Sunday Special: Bringing Broadway Home

Gilbert Cruz: When I was a kid growing up, I went to public school in the Bronx, and it was in the sixth or seventh grade. I had a math teacher. I'm sure he was a fine-to-good math teacher. The reason, however, that I remember him most is because I recall him, vividly recall him, taking an inordinate amount of time the year that I had him to have us read and listen to the lyrics and music for the musical Les Mis, Les Miserables.

Gilbert Cruz: So instead of teaching math, he would play what I assume was the cast recording in class, and he would explain to us what was going on in the story. And then eventually, we went to see a live Broadway performance of Les Mis. You're a lucky boy. Yeah, I think for some people, that would be the ideal math class. I cannot say it wasn't. I cannot say it was. All I remember is, why are we not learning math here? I feel like math will be more useful to me. This is what I was thinking at this age. than theater. And buddies, I was wrong because theater has proven much more useful to me in life than math. At least today. At least today.

Gilbert Cruz: This is the Sunday special. I'm Gilbert Cruz. Joining me today is Jesse Green, a culture correspondent here at The Times and a longtime theater critic for the paper. Welcome, Jesse.

Jesse Green: Thank you, Gilbert.

Gilbert Cruz: And Elizabeth Vincentelli is the former chief theater critic for the New York Post and a regular arts and culture contributor to The Times. Hello, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth Vincentelli: Hello.

Gilbert Cruz: And I just want to start by saying, particularly given what the two of you do, that, of course, seeing theater live is the best possible way to experience it. But I think we all know that it's not always possible. It's not always accessible. It can be rather expensive sometimes. So today we're going to talk about all the ways to experience theater if you cannot actually get there.

Jesse Green: Well, aside from my parents fighting in the house, I mean, that's just like Virginia Woolf. That's very dramatic. Yeah. No, cast albums. I think like most people of my generation and my parents had among the jazz and classical and opera, they had a lot of the classic musical theater. Guys and Dolls, Carousel, Oklahoma, things like that. And they were in regular rotation in our house and regular rotation.

Gilbert Cruz: What did that mean? I mean, you didn't exactly have a playlist. You just picked up the LP. Yes, they were LPs and you put them on the turntable. People are really into vinyl. Again, Jesse, they know exactly what you're talking about.

Jesse Green: Okay, well, so my parents would go to Broadway and go see shows, and they developed an interest in Sondheim, and we didn't know who that was, and they would bring back cassette tape recordings. And we had a cassette tape recording of A Little Night Music, and I was obsessed with it. This is 1973 or something like that. And I couldn't really understand all the lyrics. It's very contrapuntal. There's voices here and there. And I was so obsessed with it, and because it was a tape, there was no lyric booklet. and I actually transcribed the entire musical by hand.

Gilbert Cruz: Get out of here. I did. And in order to get some of the lyrics, you know, you had to switch, you know, had to move to the right speaker, move to the left speaker. And of course, I got a few mondegreens out of that, like crazy wrong lyrics, but that I was convinced were the right lyrics.

Gilbert Cruz: But when you want to be part of the musical theater and you can't be there yourself, you will find these weird ways to incorporate it almost physically, in my case, into my body by writing it and then, you know, singing it, unfortunately, whenever I played it again.

Elizabeth Vincentelli: Well, I had a completely different experience because I grew up in a very tiny, I can't even discover it as a village because it was the middle of nowhere in France. So we had no cast album, no theater. But what we did have is we had a lot of theater on TV, actually, because French TV has done live broadcast or what would now be called live captures. They were on all the time. And so I used to watch them a lot. And one in particular, I think, was very informative on my taste because every Friday there was a show called Au Théâtre Ce Soir, which means at the theater tonight.

Gilbert Cruz: And the only, that was not the classics, it was all boulevard stuff with actors who were kind of comic tornadoes.

Elizabeth Vincentelli: When you say boulevard, I know the word, but you're referring to timely comedies? Yes, exactly. It's comedies very often involving cheating husbands and husbands and wives. Thirteen Rues de l'Amour, things like that. You know, and mistaken identities, all that. So a lot of slapsticky stuff. So I would watch that religiously with my grandmother, which tells you how edgy that was.

Gilbert Cruz: And, yeah, I was completely obsessed with them. And they would have some new boulevard. And then they had, like, classics. Like, they had Fidou and La Biche.

Elizabeth Vincentelli: So that's really what I grew up with.

Gilbert Cruz: That brings up that back in the day, there would be variety shows on television. Yeah. And often they would include incredibly long stretches. They were taped in New York. They would get the cast of some current show. They'd come on and do an eight-minute segment, an 11-minute segment. And you would get particularly sort of brassy dames kind of musicals. But it was a great way to see that stuff. And it was a way for people to learn what musical theater was about.

Gilbert Cruz: And also the borders between pop and Broadway were very porous. Like you had the Supremes doing a Broadway medley that went on for like 29 minutes. So it felt like it.

Elizabeth Vincentelli: And the Beatles sang So There Was Love. music man song. Oh, we were gone for the same reference. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So, but yeah.

Gilbert Cruz: And then I got into MGM musicals when I was a teen. And I would say a big breakthrough was one of my aunts had a cast album of Hair. I later realized it was the British cast. Uh-oh. Didn't know that at the time. Like the inferior cast? Always. That is true. Actually, that is. It is true. No, it's. Absolutely. We can go. Rule number one, get the original. Broadway cast.

Gilbert Cruz: I did not realize it was such... Apologies to our British... Our British listeners. I did not realize. No, no, no, no apology to them. Get better performers. It's true. No, I mean, I'm not going to argue on that. Okay. That's absolutely true.

Gilbert Cruz: So you listened to Hair. Like, I ran that LP into the ground. Me too.

Gilbert Cruz: Well, of course, in the years since then, besides cast recordings, which we're going to get into in a little bit, the only way to actually experience theater live was to go and see it live. For decades, it was, yes. There were some live broadcasts, but for the most part, it disappeared because there was this assumption in the industry that having a live capture would cannibalize a live show. So nobody would go see something live if they could just rent the VHS or the DVD or stream it. And that, I think, has been proven wrong.

Gilbert Cruz: What would you say was the big story that changed that? Was it Hamilton or was it before Hamilton?

Jesse Green: I would say it's Hamilton. I am curious, since you were avid theater enthusiast during this time, was it just, it was like, if you don't see it live and you don't have a cast recording, that's it. Like, there's no other way to experience. For the most part, yes. It sort of feels like how it used to be with movies decades ago. Like, if you didn't catch a movie in a theater before, VHS beta, DVD, etc., You could go a decade without seeing it unless you caught it on late night TV, Channel 11 or what have you.

Gilbert Cruz: Well, I think it's important to say that recording a cast album is very expensive because you also have to buy in everybody. I mean, I think usually the price that's given now to record a cast album is between $200,000 and $700,000, which is quite a bit of cash. But for a lot of producers, even if the show wasn't doing well, having a cast of men that you were able to license the show and that would bring in money down the line, the show would stay alive. So it was worth spending that money and then hope for the best that it would keep interest going. And very often it did happen, actually.

Gilbert Cruz: But capturing a show live, I mean, the expenses multiply. Right. Even more if you want something decent. And there was also this mentality. So there were all these obstacles. So all we had were cast albums for the most part. Another thing, I mean, this is kind of dated, but when you interview actors, Broadway performers, I think 100% of them refer to seeing the Tony Awards show. Yes. As the way they knew that they had to be a performer. Please talk a little bit about this.

Jesse Green: Well, you know, I don't know whether that's a good thing. Generally. But it is a true thing. But it is a true thing. I mean, there are obviously economically there's too many actors and not enough shows. But nevertheless, it is an amazing way to see what's going on and to feel in a way part of it, just like any awards show can be.

Gilbert Cruz: Mama who bore me. Mama who gave me. Mama the angels who made me so sad. You're seeing actual live staged numbers, not just clips. One day more! One more day to the revolution, we will nip it in the bud. And often they are staged by the director of the show himself or herself, so they have incredible authenticity to the staged experience.

Gilbert Cruz: I believe I'd hug inside of me I have been very moved, even having seen the show, some of the shows two or three times, to see them again in that format and also to think about what it would mean to be a young person experiencing some pretty quality stuff in that way. If you talk to musical theater performers now, I would say half of them will mention that performance at the Tonys. I guarantee you, it comes up so often in interviews. Oh, yeah, I saw that. And then I knew, you know, I was nine and I knew that was going to be my life. I mean, it's wild. I would say if there's one that influenced the destinies of so many actors.

Gilbert Cruz: And all of them are available quite easily on YouTube and places like that. So it would be irresponsible not to talk about how the pandemic changed. the industry's appetite for releasing some of the stuff via streaming or other media, and the audience's expectations that these things would be made available. Could you sort of take us back to that terrible, terrible time and talk about, you know, what changed and what good came out of it for people who love theater?

Jesse Green: Well, two things were going on at once. One is that people, you could see the work of people anywhere in the world suddenly, which even if you lived in New York you really could not do that. And anyone in the world who wanted to create something theatrical could do so in this limited format and have it seen. So it was really for me it was kind of a vibrant time not always an excellent time but a vibrant time.

Gilbert Cruz: And I learned a lot about what was going on in the world, particularly in musicals. And then, like, you could see things that now or then you would never see live because they couldn't happen. I'd like to propose a toast. Here's to the ladies who lunch Everybody laugh Meryl Streep, Audra McDonald, and Christine Baranski singing The Ladies Who Lunch. I was just thinking about this. Another reason not to move Another vodka stinker You're never going to have that on a stage. You couldn't afford those women. And if you could, it would be for three days.

Gilbert Cruz: This was the 90th celebration of Stephen Sondheim's 90th birthday that was live streamed in April of 2020 or thereabouts. Right. And I believe it's still available today. It totally is. I was watching it before this conversation of ours. Anyway, that was how the change began. And it's because people were terrified we would have no live theater. And they quickly developed ways of creating a substitute. Yeah, I think we also saw the emergence of people who were trying to create specifically for live streaming, trying to do live theater and streaming it. And I think we saw the emergence of people like Josh Gelb, who created theater in quarantine. he was putting on plays in a closet in his village apartment, a really small closet too, not a walk-in closet, a real East Village closet. It was two foot by four foot by eight foot tall.

Gilbert Cruz: Incredibly resourceful, and he would act live. And he continues to do that, and his projects have become more and more ambitious. And that, to me, was the birth of a real talent, someone who really changed things in theater. So I think for people who were open to that and thinking, OK, well, theater will come back, but maybe theater can be something else. Yeah, unfortunately, the something else a little too often in that period was magicians. You don't like magicians? Well, they're not high on my list, but they are above mimes. OK. Sorry, French. but it was something you could you know with a certain amount of cleverness you could do virtually and some of them were quite good I have to say but then it became a thing because theaters were desperate to have some kind of show they could do that was not very expensive to produce and other than like a sod and half lady you know what does it cost to do a magic show so there were I saw a ton of them in that year and a half or whatever but there were also amazing experiments that were as good as any live stage production I've seen that would come out of the desperation of theaters to have content.

Gilbert Cruz: They would not be able to do it live before an audience, but they would often do it as if live. So it was not a movie. It was not a television show. It was theater. It was just theater where the audience wasn't actually in the room. And also a lot of the actors basically gave their time to do it because they were also desperate to work. You know, what are they doing? They're doing their, you know, their ballet bar in their apartment. That's all they can do.

Gilbert Cruz: It is interesting because I remember seeing during the pandemic, the National Theater put on production of Romeo and Juliet, I believe, starring Jesse Buckley and Josh O'Connor. Yes. Those reminded me later, something that we haven't really touched on, but we've had PBS's great performances, right? There's always been that little, through public media or what have you, that little peek into some of these stage performances. Britain has its national theater has become sort of a robust sort of streaming home for some of these productions.

Gilbert Cruz: You know, I'm wondering now, outside of national tours, you take a big trip to Broadway and spend a lot of money. You go to your local regional theater. What do you think are some of the most exciting ways that people can experience theater at home? I think the audio domain. I mean, audiobooks have long been very popular. And when you see a company that like Audible, really invest in theater because it's not just that they do audio productions. They put on the productions live on stage and then you can access them, you know, in an audio format.

Gilbert Cruz: And there's one that just came out with Hugh Jackman. We saw it in the spring. Sexual misconduct of the middle classes? Correct, with Ella Beatty and Hugh Jackman. And now, actually, I was just listening to it yesterday and it really works in an audio format. Audible had, I think, its first Tony-nominated show, Dead Outlaw, just this past season. That is a big move for this company. And I really like that they're not just taking from theater, they're also giving to theater by producing all those shows.

Gilbert Cruz: I do want to, recently I've become aware, I'm not a TikTok follower generally, But there's a huge musical theater world on TikTok, not just the things you might expect. But something I love is people are recreating for themselves in their own bedrooms or, you know, in the alley behind their apartment or some moment that is available from a live clip of a Broadway show. And so you'll find there's one in which Jonathan Groff, who's in this Broadway show just in time, is trying to learn a dance. He's not a dancer exactly, but he's a hard worker and he gets it. And that little clip is then interpreted by hundreds of people trying to do the same dance.

Gilbert Cruz: And it reminds me of my writing down the lyrics to A Little Night Music, the need and the power of putting that art form into your own body in your own home. And there's a bunch of them. There's some from The Great Gatsby. There's some from Chicago. Famous. There's a great one from Chicago. So TikTok is another one.

Gilbert Cruz: Well, I think the fan art has also really exploded. Because if you're watching this stuff on YouTube or on TikTok, I mean, usually it's a two-way street. And I would say the show that was really a turning point for that was Be More Chill. because Be More Chill had a very short run in a New Jersey theater in 2015, I believe. But they did manage to make a cast album, and that cast album started picking up streams. And that led to an off-Broadway run in 2017. And then that led to a Broadway run that was entirely fan-fueled, and people would travel from all over the country and actually the world to see that show.

Gilbert Cruz: That's something that happened with the musical Six, the musical about the six wives of Henry VIII trying to, in a competition, to see who had the worst luck at his hands. Listen up, let me tell you a story A story that you think you've heard before We know you know I need to bring in our faces A mixtape almost, and by the time I saw it, pre-Broadway in Chicago, the audience was full of people already singing the songs. Which, interestingly, that used to be the case before the Beatles, let's say. When pop music was theater music and theater music was pop music, people wouldn't already know the songs when they came to see the show because they'd been recorded by 10, 12, 15 people and were on the radio all the time. That completely disappeared, and now it's coming back in a different form.

Gilbert Cruz: Okay, let's take a short break and when we come back we're going to talk about cast albums i know you both have some recommendations we'll be right back

Gilbert Cruz: So I think that three of us would agree that the cast album is a gateway drug for most people, right? Particularly people who become sort of like true Broadway fans. And not to keep going back to the pandemic, but during the first month or two of that time when all of live theater was shut down, you, Jesse, and our former critic Ben Brantley did a great and a very useful starter guide to cast albums. Okay, we were desperate. We were all desperate. I remember saying to the theater editor, that's a great idea. Do it. Let's do it right now. We need stuff. And I thought that was it was very helpful to me, who still will never know as many cast albums as the two of you. You had a lot of recommendations for readers then. I'd love to dig more just into that concept. Like, what do you think are some good ones to start with? And what are some of your favorites?

Jesse Green: Well, if you're actually starting from zero, I think any way in that interests you is the way to go. But let's say you know something about it and you're looking for what are the greats, whether contemporary or classic, we could call them. I think you can't go wrong. And a lot of people have not gone wrong with Chicago. I'm now talking about the original Broadway cast recording. This is.

Gilbert Cruz: Are you disagreeing? No, no, no. Chicago is about two women in 1920s Chicago who aim to become stars by becoming murderers. So I took the shotgun off the wall and I fired two warning shots into his head. He had it coming. He had it coming. He only had himself for the air.

Gilbert Cruz: And it's, you know, about the American justice system. Ha, ha, ha, ha. So funny. It's so funny, but it is brilliantly snarky and satirical. And every single song. See, one of the things I love in a cast album is when there are no duds. I don't think Chicago has a single dud. No, it's a perfect show. Yeah. And it's a perfect show. I mean, they canned a lot of the songs that they wrote, and they whittled it down to the ones that were, and it just jumps off. And that's why it's a perfect show. Yes, exactly. Well, they did the work.

Gilbert Cruz: So Chicago's a great start. To me, the most romantic musical of all time and on record is a very little-known one these days called The Most Happy Fellow. Well I want to be wanted Need to be needed And I admit it This is by Frank Lesser who also wrote Guys and Dolls but had amazing inner ear It's in the style of an opera almost, but it's definitely musical theater, just long musical theater. And it's about a mail-order bride. It's about an old guy who has a grape farm in California who's too shy, and he invites this waitress he meets in San Francisco to come visit him and switches the picture so that she thinks he's going to be this hunky young worker.

Gilbert Cruz: I'm scared to look in your eye and shake your hand. Hello. I'm scared you slap on my face and you go. Is that a catfishing musical? Is that what that is? Well, yes, oddly enough. I hadn't thought of it that way, but well before its time. Hairspray. Good morning, Baltimore. There's the flasher who lives next door. Can't go wrong with Hairspray. Again, is there a dud on Hairspray? No, there's no dud in Hairspray. Because the world keeps spinning round and round. And my heart's keeping time to the speed of the sound.

Gilbert Cruz: I was lost till I heard the drums. Then I found my way. Cause you can't stop the beat ever since it's over. I can't believe I'm agreeing with everything you sang so far. This is not good podcasting. You guys need to disagree. Well, maybe you need to do one because I'll disagree with that. Continue. No, no, no. Go ahead, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth Vincentelli: What are some of your all-time cast recordings? Classics. Classics. I am a huge fan of the Leonard Bernstein and Comden and Green collaborations. I would say, on the town and, okay, this is very divisive, but I like the cast album and the movie soundtrack. They changed a lot of the score for the movie. And of course, the purists are like, ah, no, I like them both. I do, too. I'll go with you there. And then I would say Gypsy. You'll be swell. You'll be great. Gonna have the whole world on a plate.

Gilbert Cruz: Honey, everything's coming up roses. I have one note about Gypsy, but we'll leave it alone. Maybe a little note. I love Company. Company is a Stevenson musical about Bobby, who's a bachelor, whose married friends are always pressuring him to basically find someone and pair up. And he's very torn about it. And that's it, really. It's a series of little vignettes about him and his friends. Somebody make me come through. I'll always be there, as frightened as you, to help us survive. Being alive. Being alive.

Gilbert Cruz: Which recording, now that there have been so many productions? I have, you know, I don't actually, I'll take whichever comes first. The original cast. Original cast, yes. And also, of course, because of the Pennebaker documentary about the recording of the original cast. Yeah, so can we take a detour? I'm sorry to take a detour here, but it feels like this is one of the most famous, the most famous theater documentary of all time. Yes, and the best. Is it perhaps the only? Is it the only one? Yes, that's where I was going. Well, there's others. Well, it's the only one about the making of a cast album that I'm aware of. But it is, whether it was the only or not, it is amazing. So it's his original cast album, Company. It's D.A. Pennebaker, who worked on a Bob Dylan documentary. He later worked on The War Room, done a million documentaries. And it was essentially recording all of these people making the cast recordings company. there's a famous scene of... Another long exhausting day. See, I'm just proving every point. A thousand dollars. Wrong! Elaine Stritch getting progressively angrier and drunker as she can't sing her song. Correct. Oh, shut up!

Gilbert Cruz: And this was all probably planned on her part, in my opinion. Oh, okay. I would say also another big favorite for me is Jesus Christ Superstar. Go to, we'll never get tired of it. I never thought I'd come to this. What's it all about? Say more because Jesse is making some faces over here. Well, Jesus Christ Superstar is a peak of musical theater. In his book, Andrew Lloyd Webber, the way he talks highly, by the way, if you can go to the theater, read Andrew Lloyd Webber's autobiography. Oh, for God's sake, that is not the top choice. Listen, it's 700 pages of insane drama, self-aggrandizing drama. The same drama is the perfect description of Jesus Christ Superstar.

Gilbert Cruz: Can I admit something terrible? The only version of Jesus Christ Superstar I've ever listened to or heard was the one that NBC did when they were doing live musicals. With John Legend? With John Legend, yes. That was unfortunate. So as a result, I could never listen to it again because that was not the best. We didn't mention those musicals, which were a pandemic kind of experience. Yes, the live ones. I'd love to use those as sort of a transition to talk about sort of full performances. You know, I have a child. He's a preteen. And as many kids of his generation, he went through a Hamilton face. He streamed the hell out of it on Spotify. Eventually, it came to Disney Plus. And he watched it over and over and over again. We had a copy of the sort of deluxe lyric book that is annotated. and he would read the lyrics while he was listening or read the lyrics while he was.

Gilbert Cruz: And then we eventually went to see it on stage and it was still as good as he thought it would be because he had essentially memorized the entire thing before going to see it. He was in a production of the SpongeBob SquarePants musical and he was able to see the Ethan Slater production on Amazon Prime in the months leading up to actually having to perform one of those roles. And I feel like there is a way in which, you know, watching some of this stuff, as you said before, doesn't cut you off from enthusiasm for wanting to see it live. Seeing Waitress on HBO and listening to that recording, if it comes back, people are still going to want to see that. Yeah, I think it's pretty obvious that those captures make people want to see the shows more, not less.

Gilbert Cruz: That really is going to lead to a very deep rethink of the industry, I think. And I think we need to talk about something very important, actually. The George Clooney capture of good night and good luck just dropped on Amazon. There is a great and perhaps decisive battle to be fought against ignorance, intolerance, indifference. So George Clooney did a stage adaptation on Broadway of his own movie, Good Night and Good Luck, that came out in 2005. And so the question is a very simple one. Not what power unchecked can do. We have seen that answer. No. The question is, what are you prepared to do? Except in the Broadway version, he was playing the part of Edward Murrow, that he didn't play that part in the film. Good night. And good luck. It was a huge hit on Broadway. The ticket prices were astronomical. And they actually did a live broadcast, they live streamed the penultimate performance on CNN. When not only you had to be there, it was appointment theater. And now, actually, now you can see it on demand. It is a huge deal, I think. And I actually watched it yesterday, and it's a very good capture. because the capture director worked very well with the David Cromer staging. It's a very handsome capture, and I think it's going to do great for this particular property.

Gilbert Cruz: And we've been talking a lot about musicals, but this is a play about a very serious and dark subject that was quite successful on stage, and I was curious how it was going to work on film because a lot of it takes place on screens. It takes place in a television studio where Edward R. Murrow is broadcasting his CBS news show and responding to the communist witch hunts. How did it work? I think it works really well because there's a really good balance of close ups, for instance, which is a very cinematic thing that you don't. Well, you don't get it the same way on stage where you get a more like bird's eye view of the whole thing. and then they pull out at very judicious moments because there's a lot of projections and use of video in the show.

Gilbert Cruz: We were just talking about that. And I think it works really well as this hybrid of film theater. And again, I feel that we're coming full circle because the theater on television used to be big in the 50s and 60s where people were writing, So playwrights were writing specifically for that medium. And then it disappeared. And now maybe it's coming back. I would love to see that. Sort of like Rod Serling doing Requiem for a Heavyweight or John Frankenheimer directing live theater. God. Yeah. I come prepared. Okay. I come prepared.

Gilbert Cruz: What are some other recommendations if you have them on things, theater that people can watch? Well, the Andrew Scott Vanya, which I believe it's still available from National Theater Live. I know. Yeah. I love life. I love being alive. As for my personal life, I mean, there is absolutely nothing in it that is in the slightest bit good. It was a great production and it a great capture as well I would say I a big fan of Heather The Musical And there's actually a pretty good capture of a British production that used to be on Roku. May have migrated somewhere else, but it's around. We haven't talked too much about movie versions of musicals, largely because many of them are so bad. But one I particularly love is Little Shop of Horrors. Does it have to be human? Does it have to be mine? Where am I supposed to get it? Rick Moranis. Rick Moranis. Yes. Frank Oz directed. Yeah. Of that period, it's one of the few that's excellent. It's so good.

Gilbert Cruz: We watched it at home. We listened to Little Shop of Horrors on vinyl a bunch, and then we watched the film first. You are the perfect example of what we're talking about. It's not just that this kind of engagement in other forms of theater does not eat into the ticket sales. It enhances the experience when you do go. This is what we did. You're absolutely right, because we listened to it on record, even though it's the 21st century. We watched the film. I showed my son the film version, and then he and his uncle went to see it off Broadway or wherever it is, right on 40-whatever street. So he got to experience it in all three versions. I think that's always been the way, and it's great that there's now more ways for that to be the way.

Gilbert Cruz: What are some other—we could have a whole episode on great movie musicals, but I would just love to hear some of your favorites. The best movie musicals are generally not made from Broadway shows. Singing in the Rain, would you agree? Van Wagon. Right. So with that proviso, what do you think of Chicago? I'm a little scared to say it because I'm sitting right near you. Anything directed by Rob Marshall, that's what you're saying? Not a fan of Chicago because of the editing, which I think does a huge disservice to the dancing. Yeah, no, you're right. So I'm not a fan of chopping off body parts and eating. No, really, I heard you were. I know, I know. It's only in my other life as a serial killer of shows. Aren't we all? Okay, on that high note, let's take another short break. And when we return, we're going to play a little theater game.

Gilbert Cruz: Okay, so now we've come to the last act of the show, and it is, as always, a game. Jesse and Elizabeth, I have four rounds of theater-related questions for you. Elizabeth, you seem like you don't want to participate. No, I do. I do. But it's I know I'm going to fail unless there's a Heather's question. The point here is not to win. The point here is to have fun. However, someone will win and someone will win something, an actual thing that I'm going to give that person at the end of this quiz. Are we ready? Ready? Yes. The first round is titled Strike Up the Band. I'm going to play you a clip from a famous musical overture. You name the show. First. Elizabeth. That's Jesus Christ Superstar. Jesus Christ Superstar. That is correct. I'm proud that I didn't know it. Next one. Jesse. That's The Producers. The Producers is correct. Correct. Very good. Next one. Jesse. Merrily we roll along. That is correct. Final question in this round. Honestly, neither of you are going to get this. No, no, no. It is October. So we have chosen the overture from the musical Carrie. Oh, whoa. Seven people could have gotten that in the world. Next round. This is Move Curtain Upwards, we're calling this one, a.k.a. the MCU round. I'm going to play you a clip, and you tell me what actor from the Marvel Cinematic Universe is performing. Oh, no, I'm out. This is a little bit. You are not out. You are in. Get your hand on that buzzer. All right. All right. Let's go. First one. There's a bright golden haze on the meadow. Jesse. Actor. Hugh Jackman. That is correct. Hugh Jackman. I actually knew that one, but you were faster. That was Hugh Jackman, who has played Wolverine in Oklahoma. Next. To be or not to be. That is the question. Who played Hamlet? Everyone played Hamlet. But who from the MCU played Hamlet? Jesse. Scissor man. Incorrect. The guy who plays Loki. Incorrect. That is Tom Hiddleston. Good guess. This is Benedict Cumberbatch, who plays Doctor Strange in the MCU films in Hamlet. For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come when we have shuffled off this mortal coil must give us pause. Not Scissorman? Not Scissorman. Everyone's favorite superhero. All right, final question in this round. A customer! Oh, wait! Watch your rush, watch your hurry. You gave me such a fright. I thought you was a downstop a minute. We