Twitter’s New Anti-Harassment Policy, Chris Cuomo’s Suspension, and Stacey Abrams is Running for Governor

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Kara Swisher: Okay, let's look at Scott's major influences, TV, all right?

Scott Galloway: All right, yep. Love Boat. The first show I ever watched was *I Dream of Jeannie*, okay? "Jeannie, get in your ball." "Yes, Master." "I know, Master." And then we got Cable, and you know what I watched then?

Kara Swisher: What?

Scott Galloway: More *I Dream of Jeannie*. Then I evolved to *Three's Company*, then *Charlie's Angels*.

Kara Swisher: Oh, God.

Scott Galloway: I am the fucking Alan Alda of podcasting compared to my upbringing.

Kara Swisher: This is me, too. I watched all those shows, *Love Boat*, *Love American Style*. Remember them? Do you remember all those things?

Scott Galloway: That's right. It was a—

Kara Swisher: [Singing] Come and knock on my door. Come and knock on my door. We've been waiting for you.

Scott Galloway: Oh, my God. Dog Cousteau.

Kara Swisher: All right. In any case, thank you for that trip, everybody, to tell you how old we are. Today, we're going to unpack Twitter's confusing new policy. A star anchor is getting suspended indefinitely at CNN. We'll take a listener question about Tesla. And also, today, the day we're taping, is Dr. Jeffrey Swisher's birthday. So, I want you to say—

Scott Galloway: T-Swish. Dr. Swish. It is his birthday. He's a great brother. I posted lovely pictures of him when he came to Hong Kong when I had a stroke. He flew right over, took care of me. He's a great brother. Happy birthday, Jeff.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. He deserves it.

Scott Galloway: He likes being on Twitter. What if he was governor and needed your help? You would just ignore his calls?

Kara Swisher: No. Sorry, couldn't help it. Couldn't help it.

Scott Galloway: Okay. Couldn't help it.

Kara Swisher: You know what he wanted? Let me virtue signal about other people's families. Here's what he wanted. And let's see if you get the reference. He wanted a vagina tunnel for his birthday.

Scott Galloway: What?

Kara Swisher: Oh, from *Succession*.

Scott Galloway: Oh, God, that was good. Congratulations. You've just been born into the world of Kendall Roy. I'm sorry. Kendall's having a breakdown. Kendall is having a breakdown. Keep watching. Keep watching. I don't know what else to say. You little saucy mink. Are you teasing the dog?

Kara Swisher: I am teasing the dog. Are you teasing the dog?

Scott Galloway: Anyway, Jeff Swisher's birthday. Wish him a happy birthday on Twitter, everybody. You know, he's in my speed dial. If I end up in jail, I call Preet. And if I end up in the hospital, I'm calling D Swish.

Kara Swisher: You should. He's a very good person. He's a wonderful man. He's a wonderful man. Anyway, but first, the UK's competition watchdog has a mandate for Meta to sell off Giphy.

Scott Galloway: Ooh, Giphy's really important. That's a really cool company.

Kara Swisher: The Competition and Markets Authority said that Meta's acquisition of Giphy would reduce competition between social media platforms. Obviously, these are GIFs. Meta says it's considering an appeal in the next four weeks. What does Meta need Giphy for?

Scott Galloway: Why not? Of course, Twitter's got its version of things where you can pick GIFs or whatever you call them. So what do you think?

Kara Swisher: Well, in other news, South Africa wants me to be general consul of Australia. What difference does it make with the UK? I don't understand how a foreign country regulates the breakup of an entity that's domain somewhere else. If they don't do this, does this mean they can inhibit their business? I don't know what this means. Low-hanging fruit, I guess. But, you know, they should be focused on the big things, meaning this is just little stuff. I mean, there should be – there is an overall look at all there. In the European Union, there's one going on. There's a bill that's moving slowly to completion that Marguerite Vestager is pushing, is sort of hip-checking into existence, which would look at that. But looking at acquisitions over time is what – a real smart group of lawmakers need to do that, not take – shoot off Giphy or whatever. It's probably going to be around Instagram or WhatsApp or something significant. So whatever, UK.

Scott Galloway: UK has been tough on Facebook, though. You know that. Have at it. Have at it. Whatever. They've been tough on Facebook comparatively.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, it's done a lot of good, too. It's done a lot of good. Let's have the new CEO of Instagram go testify. Maybe like Jack Dorsey leaving Twitter, it will happen someday for you, Scott. And your Twitter space is saying, what a bunch of sycophants you invited on. Not only roommates, but sycophants. Talking about, well, maybe Jack decided to go do crypto. He was fucking fired.

Scott Galloway: All right. Okay. Let me get this. You know, I got into a beef on Twitter about you saying that with someone. I forget who it was. Okay, hold on. But he was calling you. He said, I shouldn't be affiliated with you.

Kara Swisher: That's a shocker.

Scott Galloway: I mean, first off, that is good judgment, but I'm right on Jack Dorsey.

Kara Swisher: I know, but he was all up in my grill about your thoughts on Jack Dorsey. In any case, I think he had references of opinions. What, a guy who was treating a company like a 70s CEO treated a golf course swing by on Wednesday and on Sundays? Life is complex. Some of the things he's done are good, some of them bad. This is not that complex.

Scott Galloway: Hold on a second. Hold on. I have a good friend at Twitter who's a senior executive there.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, okay.

Scott Galloway: Very talented guy. A ton of options. Okay. A ton of options professionally. Could have gone to work for Google, Snap, the New York Times, Pinterest. And over the last five years, he has not increased his wealth, nor has anyone of the 5,000 employees at Twitter. What's the glutton for stock punishment? Why did he stay? You are a fiduciary for other people's economic well-being, not for your own raging narcissism using a company as your plaything. And I can't get over the number of apologists for this bullshit behavior. Anyways, sorry, go ahead.

Kara Swisher: It's not a plaything.

Scott Galloway: Oh, my goodness. It's more complex.

Kara Swisher: It was a total plaything for Jack. A plaything is not your thing, is it? It isn't. It was not a plaything.

Scott Galloway: A total plaything.

Kara Swisher: No, it's not. 10% of his time.

Scott Galloway: No, I get that part. There he lost me. But what he made is really – nobody else made that. He invented it. Good for him.

Kara Swisher: All right. Well, it's pretty good. It's pretty good. He got a billion dollars for it. Does that mean that 20 or 15 – okay, just a quick stat, quick fun stat. All right. In 2013 – I know business is business. Hold on. In 2013, when Twitter went public, on the day of the IPO, it closed at $45.

Scott Galloway: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: Do you know what it is today? $42.

Scott Galloway: I know. I wrote this in my column. Name a tech company that is trading below its IPO price. I got it. I got it.

Kara Swisher: Oh, but he's got beard oils, and he's a thoughtful guy that speaks in hushed tones. He's moved on to Block. That's just weird. Who do you work for?

Scott Galloway: Block.

Kara Swisher: I've worked for Block. H&R. Remember the ads? Speaking of old people, remember the ads? H&R Block?

Scott Galloway: Shh. You know, I—

Kara Swisher: That was E.F. Hutton.

Scott Galloway: Oh, you're right.

Kara Swisher: Oh, my God. That was E.F. Hutton. You're so old, you're losing it. Listen to me. You're losing your cultural references. Listen to me. Here's someone you're going to have a hard time insulting. Stacey Abrams says she's running for governor of Georgia.

Scott Galloway: Oh, gangster.

Kara Swisher: Here's an announcement. "That's the job of governor, to fight for one Georgia, our Georgia. And now it's time to get the job done." In her last run, Abrams lost to Governor Brian Kemp by just 1.4 points. Kemp will likely run again, but without the support of Donald Trump. Donald Trump is after him trying to get Herschel. Who is it? Herschel Walker? I don't know. Whatever. No, he's trying to get him to run for senator. But Donald Trump is after Kemp, which is interesting. Georgia, under Kemp, implemented a strict new voting law since the last time she ran. Could make it harder for people to vote. She's been running a group that tries to fight that and was quite effectively during the Senate races, which she is lauded for creating, getting Ralph Warnock, for example, in office. Trump obviously is still mad at Kemp for not delivering Georgia, and he half-joked about supporting Abrams as revenge. I think he likes Stacey Abrams. Is he crazy enough to do it? I don't know. Tell me what you think.

Scott Galloway: I really like Stacey Abrams. I love Stacey Abrams. I think she's the real deal, as they say. There are so many people. I mean, what's the definition of being a citizen or the definition of character? It's doing the right thing when no one's looking or helping people who will never even know you helped them. Stacey Abrams is one of those people.

Kara Swisher: Why? Why?

Scott Galloway: Because without her, without her, the Republicans would control the Senate. And none of this shit, whether it was child tax credit, any voter, any attempt to push back on these mendacious voter laws masquerading as – that shouldn't masquerade as anything other than poorly veiled racism. We owe that to Stacey Abrams who did a – put on a master class around voter turnout in Georgia where we flipped not one, but I believe we flipped both. Or did we hold on to one? Anyway, Stacey Abrams, people – Stacey Abrams is someone regardless of whether or not she wins here should go down as someone who has added a great deal of value to the Commonwealth. I think she might win. I think she's going to be president. I hope so. That's my feeling. I will support her.

Kara Swisher: Will you support her?

Scott Galloway: I will absolutely support her. I have interviewed her many times, and I have to say I interviewed her way before she got famous. I was so wildly impressed, and I've interviewed a lot of people. This was when she was just head of the Georgia Senate. I had never been more wildly impressed by someone. And it wasn't like, you know how someone just convinces you and they're surfacy? This woman has got layers, like layer after layer after layer of intelligence that's just beyond. And she's also odd and weird with her Star Trek thing and her writing of romance. I just find her fascinating. She is who she is, and I like that about her. I think she's – but very strategic, and she has a really smart team around her. And I think, you know, I think what she has to avoid is looking like an elite. She has a very interesting needle to thread.

Kara Swisher: Also in election news, by the way, speaking of which someone you probably can say bad things about, Dr. Oz is running for Senate in Pennsylvania, even though he lives in New Jersey. Why can't I say bad things about him?

Scott Galloway: You can. I'm just kidding. I'm saying you can't find a good thing to say about him. He is a –

Kara Swisher: So you want to hear my view? A quack.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, go ahead. Want to hear my view? I 100% am going to support Mehmet Oz. I'm going to give money to the campaign, and I will put my name on it despite the immense amount of shit I'll get, including from your brother.

Kara Swisher: Oh, no.

Scott Galloway: I have known Mehmet Oz and his family for over 25 years.

Kara Swisher: Oh, no.

Scott Galloway: He's a good man. He's a great husband. He's a great father. And not only that, we need more centrists on both sides. I'm a huge fan of Mehmet Oz. Count me as a supporter.

Kara Swisher: I don't know. This is he's lean, he's Trump leaning. He's no, no. I we're gonna really part ways on this one. He has so much snake oil and his stuff around COVID was very problematic. And I'm not like speaking like this, it was. I don't know what happened to him. I have to say, I don't know what happened to him. And I don't think, by the way, he doesn't live in Pennsylvania. As someone who was born in Pennsylvania, my family either does. Senator Clinton? I mean, well, you know what, I don't like, I don't love any of it. I don't love any of that. I don't love any. It's opportunistic. And his, like, bear hug of Trump is gross. Like, he's not a Trump supporter.

Scott Galloway: What choice do they have, Kara? They do have a choice. They do. What Republican has not bear hugged Trump?

Kara Swisher: They do.

Scott Galloway: It has not been a bear hug. It's been a mild hug. It really, he was not the Trump endorsed candidate. First, let's throw that out there. Two, and let me be clear, on the junk science stuff and the attempt to grab attention because he was running a show every day, he fucked up. And I think he knows that and he's paid a price for it. And if we're going to continue to look at every frame of everyone's life and cancel them based on one stupid decision, this is a guy. I'm not canceling him.

Kara Swisher: I think he's a consistent oaf.

Scott Galloway: We need more doctors. We need more health care professionals. We need more centrists and moderates on both sides of the aisle. We need people with character.

Kara Swisher: Agreed.

Scott Galloway: To demonstrate professional excellence.

Kara Swisher: Agreed. I wish someone. He's fucked up. He's paid a huge price. That doesn't mean he shouldn't serve in public.

Scott Galloway: You know who I'm going to give money to? If you're giving money even though you're richer than me, I'm going for John Fetterman. I'm going for John Fetterman. That's why I'm giving money. I love John. I did a great interview with him. I think he's also the real deal.

Kara Swisher: Say more. I don't know much about him.

Scott Galloway: He is the lieutenant governor of Pennsylvania, and he's got that – speaking of cool beers, he's got one. He's just great. He's a Bernie Sanders supporter. He's more to the left, but he's not. He's really – he's fantastic, interesting character, longtime Pennsylvanian. Really, the working class are really attracted to him. He's got a really interesting family. He's also a family man. Just a fascinating guy and very much trying to help the town he lives in, in Pennsylvania again. I think you would like—take a gander at John Fetterman. Just do that. The other guy's running is the centrist. I'm on Team Oz. Bring it on, everybody. I'm on Team Oz.

Kara Swisher: In any case, with Dr. Oz, TV stations in Cleveland, New York, and Philadelphia have announced they'll pull his show to comply with FCC's equal time rule. You know what? The right-wing person is going to get the nod, I suspect. Next, David Marcus is leaving Meta.

Scott Galloway: I like David Marcus. He was running their cryptocurrency efforts, DM and Libra. And he previously oversaw Messenger. He's been in payments for a long time. I like David, and I think he was quietly agonized. That would be my guess about him. He was over to the side, not dealing with a lot of the other stuff, and oversaw some really interesting stuff. Although, you know, didn't get as much attention. But I suspect it's the beginning of more people leaving.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, you know him, I don't. But he put out this press statement. And I'm like, okay, so you were there for six years, worked on something, and it never launched. That's got to be frustrating.

Scott Galloway: Wasn't the focus, yeah. I like David. He's a very canny person. And I suspect he was like one of those people you talk about, which is, where do you work? Where do you work? You know, in Silicon Valley. He's an entrepreneur. He'll do just fine. Here's, I think, the cloud. I mean, let's be honest. Anyone who's still at Facebook has made rationalizations for damaging the commonwealth and massively increasing teen depression. They have kind of – I don't want to say sold their soul, but just come to an agreement, and I empathize with this, that I need to make a living and I think – or maybe I think I can change this organization for the better. Fine. But what is probably really going to be damaging to them is that I think a lot of people are coming to the conclusion that after its incredible stock run-up, that the stock just might come under pressure over the next 6 to 12 months. And I think probably a lot of executives who look at their opportunities say, well, I'm going to go find the next gig where I can run a stock from $10 to $300 as I did here. Yeah, David's an entrepreneur. It'll be interesting.

Kara Swisher: I mean, what do you say? Like, for example, people at the Wall Street Journal and Rupert Murdoch, like they do great work at the Wall Street Journal. Are they facilitating that? Are they – you know what I mean? It's one of these things, unfortunately. Awful people own laudable things. We left because of that, but me and Walt. But it still is – I don't begrudge anyone who –

Scott Galloway: That's some other of all false analogies of Wall Street Journal.

Kara Swisher: No, no, no, no. No, but it was something – when you say when people are at a company and a part that has nothing to do with the other part. What he was doing had nothing to do with it.

Scott Galloway: We're very disputatious today. I see this is happening because you love Dr. Oz. I'm riled up. I can't believe this. I can't believe this. Maybe I will cancel you. Anyway, David Marcus will see great things from him, I suspect.

Kara Swisher: CEOs and insiders have sold $69 billion of their stocks since January, making 2021 a record-breaking year. Four super sellers are behind more than 35% of all sales. Guess who?

Scott Galloway: But these are regular sales, though.

Kara Swisher: Musk, Bezos, Zuckerberg, and the Waltons. They've got all this cash. A must-sale is not regular.

Scott Galloway: Yes. Remember on stage when he told you he would be the first in and last out?

Kara Swisher: No, we're not arguing about this.

Scott Galloway: He was accurate of what he was saying. He was accurate. He had to sell.

Kara Swisher: In any case, he didn't have to do his dumb poll. That is correct. So what do you think about all this selling?

Scott Galloway: It's just take your money. Look, almost every metric that comes out, almost every piece of financial data, whether it's valuations, price earnings multiples, or the amount of money being sold, or the percentage of companies that are unprofitable going public. Like we're setting new records or the chart looks dramatically like where we were in 99 in 2007. And here's the thing. CEOs are generally very bright people who understand the company really well. There are planned sales where you're just diversifying and getting liquidity. But there are also sales, though, where insiders say the stock's trading at a healthy valuation. And it's just good financial planning right now. I tell a lot of management teams that I'm on the board of, even if we're doing a private raise, take some money off the table because this might not be the top, but it is a very good time to sell. And usually it's not a good forward-looking indicator of market performance when insiders are selling. And that's one thing they have to disclose. But it's just striking how reminiscent all of this is of 99 and 2007.

Kara Swisher: Oh, no. Oh, well. Okay. Well, hold on to your hat. But when guys and gals like us say that watch out, that usually means the market's going to go up another 40%.

Scott Galloway: Yes, that's true. The key question is, is this – we know 2000 is coming. The question is, is it 1997 or 1999, right?

Kara Swisher: Anyways, we'll see. Do you know what Kara Swisher does? She doesn't look at it at all for years, for decades, just lets it sit there.

Scott Galloway: That's smart. That's a good investment strategy.

Kara Swisher: And hopefully it'll time it right when I've decided to retire, which is never at this point. So it doesn't really matter. I just have to keep earning. So time for our first big story. Twitter unveiled a new anti-harassment policy this week that left users very confused.

Scott Galloway: I was quite confused.

Kara Swisher: In a vague statement, Twitter said it would, quote, "not allow the sharing of private media, such as images or videos of private individuals without their consent," unquote. The announcement immediately raised questions about how the social network could handle images of everything from concerts to police brutality. A Twitter spokesman clarified a few points: consent is assumed until someone reports their own image being used maliciously. Public figures will still be fair game and likely include police officers. Very confusing. And now I can't be posting all those embarrassing pictures of Scott Galloway that I have.

Scott Galloway: Hello. It's possible. This is like, I just, it's, I see what the goal is, but how unenforceable can you make something? I literally read this statement and I thought, this feels as if it was written by someone who was working at the firm 10% of their time. I just couldn't. I just couldn't. Do you get this shit? I get the idea of safety as people putting malicious pictures up. They should do it on a case-by-case basis. They're a media company. They should have an editorial board to make decisions. All I did when I read this policy, it seems to me this statement is like PR hell where they got a bunch of lawyers and a bunch of their comms people in a room and said, okay, here's something that sort of makes sense. And now let's all shape it into something that makes no sense. I just couldn't understand what they were trying to get to here. I did not get it.

Kara Swisher: I think it's quite confusing. And it said it will leave images up if it, quote, "adds value to the public discourse being shared in public interest or relevant community," but it didn't define any of those terms. It's typical of these people. We don't know what the rules are. We don't. It's like, can you stop at this stop sign or not this stop? It's a stop sign, but it's not a stop sign, Kara, kind of thing, which I blow through them all. But how will Twitter balance social concerns here? And why are they deciding? It just wades them into, I don't know. They should just like, if people complain about maliciousness, they should have an investigative editorial team that deals with it and makes calls as best as they can. This seems very confusing. So I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what to say.

Scott Galloway: They have to deal with safety. Safety is important. But I, and again, you don't want to begrudge people feeling unsafe on that platform. I've been one of the big pushers about that issue. But it's really weird. It was not well done. Not well done.

Kara Swisher: Right after Jack was leaving, there might be some weird timing here. You know what my favorite policy was? The New York Times, when social media was burgeoning and they were trying to figure out a policy for their journalists in terms of the use of social media. They still don't have – nobody has a good one.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, but I thought the policy was great. The policy was use your common sense.

Kara Swisher: Oh, yes. I love that. But then when it got into practice, very confusing. Very confusing.

Scott Galloway: It is. It's very confusing once you give people a little bit of like, hey, get out there and show yourself. It creates a problem. It's a pushback. Washington Post had a real problem around tweets and this and that. So it's an ongoing problem, but this policy does not help the situation.

Kara Swisher: All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about the trouble at CNN and take a listener mail question.

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Kara Swisher: Scott, we're back with our second big story. CNN has suspended anchor Chris Cuomo indefinitely, whatever that means. Newly released documents show the close level of coordination between Chris Cuomo and the team defending his brother, then-governor Andrew Cuomo, from accusations of sexual harassment. Chris Cuomo used his resources as journalist to gather information on Andrew's accusers. The younger Cuomo discussed his suspension on his radio show. Let's play a clip.

Chris Cuomo (Audio Clip): It's embarrassing. But I understand it. And I understand why some people feel the way they do about what I did. I've apologized in the past. I mean, it's the last thing I ever wanted to do was compromise any of my colleagues and do anything but help. I know they have a process that they think is important. I respect that process. So I'm not going to talk about this anymore than that.

Kara Swisher: Well, I'm so sorry he's embarrassed and it hurts him. But he misbehaved. The documents came from apparently from these documents, but there's going to be an internal investigation, not an outside one. They're doing it internally at CNN. It came from the attorney general's investigation, and it seems like he did a little more than he told his bosses that he did, which is a problem. I think apparently Jeff Zucker's furious. We should mention that Scott has a show on CNN Plus launching next year, but is not – I don't think you were involved with it. We've been on Anderson Cooper's show. Anderson Cooper's show is going to be made longer, and they'll find someone to go in that slot, maybe Jake Tapper, who in an interview with me complained about Chris Cuomo's behavior months ago. He said it was a real – he created a real problem for people there. So, Scott, what do you think? I mean, I know he's defending his brother, but eesh, kabish. I don't know.

Scott Galloway: Well, I mean, there's literally absolutely no upside to me saying anything about this, only downside. But like that's going to stop me.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I don't think it should. I'd love to know what you think.

Scott Galloway: Well, look, I don't – I'm not that close to the situation. And as someone who's not a journalist, I don't – I can't – I don't think I can speak thoughtfully to what is the right decorum in terms of journalists and conflicts.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I know enough to know that this is not kosher.

Scott Galloway: What I would say is that I totally – I don't know Chris Cuomo. I like him and I like his show. What I would say is that when it comes to family, I'm not going to say he did the right thing. I empathize with what he did. I also think that CNN is doing the right thing. I think it's possible that occasionally you have just a bad situation that involves bad decisions. I think Chris Cuomo has handled this well. I think he's acknowledged the problem and is trying to take responsibility. In a certain way, I understand why he did it. When your sibling calls and needs help, I think you correctly maybe lose some judgment filter here. It's family. And I think people say, well, it's the governor or it's the guy who did this. It's your brother calling you. Anyway, I don't – but I don't – you should take this before I get canceled. I get my show canceled again before it airs.

Kara Swisher: I think he should be fired. I think this is ridiculous. He seemed to have sort of downplayed it and then these documents come out and he embarrassed Jeff Zucker who had been his big supporter. I know he's the most popular thing on that channel, but nonetheless –

Scott Galloway: Is that right? It's his show.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I think so. I believe so. He's more popular than AC. I believe so. But he's one of the top ones. In any case, look, this is just – if he was – like someone pointed out on Twitter, if he was an intern, he'd be gone. Like anyone else, he'd be gone. Like gone, gone, gone. And to underplay it like this to his bosses and underplay it to the public, he was helping. This is like not a little helping. It's not like – he could have done anything in those emails to say, you know, this is really problematic for me. I'm not going to talk, but good luck. And I support you as a brother. He could have done that. But let me check that. Let me find out when the story is coming in. Let me do this. And then he put it in emails, which you're like, are you? You're also dumb, right? So I just feel like it is fair to expect a journalist to set that aside with the family. You can support someone emotionally. It's sort of like Kavanaugh sitting behind his friend. Sorry, Joel Kaplan sitting behind Kavanaugh at the hearings. He shouldn't have done it. I know he's his friend. He can pat him in the back room and be there for him. But he is also a Facebook executive, and it looked terrible. So, I mean, again, I get it, but I don't get it. This guy has – this guy – CNN has caught up in all kinds of scandals around several of their anchors. So it seems like this guy should go. And I know internally at CNN they're a whore of the other journalists. They put the other journalists in a terrible position. They become a target for the right, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And it's just, you know, even though they point out at Fox, Sean Hannity can campaign at Trump rallies and nothing happens to him. Well, guess what?

Kara Swisher: Those are Fox News' rules. So whatever. And I don't think it's like, as Tucker Carlson, let me just finish. Tucker Carlson was saying, you know, he's being taken out by the woke mob. Bullshit. Look, Tucker Carlson wouldn't know an ethic if it fell on top of his blockhead. But this is so clear that anyone below this guy would have been fired in a New York minute and has been.

Scott Galloway: So what I will say is, and this is my limited experience so far with CNN, is they take – so I've worked with a lot of networks, and CNN standards are very high.

Kara Swisher: Agreed.

Scott Galloway: Whenever I go on a show, whenever I cite data, they immediately ask me and my team for references, and they fact-check all the data. When I've gone on other networks, it might be just a resource issue.

Kara Swisher: No, CNN has a famous checking system. Amanda, my wife, worked there. And they had this system for stories that she did. She was an editor that was really impressive. Their fact-checking, their legal. It's an insult to the people who do that there, I think, that he would try to be this oily and try to squeeze out of this. I get it. He's a good brother, but oof, oof. Wrong side of this thing completely.

Scott Galloway: And I think— I find that the media is obsessed with each other. I don't want to say this isn't a big story, but the media just obsesses over each other. Does America really care? No, but I think it's just—look, we shouldn't go, "Oh, Fox is messy, therefore we can be." Like, no.

Kara Swisher: Agreed. No. I don't care what they do.

Scott Galloway: Agreed. It's just—there is an issue, though. I do get it. I think it's great that we on the left and including media networks that want to be fair and balanced, and I actually think the Wall Street Journal does a pretty good job also of trying to be balanced and have pretty good standards but distinct of their ownership. But it just strikes me that – I don't know. There's something about – it's like the crazies on the far right and the journalists are like, "We've given up on them. But the people in the middle who are moderates, we can save them. Let's throw them into the purity fire."

Kara Swisher: No, it's not purity. Scott, come on. This is – he lied. He lied to his bosses. No, it's not purity. There's a thing called journalistic ethics that we try to hew to. And we are not always successful. But boy, is this a violation. Like it's an enormous violation of that.

Scott Galloway: Well, OK. Let me go back to my initial statement. I empathize with him. And I think CNN is right. To your point, they have standards. And they're clear about their standards. And he clearly, it feels like, crossed the line.

Kara Swisher: Well, they have to do an investigation and that's what they should do. I wish it was independent, but fine.

Scott Galloway: But, you know, I remember, you know what I remember on the last point on this is when the Washington Post had that mess around Janet Cooke. I was in college at the time.

Kara Swisher: What a screw up that was, right? That was a terrible screw up. This fake story, et cetera. This is like journalistic history that I did not take this class. And I'm sorry, what happened?

Scott Galloway: She wrote a story about a kid that was given crack by his mother's boyfriend. It was all made up. The whole thing was made up. And it was a gripping story. Boy, I read the whole thing when I was in college. And they ended up doing this investigation. And it ended up it was all bullshit, right? It was all bullshit. They drove her around. She couldn't find the place. It was fiction. And I have to say, it was gripping. But they did an investigation. If you ever want to read something amazing, they did this long investigation of it. And I thought that they didn't have an outside person either. But boy, was it a good read. And I read it in journalism ethics class, essentially. And so it's worth reading. It's incredibly long what happened. And they really showed what happened. And I thought it was, look, the press doesn't always get it right, but it's not a purity test. It's like doctors. If you keep leaving instruments in people, you need to be looked at. Like, it's not, "Oh, don't be so pure about people leaving instruments in people."

Kara Swisher: I'm sorry, leaving instruments in people?

Scott Galloway: Well, I'm saying you're doing this purity testing. It's like, let's attack, like, because it's not purity.

Kara Swisher: Leaving instruments in people?

Scott Galloway: Well, you know, doctors.

Kara Swisher: Are you getting enough sleep?

Scott Galloway: I'm getting enough sleep. Leaving instruments in people?

Kara Swisher: No, you know what I'm saying. Like, we expect. Scalpel. Oh, it's in his torso.

Scott Galloway: That happens a lot more than you think, in case Dr. Swisher will tell you.

Kara Swisher: But I'm saying everyone should have standards for their work. And in this case, it looks like he violated them. And if so, maybe you can run that show. You and Anderson could do a little handoff. It'll be great.

Scott Galloway: It was a little bit of win-win. I don't know if you saw last night, but AC 360 went two hours. Hello, AC.

Kara Swisher: I know. It's just for Scott. And by the way, you could be the host. You could be the host. Because no one expects purity from you.

Scott Galloway: I can almost guarantee that will never happen, Kara.

Kara Swisher: That would be so cool.

Scott Galloway: That would be. Because I know what you're getting. I am not meant for live TV.

Kara Swisher: I think it would be. I am not meant for live TV. A, I have a face for podcasting.

Scott Galloway: Yes. By the way, I have met Chris Cuomo. He is very handsome.

Kara Swisher: He's very handsome. That counts for a lot.

Scott Galloway: Okay.

Kara Swisher: He is very handsome. We're going to move on. And with a listener question, we're not agreeing today.

Scott Galloway: Good looking guy. This is a non-agreement day, which is good. Totally jacked.

Kara Swisher: Listen to me. Let's pivot to a listener question. This one came via email. You've got mail. "Is Elon Musk becoming a liability for Tesla? I have several friends who would like to buy a solid electric car, but are not willing to give a dollar to Musk and his bro culture. Musk has tweeted vulgar statements about U.S. elected officials, and he has in his stance attacked U.S. auto regulators. He is also at a point that he is over-promising and under-delivering. Cybertruck, Tesla Semi, full self-drive. If I were an investor, I would be seriously worried about an unfiltered mess in Musk and what is happening with President Xi and the CCP. Now that the production of Tesla cars is at a mature stage, is he the future of the company?" Oh, I'm letting you take this one. You have a car, so you tell me, Scott. Tell this person.

Scott Galloway: So we have a Model X Falcon, and it's interesting to spend $120,000 on a product, and then the CEO starts calling you names on Twitter. I've never had that happen before.

Kara Swisher: But you love it, right? You love it.

Scott Galloway: You know what? Initially, I thought, all right, my initial response was going to be zero fucks given, but I do actually kind of enjoy it.

Kara Swisher: You always said, as long as people are punching down, that's okay.

Scott Galloway: Anyways, but look, I do a prediction stack every year and I just can't help it. One of my predictions this year, I think in 2022, and let's bring on the flying monkeys in their Tesla bots. Here you go. If Tesla goes down 50%, it will still be overvalued. And what's so interesting is the lesson here. Total addressable market is a huge component of valuation. What is the TAM of a company's opportunity in a marketplace for growth? And essentially Rivian, Lucid, and Tesla, they're kind of the assumption if you were to call them automobile companies. If their TAM was the auto market, you would say that these three companies are going to produce every EV vehicle and EVs are going to go from 1% or 2% to 80% in the next 20 years. So instead, they're very smart. They have this massively impressive sleight of hand where they say, "No, our TAM isn't the automobile market, much less the EV market. It's climate change. We're in the business of climate change." And the valuations these companies have managed to – I'm a believer in markets. And one of the things about markets and fundamentals is eventually they reattach to something called fundamentals. And when these companies begin to reattach to fundamentals, you're going to see just an unbelievable recalibration and step down. I said that at $100 a share. I want to acknowledge it's now at $1,100 a share. I couldn't have been more wrong.

Kara Swisher: By the way, something really funny. I just put a deposit on a Rivian.

Scott Galloway: You did?

Kara Swisher: I think more competition is coming in.

Scott Galloway: The amount of money here. You put a deposit on a Rivian. Wow. Why? And it was hilarious. This really funny Twitter handler called VC Braggs put out my tweet and said – I put out a screenshot of my confirmation on it. And they put out a thing that said, "Rest in peace, Rivian," and a picture of me ordering a Rivian. But look, the marketplace, a $1.1 trillion market cap company that just seems so outsized here is attracting all sorts of sharks, ranging from Tim Cook to Jeff Bezos. And you got to think at some point that puts pressure, margin pressure on the company. So to their credit, what Tesla has accomplished is incredible. Tesla is now this year probably going to outsell Mercedes, which is just staggering. But is it worth five or ten times what Mercedes is worth? I don't know.

Kara Swisher: You know, I think you're high on your Jack Dorsey situation. I think you're going to – JD, I'm high on JD. JD, you won on that one.

Scott Galloway: And Apple acquires Peloton.

Kara Swisher: Yes, I know. Apple acquires Peloton. It's going to happen more than this is. So as to his – let me just answer the question of the listener. As to his vulgar statements and his stands, I don't know what to say. This is him. He's not changed. So if you don't like that, you can choose not to buy things of companies you don't like. It's a great car. He's going to over-promise and under-deliver? I don't think so. I think he's delivered a lot more than most people. Of course, he's like a – I wouldn't call him P.T. Barnum because that's not quite right. But it's good to think big. And so Cybertruck, Tesla Semi, good for him. I don't care.

Scott Galloway: I agree. It's fine just to be like, lots of people have been like that. He's not cheating anybody.

Kara Swisher: Good for business. He's not cheating.

Scott Galloway: Good for business. Good for the planet. A visionary. Stock wildly overvalued. We can hold all of those thoughts in our head at the same time. Look, they are what they are. And it's a long time.

Kara Swisher: Oh, a 50-year-old man with seven kids acting like an eight-year-old?

Scott Galloway: That's been a good business strategy because it creates a lot of awareness for his products.

Kara Swisher: That's what he's like. It's not a strategy. He's like that. He is 100% like that.

Scott Galloway: It's been an amazing strategy. It has. But, I mean, I agree it's authentic. But, I mean, he is literally in the public discourse, as evidenced by this conversation every day which creates tremendous awareness. I mean, can you name the CEO of Ford?

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Scott Galloway: Do you know? It just changed.

Kara Swisher: Mary Barra at GM, right? General Motors. Mary Barra, right.

Scott Galloway: Look, the strategy, and unfortunately, I just don't think it serves as a good role model for upcoming entrepreneurs. It's like, just be famous. It's sort of the Kim Kardashian. Although, look, she's got some accomplishments you might not like. Or same thing with Elon.

Kara Swisher: Kim? No, I think the Kardashians are underrated, actually. Yeah, I have all along thought that. I think they're smarter than people think. And we're going to get pushback on that, but I don't care. So one of the things he does, like he recently told employees at SpaceX that the company faces bankruptcy due to production delays. He did this at Tesla. Did you get that? What's going on there?

Scott Galloway: He does that. He gets all worked up. He did that. Remember a couple of years ago when he was exhausted and then he cried at the New York Times and was talking about the companies. I think he did an interview with me kind of right after when he got some sleep where he's like, "I just get all up in people's grill." That's a tactic of his for sure. And I think it's genuine again, but he sleeps on the floor of the production facility, et cetera. He's an intense dude, people. So if you don't like his jam, don't buy his car. I don't know. But just going back to the business side of this, I look at Tesla and I think there's all sorts of well-capitalized, great companies coming for that pie that he has grown dramatically.

Kara Swisher: Exactly.

Scott Galloway: Whereas, I think SpaceX is highly differentiated. And if you look at satellites, the number of satellites that we're going to need to launch, it's going to go from like 3,000 to 50,000 over the next 10 years. And what Tesla's differentiation is quickly eroding, I think SpaceX has massive modes in differentiation. Specifically, if you look at the cost per kilogram to put stuff into orbit, SpaceX is just killing it. So I, and this is going to be another one of my predictions. I think within, I don't know what the timeframe is. I think SpaceX is going to be worth more than Tesla.

Kara Swisher: Interesting. That's a good prediction. We'll get to that in a second. Let me just say, this guy is a real entrepreneur.

Scott Galloway: No doubt.

Kara Swisher: No doubt. No. No, yeah. And he can't control. You said it. You know, something you said, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I'm going to quote you. You said something that really struck me, and I let my emotions get in the way of kind of a rational thought. You said once, I think about a year ago, you said it's not like he's invented a photo sharing app. He's trying to put people on Mars. He's trying to create electric cars. He is doing very important work. Nobody liked Edison. Let's try to keep that in mind. What an asshole he was. Is that right?

Scott Galloway: Oh, total asshole.

Kara Swisher: I didn't know that.

Scott Galloway: Totally. Go back and really look at stuff. And also hyped everything. But, you know, the light bulb. So thanks, Edison. And the movie camera. And then this and then that. So Edison was just, he is so much like Edison. It's crazy. It's not as tinkery, of course, but still. Edison was terrible about doing stuff like this and always doing sneaky stuff. Anyway, you can read some very good biographies of him.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, that was a good question. Send us more. If you've got a question you're curious about, go to nymag.com slash pivot and submit it to the show. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for Predictions.

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Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, give us this week's prediction. You just sort of gave it, right? SpaceX, or maybe not.

Scott Galloway: Oh, there's so much. SpaceX, well, this is like probably a three to five year. I think SpaceX ultimately ends up being worth more than Tesla. We were talking about CNN. I think that within 12 months, the new Discovery Plus as it's envisioned is going to be either broken up or taken over. This thing's just going to be so ripe it's going to fall off the tree. And I actually think in the next 90 days –

Kara Swisher: What's falling off what tree? To what hand? To what ground?

Scott Galloway: Well, if you look at the new Discovery Plus as it's envisioned, it just doesn't make any sense. It's just not going to survive as an independent company because the shareholder base is used to the dividends and the steady growth of an analog digital company or an old media company that's ad-supported, which is steady cash flows, and the investments they're going to need to make to move to streaming, their shareholder base isn't going to be able to stomach. It'll throw up in an earnings call. The stock will get hammered. And it's the only media asset in the world right now that has these assets. I mean, come on, HBO, CNN, that is in play because everything else, dual-class shareholders. So it's just kind of every shark in the world.

Kara Swisher: So Twitter, as you said last week.

Scott Galloway: Well, and that's my next – I'm making a lot of predictions. Within 90 days, Kara, within 90 days, there's going to be an offer for Twitter because all this bullshit with Jack and Elliot kind of ossified the company or put it into a period of stasis. Now that they have a new relatively owned CEO from internally, the stock's down. It's just it's a fucking dinner bell. Ding, ding, ding. Ding, ding, ding. Dog Cousteau.

Kara Swisher: Can I read you something?

Scott Galloway: Okay, go ahead.

Kara Swisher: "And why not take a gander given the huge trove of data that Twitter sits atop globally and its unique worldwide digital distribution system? While the company execs have been unable to grow the business, many think a link with a larger entity would spur Twitter's potential." Guess who wrote that and guess when?

Scott Galloway: Kara Swisher.

Kara Swisher: Kara Swisher, 2016. Same thing. And when Salesforce and Google and Disney.

Scott Galloway: Kara Swisher, the jungle cat. I'm just saying. The Sultan of Calorama. I'm just saying that sentence could be written.

Kara Swisher: Let me introduce you to my seventh wife. I'm sorry, go ahead.

Scott Galloway: I'm just saying the same sentence could be written today.

Kara Swisher: This has been an issue since way back when with this company. Always. Anyway, good. It's time for Twitter to command the space at Occupy.

Scott Galloway: Exactly. It's been a disaster for shareholders. Stand up straight, Twitter. Stand up straight.

Kara Swisher: Speaking of standing up straight, one thing we want to say, we had a lot of responses to our interview with John McWhorter. We love hearing from our listeners. Some people were upset. Let's talk about what we hope to gain from our guests. And Scott, you can weigh in in a second. Hosting people doesn't mean you agree with them. And I very openly disagreed with them. I disagreed with his definition of cancel culture. I disagreed with his supposed targets of cancel culture. I disagreed with his conclusions. And Scott was much more in agreement with him, but had a really great discussion. We've had lots of smart people on this show, and smart people can disagree. Even Scott and I, like today, frequently disagree. We're very obstreperous today. Now, there was a review in the Washington Post, which said, and I thought it was quite good, I think you should go read it, "McWhorter never engages in any actual cultish movements that are threatening American democracy. He likewise never engages in actual religions, the ones that get tax breaks and Supreme Court justices who hold power to take away human rights from pregnant people and civil rights from the LGBTQ community. McWhorter managed in the course of 200 pages to claim the woke are perpetrating a reign of terror, a phrase he uses twice, but devoted only three paragraphs. I counted to the actual insurrectionists who attacked the Capitol and tried to overthrow the government." Again, you could debate that opinion, but it's good to do so. One thing that we can agree on, how our society balances free speech, justice, and accountability is an unresolved issue and deserves debate. So we'll keep debating smart people on this show with curiosity, courage, kindness, and questioning. Scott, what do you say to all this?

Scott Galloway: Well, my question is more for you, and that is do you feel the need to issue these non-apology apologies when we offend conservatives?

Kara Swisher: Yes.

Scott Galloway: Why are we apologizing for this? Because I actually get— Because we had a centrist on the show?

Kara Swisher: Well, some people don't think he is. So I just—I think it's good debate. When people push back on us, we should say we're trying to have really interesting debates on the show. It's not an apology. It's not an apology by any means. It's an answer.

Scott Galloway: But why do we need to clarify that?

Kara Swisher: It's not a clarification. Isn't that just what we do? We're not saying we shouldn't. We liked having him on the show. We thought he was great. It's not a clarification. And by the way, that Post review, I felt it was unfair. It basically said something to the effect of that he has elevated the term racist to a compliment. I have never heard him in any way. I felt that. I mean, and by the way, that's fine. They're allowed to do that and we can discuss it.

Scott Galloway: But I don't. And here's the thing. Centrists are really vulnerable because if we had some total whack job from the right on, we would just write them off. But when a centrist comes on, oh, no, again, throw them into the purity fire.

Kara Swisher: No, no, we would discuss it. That is not true. John McWhorter, this is an important dialogue. I agree. I agree. Let me reassure you, even if we have John McWhorter on, your Master of Fine Arts book club is going to invite you back.

Scott Galloway: No, I do not. You know what? Once again, you act like I spend a lot of time in political debates. I think we respond to lots of letters. I think it's good. I'm just, I'm trying to support your whole point, Scott. And as usual, you're cutting me off at the knees, but it's not.

Kara Swisher: You are making, or no, I'll say we, we are making Professor McWhorter's point right now.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, no, we're not.

Kara Swisher: There needs to be more tolerance and less sensitivity around robust dialogue. That's my point here, Scott.

Scott Galloway: Okay, good. Then we agree.

Kara Swisher: No, we don't agree. The dog Cousteau is taking you down in this shark cave. You're trying to pull out all kinds of words on me to try. What was the one you used back there? You used purity. Purity test on Chris Cuomo.

Scott Galloway: Sultan of Calorama?

Kara Swisher: He lied to his bosses and he committed journalistic malpractice. It is not a purity test. Thank you. Thank you. This is just to show you, this is what you're going to get here. We do not agree on things and yet we endure. And I'm staying at his apartment this weekend in New York and I'm going to trash the place. I'm going to put Clara on the couch with grape juice. That's my plan.

Scott Galloway: Good segue. That's right. Good segue. You got out of that fun house of danger real fast.

Kara Swisher: I'm not in any danger. Anyway, well—

Scott Galloway: You know, I have a climbing wall.

Kara Swisher: What? What?

Scott Galloway: I have a climbing wall. You know, I have to be honest with you, Amanda, it's a little worried that your apartment is like a danger zone for children, that there could be sharp edges.

Kara Swisher: A lot of sharp edges. I like that Northern European danger for children. I was like, didn't you like—because other houses— she loved your house, by the way, in Florida. But she's worried about that. And I said, do not worry, but I'm bringing all the soft things you put on edges of tables just to stick them there.

Scott Galloway: No, no, no. Just wrap Claire in bubble wrap and everything's good.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, I appreciate it. And I will take pictures from there. I'll do woke pictures from there. Like I'll have all the woke people in and we'll drink your expensive champagne. Anyway, we'll be back on – that's the show. That's the obstreperous show for today. We'll be back on Tuesday for more. Read us out, Scott.

Scott Galloway: Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Miel Silverio. Ernie Indertot, engineer in this episode. Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts or if you're an Android user. Check us out on Spotify or, frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from Vox Media. We'll be back next Friday for another breakdown of all things tech and business. What is our job in the media? What is our job in academia? It's to provoke a debate such that you damage that muscle in between your ears. And regardless of where you end up, you make better, more thoughtful, more empathetic decisions. We're going to keep doing that. We're going to keep doing that. Dog Cousteau.

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