Trump Indicted, Alibaba Splits, School Shooting Misinformation

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Kara Swisher: Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. And for lunch, I had bone broth and then I fasted and then I ran over an optometrist on a ski slope. Oh, wait, that's someone else. That's someone else.

Scott Galloway: Actually, Gwyneth Paltrow was exonerated in that miscarriage of justice. How dare Gwyneth get attacked for this? She was just skiing on the bunny slope, enjoying herself, wearing probably very organic materials as she skied. And this man bashed into her. I feel finally she's exonerated.

Kara Swisher: Someone who's not exonerated because we rush back into our virtual studios to bring you fresh reactions to the Trump indictment, which just happened. It just happened. Here's what we know. On Thursday, a Manhattan grand jury indicted Trump on charges stemming from his alleged role in a hush money payment to a porn star, though there may be much more. The specific charges haven't been made public yet, but CNN reports that he faces 30 counts related to business fraud. A spokesperson for Manhattan DA Alvin Bragg says he's reached out to Trump's lawyers to, quote, coordinate the surrender.

Scott Galloway: Wow, a lot going on and lots of people are weighing in on social media like crazy. It's so fascinating how this has become, instead of just a media story, which used to sort of run the show, this has become a massive social media phenomenon as everybody's rushing to make comments or have observations or try to game the system. Members of Congress, Trump himself, who's on Truth Social. He said he's been indicated, which I think means indicted. He wrote he's been indicated.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, he wrote. Oh, that's perfect. I think he did it on purpose. That's my feeling is that they want to.

Scott Galloway: No, no. No, he just misspelled it.

Kara Swisher: People have been enjoying it. It means his cocaine dealer is back from Tulum. Oh, wait, no, that's his kid. Never mind. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway: So allegedly last week he was supposed to be indicated and he wasn't. And of course, that was a huge amount of news cycles. And again, it's doing the same thing. I mean, my mind goes to, I can't figure out. I've always thought that accountability is part of healing and coming together. So that's the glass half full here. I also worry that conservative states are going to convince their Supreme Courts to start issuing indictments for Democratic politicians. I wonder if there's going to start a tit for tat here. I wonder if we're literally splitting apart. And the most interesting thing about what I've seen play out so far is that Ron DeSantis is trying to pour in here.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, he's vowed not to honor what is essentially an extradition from Florida. And it reminds me of, remember, Ruby Bridges being blocked from entering.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. So because. Like a George Wallace moment.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, we're literally splitting apart. We have extradition treaties with, I think Kenya. I mean, we have extradition treaties with almost every country in the West, but we're not going to be able to potentially extradite someone who's under indictment from Florida? They actually don't need him, from what I understand. Is that right? Lawyers were speaking of this.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. He said, we'll not assist in an extradition request.

Kara Swisher: Well, they just have the National Guard show up. Whatever. They don't really need him. He's trying to horn in here. By the way, Donald Trump wants to show up at the courthouse and be arrested. He wants to use it for his fundraising. He doesn't want Ron DeSantis to save him and protect him. He wants to go there. He wants a mugshot. He wants the cuffs if he could have them. He wants to say things. It's an unpaid media event for him. And he's already put out fundraising things online. They're like crazy amounts of now that I've been indicated, give me money. So he sees everything as an opportunity, not as a terrifying criminal possibility of going to jail. I don't think he thinks like that.

Scott Galloway: Well, I have a comment and a question because I think I'm literally, A, I can't get on. I haven't been able to get on Twitter for 72 hours. So I don't know what the chattering class is saying. It's actually somewhat funny, but go ahead.

Kara Swisher: Go ahead.

Scott Galloway: Maggie Haberman, who I would argue appears to be closest to their camp than anyone, and kind of calls balls and strikes. And has become the Trump whisperer. I don't know. She claims that him and the team are really rattled by this.

Kara Swisher: Well, yeah. Yes, I think probably both, but he's not going to resist arrest. It's just too crazy to do that.

Scott Galloway: I agree. A lot of people didn't think that was going to happen. And so the press was like, oh, they're taking off a month. There were all these stories this morning. And everyone on Twitter and elsewhere was speculating about this. And then they dropped it, which George Conway actually had the best tweet. It's good to see the old drop it in the mail just before leaving on vacation trick is alive and well. Another thing that was funny is Trump's been using social media to communicate. Again, he's using Truth Social. But he wrote a note on social, all caps, I have gained such respect for this grand jury and perhaps even a grand jury system as a whole. The evidence is so overwhelming in my favor, so ridiculously bad for the highly partisan and hateful district attorney that the grand jury is saying, hold on, we're not going to rubber stamp like most grand juries are branded as being. We're not going to vote against the preponderance of evidence against blah, blah, blah. Drop this sick witch hunt now. That's what he says. But then someone tweeted, thank God the indictment came from a grand jury that Trump only yesterday had said had restored his faith in the entire grand jury. It's like so real time what's happening, how this is happening and how we consume it. It's really quite, it is like a show.

Kara Swisher: I feel like there's really two huge stains on the American story over the last 30 years, maybe three if you count the overturn of Roe, but essentially the challenge to Roe. But I think the two real stains that have kicked two of the three legs out of the kind of moral standing of America were one, our invasion of Iraq. I think it's very difficult for us to wave our finger at anyone in terms of hostile action after we essentially went in there under trumped up charges. And then the second, simply put, is the Trump presidency. I just think everyone thought we could do a lot better. And it just got worse and worse and worse. And we couldn't believe that he was doing these things. And then he'd go one step further. But the thing that, I mean, I immediately went to the stock market. Truth Social, get this, is up 14% after I was trading. So people think that the additional attention, the rage, the engagement by his hardcore followers will result in the social media platform getting finally more engagement. I guess. But that's its biggest move up in a long time. It's just so interesting, the different knock-on effects here. But what do you, I'm curious, Kara, because you've been right on this. I was really, I don't know, I wouldn't have, I thought they were coordinating. It doesn't appear they're coordinating, at least the different DA's offices. What do you think, do you think this is good or bad for him?

Kara Swisher: I think it's bad. I think this whole media, like, oh, it's good for him, sure, he can fundraise off of it, et cetera. But he's got a group of people that are sticking with him no matter what. I think everyone else is like, what? Are you kidding me? I don't think they think it's unfair. And I think if they start to pile on, it's the smoke, there's fire kind of thing. So if you get the Georgia one, the federal one, there's like six of them. There's four or five or six. There's six, I think. I think it starts to be like, ooh, this is bad. Now, of course, they're going to rush to defend him initially, right? And attack Bragg personally, attack Mrs. Soros-backed, whatever. The whole obsession was, so the whole online conspiracy around Soros has really just moved to bizarre now. But I think, no, I don't think it's good to be indicted on serious charges. You may not like this case, but there are other cases that you may like better, right?

Scott Galloway: Yeah, agreed. That's how I feel about it, yeah.

Kara Swisher: You know, okay, we're all like armchair lawyers. Like, I don't know. I think it's bad. I don't think it's good to be criminally indicted for a felony ever. I just, and I know people can get off and I know if he gets off, maybe, but there's another one standing behind it and another one and another one. It doesn't mean he can't become the presidential candidate. I'll tell you that. But that's all we'll talk about is what a criminal he is. And that's not good for, I think, Republicans in general who should be talking about Biden's too old, the economy, inflation. All we're talking about is whether Donald Trump is a criminal or not. And I think most average people are like, I don't want to vote for that. It'll be really interesting to see how hopeful Republican candidates respond to this.

Scott Galloway: Well, yeah, yeah. They're all backing him right now because they don't know what to do. But I think he holds them to account. So, you know, I think I really think most of the people in the Republican. But it was interesting because besides Christie, Nikki Haley took a shot at him earlier today about Putin. And I think they're testing it to see how much, how they can get at him. They've got to be like, we cannot have this criminal walrus run the show, essentially. I don't know if they're like that behind closed doors. I think they may say that, but I think they're also horny to be close to power. And they have so much respect for his hardened silo of a base that they don't see frame. They haven't been able to turn it into victory, though. So I just say loser, loser, loser. Like he's lost one, two, three times. And that's enough. Like loser is what – he'd have to have a massive win, and that is not happening. Right now, just with that hardened base, it looks like if you just game theory this out, it looks like as it stands now, even with this indictment, and it's a long – Oh, he'll have the –

Kara Swisher: We have a long time, but if you had to project how this plays out, what it looks like right now is that his hardened base versus the rest of the Republican base that gets split amongst several people all vying for the nomination makes him the nominee and he goes on to lose against Biden. If Vegas had looked at the wisdom of crowds around what people think is the most likely scenario, that's it. But again, it looks like he'll be the nominee at this point, even with this indictment. Unless he steps down. I don't know. I think he sees the nomination as his ticket out of this shit.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, yeah, probably. But it doesn't matter. They indicted him and he's running. He's already running. I think what's really interesting to look at is how everything plays out on social media because it's become the de facto place where you see all the moves. I think the regular media sort of matters because they're sort of screaming over CNN and MSNBC and Fox right now. I think that sort of matters. But how they all react and strategize and react and strategize, to me, is where you sort of look. Even though it's not the real world, it certainly does start to create narratives around it. But it's historic. He is the first president in history to be criminally indicted like this. This is like, God, he's number one in a lot of things. And this is one of them. It's historic, I guess. It's funny. I don't know how you reacted. I'd be curious what your emotions were.

Kara Swisher: My emotions were, at first, I was really shocked for some reason. Even though everyone said it was coming, I was shocked. And increasingly, I got to be honest, I'm feeling joyous.

Scott Galloway: That was another, since you're not on Twitter, one of the things was happy indictment day. Like, so, indicative day, I guess.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. Even though I realize there's some risk around this, I just feel like at the end of the day, the arc of America bends towards justice. I'd like to think that.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. Well, let me just say, as you were saying, any indictment or commission doesn't bar him from running for president.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. No, it doesn't. He can run for president from jail. I mean, this happened in Italy. So, you know, they're also preparing New York City for deployment in case a riot starts, although so far he hasn't attracted big crowds for that. It is historic. It really, truly is a historic moment. And democracy is also, it wobbles with this guy.

Scott Galloway: Well, and it's wobbling around the world. And the next 72 hours are going to be so telling. What happens to his fundraising? What happens to his base of sycophants or pretend sycophants in the Republican Party? What happens on the Democratic side? What do they say? What happens, do a bunch of state Supreme Courts start issuing indictments against Democrats who they dig up old campaign finance violations and start issuing indictments? The next 72 hours are going to be fascinating.

Kara Swisher: They are. They are, absolutely. But there is some good news. Gwyneth got away out of her jam. Thank God.

Scott Galloway: Thank God. Well, in that vein, actually, we have a lot to talk about. There's so much to go and we've got to get on with the show. But just two things I have to say here. Gwinniscent and indicated. There you go.

Kara Swisher: There you go. Let's start the show. Let's light this vagina candle, Cara. You're in Vanity Fair. That's very exciting.

Scott Galloway: I know. What do you think?

Kara Swisher: Well, it was the puffiest of puff pieces. It was not. It was funny. Oh, my God. I had good quotes. Literally the most critical thing in the entire thing was me saying, we lost money on our pivot event.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. Well, I didn't. That was the investigative hard-hitting journalism brought to you by Condé Nast. There's not much to get on me. Come on. What are they going to get? Come on. What would you do? Come on. What is there?

Kara Swisher: But you look good. Thank you. And that's the most important thing.

Scott Galloway: Thank you. You look nice.

Kara Swisher: Thank you. You're a little jelly. It sounds like you're a little jelly.

Scott Galloway: Oh, 100%. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. The Bill Maher thing didn't give you enough juice.

Kara Swisher: Not enough.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. Not enough. It's never enough, Kara. I think the pictures were beautiful. I thought it was funny. I think there were some funny lines and it was good. It was good. You were happy with it?

Kara Swisher: Yes, I was. The only thing that kind of, like, it was interesting when she's saying a lot of people wouldn't talk to her because they were scared of me. And I'm like, when did I ever go after someone to derail their career? That kind of thing. I'm always fascinated by that. I've got to run. I'm having brunch with Kara Swisher. And if I'm late, she'll vaporize my career. I don't think we have real power, Scott, but maybe we do.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I think we have influence. I don't think we have power.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. I don't think we have political power. I would like a little power, but I don't think I do. Anyway, it was very nice. Thank you, Charlotte Kleinman. It was a good piece. And again, that picture of me and the cat was really quite fantastic.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, that was, the cat really cooperated.

Kara Swisher: I know. That cat loves being at attention. That cat wanders around the front yard only to be petted. It stands there and waits for people to praise her. She's a great cat. Casey Newton is terrified of her because she attacks Casey Newton whenever she gets the chance. I just decided I like that cat. We have this in San Francisco. We have this stairway that's painted the color of the Golden Gate Bridge. And it goes in front of Casey's window in the cottage across where he rents from me. And she sits there and stares at him in the window. You can open the window and she just stares at him. It's really kind of strange.

Scott Galloway: So we've got things mixed up here. I'm actually thinking about, I think my next dog is going to be a German Shepherd.

Kara Swisher: Oh, you're having another dog?

Scott Galloway: Well, I like to plan my next dog. I love dogs.

Kara Swisher: How old is your dog?

Scott Galloway: Well, they're two and three, so I got some time.

Kara Swisher: You got him? The one's a Great Dane.

Scott Galloway: That's what I thought. They're young. Great Danes live to be like four. I mean, they're just-

Kara Swisher: Oh, they do?

Scott Galloway: Well, no. Actually, so given that you asked, we purposely got the runt of the litter because the difference between 120 pound Great Dane and 180 pound is two or three years. The smaller ones live much longer. But Great Danes are an unusual breed and they don't live very long. They get hip problems. And the bottom line is they're not freaks of nature. They're beautiful dogs, but they're kind of too big for their organs and they just don't have very long lifespans.

Kara Swisher: Oh, wow. God, every dog I've had have stayed around. My dogs, who are living, who've retired up to upstate New York with a family member of many.

Scott Galloway: You mean you had them put to sleep, you just don't want to tell your kids?

Kara Swisher: No, no, no, no.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I love that.

Kara Swisher: No, no, no, they're up there. They're coming to visit next week for Easter.

Scott Galloway: Little Muffin went to a farm.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, that's my favorite. Now these dogs are like 103 years old. I have little dogs. I get little, not tiny, tiny ones, but smaller dogs. I get dogs from the pound. Lovely came from the pound. I just use whatever local place where there's animals. I don't get any kind of fancy dogs like you.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, we have a rescue. That's absolutely the way to go. They're much happier.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. Now, they're good dogs, but they live forever. Anyway, I was thinking of getting another dog for little ones, but it's a lot of work. But you already have cats. I get it. I think the relationship between a kid and a dog is really special. And there's something different between the relationship between a small-

Scott Galloway: A small dog is like having an accessory, a really cute purse running around the house. They're fun. They're efficient.

Kara Swisher: They're not small, small. They're like medium dog, medium. I've always had medium sized rescue dogs. But a big dog, it really is a different, it's like having a relationship with a beast. It's a different type of relationship. But anyways, I'll help you get your dog.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, I think kids and dogs are important. I agree with you. I've always had dogs.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, we have so much to talk about and we've moved on to dogs from my delightful photo shoot from Vanity Fair. Anyway, you should read it. It's actually, Scott is quoted in there. He's very funny.

Scott Galloway: I said nothing. I had literally, I said so many nice things about you. And that's what she came up with.

Kara Swisher: Anyways.

Scott Galloway: That's right. That's right. But thanks for talking about that. That was great.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, we have a lot to talk about today. Misinformation follows the tragic shooting in Tennessee. And China might be rolling out the red carpet to tech. We'll see. We'll also take a listener's question about aging in America. That's a good question. But first, Disney is shutting down its metaverse unit, part of a round of layoffs, eliminating 4% of its staff. The company also laid off Ike Perlmutter, the chairman of Marvel Entertainment. That's a different group from Marvel Studios, where all the big movies come from. He had pushed. He's sort of a grumpy Trumpy, and he pushed for changes for the company's board last year, including arguing for a seat for Nelson Peltz. I think he was working hand-in-glove with them, it seemed like. He had sold Marvel to Disney and then has struggled there. I think he fights with a lot of people. That's the stories that come out. And then there's lots of other meta things that are shutting down in lots of areas. Lots of companies are sort of cutting back on metaverse aspirations a little early. We'll see what it means for Apple's AR device, which is coming out, AR, VR device, and more. But what do you think about this?

Scott Galloway: It reminds me of when Nike gave up on the fuel band.

Kara Swisher: Oh, yeah, I had a fuel band.

Scott Galloway: So did I.

Kara Swisher: Everyone had one. Everyone still has one in a drawer somewhere.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. When a company like Nike can't make a fuel band work, I mean, they have all the assets, the distribution, the brand, the capital. They don't have the industrial hardware, the technology background. But look, the metaverse, it's just amazing. We decide when someone makes hundreds of billions of dollars that they're literally Jesus Christ. And when Mark Zuckerberg went all in on the metaverse, funds were raised to invest in the metaverse. And every company thought, oh, we got to go, got to go meta. And everyone is coming to the realization that this is, I mean, this is kind of one step worse than 3D printing. It's just, it's such.

Kara Swisher: Oh, 3D printing. Remember that? It was going to change the world. It was going to eliminate all needs for imports from China because we print everything on demand locally. And then you go to a conference and we'd all gather around something that looked like a microwave oven and watch it make a baby Yoda and be like, okay, this is the future. It was just so ridiculous.

Scott Galloway: I have that baby Yoda somewhere. It's ridiculous. And anyways, the metaverse is right up there, except people bought into it longer and wasted more money. But it's everyone's, I mean, Microsoft, Disney, everyone's getting out.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, Microsoft.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. I think they're getting out completely.

Kara Swisher: I was trying to think, sort of like crypto. It's like it didn't quite, it's still there. I mean, there's still elements. You're going to have a metaverse like VR experience. I don't think it's going away in that regard. But it's the enormous spending. I think Mark, as we said many times, was way over his skis about where this was going. I never count out that thing because I think there are applications, but it's certainly not what he was talking about for sure. Again, I hope Meta keeps on investing 1.2 or losing $1.2 billion a month on this thing.

Scott Galloway: But everybody else looked at him and said he's a very bright guy. If he's going all in, we should probably hedge our bets and go in a little bit. But no, this doesn't make any sense.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, it's over there in the crypto corner. They're sort of all hanging out together. And it's interesting, a lot of these companies get started and then they pull the rug out from them. Someone said to me, the plains are covered with the bodies of pioneers. And I think that's absolutely true. Speaking of Apple, which also has this device coming out, allegedly. It's also jumping on something that actually has been working, the buy now, pay later train. The company announced Apple Pay Later, allowing users to split purchases into four payments over six weeks. The service will allow loans between $50 and $1,000 to be used with merchants that accept Apple Pay. Scott, we know how you feel about buy now, pay later. Does it make it any better coming from a brand like Apple?

Scott Galloway: No, it makes Apple worse.

Kara Swisher: Okay, explain why you object for the people.

Scott Galloway: Well, there's a very simple axiom about building wealth. And it's not only about what you do, it's about what you don't do. You should never go into debt for personal consumption. If you can't afford a new outfit for Coachella, if you don't have the cash on hand, you don't buy it. A lot of people end up with real serious problems. Some of this is for me and my colleagues that prostitute the American dream and put a ton of debt on people to go borrow a quarter million dollars to get philosophy degrees. So we're guilty or I'm as guilty of this as anybody. But there's some good debt. Debt that is forced savings, when you buy a house and you got to be thoughtful about it, and you got to make sure you have the money for it. But when you can go five to one leverage on a house, and then it becomes a forced savings plan where you pay down the debt, you buy a business or you invest in a private equity fund, or you invest in anything that requires you to pay it down and it grows in value. As a company that you buy, as a stock you buy, as usually a home you buy, that is good debt. When you borrow money to get an education, most of the time it pays off. It's an investment in yourself. Buy now, pay later, preys on young people's inability for instant gratification. There's some anthropological effect of peacocking because at that age, you're looking for mates. So when I went and bought my first BMW, I probably couldn't afford it, but I was trying to find a mate. I get it. You can sort of rationalize it. But the thing that was really upsetting about this BNPL phenomenon was it was lipstick on a pig of debt where they tried to position it as innovation. That somehow you weren't living irresponsibly, you were embracing a new debt card generation, not debt. And it was just such bullshit. Something like a third of the bad debt now is owned by young people via BNPL. I think it's a bad brand move. I really don't like this.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. Okay. You don't like it, even if they monitor and only give it to people that can do it?

Kara Swisher: Well, look, they should be allowed to do it. And my colleague asked what to motor and says the best regulation is life lessons. And you don't want to infantilize young people. Everybody's gotten, I mean, I think most people have gotten and to have spent more than they had and had to learn the hard way that there's lessons there. But the whole bullshit of BNPL, it should just be called debt. You're borrowing money.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. Okay. We don't like it, Apple. I don't know if it's the worst thing in the world, but you're right. It's interesting that they've moved into it. They definitely are trying to dominate this payment space. And so I don't think they could stay out of it. That would be my guess. What Apple's doing here is Apple ordered these Von Dutch hats, trucker hats, about 15 years ago, and they're just showing up now. They're getting into VR and wearables, and they're getting into BNPL. Because I bet two or three years ago when BNPL, these shitty little companies, Klarna and Afterpay, were worth $100 billion. They're like, we should have $50 billion of that $100. So they probably put in place the momentum and the projects to offer BNPL. And then by the time it was ready for primetime, because they're very thoughtful and meticulous, and there's a lot of regulation here, BNPL was wreckage and makes no sense. And it's the same thing. I bet right now, Kara, as much as my understanding is, and you know this, I don't, Tim Cook's excited about, I'm not sure they would green light a headset right now.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I don't know. I'll have to see it. I'm going to just wait and see it.

Scott Galloway: This is literally like, oh, honey, the pet rock you ordered in 1987 is here.

Kara Swisher: I like the Von Dutch hats. That would have been good for the vanity parachute. I would have done it. It was cool. It was counter. Anyway, another thing, speaking of counter, tech leaders and researchers are calling for a pause on AI systems more powerful than GPT-4, citing profound risks to society and humanity. More than a thousand professionals signed an open letter calling the AI rights out of control, saying not, quote, not even their creators can understand, predict, or reliably control. This is true. Among the signers, Elon Musk, Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak, tech ethicist Tristan Harris, and president of the organization that sets the doomsday clock, Rachel Bronson. It's interesting because it's a little alarmist. There's a lot of people on their side that are saying it's a little alarmist. There was a series of tweets back and forth from all sides of this discussion. But one of the things I think, of the people signing it, Tristan Harris gave an amazing presentation I saw in D.C. about this. And I thought it was thoughtful. We are in the midst of an AI arms race. and that there was a need to tap the brakes. But that's not going to happen at this point. No one's going to try to hinder this innovation going on. And I think Musk has the issue, as he did when he started OpenAI, that it's owned by the bigs still. That's the real issue is it's the bigs that are doing all the movement here and that they don't have any regulation to be had here. When I interviewed Sam Altman of OpenAI, He said, it's good when stakes are low to test this stuff now. And that was his way of talking about it. And he said he welcomed regulation. But this was interesting. There's a big fight breaking out among the AI people. And they're all warring with each other. Any thoughts?

Scott Galloway: Well, first off, I take seriously anything Tristan Harris says. I think he's a very thoughtful guy. He brings a scientific, data-driven approach to stuff. And I take him very seriously and have a lot of respect for him. So when I saw his name was on the letter, I thought, okay, I should read the letter and really think about this. And I'm down with this, as long as we can get China and Russia and North Korea to agree to the pause. And guess what? They're not going to. And the reason why I don't, I'll tell you why I don't think we should slow down and what is behind this letter. AI, I absolutely believe with Tristan and everyone else that has the power to be transformative and also could pose a significant threat just because by sheer virtue of its breakthrough power, technology potential. But I want us out ahead on this. I don't want the Russians developing the hydrogen bomb before us.

Kara Swisher: I see. Interesting hydrogen bomb.

Scott Galloway: And I think we have to be more aggressive and learn from the mistakes of the past and say we have to get, just like we have now Space Force that's building its own facility down in, I think, Alabama. We need a government body, a regulatory agency with ethicists like Tristan with very smart technologists that looks at new technologies that adopts them or absorbs them in for government funding. It should probably also be very crisply and aggressively integrated into our security apparatus as a tool. And we should be thinking about this and regulating it. But for God's sakes, do you think that anybody else is going to slow down on this? No.

Kara Swisher: It's interesting because I got a note from one of them and I said, it's fine to debate. You know, I was like, but they wrote back, I sent one that Emily Bender wrote, who was sort of on the, she's on the watch this stuff develop. But she wrote, okay, so that AI letter signed by lots of AI researchers calling for a pause on giant AI experiments. It's just dripping with hashtag AI hype. Here's a quick rundown. And then she went through it. And then I sent it to one of them. They said, it reminds me of the American left tearing itself apart in 1968 and paving the road for Nixon. and that OpenAI may well undermine the fabric of society, as Emily knows, and the OpenAI is only going to be too happy to see the opposition divide itself into little pieces. It feels a little alarmist, you know what I mean? Like, that's not really an argument one way or the other. And it is. It's a very complex situation, which benefits the big companies when it's a complex situation because no one's going to do anything, as one argues about whether to do anything. But, you know, I don't know Elon's stake in this. He's got a lot of different agendas, so you never know. But it's hard. He really did worry about this as the threat to humanity. He kept saying that early on.

Scott Galloway: Well, let me ask you this. This is a sincere question looking for an answer, not a comment posing as a question. My understanding is basically Elon Musk tried to take over OpenAI and was booted out. And yes?

Kara Swisher: Yes. Sort of? Sort of, yes.

Scott Galloway: Okay. If he had gotten control of open AI and he was in charge of this right now and had flipped it to a for-profit entity, do you think the guy that has been rolling out autonomous driving perhaps a little bit early that's been increasingly rolling out cars that appear to have some issues and there's massive recalls, do you think if he was in charge of this, he'd be calling for a slowdown?

Kara Swisher: I don't know. That's an interesting question. I think this has been of concern. In the genuine Elon Musk, I think it's been of concern. He really does believe this AI could kill us. He does. And I think he's, it's not a new thing. And I think the reason he started OpenAI because he was less than the AI he worried about who controls it the very big companies And that what he been tweeting lately And it been consistent with stuff he did before So that jibes that he does He's worried about the largeness of the companies who are controlling this. And he's worried about where it goes without any regulation. And that is consistent. So I do believe he's sincere in that because it's so long. It's been, you know, 20, 15 years about that. That said, I agree. This is a different Elon, and I think he's lost power, and so therefore he's signing it, right? So it's a kind of, I don't know what his agenda is. And I think we, let's leave him out of it. Some of the other people are very reasonable people who want to talk about this. And I think they're correct. And I think Tristan in this presentation, you know, talked about this. He called it Gollum AI, that you don't know what it's going to do, and there's damages behind the face of it. And I think he's correct. And so I think the thoughtfulness is not here. I don't quite know what to do about it because I think government intervention is not really the answer, particularly. And I think government should have been involved in the funding of this, which they weren't on the whole compared to other technologies. I think the alarmist stuff doesn't help it. I think you have to go, okay, it's good for this, this, this, and this. Here's the dangers. And there should be, I hate to say blue ribbon commission, but something outside of another agency, there needs to be a blue ribbon commission of people who disagree to discuss and debate so that we can at least understand where the alarms need to be. But it's, again, the bigness of the organizations dominating it is of concern to me. I don't know if it's going to kill humanity and, you know, run us over and put us in, you know, I don't know if it's the Terminator is where we're going to end up.

Scott Galloway: The Manhattan Project. We basically, towards the end of World War II, our spies said, oh, the Germans, the Nazi Party, they're working on jet engine technology such that they can attach a rocket to a jet engine and it can get to London in, you know, 17 minutes.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I agree. I think that's exactly the right metaphor.

Scott Galloway: And they thought if they get jet engine technology, and also we found out that they were working on nuclear fusion or fission or splitting the atom. And we grabbed their scientists. We grabbed their scientists. And so we got the best and brightest, put them in New Mexico, and it was a race. And there were a lot of people that knew, including Einstein, that were like, okay, this is gonna end up in bad places. The ability to split the atom is gonna have real negative consequences. But they said, we're in a race. And the lesser evil here will be if we're first. And that's how I feel about this. I don't doubt there are going to be really ugly things that come from this. I want to be first. If we could have an international treaty that would slow this down, I'd be down with it. I just don't think that's capable.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, it is like nuclear is the right one. I have become death. You know, there's a big movie about Oppenheimer coming from, I think, Chris Nolan. I think that's who did it. I'm fascinated by Oppenheimer. But let's get to our first big story. Misinformation is putting more lives at risk after a school shooting, this time at Covenant School in Nashville. After the attack left six dead, right-wing pundits, politicians, and news outlets seized on the shooter's possible transgender identity. It's not clear. Personalities, including Donald Trump Jr. and Marjorie Taylor Greene, always the same people threw out attacks at a wide swath of trans targets, including gender-affirming care and hormone replacement therapy, which this person- It hasn't been confirmed, right? We're not sure. Not at all. Not at all. Just using pronouns on a website, essentially, is all they got. Police haven't said anything about a motive, but of course, that's not the point. They use any opportunity to keep bashing away at trans people. Tucker Carlson is doing it right now. It's a weird obsession, but here they are. Remember after a shooting in Uvalde, there were conspiracy theories that the shooter was transgender and a leftist, not so. And after the Buffalo shooting, right-wing conspiracy theories claim that the shooting was a, quote, false flag. The theory was endorsed by an Arizona state senator. So weird. I don't know why we talk about gender identity when the vast majority of shootings are carried out, again, by cisgender males. I think it's 97, 98 percent, which nobody's really counting that, but that's what it is. Twitter says it removed more than 5,000 tweets because they contain information about upcoming trans rights protests at the Supreme Court. The protest is named the Trans Day of Vengeance. It's been in the works for a week, not the greatest title. Green and others say their Twitter accounts were temporarily limited after they called attention to the rally.

Scott Galloway: Oh, I don't know what to say. I mean, I'm sure you had the same reaction. It's like you hear about this news and you just go, oh, no. And you're like, how could it get any worse? you hear that this person is potentially trans and you know where it's going to go. You know, it's going to be on Fox. There'll be four to six hours or, you know, four to six, 60 minute news cycles where they say thoughts and prayers, and then they'll move to taking their only hammer. And so everything looks like a cultural war and going here. And if you were going to play identity politics here, you would say that we have to watch out for young heterosexual male introverts. And I stopped doing that. I used to say when I talk about struggling young men that we know who mass shooters are before we know. And I stopped leaning into that because the reality is 99.99% of introverted young men who aren't socially adept are not gonna pick up a gun and start killing other people. And you're only gonna make the issue worse if you stigmatize young heterosexual males. And this is just the same thing. This is a group of people who don't wanna govern, don't have, literally have no solutions. And so they just wanna delay and obfuscate. And what this is more than anything is a weapon of mass distraction in 1997. That's what it is.

Kara Swisher: Well, that's a twofer, I'll give you that. It's an opportunity to enrage and inflame people on things that don't affect us, but they think offend their core base.

Scott Galloway: There was a horrible school shooting in Scotland, in Dunblane. 18 people killed, including the shooter, 16 kids. Within weeks, the UK decided we cannot have this. And they passed gun registration, they banned handguns, weapons of war. And in the last 26 years, do you know how many school shootings there have been in the United Kingdom? Zero. Zero. So far in 2023 in the United States, We've had 13. In Japan, there'll be 10 gun deaths this year. Today, in America, there'll be 110. And so nobody wants to talk about, or not nobody, the right will do anything to distract us, including being bigoted fucking weirdos, to create a conversation like the one we just had because it crowds out the real conversation. A hundred percent.

Kara Swisher: And the ACLU is already tracking more than 400 bills in state legislatures targeting LGBTQ people. And trans rights are already in jeopardy in Tennessee. This Saturday, a law that criminalizes some drag performances in the state will go into effect. Meanwhile, in Kentucky on Wednesday, legislators overrode a governor's veto to pass a bill banning gender-affirming care and other trans rights. Let's talk about what they actually do, which is the point, which is gun violence. So in one viral clip, one Tennessee Republican congressman said the Congress had no role to play. Let's listen to it.

[Clip plays: Tim Burchett: We're not going to fix it. Criminals are going to be criminals. I don't see any real role that we could do other than mess things up, honestly, because of the situation. I don't think you're going to stop the gun violence. I think you've got to change people's hearts. Everybody just needs to tone down the rhetoric a little bit, because all that does is gin it up in both sides, and then they point the finger and nothing happens. Because if you think Washington's going to fix this problem, you're wrong. They're not going to fix this problem. They are the problem.]

Kara Swisher: It doesn't continue that other countries don't have this level of gun violence? countries don't have our freedom either. Actually, they do. Tim Burchett from Tennessee, they do have their freedom. We just have a lot of guns. It's the guns. It's the guns. Also, Democratic Congressman Jamal Bowman of New York got into a shouting match with a Republican colleague, Congressman Thomas Massey from Kentucky in the halls of Congress. Let's listen to that.

[Clip plays: Jamal Bowman: They're gutless. They're not here. I'm talking about gun violence. I'm talking about gun violence. A school that allows teachers to care. Carry guns? You think more guns lead to more death? More guns lead to more death. Look at the data. You're not looking at any data. You're carrying the water for the gun lobby.]

Kara Swisher: Bowman is a former middle school principal. He might know. It's just, these people are fucking useless. I don't know what to say.

Scott Galloway: Well, I try to move to like, okay, I would imagine almost everyone listening to this podcast realizes that They stand with NRA members and that most NRA members believe in background checks. I mean, even the card-carrying members of the NRA, most of them recognize we need to do something. It's the NRA leadership and Republicans who have decided they're taking money from what is arguably the most effective lobbying organization in the world, the NRA. And it continues to be unneeded. It is now, it kills more kids. There's going to be more toddlers killed than police officers this year. We have, it's the largest cause of death for children now. And the way I move to, okay, we're outraged. The way I move to, okay, all the emotion, all the anger, all the disgust, like I try to move to what can we do to try and motivate people to vote for someone different, to decide finally if someone like this representative from Tennessee probably shouldn't get your vote, what I would tell you is the following. I have noticed two big things about my move to London. The first is the weather fucking sucks, but that's another talk show. The second thing is that I didn't realize, I did not realize what a weight I was carrying on my shoulders every time I pulled up to drop off or pick up my kids at school. And when I did it in Florida, I just couldn't help but have very ugly images pop into my mind. I would literally think about what happens, what do I do if I turn on the TV and I see on CNN a helicopter shot of my kid's school? Because I would know exactly what that meant. It happens a lot. What would I do? And I used to think, okay, is there some sort of technology solution where I plan an escape proof for my kid. I mean, one time I dropped off my kid at our school and he was late. And I took him into his classroom and I was leaving the classroom. And this was right after Parkland. And there was an older woman there. And she followed me out of the school. And on the way out, she said, can I help you? And she wasn't even a school administrator. She was a concerned grandmother. People were so paranoid. People were so freaked out that when they saw someone they hadn't seen before on the campus of the school, they went to the worst place possible.

Kara Swisher: Of course.

Scott Galloway: And we hear about, obviously, the devastation of the individuals, but Americans have decided it's likely not going to happen to me. And so they don't take action, or at least that's the only thing I can figure out. This is the price they've decided it's okay to pay. They just do.

Kara Swisher: Even, it was interesting, the Washington Post had an amazing piece about the parents of several people who were killed at these various shootings, including Sandy Hook and Parkland, allowed the Post to create recreations of what happened to their kid and how this AR-15 ripped them apart. And so they showed how it looked, like what this, as opposed to a regular gun, which is apparently less damaging, damaging nonetheless, but this AR-15 is like, it destroys people, pulverizes people. And so they let them do it. And it was a computer simulation. It still was so sad and upsetting. I have always been a proponent of show the pictures, show the fucking pictures, of get the parents to let people see the damage. And we're protected from it, from the damage. The media should just put the pictures up and say, is this what you want? This works. Now, there's a danger of becoming war porn. Like, I think that's always, they always protect people from those photos. But to me, I feel like it's done. Let's show them. Let's show them what's happening precisely. And I think we do a disservice when we don't do it. And I know it's a controversial thing when I say that, but it just seems like it's the only thing that's going to shock people out of it. because that said, they watch, I was thinking about how much violence there is on television and how many decades we're so used to watching shoot them ups and Westerns and all the movies, like we're sort of a nerd to the violence because there's so much we see on television or through horror movies, et cetera. So I don't know if that would work even.

Scott Galloway: What you're talking about happened and it was very effective. And it was in 1955, a 14 year old African-American boy, Emmett Till, was lynched in Mississippi, and then they mutilated his body. And his mother, when they did the funeral in Chicago, requested and got an open casket. And it was a key moment, because people just saw the horror of this. And I agree with you. I think that is an unfortunate and necessary thing that needs to happen. But what I'm just saying to other Americans, As someone who's living abroad now, I will absolutely move back to America. I love America. I miss it. I pay American taxes. But that constant level of anxiety will return. I have to say, every time I think about moving, sometimes I think, oh, maybe, you know, this is going badly kind of thing. Gun violence is the reason.

Kara Swisher: I certainly won't move to certain states because I'm like, forget it. There's too many guns there, right? They're everywhere, of course, but it's a consideration. It certainly is.

Scott Galloway: Well, just look at the data. I mean, it's just this ridiculous notion that there's nothing that we can do in the only nation this happens. Your tautology doesn't, I mean, just doesn't make any goddamn sense. I urge everyone go back and look at Michael Moore's movie, which is still very powerful. You can have your opinions about Michael Moore, but that movie is something else, Bowling for Columbine. I think he was making these points, wow, 20 years ago. It's a movie well worth going back and looking at and why here versus anywhere else, this combination of fear-based, everybody needs a gun because they need to protect themselves.

Kara Swisher: Again, the Post, which has been doing amazing coverage of AR-15s, et cetera, interviewed 15 people with AR-15s. I urge you to go look at that, too. They all think their families are under siege. They do. And no matter what you tell them, it's really hard to eradicate feelings like this among our populace about being under siege and living in fear.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, but it's, again, another example of minority rule. The majority of Americans are for some gun regulation. They recognize this is out of control.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Scott Galloway: Just as the majority of America believes that women should have access to family planning.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Scott Galloway: But we now have minority rule. Minority rule. You're 100% right.

Kara Swisher: 32 trans people were killed last year. They typically the victims of violent crime One of the deadliest mass shootings in America targeted patrons at the Pulse Club and Club Q in Colorado also And for those who are attacking trans people about this Tucker Carlson tweeted that the trans movement is Christian his natural enemy, using this opportunity to do that. And so for those people, go fuck yourself in that regard. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about China and Sam Bankman-Fried and hear from a listener who saw you on Bill Maher. How exciting, exciting. I heard you were on Bill Maher, Scott.

Scott Galloway: That's right. I was with a cat.

Kara Swisher: You wish you were the cat.

[Ad break]

Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, we're back with our second big story. Chinese e-commerce giant Alibaba is splitting into six smaller companies. Alibaba announced the move Tuesday, just one day after founder Jack Ma reappeared in China after nearly a year abroad. Ma's visit could signal an end to China's crackdown on big tech. That campaign started in November of 2020 when the Chinese government canceled a $33 billion IPO for Ant Group, another Jack Ma company. Alibaba's stock is up on the news and more could be on the way. Five of the six future spinoffs could IPO. I don't even know what's happening here. I don't know why Jack Ma went back to China. I think what they've done to him is really to see a quiet Jack Ma is such a shock and an acquiescent Jack Ma. But here we are. What do you think of this spinning it off? I mean, could be a good thing instead of having one giant company that runs all. What do we think of this?

Scott Galloway: It's a great idea for shareholders. If you think about what happens is the CEOs of companies want to reduce their indigestion and they buy, they make acquisitions. A, they want to get paid more. And the easiest way to get paid more is to make a bigger company because the compensation committee will base compensation based on the size of the company. So it's always tempting. And always the idea of a great acquisition is so tempting that CEOs constantly overpay. Two-thirds of acquisitions end up destroying shareholder value. But what you end up with is these Frankensteins, these conglomerations.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Scott Galloway: And the issue is it's good for the CEO because the CEO is like, oh, my cloud division was down, but my e-commerce division or my payments division is up. And it smooths out their earnings, makes things easier for them. But here's the thing. You don't, as an investor, need the CEO to diversify for you. You can buy separate stocks. And what you want as an investor is you want to see you on a management team focused on one type of business that they can be fully accountable and responsible for. And so one of the easiest ways to unlock shareholder value, and it's kind of a go-to in the activist playbook, is the deconglomeration or breakup of companies. Because what happens, Kara, is when you have a company that has so many different units that it's hard to suss out and companies will start playing hide the ball in terms of reporting and they'll cherry pick which numbers they want to report from which divisions. So the market gets frustrated. And what the market decides to do in these conglomerates that are impossible to value is they find the shittiest business and they assign that multiple to the entire business.

Kara Swisher: Oh, interesting.

Scott Galloway: So the New York Times company traded at a multiple on EBITDA of four or five because that's what newspapers should go for, even though it owned the seventh tallest building in America, its headquarters, even though it owned 17% of the Boston Red Sox, even though it owned About.com. So the moment you unlock value from a conglomerate that isn't getting any scale or real synergy here other than reducing the headaches and the indigestion of the CEO, the disposition of assets is accretive for shareholders. This is a great idea.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. Okay. I still think what they did to these executives is really unusual, sort of squashing them. I'm not saying a breakup is analogous to disappearing CEOs.

Scott Galloway: No, no, not at all.

Kara Swisher: So it'll be interesting to see what happens to ByteDance and Tencent. And there's some really interesting signs. China, they may be worried about the TikTok effect here. Other signs of a possible tech thought in China this month. Tim Cook and the CEO of Qualcomm both appeared in China in recent days. China's video game regulator approved a batch of foreign titles. And ride-hailing app Didi announced plans for expansion. They could be like, ugh, we pushed it way too far. I don't know.

Scott Galloway: That is exactly what it is. This is the closest Xi will ever come to a charm tour.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Scott Galloway: He's basically wrapped a knuckle so hard he's cut off the fingers, a couple fingers of the Chinese internet economy.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Scott Galloway: And his economists or whoever have sat him down and said, okay, if we're going to continue to bring millions of people out of poverty, We got to let our thoroughbreds run. And they are on a charm tour right now. Hey, Jack, come back. Yeah. Say hi. We're going to maybe, you watch. There's going to be ribbon cuttings. There were a lot of photos of him.

Kara Swisher: I'm always fascinated by how they do their PR in China. You know, it was interesting. Yeah, we'll see. But I think it's the same thing in Israel with Netanyahu. All these tech companies were like, see you later, sir. With American tech, it's going to happen next. They're going to do a bunch of photo ops and a bunch of ribbon cuttings with American tech companies.

Scott Galloway: Who is?

Kara Swisher: Oh, in China. Because everyone says how vulnerable Apple is to this tumult in China. They are. It's the second biggest market. That's where they make their iPhones. Tesla.

Scott Galloway: China is just as vulnerable. I mean, if these companies pull out of China and tens of millions of people are out of work overnight, I mean, that could be. Keep in mind, you can't vote the party out of office here. It's called revolution. So in some ways, they are very receptive to the goings on of the people, if you will. But this is a charm tour. This is a charm offensive. China, you're in it with us, whether you like it or not. Fighting with this is probably not a great idea.

Kara Swisher: One person who's in big trouble in China is Sam Bankman-Fried. Remember him?

Kara Swisher: The FTX founder is charged with bribing Chinese officials to unfreeze trading accounts held by Alameda Research. Prosecutors say SBF first tried to hire lawyers to lobby Chinese officials and made fake accounts to trick them. That didn't work. They claim he greased some palms. This guy is going to jail forever.

Scott Galloway: I mean, you know, well, what do we say about this? Nothing. Yeah, there you go.

Kara Swisher: I mean, the judge is just going to, the sentencing hearing here is going to be really ugly.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. Just pile it on. Put it on the top.

Kara Swisher: Oh my gosh, yeah. Honestly, he's going to pay for all the sins of crypto. So they're looking at other companies. Binance is also being scrutinized. Anyway.

[Transition]

Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, let's pivot to a listener question. You've got, you've got. I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman. You've got mail. This question comes in via email. I'll read it. "Dear Scott, it's only to you. I thought you did a great job on Real Time Friday night. However, I disagree with your statement that senior poverty has been eliminated. I see stories on news about seniors having to make choices to get their meds or food. My own mother has worked for over 35 years on her feet to raise me and has never struggled more than in her retirement. My mother's debt has increased exponentially. She's tried to pay for her meds, keep a roof over her head and food on her table at 92 years old. The last thing my mother should have to worry about is staying afloat. I think as a country, we're a long way from seniors feeling socially secure. A dedicated pivot listener, Sid, please address."

Kara Swisher: Let me just give you a couple of statistics. In 2021, the national poverty rate for people over 65 was more than 10%. That's lower than the national rate for all age groups, which is 12.8%. But 2.3 million older adults on supplemental security income, SSI, receive less than $600 a month on average. Scott?

Scott Galloway: So I want to acknowledge the point. And unfortunately on television, and I realize I sound defensive, you have to be a bit reductive. But I stand by the general statement. In 1960, people over the age of 65, over a third of them lived in poverty. It was 35%. And because of Social Security, it's been reduced to 10%. So the reduction in poverty has been greatest among seniors largely because of what many people argue is the most successful social program in history across every geography, and that's Social Security. Senior poverty used to be a real scourge. And it's now more the exception than the rule.

Scott Galloway: So I've learned a lot about Social Security because I find the transfer of money from young people to old people, it doesn't make any sense to me that the wealthiest generation in history gets a transfer payment of a trillion dollars from younger people. But having said that, when I did the real homework on it, it is a very successful program. And I want to acknowledge that there are seniors who are struggling. I didn't mean to be that reductive. But senior poverty has been reduced from 35% to 10%.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. You know, I just got my notice of when I can take Social Security. It was funny because I'm just turned 60.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, you're getting up there.

Kara Swisher: I know, I know.

Scott Galloway: If I were you, I wouldn't even buy green bananas.

Kara Swisher: It's interesting, though, when you take the Social Security, how much more you get if you keep working until 70 or something. 67, whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah, it's really, I was, I'd never seen the numbers. It also showed how much money I had put in, which is interesting. And then I was like, do I, should I take this out? Because I don't need it necessarily. But then again, I put it in. You know what I mean? Like it was my money that went.

Scott Galloway: Well, and also if you want to secure Social Security and let's go to, it's a great program. Let's secure it. In 2033, it's out of money.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Scott Galloway: If you want to secure it. So someone making $150,000 a year pays 6% or approximately $10,000 in the Social Security fund. Someone making a million and a half dollars a year pays $10,000 because the cap on it is, I think, $147,000. So if you lifted the cap and you stopped Social Security tax being a regressive tax, just made it a flat tax, not even progressive, but not regressive, then where someone like me pays 0.6% versus everyone else that pays 6%, it would be solidified and funded forever. That's how it should happen.

Kara Swisher: I would agree with you, Scott Galloway. Rich people shave more in, depending on income. But we're not going to do that, are we?

Scott Galloway: You know what? When you just think, speaking of money and being frugal as you get older, as I've gotten older, I've decided, like, I actually don't really love strip clubs, but I go because sometimes they have the best deals on breakfast buffets, Kara. It's just a responsible thing to do.

Kara Swisher: Are you frugal? I wouldn't say you're frugal. Let's not get into this one.

Scott Galloway: To swing by Glory Girls at 11 in the morning. It's just, it's the smart thing to do.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. Yeah. On this argument, I am much frugler than you in general. I'm a frugal person. I think spending money is wonderful.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. As long as it's not BNPL.

Kara Swisher: Okay.

Scott Galloway: Because God can pay up front. Buy now, pay now. Buy now. BNPN. Buy now, pay now.

Kara Swisher: Why don't we suggest that to the seniors? Anyway, Sid, thank you for your note. It was very thoughtful and you're right. TV is reductive. And I think Scott is making a larger point, which he's also correct on. I can't believe I'm saying that.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, if you've got a question of your own you'd like answered, send it our way. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT.

[Ad break]

Kara Swisher: All right, Scott, one more break and we'll be back for predictions.

[Ad continues]

Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, let's hear a prediction.

Scott Galloway: I have one very quickly. Our blue checks are getting taken away. And there's also a very special group of people on Twitter that get to. We learned they had a secret list of VIPs whose tweets are boosted. Some names, LeBron James, AOC, and Elon Musk. So anyway, our blue checks are getting taken away.

Kara Swisher: So I had my first bug on Twitter. You've been saying it's buggy. I have been locked out of Twitter for two days. I can't log on.

Scott Galloway: Oh, yeah. It's been doing that.

Kara Swisher: That's a new bug.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. A lot of people.

Kara Swisher: I requested a new password and I just couldn't log on. It just kept giving me these error messages.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. That's a good thing. It's happening.

Scott Galloway: So, I have two predictions. My first is that Chelsea will beat Austin Villa on Sunday. I'm going to the game with my 12-year-old. We're super excited.

Kara Swisher: All right. That's going to be very exciting.

Scott Galloway: But look, I made this prediction last year and it was wrong because the stocks have got on Alibaba. That's gotten cut in half. But Alibaba and Chinese internet stocks are going to continue their tear because the chill has been lifted. And Aswata Motor and OS says that when you're making an investment in a Chinese stock, you have the CCP in the room with you. And for the last two to three years, the CCP has been a wind in the face of private internet companies or publicly traded internet companies. It's about to become a wind at their back. And with COVID over the lockdowns, with China opening up again, I think you're going to see a mini boom. The NASDAQ is up in the US. It hasn't recovered as much in China. Well, actually, the last three months has been pretty strong. But this breakup, you're going to see some IPOs over there. We're about to see a regression to the mean for Chinese internet stocks, a continued regression of the mean where they accelerate. And Alibaba will probably lead the pack.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. Oh, interesting. Okay.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. I just think the government, I think these companies have been beaten down so badly, even with their bounce back from November of last year, these companies, Chinese internet companies are still cheap compared to their peers and other mature markets. And the unknown here, the reason they'd been battered so hard was the wind in their face of the CCP. And the CCP has clearly decided, okay, they've learned. Jack Ma's in line. Everyone's fallen in line. The US is pissed about TikTok. We're not going to stop.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. Let's turn the wind machine on. Yeah, probably a good idea to be doing the same thing in Israel, as I was saying. Anyway, that's a very good prediction. That's an excellent prediction.

Kara Swisher: And that's the show. We'll be back on Tuesday with more Pivot. Scott, please read us out.

Scott Galloway: Today's show is produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie and Jertot engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Miel Silverio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Kara, have a great weekend.

Kara Swisher: Thanks, you too.