The Brutal History of Prison Labor

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And thank you. welcome to stuff you should know a production of iheart radio hey and welcome to the podcast i'm josh and there's chuck and it's just us jerry's on leave right now she's having a little r&r living it up in the south seas falling in love spending a lot of time on the beach, writing people's names in the sand for money. Wow. I assume that's what she's doing. Oh, okay. She might also just be in New York. It's one of the two. Right. Unless you could ride on a beach there. Jones Beach? I guess so, sure. Coney Island? I guess we should stop all the joking around, the horsing around, Chuck, because this is a very serious episode, so let's just end that now. Yeah. I mean, what better to chat about over what's probably going to end up being the holiday season when this is released than hard labor at prisons in that history? Yeah, because, I mean, if you think about prison labor, it's bad enough as it is. But when you really start to get into the nuts and bolts of it and all the loopholes that are abused and all of the ways that prisoners are actually treated in exchange for the labor, it's it's even worse than you would think it turns out. Yeah, that's the good news. Right. Yeah, we'll get into the bad news for sure. But the thing that I was a little surprised about from the outside is that I would have thought that this was ancient, like the Sumerians doing stuff like this. And it turns out, no. Sumerians forward all the way into the Enlightenment period in Europe just killed people. They hung you or they cut your hand off or put you in the stocks, maybe. The stocks were a non-lethal form of punishment, and you would be ridiculed by your neighbors. And then a guy named Thomas Moore wrote a book called Utopia, and he said, there's a better way, people. There's an alternative to just killing people or cutting off their hands. What if we just put them to work? There's all sorts of benefits and upsides to this. And they said, well, what are they, Thomas Moore? And he said, let me tell you, I'm glad you asked. Yeah. I mean, and we'll see this over and over again. The point has sort of always been, one, it can, or really threefold. One, it can deter people from committing crime if they see somebody manual laboring for probably no money or very little money these days. The second is it can help rehabilitate that person and make them think about what they've done, basically. Yeah. And then the most obvious one is we can get them to do stuff for us for nothing. Yeah. Like we can really use that labor, especially if you put a bunch of people together and make them work for free. You can get a lot of stuff done. And that is a fairly new form of punishment. It wasn't like immediately adopted after Thomas More wrote Utopia. He wrote it in the 16th century. even into the American Revolution and beyond, there was not like a lot of government-enforced punishment using prison labor. They were still crazy for the stocks. But there were things regarding the colonies that did have to do with punishment that did result in your labor. And that would be if you got into trouble, say, in England, you would be sentenced to transportation, either Australia or the United States, maybe even Canada, if you were lucky. And I think 60,000 people before the American Revolution, while America was British colonies or were British colonies, were sentenced to transportation and showed up there and said, OK, what do you want me to do? I'm here to work. Yeah, well, I don't doubt if they said that. They were probably more told that, but they were known as the king's passengers. and they, you know, the colonies, you know, the people in the colonies, they weren't that wild about this. They were worried about, you know, sending convicted criminals there, obviously. But most of these criminals were, you know, maybe not petty crimes, but pretty minor crimes, maybe theft, maybe vagrancy. You know, depending on what the laws were in whatever weird English village you lived, you might have committed a crime against one of those. But they weren't sending over generally to the colonies, that is, like the worst of the worst. Right. If you were a plantation owner or if you were an employer that maybe was near a prison, you were pretty psyched because that was very cheap, meaning usually free labor compared to what it cost to, you know, trade in the enslaved African market. Yeah. And we should say this early indentured servitude is what they called it. It was aimed at white people exclusively in the colonies and then later on the early United States. Because if the government intervened in a plantation owner enslaved person's dynamic, and they removed the enslaved person and put them in jail, the poor white plantation owner was the one suffering there. He lost a laborer. So it was left entirely to the plantation owners to basically keep their slaves, punish their slaves, essentially. And have you ever seen 12 Years a Slave yet? I still shamefully cannot bring myself to see that movie. Yeah, I mean, I get it. I totally understand your reticence. But the way that plantation owners punished slaves is depicted throughout in really brutal, honest fashion. And it really drives home what it was like. But you were left up to the guy that owned you legally doling out punishment based on his whim, essentially. The state would not intervene. It was just strictly up to white people. Or it was just strictly directed at white people at first. Yeah. And you know what? That's the kind of movie that you got to watch that when it comes out and when it's in the zeitgeist. Because that's never the movie when you're like, what do I want to watch tonight? It's a gloomy sighted. Several years later, it's just not going to happen. So I need to just, you know, it's like a history lesson. So I need to watch it. And I've heard it's good, like in an upsetting way, but like a well-made film. Oh, yeah, definitely. Everybody does an amazing job in it. Look at it like a classic novel that you just have to read before you die. Because I think that would be a good approach to it. You know what? When I start Moby Dick finally, I'll watch 12 Years a Slave. And I'll just do both at the same time. I remember we talked about reading Moby Dick. And a couple of people wrote in and were like, Josh, do not waste your time. It is not worth reading. And I'm just going to go with their interpretation. Oh, wow. I like Bartleby the Scrivener, But I'm not sure I could take hundreds and hundreds of pages of that writing. Yeah. Well, you know, our mutual friend and friend of the show, Joey Ciaro, is going to be very upset to hear that. I'm sorry, Joey. So as far as these laborers, 90 percent of the ones that were of those 60,000 that were sent to the states, which is I'm surprised it was, you know, 90 percent. They ended up kind of in two places, Maryland to Virginia, probably working in, you know, industry like, you know, the Industrial Revolution type stuff or on the farms like tobacco farming, obviously, in Virginia. And it was terrible work. It was really brutal. You know, you're talking maybe seven to 14 years is your sentence after your sentence. Maybe you go back to England. Maybe you have a shot at a free life in the new colonies. But, you know, just like getting out of prison these days, it's not a it's not an easy transition to make. Right. The ones that went back to England were like, I really miss the tasteless cuisine of home. Right. So back then, maybe. Sure. It's come a long way. So one of the it has for sure. One of the other things that had to evolve for prison labor to become an actual thing in the United States was prisons themselves. Like at the same time when they were still crazy about the stocks and indentured servitude, like you had jails. You didn't have prisons. And a jail was basically where they kept you while you were awaiting trial or sentencing or something like that. And then you left the jail. The idea of going to a place to be held as a punishment in and of itself, that is prisons, that came later on after the American Revolution. I think it was the Quakers that came up with the idea of the penitentiary, which is meant to give you quiet time to reflect on what terrible things you've done and hopefully find God and come out of it a better person. And of course, it's not how it worked out. But very quickly after penitentiaries became a thing, prison labor became a thing in really short order, actually, like decades, maybe. Yeah, and I never thought about the root word penitent for penitentiaries. it was sort of one of those things where I was today years old, you know? Yeah, but I mean, like, yeah, it's just so easy to look right past it. It's its own thing. Yeah, for sure. But yeah, redemptive suffering is what they called it, and that was a big part of being in prison and committing, well, not committing to hard labor, like being committed to hard labor. Auburn Prison in New York was one of the sort of leading examples that set the way forward for what was to become the norm, where private businesses would lease prison buildings along with the prisoners and say, hey, we're just going to, you've got this big building over here, you've got lots of free labor, I'm going to bring my machinery into here. And all of a sudden the prison is part prison and part, you know, industrial plant for whatever company worked out whatever deal. And that provided a real model moving forward. I think Auburn, the prisoners of Auburn ended up building Sing Sing. Yeah. Yeah, they used them for that as well. And I think Sing Sing opened in 1828. So this is going on. Like if prisons became a thing around the time of the American Revolution, like I said, my point is proven this transition happened quickly. Yeah. So by the time the Civil War came around, like this, it's called the Northern Model or the Auburn Prison Model, where you can rent a building, rent the inmates, and then set up shop there. that's what prison labor looked like, or else you were working for the prison, like, say, building other prisons. That's what the North was doing. In the South, they were still quite hung up on the idea of chattel slavery and owning a person and making them work until they died, essentially. That was something that was really ingrained in the culture and was not an easy thing to give up despite having lost the Civil War and the 13th Amendment being passed. and I know you've seen 13th, the Ava DuVernay documentary. I have seen that. That's a great one too. That's one of those like life-changing, perspective-changing, eye-opening type documentaries. Yeah, and even if I hadn't seen it, I would lie to your face right now. Okay. And all of our listeners, because there's no way you're going to double shame me. Well, how about this? But I did see it. Well, if you are lying right now and you go look for it, do not be confused by the documentary 13th that came out in 2025. Yeah, different thing. Yeah, it's about the high-pressure student exams in India. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm sure that's upsetting too. I'm sure. But the 13th Amendment is kind of what we're talking about here. And that's not only abolished slavery, it abolished involuntary servitude of all kinds, except one tiny provision, one little loophole that said that if you're a convicted prisoner, you can be punished with slave labor. That's okay. And not only was it okay, it's enshrined in the Constitution that slave labor is legal in prisons. Yeah. And, you know, it's one of those things where it's hard to go back and imagine what the original framers intended. But I think most people agree that they didn't intend to just have, you know, enslavement and another name, basically. Right. Whereas that's basically what happened for a long, long time, you know, through the loophole. And, you know, you mentioned loopholes at the beginning. There's been a lot of loopholes over the year, and anytime there's a loophole, somebody's going to exploit it, like, for greedy purposes. Yeah, free labor? I saw that the reason that they included it in that amendment was because it was just such a no-brainer that you would want the ability to perform hard labor rather than just being punished in other ways, that it was just an accepted thing. That, yeah, that loophole wasn't meant to be there. But in the South, almost immediately, they put that to use. We did an episode on the Black Codes back in January of 2022. Yeah. Another very eye-opening topic. And those only lasted like a year or two. And it was basically they criminalized being a free Black person in the South. Yeah. And so they could pick you up and they could arrest you with something. If you couldn't prove on the spot that, say, you had a job, you'd be arrested for vagrancy. You'd be taken to jail. and then you could be leased out as a slave to a local plantation owner doing the work you were doing before you were freed by the 13th Amendment legally because of that loophole in the 13th Amendment. Yeah, maybe to the same plantation where you were previously held. Right. Yeah, a lot of times. That's a great episode. People should go back and listen to that. Agreed. That, you know, the Black Codes went away with the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the 14th Amendment, which was ratified in 1868, made equal rights and protections, you know, the law everywhere, basically. But, you know, there were still ways to make things happen, especially in the South, and especially, as it turns out, shamefully in Georgia. Georgia kind of led the way. In 1868, there was a provisional governor named Thomas Ruger, and he leased, like, this is when kind of the big sort of prisoner trade started where they were leasing prisoners to different states, kind of back and forth. Like, hey, you've got a farm in your state that needs like a crop tended to. Well, let me lease you some prisoners from our state. And Georgia led the way early on with 100 black prisoners being leased to William Fort of the Georgia and Alabama Railroad for $2,500. So that's $25 a prisoner, right? But here's the thing. It's like, hey, you're paying us to lease these prisoners to you. So now not only are we getting money for that, but now they're your responsibility. But your responsibility didn't really mean anything. Like 16 of those prisoners died in the first year. And as you'll see a story that, you know, is going to be repeated over and over, that was, you know, one of the biggest problems with all of this is like basic medical care was not provided and decent food. And certainly like, you know, if somebody was sick, they would just let them die, basically. Right. And that still happens today. I mean, not quite to that dramatic a degree, but when people die in custody in prison, there's not a lot that the prison's held accountable for. So that's essentially a longstanding thing in the United States. People like prisoners dying, even though they haven't been sentenced to death. So I think you said that Georgia was making some pretty good money off of this starting in the 1860s. I read this started to like other states were like, oh, that's a really good idea. By 1898, convict leasing made up 73 percent of Alabama's state revenue. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Which is really saying something. Yeah, that's a staggering stat. Right. And then when Reconstruction ended, the federal government just basically said, hey, we really just want to be on good terms with the southern elite again. So we're just going to leave you on your own and withdrew from the south. Black people were in really terrible positions, really vulnerable positions. And at that time, prison labor stepped up. Incarceration stepped up, but prison labor also did it as well. And it was nothing compared to what you would, the work you would be put to in the north. It was essentially slavery all over again. But again, this time, the feds, the union wasn't going to come down and push anybody around at the end of a bayonet because this was all agreed upon in the 13th Amendment. Yeah, like up north, if you were working prison labor, you might work an eight or nine hour day. in the South, it was routinely 12 to 16 hours or just however long they felt like you needed to work to get whatever job done. There's anecdotal evidence, at least like during the cotton harvest, like before the cotton harvest, that the plantation owners would call up the sheriff and say, hey, why don't you make some more arrests? We need some guys. And, you know, a lot of these pretextual arrests were happening where it was just like, you know, they would just cook something up and arrest you and you have basically no rights and no representation. So it's just a way to stock the industry or the farm or the field with workers. Right. So that was like plantation owners, local plantation owners. Like you said, you could have been a former slave who was arrested for something as stupid as mischief and put back to work on that same plantation essentially as a slave. They would also, like corporations got in on this as well. Like you said, the railroad, There was a company in Alabama called the Schloss Sheffield Steel and Iron Company in Jefferson County, Alabama. That's where their mines were. They had a 10 percent death rate from the leased convict labor that they got from the state. And there was a sugar company, the Imperial Sugar Company in Sugarland, Tennessee, which I guess is an appropriate place for it to be. Where else? A lot of people died when Texas leased them every single state prisoner it had in 1878 to help in the sugar fields. People were dying of things like malaria. Like you said, they weren't given any kind of medical care at all. They were fed just the minimum amount to keep them alive and have energy enough to work. And this was just par for the course in the South. Yeah, I mean, I was bagging on Georgia because that's our home state. or my home home state. But Louisiana has kind of from the beginning been certainly one of the worst offenders. In the 1870s and 80s, they built the New Orleans Pacific Railway with prison labor. About 140 people died. And when you look at some of the incarceration rates and especially incarceration rates for black males in the United States today, Louisiana leads the way. And also with some of the worst, you know, working conditions for forced labor. Mm-hmm. That's another thing, too, that you mentioned. Like, they built the railroad or say they mined something that was turned into a product that people use. They don't think about, I'm sure they didn't think, like, oh, this railroad's really nice. The prisoners who built it really did a good job. Right. That actually still carries on today. Like, a lot of people don't realize that the stuff they're buying from a big box retailer was made somewhere down the line by a convict who was essentially leased out to that company to make those products. It still goes on today. Yeah. I mean, the chicken on your plate in your house might have come from a chicken farm that had, and you know, these are people that are sort of the work release programs we're going to talk about later, where they leave the prison to go work for like a private industry. And a lot of times it might be like a chicken farm or they may work at a DMV call center or something like that. So, yeah, the person you talk to on the phone might be, you know, incarcerated. Yeah, which is quite surprising. But, Chuck, don't call it convict leasing, even though essentially it's so much the same thing that basically just the people's clothes changed. That's what's going on today still. Supposedly in the 1930s, thanks to the New Deal, America became enlightened enough that we moved on past convict leasing. We didn't do that kind of stuff anymore. not at least a private industry. Prison labor, working for the prison or working for the state, that was still A-OK. Yeah. I mean, that was, you know, sort of 50 years before that is when wage workers started complaining. Like prisoners obviously were complaining. Families might be complaining, but they're not going to get very far. But once wage workers got unions involved, they're like, hey, these, you know, we want these jobs. We want to make a little bit of money ourselves. And that's when it finally started to change a little bit. And I think eventually that led to that New Deal era law prohibiting interstate trade and prison made products. But in 1934, the federal prison industries was created. It's now known as Unicor. And that is still a big program. It employs people that are incarcerated in our federal system, not state prisons again, and obviously not private. prisons. Are any federal prisons private or is that just state? I don't know. I don't know the answer to that question. I know. We never did one on the private prison industry, did we? No, and we really should. That's on the list. They do this too. And they like the idea of them leasing out convicts for before private prison is just mind boggling. Yeah, for sure. But yeah, with Unicor, they're making things for the federal government, like a lot of times, military fatigues or furniture, stuff like that. Right. Yeah. And if you are a government agency, you have to go to Unicor first to see if they have what you want. Then you order for them then. And so even still today, like companies complain like these guys, it's unfair competition. You know, they have like unpaid labor making these products so they can sell it for whatever. And the feds are basically like, we can't hear you. Should we take a break? I think so. Yeah. I mean, since the feds can't hear us. Yeah, right. We might as well. We might as well. All right. We'll be right back with more on prison labor. Our listeners love puzzles, paradoxes, and hidden patterns almost as much as we do. On TikTok, those fascinations come to life. People are breaking down physics, exploring geology, and explaining why the world works the way it does. You'll see impressive experiments, explanations that finally make sense, and connections you didn't expect. It's like having a lab, a lecture hall, and science museum in your pocket. TikTok is where wonder is shared, where curiosity turns into discovery, and where millions learn something new every day. You know, everyone living with a rare autoimmune condition has their own story to tell. 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Peace of mind starts with knowing the truth. mypolicyadvocate.com. Okay, so when we left off, like convict leasing was dead in the north, thanks to labor unions. The South has long been considered kind of anti-worker, so labor unions never really got a foothold here. So it took a little longer for convict leasing to go away. But again, that doesn't mean that there was no such thing as prison labor. They just kind of directed them to state-owned stuff. A really good example of this is a Parchman Farm in Mississippi, part of Parchman State Penitentiary. It's a 20,000-acre farm where in the early 19-teens, with a 90% black prison population, prisoners were put to work on this farm. And one of the reasons it got so famous very quickly, in addition to just the scope of what was going on, was they used a trustee system. They spelled it trusty as in T-R-U-S-T-Y, where some of the worst, most violent convicted felons that were prisoners there were given rifles and said, you guys make sure this other 80 percent of your fellow prisoners do the work the way we want them to. Yeah, that's a really interesting system. It really is. It seems risky, you know? Yeah, I wanted to look more, I'm going to look more into that just for my own edification, but because I'm curious that that dynamic is, I don't know, it seems like it would create a really dodgy dynamic. It would, but it also reminded me of, what is the Quentin Tarantino antebellum slavery movie? Django Uncanny. Oh, yeah, Django. Remember he posed as a black slaver? Uh-huh. That's kind of how I took it to kind of be like. Yeah, I think you're probably right. Chain gangs is something that, you know, you've seen in like movies and stuff. Like I was watching Oh Brother Where Art Thou? Oh yeah, I forgot they have that in there. And there was, you know, chain gang scenes in that. And that was another type of sort of very public penal labor because they were put in place to build roads in the South in the 1920s. You know, hard laboring all day again in the South, out in the hot sun on that blacktop, 10 to 15 hours a day. But they were chained together. That's why they were called chain gangs. They were chained to their ankle. They stayed chained when they walked to the job. They stayed chained as they slept in their bunks that were close to one another. And again, the conditions were abysmal. Terrible food. They were beaten. They were tortured. I think there was this one investigation. This wasn't a chain gang, but this was Tucker Farm in Arkansas, where they found that the Staff stripped prisoners naked at the prison hospital and put electric shocks to their testicles and penis. Women prisoners were also subjected to work in the fields, not as much as men. They were the main labor force, but women were put to work as well. Have you ever read a beloved Toni Morrison novel? I feel like I have to say yes. You should read that too if you have. No, I haven't read that. It's very good, but it's mind-bogglingly good, actually. But there's a few scenes about a chain gang and just what it would have been like. One of the main characters spent time on a chain gang. And, I mean, you said it was brutal work, and they were building roads. Like, a good example of what chain gangs did, if you were building a road, you were using, like, human labor to build roads. This was before they had machinery. Right. Like, road-building machinery. It just didn't exist. So you used human beings to do this stuff. If you ran into, say, in Georgia and you were building a state road, if you ran into a chunk of Stone Mountain that was popping up out of the ground where you wanted your road to go, well, you would just set a bunch of convicts to work on it with sledgehammers, and eventually they're going to wear it down to nothing if you give them long enough and work them hard enough. That's what people did on chain gangs. That's just what life was like. And again, you were working outside, so you weren't protected in any way, shape, or form. You were fed meagerly. Like you were working as hard as anyone's ever worked in their life with like the minimum amount of nutrition, the minimum amount of rest. And if you put all that together, especially if you think about it accumulating, it's a brutal, brutal form of prison labor. Yeah. And I mean, it was a racist framework. I know we're talking a lot about the racism involved. There were white labor camps and stuff like that, of course, too. You know, sometimes they look like Paul Newman even. Yeah. But it was very much a racist framework wherein the threat of violence, the threat of torture, they felt was like a necessary component to, you know, quote unquote, keeping guys in line. Yeah, one of the other things too is there was a certain amount of usefulness to letting these chain gangs get these horrible reputations because the reach of these things reached out beyond the inside of prisons into the outside world. Because if you were black and you were looking for a job and you could be arrested for not having a job and put onto a chain gang and you knew it, you would accept all sorts of terrible working conditions and low pay because at least that was better than being put on a chain gang, which if you didn't accept this job and got caught without a job, you would end up on a chain gang anyway. That was another really kind of insidious effect that they had. Yeah, but, you know, it's not like this kind of thing was being, you know, there were no exposés being written in newspapers about chain gangs. You might drive by one, and that's how you knew they existed. But little by little, what went on with these chain gangs started to kind of leak out, especially all over the South. There are a couple of famous examples. in 1932, there was a white Northern veteran who was a convict, obviously, named Robert Burns. He published a book called I Am a Fugitive from a Georgia Chain Gang! Exclamation point. That's why I read it that way. That kind of got the word out a little bit. There was a movie adaptation. Have you seen that? I haven't seen it. Have you? Yeah. Really? Yeah, it's really, yeah, for some reason, I don't know where Yumi found out about it, but she, it's one of her well-liked movies. I don't want to say it's one of her favorite, but she showed it to me. What year was that? The movie? Yeah. I thought you were asking when I saw it. 1932, I believe, or 1935, something like that. I don't watch a lot of movies from that era. But, Chuck, you should. This one, it has 8.2 on IMDb, and that's a pretty high rating. It's really good. It's a good movie. Well, in 1947, some more news leaked out when a black civil rights activist named Bayard Rustin, And I know we've talked about Baird Rustin before. He was on a chain gang in North Carolina after being arrested for civil disobedience. And a series of articles that he wrote came out in the New York Post. Did you read those? I read some of I read like, you know, snippets from it just to sort of get an idea. Oh, I was just kidding. I don't know. I looked into some of it, but I didn't like sit around and read them. Yeah, I got you. Yeah, no, I was trying to get you again. I got you. But the 50s and 60s, like because of the New York Post and because of that movie that Yumi Loves came out, 50s and 60s is kind of when chain gangs basically went away. Although, you know, if you lived in Maricopa County, Arizona in the 90s, you know, they tried pretty hard. What was that guy's name? The sheriff there? Joe Arpaio. Yeah, I'm not sure how you pronounce it, but he made big news a lot. Yeah. And he was one of the guys trying to push for the reinstatement of the chain gangs. Did not happen, though, because, again, America lost its taste for chain gangs in the first half of the 20th century. And the idea of bringing them back was not something that you would want to do. Even beyond that, not bringing back the chain gangs, prison labor got to be more and more or I should say less and less brutal. How about that? Because the other way I could have put it is more and more less brutal. And that just doesn't make sense. Well, we took a late break, so it wasn't too long ago, but I feel like we should go ahead and get our second one under our belt. OK. All right. We'll be right back and talk about the modern era of mass incarceration. Our listeners love puzzles, paradoxes, and hidden patterns almost as much as we do. On TikTok, those fascinations come to life. People are breaking down physics, exploring geology, and explaining why the world works the way it does. You'll see impressive experiments, explanations that finally make sense, and connections you didn't expect. It's like having a lab, a lecture hall, and science museum in your pocket. TikTok is where wonder is shared, where curiosity turns into discovery, and where millions learn something new every day. You know, everyone living with a rare autoimmune condition has their own story to tell. 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Policyholders rarely do. So for just 27 cents a day, my policy advocate reads your policies and explains in plain language where you're vulnerable. They don't sell insurance. They give you the same understanding insurers have had for decades. Before you trust your policy to protect you, let My Policy Advocate tell you what it really says. Go to MyPolicyAdvocate.com. All right. We've covered mass incarceration quite a bit, certainly in our prisons episode. But here's a stat for you. Over a 36-year period from 1970 to 2008, the population of the United States rose by about 50%, and the population of incarcerated prisoners rose by 700%. That's crazy. So we entered the mass incarceration era big time over about a 36-year period thanks to, well, thanks to a lot, but namely thanks to Nixon, Reagan, and Bill Clinton. Yeah, Nixon's war on drugs, Reagan's tough-on-crime thing, Clinton trying to wrestle the tough-on-crime, I guess, moniker away from the GOP. And I guess it was part of the Democrats' platform every year until 2008 when it was quietly removed. And not coincidentally, 2008 is the year that the peak incarceration happened, like you said. Yeah, now we're about, that went from 1.6 in 2008 to about 1.3 million incarcerated individuals in the United States now. Yeah, because America's become softer and gentler. About 600 of every 100,000 people in the U.S. are incarcerated. That is a higher rate than any other country in the world except Cuba, Rwanda, and El Salvador. and Louisiana once again leads the way at 1,000 per 100,000. And the rate for black Americans is 900 per 100,000. Can I talk about El Salvador for a second? Because I looked into their incredibly high incarceration rates. Sure. Do they do prison labor? I didn't check that out, but I got this other stuff about it. How about that? Sure. So they have essentially established an authoritarian crackdown on gangs. And in 2015, their murder rate was 103 people per 100,000 population, which means every year more than 1% of their population was murdered. So they cracked down on gangs and just started throwing everybody in jail. And between 2015 and 2022, their murder rate went from 103 per 100,000 to 7.8 per 100,000. Which you're like, okay, that's actually, I mean, authoritarian crackdowns on gangs and prisons is not very tasteful, but at least they got results. Here in the United States, we don't have the same excuse for that level of rise in incarceration. Our homicide rate in 1955 was 4.5. In 2024, it was like five. It's remained relatively flat, give or take a few points like here or there over the years. So there's no reason why our prison population should have increased 700%. It just, there's no reason for it. Yeah. unless you expand crimes, especially nonviolent crimes like drug possession, and really throw the book at people, which is what happened during that time. Right, exactly. As far as prison labor goes, most of the people in state and federal prison these days do some kind of prison labor. I think out of the 1.3 million-ish, that's about 800,000 as of a few years ago. The ones who don't are probably either too old or have some sort of disability or health problem that won't allow them to. About 80% of those workers are working for the prison. So, you know, when you work in the cafeteria or you work in the laundry or something like that, that's about 80% of it. And most of the rest are kind of what we were talking about earlier, government-run operations. Maybe you do laundry for a public hospital. Maybe you work in that DMV call center. About 2% of total prison workers in the federal prison system worked for Unicor still. And I was curious about the whole license plate thing, you know, the sort of trope. But most of that doesn't happen at prisons anymore because it's just cheaper to have, you know, robot machinery do that kind of thing. But it's still a thing in some states. And I know Utah is one of them. It's called the UCI operation and they call themselves plate busters. And they make them all. Even the specialty like ski Utah plates and the Olympic plates and stuff like that, they're making them all still. I saw that there's like a longstanding kind of jokey observation that prisoners in New Hampshire make their license plate. And on the license plate, it says live free or die. Right. And that's actually true. And they still do today at the state prison in Concord. The prisoners in New Hampshire make those license plates. Yeah. Yeah, I imagine making those and making ski Utah plates or, I don't know, adds a little salt to the situation, you know? For sure. I like that saying. A little salt to the situation? Well, I didn't want to say wound. No one likes that word. No, it's not a very pleasant word. Some of these prisoners do dangerous work, too, though. You know, it's not all just like sort of hourly, easy stuff. No, no. I mean, like, again, you're engaged in forced, unpaid labor. So you go where they tell you to go. I know in California, you might end up fighting wildfires. And this is one of the highest paying jobs, as we'll see. You get $2 to $5 a day plus $1 an hour. When you're actively fighting wildfires in California, that's something they can make you do if you're a prisoner. Yeah. Saving the houses of the wealthy. Yeah. But not always wealthy, to be fair. Yeah. No, but there are a lot of wealthy people in California, to be sure. Yeah. Not only firefighting, disaster recovery sometimes, lead paint removal. I think there's around 5% of the incarcerated workforce, which is about 40,000 people, work for private industry still. Right. And that, a lot of times, is like the work camp that I was talking about. So they may they may work at a fast food restaurant or maybe like a work on the custodial staff at a well-known hotel chain. Yeah. And a lot of these bigger businesses have policies where they don't use leased convict labor like this. But they also sometimes can't do a thing about it. Like if their supplier part of the supply chain is that like like companies don't know who's painting the patio furniture that they're selling. Like they just don't know. And that the company painting the furniture might be using least convict labor or they their franchisees can use least convict labor in the corporate office can't do anything about it because they don't own those stores. So it still does happen, even though large corporations in the U.S. tend to have policies against that and, in fact, have policies that that they put in place to hire felons, like preferential hiring of felons. Still, it washes out to where there's plenty of least convict labor today in private businesses. Yeah. And, you know, we've talked about money a little bit here and there, like, you know, no pay. And, you know, sometimes there is pay, sometimes there isn't. There's no federal law that says that someone has to be paid for work if they're a prisoner. On the state level, it depends on the state, but, you know, a lot of them pay nothing at all. I think the average pay for a prisoner in the U.S. is 52 cents an hour, and that was like three years ago. So I doubt if it's gone up that much. Who knows? Maybe it's gone down. Almost always under a dollar an hour. You may get like minimum wage if you work one of the really hazardous jobs in a pretty forward thinking state. But then the prison can turn around and say, yeah, but we're going to take most of that paycheck to cover like room and board or maybe to provide restitution to your victims if it was a financial thing. Exactly. So like even if you're off making federal minimum wage at KFC as, you know, as a prisoner as part of your prison labor, you're ending up with pennies on the dollar per hour after they deduct all that stuff from you. So that's why that average for all prison workers is 52 cents an hour because they deduct so many things. That's why it's essentially convict leasing. That person goes out, works, they get paid, and the prison says, we're taking this X amount of your pay for our own use. That has to go into the private prison, like, financial, you know, success rate, right? Precisely. Private prisons are able to do that. They probably deduct way more. But the other problem with it, too, is that they're at the same time getting tax breaks for leasing out their convicts. Right. to use in the outside world. So they're getting like fees and tax breaks. It's quite a racket from what I can tell. Yeah, while the basic needs a lot of times of these prisoners aren't even being met, still some pretty bad conditions as far as medical treatment goes and food. I think Olivia helped us with this. She did a great job, but she found one woman named Carla Simmons who is incarcerated in a woman's prison. And she wrote last year, and this is right here in Georgia, that prisoners aren't paid. And she said the food is so bad that people try to get work assignments where they can dig through the trash to eat the guards' meals, like the portions that they threw away. Good God. In 2024. Yeah. One of the other things, too, is that, I mean, people point to this and say, like, okay, yes, we agree that prison labor is in and of itself a good thing. Like Thomas Moore was right. Like you can, there is redemption in labor. We're not saying do away with it, but it needs a lot of reforms. These are the people who are like, well, reform-minded about the whole thing. There's basically no one saying we should do away with prison labor, but they say it should be the kind of labor that's going to help them get jobs on the outside where they learn valuable skills. They should be paid fairly, federal minimum wage at least, for the labor that they're doing. And they should also get protections that any worker gets in the United States. This to me is mind-blowing. We have workers protections out the yin-yang here in the U.S. We have OSHA. We have the Fair Labor Standards Act. All of these are meant to protect workers physically from injury and also protect them from being screwed over by their employers. And court after court after court has ruled that prison laborers do not count for these protections. They're not classified as employees because as I saw it put, the prison owns the prisoner's labor. The laborer doesn't own their own labor. So how can an employee be in that situation? They can't, therefore they don't get any of these protections. Yeah, I mean, there was a lawsuit brought in Alabama in 2024 that was dismissed because they basically were like, oh, this isn't forced labor. These are mandatory chores. So it's just like depends on what you want to call it, I guess. in 2021 there was a there's a international anti-slavery non-profit called walk free in australia who produces what's called the global slavery index and the united states is uh one of 17 countries that um use state-imposed forced labor along with china and russia and some other places and the united states is one of the uh one of only six u.n member states that hasn't ratified the forced labor convention of 1930, which we considered, the Senate considered that in 1991, like, hey, maybe we should sign on to this thing. And they said, no, it really, really conflicts with subcontracting these prisoners out to private companies. So like, let's not foul that. Yeah, we'll just, we'll walk past that one. Yeah. And like, I think you mentioned Europe and the UN, there's, in Europe, essentially, the way that they treat prison labor is what I was saying that in the U.S. prison labor reform people are calling for. And you mentioned Alabama in that lawsuit about mandatory chores, not prison labor. The reason that lawsuit even came up is because Alabama, surprisingly, is one of seven states that in the last few years has passed in their state constitution a ban on prison labor. You're not allowed to, you can't force prisoners to work. They can. You can use prison labor, but you have to pay them and you can't coerce them with punishments. Some of the punishments that prisoners face if they refuse to work, they might be transferred to a higher security prison, which is not what you want to happen to you. Their family visits may get cut. There's all sorts of punishments that can be meted out legally, except in these states under their constitution. But like you said, that lawsuit where they were like, these aren't this isn't involuntary servitude. It's mandatory chores. Yeah. There's they don't have any teeth right now. Yeah. Tennessee was in there, too. Sort of surprising in Nebraska. Here's, you know, finally some numbers for you. And I love it when they kind of put numbers like this, which is like, hey, if you actually spent this in the long run, it would be better for everybody. Right. I love those stats. And this is one of those. incarcerated workers saves prison, saves prisons about $15 billion a year and produces another $2 billion in goods and services. And so the Edgeworth economics group did a study, a cost benefit analysis last year and found that, hey, if they actually use that money to pay incarcerated workers like an okay wage, like maybe even just minimum wage, it would reduce the burden on families to send money, which they don't have a lot of money to begin with. Maybe they could pay child support from prison and improve their earnings like once they get out. And so they did the math and they found out in the end, every dollar spent on prisoners wages would add up to a society wide return of $2.40 to $3.16. Man, that's pretty, it's pretty good ROI just for paying prisoners. I know. I can't think of any better way to end this one, can you? I got nothing else. I thought I heard you dropped your mic even. No, no, it's still up. Okay, well, since Chuck said his mic's still good to go, I guess it's time for listener mail. It's hard to drop the mic in the studio because you've got to unscrew it. I know. I've got like a windscreen. Two things have to get unplugged, and by that time, everyone's left their room, you know. They gave you a windscreen? I didn't get a windscreen. I bought my own. I brought this from home. So who is this from? This is from Kimberly. Hey, guys, thanks for keeping me company on long work trips, during chores, and throughout my day-to-day life. I feel like I'm listening to old friends, like a lot of people have said before. I appreciate how my worldview is challenged and enlightened when I listen to the show. My weekly trivia team also appreciates how I can answer some of the most random questions thanks to the random facts. And Kimberly sent in a great recommendation, how crowds work. I'd love to know more about how humans move through crowds. How do we manage to avoid bumping into each other at airports, stadiums, and other crowded places? That's a great one. How do we avoid crowd crushes? I feel like we touched on that, no? We have on our Black Friday episode and a couple others. We've talked about crowd crushes. Yeah, I think maybe just crowds would be a pretty good idea. Yeah. We could work in standing in line where that came from. Do people do that? I don't stand in lines. No. A lot of people do, surprisingly. and wait for their turn, I think is what they call it, their turn. I'm a line jumper. You know, people love those guys. Yeah, right. The key is to just not pay attention to anyone behind you. Pretend like they're not there. I had a guy at the airport recently, and, you know, boarding an airplane in the United States is just one of the worst things that can happen, especially after I've seen how they do it in Australia, which is to say civil and friendly. And this guy was standing behind us, me and Emily and Ruby, like in the line really to get like to get on not the crowd that goes before they announce it and he just like all of a sudden just walked right around us and jumped in front or tried to and I like sort of just bodied up a little bit yeah and you want to see an incensed human is I don't know if it's all 10 year olds but my daughter when someone tries to jump a line She was furious. Did you see that guy? He tried to break in line. It was like almost no worse defense at that age. Was he in your shot? Did he hear her say that? Well, I don't think so, but I repeated it loudly so Emily could hear. I said, did you hear what Ruby just said? She's calling out this guy behind us. Man, why would you do that? I don't know. It's just, I don't know. I don't know, Josh. I mean, I get the drive to get on board as fast as possible to get some overhead space so they don't check your carry-on bag because it's all you have. And you don't want to stand around waiting for it because you've got to get out of the airport as soon as possible. But you still don't walk around people that you're in line behind. I know. And we were in that sort of, you know, they do zones now. I think we were zone one or two. So it wasn't like we were at the back of the plane and it was going to be dog-eat-dog for that space. Yeah. Maybe he just could not wait to get some pretzels. The mustard. Anyways, sorry. Rant over. Was that the end of Kimberly's email too? Yeah. Great idea, Kimberly. I think we will do one on crowds eventually, and we will try like heck to remember to credit you with the idea because it was 100% yours. That's right. If you want to be like Kimberly and give us a great idea, we love that kind of thing, you can send it off to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Living with an autoimmune condition isn't easy, and every journey is different. That's why Season 5 of Untold Stories, Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition from Ruby Studio and Argenix, shares powerful firsthand stories from people with conditions like MG and CIDP. Hosted by Martine Hackett, these conversations dive into what resilience really looks like through setbacks, breakthroughs, and finding strength in community. 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