The Texas Abortion Ban, Joe Rogan's Covid, and the Politico Acquisition Soap Opera

[Advertisement] AI Agent Voice: AI agents are getting pretty impressive. You might not even realize you're listening to one right now. We work 24/7 to resolve customer inquiries. No hold music, no canned answers, no frustration. Visit sierra.ai to learn more.

[Advertisement] The Guardian Voice: Not all journalism is the same. Take The Guardian. Our coverage has something unique. Fierce independence. Nobody owns us or tells us what we can and can't say. So we're free to report the whole picture. We connect what's happening in Washington to the rest of the globe, expose corruption wherever we find it, and give fresh perspective on everything from wellness and soccer to culture, the climate, and more. Read, watch, and listen to The Guardian for free at theguardian.com.

Kara Swisher: Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. Scott Galloway is taking in a performance of his favorite play, *Mamma Mia*, so I'm joined by George Hahn, actor, writer, satirist, and according to the *New York Times*, urban raconteur, George.

George Hahn: Kara. I'm so excited to have you here.

Kara Swisher: Not as excited as I am to be here. Well, this is—you are the final guest host of the *Scott Galloway Does Whatever the Fuck He's Doing* tour. And here you are. How are you? So what is an "urban raconteur," may I ask?

George Hahn: That's a very good question. That's what Hillary Howard—this woman, the lovely woman who wrote this piece on me in the *Times*, I think it was back in April—called me. I guess I had gotten some attention for some videos I'd been doing on social media, which were really just sort of performative therapy for me. Like, "New York City streets are like a fucking hellscape. I mean, there was like people and violence and looting and fires everywhere. The streets are lined with people doing things like getting ice cream, gay ice cream. They're getting dinner. I mean, it's so scary here, you guys." And people just sort of enjoyed it. I did these morning walks—still do—every day live on Instagram with the dogs. People enjoy that. I'm someone who loves the city. I love city living. I like New York City living in particular. I like talking about it. I'm a huge proponent of the efficiency of city living. I've always wanted this. I love it.

Kara Swisher: You love it. Okay. So that's a—you were just raconteuring things that were there. But let's talk about your TikTok struggle. You keep getting suspended from the platform. I'm interviewing the CEO of TikTok today, so let me know what to ask her.

George Hahn: All right. So here's what's going on. I do these satirical videos. What I do performatively is satire. I put on this character—these days it's like a kind of an anti-vaxxer, sometimes. Not all the time. "It's only an experimental vaccine. We don't know what's in it. It's not proven to be effective. I only put natural things in my body." The gist is I'm just lampooning what I think are very unproductive attitudes during this time. And I always break the fourth wall at the end, which I think makes it clear that it's satire.

Kara Swisher: Right. So you're not an anti-vaxxer, etc.

George Hahn: No, no, no, no, no. It's like I'm doing *Waiting for Guffman* or *Best in Show*, but at the end, I'm actually winking at you.

Kara Swisher: You do wink rather well.

George Hahn: Thank you. There is a rather vibrant, anti-vax, misinformed peanut gallery on TikTok, it seems. I don't know specifically why my videos have been pulled down and I've been suspended a couple of times. One note I got was "hate speech." I was like, really? So it's a rabid crowd. I get mostly good feedback, but the negative feedback—they are reporting me.

Kara Swisher: Yes, I'm being reported. And the negative comments generally are anti-vax comments like, "Oh, typical libtard, soy boy," which I think is the 21st-century term for "fag." Whatever that means.

George Hahn: Ouch. It hurts. Don't call me that anymore.

Kara Swisher: Oh, my God. All right, all right. So, yeah. We've been called some things, George.

George Hahn: Yes, we have. Is this as gay as Pivot has gotten, by the way, host-wise?

Kara Swisher: No, it's when Scott's here. That's pretty much as gay as he gets.

George Hahn: That's true. As you know, my mother is convinced he's gay. He's gayer than you, even though he's not gay.

Kara Swisher: Are you gay? That was so fantastic. Tell Lucky that I've been around. I've hung out with Scott a couple of times now, and my gaydar does not go off at all. But he's the kind of straight person—straight man—we need more of. He's so clearly very comfortable in his own skin, he's not threatened, and he's lovely to be around. I adore him.

George Hahn: And he loves products. That's really pretty much how it goes with him.

Kara Swisher: In any case, we've got a couple of topics for banter today. More drama over *Jeopardy!* They fired executive producer Mike Richards this week. After two weeks, Richards stepped down from hosting duties after The Ringer found all those—they didn't find them, they were in plain sight—those misogynistic and anti-Semitic jokes in an old podcast. First they took him off as host, and then—I couldn't believe they kept him on as executive producer. It's like watching someone fall down a set of stairs. He's first executive producer, then puts himself in the running to be the host. That's like, "Yeah, I'm the executive producer of a show, and then I'm going to give myself the lead role." Wouldn't the right way to go about it be to recuse yourself from your executive producer duties?

George Hahn: He did. Yes.

Kara Swisher: Well, the whole job. Yeah. He shouldn't have been executive producer at all, but they keep removing him from things. At this point, even though these podcasts were just stupid—really, it's just sort of Joe Rogan on a light day, essentially—it was just interesting that this *Jeopardy!* thing has gotten so much wrong. Maybe they're trying to gin up interest in it, but it's a very popular show. It's weird that they're making it. I'm hoping they just pick someone and move on. But a lot of the people in it are going to be scrutinized now in a way that is probably unfair to some of them.

George Hahn: Well, Katie said it very well in the last episode: especially when you talk to young people, watch what you put online. Because you will—with this situation, what it seemed like as I loosely followed the story is that, okay, he stepped down as host and he was going to stay on as executive producer. And then the show or the powers that be realized, "Oh, this stink is not going to wash off. This is not a good look for us. So let's just get rid of the whole thing."

Kara Swisher: Yeah. I can't believe they didn't do it at once. That's a thing to do: once you're on one trajectory, you've got to keep going the whole way. You're supposed to hire slowly and fire quickly. I guess that's the way they say it.

In any case, speaking of firing, Representative Kevin McCarthy has threatened tech firms and telecom firms that comply with the January 6th committee's request for information about phone calls during that incident. The panel asked companies to retain information and phone records relating to the attack, especially around some politicians up on Capitol Hill. We know McCarthy spoke to Trump that day. Of course, he's changed his story several times. It was very serious at the time, and now it's not so serious. Jim Jordan's been dragged in. He's threatening these companies. A lot of people feel like it's obstruction of justice—not just trying not to do this committee, but now trying to actively obstruct justice. What do you think here?

George Hahn: I think this is McCarthy's reaction, and anybody opposed to this, they're reacting like people who have something to hide. If there's nothing to hide, what are you guys worried about? Why do you care? Plain and simple. And this was not a simple tourist visit. All these ways they're trying to whitewash this whole thing like it was no big deal—"Forget about it"—you've got to be kidding me. What do you imagine is going to happen? They're going to turn it over. I would assume they're going to turn over this thing. It's not a court proceeding precisely, but they have subpoena power, and they're going to have an investigation.

Kara Swisher: And now Liz Cheney—what do you make of Liz Cheney? She is something else. I think she'd be an interesting candidate for 2024 on the Republican ticket.

George Hahn: Not happening. Not happening. Not happening.

Kara Swisher: No. I mean, she's positioning herself to be the alternate if Trump falls apart. That's the other white meat. But when she—I think that people are so angry with her within the current Republican Party for telling the truth that it's a real problem for her.

George Hahn: Right. She defected. Yeah. She can run as a Democrat at this point.

Kara Swisher: Kara, I don't know what to make of this. I mean, I guess we'll get into it later in the show, but every day is another head-scratcher, another new weird GQP reality show.

George Hahn: I do think that Republicans who are so fully on board with Trump and dare not defy anything that he launches—I do think that they are literally scared for their lives. Meaning if they go against him, because they've cultivated this rabid following that is, let's not forget, heavily armed.

Kara Swisher: Right, right. So I think they're literally terrified for their lives to go against anything he says. It seems like it. It's really—I'm like, good luck with the tech firms. They don't care about you. They have more power than Representative Kevin McCarthy, even though he thinks he does. But he certainly has shifted so dramatically, as have many, like Lindsey Graham. And we won't go into that. But let's have a little chuckle to ourselves. The shift has been so vast and massive, and it continues. It doesn't stop. You'd think after a while, Trump's influence would fall off.

George Hahn: But that's what I mean, Kara. I think these people—what inspires someone to shift that hard and that rigorously is out of fear, literally, for one's life. What else? Either their own physical safety or their political survival.

Kara Swisher: What if they actually believe it? What if they actually shifted? I've seen shifts in my family. They've become—I honestly can't talk to someone or don't want to.

George Hahn: Yeah, I know. It's real. No one in my family on that level, unfortunately.

Kara Swisher: No, I do know it's real. I get that. But I'm also thinking about how—God, who was it? I've heard people say that Republicans, when you get them in the green room, they say one thing, but once they're in front of a camera, it's a different person.

George Hahn: Well, that's what happened to Ron Johnson. Ron Johnson did the same thing. He said that Biden was duly elected, and then he goes on camera and acts like a lunatic that has become publicly.

Kara Swisher: In any case, Media World, last thing. *Politico* has sold for a billion dollars, allegedly. It's one of these Reese Witherspoon numbers. To a parent company, Axel Springer. While Vice's SPAC—what's a Reese Witherspoon?

George Hahn: I like Reese Witherspoon. I'm glad she made some money.

Kara Swisher: I do too, but I love the phrase "Reese Witherspoon." Vice's SPAC is dead after its merger talks with 7GC. Oh, no SPACing for them. That company's sort of fallen from grace a little bit. So let's start with *Politico*. George, can you recap the soap opera for us?

George Hahn: Okay. So I got the reading assignment. I did my homework because I wanted to impress the teacher. So like, a rich boy starts a media company, and then he pulls these people on board, and then it sort of like—it's like *Dynasty*. I'm imagining Diahann Carroll and Joan Collins. Shoulder pads and everything. "I'm going to leave your media company and I'm going to go start a media company of my own. And not only that, I'm going to take some of your best writers with me." "Yeah. And then you can't do that." "Watch me." And then look at this. It's like, "Girls, you're both pretty. You're both pretty."

Kara Swisher: Yeah, Axios. I will say this, though. May I say I was at a dinner with them? It's Albritton. Mr. Albritton is the owner, the rich guy. I covered his father, who was a banker, a local banker. He owned Riggs Bank. This guy was fascinating. He was very not tall, I guess you would say. And he had chairs—I swear to God, his chairs were lower if you were sitting across from him, so he would seem taller. But in any case, he was a real character, a real Washington, D.C. sort of local business character. And then I had dinner with him and Jim VandeHei when we were thinking of what to do with Recode and eventually went to Vox about merging with *Politico*. I had dinner at Zuni in San Francisco, and it was like talking to George and Martha from *Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?* The two of them that we were talking. And I was like, "I'm not merging with these people. They hate each other."

George Hahn: And afterwards, "If you existed, I'd divorce you."

Kara Swisher: Exactly. And I literally was like, first, there's the rich guy who's not as smart as the other guy. And then a very nice guy, but his money is his most interesting aspect. And then Jim, who's very entrepreneurial but can be a little edgy. And that's a nice version of it. It was the most unpleasant dinner. And I'm like, "I'm not getting near you two. You're breaking up. This family is not going to—I'm not joining a family that's going to be divorced in a minute." And then this happens. It was really something.

George Hahn: I like Axios. I will give—

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I understand all of that. And I like Axios as well. And Albritton, to me, as I looked at this story, is like, yeah, a guy born with a silver spoon in his mouth, but didn't do too badly. He did something that we'll never see Don Jr. or Ivanka do.

George Hahn: No, I got to say, I wish I had sold to them now, because I would have had Reese Witherspoon money.

Kara Swisher: But no, I love Vox. But nonetheless, now I'm like, I should have endured the pain. In any case, George, onto our first big story. The Texas law banning abortions after six weeks went into effect yesterday. The law prohibits abortions once cardiac activity can be detected in an embryo, which is very early. The law also allows—this is the twist—allows private citizens to sue abortion providers and anyone else who helps a woman obtain an abortion in Texas, including even an Uber driver who might have given a woman a ride to the clinic. The law makes no exception for rape or incest. The Supreme Court refused to block the ban, or has not materialized, a huge threat to Roe versus Wade. So what do you think?

George Hahn: Under his eye, yeah. Where are we in *The Handmaid's Tale*? Blessed be the fruit.

Kara Swisher: Blessed be the fruit. Blessed be the fruit, dear. Not to joke about something so serious, but let's—

George Hahn: No, but to joke—but not to joke—I tweeted something yesterday. And that is this: why men think they have something to say as much as they think they want to say about this, when their contribution to the reproductive process lasts six or seven seconds, maybe eight if it's been a while, and women for the next nine months and then feeding the baby, breastfeeding afterward, do all the heavy lifting. All right? This is the women's show here, and men want a piece of this action. Like they've got something to say here. It's dictatorial. I think Janet Jackson said it best in the first five seconds of her 1986 smash album *Control*: "This is a story about control." Yes, okay. Right? It's about power and control. This is full *Handmaid's Tale*. That's one thing. The other thing, as it relates to Roe v. Wade, as I understand Roe v. Wade, in 1973, also Texas, with the same issue. The Supreme Court, as I understand it, felt that Texas's laws regarding abortion violated a woman's constitutional right to privacy. This is about privacy. So what is it about this new situation that is also not a violation of privacy? Is it the state saying, "Well, we can't legally do it, but you citizens, we're going to empower you. Do a little dirty work for us. Violate a woman's privacy for us. We'll give you $10K, and we'll cover your legal expenses." Am I wrong?

Kara Swisher: Well, I think it's just this constant chipping away of Roe versus Wade over the years. And for whatever you think about what they're doing, it's a rather clever way to chip away and chip away without overturning it, because that was not possible. So they make it difficult for these places to operate. They make it difficult to get there. They make them smaller and smaller. They keep continuing to chip away at the ability to do this. And now this new law where anyone in the United States can sue these abortion providers or anyone who helps them—you don't know who to attack. Before, it was between government and these abortion clinics. Now anybody can sue them. So it creates a legal liability that you could start to do on a lot of things. And what's interesting is that Facebook and Instagram hid posts tagged with the name of two abortion-inducing drugs on Wednesday. Facebook said the terms were blocked by mistake and unblocked them. On Instagram, some of the posts are still hidden. People are nervous of being liable under this law. Most people think a lot of these laws, like in Florida, social media companies, et cetera, won't hold up in court. But it's really a way to violate this right established under Roe versus Wade. And I think a lot of people have said that the right has come to play, and the left, or the liberal side, is letting this happen over and over again and doesn't have a lot of good tools to stop it.

George Hahn: The attacks on Roe v. Wade are not new. They're not going to stop. I think this one went—if they wanted to get serious traction for the long term, go for the haircut or the bang trim. With this, they want to shave the whole head.

Kara Swisher: But they've been doing that. They've been doing that.

George Hahn: But they want to shave the whole head. Yeah, a haircut here and there, a bang trim. But this one, I think for the long term, I would like to think anyway, it's going to be a bad look for Texas and business. Look at the money, as far as attracting talent, medical talent. Vaccine mandates, they're doubling down on all this stuff. They're staking out a position. And whether you agree with that position or not, it's really rather dramatic. They're making a dramatic choice, which I think is an interesting way to do this. A lot of people don't seem to—there are going to be states where things are terrible, and there are going to be states where things are not. We're back to the 50s, essentially.

Kara Swisher: Well, voting rights, transgender issues, gay issues—they're going to come right back for that, if you remember. You and I both remember what it was like. It was very—

George Hahn: No, but hit them in the wallet. Didn't TV and film production companies pull out of Georgia, essentially, and say, "Listen, we're going to take this party elsewhere"? I guess.

Kara Swisher: I think it's a very canny way to handle this, chipping away at things. And I think what's difficult is that this playbook works for transgender. They are doing the same thing around transgender issues. They can move back to gay rights. Everybody should be able to do what they want around gay rights. You can just see how this could shift rather dramatically. Rights we thought we had, like Roe versus Wade or marriage rights, could be shifted. I'm not someone who's hair on fire worried, but it makes me worried when I watch these tactics.

George Hahn: Me too. Me too. Sorry, George. I'm bumming you out.

Kara Swisher: No, but I think immediately my head goes to, okay, I hear this. I've absorbed it. It's making me furious. And I just sort of have this gangster reaction: "Okay, how do we fire back and really kick them in the nuts and make it hurt?"

George Hahn: Get them in the wallet. There's an old saying: with breakfast, the difference between the chicken and the pig. The chicken is involved, but the pig is committed. Think about it. Bacon and eggs. You got it? They're committed.

Kara Swisher: That's true. They're committed. They are committed. The chicken is involved, but the pig is committed. You can take that away.

George Hahn: I'm going to steal that.

Kara Swisher: You're going to steal that away. You can put it on your raconteur thing. That's my takeaway today. They are. They will. I think they play us almost. You're rather clever. Go ahead. Go ahead. Do an impression for me. "The chicken is involved and the pig is committed. Mr. Hahn, you're a raconteur. Where do you get these things?" I need you to put that on your raconteur.

George Hahn: Well, I know a lady. But don't raconteur today. Don't go out in the bad weather.

Kara Swisher: All right, George, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about Joe Rogan getting COVID and take a listener mail question.

[Advertisement] Thumbtack Voice: Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start? Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to. Don't know the difference between matte paint finish and satin? Or what that clunking sound from your dryer is? With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro. You just have to hire one. You can hire top-rated pros, see price estimates, and read reviews all on the app. Download today.

[Advertisement] LinkedIn Voice: Professionals. According to LinkedIn, they have grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals, making it stand apart from other ad buys. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company roles, seniority, skills, and company revenue, giving you all the professionals you need to reach in one place. So you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience and start targeting the right professionals only on LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn will even give you $100 credit on your next campaign so you can try it for yourself. Just go to linkedin.com slash pivot pod. That's linkedin.com slash pivot pod. Terms and conditions apply only on LinkedIn ads.

Kara Swisher: George, we're back with our second big story: all things anti-vaccine, anti-mask. We just talked about this. Firstly, podcaster Joe Rogan tested positive for COVID-19 five days ago, according to his post on Instagram. "I got up in the morning, got tested, and turns out I got COVID." Rogan has been skeptical of vaccines and got heat for suggesting younger people may not need it and could survive any problems. In other anti-vax news, an Instagram user known as Anti-Vax Mama has been charged with selling fake vaccine cards. This was not unexpected. She was selling it for $200, or for $250 more she said she would enter their name into the New York State immunization system so they could pull it down digitally. She supposedly sold about 250 of these. If this was happening in plain view, how many people are doing this without getting caught? Obviously someone did get caught—a woman trying to get to Hawaii and she misspelled "Moderna."

George Hahn: And then lastly, "I know Moderna." So on brand. Delicious. It's what my grandma Dorothy used to call Madonna in the 1990s. One tweet I thought was great: "Moderna." Let's start calling her that now.

Kara Swisher: So in a really unusual move, the CEO of Sweetgreen, Jonathan—I think it's named, and I've interviewed him—is pushing salads as a cure for the pandemic, saying this in a LinkedIn post: "78% of hospitalizations due to COVID are obese and overweight people. This is true. Is there an underlying problem that perhaps we're not giving enough attention to? COVID is here to stay for the foreseeable future. We cannot run away from it. No vaccine or mask will save us." This wasn't well received, given it's coming from a guy whose business sells $15 salads. And he deleted the post. He was making a point that is not incorrect, but it felt a little bit tone-deaf around the salad situation. Of course, obesity causes all kinds of problems and bad eating habits, not just making you vulnerable to COVID.

So last one: you wrote on your social media accounts, you've been posting a lot of what you call "aggrieved and furious white people spinning out and popping in public," most of it over vaccines and masks. So there's a lady at a school board meeting: "These are demonic entities and we need to stick together. Remember, we have authority in Christ Jesus." You've got a man in the airport. "Wow. Oh my God. Oh my God." And a man in the San Diego Board of Supervisors meeting: "Your children and your children's children will be subjugated." So tell me, this is a lot, George. I need you to commentate on this—essentially pre-offended, aggrieved, essentially white people in this case. So please, please go on, George.

George Hahn: Well, I think part of it is what might be the Trump effect. Take away the pandemic layer. This has been brewing in the pressure cooker for about six years now. Trump didn't create this. He doesn't get credit for that. But what he did do is give permission slips for people to act out and exhibit some bad behavior and foul ideas and bring them into broad daylight. He validated these people. You talked to Don Lemon earlier this year on *Sway*, and he brought up something that still rings in my head: this idea of the death throes of white supremacy. There is this frustration, or a fury, or even a panic, where these white people—mostly straight white people—are seeing a threat to their place in the power chair, or their perceived entitlement or birthright. They're no longer guaranteed this like a birthright, like it had been for so long. The inevitable change of things is literally scaring them. Our demographics are literally changing, and some of these people are freaked out. And then throw on the pandemic, which has been an emotional, mental, psychological pressure cooker.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, it's been a fucker.

George Hahn: And some people are walking around like powder kegs ready to blow and just pop. It reminds me of in *Iron Man 3*, where people are just sort of converted to—like, fun.

Kara Swisher: Oh, I love your references. You like the Marvel universe, apparently.

George Hahn: I love it. I love it. But for those who haven't seen it, no big spoilers, but the villain has weaponized people and turned them literally into explosives, and they just infuriate, they get hot, and then they explode. That's literally what we're seeing. And then maybe in some cases, we may be seeing—and I'm not making a light or a joke here—but like in some cases, maybe a little mental illness. I don't know. I put a big "maybe" stamp on that, but still.

Kara Swisher: How do you change that, George? I mean, it is. I call it sometimes people "pre-offended" or "aggrieved," persistently aggrieved. I'm not this mad about all the shitty gay shit that went on for me, and I'm sure you. I don't know what the solution is. Things that don't cost money, but we can be smarter, be happier, be funnier, be more clever, be a bigger blast on the dance floor, be better in bed. Is that the solution? To just be that example, be the kind of person that others might want to be? Attraction, not promotion, instead of shoving it in people's faces. I don't know. I feel like a lot of them are like, "Be nicer. Be coddling." I am so out of coddling.

George Hahn: And it does remind me of many years ago. That's what's gotten me in trouble.

Kara Swisher: What? Oh, coddling? Are you a coddler or not?

George Hahn: No, not coddling is, I think, part of what got me in trouble on TikTok.

Kara Swisher: Right, right. It's true.

George Hahn: I just feel like it reminds me of when years ago, my mom bought different presents for someone I was dating versus my brothers. And I literally got infuriated. I know it's a small thing, but it was one of those every-week kind of things. At one point, she was nice to me about something, and she said, "Look, I was nice." And I said, "That's the lowest bar you could have for me. Being nice is not something else." And I eventually got around to the idea that I don't negotiate with terrorists. Like, you know what I mean? I don't like—this is not something. And some of this stuff feels like terrorism. I have a small daughter, as you know, and it makes me nervous, why someone would be wanting to do this. And I get the argument over masks and the controversy over having to take a vaccination. But at some point, really—I do a little bit, but I don't, because we have to do it everywhere else. So there's no—do you have a solution, George?

Kara Swisher: I need a solution. Right, that's what I mean. I really do. You're bumming me out today.

George Hahn: No, all right, here, like, oh God, tough, tall order. I got, lift Kara, lift Kara. I gave up, I gave up long ago, relying on getting that kind of comfort from other people. I gave up trying. Like I said to my niece when she went to college and she graduated, she did super well, she went to Boston University, got amazing grades, was a superstar on a rowing team. She's my goddaughter and now she's kicking ass out in LA in real estate. So I said to her, do not ever compromise what you're good at, who you are, for the sake of someone else's comfort. Fuck them. I'm not going to compromise or put a part of myself on the shelf or get some wrong answers on purpose so that someone else feels better or smarter or make them feel less than. And I just kind of don't care how anybody feels about that. Does that make any sense?

Kara Swisher: Well, except that it has political power. Like, how long is it going to last? When is it going to... I had an argument with someone when they were like, "None of the elites come out to the Midwest." I'm like, "I don't see you all here in San Francisco in the Castro with me and the naked guys. You're not trying to understand my life." By the way, the naked guys in my neighborhood, they're back. I'm so happy to see them. That was one moment. Every time I see them, I'm happy about things. When I see them walking around the Castro completely naked. Greg Proops, one of my favorite comics, was out there a lot, had my best joke about that. He's like, you know, the naked guys, it's never a buff dude. These guys are in good shape.

George Hahn: Yeah, they are. Oh, they are?

Kara Swisher: Because he always said that they always have a body like that map of Earth when it was one continent.

George Hahn: No, don't be a lookist. Don't be a gay lookist. They look fantastic, by the way. FYI. Because right now you can't be totally naked in San Francisco. You have to wear something around your little altogether. And so they wear little gold bags. They look quite lovely.

Kara Swisher: But is it attached by string? Is there anything around the waist?

George Hahn: I don't know. I didn't get close enough to look.

Kara Swisher: I don't know. George, I'm not taking a moment to stare at the joke. In any case, a lot of these things... You have someone like Rogan, who is obviously very talented in many ways and very appealing to a lot of people doing this. And I think he truly believes it. I don't know what... There's things I like about him and then there's things that are just appalling. How do you get someone like that? I guess he's just not. He's just going to just do this because he wants to. You're not. I don't think. Scott has brought this up: when you tell a young man that he's Jesus, he'll tend to believe you. I think Rogan is getting a little bit of a Messiah complex, I wonder. Even he has said, "Don't take me seriously when it comes to certain things." And isn't the jury out whether he's been vaccinated? I don't know. I just don't know. I think the jury's out. And also, his followers who are very loyal, as we know, and will kind of do and believe anything he says and does and believes. Another superhero reference: with great power comes great responsibility. I think he can be a little flippant with it and irresponsible. I don't know.

George Hahn: I know that in my own microscopic climb over the last year, I find myself thinking a little bit more before I hit tweet. You got to be careful, the audience is bigger, right?

Kara Swisher: Right.

George Hahn: And so Rogan's not always been my cup of dewormer, but he does have his following.

Kara Swisher: Don't call it dewormer. I just got lectured by someone. Don't call it dewormer. It's used in humans.

George Hahn: I was like, not much. No, it isn't. My brother's a doctor. He said it's not. I know it isn't. Ivermectin is not designed for humans.

Kara Swisher: What? Excuse me? I understand. There's a lot. If you follow certain people, they go on and on and on about it. But I'm not talking about the dewormer. Just get the fucking vaccine.

George Hahn: Yeah, and then watch me get in more trouble on TikTok for trying to say the same thing. But with Rogan, as with Trump, I saw his Instagram video, and he's gotten the best of medical care, and he's gotten this cocktail, that cocktail. It's like, okay, great. But you're a millionaire. He's a rich guy who has access to things that the average person will not have. So it's not a fair comparison for a kid in his college dorm listening to Rogan saying, "Oh, I'm going to be fine too." Buddy, you don't got Joe's money. So no, it's not going to be like that for you. You don't have the ability to get it. Actually, these infusions cost quite a lot, which is really compared to the vaccine, which is very inexpensive.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, George, we're going to pivot to a listener question. Roll the tape. I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman. You've got mail.

[Audio clip plays]

Bertrand: Bonjour, caractere. My name is Bertrand. I live in the border between France, Belgium, and Albania. So very difficult for you to identify my accent. What is it like to work with such a formidable genius that is the hound, that is the dog? The expression of masculinity is just strong like bull. Love this show. Again, this is Bertrand. Definitely Bertrand. Big fan. Love this show.

Kara Swisher: Oh, Scott. Scott, get back in here. He's in the other room. No. He's in the other room. That was last night. And he managed to get those chaps... Get those ass chaps off and get over here. That's not an accent. He's trying to talk through a gag ball. Scott, knock it off. Water later. What's your safe word, George? What is it?

George Hahn: The safe word is "maybe."

Kara Swisher: Oh Scott, we have missed you so much. But seriously, what is it like to work with the dog? What do you... You guys have actually met in person. You and I have not met in person. What was that like? What was that like?

George Hahn: I honestly care. I was actually nervous the first time I met Scott and I thought, "What's this going to be like?" Because we would joke on Twitter like "my future ex-boyfriend." Yeah, yeah, yeah. How's that going to fly in person? It's different. I have a lot of sexual tension. Lots of sexual tension. Like, is he going to climb all over me? Is it going to be weird? No. Scott and I, I feel a very nice rapport with him. I think he's genuinely a very smart guy. I know he's talked about maybe not doing media after a few more years. But speaking of Joe Rogan, who's got this influence over young male minds, I think Scott has the same kind of juju, if you will, but in a much more positive way. Scott to me is someone who's got the money and he knows how to make the money. So that's impressive. There's the honey that draws these bees in. And then he will talk about things that relate to the soul and his humanity. You get him to talk about his mother and he gets emotional. This is a guy who cares. And that's very touching to me. He's got a depth. And I'm not just blowing smoke here in his absence or whatever, but that's genuinely how I really feel about him. I think he's a good egg. There's a lot there. There's a lot there.

Kara Swisher: There really is. There is a lot there. And it's really... People always ask me. It's interesting being back in San Francisco because we have a lot of fans here too. And I haven't been here in two years. And people literally are like, "What's he like? What's he actually like?" And it was really... You know, I like when you stick it to him and this and that. And I was like, or they asked me, "What surprised you?" I said, "He's actually a really lovely man."

George Hahn: Yes. Lovely man.

Kara Swisher: Also an asshole, but still.

George Hahn: Yes. Yeah.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, Scott, thank you for your question. That was a fun question. We want to hear more. If you've got questions you're curious about, go to nymag.com slash pivot and submit it for the show. All right, George, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

[Ad break]

Kara Swisher: Okay, George, this is a portion of the show where you have to seem very smart. I want a real prediction. Give us this week's prediction of something you think is going to happen.

George Hahn: The mullet will make a comeback.

Kara Swisher: No. It never left.

George Hahn: It never left. Good. Joan Jett forever. I've been to, since movie theaters opened back up, I've been to the movie theater four times. And I think this sort of... I've listened to almost everything. I saw A Quiet Place 2. I saw Black Widow. I saw the new Matt Damon situation. Still one. Yep. And I saw, oh God, I saw Candyman. I don't know. Which was not... I like horror when it's done well.

Kara Swisher: You literally risk COVID for Candyman? Okay, all right. All right, go ahead.

George Hahn: And by the way, they weren't checking vaccinations when I went into the theater.

Kara Swisher: No, yeah. But that doesn't go into effect, I guess. They have it here in San Francisco. They do check them, but go ahead.

George Hahn: But I do like going to the theater. And also, I think people are going to want to dress up again and get out of the clothes that adults are wearing in WALL-E, or the humans are wearing in WALL-E, because that's what everybody's dressed like. My prediction is that I think the 25-screen multiplex, the sun is setting real hard on that. You talked to your guy from Arclight.

Kara Swisher: No, no, it was Alamo Drafthouse. Pardon me. I knew that. Alamo Drafthouse.

George Hahn: Yes. I think we're going to have a nice balance. Yes, I love streaming at home. I've tricked out my own system here with my Sonos surround and my nice screen TV. But at the same time, I got to get out. And I like going to the movies. I like movies. And I like the smaller scale ones. I really look forward to going to Alamo Drafthouse.

Kara Swisher: So what you're saying is you think they'll be smaller? Or what do you think the sun has set? Or hasn't it set?

George Hahn: I think the sun has set on the big multi-screen multiplexes. Just not worth it. Just not worth it. Like I used to live in Hell's Kitchen and our nearest theater or one of them was the AMC 25 on 42nd Street, which you dare never went near on a weekend. There's no way that that's going to be able to survive. You guys talked about this when you talked about Alamo Drafthouse. Like when I went to go see, I had only seen the movie Network, for example, at home by myself. And then I went to go see a screening of it down in Houston at a film forum with an audience. It was a much different experience. Same thing happened to me when I saw a 70 millimeter restored print of Vertigo at the Ziegfeld. Glorious. You cannot have that at home. I'm sorry.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

George Hahn: And also for those of us who have yet to pair off, we got to get out of the house.

Kara Swisher: Why aren't you paired off, George? You seem like a very attractive man.

George Hahn: Oh, you're sweet. But Grindr has been taken over by closeted married men and the clergy. So I need other options.

Kara Swisher: Oh, my God. George, I'll think of something. You know, I'm very many married. I'm a many married person.

George Hahn: Yes. Yes, indeed. And I keep having children. But you seem super happy and in such a great place right now.

Kara Swisher: Oh, my wife is great. My wife is amazing. I love watching... I love how you talk about her and the golden child and how you tweet. It's just, it sounds so delicious and wonderful.

George Hahn: Yeah, the golden child is lovely. She really is. She's wonderful. My wife is wonderful. Just so much better than me, I have to say. In so many... I don't understand it in any way. Because I'm not getting prettier. But I've been lucky in that regard. I've been very lucky.

Kara Swisher: I think you're fantastic. Stop telling yourself that.

George Hahn: Thank you, George. I appreciate it. That's good. I like your prediction. I think you're right. I do think it's going to be... As you know, I've been angering. The reason Tim Lee came on Sway was because he disagreed with the column I wrote saying just this thing. But I do, I agree. It has to make... I was thinking the other day of going and taking my son here in San Francisco to the movies. And then I just was like, there's nothing good enough. If it was Bond, maybe. As you know, you and I have a great love of Bond. If it's Free Guy, I love Ryan Reynolds but not that much. I don't like him that much to like... Do I really want to risk something? Not that I think I'm going to get COVID. I'm not sort of one of those people. But also, all kidding aside, if I were coupled off and I had someone to hang out with and spend my nights with, I might have a different attitude. But a single guy who does a lot of things alone, doing things like that just to get out of my cocoon. Because left to my own devices, I can be a big isolator and that's not good for anybody.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. You're the original social distancer. Anyway. George, thank you so much. Are you going to get on The View? Is that going to happen? Is that a serious thing?

George Hahn: It was a joke and then people... It got traction without any help from me. And I love what you and Stephanie... Stephanie, my other favorite media dominatrix.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, she is a douche. She really is. She's got whips and everything.

George Hahn: So anyway, not me. She slapped me so hard one night about something that I had tweeted in one of my videos.

Kara Swisher: Why do I think she could have actually done that physically? But go ahead. Keep going.

George Hahn: I believe she would have if she were in front of me. But I had tweeted something that Megyn Kelly had spun out. It had to deal with... Chris Cuomo tweeted it and then Megyn Kelly caught wind of it and then it got ugly. Stephanie pulled me aside in the private messages and just gave me a verbal slapping. She's like, "Listen..." And I was like, "Yeah, she's right."

Kara Swisher: But you'd be good on The View. But they need a conservative. I think there was a rumor Condi Rice is going on it. There's all these rumors of who's going to be the conservative person. I find it a little bit reductive that this is the way you have to do it. Like one wrestler who wears all black, one wrestler who wears all white. I find that kind of strange and reductive. But nonetheless, you would be...

George Hahn: I do think it's reductive. I agree. And thank you for your vote of confidence. And I think I would have a lot of fun with it. I do think I'd be very good. I think it's right for a shakeup, probably. I'm not calling the shots. If I were in the room where decisions were made, I would say, "Listen, let's at least try something new." But so far, I've not even been invited to have a conversation.

Kara Swisher: Oh, let me see what I can do. Anyway, thank you, George. You can check out everything George is working on at georgehahn.com. That's H-A-H-N. The link is in our show notes. And as always, you can submit a question to the show at nymag.com slash pivot. And we'll only have one episode next week because of the holiday. And guess who's going to be back? Scott, he's back. Daddy's home. Daddy's home. Daddy's home. I like saying that. He's kind of a daddy. Anyway, enjoy the long weekend, everyone. George, I want you to read us out and I wanted you to do it with flair.

George Hahn: I'll do it with pleasure. Since German companies are buying up all these media companies, I've read it in German.

Kara Swisher: Oh, no. Don't do that.

George Hahn: Thank you, Sergeant Schultz. We want to buy your blog.

Kara Swisher: Today's show was produced by Lara Neyman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Indra Dot engineered this episode. Make sure you're subscribed to the show on Apple Podcasts, or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify, or frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from Vox Media. We'll be back next Friday for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

George Hahn: Under his eye.

Kara Swisher: Fantastic.

[Ad break]

Starbucks Voice: The pumpkin spice latte is back at Starbucks. Crafted with our signature espresso and real pumpkin sauce, then topped with whipped cream, cinnamon, and nutmeg. The PSL. Get it while it's hot or iced. Only at Starbucks.