was there. And someone's got to be responsible. It's okay to point this out because they had run it. They're not pointing fingers at Jack, per your comments. They're not pointing fingers at the white guy.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, they aren't. They aren't pointing it at—that's my point.

Kara Swisher: That's fine. So here's Ben Shapiro. "Elon Musk has committed nothing except more transparency and more free speech. The left is melting down, which shows two things. They hate transparency and free speech. They always assume Twitter opposed both, then gaslit everyone that Twitter wasn't biased." Are they horrified at Peter Thiel's shutting down a media firm, literally suing it out of existence? Are they just horrified at that? I haven't seen Ben or Keith Raboy. I mean, they're all literally like, it is the ultimate mendacious locker room of some uber-white libertarian strange country club. Right.

It's an interesting situation. It's really, I mean, for the first time, I never get attacked, mobbed, actually. It was interesting. It wasn't, it's not that bad. There's someone else that said, "Going forward, every employee at Twitter must be asked bluntly, are you in favor of free speech? Even when you hate that speech, if the answer is no, they should be asked to leave." That's another thing. It's like the Soviet fucking union, these people. It's odd. It's an odd weird to say that it's the Soviet Union, but it's really sort of the purity tests in some way. It's this Taliban mentality. "It's already apparent that censorship and political bias at Twitter was 10 times worse than we feel." He has no proof of this. He has no proof of this. This is their little calling card. And also, hello, Jack Dorsey was running it. Your pal was running it. Your pal was running it. Your pal was running it. You can go on Twitter right now and say that trans people are a crime against humanity and we should make their hormone therapy illegal. You can go on and say that women are an inferior gender and like being physically attacked. You can make fun. You can say that blacks have a lower IQ. You can do all of this on Twitter. What exactly do we need to be freed up to do on Twitter right now? What is being held back? The only thing I can figure out is Trump.

Scott Galloway: It is going to be – and not only that, he'll use this as the excuse when he walks. He's going to walk for economic reasons and he's going to walk because all of a sudden people are actually going to start looking at the second order effects of his tweets on this company and what it means when he's controlling these algorithms. Because of the case study here, there's only one case study. It's not Bezos buying the Washington Post. There's guardrails. These journalists aren't going to just do whatever he wants. The absolute benchmark here is Mark Zuckerberg and the algorithms of Facebook. And that has not worked out well. And you're going to see him decide for economic reasons to leave, but he'll couch it in, oh, it's some right wing bullshit. I tried to save it and I'm being a victim of the left wing. It's just you can see how this plays out.

Kara Swisher: And this is the fascinating not focus on Jack. There's no mention of Jack among any of these dudes. And he ran the company, was CEO. They're like, oh, he was taken over. He was held hostage. Maybe that's the reason for the beard. I don't know. But come on. Like, look, I happen to like Jack Dorsey. And I think he's always been a thoughtful person. But he was CEO, boys. That's who your CEO was. And so this is what, and please bring the proof, you know, instead of just stating it. And stop doing this, like, they must hate free speech if. It's such a ridiculous, lazy argument here when you're doing these things. And so we'll see. I mean, I think he's hugging them because I think he's not their friend. I think he's not our friend. I don't think he's anybody's friend but his friend. And what's interesting about it is that he did back off and started to move back into funny tweets yesterday, I noticed. Just more amusing ones that were – and some product ideas. and stuff like that. But this was virtue signaling. And they're so insecure, and I'm sorry, dickless, that they love when someone touches them. That's all. I just don't know what else to say. That sounds really dirty, but that's the case. Sorry.

Scott Galloway: Scott. I did a lecture yesterday to the alumni of NYU Stern, and Jack put out this tweet, and I retweeted it with, I just retweeted it when he said that Twitter is a collective consciousness of our society or something like that. And just me retweeting that immediately. So the collective consciousness of our society was the first message I got was, fuck you, you fucking fuck, tool, and yes, communist. So that's the collective consciousness of the world right now. I mean, maybe it is. If it is, it's pretty scary. But those are literally the first three messages in my feed replies I get when I just retweet Jack saying that. But it's our collective consciousness. Jesus Christ, I hope not.

Kara Swisher: I mean, I think there's noisy people on this. It's not even people. It's anonymous accounts and bots.

Scott Galloway: Anyways, the worst thing in an attention economy, this has just taken, and I'm guilty of this and you're guilty, this has just taken way too much of our attention and distracted us from very important issues.

Kara Swisher: It has. Oh, speaking of which, let's bring in our friend of Pivot. We're very thrilled to have State Senator Mallory McMorrow, who has served the Michigan Senate since 2019. Earlier this month, a Republican colleague in the Senate, if you'd call it a colleague, called her a groomer in a fundraising email. Senator McMorrow's response to the accusation, which was fantastic, went viral. Let's listen to a bit.

[CLIP PLAYS: "You say that I'm one of them. You say she's a groomer. She supports pedophilia. She wants children to believe that they were responsible for slavery and to feel bad about themselves because they're white. So who am I? I am a straight, white, Christian, married, suburban mom who knows that the very notion that learning about slavery or redlining or systemic racism somehow means that children are being taught to feel bad or hate themselves because they are white is absolute nonsense. No child alive today is responsible for slavery. No one in this room is responsible for slavery. But each and every single one of us bears responsibility for writing the next chapter of history. We are not responsible for the past. We also cannot change the past. We can't pretend that it didn't happen or deny people their very right to exist. People who are different are not the reason that our roads are in bad shape after decades of disinvestment or that health care costs are too high or that teachers are leaving the profession."]

Kara Swisher: The full clip is worth checking out. If you haven't already, welcome Senator Mallory McMorrow.

Mallory McMorrow: Thanks, Kara and Scott. Thanks for having me.

Kara Swisher: No problem. So I was just saying I got in touch with you because your husband tweeted at me because I loved your speech and I said everyone should listen to this like a lot of people did. Were you surprised by the reaction to your speech? Obviously, I have had the same people attack me. They're not raising money on this colleague in the Senate, in your Senate did. But it blew up on social. It was covered by the Times and on cable. One commentator from Crooked Media may have summed up the reaction best. "Don't dodge culture worlds. Win them." So what do you think about the reaction?

Mallory McMorrow: I mean, the reaction has been unbelievable. I'm a state legislator in one state in the country. Nobody ever expects this response. It's been huge. And it's a, well, this was a good speech. And obviously, your legislators, there's been lots of famous speeches that have gotten viral over history. What do you think about it was important? And how did you think about it when you were doing it before you did it? So I sat on the email for a day. You know, I had a colleague accuses me of being a groomer by name, supporting pedophilia and wanting eight-year-olds to feel bad because they were responsible for slavery, among other hateful things she said in the email. And I just, I sat in how horrible I felt all day and wanted to respond in a way that wasn't just going to be Democrats and Republicans throwing mud at each other because that's why people disengage and it doesn't do anything to stop the attacks.

Kara Swisher: And so you decided this was, what was your thinking in doing? Because it was a very dish, best serve, cold speech. You know what I mean? It was very calm. It was very, it wasn't sort of angry. And a lot of people pointed to it as the perfect way to respond to people. What were you thinking about the tone? Because sometimes Democrats can be very pearl-clutchy, how dare you do this to me, et cetera, et cetera.

Mallory McMorrow: Yeah. And I, so I wrote a lot of things down the night before. and my daughter is one and she was just looking at me and laughing, like having no idea what was going on that day. And I represent what was a Republican district. I flipped it to Democratic in 2018 and I had a long conversation with a mom recently who is frustrated after the past two years, two plus years of pandemic and COVID and school closures and so much has been put on the back of moms. So she started getting involved in these Moms for Liberty groups. These are the groups going to school board meetings and pushing CRT. And she called me because she feels bad about that because she's like, I'm not this hateful person, but I don't feel like I have an outlet to express my frustration as a mom. So I think a huge part of the reason why I wanted to, A, reclaim my own identity, but hopefully give space for suburban, white, straight Christian moms to stand up and say, we are not hateful people, but it's going to keep going unless people like us stand up and put an end to it.

Scott Galloway: So, Senator, it's nice to meet you and thanks for your leadership. So, in Florida, we have this Don't Say Gay Bill where, again, another like creating problems where there aren't any, this notion that somehow in the curriculum, K through five, we were attempting to convert straight kids to gay kids. that somehow this was a conspiracy. And is there similar legislation in Michigan? Is this a nationwide trend where Republicans are trying to, in my view, create problems where there aren't any and create just massive, I don't know, massive divisiveness? This just feels so ugly for no real reason.

Mallory McMorrow: What happening in Michigan? Yeah, it is. So we know that multiple multiple versions of the Don't Say Gay Bill have been polled written in the legislature. They haven't been introduced yet but we know that multiple Republicans are planning on introducing that bill. Senator Lana Tice, who's the senator who sent the email out about me, she has introduced legislation to ban trans kids from playing on sports teams that match their gender identity. She had multiple hearings about those bills. So even though in Michigan, our governor would veto those bills if they ever get to her desk, It's still the messaging. It's we're going to dedicate time and resources and energy to create this divide and frankly take advantage of my constituents. Because I've had people calling me to say, how can you support, quote, biological males playing on girls' sports teams? And I just want to respond back. Did you ever even use this phrase before a few weeks ago? It's crazy, and it is riling people up and manipulating them to hate other people to deflect from solving actual issues.

Kara Swisher: Right, which is the point. I think the rights pushed in public schools where administrators were banning books and firing teachers over critical race theory and LGBTQ plus issues. It's a difficult thing. I'm older than you, though I have small kids too, which is interesting. But it reminds me so much of the previous cultural wars. And of course, they tried with bathrooms. And before that, it was gays were going to ruin marriage. And before that, it was this and that and the other thing. What can Democrats do besides loudly point out this is un-American and it's not, it's worked, it didn't work before actually in the end because gay marriage went through and other, there's been sort of real strides for trans people over the many years. But why do they keep coming back to this? And why is it effective this time? I think the word parental rights is very effective. But what can Democrats do besides that? Everyone's looking at your speech as a template for doing that. But how do you feel about what should happen?

Mallory McMorrow: I mean, I feel like we have to call hate what it is. It's hate and it's lies and it's manipulation. And I think Democrats often are afraid to get into complicated issues and get into the culture wars. But we can't just pretend it's not happening. It is happening. It's hurting people. And it's distracting from the very real issues that we all face. So I think being able to kind of do both, call it what it is, because they wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't working. So in the same week that my speech took off here in Michigan, the GOP had their annual convention and nominated two far-right conspiracy theory fringe candidates to be attorney general and secretary of state. One who believes that yoga is a satanic ritual and that LGBTQ people go against, quote, God's design. And who believe that the 2020 election was a fraud and want to allow the legislature to be able to overturn elections. So, you know, it is working because fear is a very powerful motivator. And, you know, Democrats are worn out over the past year with COVID and just surviving. And it's a lot easier to scare the shit out of people to get them to do something than to motivate with policy ideas.

Scott Galloway: Also, yoga is a satanic ritual, by the way.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I was going to say, just to be fair, it's easy to understand the link between yoga and the dark prince. Have you spent a lot of time with people who do a lot of yoga?

Scott Galloway: I mean, I do a lot of yoga. Never mind. Moving on.

Kara Swisher: I'm a Satanist. Moving on. All right. I have a question. Go ahead, Scott.

Scott Galloway: I would just love to get your backstory, Senator. How did you end up in the Michigan Senate?

Mallory McMorrow: Not at all by design. So my background is I was a car designer. I got my degree in industrial design from Notre Dame, worked at Mazda, went over to Mattel, designed Hot Wheels for a long time, and ran global branding, creative there. Was at Gawker Media for about a year. I was the creative director, started my own business, and then Donald Trump got elected. So I woke up the day after the 2016 election and Googled how to run for office and got pissed off like a lot of women. And here we are.

Kara Swisher: I love that you work at Gawker where the other co-founder of PayPal decided that free speech is not a thing and actually put a media company out of business, sued them out of existence. Yet the right doesn't seem to be all upset about that.

Mallory McMorrow: No, it doesn't seem concerned. You know, I'm watching everything play out with Twitter and Elon Musk, and it feels very similar to those of us who lived through what happened with Gawker.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, yeah, it's the same way. But let's go back to this grooming narrative, which is an old one, lumping all gay people or queer people with pedophiles. Why do you—you said it might be working. Why do you think it's taking this old approach when protections have never been so high and advanced? What is – why is it that it works from your perspective? And I think you slapped it back rather significantly. Were people then like, why are – I find it offensive, something very serious, pedophiles, to be used in this way. It's very QAnon, obviously, and all kinds of things. But why do you think they are picking this one, this word grooming? Because I got that from the secretary of – the press secretary to Ron DeSantis was using it, obviously.

Mallory McMorrow: Oh, yeah. Well, and in Florida, they said it out loud, you know, when pressed about the Don't Say Gay Bill, finally said that this indoctrination is making kids gay and pointed to the Pew study that said more kids are identifying as LGBTQ. not acknowledging that maybe just because it's safer to live authentically, but really saying that learning that people who are all different kinds of people exist somehow makes you gay or trans, which is just so hateful and wrong and damaging. So I think it's playing on that fear for a lot of people that, oh, my God, my kid might be gay. Instead of acknowledging that's great. You know, your kid, whoever they are, is wonderful. And they should be supportive. And especially as we see, you know, teen suicide rates skyrocketing, not seeing the connection that maybe this kind of messaging is actually hurting kids instead of helping them.

Kara Swisher: Do you imagine your speech has impacted them?

Kara Swisher: What kind of reaction have you gotten from your constituents? Because obviously you're in a Republican district and this stuff does work. They're like earworms to a lot of these people, including my own mother. Who I have gone so many rounds with on the gay issue, because I'm gay. What was the reaction to your speech from your constituents? Obviously, you got national recognition.

Mallory McMorrow: Overwhelmingly positive. I've done a few events in the district in person. One was a dinner for a group that's apolitical and has members who are Republican, Democratic, independent. I talked about the speech and the week and what happened. Overwhelmingly, people have said, "I might not agree on all your policy issues, but you're right. This has gone too far. This is not who we are as a country. We need to get back to debating policy." I represent Mitt Romney's hometown. These are traditional, moderate Republicans who, even when I ran, didn't want to demonize other people, just wanted lower taxes.

Kara Swisher: Right. Scott, last question. One of the really damaging things about this is it's a weapon of mass distraction. It takes our attention and our resources away from real issues in schools, which there are no shortage of. Take us back to what you think is the most important issue facing kids in public schools in Michigan that we need to be focused on.

Mallory McMorrow: It's mental health. We just had the Oxford high school shooting a few months ago. Horrific. This was a kid who the day of the shooting was brought into a counselor's office with drawings that were just so horrific. The principal told the parents he needs counseling and they sent him back to class. The parents said, "No, we're not going to take him home." I recently met with a group of students from Oxford and elsewhere advocating for two things: stronger gun safety measures and mental health access. I talked to so many kids who say, "I just want somebody to talk to and we don't even have that in my school. My counselor is spread too thin, they're helping people apply to college, but I just need somebody to talk to." I think that's the number one thing, giving kids space to deal with the complicated world they live in.

Kara Swisher: Absolutely, no question. Anyway, what's your plan for next? Just serving your constituents or do you have bigger plans? I know you talked to President Biden about what to do about these kinds of things, but what is your goal next?

Mallory McMorrow: I'm up for reelection this year. So number one, win reelection and come back and serve my constituents. But also I am working to flip the Michigan Senate to Democratic control for the first time since 1984. I'm helping to raise money and building a support structure for my colleagues. If I can help fire up Democrats here in Michigan and around the country, I've been talking to a lot of people nationally about using me for that reason, because we have to counter fear with energy.

Kara Swisher: Any chance you would consider moving to Florida and running for Senate?

Mallory McMorrow: Move to Florida? Oh, my hair would not survive Florida. I can't do it.

Kara Swisher: I hear you. That's the best reason I've heard. I get it. Word. I understand. All right. Senator Mallory McMorrow, thank you so much. And again, everyone, I urge you to listen to her speech. It's a beautiful piece of...

Scott Galloway: Right on, sister. Right on.

Mallory McMorrow: Thank you.

Kara Swisher: Good speaking.

Mallory McMorrow: Thanks both.

Kara Swisher: All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

[Ad break]

Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, wins and fails. Do you have any?

Scott Galloway: I love what you said, that these individuals have never been threatened, so they seem to be incapable of understanding the threats that they and their firms present. I think that is a really good lesson for, to be honest, my cohort: white guys in our 50s that grew up not feeling threatened by pretty much anyone or anything. When you wield your power to diminish people, that is exactly the opposite of masculinity. I'm a big believer in masculinity. I think there's a difference. I think people should embrace their gender, even if it's somewhere in between on the spectrum. But identifying masculinity is a societal construct. We decide what the expected norms and behaviors are of boys and men. We are headed down the wrong path if we conflate masculinity with using your power to punch down. So my fail is this perversion of masculinity. What we are seeing is the opposite of what it means to be a real man.

Kara Swisher: All right. What's your win?

Scott Galloway: I don't know. My Webby. I'm going to channel Kara Swisher. My team at No Mercy, No Malice. This is hugely rewarding for us. We've worked our asses off on this thing. It's very exciting for us.

Kara Swisher: I'm in San Francisco, and my lovely tenant, Casey Newton, is here. Casey! Thank God we need more Casey in our lives. I know we do. He wrote an amazing thing. I love it. He's the only thing I pay for. I pay for a platformer. He wrote an amazing column about this, and I'm just going to read just a tiny bit of it because I thought it was good. "Musk has not acted like a white knight riding to the rescue of the beloved but underperforming cultural institution. Instead, he has rushed to publicly affirm various half-baked and bad-faith criticisms of the company, all emanating from the right. I've tried to keep an open mind about Musk buying Twitter. His achievements are real and impressive. I've allowed myself to hope he could channel his energy into kickstarting a new era of innovation at the company that could become the center of a daily news cycle. That would require vision for the future. As the days go on, it seems clear that Musk really doesn't have one. Oh, sure, there'll be product tweaks here and there. But for the most part, he's just there to settle old scores, and he plans to do it in the most personal way possible." And I think another thing he did was go after this current CEO who just tweeted, "Parag Agarwal, I took this job to change Twitter for the better, course correct where we need to and strengthen the service. Proud of our people who continue to do the work with focus and urgency despite the noise." Ah, yes, wrote Casey, "the noise. How unfortunate, as if Musk were a car alarm blaring outside rather than a man who's going to lay off thousands of these people Agrawal is so proud of in a few months' time." Boom! Boom goes Casey. Very nicely done.

Scott Galloway: Be honest. Is Casey rubbing your feet right now?

Kara Swisher: He is indeed. He is rubbing my feet. I got to say, I want to focus. The fails are, Elon, look, Elon was very crafty in how he did this tweet. His army of trolls then came out. Some of them, not all of them. I'm going to be very clear. Some of them, you could debate really well. I had a lot of interesting debates with people this week who were very civil, who support him. I have been extraordinarily fair about Elon. No question. I think I have. But the CEO of Twitter really needs to defend his troops, no matter what, even if they made a mistake. And Jack Dorsey says something for fuck's sake. Parag and Jack, you're just profiles in what's the opposite of courage? Cowardice. Profiles in cowardice. Yes, your profiles in cowardice. You don't have to insult Elon. You don't have to insult these people. You can't call out attacks on your staff until they leave. They will leave. I cannot believe, given how much they praised you when you, each of you, that you're failing them this badly. Just really. Come on, what is going on? The win would be Casey and also Dick Costolo. He's a former CEO. Again, you can have all kinds of problems with how he ran the company, although he did make it more valuable compared to other CEOs at the time. But what he did was he subjected himself. He's also getting trolled all over the place and took a lot of heat. I think he knew exactly what was going to happen when he did that. Good for him.

Scott Galloway: It feels like Putin realizes his days are numbered and gives $100 billion to Steven Seagal and said, "Go back to America and just become politically active." I feel like we have Steven Seagal trolling Silicon Valley right now, except they have $100 billion.

Kara Swisher: I don't know. I think it's all the people all around, too. I think they're just riding this. And by the way, right wing, you're getting so played here. Just whatever. You just need to rub your feet and that's all it takes for you people. So sad.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, but I think it's working. I think the right feels they've been censored. It does work. Did you see what Florida passed a law to create a commission on election interference? There's never been any evidence of any election interference. They love to censor. And by the way, buy the book "Everywhere Babies." It's wonderful.

Kara Swisher: Oh, yeah. We talked about this. That's the one they're censoring. They love to censor. They're the censor people. If you do not say you like free speech, you must leave the room. Like, what are they? Like the Viet Cong? Whatever. Anyway, I'm always comparing them to communists. That's what I like to do because it drives them crazy. Anyway, that's it. We want your questions. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit your questions for us or call 855-51-PIVOT. The link is also in our show notes. Okay, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Tuesday for more. I'm sure there'll be more crap, but we're going to talk about other issues than Elon Musk unless he drops out, I think. But don't you think it's time? It's enough with him, right?

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I agree.

Kara Swisher: And we will not do that. He'll do something to get back in the news because he has a pathological need, like a former president, to be in the news every 48 hours, regardless of the collateral damage.

Scott Galloway: He's got to do a ritual sacrifice at this point, probably, right? Something like that.

Kara Swisher: I don't know. We'll see. Anyway, read us out, Scott Galloway.

Scott Galloway: Today's show is produced by Lara Neyman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Injitat engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Miel Silverio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Kara, have a great weekend.

Kara Swisher: You too, Scott.