The U.S. Takes Charge of Venezuela... Now What?

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Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher, and welcome to 2026. Scott is still away at an undisclosed location. I can't go into it, but there's so much going on that I've assembled a super group of smart folks to help me cover it all. We've got Don Lemon from The Don Lemon Show, Stephanie Ruhl from MS Now's The 11th Hour, and Brooke Hammerling, communications specialist, podcaster, and culture guru of Time, the Pop Culture Monday's newsletter. I want to talk about 2026 going forward. So I put this team together that could talk about anything. Welcome, everybody. Thank you. We're also friends. We're all friends. Well, actually, Don and I don't know each other, but Don. You don't? No. Oh, but we're friends. We're friends. We're friends now. We're friends through other people. Don't worry, Don. We've all, the three of us have talked about you behind your back. Yeah, absolutely. Constantly. Constantly. God is going to say you needed three people to replace him, Cara. You know his ego is. No, I don't think I do. And we not going to say what Scott is up to but why don you why don you reader why don you listeners write in what you think Scott is up to right now okay Oh boy Yes and then we read them when he returns Anyway he should be back soon He been traveling and doing all kinds of fun things So how was your holidays, everybody, each of you? Brooke, you and I learned Mahjong. We learned Mahjong. We learned Mahjong. Okay, who insisted that you learn Mahjong over breakdance? Stephanie Ruhl. Stephanie Ruhl. Stephanie Ruhl. I want to just tell you why I love Mahjong. I play American Mahjong. And the reason I love Mahjong is because it just, you are presented with chaos and your job is to create order. I love, it's a perfect activity for antisocial social people because you're in an environment with others, but there's not too much chitchat and there's no total ding. You don't have to be a smarty pants, but there's no total ding dongs. Well, is this retro? I feel like I'm in a 1970s sitcom because all you see. It's indoor. I'm going to play Mahjong, Marty. John, 100%, let me be clear. Mahjong, canasta, and pickleball, I am leaning into my Golden Girl era in a big way. I'm loving it. Mahjong is indoor pickleball. That's what they're calling it. That's what they're calling it. It's very on trend. I play spades. I like spades. I like spades. Spades is cool. So, John, how was your holidays? You were drunk on New Year's. I appeared, and so did Stephanie, was on your show. I was tipsy. I mean, I'll give you, I mean, it's a little bit of Andy Cohen drunk, but you were, you were enjoying yourself. Oh yeah. I don't, I've heard just, it was just a couple of minutes ago about Andy Cohen. I didn't get to watch cause I was doing my own thing, but, um, I, I wasn't, um, you know, it's a little bit of an act like Dean Martin, you know, I'm carrying it. I don't have a glass with me. I'm carrying the glass kind of, but, um, you know, and I'm just into it, but I had a great time. I worked. Did that work out doing it on YouTube? Cause you've done it on the net. You did it on CNN, right? Thank you for asking. He's the original. Like, let's be clear. Any TV network that's now making it this, like, party celebration, Don is the orig. Right. The OG baby. The OG. Yes. I started the drinking and shots and champagne toasts and just having a good time and people getting a little bit edgy. I mean, Kathy Griffin actually started the edgy talk. She's not a drinker. Right. And then I would just sort of rip off of Kathy. But, yeah, I think it was very successful for me as an independent media person. This was a test for me. I said I was going to do it with no intention just to see if it could work. And I thought it was great. It was beautiful. It was a hot mess a hot chaotic mess that I loved and people loved it I got stopped so much in New Orleans and in the airport by people saying I loved it And the mic upside down And you know I was you know, they loved it. I thought it was great. You are Mr. New Media now, of course. Is that okay? I mean, is it okay to say that? Yes. No, I think it's great. I think it's the way you are. I think it's the way you are. So Stephanie, where were you in Florida with the old people? I was in Florida with old people, young people, playing Padel and pickle and tennis. And joining me on New Year's Eve. Joining Don on New Year's Eve, doing a 5K with my family. It was great. I happen to love that week between Christmas and New Year's, of having no idea what day it is, what time it is, where you are, and truly just having that reset time. Yeah, we all had flu A in the Swisher family. Everybody had flu A from one to the next. But can I say something about you, Cara? Yes, yes. Cara's such a great mom. She raised such great kids. When I texted her, I said, hey, how are you? What's going on? Merry Christmas, whatever. And she said, I haven't responded to you because I'm in bed with the flu. But her son made her. Didn't he make homemade soup for you? He did. And he did. He did. He made amazing. Louie. The best. What a hero. He's a hero. I'll tell you, on New Year's Eve, where I was, they drop a ball at 8 p.m. And then they do it again at midnight. And I was there for eight. Eight p.m.? I was there for eight. And then, so good. So good. So good. So good. But then at 1145, I'm laying on my couch watching Landman with my husband, or he's watching sports on another TV, and my kids called. And they were on the beach, and the ball was dropping again. And they were like, are you really not here? And I quickly put my clothes on, and we ran to the beach. And I thought, how many more years are my kids going to be saying, the ball's going to drop in 10 minutes, get here? And that, for me, was just awesome. Fantastic. All right, I'm going to move you all along. This is lovely. We all had lovely holidays. We're glad to be back, though, because a lot is happening. The news, of course, didn't stop. Everyone's going to sort of focus on Stephanie with business, Don politics, Brooke with culture, but anybody can weigh in on anything at all. So any thoughts would be great. So President Trump says the U.S. is, quote, in charge of Venezuela following the capture of Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro and his wife over the weekend. As we record, the two are set to be arraigned in a Manhattan federal court on drug trafficking weapons charges. Trump is also putting pressure on Venezuela's acting leader, warning if she doesn't do what's right, she's going to pay a very big price. I don't know what that means. He's not backing Venezuela opposition leader reportedly because he annoyed she won the Nobel Prize over him and then didn give it to him Trump is now threatening Colombia and saying Cuba looks like it quote ready to fall and talking about taking Greenland again I don know what in his Wheaties. It seems to be part of his Donro doctrine, as he's coined it, after the Monroe doctrine, for those who know history. It sounds just as idiotic as it seems. Don, let's start with you. There's a lot to get here, but let's start with the big picture. What is happening over there at the White House. And what do you make of all this? Obviously, there's Epstein issues, economy issues, health care issues that he may be trying to avoid. But thoughts? Well, I think the obvious is that it's chaos. I mean, it's chaotic for the country. It's bad for the country. I think that I believe, and I think, Cara, maybe you have said this as well, and I agree with you if you did say it, is that I think that Donald Trump has been surprised by how much he's been able to get away with. And every time he gets away with something, it emboldens him to do something else, to do something that's even worse. I was listening to a podcast over the holidays, and it had quotes from Barack Obama in there. And everything he said about what was going to happen in the second Donald Trump administration really came true. And he said, and I'm paraphrasing here, he said, we've seen this movie before, and we know the sequel is always worse. And so the more Donald Trump gets away with, if he is allowed to pardon people, and there's not enough uproar about it and nothing happens. And he's going to pick, he's going to arrest people without due process on the streets or detain them, even if they're American citizens, or he's going to invade sovereign countries. Now, I think everyone on this panel and everyone can agree that something needed to be done about Maduro. He's a bad person, but it's just the way that he did it. And look, how can a tyrant arrest, detain another tyrant? It doesn't make sense. Rather easily, as it turns out. Rather easily. And just real quickly, what he's doing, though, I believe, is setting a precedent. Because from what he said is that Maduro was this and that. He's a tyrant. And he was a criminal. And he did all these things. He tried to overturn an election, or he did. He influenced an election, which is the very same things that Donald Trump tried to do. And he's also a criminal. Which Gavin Newsom pointed out online. So why does Donald Trump get to get away with it and Maduro doesn't? It doesn't make sense. So Stephanie, make it make sense. Trump wants U.S. oil companies. They've talked about that in Venezuela to rebuild the industry. And that happened in, I think, 98. As of this recording, oil stocks are surging and the price of oil is holding steady. Talk a little bit about the business implications, because most people feel like it's about oil, but I think it's about a whole lot more than just that. Yeah. Make it make sense. Trump wants U.S. oil companies. They've talked about that in Venezuela to rebuild the industry. And that happened in, I think, 98. As of this recording, oil stocks are surging and the price of oil is holding steady. Talk a little bit about the business implications, because most people feel like it's about oil, but I think it's about a whole lot more than just that. Well, what it's not about is drugs, right? Donald Trump, over a dozen times this weekend, said oil. We heard Marco Rubio say this is about freeing oil for the people. What people? And to me, one of the biggest tells was on Air Force One when Donald Trump was asked, did you speak to American oil businesses before? And he said, I spoke to them before and I spoke to them after. OK, Congress was not notified, but businesses were. That's how autocracies run. That is not how a democracy runs. And it's important to remember that American oil companies entered into risky deals to develop oil, Venezuelan oil, years and years ago. Those deals were canceled by the Venezuelan government. By Chavez. It's not like Donald Trump saying today, we now control Venezuela. They're not going to turn on the spigots and money is now going to pour into this country. This will now cost our government billions of dollars, right, to now go down there to secure it. And now these companies are going to decide, are they going to spend hundreds of billions of dollars or at least 100 billion dollars in the next decade? because that's how long it's going to take to then get this oil business opportunity to come to fruition. My question is, who are the American people? We know in the last 10 months all that Donald Trump has done to please the tech community or all that he's trying to do to please Wall Street And I think this is a quick important reminder When they say Wall Street loves this I spoke to a bank CEO yesterday that said we were positioned for this We went long Venezuela We went long PDVSA which is the state oil and gas company a week ago. And they were positioned because the markets go up. Investors can sell everything tomorrow, right? There's a conflict. They can buy today. They can sell tomorrow. They're out. What hurts government and the American people, we can't make giant long-term decisions. We have to make giant long-term decisions as a government. We don't operate like day traders. And so when Wall Street says this works for me today, it works for them today until China tomorrow says, oh, hold on. Are you ready for what we're going to do with Taiwan? If this is Trump's strongman move, giddy up. Look what we could do here. And so that's where Wall Street, and I'll stop talking now, that's when Wall Street is sort of of two minds. On one hand, they're like, money's coming in. This is an opportunity. Great. We're going to unleash this. But on the other, now that there's no rules in the jungle, right? Now that we're breaking international law and world norms, what could happen around the world? And that's what has... The other thing is for now, for now, because he's got a short amount of time here. It's only a couple of months and then they're stuck. Brooke, she was just saying on social, like all the things that are going on, MAGA really reacted in very different ways. Obviously, Marjorie Taylor Greene was against it, but a lot of... Yeah, America first, America first. But some of them weren't. They were they were there was also a lot of there was a ton of stuff going viral on TikTok, such as Madero's outfit. Well, yeah. I mean, let's be clear, because because the kids are driving the culture, the cultural conversation. Maduro is now a fashion influencer. It's unbelievable. That picture of him on the airplane and then it turns out to be a Nike suit. It's a Nike tech suit. And he had what people were saying was like an eye patch, but it was clearly goggles to cover his eyes. But there are so many memes about his fashion. The viral memes have gone crazy. They have him as a fashion icon. I mean, your friend Baratunde posted a picture of himself in the sweatsuit saying, like, hey, I already own this. So everything becomes comedy. It's become comedy. Which is kind of serious. And it couldn't be less funny. Correct. The core of all of this. While we're criticizing what the president did or the way he did it, Maduro is a horrible, awful, awful man, an oppressive leader. And so Venezuelans and Venezuelans are thrilled to see this man out of power But Cara you asking the most important question with now what But the absurdity of him now being a fashion icon is so absurd in every way But that shows you where our culture is going. And I believe it shows you what the, just the grossness that the MAGA folks have just injected into society and the culture. And it's also social media as well. It's social media. I mean, for me, it's not as much MAGA as it is the kids that are turning, you know, they've created like a DJ set with him And he's now become this sort of, you know, Che Guevara kind of person that the kids are like, you know, he's somebody to now look up to. Don, I think it's way more TikTok nation than it is MAGA. And this is going to be so challenging for America First MAGA. Like, I'm thinking about my mother, Louise Rule, who always argues like, I'm sorry, Stephanie, we can't be thinking about foreign policy. There's kids in West Virginia who can't even go to a good school. People who live in West Virginia aren't thinking, certainly, or around, you know, that original MAGA base who says, I'm a forgotten American, is not being remembered when it comes to what we're doing. Well, MAGA is morphing right now. Don't forget that MAGA, that TikTok is becoming MAGA. Remember who's going to take over the algorithm of TikTok? That's going to be the Ellisons. They are MAGA. If you are on TikTok, yeah, well, they're going to have. Well, Oracle will own 15%. Let me be clear. But let me say, if you are on TikTok, if you are, you've noticed that your algorithm has changed. And if you are, there's more pro-MAGA stuff that gets elevated than stuff that is anti-MAGA or that just tells the truth about Donald Trump. So TikTok, I believe from my experience with TikTok that it is MAGA. It is, Megan. So last question for you, Don, and maybe, Stephan, you can add to it is, what is Congress do? They come back this week, right, at some point. What happens here? What do they do? Because they've been rather quiet. And of course, Rubio was all over the TV, all over the place talking about, you know, justifications, which are different than Donald Trump's justifications, but they were talking it up, that's for sure. So what happens next? Well, I think Congress will make a lot of noise and then do nothing, as they always do, sadly. I mean, they need to do more. They could start some sort of procedure. They can do hearings. They can demand something. You know, Chuck Schumer, you know, actually said the F-bomb. But he should have been he should have had that energy a long time ago. Years ago. Years ago before Roe was overturned You know what I mean Before Donald Trump got elected the second time they should have had the balls as you said to do something Well maybe balls are the problem because if women were in charge, we know how to multitask. And while Venezuela is hugely important, it's going to occupy Congress. It's not occupying the daily lives of the American people. And the American people are about to wrestle with soaring health care costs, affordability problems. And we've got, I'm certainly not going to say a labor crisis by any means, but we've got a tenuous labor situation happening in this country right now. So lawmakers are going to go back. They've got to deal with Venezuela, the amount of effort and time and money we're going to spend there, and then the issues facing American people's daily lives, which are the reason Donald Trump's poll numbers were getting lower and lower in the months leading into year's end. And step finally, Brooke, What's the next viral thing besides this ridiculous Maduro outfit thing? I think we're going to see more of the ridiculousness. I think we're going to see like right now we're seeing the fact that he's in the prison that P. Diddy was in and Luigi. But then here's the question, Cara. Two weeks from now, like truly two weeks from now in Davos, when every world leader and business leader all gets together and talks about how we're going to collaborate and make the world better and stronger together. What's going to be the theme this year? Strong man who done it? Yeah. Yeah. Well, what is it? You're going? I am not. I can't wait to see what Jeff Bezos wears because that's what we all care about. All right. Moving on. I don't know the people who attend Davos are sort of in on it. You know, they want the money. So, yeah, I don't think there's going to be a theme or, you know. Okay. That's a great point because, but, okay, but here's the problem then, Don. the idea of Davos is supposed to be about thoughtful leadership. And if where we are right now with our business and political leaders is if you can't beat him, join him. Let me get in on the hustle. Then I guess that's my question every year. It's what is the Davos man? Well, what the heck is he if he's just somebody who's in on the crypto hustle? I think they're going to sound a lot like Donald Trump on Air Force One with Lindsey Graham standing next to him about to drop to his knees and, you know, shine his shoes or whatever he's going to do. They said it out loud. They said, this is about oil. They said, Donald Trump said, this is about oil. And Lindsey Graham said, with all of the deals and all of this happening, we're going to become more prosperous with all of this. This is about oil. This is about oil. He said, Donald Trump said, this is about oil. And Lindsey Graham said, with all of the deals and all of this happening, we're going to become more prosperous with all of these new. So that's what it's about. And that's what Davos is going to be about. That's it. OK, then when are we going to talk about debt and deficits? If we're going to become more prosperous this way, it's going to cost us an enormous amount of money. So in Davos, where the biggest investors and bond daddies go, what do they think about this kind of spending? All right. Let's go on a quick break. We come back. We'll talk about what a buzzy, low-budget Canadian show means for the future of entertainment. I know you guys love this one. For most of the history of television, if you missed a show, you just missed it. It was over. It was gone. But then this little company called TiVo came along and gave people superpowers. You could pause live television. You could rewind it. You could save it and watch it later. It was incredible. and the people who had it could not stop talking about it. This week on Version History, a new chat show about old technology, we talk about the history of TiVo and how it is that a company whose products actually no one ever really had or used became one of the most iconic stories in tech. All that on Version History, wherever you get podcasts. I'm back with Don Lemon, Stephanie Ruhle, and Brooke Hammerling. Now we're going to get into something a little lighter. We have a lot of time to take in more TV shows and movies over the holiday break. Let's talk about the breakout star of the past few weeks, Heated Rivalry, which is your favorite thing. Also, Tons, apparently. Stephanie, you can weigh in, too. Explain very briefly the cultural impact of the show and talk what it means from a business perspective. This was a low-budget Canadian production, not unlike K-pop Demon Hunters. Same thing. Right, right. Canadian and American. Stephanie said earlier what was the occupying the minds of American people. This is what's occupying the minds of American people, which is Heated Rivalry, a gay hockey drama series coming out of Canada. A lot of people think it's HBO because it's been distributed by HBO, but it was made by this streaming. Here in this country. Yeah, in the U.S. It was made by this streaming platform in Canada called Crave, and it costs $3 to $5 million an episode. Compare that to Stranger Things which I think was like million an episode And what is dominating the conversation right now It heated rivalry in every aspect i mean people are like don you re it right this is a phenomenon people are re-watching it people are not just watching a series as the expert gay man on the panel well i have to say but it's not just that's when you said it was a gay story it's actually a love story it's a love story it is a love story but people are calling it the gay hockey show but it is sex It is sex heavy. It is sex heavy. But the most important episode of that, episode five, had no sex. And what you're seeing, I think it's a really interesting thing. I mean, first of all, do you know that according to Pornhub, 47% of viewers of gay porn are straight women? Yeah. You know, that's just the way it is. And straight women are talking about this show. Straight women love this show. But Brooke, let me, let me, let me, I want to challenge you on this. Is it sex heavy or is it just people or is it just that people are not used to seeing gay sex? No, I mean, I feel like I've seen straight shows that have lots of sex, more sex in this show. And no one says it's sex heavy. It's just they're maybe not used to seeing gay men being intimate on screen. Well, I think Kara's favorite show, Hunting Wives, walked so so that these boys could run. That was that was the amuse bouche to this. I was just about to say the reason I said sex heavy is because my experience in watching Hunting Wives where I would leave like my family room and watch it in a private area. I had the same experience. Because I have kids running around my house. I mean, yeah, you would nail an acrimon like going down. I was watching a robbery on the plane last night and I was like. Oh, my God. Okay. So, wait. You know what it is? Wait. You know what it is? You're that guy, Dawn. No, when there's the presence, when you're aware that oral sex is taking place and you have children in your house, like that's sex-heavy TV for me. We've established regular missionary sex happens on TV, and both those shows feature a different flavor. Yeah, a lot of, yeah, you're right, you're right. Well, talk about the two of them together because, you know, Hunting Watch is coming back for a second season. Heedle Rivalry is going to get another one. And so here the thing I think it you have a bunch of unknowns And we also watching in particular I mean there are three main guys which are Connor Story who plays Ilya who speaks If you watch Russian talk which is TikTok with Russians they lose they losing their minds over his accent and his Russian not just his accent speaking English but his Russian This is a Texan born and raised who started taking Russian lessons a week before filming. It's phenomenal. You're watching Connor's story become a star. And right before our eyes, star is born. We hope that fame doesn't corrupt him. Hudson Williams, who plays Shane Hollander, is an unknown that is just having an unbelievable moment. And then the most known, I loved him in Schitt's Creek, was Francois Arnaud, who plays Scott Hunter. And he is the one who had that pivotal, pivotal episode, which is episode five, which has zero sex. So I think they bring you in, it's sexy. It's sexy. Let me tell me, Brooke just brought up this idea of unknowns and lower costs and stuff like that. Talk a little bit about this from a like, because right now the costs of Hollywood are massive and sometimes they pay off. Look, Avatar is killing it at the box office, especially abroad. But there's a lot of these something when I interviewed Ted Sarandos years ago, he was like, there's no there's only going to be the big ones and the little ones and the middle is gone. But that's why the beauty of this show is the same stroke of beauty of independent media. Right. Before independent media existed, when there was just giant pillars, right? When there was three television networks, when there was three papers of note, when there was three movie studios, you had to work your way up and be part of this giant conglomerate and marketing machine. And that's the only way that content could be distributed. Now, if you make something magical, it can find legs, it can find a home. And that's sort of the beauty of, right? We talk so much about the the problems of social media and all the, you know, the bad actors and so on and so forth. But when you now have the system broken and these unknowns can create something on a small platform and then it gets distributed, to me, like, that's extraordinary. And that's something that couldn't have happened decades ago, back when there were, you know, three studio heads with their arms folded running Hollywood. There were breakouts. There were breakouts. Yes. What she said, Cara. Go ahead, John. Cara look I want to say remember when we had this conversation we talked about you know some of the things you see on independent media and independent journalists and podcasts you know it done by a skeleton crew what you would call for broadcast And you walk into a big broadcast studio office and you go what are all these people doing here And so Stephanie is right This is where the media is going There will be big breakthroughs There going to be the big guys And then I still consider myself a little guy. There's going to be a little guy like me. But this is where it's going. And I think it's actually fantastic because something that's small can have lift, as you say, and something that's big where it's overthought, like what Stephanie says with these guys and people sitting around going, it's got to go through this or whatever. That's not where we are anymore. We're not there anymore. People want it a little messy and authentic. I think we're in a transition period and I think there's space for both. And I think that's what's awesome about it. What do you guys think? What I'm afraid, and so I'd love your thoughts, is that with the success and the popularity, I mean, it's become the cultural zeitgeist. You have Stephen Colbert talking about he was a bossy bottom. You had Jeff Goldblum asked last night on the red carpet at the awards show whether or not he's going to be in the cottage. You bring up a good point. This is going to change society, I believe, like Will and Grace did. But what happens if it changes the show where they're like, oh, now that we're so popular, instead of $3 to $5 million, we're going to go to $20 to $30 million? That, I feel, will change the heartbeat of the show. All these shows now have such a shorter life, right? But if the budgets go triple, right? These kids are now huge celebrities. Or maybe the example that you're pointing to is, remember the first season of Nobody Wants This? Yeah, exactly. Nobody expected it. You loved every minute of it. It was like, what is this? It's touching me. It's connecting me. And then the second season, which had so much hype. It was branding. Had so much branding and product placement. All the people, all the women like me who felt that show, who were connected to that show, then felt like you were being sold an Airbnb experience. And Dunkin' Donuts. It was awful. And I felt like they had this magic. And it's still, I'm not knocking the show, but they lost their magic of being this, we're just going to make this. Nobody wants this, literally the title. Nobody wants this and we're just going to make it. And it connected with everybody. I totally agree. And then when season two came and they product placed the hell out of it, there was a lot more like, I'm not sure. Which is the difficulty of having the long timeline, especially with the streamers, like, I'm thinking of Pluribus, another popular show. Oh, for God's sake. Listen, Pluribus, you know, just shut up. It won every show. It's a show on me. No, no, no. I shall not. It won. What did it win? What did it win the awards last night? No, it is popular. No, it is popular. It won every time. It's going to show up. No, no, no. It's literally. What did it win? What did it win the awards last night? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Like five people. I love the show, but you cannot put it in the same breath as heated rivalry in terms of cultural like. I'm not. But it is. It is not. It is. Can I jump in here and tell you, I don't think it's going to change because Jacob Tierney, who you know, Brooke, is the he's a Canadian creator of this. It's a debt. They're they're adapting a book. They have to stay somewhat true to the book, a book written by a woman. And I've been watching him because I'm obsessed. My husband's like, you're obsessed with this. And so I think that Jacob Tierney knows that it cannot change. It's got to be authentic and it's got to stay grounded. But here's what I just want to say this one thing. You know how Will and Grace changed the culture and made it OK for, you know, gay people to kiss on TV or just to have gay plot lines on television? I believe that this is doing the same thing to the culture because as Brooke mentioned, straight guys are talking about it. Hockey podcast, podcasters are talking about it. People who do sports, they're talking about it. The Empty Netters is a podcast with a bunch of white boys who are sports hockey fanatics. And they're obsessed. Last thing you would expect, they are crying. It's the biggest green flag of men I've ever seen. I've never been attracted to people. Can I say one thing? Go ahead. Can I tell you a story? Yes, go ahead. Please do. Okay, I'm going to tell you a story. Brooke's going to get it. So I don't have a sports background whatsoever. When I was a senior in college, I went to Mardi Gras in New Orleans. And a boy took me to a dinner at then senior in college's house, Peyton Manning. It was a big dinner. At the time, I didn't even know who he was. He was about to win the Heisman right after Mardi Gras ended. I'm sitting at a long, long, long dinner table of all of these Ole Miss football players. I know nothing about Ole Miss. I know nothing about college football. But looking at a table of 45 boys, I say to the guy next to me, what is it like? What is the mix go with, you know, like gay players on the team and straight players on the team? Okay, this question came because I'm a girl who doesn't know sports, but I know math. And probability and statistics would tell you when dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of men are in a group, there's some gay ones in there. When I asked this question at this dinner at Peyton Manning house in 19 his parents house in 1997 my date practically threw me in the bayou flipped the table Were you escorted out right For real For real. I mean, a guy hit the table, what are you kidding me? I mean, like it was, I was on the fast train back to Jersey and here we are 30 years later and nobody's saying, let me say, you play hockey, you're gay. It's probability and statistics. There's going to be some gay guys on the team. That's never an issue for women's sports. Who's straight here is what we say. But may I point something out, Brooke? Erroneous as you think I am. Who among us has been invited to do a cameo on Heated Rivalry? Kara Swisher! I'm as good as you. Kara, were you? Yeah. And are you doing it? You mother pucker. You were a total mother pucker. I was, by the way, a puck bunny when I was in high school and college. I do all the cameos, my friend. I know. What's a puck bunny? Okay. It's, you know. Is that like a lacrosse-titude? Is that like a groupie? Is that a groupie? It's a groupie of hockey players. Yeah, Puck Bunnies. No, we weren't. Yeah, it was for the Rangers. I grew up in Rye. That's where the Rangers were. We were Puck Bunnies. And our parents were like, if you can get us Ranger tickets, have fun. Wow, Puck you. Cara. Brooke, can I ask you, do you like Ilya? And what's his name? I can't remember. I love all of them. What's his love story? Do you like more? Do you like Ilya or do you like Scott? Well, I was a Scott Hunter because that scene, but I don't love Scott's boyfriend. I'm just going to be honest. He's like a short king. He's great, but he's not my guy. But Ilya and Shane, I'm obsessed with. But Ilya, I mean, Connor's story, there's this video of him that he did with Interview Magazine where he's wearing a, you know, a Gold's Gym t-shirt and he's lip syncing to Madonna's Like a Prayer. Yeah. I love all of that. all over him. And he, well, no, that's a different one, but this is the one where he does this, yeah, he's, anyway, he's, he's, it's very, I can't explain it, but this thing has gone so viral, they're showing it in nightclubs. DJs are interjecting the video. Sports bars. They're showing it, there's a very funny TikTok that came out in Newsletter this week that is these two women that are saying, like, dinner and a movie and their girlfriend's eating Chinese food with their chopsticks on the floor watching this 30-second clip over and over again. I wonder if Tina Mels are going to make a comeback because of this, Brooke. They never left We stopping now Let me just say I wonder if Donald Trump is watching heated rivalry You know that I could just imagine the conversation that like they brought to him You know Lindsey Graham is watching it. There's so many gays and MAGA and Republicans, of course they're watching it. Allegedly. All right. Let's go on a quick break. And when we come back, I want to know what you all think about the biggest stories of 2026. Don, Stephanie, Brooke, we're back. Moving along. It's a new year. I want to know what each of you think will be the biggest stories of 2026. I want you to spin it forward. Don, you'll start politics or whatever, whatever you think. But let's, politics would be great. But whatever you think is the biggest story going forward. Well, I think the biggest story going forward is going to be the fracturing of MAGA. It's already started. The MAGA media is starting with the Megyn Kellys and the Candace Owens and the Benny Johnsons of the world. Yeah, they're beefing. Yeah, they're beefing. And I think that that is that is the beginning of the end of MAGA. That's what I believe the biggest story is going to be moving forward. Yeah. OK. All right. For me, you know, I'm going to pick the economy because at the end of the day, I think how people vote is truly rooted in their pocketbook and how they live. And what's interesting is the economy is growing, but its growth is fragile. And it's really in the palm of Trump's hands. Like whether the economy builds or weakens depends entirely on Trump's deglobalization agenda. Right. Tariffs, mass deportations. So I just think where we go in this K-shaped economy, right, where the rich have gotten richer and the poor have gotten poorer, and that's only getting exaggerated this year, where we're headed is where I'm laser beam focused. Is it really growing or is it astroturf? That's why, because that K thing, I'm like, is that growth real? Because people are a lot poorer and you need more people being able to buy things than fewer people being able to buy them. So I don't know. if that. Yes, but well, he could be using it with Venezuela. It could be. There's ways to goose it right to goose the economy. The economy is certainly being goosed. We could have more federal intervention. We could have more farm aid bills of the like. But remember, when you're facing less and less regulation in your business, which is what we're facing right now, you're going to see businesses spend and grow The thing that standing in the way is tariffs And Trump is fat right fat in the middle of it But you right Is it just AstroTurf Because Cara talks about this all the time When you look under the Magnificent Seven, under those big, giant tech companies that aren't getting hurt, they're being helped by AI, they aren't getting hurt by mass deportations. When you look under there, lots of those companies are struggling. And if consumers don't have the money to spend or the money that their spending doesn't go so far. It's only rich consumers, right? So that's my point is, it's a fragile economy. And the person who has his hands on the steering wheel is Donald Trump. And let's see what he does. So what do you imagine being the best case for him and the worst? I actually think the best case for him would be if the tariffs were to be ruled illegal, that would be his most graceful exit. He could say, I wanted to make America great. I wanted to bring manufacturing back, but they wouldn't let me. Companies would say, great, we're not having to face these tariffs. Happy days are here again. I don't think that's going to happen or it's going to be super messy. We'll soon find out, right? Trump is the first to say the market is the economy. It's not. The market has done very well. It could do even better. But under that, what is the world going to look like? Kids coming out of college, can't get jobs when our health care costs are spiraling. Let me interject, Dawn, just for a second. One of the things is we were looking for pajamas yesterday for something. And one of the things that's noticeable is there's fewer items, harder to find and more expensive. Even if you're, you know, it was kind of, it's noticeable in every store now. Was this online or in real life? No, it was offline. It was in all that. What's noticeable, Cara, is the big have gotten bigger and the small are getting smaller. Small and business-sized businesses could not survive tariffs. If you're a giant company, you could front load your inventory. That's what I was thinking. Yeah. If you're a small business in Georgetown and you're selling toys and books and pajamas, you can't weather storms like this. This was target. I just want to say this. I think the best case scenario for him would to be to completely fail with the economy because Donald Trump does not like to admit that he is wrong. And so if the economy goes off of a cliff, that will be the biggest wake up call. It's like it's like an addict. You can't they have to hit rock bottom before they make a change. And I think Donald Trump, the economy has to hit rock bottom for Donald Trump and Republicans to understand that he's fucking up the economy. But, Cara, let me just make one final point. Okay. And then we're talking about the economy for the United States of America. Donald Trump is currently flanked by the most powerful. Let me just make one final point. Let me just make one final point. Okay, and then- We're talking about the economy for the United States of America. Donald Trump is currently flanked by the most powerful tech giants in the world. And while we think, oh my gosh, look at those tech guys kissing his ass, no way, they have played him. AI is gonna change every element of the way that we live. And we are now going into an AI universe where there's absolutely no regulation. The federal government is even stopping state regulations. So these this group of individuals, these 10, 15 guys are becoming more powerful and more successful than any people we've seen in our lifetimes. And that, to me, is the story to focus on the power they have amassed. Like the whole like let's eat the rich, eat the riches over here. The mega rich, that tiny sliver of universe of people are so extraordinarily powerful and have so much control. I don't think we realize. Richer than beyond belief. Yes. Correct. Correct. Absolutely. So, Brooke, what do you think the biggest cultural story of 2036? God, there's so many. But the thing that I'm thinking about as we were talking about Hollywood and the business of Hollywood, which is, again, not my business, but as a voyeur and as a cultural sort of, you know, fan. Guru. Guru. By the way, my newsletter exists because of Stephanie and Kara, because of you guys. But I think it's the marketing of these movies. For example, I look at Timothy Chalamet's movie, Marty Supreme. This is he is a very genius. It makes a lot of sense why he and Kylie Jenner of the Kardashian world are paired up. They have very similar mindsets of marketing. How to market. This movie was marketed in a way they have never seen before. If you watch TikTok or whatnot, a lot of people were very unsure about the movie. They saw it. They came out. They're like, I don't know if I loved it. I really don't know. But I went to it. I went to it because of the marketing. It was not done in a traditional rollout like the night shows. He was standing on top of the sphere in Vegas. He did the sphere. He did limps. He did a fashion drop and had all of these sports icons wearing Marty Supreme swag. It's really a whole thing. And when you're seeing like, you know, there's a YouTube show, Alan's World, that is now, I think the New York Times just did a big story on it. Nine like I don know billions and billions and billions of views a month And this is these are shorts This is the stuff that you know the your friends Meg Whitman and what his name want to kill themselves over because these shows are quick They directionally correct Directionally correct Just didn have the right stuff, I guess. But but the fact is, I think how like you're telling these stories, whether it's big budget or small budget, the marketing, the way people are connecting to audiences, they are looking at this now and saying, oh, it's not about screenings. It's not doing that well, for the Christ's sake. No, but Cara, imagine if the Leonardo DiCaprio movie that came out last year, One Battle After Another, this extraordinary film, I'm not saying it should have had the Timothee Chalamet, Kardashian, their marketing plan, but had they employed something, more because you talk to people. in a different way. People now are like, what's that Leo movie? Where can I see it? And it was months ago. I think they missed, those are old school, and I'm not calling them old, but like old school Hollywood mega celebrities where they probably had to beg Leo to do any press at all because he's Leo. Now you're looking back saying if they would have employed some of these like renegade kind of tactics, it may have had a bigger impact. Stephanie is right. You've got to have either guerrilla marketing. It's got to be social media heavy. It's got to, it's not just, you can't rely on the old things. We'll put an ad here and we'll do that. Or a Vanity Fair cover or whatever. Yeah, it doesn't work. Traditional media doesn't work in this environment. Although sometimes it does. Of course, the Vanity Fair Susie Wiles piece blew up. I'm talking about movies. I'm talking about getting to the zeitgeist of culture. Listen, everybody was ripping all over Vanity Fair that they were like, what a, you know, during the whole Olivia Ryan thing, blah, blah, blah. We stopped talking about that as soon as they nailed their Suzy Wiles cover. That's right. That is correct. Those photos. The photos were what was most. I refuse to insult those photos. I take issue. I don't either. I love them. I take huge issue with everyone going after Caroline Leavitt and her lip injections. We can't, in one hand, complain about decency and complain about a president, you know, saying things that are rude or mean and then go after Caroline Leavitt for getting the same lip injections that everybody else in Hollywood does. I certainly don't look at it as criticizing her. I see it as the genius of the photographer telling a story. No, no, no. The genius, yes. The genius of the photographer telling the story you can put in category A Correct The category B Making fun of her now Making fun of what she looks like is exactly what we saying is wrong about the president with his sophomoric insults of people. For me, it's more about them getting played. I mean, if they're the White House and she's a communications person, they should be smarter about their communications. As a communications person, I changed my profile picture on Twitter of the cesspool of what I, when I use it to that picture because it's like she's a communications person. She should know exactly what was ahead of what was happening. That was going after a woman for Botox. Sister, please. Who has. Oh, I think they all look bad. I think the only person who actually was onto it was J.D. Vance. He's like, you're going to make us look bad, aren't you? And and I only did go to Yale University. I know that's true. He's very fancy. But one of the things that was clear is I don't think they I think they made the outside look like the inside and the inside, the outside look like the inside. That's my feeling. It's just the way they are. So let me ask you one last question. You talked about the movies. What caused you to go to a movie this holiday? If you did, I went to see Song, Song Blue, which I loved with especially Kate Hudson, I thought was really quite a revelation in it. Is it what forced you into the theater? One very quick answer because we've got to move on after that. Brooke? I didn't go to the movies. This is the first holiday season I didn't. First of all, It's pouring rain in L.A., but I just rewatched Heated Rivalry and that Palm Beach reality show that Netflix has dropped, which is insane, called Members Only, which is like the Mar-a-Lago Real Housewives. It is astonishingly bad. Lots of lip injections. Okay, lots of lip injections. Stephanie, what about you? Did you attend anything? Did anything force you? I did not go to the movies, but I'm a bad—I didn't go to the movies even when people love going to the movies. I either like to leave the house dressed with high heels and uncomfortable underwear, or I like to stay home. But like the movies to me where it's like a little bit stinky in there and I'm not that comfortable in the chairs. That's a hard no. Don, anything? Same thing. I like to leave the house with high heels and uncomfortable underwear. Or none at all, Don. I haven't made an effort to go to the movies in years because I'm just I'm like Stephanie. I'm just not that interested. Now I go to movie premieres. People invite me to go to movie premieres. Yes, you know why, Don? Because you got to put high heels and uncomfortable underwear on. If you going to leave the house you want to go out And get your picture taken on a red carpet right See this is why all the noise about Netflix talking about things I think they making the correct argument which is people can go if they want, but it's not the holy grail anymore. All right, one more quick break. We'll be back with one more question for each of you. This episode is brought to you by Dead Man's Wire, the new film from Roque Entertainment. Dead Man's Wire is the incredible true story of the 1977 kidnapping that turned an aspiring entrepreneur into an outlaw folk hero. Directed by legendary filmmaker Gus Van Sant, Dead Man's Wire stars Bill Skarsgård, Dacre Montgomery, Carrie Elwes, and Myhala with Coleman Domingo and Al Pacino. In select theaters January 9th, everywhere January 16th. Everyone, we're back. Okay, I have one last question for you, and I'm acquiring a prediction. First up, Stephanie, we talked, we ended 2025 with a lot of market talk about an AI bubble and whether it would burst. If that's what you want to talk about, what do you think your prediction would be around AI? I don't have a prediction of whether it's going to burst, but all eyes are on AI and certainly mine. The question is, like, is it truly the future and is it going to convert every element of how we're living? There are certainly companies that have added AI to their prospectus who are going to go bust, right? Like, there are elements of the dot-com bust that, like, I remember I worked in banking at the time. And if there was a dot-com next to the end of your company's name, people were scrambling to attend your IPO party. There are companies that this isn't going to work out for. However, the masters of the universe in the AI space and the companies that are smartly and effectively adopting AI are going to be the companies that soar into the future. How that's going to transform our workforce, I don't yet know. So I don't have a prediction of where AI is going, but it's certainly our future. Any other prediction you want to just throw out there? I would just say my prediction is while people say that, like, the president's spiraling or this and that, I don't think he is. I think Donald Trump is happier than ever. I think he's certainly wealthier than ever. And he's finally surrounded by the world's richest, most powerful people who didn't accept him for years. And now they're clinking champagne glasses and couldn't be. I think. Melania is holding his hand again. the world's richest, most powerful people who didn't accept him for years. And now they're the world's richest, most powerful people who didn't accept him for years. And now they're clinking champagne glasses and couldn't be. I think Melania is holding his hand again. I mean, look at it. Well, I I very much worry about the future of our democracy. I worry about the health of our economy. I worry about the health and safety of our country and peace in the United States. That particular president, while people say he's a lame duck and he is a lame duck. If you think he's sad or frustrated or unhappy, he's not. He was in Trump 1.0, sitting in his bed in the White House with his whole team saying, no, sir, you can't. Now he is surrounded by, yes, may I have another? And can I give you an airplane and some gold bars? He likey. He likey. OK, next up, Don, will the talk about that? Will President Trump make it through the year? Careful the answer. I made a prediction. I'm with the Peruvian shamans on this one. But what what what is your thoughts of what's coming up in politics or anywhere and also at anything else? I'm more in line with you. I'm not so I'm not so sure that he's going to I'm not like Stephanie. I'm not sure he's he's going to make it till the end of the year because I think his health is bad. I think they're not letting on, you know, just how sick he is or his real health condition. And I think that he is. Well, you think he's happy. I think he's scared. I think he's afraid of the Epstein files and what could come. And a lot of this, including Venezuela, has to do with distraction from the Epstein files. And I believe that's why the rollout has been so chaotic, because they are trying to throw people off the trail. They don't want a roadmap. However, I do believe, as I said earlier, that this is the beginning of the end for the MAGA movement as we know it. And I think that Hakeem Jeffries could actually end up becoming the majority leader before 2026. I think they're going to lose. Republicans are going to lose 2026. For the end of 2026. Before the end of 2026, I think there are going to be a lot of Marjorie Taylor Greene defectors, or enough that it could change the balance of the Congress. That's what I believe. Balance of the Congress. Okay, anything else? But doesn't that depend on where Democrats fall? It does. If Democrats scoop up that more center space, they're there to take those votes. But if they don't, then can't MAGA hold? I think if they scoop up that center space, I think that would be a mistake because the movement in the party, remember, the people who elected Donald Trump were the people who were motivated to go to the polls. And those were kind of the extremes, whether you like that or not. I think the energy in the Democratic Party right now is on the progressive side It not in the center The center is over for that People want someone with balls They want Jasmine Crockett They want AOC. And I know people don't believe that. But when I'm out there talking to the people, that's who they want. They want Mamdani. They love him. They love Bernie. Yeah, you don't think Chris Murphy has balls? I think he does. But Chris Murphy does not. He does not have the riz that all of those other folks have. He doesn't get nearly the play. I mean, I don't want to be insulting. That's kind of a cable news thing. If you're out there talking to the folks, they love Jasmine, AOC, Bernie, and the like. They're not talking that much about Chris Murphy. They probably don't even know Chris Murphy's name. So in that vein, let me do a follow-up. If Tim Walz is abandoning his reelection campaign for governor, it looks like it might be Amy Klobuchar who is running, and she would be the first woman governor of Minnesota. What is your prediction for then a presidential candidate? What does that look like? Is that what people will be talking after November or before November, for 2020? The easy one is that it's going to be Gavin Newsom. Whether he can win or not, that's a whole nother story. But I think it's going to be Gavin Newsom. I do think that, I think someone like an AOC might run. If she's too polarizing, I don't know about that. But I think a strong ticket, I believe, would be Gavin and Marilyn Westmore, would be Westmore and Gavin Newsom. That would be a really, really strong ticket. I just, I hear everything Don is saying. And I think that Jasmine Crockett is amazing and AOC are amazing. And they're exciting, exciting women. But I also think there are parts of this country that aren't necessarily looking for excitement. Look at this last election. Mamdani had an extraordinary win in New York and you saw Mikey Sherrill and Abigail Spanberger win in New Jersey and Virginia. And I think if you took those three people and put them into it, I think Mikey couldn't have won in New York and he couldn't have won in New Jersey. So I think that the key for Democrats is to truly figure out for once, how do you become an actual big tent party? And I don't know the answer to it. Can I ask you a question? Say, what does Mama Rule want to do? Where is she going? Oh, where is Mama Rule? Oh, Louise. Louise, trust me, she doesn't- My mom likes Marco, just so you know. Oh, my mom certainly- She hates J.D. Vance. My mom certainly likes Marco Rubio She very disappointed in what Donald is doing But Louise Rule at the end of the day cares about the price of London Royal She cares about gas prices She not focused on Maduro And so she would love there nothing Louise Rule would love more than a George Bush, Mitt Romney renaissance. And sorry, Louise, that Falcon Crest and Dynasty, your other favorites, are coming back. Stephanie, in a way, though, I think we're saying the same thing. I don't disagree with you about the big tent, but they have to figure that out. And every candidate, Mamdani doesn't work in Iowa. You know what I mean? It's not going to work there. But I'm saying the energy, like the loudest voices, the people who are more motivated, I believe, to go to the polls. But, you know, look, there's a quiet there's probably a quiet middle out there. I don't disagree with you on that. But I just think that that's, you know, that's the folks that people are interested in. I guess, but I'm just saying, Don, I just don't know that like maybe I'm not saying the country is getting sick of what's like just because something is going viral. Maybe going viral is what's making us sick. And I'm not saying centrist is the answer, but I'm just saying we got to find a way to be constructive. Yeah, but I think it's constructive when I say that the energy is on the progressive side. The progressives want universal health care. That's not I don't believe that that's conservative or liberal. I think that's a right that every American should have. The progressive side wants a living wage for everyone. And look, I'm not a Democrat. I'm an independent. But yes, they do. But they're not as motivated about it. And it was an idea that came from the progressive side. Look at where affordability came from. And now the Republicans are using it. I think the point Don is making is the Democratic Party is changing. And there are also conservative versions of this in the Democratic Party or more great, Cesar, Cesar, excuse me. There's all kinds of people, even just there's a lot more congressional people. I'm going to finish with Brooke. We're recording a day after the Critics' Choice Awards, speaking of picking and choosing, which kicks off awards season. Do they even matter, these awards? Do the award shows themselves matter? Yeah, I mean, there's obviously the Golden Globes is coming up. Yeah, it's an interesting question. I think yes and no and very different for different reasons. I mean, you just had the news that the Oscars are moving to YouTube in a couple of years. That's a big, big deal. I don't think it used to be like we all would gather and watch like the Oscars and we'd have an Oscar party. I didn't know that. People would do things like that. That doesn't matter. You were never invited, Dawn. I think what matters is the clips, right? So we watching like the Jeff Goldblum interview yesterday about heated rivalry when he was asked about the cottage has gone viral The TikTokers and Instagrammers who are posting about fashion And then you hearing about movies like from the wins people care about They like oh what is this one battle after another So it not the shows themselves. It's the it is the viral moments. You had Timothee Chalamet profess his love for Kylie. These things are which then goes into Marty Supreme. So that is the stuff that that is relevant. But nobody's sitting there like the majority of people aren't sitting there and watching people's speeches and all of the sort of different nominees. They care about the fashion. They care about the viral moments. And they care about those sort of things that come after. Yeah, they're easy to digest. But, Cara, the Olympics are in a few weeks. And I do think, just like last summer Olympics, look at, for example, college football, professional football. Oh, totally. The viewership is off the charts. Totally. And so I do think that there is a thirst. People do want to come together and watch things that are joyful, that are exciting. And so while they might not be sitting down and saying, I'm going to watch the Oscars, things like the Olympics coming up. Correct. Even though the winter Olympics. The sports, that's an exemption. Or live music. I mean, we are all coming together for that. It's just these awards specifically that used to be these sort of like cultural moments. Yeah. So, Brooke, what is your, you're always way ahead of trends. What's the trend we are not paying attention to and one that should be trashed? Oh, well, the thing I mean, I think we are starting to pay attention to. But this content like YouTube, when you're talking about billions of views a month compared to like anything else and what you're seeing, how much money you're being that is we have to see like the demographic for that are seven to 14 year old girls. It's your demon hunters. It's that that is the market. Right. Like forget about forget about Gen Z. We're looking at alpha and whatnot. So I think that is where you're going to start seeing a lot of stuff being created and animation and all of that music, music, music. And I think the music aspect, whether it's live, whether it's incorporated into TV shows, movies, that's what we are really leaning into. I would love to put the Erica Kirk memes to bed, like the Erica Kirk morning tour. Like she's still blowing up. I don't want to see her anymore. But she's still blowing up. She is still blowing up. People can't get enough fun of her. Hold on. Is blowing up a good or a bad thing? No, no. Making fun of her. They're calling it the mourning tour. There's a whole meme going on. Like, I mourned Subway's $5, like the loss of $5 footlong longer than she mourned the death of her husband. And these just keep going. And it is in poor taste. And they have, remember like the guy of $5 foot long, like the loss of $5 foot long, longer than she mourned the death of her husband. And these just keep going. And it is in poor taste. And they have, remember like the guy who did the dance, the Korean singer who like gets shot up through the stage? Gangnam Style. Gangnam Style. That's like, they're comparing her to that where she's coming out on stage. And then the whole story of her and J.D. Dance. But you like it to go away. I just, but don't you think them, like you've got Turning Point USA raking in the money and their devotees. and then you have people who are, it's a grift. And then you have people who are crushing her 24 seven. But don't you think there's any, maybe I'm naive. I think there's an exhaustion of mean where people are like, can we move on from that and just live my life forward? Well, that's, it will go away, but this one has had, Brooke, right, a longer shelf life than most, yeah. And by the way, I am surprised the Oscars are going to YouTube. I did not know that. You learn something new every day. Yeah, 2029. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah, it'll probably be better. Let me, so Brooke, what is something we don't know that's cresting slowly out in the ocean? It's a tiny little ripple. I think we're going to start, I think heated rivalry, what we're seeing is going to cause a whole new sort of moment for people to come forward and be boldened, whether it's sex, whether it's the things that we used to not be able to talk about. You had that with Hunting Wise. You're seeing that. And that's coming in content that people are creating. Is there a heated? I don't know. So tell me, Brooke, is there a heated rivalry, conservative pushback against it? I'm sure there is, but it is not getting any traction. No, I can talk. I can talk about that. I've seen conservative, the log cabin Republican type believe that it is conservative coded because they are closeted. They're not open about it. They are, you know, they're not pushing it and putting in everybody's face, except for that big giant kiss. I don't want to ruin it, be a spoiler. But the conservative gays believe that it is gay conservative coded. But I don't mean conservative gays. If we're talking about like the woke pendulum swinging. Right. So if we're talking about like here we were four years ago and now we're you know, you got Andrew Tate coming over. politicians' houses for dinner. Where does heated rivalry, like, does that family, does that faux family values movement are they mad about it Well this isn I don think this is a woke thing This is a this is kind of a middle this is kind of a normie kind of you know show that has hit a, that has hit the zeitgeist in a way that's not woke. And I do think that it's going to have some penetration in middle America, like, you know, Will and Grace, people may not like it initially, but then it just kind of grows on you. You're used to seeing it. But it is the antithesis of the Andrew Tate's. And that's what's so fascinating to me. That's my point. There are people that are saying it's a psyops, the whole thing that was done to distract us from what's going on with Trump. So there is a growing group of people that believe this is all a conspiracy. You know what I think? Look over there. Look at gay sex over there. I like Cara. You're paying attention to where the pendulum has swung, where it's going. I thought, to me, one of the great moments of 2025, and it paid a lot of attention, was when Golden performed at, But when the people from K-pop Demon Hunters performed at Macy's parade, everybody loved it. It was run by, I think, a gay guy. You know, the whole thing was very woke in a very lovely way, in a way that wasn't the in-your-face woke. It was it's a very subtle. Woke has learned how to how to be woke now that everybody loves. The evolution. The evolution of woke. It's like I think heated rivalries woke. I think hunting wives is real woke. But it's a whole different slide. But they're all MAGA in Hunting Waves. They're doing coke and that. That's a genius joke. But that's the genius and the joke of Hunting Wives. That's right. That's right. And exactly. Like guns, MAGA, lesbians. It's like they're fucking. Woke has learned. The way a lot of Congress people, Sarah McBride is a good example. Very slyly, lovely person. She's, you know, imperfect allies. It's a different. And so, Golan, if you listen to that song, it is completely about being gay. It's about being like who you are. But everybody wants like I have the most gender coded son in Solomon. He's such a dude. He's always showing his butt. He's like, I have a penis, everything. He's so man. But that doesn't mean he's toxic. That's correct. He's just a dude. He's a dude. But I have to say, I said, do you like the Saja boys on K-Pop? They love K-Pop, by the way. That is a trend, too. He goes oh no I like the girls Like there was he likes all the boys like the girls And that didn happen with my my other sons immediately rejected the girls Now the girls are and to me they are so when I saw people respond to Golden I was like, they have no idea what they're listening to here. And it's, I think there's a new version of woke that is going to infect the whole country of kindness. But don't you think that version has woke, but that's it. That version of woke, those young males who, who, who briefly got swayed into the Trump averse and then said, hold on a second. Yeah, you're seeing Rogan. I'm not against this group. I'm against that. They were just tired, right? The profile of my oldest son is a dude. He's not a toxic male. And so when he had his finger waved in his face and yelled at, you saw those boys sway. And then moments after the election, they were like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And like, I'm not going there. Rogan is doing it. There's a lot of people. Theo Vaughn is doing it. I haven't seen Hunting Wives, but I'm like, just in my personal life, I would not be surprised to see conservatives or MAGA people doing cocaine or lesbians or shooting because those are the people who are doing it. In my life as a gay man, my woke gay friends are the most boring with kids people I know and not out doing sexting, you know, sexing it up. But the conservatives I know, some of them who are closeted, they're the ones who are out partying every night, who are doing the drugs, who are having sex. That's always the case. And so that would not be a shock to me. So I think it's just letting people know what's happening. But wasn't that the genius of hunting wives? Right. When you were like, oh, my gosh, this is a full MAGA bonanza. Then the next episode, you know, the ones doing the police. Exactly. That was dynasty. like by the way when I was a young gay person in Washington D.C. I would say say someone rhymes with Ginsey Dam was in the big gay bars I saw them there so I just like this was this was but I do think that the thing the trend that we're seeing like you say the Theo Vons the Joe Rogans people are realizing it's not just their I don't think it's because they have become morally awake like Marjorie Taylor Greene I don't think I think they see that there's more money to be made in the There's more money to go in and say, actually, this is... Leave people alone. Yeah. Yeah. I do think that there is a, this is not what I voted for aspect to it. I believe them when they say that, even though it is what they voted for, maybe they didn't think that they would be rounding people up off of the streets like they're doing now. Wait can I just give the prediction I really do think my prediction and it touches this I think this year honestly love and kindness will reign supreme People are so exhausted. And I hear you, Don, and the grit and the hate. I agree with you. I agree too. So many people, even look, I have every incentive to not want to believe Marjorie Taylor Greene. And when I watch her on The View, just talking like a reasonable broad, I'm like, God, I feel you. And I don't know if I feel her beyond that. She's not watching Heated Rivalry. No, she's not. But I do think this is the year people give people a break and realize, let's give one another a break. Life's much easier when you love your actions have to match your words. So I'll give it time. I don't necessarily believe it right now. Yeah. All right. Let me ask the final question, though, because the story of the beginning of twenty twenty five was Elon Musk at the beginning, right? Taking up Doge, space Karen, space Karen. What what does I want to know? Because he was the story of 20. We've forgotten since it seems so long ago, but there was a whole cycle of him on top and then on bottom. Now he's back with Trump. He's back with Trump. They just had dinner. They posted a video, a picture of him in Melania. What is his future for, this is a tech show, what is, he was the most prominent tech figure in 2025. What happens to him in 2026? I want first Stephanie and then Don and then Brooke from a culture point of view. Stephanie? Listen, And Doge didn't work in every way. But guess what? He is more powerful than ever. How when you look at SpaceX, when you look at the amount of possible IPO coming, when you look at how NASA has done less and so much more is being contracted to Elon Musk or what Palantir is doing. I think I'm not saying Elon Musk learned his lesson, but Elon Musk is in a far better position personally and professionally today on par to be richer than anyone could have ever fathomed without getting 24-7 public scrutiny of the grand failure that was Doge, right? Like we all said, like, Doge is going to, he's going to try to employ Doge. He will get in his rocket ship and leave, which essentially he's done, and leave wreckage behind, which is what happened to so many of our agencies and just within our federal government. So Elon Musk has left Doge and that's failure behind, and he keeps on trucking. I don't even think he thinks about Doge. He takes those headlines and puts them in a birdcage for liner. Yeah. All right. Next on, you worked for him. How's that case going? I am not talking about that. We're interested. Tell us. What I will say, you can say a lot of things about Elon Musk, but I don't think he's a dumb I am not talking about that. I am not talking about that. We're interested. Tell us. What I will say, you can say a lot of things about Elon Musk, but I don't think he's a dummy. Right. I think he's a smart man. I believe that in this whole political thing that he's learned the limits of his power. And by learning the limits of his power, he's learned where his power actually is. And I think it's being quieter behind the scenes, making better and more innovative cars. and rockets or whatever it is. And if he sticks to that, he could have more influence than running some department of government efficiency, which never really worked, which actually did not save any money. And tarnished him badly. And he realized that if you're going to be in the business where you're selling a product and you're someone who is as high profile as him and is the face of the company, then you have to have a good reputation. You have to do good for people rather than taking jobs. You can't take people's jobs and say, and take their money and their livelihood and they have a, you know, a smaller wallet and say, now buy my car. It doesn really work that way Yeah So he learned his lesson Brooke finish up culturally Yeah I think and I think Don absolutely right I don know if he learned his lesson in the sense that he wants to do good but the celebrity aspect of where he wanted he had that he was hosting SNL He was in every single place. He was on television is almost as much as Trump. He was speaking and jumping up and down the cults of celebrity. He realized is not where his power is. And so he's taken a giant step back from that and is much more subtle and much more sort of, you know, whether somebody is guiding him, which it really seems like might be somebody he's got somebody in his ear, or he just came upon that himself where the destruction and maybe he's gone to rehab and the ketamine use is down. OK, Cara, that's the perfect that's the perfect segue to credit Scott Galloway. Scott Galloway has been saying for years and years he sells the stock. He stops trusting the company when the CEO is on the cover of Vogue. When they're in a fashion photo shoot and they're surrounded by puppies, that's when you sell the stock. That's when you stop believing in the company. Elon Musk had his celebrity phase, then his celebrity, you know, political kingmaker, and now he whether I saying realized or not he saying Then he had the fall Yeah and he saying guess what I much better off as the Wizard of Oz And that what he is the man behind the curtain That right But he did expose himself He did expose himself. He did. He did. He showed his ass. Yeah. How can we miss if he won't go away to Mars? Anyway, thank you so much, all of you. Let me just read this out. We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind and what you think of these fine co-hosts. go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, that's the show. You guys actually were fantastic and fantastic together. And you outclassed Scott Galloway, I have to say, for our first show of the year. And I truly appreciate it. And so does Scott from wherever he is, whatever he is doing. Again, please write in what you think he is doing. You're probably right. In 2026, my personal hope is to have a shred of the confidence that Kara Swisher dance. Shred. And the cameos. I love myself. Yeah, heated rivalry. We're all going with you, baby. Okay, all right. You're all coming on the set and making a nuisance of yourself. Now, be sure to check out the Don Lemon show It amazing You got to a million YouTube subscribers It amazing The 11th Hour with Stephanie Ruhl It is the best I watch it every night and I send pictures to Stephanie I have to say it the best hour of cable television I learn a lot. And of course, Pop Culture Mondays. Brooke is always way ahead of the curve on lots and lots. She was always like, I wrote about that months ago. Anyway, thank you for listening to Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday, hopefully with Scott Galloway. We'll see. I will read us out. I'm going to the cottage. You're going to the cottage. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Anderdutt engineered this episode. Jim Mackle edited the video. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Happy New Year. And you guys, definitely another pod soon. Thank you so much.