Trump Indictments, Blind Side Drama, and Co-Host Don Lemon

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Kara Swisher: Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher, and I'm in my prime. That's because my co-host today is journalist and anchor Don Lemon. Don, I had to do it. I'm sorry.

Don Lemon: I'm glad you are because I'm not. I'm old.

Kara Swisher: I'm sorry. I'm not.

Don Lemon: You're old. You're old. You're not in your prime. Creaky.

Kara Swisher: When was your prime? When was your prime exactly?

Don Lemon: Gosh, I don't know. I'm joking around a little bit, but 10, 15 years ago I could run 10 miles and not die. But I think it's individual. Obviously we're joking around, but I think people get to decide when they're in their prime.

Kara Swisher: Yes, I agree. We're in the prime all the time. I've been in my prime since I was born. Anyway, I want to talk a little bit about, this is the first time you've talked since you left CNN. I think you talked a little bit on Twitter, actually, about being let go. It's been four months. First of all, what have you been up to? What have you been doing?

Don Lemon: I've been traveling a lot, actually. Spending time with my family, my fiance and my dogs. I've been to Baton Rouge, where my family lives. I've gone to New Orleans. I've gone to Park City. And I've gone to Italy. I've spent some time in Europe. And I've been talking to a lot of people. People approach me all the time and talk to me about issues. But you know what? Guess what they don't really talk about?

Kara Swisher: What don't they talk about?

Don Lemon: They don't talk about indictments. Very rarely do people talk to me about Donald Trump and indictments. They talk to me about issues that are pertinent to them in their everyday lives, like feeding their families and crime and that sort of thing.

Kara Swisher: So have you learned something? Because a lot of your shows at CNN did focus on those kinds of things. What has it taught you?

Don Lemon: That we all live in bubbles. You think that every single person is paying attention and they're as up to date as we are about the news and the issues, and they're following every single development with Donald Trump in politics. And they're not. Very rarely do people talk to me about Donald Trump and about indictments, even with the latest ones that are happening now. They do talk to me about crime, homelessness, mental health, being worried about walking down the street in certain parts of the country, in certain cities. They want to be able to afford their families, how high rents are, how mortgage rates. That's what they talk to me about. And they say they miss me on CNN.

Kara Swisher: But you did spend a lot of time talking about Trump. Do you rethink that? Because you were one of his biggest critics. You reported on it every night, you and Chris Cuomo and many others at CNN. And right now, it's all Donald Trump all the time on that network and a lot of cable networks.

Don Lemon: I think it was a moment then. There was a Trump moment. There was a COVID moment. But I think people are over it when it comes to Donald Trump. I think they understand that he is, at the very least, unethical and possibly a criminal. And so I think people get it, and they've moved on with their lives. If there is some big breaking news like the developments that happen, I think people tune in for a moment. But what I think people have realized now is that they can be informed about issues that come to Donald Trump, but they don't have to be inundated. I have watched very minimal cable news over the past four months.

Kara Swisher: You have?

Don Lemon: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: Has that been good for you?

Don Lemon: It's been the best. I think the experience that I've had just traveling around the country talking to people has been an invaluable lesson, a lesson that I would not have gotten unless this happened to me at CNN. I was at a wedding in New Orleans with my fiance's former colleagues, a lot of conservative, Joe Rogan-type guys. And also in Park City. People were shocked at how all of these guys wanted to talk to me. They wanted to have selfies. They wanted to engage. And they said, "Man, we never saw the side of you on CNN. Why not? I wish you would go on Joe Rogan. You should do this because I think it's important. I would listen to you." So that's been a very valuable lesson for me.

Kara Swisher: Let's talk a little bit about what happened. There were so many reports flying around when you departed. You know I called you and said, "I think you're in trouble" before it happened, largely because things started to bubble up. And you had the Nikki Haley comment that you made about "prime," which I just joked about. She says politicians or something are not in their prime. Nikki Haley isn't in her prime. When a woman is considered to be in her prime in her 20s and 30s and maybe 40s. That's not according to me. Prime for what? It depends. If you Google "when is a woman in her prime," it'll say 20s, 30s, and 40s. If you want to address that, you can. But first, I'd love you to say what happened from your perspective. And since then, Chris Licht, who called you a lightning rod at the time, was out, which must... I don't know if it had schadenfreude for you. But talk a little bit about what happened from your perspective.

Don Lemon: I'll tell you what I've come to know now that I didn't know at the time. More so than anything, CNN's strategy and the content and the direction they wanted to go in, I was not a part of that. They did not want me to be a part of that. And from what has played out publicly as it relates to CNN, as it relates to management and what they're doing now, I think it's obvious that they didn't want me to be a part of that. And I think that's a real issue.

Kara Swisher: But that changed with Licht, right? Because he came in and went on and on about centrism, which I thought was kind of ridiculous. You just do what you do, or you make the changes and you don't talk about it. Do you think you don't fit into the new CNN, or that they have made changes? Because it's not that different from when you were there in terms of reporting and other things.

Don Lemon: Well, I don't know. I haven't watched since I've been there. But I know when I was there, I was not a part of their strategy. And as you just said, they wanted to be centrist and move the network in a certain direction, which was kind of surprising because I think the news is the news. You don't choose a direction. It just is.

Kara Swisher: So what do you think people got wrong about you leaving? And what happened later is the person who had really fired you, essentially, got fired. I think that says it all. What more do I need to say?

Don Lemon: I mean, what more do I need to say?

Kara Swisher: You haven't talked to him, have you?

Don Lemon: No. Why on earth would I do that? I have not spoken to him.

Kara Swisher: But how do you think it vindicates you?

Don Lemon: Yes, I do. Because I read the story and you speak to the people who are there. And I think people get what happened. All you have to do is read the Atlantic story, read the subsequent stories that came out and how it played out. And they're gone now. So do I feel vindicated in that sense? Yes, I do.

Kara Swisher: Do you feel like you made any mistakes? Because you've had, over the many years, lots of anchors, not just you, have had issues, said things that you didn't mean. Obviously, the Nikki Haley comments, I think it was just used as a predicate to move you along. Or the Vivek Ramaswamy ones, which I watched again and thought, "I'm not sure what's wrong here," particularly. It's an argument and debate with someone who has a particular point of view. Do you feel bad about saying those things?

Don Lemon: I think probably in the Nikki Haley comments. I'm not so sure about Vivek. Well, let me just say, you've watched cable news. I would sit there three hours, sometimes four hours or longer, either at night or a day, and there are no teleprompters in that. You're having conversations. And anchors say things all the time that they wish they hadn't. People on television say things all the time. You've said things before, I'm sure, that came out wrong, that you wish you had said in a different way.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. I don't get into trouble like you did. I don't get into trouble, which is interesting.

Don Lemon: Well, I hadn't gotten into trouble for making mistakes before because I would apologize for them or explain what I intended to say. And it would be fine because I think people understood that that's the way it works in television. I think what you're insinuating, and what you said, that there were some issues at play that I wasn't aware of, I said that in my statement that I released on Twitter after I left CNN. So I think we're saying the same thing.

Kara Swisher: Right. And when you think about the comment about Haley, you did explain it and apologize, but you weren't allowed to say it right away. Is that correct?

Don Lemon: If you're asking, I'm going to speak the truth now. I was never allowed to address the issue on the air. I wish that I could have, but I was never allowed to.

Kara Swisher: I always kept thinking if Jeff Zucker had been there, in five seconds you would have said, "Oh my God, I can't believe I'm such an asshole" or something like that.

Don Lemon: Yes. And I probably would have said it like that. And you're speaking my language now. The best news executive that I've ever worked for in my entire 20-some years, almost 30 years in this business, was Jeff Zucker. He understood that when you're in those conversations, just as in your regular conversations across the dinner table or at a restaurant, you don't always say things perfectly. And he was very supportive of us. He wanted us to not necessarily be provocative, but just to be ourselves. And if we got something wrong, we apologized, we explained it, and he supported us and we moved on. It doesn't have to be the end of the world or a big issue unless you're looking for a reason to get rid of someone.

Kara Swisher: Actually, which is why I texted you. I was like, "Oh no." After I saw that one story, I was like, "Oh dear, this is going to be used." So you just mentioned Jeff Zucker. I agree with you. I think he's the most talented television executive, one of them. Do you think he should go back? I know there's rumors that he wanted to acquire CNN. His representatives and associates have denied them, but it's pretty clear CNN is on the market. It feels like it's going on the market, or maybe they aren't replacing Chris Licht yet. They have a group of people you worked with for a long time, most of them. Do you think he should buy it, or what should happen to it?

Don Lemon: That's a big question. Look, there's this whole story in the media that I was on vacation with Jeff and we were discussing it. None of that's true. I don't discuss CNN, and I very frequently talk about it or think about it. You know me a little bit. I look to the future and I live in the present. I look to the future. I don't look back. I had 17, almost 17 great years at CNN. And the last part, that wasn't so great, but hey, it is what it is. I'm just going to be really honest with you. There isn't a better person alive who could run CNN. And I don't know if there's anyone who could do it. I mean, someone can do it. I don't know if they'll do it well, but I think the best person to run CNN was and would be Jeff Zucker. Do I think he's going to go back? No. Do I think he's going to buy it? You'd have to ask him. I doubt it. I don't talk to him about those things.

Kara Swisher: But why would he in this environment? Considering what's happening now, why would he want to go back and subject himself to that?

Don Lemon: Well, there's a scenario where you could do things with it. Just because something is waning at this point doesn't mean it has to wane. If anyone could save CNN if it needs saving, it would be Jeff Zucker.

Kara Swisher: It's interesting. I know you're not watching it, but they announced a new primetime lineup. All women, except for Anderson Cooper. Abby Phillip in your old 10 p.m. slot. Do you have any advice for them at all?

Don Lemon: That they needed two people to replace me? [Laughs] Kidding. I don't know what advice I would give them because I think the environment that they're working in is different than the environment that I worked in.

Kara Swisher: Tell me, why is it different?

Don Lemon: Because I was given the freedom to be me. And I didn't have to suffer with election deniers. I didn't have to platform people who weren't deserving of the platform. Now, listen, I don't know if that's what's going on with them, but I didn't have to deal with any of those things. But look, those guys are the best in the business. Abby is very talented. Laura Coates is very talented. They're going to do things on their own. I don't think that they need any advice from me. Any advice I would say is, Abby, just be the great person that you are. And I would tell Laura just to be the smart attorney that she is and just to be themselves.

Kara Swisher: Well, there's a lot of legal stuff. We are going to unfortunately talk about Trump because there is a lot of news in that. We have a lot of things to talk about, actually. But let me just say, you and I, speaking of that, when you think about where you are, you were 17 years at CNN. You and I chatted on my old show back in 2021 on Sway at the New York Times. In that interview, I asked where we'd find Don Lemon in 10 years. Here's what you said. Let's listen to it.

[Audio clip plays]

Don Lemon (in clip): So here's the thing. Don't tell anybody. I really love what I do. And I love being on in a time where I have almost complete editorial freedom. Maybe I could have that editorial freedom at nine. I'm not sure. But I think at 10 o'clock, I can pretty much say and do whatever I want and I do. So I think you'll see me, you might see me doing the same thing, but differently, maybe on my own network. Maybe it'll be a Don Lemon subscription network?

Kara Swisher: Oh, Don Lemon subscription. Don Lemon Plus.

Don Lemon (in clip): Don Lemon Plus. Manifesting.

[End of clip]

Kara Swisher: Is that still in play? I'll ask the same question. Where will we find Don Lemon in 10 years?

Don Lemon: There are a lot of things in play. Listen, I think that, correct me if I'm wrong, Kara, I was having dinner with an old friend last night who was in television, who ran a network for a long time. And he said that just recently, streaming and digital or online had surpassed linear television for the first time.

Kara Swisher: Yes.

Don Lemon: So if that gives you an indication of where I'm going, and I don't know if it's streaming, but it's going to be probably streaming and in the digital space. It doesn't mean that I don't want to work in traditional linear television anymore, especially over the next 14 months. I expect to have a voice, so stay tuned for that. But I think I want to do something next that scares the shit out of me. I had a very successful career in cable news for a long time. I got to do and say exactly what I wanted to. I have and had a very important voice that most people don't get to hear on that platform and still don't. And I expect that to continue, but I'm going to lean into the future of this medium and do something that scares me.

Kara Swisher: So Don Lemon Plus. Interesting. So would that be like a show? Would you join Chris over at News Nation? Twitter? Podcast? I assume you're not going to join Tucker Carlson over there. I know you two had that back and forth right when you left. I think I wrote you, "Please don't."

Don Lemon: No, it's not that. Look, I think because of the weird universe, the timing of the firing, yeah, of both of us at the same time. It was like, "Hey, how weird is this?" I think of you together all the time. I think about you and Tucker as joined at the hip.

Kara Swisher: You do?

Don Lemon: But no. Tucker and I are not friends. And I don't know what's in our future. Listen, I never say never to working with anyone. I would like to be able to reach a bigger and different audience. I don't want to keep preaching to the choir. And I don't want to keep preaching to a diminishing audience or speaking to a diminishing audience. I would like to grow my audience and be able to reach more people. As I said, I was, quite frankly, pleasantly surprised by how many people I thought would hate me, because a lot of them do. But after engaging with them, they were very interested and wanted to hear what I had to say. And actually, I think I've reached some of them and changed their minds. I just think that sometimes it's very unidimensional when you're on television. You're doing one singular thing and people only hear one thing from you. And what people don't get, especially what's happened to me over the last couple of months, is that you don't always say things that you necessarily believe. Sometimes you have to play devil's advocate. Sometimes you have to say, "Well, there are people who are out there who may believe this to be true. What do you think about that?" And I think we get so upset by that, saying, "Oh my God, I can't believe that they're doing that," or "You're saying that doesn't mean that I believe that." Sometimes you're just being analytical or you're trying to create a conversation, and then you end up chastising people or canceling them. We have to stop that because then you have fake conversations.

Kara Swisher: Oh, I agree. I have a lot of people I disagree with. I mean, look at you and Scott.

Don Lemon: Yeah. I would love to have a relationship on television or on a podcast or on whatever it is I choose to do like you and Scott have, because it's real. And there are no snowflakes in these conversations.

Kara Swisher: No, it gives people permission to disagree. If he says something stupid, I laugh at it and know what it's meant as. I think it gives people permission to calm the fuck down.

Don Lemon: Yeah, and you know it's not him. It's you two bantering.

Kara Swisher: Sometimes it is. Sometimes he and I had a trans argument that was quite substantive. It was interesting because we learned from each other. He calls me the mayor of Woke-istan, but I don't think I am. Anyway, it's an interesting relationship.

Don Lemon: I think that's great. And we should talk about trans issues too because people actually talk to me about that more than they talk to me about indictments.

Kara Swisher: Oh, interesting. Okay, well, we will talk about that. We're going to get into issues. Last question I have: when you say "more sides of Don Lemon," that Don Lemon contains multitudes, is that interviewing? Is that singing? What is that?

Don Lemon: It's honestly, Kara, I didn't expect to go this far, but I will a little bit. It's all of it. You'll see me doing something that is multifaceted. It will be more than one platform. And if I decide to do it, but as you know, I don't have to rush back to work. So I'll see, but I'm going to sort of figure it out. It's a good time for me to figure it out. I just don't want my voice to be lost over the next 14 months. So invite me back on as often as possible.

Kara Swisher: I shall, 100%. All right, Don, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about the latest Trump indictment.

[Ad break]

Kara Swisher: Don, we're back for our second big story. I know you don't want to talk about Trump, but this is a big deal this week with Fani Willis.

Don Lemon: It's OK. He's calling it a witch hunt. I want to see the new Don.

Kara Swisher: Surprise, surprise. After we recorded the pod earlier this week, we learned that former President Trump had been indicted yet again, this time in Georgia. His new 13 counts include racketeering, making false statements, pressuring public officials to violate their oath of office. He's accompanied by 18 of his crew: Rudy Giuliani, Mark Meadows, and Jenna Ellis. If you're keeping score at home, that makes four indictments for Trump in the last five months. Two federal cases, one New York criminal case, one Georgia criminal case, with a total of 91 felony counts between the four indictments. He has until noon on August 25th to voluntarily surrender to authorities where he will have a mugshot and fingerprints. Do you think he shows up on the 25th?

Don Lemon: That's the question, isn't it? Because then what do you do? There are really no levers in our Constitution that can prevent him from running. You hit upon a very interesting conversation that I've been talking to people about. Look, I think that it is good that finally Donald Trump and all of his cronies may be facing some very tough consequences, and they should. But if people are sitting at home all day in front of cable news thinking that they're going to see Donald Trump in an orange jumpsuit, I don't really think that's going to happen. The consequences and the ramifications of putting a former president in jail are really tough because of who you're going to put him in with. What do you do with the Secret Service? What does that mean for state secrets? How does that compromise the country? So I think, in the end, there will be some sort of deal made. But the question is, what do you do with him? Is he above the law? In many ways, he is above the law. And I know that's awful. People don't want to hear it. He will go and he'll have to face the process. But then in the end, do you want someone, even if you think Donald Trump is the most terrible person on earth, he was the leader of the free world and he knows a lot. And what position does that put his family in if he's in jail with someone and they threaten him? "You tell me this," or... I'm just going through the motions.

Kara Swisher: Well, most people think he'd probably be under house arrest at Mar-a-Lago. So if he's under house arrest at Mar-a-Lago, that's fine. I think that's good if he is indeed found guilty. And when I say to people, "Do you really think Donald Trump is going to jail?" And I say, "I don't think it's going to happen." And they'll say, "Well, maybe they can strike a deal where he won't run for public office." And I think that's also a good compromise as well. The best option, I think, quite frankly, would be for him to go to jail. I'm just being a realist here. How does that happen? Are we surprised that all of these people were doing what they were doing? How long have we known this, Kara? We've known this for a long time. You had it on your show. The New York Times had it. Washington Post had a lot of this. Nothing is fresh and new here from a reporting perspective. It's just the detail.

Don Lemon: It's the detail. No, I reported on Fani Willis back in February or March, I think February, that she was going to use the RICO statute to go after Donald Trump and that it was a top-down issue for him. That he was directing, or people in high positions were directing people in lower positions to do certain things, and they were going to use a RICO statute. And what happened just a couple of days ago is just finally come to fruition. But I had that reporting exclusively a couple of months ago.

Kara Swisher: It's something we've typically seen prosecuting members of organized crime. That's how Rudy Giuliani used it to great effect, in fact. And he's now being subject to it. It's fantastic.

Don Lemon: Well, what do you think? Are you surprised by all of this? Do you think he'll go to jail?

Kara Swisher: No, I do not. I think the technicalities of putting a former president in jail... I think he will push it right up to the line.

Don Lemon: I agree. He's taking a big risk. But at the same time, as I had on Chris Christie recently in an interview, he said he's terrified of jail. There may be a part of his lizard brain that says, "Oh no, this is a big risk." And he eventually went bankrupt, right? He eventually does take his medicine on some level. I think no one is above the law. I do think the law needs to be flexible in this weird, weird situation of a person who's shameless. That's really weird. People will get upset for hearing us say that. And that's the issue that we were talking about, even if you're just analytical. Technically, how do you do that? Honestly, considering what Donald Trump has done to me, the safety of my family, as you know, I dealt with death threats. I had to go and do victim impact statements in court. He called me all kinds of names. The only thing he didn't... What's the word that he's using?

Don Lemon: The only thing that he didn't call me publicly was rigors. But wow, you know, he's using the rigors word. Never mind. Yeah, whatever. Yeah. But um, so would I like to see him in jail if he is found guilty? Yes. But do I think that is going to happen? The technicalities, as you say, I think it's very difficult for that. But you're disappointing a lot of people by saying what you're saying, you know that, right?

Kara Swisher: Yes, no, I get it. I get it. I just, I'm like, technically speaking now.

Don Lemon: I do think one way it might be different is a visual state rules would allow for a televised trial here, which he would love. It also, as I said, might see a mugshot, which may be good and bad for Trump. That's when people will care. That's when the TV ratings will go sky high. That's when people will tune in to cable news or whatever it is. If he goes to court, especially in Georgia, if there are cameras in the courtroom, because he's good television, it'll be the OJ of the present OJ Simpson trial, if that happens. That's a really good comparison. And we know how that ended up. Although I wouldn't say OJ, he did get away with, allegedly get away with murder. And I think his life did not get better after that. I mean, I think it never got better. I don't think Donald Trump's life got better after he became president. I never understood why people want to be president of the United States. If I was Donald Trump and I lived in a high rise with gold toilets and I had my own jet, why would I subject myself to all this scrutiny? I would just have a great life and live in the penthouse in the sky.

Kara Swisher: I think you're right. It's going to be a television show and he's good television. Now, speaking of television, the first Republican primary debate is happening next week in Milwaukee. One, do you think he'll show up for it? And two, if you were doing it, you've done debates, correct?

Don Lemon: I have. I've done a number of them. The last one was in Detroit with all the Democratic candidates.

Kara Swisher: So what would you ask if Trump is there and if he isn't there?

Don Lemon: What would I ask the other candidates?

Kara Swisher: Yes. What would you ask if he wasn't there?

Don Lemon: My question would be the same, even if he was there or wasn't there. I would ask them why they continue to support him, because many of them supported him for a long time. And now they're just starting to say the election wasn't stolen and Donald Trump isn't right. And they still hedge. So I would ask them that question: why they continue to support someone who has been indicted four times, who has been impeached, who tried to overthrow the government, who encouraged an insurrection, who says the nastiest things about not only them, but about their families. Why they continue to support. And if they continue to support someone like that, does that mean they are qualified to be the leader of the free world?

Kara Swisher: Okay, what would you ask him?

Don Lemon: What would I ask him? Why he thinks he's above the law. Why all of the very best people that he put into place turned out to be the very worst people and ended up either in jail or under indictment. I would ask him why he cares more about himself than the country. And I would ask him why he continues to co-opt the most vulnerable people in our society, and why he's a racist, why he is a sexist.

Kara Swisher: Would you use that term?

Don Lemon: Yes. I would. Because I asked him in 2016 if he was racist, and he said he wasn't. And I would ask him why he lied to me. Because, as it turns out, the evidence shows that he absolutely is. I think I was the first person on television to say that. I opened my show one night by saying the president of the United States is racist.

Kara Swisher: I remember. I remember that. That was a big...

Don Lemon: But where's the lie? Although, you know, CNN did benefit, as did other cable newsrooms, from covering him. He's holding a major news conference this Monday at Bedminster. Should the media cover it? They have to, right? He's the front runner.

Kara Swisher: The media should cover it. I don't think they have to do it live. I think that they can, you know, we don't cover when... I'm not in cable news anymore, but you don't have to cover every single event live. And there's a reason for the seven second delay, or you can get the information, look it over, and then disseminate it afterwards and add context to it, which I think is a responsible thing to do. But I don't like giving dictators or liars or insurrectionists or election deniers a platform, especially not live. And I think we learned our lesson in 2016 by running live Trump town halls when it was all lies. Those things penetrate.

Don Lemon: They do. But now he's the front runner, though. How do you avoid that?

Kara Swisher: I think about this all the time. How do you avoid that?

Don Lemon: Well, you can cover him. You can send the camera. Someone's like, "Don't platform him." I'm like, how do you not talk about a man who's at 54% or whatever in the number he's at?

Kara Swisher: Well, you can talk about him, but again, you don't have to put all of his lies on in real time. Twitter deplatformed him. Well, now not. Actually, they helped him. They tried to help him avoid. Jack Smith had to get a lot of Twitter data. Elon Musk did that, slowed it down. I think you have to talk about him. But we had the same issue for Kanye. Do you platform him when he's making anti-Semitic remarks? It's a little bit different when you're the front runner and the former leader of the free world. But I think you've got to be careful and you have to measure. You have to be very careful and very measured about how you cover him. You don't have to put on every tweet or every Truth Social post that he puts out. There's a reason for that. You have standards and practices and you take things through an editorial process.

Don Lemon: Right, right. I think that news organizations have to do that. They've got to be responsible. You know what I would ask Donald Trump, too? I would ask Donald Trump, I wonder what your mother... what do you think your mother would think of you? She seemed rather passive. And what you're doing and what you've done.

Kara Swisher: She'd love me, he'd answer.

Don Lemon: What do we do then? "She'd love me." Done. I see. I always anticipate what people will say. "She'd love you." You think she'd love the way you speak about what you might call your wife? You think she'd love what you were found guilty of for E. Jean Carroll? Would your mom love that? You'd have to be prepared. I'll tell you, that's the one. Because Elon Musk's mom is very supportive of all the things he says. And I don't know. I saw her recently, by the way.

Kara Swisher: Did you?

Don Lemon: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: Interesting. Well, she's supportive of him. She attacked me for being very normally critical about his COVID policies at his companies.

Don Lemon: Yeah, it's interesting because he says it's okay to criticize him. But, you know, my mom would probably be a little bit upset too. But my mom would also tell me the truth about myself.

Kara Swisher: That's what I do. I told my sons, I said, "You pull anything like this, it's over for you. It's over." My son took my daughter's mermaid this morning, one of my kids, and that would not stand in my home this morning.

Don Lemon: Did they see Barbie?

Kara Swisher: Are you kidding? No. Not the little ones. The older ones did. Two older ones did.

Don Lemon: Yeah. Did you see it?

Kara Swisher: You know what? I loved it. I loved it.

Don Lemon: Let me tell you, I'm in Provincetown right now and it is a Barbie summer here, as it is everywhere. The boys are wearing pink. Everything. Everyone's everybody. It's a Barbie and a Ken summer. And you can imagine what they're doing here with that. They're enjoying themselves in quite a lot of ways. But let me get to another few stories in that regard. You mentioned, there's two things I want to talk about. One is the trans issue. You know what I mean? Like here, let me tell you, we took a picture of my son with some... there's a lot of trans people here, a lot of drag queens, et cetera. A beautiful picture. And my wife didn't want me to post it because she's like, "I don't want us to get called groomers. I don't want it linked to a thing." And I thought, fuck them. Like, why can't I post? It's a wonderful picture. You can't see his face. It's a beautiful picture. And the fact that we're thinking of it with all... talk about what people are talking to you about trans issues.

Kara Swisher: Well, there are people who are very supportive of the LGBTQ community who have some concerns about what your wife said. And listen, I think people should be supportive of the LGBTQ community, but I don't expect every business to throw up a pride flag. And I don't know if it's their business that they have to, that they should. I would rather have their support and votes. I would rather have them as an ally rather than alienate them. And I think there are a lot of people who are supporters of the LGBTQ community and of the trans community who feel alienated by some of the things that are happening. Whether that's fair or not, that's the reality. I had this conversation on Sunday with family members of my fiancee who are, you know, one of them had a Bud Light. And I said, "Oh, you're still drinking Bud Light," like jokingly. He goes, "Yeah," and they talked about it. And they're like, "Look, I support the LGBTQ community, but there are real consequences for what happened. Look at what happened to the profits." Quarterly sales fell at Target for the first time in six years, due in part to the backlash. And Bud Light lost 10% of their profits.

Don Lemon: Yeah. Or Bud Wise. And I was a bunch.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, now they're moving back again. They're moving back again. It'll come back.

Don Lemon: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: They're going to fine tune their approach to Heritage Months in terms of displays. CEO Brian Cornell said on an earnings call that consumers see Target as their happy place, the company will do what it can to lean into that moving forward. I'm not sure why. I don't think you can pin that 100% on what happened.

Don Lemon: No, you can't. You can't. You can't.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, but in Bud Light's case, it led to $395 million in lost U.S. sales. It's kind of ridiculous.

Don Lemon: Why is this trans issue becoming such a big issue from your perspective?

Kara Swisher: I think it's... look, it's... how do I say this without getting even members of my community upset? The whole trans issue is sort of new to a lot of people, right? And so one day it won't be. And so people have a lot of questions about it. Just as a journalist asking questions for people who may not have all the knowledge, I would get yelled at and screamed at and accused of having some sort of internalized homophobia because I was asking questions for people who didn't know. And so I think that you have to, you know, I often felt like the African-American authority, right, being the only person of color in primetime on a cable. And I felt like I had to answer questions about being Black and American. And I had to ask questions coming out early in the media about being gay. And sometimes you just have to do that. And you have to understand that people don't know. And if you can offer them some information, you do it. And was it upsetting sometimes? Did I get sick of it sometimes? Yes, I did. But that's the only way that people learn. And so I think you have to meet people where they are. And it can be frustrating. And I think sometimes with the trans issue, people get really sensitive and they don't understand that this is a new and very difficult issue for people to understand. It just is. I wish it wasn't that way, but it just is. And you know what, Kara? Quite frankly, it's a tough issue for even members of my community. They don't get the pronouns. They don't get to the, well, are trans people gay? Are they straight? They're not necessarily this. Why are they part of the community? You've heard that.

Kara Swisher: Yes, a lot.

Don Lemon: And so, you know, can you... we would like heterosexual people to be able to understand everything all the time, but they don't. And sometimes they just have questions.

Kara Swisher: Sometimes my feeling, what I tend to do is say, "What do you care what people call themselves? Why is this an issue? Why are you all wrapped around an axle about this? Like, what do you care if people want to call themselves Phyllis or they?" I don't care. It's like, so it's hard for you. Big deal. Like, it's hard for you to pronounce names of certain people, too, right? And you're just going to have to, that kind of thing. I've had lots of discussions with people about this. And I tend to, I usually tend to be like, "Tell me how it affects you." And then they sort of get drawn into a better conversation than "you're a fucking idiot." I'm thinking you're a fucking idiot, but I'm not saying that in some ways. It's a big and important issue, the trans issue. And I am extremely supportive of the trans community. And as you know, right now, we deal with trans issues probably more than any other issue within the LGBTQ community. If you go to any event for the LGBTQ...

Don Lemon: Well, they're under siege with laws. They're under siege. And so I'm very supportive. I don't understand why people have such an issue with it. I understand why they're curious about it. I don't understand why they have such an issue with it because it's a very small part of our population. Candidates like Ron DeSantis and others gin it up. And now, of course, they're backing off of it. It's not working particularly.

Kara Swisher: Speaking of which, a lot of people are talking this week about the 2009 film, The Blind Side, which is supposedly based on a true story, but maybe not so much. As a reminder, this was a movie starring Sandra Bullock, who won an Oscar for a role, about Leanne Touhy, who brought homeless teenager Michael Oher into her family. Oher, now former NFL player, is alleging that the Touhy family never actually adopted him, instead put him into a conservatorship and exploited him for years. The Touhy family is denying those claims, is making a few new claims their own, even mentioning a shakedown for $15 million. Michael Lewis seems to be backing, who wrote the book The Blind Side, a very well-known journalist, saying that nobody made money from this movie. I think that was one of the things, whether they made money from the book and the movie. You interviewed Leanne back in 2013, ahead of...

Don Lemon: I did?

Kara Swisher: Yes, you did. Michael playing in the Super Bowl that year. Do you remember it or not?

Don Lemon: I don't. I'll be honest with you, I don't. I do this all the time. I know people say, "Are you interviewed such and such?" I was trying to remember if I interviewed someone recently. I think it was the two ladies that are involved in the Georgia case. And I said, "Did I interview her or did I read a transcript of her?" And I can't remember.

Kara Swisher: I do that too.

Don Lemon: Listen, I was on television at least two hours, five days a week. And I guess come in and out and I don't remember. I don't remember interviewing her, but I'm sure she's a very nice lady. I don't remember it, though. Do you have any thoughts on this? I only brought it up because you did interview her. I want to see what happens with the lawsuit, because people allege things all the time, and we have to see what happens. I'm not saying that that's this case, but that's what a journalist does. You wait for all the facts to come out. And if there is any money to be made or gotten from Michael Oher, I think Michael Oher should get that money.

Kara Swisher: Right.

Don Lemon: And I think he was an adult at the time, and he should have been allowed to make his own decisions as an 18-year-old person. Whether he got the money or lost it or saved it or whatever, I think it should have been his own decision. I think one of the more interesting parts of it is how he was portrayed in that movie is kind of thick and dumb and the white people teach him.

Kara Swisher: Well, it's a white savior complex.

Don Lemon: Yeah, exactly. But a lot. Now, when I saw it the other day, it's interesting when you rewatch things. It's on TV all the time, which is interesting. I was uncomfortable suddenly. You know what I mean? I was uncomfortable watching that movie from the beginning. I love Sandra Bullock. I thought she did a good job.

Kara Swisher: I don't think she did. She won an Oscar, didn't she?

Don Lemon: Yes, she did.

Kara Swisher: I don't think that she should give her Oscar back because she only did her job. She's not involved in that. There was a book, a screenplay, and she did her job in the movie. So I don't think... props to Sandra Bullock. I really like her. I think she's amazing. But the whole movie about the white savior thing was always uncomfortable for me. And I remember when I was writing my book and an editor, I talked about... I forget, there was something that happened. And there was this little white kid. And I went back and I read it in the editor and I said, "I don't want to do this because this makes this kid seem like a white savior." And they were like, "Oh my God, I didn't even think about that. Let's work on that." But I went back. You know what I did recently? I went back and watched the Rock Hudson documentary. I think it was on HBO or something. And it got me onto Dynasty. And I went back and I watched Dynasty from the very beginning.

Don Lemon: No.

Kara Swisher: And there was a whole character with Steven, the gay son. And I felt differently about the series than when I watched it originally.

Don Lemon: What did you feel? What's the difference?

Kara Swisher: The way that the character was portrayed was terrible. He went back and forth about being gay and straight. The dad, which is Blake Carrington, which is John Forsythe, killed the son's boyfriend and got away with it. And then through his entire life, he was embarrassed about his son being gay. I was like, "Jesus, what the fuck, man? This was terrible." And this was the 80s. I said, "No wonder people didn't come out then."

Don Lemon: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, it was... I literally, I remember watching and it was always sad gay people. I did not like John Forsythe's character. I actually related more to Joan Collins.

Kara Swisher: I'll give you a new one in your free time, Don, until you decide whether to hook up with Tucker Carlson or not. Is... I can't believe we're talking about Dynasty.

Don Lemon: I know, right?

Kara Swisher: Go watch Three's Company. Literally 90 rape jokes a second. Like, oh, and he had to, in order to live with two women, he had to be gay. But then when they're talking about getting women, it's very like "hubba hubba, give her a drink." You're like, what? When you watch it, you're sort of like, "Oh no."

Don Lemon: Kara, that's all I watch is old television. And it's so terrible.

Kara Swisher: Oh, Don watching old television. Go watch West Wing again. That'll work. That stands up.

Don Lemon: I love West Wing.

Kara Swisher: All right. My last question here, and then we're going to get to predictions because we're almost done, is who would you want to interview right now? You're a very good interviewer. You did tons. You don't even remember interviewing Leanne Touhy.

Don Lemon: I don't. I'm sorry.

Kara Swisher: It's okay. Who would you want to interview right now?

Don Lemon: Right now. Besides you?

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Don Lemon: Fani Willis.

Kara Swisher: Oh, okay.

Don Lemon: I would want Fani Willis, Alvin Bragg, and Jack Smith.

Kara Swisher: Oh.

Don Lemon: I would like to sit down with all three of them.

Kara Swisher: Wow. They would never do that. You know that, Don. You're aware.

Don Lemon: No, but I would like to. I would actually interview Donald Trump.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Don Lemon: I mean, but it would be the most uncomfortable interview that you have ever seen.

Kara Swisher: Oh, I bet. Oh my God.

Don Lemon: You know where I would do it? As I said, if I interviewed him, at Mar-a-Lago with velvet ropes. Let him bring his crowd in. Think about it. You would do Mar-a-Lago in a bathroom?

Kara Swisher: No, in the bathroom with a shower curtain. "Let's go see the bathroom, sir."

Don Lemon: I'd call him "sir" a lot. And I would have it in the middle of the lobby at Mar-a-Lago and there would be velvet ropes around us so that people could watch. I would do it with his crowd. I would not be afraid of his crowd. As a matter of fact, I would do it at a Trump rally. I wouldn't care.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. You might be a little more trouble than me in any case. All right, Don, one more quick break and you have to come back with a prediction.

Don Lemon: OK.

Kara Swisher: OK.

[Break]

Kara Swisher: All right. Okay, Don, let's hear a prediction.

Don Lemon: Okay, here's my prediction. I predict that even with all of the indictments, Donald Trump will be the nominee because they have no other choice. The only person who is really speaking truth right now is Chris Christie, and the Republican Party doesn't seem to want him. Will Hurd is a bright guy. I'm not sure he has the support of the party and the star power, sadly, to win a presidential election at this point. I think it will be tough for the Republican Party to win. I predict that Joe Biden will win the next election.

Kara Swisher: All right. Oh, that's a good one. Okay. Joe Biden will win again, once again. He wins by not saying anything? Like he just sits on the beach and he seems to go up and it falls.

Don Lemon: Yeah. That's another thing that people are talking about, but that's for another time.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. I know the age thing that we've discussed many times, but nonetheless, you've discussed it on the podcast. I think it's a big deal. I do think it's a big deal.

Don Lemon: Listen, I don't... it makes me uncomfortable talking about people's age. My mom is 80 and she's a very young 80. I think Joe Biden has the stuttering thing that we talked about on top of what happens. And his people have to stop letting him fall down, like putting obstacles in his way or what have you.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, well, he's pretty fit. I have to tell you, he's pretty fit.

Don Lemon: Dude, he is pretty fit. Listen, I think that Joe Biden is a very smart man. I think that Joe Biden is doing a great job. If you look at what he's doing in office, what he's accomplished, he's doing a really good job despite all the criticism that he gets. But what I'm saying, again, I'm being analytical. I'm not saying that I agree with this. People are talking about his age, and that is a concern for people I meet. Now, if you speak to someone like my mother, who is a diehard Joe Biden fan, she'll say, "I don't care. I like that he's older and he has wisdom, and that's important for a president." And I think she's right. But there are a lot of people who are concerned about his age. Joe Biden is concerned about it. He even said that he's concerned about it. So he knows that it's an issue.

Kara Swisher: But you still think he's going to win? Because now the Republicans are trying to focus on Kamala Harris, obviously, saying she'll be the real president, etc.

Don Lemon: Well, that is... people talk about that as well. I think people would like Kamala Harris to be a little bit stronger, to have... This is what they're saying to you.

Kara Swisher: Yes.

Don Lemon: To be a little bit stronger, to have more accomplishments under her belt, to be seen, to be forward-facing a little bit more. The concern is that Joe Biden will drop her, and then he won't get the Black support, and then blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know the whole thing.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Don Lemon: I don't lean into any of that, but I'm just telling you what people say. But you still think he's going to win, and Donald Trump will not.

Kara Swisher: I think he'll win. I think Donald Trump will not. But who knows? And then you and I could go to Mar-a-Lago and interview him after that.

Don Lemon: I would love to. I'd do it with you. We'll make a Donald Trump sandwich.

Kara Swisher: Let's try to do that. So what do you think? What's your prediction?

Don Lemon: My prediction? I'm going to go separately, not on Donald Trump, but on the writer's strike. I feel like it may settle by October 15th. I think there's some pain starting to be felt by the studios who are in a better position from a leverage point of view. I think there's a lot of pain from writers and actors. And I don't think calling them rich people is really working particularly well with the public. And I think they have to settle on some level and maybe push certain things down the road. I don't know. I just feel like maybe by October, they'll have to be settled. First will be the writers, then the actors. That's why I'm saying, I think the writers will settle soon and then the actors by then. Because they have to walk back. I interviewed Fran Drescher. A lot of stuff they've said that, not walk it back, but tone it down. Like that they're a bunch of monopoly men, which may or may not be true. And they have been taking a lot of the value. And so I do think it's going to settle before the new year. Now, I didn't think... I thought January 15th was.

Don Lemon: I need to get my Don Lemon reality show into production before they come back with the content.

Kara Swisher: Are you doing a reality? That would be so good. What would you call it?

Don Lemon: I'm joking. I don't know. I'm joking. Lemon Life. I have no idea. Lemonade. Lemon Life. When life gives you lemons, that's what it'd be. When life gives you lemons.

Kara Swisher: Oh my God, can I be in your reality show? Like we can move into a house in Provincetown and like, you know, lesbians around, some trans people will bring Ron DeSantis in after he loses the nomination.

Don Lemon: Would you watch that?

Kara Swisher: Oh, us with Ron DeSantis in a house in Provincetown? Are you kidding? It sells itself.

Don Lemon: It would be my family, my dogs, you, and what do we have? You said we have some friends. Ron DeSantis.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. In the attic. Like Flowers in the Attic. We keep them up there and let them out every night.

Don Lemon: No, he's like... is it It or Thing?

Kara Swisher: Thing, Thing, Thing. From the Addams Family.

Don Lemon: Oh, God, Don, that would be a lot of fun. Anyway, if you need any help figuring out your future, as you know, I understand these things rather well. So if you need any podcasting help, if you're going to do that, you should go on Joe Rogan. It's not so much with Tucker. I'm sorry. I think you should rule that one out.

Kara Swisher: Would you watch that? You and Tucker?

Don Lemon: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: I think he's a nasty piece of work. I think maybe back in the day, sure. I used to like Crossfire. Do you know how many people have proposed that Tucker and I have an event that we do it live streaming and it's like a prize fight?

Don Lemon: Here's how I feel about it. It'll diminish you and not him. I think just like Mark Zuckerberg in the cage fight, it diminishes Mark and not Elon. And I think it diminishes you and not him. That's what I think. I think he gets a lot of purchase out of it and you do, because his fans are really the lowest group of people sometimes. Some of them, not all of them, but I think it diminishes you. I don't know, maybe. Maybe it could be if he comes back to the way he used to be, but I think he's walked down that road rather far. Speaking of racist remarks, sexist remarks, et cetera, et cetera, attacking people. What do you think of Twitter?

Kara Swisher: Look, I think, well, or X, I think Twitter is, my gosh, it's such an enormous platform that could do so much good. And it's important, especially to people who don't live in democracies, right?

Don Lemon: Yep. Agree.

Kara Swisher: Around the world, certainly. Around the world. And if Elon Musk could, and Linda Yaccarino could just get it right. I'm not confident that's going to happen.

Don Lemon: You're not.

Kara Swisher: No, I don't. I'm sorry to say, I was one of the people, as you know, that thought it was a great thing. And then he's really turned it into a real shit show. So because I hear nothing anymore about Threads. Really interesting. I like Threads quite a bit. I'm not saying I like it or dislike it. I'm just saying when people have issues or if there's a big deal, people go to Twitter still. If there's an announcement, people go to Twitter.

Don Lemon: Yeah, yeah. It's a habit.

Kara Swisher: I don't know. It could be great, but I don't think under... I don't think you can make money, so it doesn't really matter. And if he wants to own it, like he owns a yacht or a baseball team, fine. A losing baseball team, that's fine. But he's rich and he makes a lot of money from other things. So sure. I guess. I don't know, Don, you love the Twitter. You haven't been on it lately.

Don Lemon: No, no, I'm not. I stopped using Twitter during the Trump era when he was president and people started attacking me.

Kara Swisher: But you read it.

Don Lemon: No, not really. I don't. I have someone who does social media for me and I'm going to go back to doing my own social media. I think now it's a little bit less toxic.

Kara Swisher: Try Threads. I think it's good.

Don Lemon: I'll go back eventually. But anyway, I hope I did okay because I'm kind of rusty.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. No, you're good. No, I was just telling someone you were a pro. Anyway, Don, that's the show. You can come on anytime. You can come on anytime. I got half "yay Don Lemon" on Twitter and half "that awful man" and on and on about you.

Don Lemon: Well, that's pretty good, don't you think? That was good. I felt like it was fine. I wrote back, "I'll go fuck yourself. I'll have who I want on this show." Thank you. That's really what I said. I'm like, "Get your own fucking show." I'm cursing a lot here now. Anyway.

Kara Swisher: All right. I got to get back to Carnival. Everyone's all dressed. There's a lot of cans outside.

Don Lemon: Is that what you're doing?

Kara Swisher: No, I'm not. We're going down to a family reunion, but Carnival is getting, for himself, is getting ready for Carnival. And the theme is toys. You know what? I would come on your show more often, but I feel objectified by Scott.

Don Lemon: No. Seriously, he has a weird crush on me. Don't you know that?

Kara Swisher: He does. I know that. I'm aware. I find it distasteful. He's a weird man crush, and I don't know. It's a little creepy.

Don Lemon: It is a little creepy because you're a handsome man.

Kara Swisher: He loves a handsome man. My mom thinks he's gay, but he's not, as you know.

Don Lemon: Isn't he gay?

Kara Swisher: He has a tremendously beautiful and wonderful smart wife. It's weird. He does have a weird Don Lemon fixation.

Don Lemon: He's gay-ish.

Kara Swisher: Gay-ish.

Don Lemon: Gay-ish, yeah.

Kara Swisher: So I will have you on when he's not around. How about that? All righty. Because I don't want you to feel objectified, Don Lemon, because I think you're in your prime.

Don Lemon: And so are you, my dear. So are you. They would be so mad. Why didn't you stop? You know what? He made a mistake. Thank you. Let's move on. Come on. And apologize for it. And look at this. I don't know if that's a whole other story. But come on.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. Yeah.

Don Lemon: I own what I do. Anyway, glass houses. That's what I say. Anyway, I love you.

Kara Swisher: Not everyone.

Don Lemon: I love you, too.

Kara Swisher: We'll be back on Tuesday with a break in Scott Free August. That's right. Scott can't quit us. Dot, I'm going to read us out. Today's show is produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Enderdot engineered this episode. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. And I'm so looking forward to the new reality show, When Life Gives You Lemons.

Don Lemon: What do you mean you're going to read us out? Well, I don't know what that means. We'll do it live. We'll do it live.

Kara Swisher: Thanks, Don Lovett.