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--:-- Steven Bartlett: Epstein and Trump were close. Sorry, Donald, just a fact. And when Elon Musk tweets Trump's on the list, and a few days later, there is no list. It begs questions. So they dangled this in order to get votes, and they lied to people. And we're only six months in, and the vandalization that he's done, pushing the boundaries on the rule of law, this is darkness.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Really? Because I hear this every election cycle.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: No, it's a dangerous game, and America is struggling, and I really worry about our democracy, but Trump is likely to lose power unless they can rig the game.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Governor Gavin Newsom, are you going to try and become the next president of the United States? Governor of California. Gavin Newsom. Gavin Newsom. Who is the real Gavin Newsom? I think most people see me as sort of a slick guy, grew up with a trust fund. But I didn't come from any wealth. Like my mom was a single mom. She was working two, three jobs. She ran out of her own bedroom, sacrificed everything for two kids. And I was going nowhere academically, but she never gave up on me. And as your sort of political career starts to accelerate, she was diagnosed with breast cancer. Yeah, and she was in so much pain, suffering, she's going to do an assisted suicide. And I was holding her hand, and she's... And her last breath. But look, everything that finds the best of me, grit, hard work, is reflected in her. And that led to me sitting here with you as governor of California in politics.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: He's an incompetent governor. Look at the job he's doing. He's a stone-cold liar.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: There's always conflict between you and Trump.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: I think he enjoys sparring with me. I know he thrives on it, but I'd be lying if I didn't say it. Every time I have a conversation, it's unbelievably cordial. He says, you need anything? Call me. Including the night before he quote-unquote federalized the National Guard, but then calls me news. He wants to take me out. Do you think he's going to try and stay in power? So I don't think I'm exaggerating, but when people close to Donald Trump send the governor of California, hey, they're not being around.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us, and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24 people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's a promise I'm going to make to you. I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. Thank you.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Governor Gavin Newsom, can you quite believe your life? You're running one of the most consequential states in America, arguably the most consequential state in America. But also I read that it's the fourth highest GDP in the world. It's always in the headlines. There's always conflict between you and Trump. I just wanted to start with this question. Can you believe your life?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: If you talk to my 10-year-old self, this is impossible. Couldn't have even dreamt it. I don't know if it was a dream or a nightmare at 10. I mean, I'm not sure this is what I wanted at 10. I'm not sure I wanted this at 20 or even 30.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: And I know you're going to continue to shoulder roll what I'm going to say, but many of the bookmakers, the odds have you as being the next president of the United States in 2028. I'm going to throw that. I know you're going to shoulder roll it and tell me California.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Well, that's surreal. I mean, that's ridiculous. I mean, that's something that even in those higher moments, not low moments, where I may have had a little bit more confidence, a million years would never imagine that I would be at this moment. And yeah, that creates a lot of humility, a lot of grace around that. I mean, the idea that you're even in the conversation, I know that sounds rote and cliched, a little humble brag. The fact that I'm in the conversation is extraordinary. Is it a reality? I don't know. I mean, that's fate will determine.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: I totally understand that. But I want to just get clear on one thing, which is you would be honored to play the role as president of the United States if and when that opportunity called or presented itself.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah. I mean, I don't know about playing the role, but if the moment meets you and you meet the moment, if you can express with congruency the why, and you can do it without the pretense, and you can do it with authenticity, and you truly believe that you add value against others that may be lined up. Yeah. But I won't go through the motion. I don't need to be something to do something. For me, you've got to feel it. It's got to be in my core, my soul. It's got to be a burning need and desire to be accountable and to reflect the moment and reflect the aspirations and the dreams of millions and millions of people and have enough confidence that you feel you can deliver in that respect.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Do you think you could deliver in that respect?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: You know, increasingly, which is strange. I don't know that I could have said that a few years ago. I mean that. I feel like things for me have radically changed and we can get into why. I mean, I've gone through, they're working on the seventh recall against me right now. I went through a recall process. I've been on the receiving end of a national effort to try to do everything to undermine what I'm doing. And going up against Trump and Trumpism and the surround sound and these propaganda networks 24-7, I'm more resolved now. I mean, in an intense way, ways I'm discovering myself in this process. I'm on the other side of where I ever expected to be, even a year ago. And I feel deeply accountable and deeply responsible and deeply motivated. I don't know where that takes me, but I know I have a responsibility over the next 18 months, and I'm going to run the 110-yard dash. I'm not going to run the 90-yard dash on the way out of here. And so that's what I know. I've got a sell-by date, and I'm going to put everything on the line.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Let's get into it then in terms of your early context and your childhood, because I think you have to understand that to understand the person and the complexities of the person that I'm sat in front of today. So can you give me the specifics of your earliest context?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: You know, I think it's shaped like so many people watching. I mean, how many of us, over half of us, have similar experiences of a 19-year-old who's pregnant with her firstborn, me. And a few years later, she's on her own with two kids. She came from no wealth, no real privilege. Her father committed suicide, was a prisoner of war, coming out of World War II. She struggled with her own identity, her own confidence. She struggled raising two kids. My father, who left us but not in disgrace, who was an extraordinary figure but an elusive figure growing up, and sort of marked so much of my early childhood as sort of longing and trying to connect. But the anchor, the rock, was this rock star single mom. And everything defines the best of me and the worst of me. This notion of grit, hard work, you've got to manifest, nothing's going to be handed to you, is reflected in her. At the same time, a lot of the anxiety and fear, sense of loneliness. I mean, she was a very lonely person.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Tessa.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah, Tessa passed away almost two decades ago. And I'm now older than she was when she passed away. And I just, I never fully appreciated her to the degree I do now as a father, as a mother struggling with not only herself, just trying to be a good mother, trying to have a career, a life, but also struggling to support her kids and support a kid, in this case, me, who was struggling in every way, particularly with pretty severe learning disabilities, with self-esteem, and never fully appreciated her sacrifice.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Give me the color on the learning disabilities, because someone looks at you, someone so accomplished in both business and in politics, and you say that you had learning difficulties as a child.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: I mean, I was a guy in the back of the class. I was a guy down. I was a guy soaking wet, sweating. I was a guy shaking underneath, not physically shaking. Desperate not to be called on in the class. I'm someone who still can't read a speech.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: You're in the wrong business, I think, politics. You can't read a speech.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: You could do a teleprompter, but you'll never see me. You haven't seen me go up and down looking at a speech. I can't. I still struggle to read. If I read, I have to underline everything. I have to organize everything through not only underlining, highlighting, and then I go back and reread what I underlined in order to understand it. Once I understand it, boy, I understand it. I mean, then it becomes part of who I am, which is the other side of dyslexia. But I was a guy that was going nowhere academically. I was just that kid. And I had a sister that was the exact opposite. She was getting 1380 on her SATs. I was getting 960. Everything was easy for her. And so that contrast and that anxiety that came from that contrast and the struggle that my mom had of trying to work with me. That marked so much of my memories and decades of my life.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: And at that early age, sub 10, what did you think of yourself? What was your self-perception, self-image?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: The thing that I don't think I've shared is the thing that is most indelible in my life when my mother was struggling with me. And I'll never forget it. And I don't recall if I responded to her at the time, but it's marked half a century of my life when she said, because I couldn't, I was just giving up. I couldn't read this chapter or whatever it was. She said, "It's okay to be average." And I think about that all the time, man. I mean, and I forgive her, I think, for that. I think because she was struggling with me, but that's a hell of a thing to say to a kid. And I think she was just saying, "It's okay. You don't have to be your sister. You're not your dad. You'll never be that person." I loved her deeply and I'm here because of her, but that shapes a lot of the early person. And it's shaped who I've become because I've done everything in my power to overcompensate for the struggle and for that mindset where I could have easily believed that and I could have easily become that.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: In terms of money in the home, I sometimes think of when I think about my own childhood, money was almost this other person. It's funny, we talk about attachment styles and we say some people have like this avoidant attachment style, this anxious attachment style, this secure attachment style. And I think of money in the same way. It's in homes, it's a person. Sometimes it's distant and never there. Sometimes it's causing the argument. What was money in your household? Like what was the relationship that you'd formed with it?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Well, I had an interesting experience with money because we didn't come from any wealth, but my father, his relationships were attached to extraordinary wealth, abundance of wealth. His closest friends in the world were some of the richest families in the world. And he, while he didn't have tremendous amount of wealth himself, he led a very wealthy lifestyle. Meanwhile, my mom and I and my sister were there doing our Swanson's frozen food, our Kraft macaroni and cheese. But money was always the source of the stress because he didn't have much to give her. She didn't have much, period. So she was working two, three jobs. And when I say two, three jobs, I mean literally two, three jobs. We had guests always living at the house. I didn't understand what guests living at the house meant. She moved out of her own bedroom to rent out the bedroom. If you wanted something, I had a paper route, worked for Jeff Hicks Construction. If you want a basketball hoop, you're going to have to work for it. There was nothing handed, nothing given. And so she was grinding. She was working as a part-time waitress. I got in the restaurant business. I was a busboy. And there's some moments that changed my life there that I'll never, ever, ever forget. And so money was a source of stress, but also some evil in the context of too much and seeing the abundance with people I knew, with trust funds, with the relationship to money, where they lost their motivation, they lost their purpose, their meaning, their mission. And so when I started getting into business, it was never about making money. It was about making a difference. It was about building something, a brand. It was about adding some value. And that pursuit, I think, created a mindset where the businesses actually really thrived because it wasn't about the money. It was about something more important. It was bigger than that. And so my relationship to money in that respect really became a gift, a guide in terms of my entrepreneurial pursuits. Dyslexia certainly was the greatest gift in relationship to the entrepreneurial suits. And that led to this, led to me sitting here with you as governor of California in politics.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: And when did you find out you had dyslexia? Because I read that your mother...
--:-- Gavin Newsom: She didn't tell me.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: And I wonder, I think about this because I've got a couple of kids that are struggling. And we made the mistake with one of them to tell them, "Yeah, I think you got it," and now they use it as a crutch. And she never wanted it as a crutch. She never told me.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: She said, I found out about it. I was home early one day, came back from school. And I don't know why, I ended up in her room. And I'm looking, she's got a little desk and there's a file open. And I'm like, looking through files. And then I saw the word dyslexia. I'm like, "The hell is this?" And I remember she got home. I said, "Mom, what is this?" And she goes, "Put that away." I'm like, "What is it?" She goes, "No." And we had this conversation. She said, "I didn't really want to talk to you about it. You've been struggling with it." I said, "I know. I can't read. I'm stupid, Mom." And she said, "No, you're not stupid. We're working through all that." And she just didn't want to create the stigma. She didn't want me to use this as a crutch, as an excuse. I think, and I'm angry back to the sort of dialect in my own brain about good, bad. I appreciated that because it was an excuse, not a victim. Decisions, not conditions, term our fate and future. This notion that we can shape things, that I wasn't stigmatized in that respect. So I can make excuses around it. I had to work around it. I had to work through it. And I think that was the path she chose. And I'm in many ways grateful that she did.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Were you bullied by other children?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah, we had Baltimore Street. I told the president this too. Speaking of Trump, we were talking a few weeks ago and he goes, "Hey, this 'Newscum' thing, because he calls me 'Gavin Newscum.' Pretty original, right?" I said, "It's not, Mr. President, it's not particularly original." And he goes, "What do you mean?" I said, "Well, there was the bully on Baltimore Street in Corte Madera, California, used to call me 'Newscum.'" He goes, "Ah, hey, well, you know, whatever." I said, "Good. I mean, he was 7, 8, or 9. You're 79, Mr. President." I told him that, too. And he moved immediately off on another topic. So, I was the bowl cut guy. The hair, the Dutch boy look. You know, sort of American, iconic American brand. And it was easy to see why I might have been bullied. I've got a picture here. Look at me. Isn't that great? So you get the haircut. You get the vibe. This is my father trying to insert. So Irish Catholic family. My dad went to Catholic schools, and so by definition, I went to Catholic school. My mother, who loved the sailor outfits, knee-high black socks. Yeah, you're likely to get bullied going on the bus. It's not the best cut.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: We've all been on a journey with our haircuts. It's good. When I hear your story and the context you grew up in with your mother, with the bullying, with the challenges at school, with the dad that's away, and I know the stats around young boys that grow up in particular that don't have a father figure at home. That for me is a perfect recipe for small t, maybe big t trauma in some capacity. Later in your life, you talked about having challenges with alcohol.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah. Oh yeah. No.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: And I wondered if that picture, that's part of the same picture, which is putting the mask on various forms of escapism.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah. No, a hundred percent. Well, look, I mean, my grandfather that took his life was an alcoholic. And my mother struggled a little bit and it was more self-medicating for me. I started discovering that as well. Of course, look, I got in the wine business. So I'm neatly attracted to the business side of it, opened a wine store right out of college, opened a number of restaurants, had seven or eight restaurants, have four wineries as I speak today. So wine became ubiquitous in my life. It's also my connection back to my dad, which is a whole other journey.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: And you started that business in 1992, which was the year I was born. And as I sit here 32 years later, the business still exists. You've placed it into a trust. It still exists. And it grew to about 22 or 4 businesses at peak, about 1,000 employees at peak. Came from that one business.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: I was the only full-time employee for almost two years. I'll tell you, just the greatest training for politics and life, just opening your own business, small business. And those were some special days. And I went from that to a restaurant up the block. A few years later, a hotel, a winery, now four wineries. We had five or six hotels and nine restaurants at peak, and businesses are still around.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: I was reading that you had this sort of scheme where you gave employees $500 for a magical moment award.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Well, it was a failure award.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: A failure award. And then it became my sister took over because I got into politics, and she said, "I don't like this failure framework." I said, "Well, I love failure. I'm good at it. Dyslexics are the best at it." I mean, there's nothing linear about our lives. It's fail forward fast. Miss 100% of shots you don't take. So you were giving employees $500 if they failed?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah, I had a great, just a very brief example. So I had a little hotel up in Squaw Valley, Lake Tahoe area, and a lot of mosquitoes during the summer months. It's an old motel built for the Winter Olympics, the 1960 Winter Olympics, built in 1959 for the delegates. It was supposed to be torn down. It was sort of patched together and we held it together, but it had no air conditioning. So you'd keep the doors open, you keep the windows open, but in the summer, the mosquitoes came and drove the guests crazy. So we had this night clerk, you know, those crazy night clerks come in. And he was getting complaints all the time about the mosquitoes. And he, on his own, decided one day to go before he went to work, get in at 11 o'clock at night. And he bought a bunch of catfish at the store because there's a bunch of ponds around the business. And he figured that's where all the mosquitoes are starting. So the catfish will eat the larva of the mosquitoes and he'd solve the problem. So he just on his own decided to buy a bunch of catfish, dumped them in the ponds all around the hotel. Well, about four in the morning, this engineer calls me, a gruff guy, he says, "The raccoons had a feeding frenzy and ran through the hotel because the doors were open with a bunch of flying fish in their mouths and fish everywhere." And he said, "You got to fire that son of a bitch, this goddamn idiot." And I started laughing, went up there the next morning, met with him. And I said, "This is a magical thing. You tried to solve a goddamn problem." And we created the Failure Award. And I gave the biggest screw-up every single month a bonus. And at the end of the year, we'd put them all together. January screw-up, February screw-up, and we'd have the Failure of the Year Award. And did that for years until my sister said, "We'll call it the Magical Moment Award." But it was about initiative, taking initiative, taking responsibility, taking ownership, trying new things, seeing what works, iteration, entrepreneurial mindset. It's not linear. It's thinking creatively outside the box. It's what a dyslexic by definition has to do. And that's what I thought a successful business needed to do. And it literally empowered our employees. They loved it because they felt seen and heard.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: And safe, I guess.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: And safe. Because they were like, as long as they do it with... No one's jumping off cliffs here. We're not encouraging recklessness, but risk-taking. And it literally allowed the business not just to survive, but to start to thrive in ways I could never have imagined.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: I think that's really important. It's just such an important lesson to so many business owners, especially in these changing times where everything's moving so quickly in AI and technology that most people are incentivized just to business as usual. Protect our position if we're successful or to prolong convention or whatever that might mean. But businesses that adopt that approach clearly have an edge in these rapidly changing times.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah, no. And look, I mean, back to just, I remember there was a book, Tom Peters wrote called *The Pursuit of Wow*. I mean, if there was one book that just hit me in the core, that sort of expressed everything I wanted to become. He talked about "hire the smile, train the skill." About finding these superstar leaders and developing owners with your leadership team. He talked about, I remember the Ritz Carlton at the time, gave literally cash to the folks that were cleaning the rooms and gave them the ability to use the cash as needed to solve a problem for their customers. They created ownership with frontline employees that were undervalued or devalued. He talked about, I remember, diversity as a business essential. With all the anti-woke, anti-DEI stuff we're dealing with in the United States of America. I mean, from a business perspective, there's a business imperative to advance diversity. But it was Peters decades ago that really created that mindset for me in the business, diversity broadly defined in every way, shape, or form. And so the business became this sort of the pursuit of wow, of awe, of surprise, iteration, of daring, energy. So the core ideologies just kept growing in that space. Restaurants, hotels, wineries, and audacious, adventurous people that wanted to build a brand, build something that was special. It wasn't about money. It was about pursuit of meaning and purpose, moments.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: So why did you leave that and do politics?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: I know. There was a phone, two things happened. I got a phone call. I was running the wine store, closing it up, doing bookkeeping accounting. The warehouse was in my apartment. One night, right before I'm closing up, this guy runs into the store, a very nervous guy. And he's like, "Can you help me? What's a good champagne? I just got to get a call." He's like, "Thank you. Put it away." I'm like, "It's good." He goes, "Can you wrap it?" I said, "Yeah, I got to wrap it." He says, "Thank you, man." About 30 minutes later, the guy comes back. I'm like, "Oh damn. Like I screwed up or something," but he's got this girl with him and he's knocking on the wall. And I opened it back up. He comes in, he goes, "Just want to introduce you to my fiance." And I said, "Wow." He goes, "Well, your champagne, I just asked her to marry me down the block at the Palace of Fine Arts. And we love the champagne. And I just want to say thank you. You were so nice to me." I remember literally sitting there crying after he left. Like, that's everything. This is business, man. It's not a transaction. It's relationships. Talk about moments, magic, man. That's it. To your point, I thought, "This is it. This is my bliss. I'm going to keep doing this forever." And then I got a damn call from the mayor of San Francisco.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Can I just ask you on that question? When that guy came in with his fiance, why was it so meaningful to you? I can literally still see the emotion in your face some 20 years later.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Because what I did had meaning. It mattered in a way I never thought. I thought it was a transaction. I thought he was buying something. I was selling something. It wasn't that, man. It was marking a really important moment in his life. Business changed after that. It wasn't business. It was a different proposition.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Then you get a phone call.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Then you get a phone call and it screwed everything up. Willie Brown says, "Hey, you've been, you know, you just opened this store and I've been reading you were complaining about getting those permits, it was taking too long."
--:-- Steven Bartlett: And who's Willie Brown?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Willie Brown, the mayor of San Francisco, former speaker of the California Assembly, one of the most dynamic, one of the most extraordinary politicians in California history, I would argue American history. I don't say that lightly. Some of the world's great leaders will identify Willie Brown as one of the most transformative political leaders. And so there's a couple articles in the paper about me bitching about permits and parking or something. And he calls me, he goes, "Listen, it's Willie Brown." I'm like, "Oh, Mr. Mayor." He goes, "Hey, come on down next Wednesday. I'm going to put you on the film commission." I'm like, "This is amazing. I'm going to be on the film commission." I'm 20 something years old, got a wine store about to open a restaurant I was working on. And now he's put me on the film commission. I go down to city hall that next Wednesday. It's a group of 20 or 30 people. He's swearing a bunch of people into commissions. And he says, "And Gavin Newsom, you know, opened a wine store down the block, blah, blah, blah. Goes the new chair of the Parking and Traffic Commission." I'm like, "I thought I was going on the film commission." Literally didn't tell me or anyone. I didn't even know what chair meant. And all of a sudden, 26, 27 years old, I'm now the president of San Francisco's Parking and Traffic Commission. He just randomly put me in that position. Inspiration, desperation. I don't know what the hell I was doing. And that was how my political career began. Literally that phone call, that appointment, not to film, but parking and traffic. And that marked a pretty significant moment in hindsight in my life.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: And that was a pivotal moment in your trajectory because you were on course to continue being an entrepreneur probably for the rest of your life.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah, yeah. Could have been somebody.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: So give me the whistle stop between that moment when he places you in this role to here. I know whistle stop is a tough word to use to describe that journey, but what is the whistle stop?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Well, I just, I mean, I put my head down. I learned everything I could. Back to the humility of not knowing what you don't know and recognizing success leaves clues and you can learn from everybody. And I started listening, learning from people, absorbing. And I applied myself as Parking Traffic Commissioner. So much so, nine months later, there was a vacancy on our Board of Supervisors, our city council. And Willie Brown goes, "You know what? You've been doing a pretty decent job here, man. I'm going to give you a shot." So I was a relatively young guy. Now I was the entrepreneur business person on our city council slash Board of Supervisors. And I just hit the ground running. I had by that time opened a few extra businesses. It was a part-time job, but I started to apply myself a little bit more full-time. Had to put together a management group to start managing the business and started applying myself more as a supervisor. Spent almost seven, eight years doing that. And I was a relatively young guy, 33, 34. And Willie Brown was termed out as mayor. And there was an open mayor's seat. And I think at 33, I announced, "Why the hell not?"
--:-- Gavin Newsom: You know, give it a shot. Miss 100% of shots you don't take. And it was, I think, pulling third or fourth and decided to go for it and ran for mayor of San Francisco.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: You became mayor of San Francisco. You had a big impact while you were mayor of San Francisco. One of the things people remember you a lot for is your attitude towards same couples and the Defense of Marriage Act, where you took a quite controversial stance at the time by enabling, I believe it was same-sex couples in the state to get their marriage licenses.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Well, it was, yeah, it was 2004. And my party, the Democratic Party, was not, people were not enthusiastic, weren't even promoting. In fact, they were almost universally opposed to same-sex marriage. And I had an experience in Washington, D.C. Nancy Pelosi, the Speaker of the House, invited me as a new mayor to listen to George Bush give his final State of the Union speech. And I was there with an extra ticket, her husband's ticket. And I was up there in the rafters listening to George Bush give a speech. And in the speech, he's talking about Iraq war. He's talking about a lot of interesting things. And he ends with, it's time for a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage. And everyone starts applauding. And the people around me are applauding. I'm like, Jesus.
--:-- I walked back out, and you had to put your cell phones, early cell phone days. And we're all in line waiting to get our cell phones back. And I remember the couple right next to me, as I'm waiting in line after the speech goes, "That was a hell of a speech the president gave. I'm so sick and tired." I'll never forget these guys say, "I'm so sick and tired of the homosexual agenda." And I'm like, and I literally turned homosexual. It was pejorative. And all I thought about is, man, I want to introduce myself as mayor of San Francisco. I didn't say a word. I hadn't even thought about marriage equality. When I ran for mayor, no one asked me about it. They were talking about domestic partnerships. It was literally that moment that I walked out outside, used that cell phone, called my chief of staff, and said, we need to do something about it. He goes, well, what do you mean? And I said, well, I'm going to come back tomorrow, man. Let's do something.
--:-- So I just got elected mayor and made the decision then, and it unfolded a few weeks later to start marrying same-sex couples. And we married Phyllis Lyon and Del Martin. They'd been together almost 50 years. You talk about faith, love, and devotion, constancy, what marriage should be about. They were denied the ability to marry for only one reason. They were a same-sex couple. And we decided to test the law and was told that people found out and they were not going to allow us to move forward with this marriage. We were going to do a simple ceremonial marriage and then file a lawsuit. Courts opened at nine o'clock. They were going to do a temporary restraining order. I realized I was mayor. I could open City Hall earlier. So we opened City Hall at eight. We married Phyllis and Lyon, Phyllis and Lyon, and Dell rather, and at nine o'clock the courts opened and we waited for the decision and the judge said there's no irreparable harm. There's no reason to have a temporary return, which meant that we could keep marrying same-sex couples, which was not what we had imagined.
--:-- Fast forward what we call the winter of love in San Francisco, not the summer of love, February 2004, 4,036 couples from 46 states in eight countries came to San Francisco to live their lives out loud to say I do in this magical experience that just shook me to the core and changed just my relationship to my party. They were pissed. They were furious. The Democratic Party.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Yes.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: And I got an earful from all of them. People I adored, revered, the same people, the same people said, all of them. I mean, this is the road advice that everyone goes, whatever you do, just do the right thing. Do what you think is right. I remember that's what they, you know, hey, young man, congrats on being married. Just do what you think is right. You do what you think is right. How the hell, who the hell are you? I mean, I remember those, who the hell are you to do what you just did? And it sort of shook my confidence in this whole racket of politics. Like, what am I doing? What did I just do? But it was a hell of a first impression as mayor to do that. And that sort of started my political life.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: When I overlap the dates here, you win your mayoral race in 2003. Your mother was getting sick in the years in the lead up to that, she was diagnosed with breast cancer.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: So you're contending with the woman in your life who's clearly had the most impactful role on shaping who you are and being there for you when the odds were against you and when no one else was. In the lead up, and as your sort of political career starts to accelerate, she is suffering with breast cancer.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: And also suffering with her son being in politics.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: She did not want me to go in politics. In fact, the biggest regret she had is that I was walking down the path that my father was interested in that led to their divorce in the first place. He pursued politics and lost in two elections for state senate and for county supervisor, ironically, the seat that I held. Lost both races, was in debt, was humiliated, defeated, said he had a breakdown, and left. That's when they got divorced. And she saw me walking down his path and she loved seeing me in business. She ended up working for me as our bookkeeper and she saw my passion in the business. She said, why the hell are you getting in politics? Don't do this to yourself. And she literally near deathbed said, just please don't do this. Don't keep doing this. She was really upset that I ran from there.
--:-- Something I think about, there are days where I'm like, she told me so. When you're sitting there facing a recall and you're like, told you so.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: A recall for anyone that doesn't know is...
--:-- Gavin Newsom: No, they just, you know, in the middle of you know, you get a four-year term and two years later they say you and they get a petition and try to get rid of you. And I faced that just second time in a half century in California. I defeated it overwhelmingly, but that was a hell of a thing to experience and to see the nationalization of that recall. I mean, the entire Republican party came out to try to take me out politically. And you think about what your mom said, like she may have been right.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: When did you realize that your mother wasn't going to make it with her breast cancer?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: It was when she went through so often as a case, she fought back. It was in remission. And then boom, it hit again. And it metastasized. And it was, and she did. It was, I'll tell you, this I will never, ever, ever, ever recommend for anyone. And this is just my own personal experience. She called me, left a voice message. Imagine getting this voice message. I was very busy doing all this stuff and obviously not attentive enough to her. And she was making the point. She goes, "Hi, honey, it's your mother. I know you haven't seen me in a while, but next Thursday I won't be around. So you may want to come next Wednesday because it will be my last day." Literally left a voicemail like that. I called my sister. I'm like, what the hell is this? She goes, she's crying. She said she just told me she's going to do an assisted suicide because it's so bad. She left a voicemail.
--:-- And so that next week, I was there. My sister and I were in her room. Doctor comes in, gives her some what turned out to be Oxycontin. I remember like early on, like what are these pills? She had to take those an hour before he got there. She takes them. God is my way going through photos like this, man. That's all she wanted to see. All the old photos of us growing up. And we're sitting there on my sister on the left. I'm on the right. My mom there took these pills waiting for the doctor. And she's going through all these old photo albums of us growing up, talking about these moments.
--:-- Yeah. Come on, man. So, yeah. And, but wanted to be there for her. Doctor comes in and ministers and she starts gasping. My sister runs out. The doctor had already left. And I was like, she's gasping for air. And I'm just sitting there and holding her hand. And she's, and her last breath. And I just sat there. My sister, no one walked in. I felt like for a day, it felt like hours, but it was just probably 10 minutes before someone finally came in just sitting there with my mother who passed away. And not realizing that moment what it represented, what it ultimately meant. I regret that was hard. I don't being there for assisted suicide. By the way, it's proud we changed the law in California. That was probably done illegally. I don't even want to know. And if you want to come after me, come after me. She needed to do it. She was in so much pain, suffering. Now it's legal to do that, but it wasn't at the time when she did it. And so that was a moment.
--:-- And, you know, that was, you know, just became mayor. It was back to just making stupid mistakes, man. You know, you're a brand new mayor. You're overwhelmed. You're trying to figure yourself out. You lose your mom. No excuse. Was in a marriage that was going south.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: What did she say to you when you had no idea that you sat there as she was administered the drugs that took her life? What were those conversations? What do you say to someone in such a situation where it's the last conversations you're having?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: It was, you know, you say the perfunctory things. You know, just know how much you meant to me, how much I love you. And she, all she cared about is just don't forget me. She said that. That was the last word she said. God is my witness. Don't forget me. And one of the things I'm most proud of, my sister, we started through our Plump Jack. We started a foundation. So every year we raise money to cancer research in my mom's name. And we've never forgotten her. But she was someone that could have easily been forgotten, man. She's just, you know, sacrificed everything for two kids. She, you know, she left us her character experience, no money, nothing. I mean, she was just, she struggled her own life and just gave it all to us. And so, you know, those are, and we all have people in our lives like that. What a gift. And, you know, I was blessed.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Were there any words unsaid? And sometimes once people have moved on and you mature as an adult and a man, you see things differently. I mentioned earlier being perhaps way too candid. I imagine after this is over, my folks go, what the hell are you? Who cares? Life's too short. But when I said, you know, when she talked about being average, I didn't confront her on that. That was for me perhaps more than her. It wasn't about me this moment. It was about just, you know, it was so important for her to walk through all these memories. And again, that's what it's about, man. It's memories. Moments. It's about nothing else.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: When you later win the race to become governor of California, do you think about her? Do you wish she could have seen?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah. I wish she could see my four kids. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Come on. Yeah. I got sworn in as governor of California. And my wife's there. And we got a three-year-old. He's got his pacifier. And he's got his blanket. And he, in the middle of my speech, runs up. I'm giving the speech, stressed out. Again, I don't read speeches. So it was a read, I had to read. So I'm like, I can't look because I'm going to lose my sight on the teleprompter. And my son runs up. My wife was nervous to run up on stage because it was like, this is a big damn deal. And he comes right up, grabs me, and everyone kind of, like, is moving around the audience. I'm like, what do I do? And I, like, just instinctually lifted him, and he put his head right on the side and started to fall asleep. And I read the speech with my son. No one remembers a damn word I said. I don't remember a word. Everyone remembers what it felt like. And all I thought about at that moment, if my mom was around to see that, it wasn't the governor. It was the parent.
--:-- And, yeah, sorry, man. It's unbecoming. Forgive me. But I wish she was around for them. Boy. Because it's, well, I wish I could thank her for being an extraordinary parent. I never did. I told you I took her for granted. I never knew how hard it was until I had my own kids. But I think she'd be so proud of our 9-year-old Dutch, 15-year-old Montana. I think she'd be proud of me in that respect. I think she wanted me to be happy. She wanted me to be a good husband. I got this incredible rock star wife, Jennifer. I got these four unbelievable kids, man, just filled me with joy. I struggle to be a better parent, husband, politics, you know, but that's all she wanted for me.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: When you're in the public eye, as I guess I kind of am now because people watch me a lot. There's always this balance between what people see, which is a very two-dimensional thing, which is what people see of me. And then there's the imperfect, messy home life, which I contend with every single day. Like even on the way here this morning, I'm like, I'm gonna be late for Gavin Newsom because my girlfriend's having like period cramps and I'm like, I don't want to leave my girlfriend but I need to go, I'm gonna be late. And I'm like trying to you know, and then we had the alarms going off in the house and then all the lights flickered because we just moved in as you know, and then the just craziness. And then you look at my phone and there's business problems and then there's my family problems are going on and then I come here and I interview you. I'm sorry, I feel like gotten your way.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: No, no, no.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: But obviously it's a great, it's a tremendous honor as you know, but it's just, it's, I say that because there is a behind the scenes and the behind the scenes is not as perfect as the exterior. And you're alluding to the season of your life being filled with imperfection.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Tell me about the human imperfection that was taking place behind the scenes as you were excelling professionally.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: I think there was a magazine, The Economist, did a headline, said, "Young man in a hurry. He wants to be governor seriously." And it wasn't question mark. It was more, there we are. It was more like, he's serious. He actually thinks he could be governor. It was kind of a snarky headline piece. But the headline struck me, "Young man in a hurry." That's who I was. I was the entrepreneur. I'm just trying to, you know, just trying to make things happen, trying new things, seeing what works. Having a little bit more success than failure. Learning from mistakes, moving on. Move pretty quickly, relatively young age. I mean, I was, I think one of the youngest mayors in San Francisco history. In my 30s. And losing my mom and relationship, my first wife who it was, it ended extraordinarily well, she's, you know, I have nothing negative to say, etc. But it ended, that was embarrassing. You're in the public, everything's the, I'm growing up in the public. I'm growing up with just bright lights.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: How did you fuck up?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah, I just, I got, I didn't, I wasn't situationally aware. I wasn't emotionally mature in terms of, I remember a good friend of mine, Mimi Silbert, who's just a rock star, just got my act. She is the one who got me to get my act together. She goes, "You're the mayor in San Francisco." I said, "Yeah, I know." She goes, "Well, then start acting like it." I said, "What are you talking about?" I said, "When I go in the room, I don't need to be in the front row." She goes, "You need to be there." I said, "I don't need it. I don't like being in the front row. I don't like, I don't need to be right." She says, "The fucking mayor and you'll be in the front row and you'll have people watch you in the front row because that's what they want from their mayor." And I'm like, I remember saying this. I'm like, "What?" I just say, he's like, "No, I'm good." She says, "It's not about you." I said, "Well, no, I don't need that. I don't need to, I like the job. I don't, that's not part of the job. That's the press conference side."
--:-- And it was such a, she literally had such a, I remember sitting there with dinner with her at Delancey Street when she said that to me. And it sort of hit me in the core. There was a lack of maturity. That I was just the entrepreneur that happened to be mayor. And I, this is ironic, based on our conversation, needed to play the role a little bit more than I was. And I needed to mature. And I needed to get my act together. And I went through a process. There was a couple of years there, a year where a lot of things happened all at once. And I was able to get through it, get reelected.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: What were those things that happened all at once?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Well, I mean, divorce, you lose your mom, divorce, dealing with a new job, dealing with high profile decisions that became very national. All of a sudden, I'm punching above my weight as a young elected official in ways that not many people didn't necessarily imagine. Marriage quality issues being one of them. Other things that I was involved in. To your point about drinking a little too much. And after the divorce, making some stupid mistakes that I owned up to and regret. And having to work through all that. I mean, these are, you know, it's around this time. And what I could tell this kid.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: What would you tell him?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Get your shit together.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: You're referring to an extramarital affair which you owned up to.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah, I wasn't married but she was. And it's funny, I've got a little memoir that I'm putting out ironically called "Young Man in a Hurry" next year. I love the title, relate as well, that I'm very, you know, I reflect on that and dive deeper in a very self-critical way and I hope very honest way and I hope people can appreciate that. I think people will because I think every normal human being understands that they too are imperfect. And especially when life takes hold and you're growing and you're learning, we all make mistakes. I've made mistakes and I expect to make a lot more.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Yeah.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: But I think it's in the admittance of those mistakes and acknowledging them that that's where we find out who we actually are.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Yeah.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Humiliated. Humiliated. I had no knowledge of any of this stuff. So when you say humiliated, I just humiliated. And my dad, he said something. I'll tell you, it carried forward with me. He told me at the time. He was so disappointed in me. And he said, "You go home with the one who brought you to the dance." Fuck. And that was the impact I had on one of my friends that I, you know, because of that very, and I don't know, it's not a way, it's just like the shortest. It wasn't even a relationship. It was like just some stupid stuff. And I've just tried to, you know, the fact that we're friends today is like really important to me, like one of the most important things, like to sort of reconcile and that's been really profoundly important as part of the journey. But, you know, I let him down. I embarrassed my dad. I embarrassed myself. I wasn't myself and I had to get my shit together and did, just a drop of the dime. I mean, back to just Mimi Silbert, and just a rock star. And she told me, you know, I remember she said, "You're coming over to see me tonight and we're going to fix this."
--:-- Steven Bartlett: At that age, you were a very young man. I mean, you still look like a young man now. God bless you, brother. But young men are in particular, have a particular set of struggles in the modern world. And you've used certain words that sort of pile into that. You've used the words purpose and meaning. And if we look at some of the stats around how young men are doing in the country, it's not great. And even young boys are doing terribly across the world for a variety of reasons. And when we think about the political climate and what's happened in this last election cycle and how young men are voting increasingly for a certain set of ideas, what do you think is going on with young men? And what is the solution or answer that will lead them to a better outcome?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: You know, I'm really proud of my wife, who's been a real leader. She's done a half dozen documentaries. She did one that was particularly well-received called "Miss Representation" about the myths and disinformation around women and girls. She followed up two years later in 2015 with a documentary called "The Mask You Live In" about masculinity. In 2015, she was highlighting all the things, the trend lines a decade ago that are headlines today as it relates to the crisis of boys and men. And she was noting the suicide rate. She was talking about deaths of despair. She was talking about educational attainment. She was talking about all these issues that were a next level crisis. And it was so ahead of her time in so many respects. And she's come back to me on that over and over again, particularly with our two boys and their maturation versus my two girls and the relationship we have to our deeper understanding of how men and girls and women and boys are different.
--:-- And so this is code red in this country, around the world increasingly. And if it was happening to any minority group, particularly in my party, the Democratic Party, we'd be all over it. Instead, we've been timid about it because men have this sort of hierarchical benefits in society to go back hundreds and hundreds of years. "Oh, men are really struggling, really? You know, men still dominate in all these key positions of power and influence." But when you see all what's happening underneath, it is a crisis. And as a consequence, the Republican Party, Donald Trump in particular, and I think some respects what's happening in this sort of manosphere, and I don't mean that pejoratively, but there's been not an exploitation, at least there's a recognition and a relationship to it that has attracted a lot of young men that are seeking meaning, purpose and mission. And as a consequence, it's also been weaponized, particularly by one party, in a way that I don't think is ultimately beneficial or positive. Our party needs to own up to that, and we need to address these realities. Richard Reeves is doing amazing work on it. Scott Galloway is doing amazing work on it. So many folks in this space. But the Democratic Party, my party, needs to own up in this space.
--:-- And just so I'm not accused of preaching and not practicing, I've worked for the last six months on an executive order that we're about to release in this space that goes to issues around education. It can't be what you can't see. And a lot of these kindergarten, elementary teachers, most of them are women. It's about recruiting more men to become teachers, focusing on caregiving, focusing more broadly on very intentional interventions to begin to address this crisis.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: The Democratic Party, I think it's fair to say, most certainly played their hand wrong in this regard. And the word "played" is obviously, again, comes loaded. But very much, I think people could fairly say, to some degree, turned against or misunderstood men, is probably a better way of saying it, misunderstood the plight of men and boys. And that the Republican Party, the message that they offered, although there's shades of behavior or narrative that is not productive, at least spoke directly to men.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: 100%.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: What do you think the Democratic Party got wrong as it relates to appealing to young men? What's the narrative that the Democratic Party projected but shouldn't have?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: I think there was just deep lack of empathy, care, any compassion to what was going on, and recognition, even deeper understanding. I think it's still something I still have conversations with folks. And people are very uncomfortable in my party talking about this, particularly members of my party in leadership positions, particularly women that just feel like, "Come on, we just went through Me Too. We're struggling with gender equality, inequality. We still don't have equal representations in all these CEO positions. And obviously, we're struggling in legislatures. We continue to have this glass ceiling we can't break. And what more proof do you need than Kamala Harris and Hillary Clinton? We don't even get paid for the same amount as men. And what the hell are you talking to me about? The unique plight and challenges of men."
--:-- And then you start saying, "Well, there's going to be two to one graduates coming from our UC system here in California in the next six years." They're like, "That's not true." And then they see the dads, women, and they go, "Oh, I didn't realize that. Two to one women graduating versus men."
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Yeah, I mean, we're on that track.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: I mean, we're moving down that path. You see the suicide rates are just off the chart. You see the deaths of despair, meaning overdoses, off the charts. And you see all of these indexes of unhappiness and loneliness and isolation. You see, I mean, Scott, he's the best. I mean, talking about what this means in terms of just the inability for boys to ever become men, to be caregivers, to be those warriors, to be those role models, to even have the masculine traits of just being able to be engaged in a real relationship as opposed to attached to some notion of relationship online porn or something. And so it's a comprehensive strategy that needs to be engaged. And for me, politically, it's, as I said, it's code red, not just the substance, the morality of it, but also the politics attached to it because the other party is weaponizing this. And it's multicultural. It's multi-ethnic. It's not just white male grievance that's being expressed in this space.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: If and when you become president in 2028 or another year, how is the attitude towards men going to shift? And what are the practical ways that you get there?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Well, I don't think you wait for that moment. I think we have to shape that moment. I think we have to take responsibility. We have to take account. We have to have a sober, first of all, you have to have a deeper sober reflection of why the hell the Democratic Party is at 27% in polls just a few months ago. I mean, it's a toxic party in terms of its brand.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Why?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Exactly.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: We need to understand that.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: I can give you 25 theories.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Can you give me a super, because I'm not a politician, so I don't understand a lot of the political talk, but like that is staggering.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: And why did it happen?
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Thank you. No, but that the question. How did that happen?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: It one of the reasons I started my own podcast. It was part of that exploration. Again, back to humility and grace, two words I'll use over and over and over and over again. Seek first to understand before you're understood. I listened to all the punditry hours after the election results. And everyone was an expert. I'm like, that's amazing. You're an expert. It was Israel, for sure. No, it was inflation, for sure. No, it was interest rates, for sure. No, it was incumbency, for sure. No, it was woke, for sure. No, it was trans, for sure. Everyone was for sure. They knew exactly what it was. I'm like, this is amazing. Everyone just knows what's going on. Meanwhile, I'm like 20 pages in writing this down, saying, "Oh, it's about the law of humanity. Oh, no, it's about the man of... No, it's about... It was about Joe Rogan. We didn't go on Joe. Oh, for sure. It was about... No, she didn't say this, or it was the view, for sure. She could have separated from Biden." And then I'm like, well, wait a second. I need to really understand this more fully.
--:-- And so that became my own journey back to the entrepreneur, trying to iterate and deciding to get some folks that I vehemently disagree with on a new podcast, Charlie Kirk. Because for sure he was successful in convincing a lot of young men to turn out in record numbers for Trump. I wanted to learn about that. Back to this notion of success leaves clues. I want to pick his brain. What are you doing right, man? Show some humility and grace as it relates to not trying to be argumentative in the interview. Just I'm trying to pick. I want to know why you're so successful. That offended a lot of people.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: What did you discover?
--:-- Steven Bartlett: He's got a plan. He's executing a plan. He's got a strategy. He's got a date that he's identified with a goal attached to it. He's got a dream with a deadline. He's there in places people don't expect him to be. He's meeting with folks without any filter. He's willing to confront people he disagrees with and agrees with. He's willing to be out there on the field. He's organized a construct, and he's been very deliberative of building a sense of community. And this notion of community, we all want to be connected to something bigger than ourselves, is a big part of this as well, part of the MAGA movement. And particularly with people feeling disconnected, you're naturally going to want to find your way back to something bigger than themselves that sort of moors you and gives you sense of purpose and meaning as well. And when people are lost, they do go in search of someone who resonates with them and someone who speaks directly to their plight.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: And my observation as someone that's not an American, when I think about someone like Charlie Kirk versus Kamala Harris, it's the absolute opposite approach. Kamala Harris, lots of people say she avoided going on Rogan. She wanted him to fly to her. She was going to give him a tiny short time window, it was probably going to be a bit sanitized in all respects. And then Charlie Kirk sits on campuses across the U.S. and has students come up and ask him any question, and his response is he doesn't care about sanitization or being politically correct, and he puts it on YouTube for hours and hours and hours. And I think in a glass box world, where we get to see inside now because of technology, the black box approach where your PR team tries to paint an image on the outside is over. And we saw it in the election cycle. And you're doing it, you're leading the charge there because I can't think of another key political figure globally who has started a podcast where you literally invite the other side on. So you're playing the glass box approach.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: I love the way you describe that. And everything you said resonated with me. Had Steve Bannon on. Which is just, you know, itself was interesting. Look, these folks exist and persist. You can deny it. My party can deny it at its own peril. Back to your point about what the hell's happened to my party. And so trying to understand that, trying to unpack that. But, you know, it's interesting. I think Kamala is an old friend of mine. I don't want to get into Kamala. And I say old friend and people roll their eyes in politics. People say, you know, old friend, it means they're frenemies. It's not, but we go back before we were both in politics. We both share that Willie Brown, the former mayor, in common in terms of a relationship that we both had. And as a consequence of the relationship we had with him, we were able to get to know one another as sort of this cohort. And I think a lot about what we've just gone through. I wish I'd love to see Kamala on your show. I'd love to see her. Picture of mom and dad. And I know her as well or better than most. But I would love to see that side of her.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: So this notion of what'd you say, glass box versus black box. Hey, I'm on here for a reason. I'm out of any excuse. Look, you are who you are and let it all out there. And I think people, I think we claim we long for authenticity. I still mostly believe that. Sometimes I question that because people want you to be your authentic self, but they're like, well, don't swear as much. Or be your authentic self, but don't be so emotional. Or be your authentic self, but there's a but. But I think at the end of the day, I think we've crossed that. I think we're on the other side. People just want more of you, whoever the hell you are. Regardless of what it is. Because even the crazy thing I observe about Trump is even the imperfect things he says that would once upon a time have revolted some people and would have had adverse reactions, the fact that he's willing to say them creates the impression in my mind that I know who he is. And you don't have to like someone, but if you trust that you know who they are, then you feel safer in predicting what they'll do.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Totally. Now if I don't see Kamala sat on Joe Rogan or someone like this getting to know her unfiltered... Your team didn't tell me this, your team didn't give me any parameters. They didn't say you can't ask him about this, don't talk about this. There was no parameters. At least people know you are who you are.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: And I think most people don't. They see me as sort of a slick guy that they think grew up with a trust fund. Everything was handed to him. People don't know my entrepreneurial background. I don't think they believe what they may have seen on Fox News or One American News and the weaponization of that. And so it's critical. I think for our party generally, I think for both parties now, you've just got to get out of that bubble. I give Trump, to your point, credit in that respect in every way, shape, form. Criticize him for many things. You can't criticize him for accessibility, for at least appearing to be authentic in terms of his approach, his willingness to confront and engage. And I think that's very refreshing.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: How do you think America's doing?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: I think we're struggling. Our identity, I think we're, you know, Trump has made us feel free to shove again. It's not our better selves. The sort of John Meacham language, the soul of America is struggling. And I really worry about our institutions. I worry about our democracy. I worry about neighbors turning on neighbors, people forgetting the universal truths that we all want to be loved. We all need to be loved. I talked about everybody needing to be connected. We also need to be respected. And I think people are talking down to each other, talking past each other. It's, again, why I want to platform people I disagree with. And Newt Gingrich on, former Speaker Gingrich, who led my recall effort against me. I'm trying to just find some balance in that respect because there are good people that vehemently disagree with us. I don't know that it benefits any of us to demean or belittle folks.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: That's my thing with Trump. He attacks vulnerable communities. My mom, her real, early indelible inspiration for me in terms of one of those two, three jobs she had wasn't just working as a waitress and doing the bookkeeping, but she worked for aid to adoption of special kids with the DeBolt family that are kids with intellectual and physical disabilities. And I remember spending time with these kids and I hate bullies. I mean, forgive the word hate. I know I just, I dislike, I hate bullies. I don't like people demeaning other people. I don't like people scapegoating vulnerable communities. My why is standing up for ideals and striking out against injustice. It defines nine out of 10 things for me, personal, professional, standing up for ideals, striking out against injustice. And it's just to me unjust to see people demeaned and belittled and to see vulnerable communities used as pawns, to talk about alligator whatever in Florida and talk about immigrants and demeaning in ways and they have to zig and zag if they want to avoid getting killed by an alligator or something or mocking people with disabilities. That's where I stand firm.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: And right now, my biggest fear, you asked about where our country is. I feel like Trump has opened that Overton window in a way that I'm very concerned about our ability to get back to find our better humanity.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Who does Trump care about?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Himself, period, full stop. It's not complicated. He doesn't care if he's the heel or the hero, as long as he's the star. And that's just anyone that's spent time with him. I spend time with him much more than any Democrat, certainly any Democratic governor in the country, period, full stop. I did it through COVID his first term and certainly even in the second term.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: And what surprised you?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Nothing. The surprise to me now is that he's a very different guy than he was in the first term. There's no limits now. There's a megalomania there. He feels no limits now, and you feel that in every way. He can say and do whatever the hell he wants and there's no oversight. There's no advice and consent. There's no co-equal branch of government. The speaker of our House of Representatives completely abdicated that. The question is, do the courts hold up, or we the people? And we're celebrating our 250th anniversary of the founding fathers, the best of the Roman republic, Greek democracy, and this notion of a system of checks and balances and popular sovereignty. And I think it's on life support now. And I don't say that lightly. I say that very thoughtfully. And I say that as a guy that's watched the president of the United States not send military in his first term or his first six months anywhere in the world except to an American city where he has 5,000 military in the streets of Los Angeles, a war within. So I say this very soberly and mindful of the moment we are in American history.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Do you think he wants to see you fail?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: I think he wants to take me out and down at the same time. I think he enjoys the sparring with me. I think he thrives on it. I know he does.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Because he calls you Gavin New Scum.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: But then meets with you privately.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: And what are those meetings like?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Unbelievably cordial. It drives people crazy when I say this, but I'd be lying if I didn't say it. Every time I have a conversation, including the night before he, quote unquote, federalized the National Guard, we had an unbelievably good conversation. And we were going back and forth. He said, "Use this cell phone. Keep calling me on this cell phone directly. You need anything, call me. You need anything, call me," which is an amazing final statement. As I hung up, only to read eight hours later, that at New Scum, I read him the riot act, which he never did, completely made up, 100% made it up, and then federalizes the Guard. It's a game. It's a show. It's a dangerous game and it's a very exhausting show and it's becoming derivative and more dangerous.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Isn't this just how politics goes in America?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: No, it shouldn't. Look, I used to have my beef with George W. Bush, George H.W. Bush. We'd have our beefs on the other side. Republicans certainly with Clinton or Obama or even Biden. I longed for those days. I go in the office of Ronald Reagan's old office, Governor Ronald Reagan. That's my old office as governor of California. His last speech in the Oval Office, his last speech was about the life force of new Americans, Lady Liberty's torch, our better angels. What happened to that Republican Party? And this is different. This is darkness.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Really? Darkness? Because I hear this every election cycle.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: No, this is dark. We're only six months in. The vandalization that he's done to this democracy and institutions, I mean, eliminating oversight. I'm not just talking about a co-equal branch of government. What does that mean for the average person that doesn't know anything about what he's doing? It means there's no, he's eliminated the inspector general's auditing capacity. He's going after political opponents, removing them from key positions of power and influence and putting in acolytes, putting in people that just do his bidding. He's pushing the boundaries on the rule of law. He's threatening to recall not just people he disagrees with. He wanted my arrest. Remember, the president of the United States said Newsom should be arrested. They said on what grounds? He got elected. He said he doesn't like the fact that his political enemy got elected. It means he's not, he doesn't say that lightly. And once a mind is stretched, it never goes back to its original form. So every time he does this, he's sort of testing these boundaries.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: And this is what makes me more concerned. I'll give you a proof point. God is my witness. We're sitting here. When we do this today on this podcast, I just read this morning that Donald Trump was on the phone with the Texas legislature, and they're going through a redistricting thing to basically get five more seats for the midterms because they're likely to lose the midterms. And Trump is like, lose power unless they can change the districts and rig the game. So he stays in power.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Do you think he's going to try and stay in power? When people close to Donald Trump send the governor of California a hat that says Trump 2028, they're not messing around. They sent you a hat saying Trump 2028.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: 2028. They're not screwing around. I sat in the Oval Office for 90 minutes with Donald Trump, first Democratic governor to do that. And he looked around and said, "Hey, who's behind you?" I looked around the picture and said, "I'm like FDR." And I literally turned. I'm like, "Oh, seriously?" He goes, "Yeah." He goes, "What do you think? Three terms? Four terms?" I said, "Oh, come on." And then he just starts laughing. Because he's having fun. But again, he's throwing things out. He's iterating.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Do you think he would stay for a third, fourth term?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: I mean, I think he's the guy that tried to wreck this country, tried to light our democracy on fire. He said it was a day of love, January 6th, so much so that he literally, as you know, pardoned everybody that participated in that melee. I mean, that happened. That grounds in and of itself to question whether or not I'm overstating anything. And that was first week in office. This is shock and awe. We have people in masks going to car washes without identifying, and people are disappearing in the streets of America today. Thousands of people disappearing on the streets of America today based on what you look like, your skin color. That's happening. That is not normal. And every day he's able to shape-shift and distract us to move someplace else. "I've got a big announcement, huge announcement on Putin. I'll do major sanctions in 50 days." Really? I mean, this ability to distract, it's serious. What lies underneath is serious. And I don't think I'm exaggerating it. And I'm very, very cautious when it comes to this kind of language, because you're right. When you tend to cry wolf here. I don't think we're overstating the seriousness that we have to push back. The seriousness of purpose to which this moment needs to be met.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Really? This is not just another president comes in, they do a bunch of changes, a bunch of executive orders, and then they leave in three and a half years?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: He tried to stay in the office. He called the elections chief in Georgia and asked, "I just need a few thousand votes." He wasn't joking about that. He was dead serious about that. And had they found that, he would have rigged his own election.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: You serious?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: What more evidence do you need? They're so concerned about taking over the House. Now, Democrats, we're on path to do it. They have to rig the game. And you think if they don't take back the House of Representatives, they won't move from some form of voter suppression, the likes of which we've never seen in this country, threats of martial law? What do you think this whole experiment with 5,000 military, weeks and weeks and weeks, doing nothing, by the way? They're sitting in the armory. They're doing nothing. They're there for show, but he's pushing the boundaries of what they're capable of doing, testing the courts and the Constitution. That's for a larger purpose. And I'm not trying to be, it may not be intentional purpose yet, but they'll place an opportunity to utilize the lessons learned here today to extend their reach and power tomorrow. And I very much, yes, I worry about our democracy in three and a half years. And I worry about that election if they maintain their power in the House of Representatives. I'm that deeply concerned, dead serious.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: On the balance of probability, do you think it's likely Trump will try and stay in office in 2028?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: On the balance of probability, no.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: No, okay.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: But I can see a scenario, but not on the balance of probability.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: And that's on the basis of one thing?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Time of life.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Oh, okay.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: If he was 69, not 79. Look, this is the great grift. He did what he never did in the first term. He played in the margins. He was able to take advantage of his brand and his businesses and make a few bucks here and there, but not the money he's making now. I mean, the crypto, everything he's doing, the kids now selling cell phones, the whole thing, monetizing everything, coming out with new brands and new plans. He finally is doing what he didn't do the first term. He's president of the United States, but now he's going to make a fortune. So when he's no longer president, he'll have a $400 million plan that has a billion dollars of upgrades on it. They'll be donated to the foundation that he can use for the rest of his life. Thank you to the Qataris. He will have billions and billions of dollars. He'll make the vast majority of his wealth in just a few years as president of the United States. He will set himself up in that respect. He'll have hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars of excess campaign cash that he'll be able to use for whatever luxurious lifestyle he ever needs. And I imagine that may satisfy him as long as he gets his person in to replace him so they can continue that grift going forward. The American people elected him. They said, that's our guy. That's why my party needs to own up to that. And this is existential. We need to do better.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: That's correct. Are you faithful, hopeful that the Democratic Party are going to wake up in time to field a serious campaign that can compete with that very sort of dominant prevailing narrative?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: I think it starts yesterday. It's not about the guy or gal on the white horse to come save the day. It's not about 2028. It's about the midterms, which we just talked about. It's also about what happens to me now in the midterms. It's about the rule of law. It's about courts. It's about governors. It's about states. It's about mayors. It's about we the people, citizens. I mean, look, I was inspired in the No Kings Day. I mean, you guys know a little bit about kings. The No Kings Day, five million people showed up on Trump's birthday. That gave me hope.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Which was a sort of a protest against authoritarianism.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah, against authoritarianism. It was, look, you know, it was Justice Bray and I said, in a democracy, the most important office is not office of president, governor, mayor, it's office of citizen.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: You're an entrepreneur. How do you think your party have done with appealing to entrepreneurs?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Terribly.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: You preside over San Francisco, which is globally we think of as the center point of innovation and technology.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Terrible.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: But I think the perception is that the Democratic Party don't like entrepreneurs. And the Republicans, it's the home of entrepreneurship. In fact, all of my friends that are entrepreneurs, if they were being honest in private, they would say that they lean towards the Republican Party as it relates to entrepreneurship.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: It's amazing. But you know, it's interesting. Since 1989, the end of the Cold War, in the United States of America, there's been 52 million jobs created. There have been three Republican administrations, three Democratic administrations. So it's fair to say, how do we do? Republican administrations, Democratic administrations since 1989. And you'd say, well, maybe it's 50-50. Maybe Republicans, on the basis of your entrepreneur friends, Republicans probably did 60% of those jobs. Well, 50 of the 52 million were created under Democratic administrations. 1.9 million jobs created during Republican administrations. You look at the last three Republican presidents, they have one thing in common: recessions. During the last administration under Joe Biden, created 16.6 million jobs. And I know a lot of those were COVID jobs, but he blew past that after 18 months. He created eight times more jobs than the last three Republican administrations combined. But this economy does better. Job creation thrives during Democratic administrations, but perception is exactly what you said.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Yes. So you gave me the logic. I know. But the brain isn't orientated towards logic. It's narrative. Where's the economy in this country? Why are we the fourth largest economy in the world? We have four of the top seven market cap companies in the world. NVIDIA just came with $4 trillion market cap. We dominate. 32 of the top 50 AI companies are right here in California. We're dominating every key industry. We're the biggest manufacturing state. We dominate. Name an industry. California dominates. So why are entrepreneurs so pissed off? Big blue state. Why entrepreneurs in your state pissed off? 71% of the GDP in this country are blue metro counties. Elon left. He went to Texas.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: He left and came right back. Where's Grok? Where's his R&D headquarters, world headquarters? Where are the vast majority of his jobs for SpaceX and Tesla? He did that because he wanted to make a buck so he can avoid capital gains and avoid income tax as he cashes out on 20 years of largesse by the taxpayers in California that created a regulatory environment that created the industry. Because of our vehicle emission standards and subsidize that industry with billions and billions of dollars of taxpayer money to make Elon rich. And then he turned his back so he didn't have to pay capital gains. Do you know what I think? And by the way, he's back. All his AI, where's all his AI? It's in California. Where are all of his research and development folks? All in California.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Everything you said might be true. And I don't know the details of it, so I can't comment on that. But again, perception. I know. Come back to perception. I agree. When I, in my, you know, over in the UK, when I watch the Democratic Party attacking these really successful individuals and Biden attacking Elon Musk. Look, I'm not going to go into the details of Elon Musk and his imperfections. He makes it easy to attack both parties. But let's try and just hit this point, which is the Democratic Party tend to be the ones who are criticizing the world's most successful people.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: I agree.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: And saying that they're this and that, and never pausing to say, actually, they did something good as well. And it's the lack of nuance for me where I go, I can't trust that these people are just pure evil. I can't trust that they're just pure evil and only bad things, which is all I hear. But on the right side, you might hear the opposite. Where is the nuance here? Like, can you say something positive about Elon Musk?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: There's been no bigger champion of Elon Musk for 20 years than I have. I've been his biggest supporter. In fact, I have one of the first Teslas right off the factory floor. I've been his biggest promoter and supporter for decades and decades. So I've said that over and over and over again.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: It all tends to be negative about these entrepreneurs. You can understand from left politics around the world does seem to have a certain disdain for successful entrepreneurs.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: So let's talk about that. It is the worst part of my party. I can't stand it. I do not begrudge other people's success. I'm inspired by it. I admire it. We opened this conversation up, all these heroes of mine. Like Richard Branson is a hero of mine. I love his success. I love his audacity. I love his ability to compete. I love his ability to promote, create jobs, opportunity, wealth. I think it is a big problem in the Democratic Party. And we do not do enough to make this fundamental point that you cannot be pro-job and anti-business, period. And we need to say that and we need to demonstrate that. Look, it drove me crazy. Half my friends were up there, maybe not even half, a lot more than half, were up there with Donald Trump when he got sworn in. And the symbolism of that was he's got their back and they have his back of entrepreneurs and dream makers in this country. And I thought, Jesus, I mean, just that alone, where the hell was my party? Why are we making a case for entrepreneurs and business leaders?
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Do you respect Elon?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: I've long respected him, but he's changed in the last seven, eight years. He just has. And I say that with so many mutual friends, universally saying that. In fact, I was one of the last to come around. I'm like, no, he's all right. Even after he left, quote unquote, Tesla left, which they never did. They didn't change. They didn't move a job. They just changed the corporate headquarters. He came back a few months later. You can go online and you can see a press conference I had when he moved his world R&D headquarters back to California. And I praised Elon. And that wasn't that long ago. That was after, quote unquote, he left the state of California. But he's different now. Something's changed. And now, of course, that's been exposed across the spectrum. It's not just from a prism of left and right. But I've long admired him. He created this entire market. And he's 100% right about this big, beautiful bill. He's 100% right that we're doubling down on stupid and we're investing in the past as the rest of the world is leaping forward. China's going to clean our clock as it relates to electric vehicles. They're going to clean our clock in terms of the future and dominate it because of some of what Donald Trump has just done and rolling back progress that was made over the last decade or so, particularly as it relates to what just occurred with the IRA and notably with the infrastructure bill that the previous president passed. So I agree with him on a lot of things, but some character issues that I question.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: I use his name, I guess, because he's now so influential in this country, but he's also like a figurehead of a certain kind of entrepreneurship and innovation. And now he owns X as well, so the platform's so big. If you are ever to become president, what's your attitude going to be towards entrepreneurs like him, and how is that different to the Democratic history?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Celebrate and revere their entrepreneurialism. We celebrate them. We celebrate their contributions. Again, the idea that our party is branded by begrudging other people's success is devastating to the aspirations of what it means. So much of what it means to be an American in California is the dream. It's attached to this notion of social mobility, that there's a limitlessness in terms of being and doing anything. And so my job as governor and my job in any position would be to create the conditions where people feel included, feel seen, where they can live their lives out loud. And we create the conditions where their success becomes inevitable or irresistible. And I think a lot of what leadership is, is climate control, not in the sustainable sense. And it's no longer command and control.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: What I'm concerned about now is the command and control of crony capitalism coming back into the United States of America because of Donald Trump. You got to kiss the ring. You don't kiss the ring, it's going to be punitive. You want an exemption on the tariffs? Just make a call. Or rather better yet, make a contribution. Maybe you make a contribution indirectly by buying some crypto and that contribution then gets the benefit. Maybe you make a deal overseas on weapons and we take care of the golf course. Maybe we'll take care of the new two towers for the family. That's what's happened under Trump in just six months to a degree never seen. It's unimaginable in the United States to see it at this scale and this level. And that, to me, is not free enterprise.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Is the world safer now under Trump than it was under Biden?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: There's nuance to that. I don't think it's a binary safe. I mean, I think...
--:-- Steven Bartlett: In terms of war and the probability of a World War Three?
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Are we? I think it's more unpredictable than it's been. I worry about nuclear proliferation. I worry about AI. Biden wasn't doing so well. When I watched that debate, and he was struggling over his words and couldn't be coherent with sentences...
--:-- Gavin Newsom: I did. I was his chief surrogate that night.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: So chief surrogate?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah, I was there representing the campaign to make a case.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: So you were there?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: I was doing my best to have his back. You go home with a guy who brought you to the dance. And, you know, I was proud to support him, but that was a difficult night.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Did you realize in that moment that he wasn't doing well?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Right when he walked out on stage. I was in the back. I'll never forget physically standing up as I was watching and going... I turned to my staff. I said, something's off right when he walked on stage. Felt it. It was the only time I saw that was at a fundraiser here that he had after he had no sleep. And we all just literally assumed it was just jet lag. He had flown back and forth to Europe twice in over a week. He had a late night. And I thought, boy, he's just not on. And that was in private, not just his public comments with President Obama that night.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: There was a lot of talk, rhetoric, that there was an internal desire to overthrow him around that time because you could see on TV he was struggling and in the polls, and Donald Trump was reveling in it. And then I heard this narrative coming up that Nancy Pelosi and the Democratic Party were having private conversations and telling him to step down and forcing him out. All cards on the table, 100% truth. Is there any truth in that?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah. No, a lot of that was happening. A lot of people were... I mean, there was a phone tree that lit up that night. There was a text tree, phone tree, email, just blew up.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Saying?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: People were in panic. Total full-fledged panic. And there was a need and desire to know that he was okay and that this was momentary, or discovered there was something else. Maybe he had a cold, maybe there's some other issue. And it led to those kind of conversations that many have been made public, many private. Led to meetings with Democratic governors in the White House with the president around the table.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Including you.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Including me. Mr. President, tell us, you know, what's your path? How are you feeling? Some honest back and forth with a few governors that challenged him a little bit more than one would have expected with sort of protocol within the party. And yeah, a real desire, obviously, to turn the page. And ultimately, that manifested with a decision he made and led to, obviously, our nominee, his vice president.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: He was effectively pushed out of the party by pressure.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Because he wanted to continue. That was clear.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: He said that. Yeah, he believed he was the only one that could beat Donald Trump. Having beat him once, he was convinced he could do it again. He believed that his record of the lowest black unemployment, Hispanic unemployment, lowest unemployment for women, the best economy in 60 years as it relates to jobs and GDP growth, inflation that was cooling from 9.1 and was moving in the right direction with the Chips and Science Act, with the infrastructure bill, the IRA, 400 bipartisan bills. He felt the lowest uninsured rates. They felt like things directionally were moving despite the inflation scars. And then he could make that case. He felt that. He really did feel that way.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: A lot of the narrative was that you were going to step in potentially at last minute. And I know in your head, you must have been mulling and thinking about going back and forward about different possibilities and outcomes. Things were moving so quickly and there was such little time. I saw your name mentioned all the time associated with stepping in to replace him.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: No, but I was also the one that was out there still campaigning for him after everyone else had turned their back.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: But you must be in your head at night thinking things could change. You talked about what shaped me, those moments. When I say no daylight, when I say, you know, I got to make up for disappointing this guy and myself, when I'm in, I'm in. And I'll tell you, the coin of the realm in politics is loyalty, period, full stop. Willie Brown taught me that, and Joe Biden. I was going to have his back. So I literally, I'm telling you, look me in the eye, because I know it's cynical. I did not think along those lines. After he dropped out, those minutes later, and my cell phone blew up, I confess that there were a number of people that wondered. And I imagine you can, you know, there were plenty of people sort of circling and go, well, maybe this is the moment. Once he dropped out. To be candid, I'm going to get in trouble for saying this because I haven't said it public. I was a little angry. I didn't get a heads up.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: You didn't get a heads up.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: I was just giving you like a text, two minutes, because I was embarrassed. I was sitting with a group of people, and I was like, my phone rang. I was like, wow. So my first reaction, honestly, was like, geez, all this stuff I did for this guy, not even a heads up. And first missed call, true story, I didn't even know it was an unknown number. I didn't even look at it for about six hours, and it was Kamala.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Kamala?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: She only made the call to me.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Saying what?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Just a voicemail. Love to talk.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: About what?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Well, she was running. So it's, you know, and a few hours later, I put out a press release supporting her candidacy.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: What should the Democratic Party have done with the wisdom of hindsight in that moment instead of just putting Kamala straight in?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: All geniuses in hindsight. I don't know what you could have possibly done with just such a short runway. You had the vice president of the United States. You had the apparatus that was built within the party. You had the legal ability for her because it was the Biden-Harris campaign to transfer a lot of that. You had little time. You would have opened up to a circular firing squad.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: But it didn't work. As it relates to the party. In hindsight, it didn't work. What could you have done with the benefit of hindsight that might have worked?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah, I would have, could have, should have. I don't live in that. But I live where we were exploring a moment ago. And that is in reflection more broadly of where the party is. Less the individuals. And I think that's our biggest mistake. We're so consumed by the individual.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Identity politics.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah, well, issues related, identity, politics broadly. But it's not just the person. It's who we represent. And there's a word we didn't use earlier, but you used it in relationship to Trump. Weakness versus strength. And I'll tell you, to me, at the core, at the end of the day, to me, it's that distinction that perhaps says more things in more ways on more days about where our two parties are. Donald Trump exudes, strangely, strength. I think he's weakness masquerading as strength. Our party appears weak for many, too many. And I remember Bill Clinton after a shellacking, we got crushed in a midterm. And he said, given the choice, Bill Clinton said, the American people always support strong and wrong versus weak and right. There's something about that. I think this notion of strength, I think it goes to young boys. I think it goes to Trump and Trumpism, what he sells, what he represents to people. I think in that distinction maybe is a pathway for our party.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: And my last question before I get to the book, which is the question left by our last guest, is there's a high probability, which I'm aware of, that I'm sat with the future president of the United States. There's a probability. Even if it's a 1% probability, it's an extraordinary opportunity to ask this question. I'll give you 1%.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah, even if it's a 1%.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: But I looked at the odds before I walked out, so I know it's higher. What happens under you if I took that Men in Black little pen thing that erases memory and I erase my memory of the Democratic Party and I erase the memory of the Democratic Party for all of my audience watching and you have a clean slate to redefine that party and we don't reflect on the past and that party is coming up in 2028 against the Republican MAGA-centric party maybe led by J.D. Vance. What is that proposition? I'm a young man, but not just for young men, for everybody. What is the proposition you're putting forward? What does it sound like? And I don't want any of the political stuff.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: No, no, no. What does it sound like? And you can appreciate, I hope, that I don't have the kind of answer that's worthy of that question because it's a spectacular question. And it's fundamentally the question that needs to be answered by whoever is running for president of the United States. And it needs to be done so congruently. It can't be, to your point, bullshit. It can't be a poll-tested focus group, a bunch of words and pablum.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: What does your heart say?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: You have to feel it. In so many respects, what we just ended on, I think this notion of the dream, I think there's something about why we're together that is sort of the intersection of entrepreneurialism, aspiration, inspiration, growth, opportunity, inclusion, that begins to answer and flesh out, create an answer that fleshes out. And it's in that space that I'm consumed. I'm consumed by contribution and service, this notion of service, communitarianism, this notion that we're all better off. I think public service should be a requirement, national service. But it's in that space that ultimately, I think, an answer will emerge.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: And there's lots of... It's funny, because politics, more and more I've learned about it, is this battle between rationality and logic, and then just emotion and perception.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Exactly right.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: So you talked about some of the great things the Democratic Party have done. But it's crazy how the headlines will be dominated by some issue around, quote unquote, woke ideology. And it almost becomes the case that people care, they're more emotionally compelled by this idea that their kids in schools are being taught something that is corrupting their mind versus how the economy is doing or jobs.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: I know. And I think we struggled to recognize that.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: How do you recognize that?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: They were shape-shifting. CRT, ESG, DAI, anything with three letters. I mean, we were on our heels. We were on the receiving end of all this. We're constantly on the defense. I love what President Obama just said. He said, we got to get more aggressive, get on the offense. I've been saying this for years.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: What does that mean?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Meaning we've got to shape the narrative. Illusion rules. Facts don't matter. You've got these propaganda networks weaponizing grievance 24-7, and we're constantly responding to these culture wars. And let me be specific on that. I think the governor of Utah said it best, never has so much attention been focused on so few as it relates to the issue of trans athletes. He's 100% right. But there's also a truism, and it's part of being in business. You're nothing but a mirror of your consistent thoughts. Whatever you focus on, you're going to find more of. And so if 24-7, that's all that's coming from you, California this, California crackup, everyone's leaving the worst place to do everything else, you start to believe it. You start to shape your conversation. Then you start finding proof points. Oh, there's an encampment. Oh, I just read about this crime down at the Walmart. And it's just, everyone's leaving because Elon left. So I think narrative matters, to your point. Trump understands that better than anybody. He repeats things over in the vernacular of my buddy, Marshawn Lynch, and over and over and over and over and over and over again. So I think flooding the zone in that respect, you are a master at it. I mean, dealing with Jesus, seriously. I mean, of all people should hire you, my friend, that understand data and analytics, communication, how to target, broader message, values, brand, strength, and how to sell. You got to sell it. I mean, we're sitting there talking about the Chips and Science Act. No one knows what the hell you're even talking about. We didn't sell what we were delivering. I think we have to rebrand it.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Yeah. And it's also, look, part of the answer to the question you asked earlier is also... So, Ezra Klein and others talk about an abundance mindset. We've had this scarcity mindset, this sort of zero-sum mindset. And as an entrepreneur, you don't have a scarcity mindset. And I think as part of the brand building of our party, it's not just in terms of housing and issues related to what Ezra speaks in terms of abundance mindset, but it's that growth abundance mindset. And I think that's part of when I talk about the dream. I'm also saying this, by the way, from the prism that no other governor can claim. You have the American dream and you have the California dream. There's no other state that's attached to a dream. And I think there's something evocative in that because that inspires a journey that we can be on, a journey that we can go on together. And so I'm captured by the vernacular of the 60s. And Bobby Kennedy was my political hero, Sargent Shriver and Kennedy. Everything about that, solving for ignorance and poverty and disease and this notion of going on a journey together. That was what the moon was all about. And we can see ourselves on that journey. Right now, it's the blue versus the red team. This is a war within this country. And I think whoever runs the next four years or three years, it's about stitching the stack together and going on a journey together. Because as I say all the time, divorce is not an option.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: There's just two other things that sprung to mind as you're talking. I've always wondered in California, specifically in LA. I told you I moved here. Just moved into my place yesterday, in fact. I was in a CVS, I think it was, and I was trying to get some toothpaste. Horrible, right?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah, I couldn't believe it.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: I said to the team, this was like six months ago, I was like, I went to a CVS to get some toothpaste. And I got to the toothpaste and it's in a cage. And I said to the lady there, I was like, why is the toothpaste in a cage? And she goes, look. And she points down the aisle. And there was a gentleman, a homeless gentleman, who was stuffing things in his sock.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: And I thought, fucking hell, like, if I look over there, there's these mansions in the hills. And if I'm in the CVS, the toothpaste's in a cage because the homeless people are stuffing things into their socks.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Is that fixable?
--:-- Steven Bartlett: And what caused it?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Well, now you're dealing with larger systemic issues that go back decades and decades and the haves and have-nots. And that goes to...
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Drug addiction.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah. I mean, specific issues around homelessness and that gets to deeper issues about mental health, behavioral health issues, affordability, housing crisis. But look...
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Is it fixable?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yes, by definition.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Why does no one fix it?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: It's being fixed and progress is literally being made. We're seeing significant reductions back-to-back years in crime. We're seeing significant reductions in organized retail theft. We're seeing significant reductions, including just here in LA, they announced a 17 and a half percent decline over two years in the number of people out on the streets and sidewalks and unsheltered homeless. That was literally announced yesterday by the mayor. So there is progress in all these cases. So absolutely, it's solvable. I'm radical on this point as well, because I saw the announcement you made, and I watched very closely a couple of years ago when you announced that you're going to have to get these encampments off the street. I'm done with it. It's exhausting. Clean them up. It's the job of a mayor. My job as mayor, former mayor of San Francisco. Do your job. Clean them up. Get people off the street. There's nothing compassionate about stepping over people on the streets and sidewalks. And so we have flooded the zones in terms of support and resources. Now it's about performance. And I have the great honor of working with Prince William in the UK on a homelessness initiative. So I know the complexities of it. And some people think of it as just a housing issue. But having spent time with people at risk of homelessness, I know it's a confidence issue. It's a mental health issue. It's a jobs issue. It's a pathways into employment issue. It's a very, very complicated issue.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: That's actually blown my mind, Homewards, in terms of...
--:-- Gavin Newsom: I say it all the time. Shelters solve sleep. Housing and supportive services solve homelessness. You've got to deal with the underlying reasons people are out on the streets and sidewalks in the first place. And so it's about this comprehensive integration of care, whole person care as we describe it. We've just gone through the most significant mental health reforms in U.S. history. We have flooded the zone with more support, 26,000 new units of behavioral health housing. We are producing and procuring in the state of California in real time with zoning reforms so we can site them, workforce development reforms. And we're reorganizing the integration around mental health in the silos and people with drug and alcohol addictions and the integration. And this is the source to me of so much of my real passion in terms of my day job. And you're going to see real progress in this state.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Well, I did do some research beforehand, and I can see that there's some really significant actions taken, and they are nuanced and complex in their solution. So that's very, very encouraging. And it's encouraging to meet someone who understands the complexities of this problem, because actually the narrative that will win out in an election cycle is going to be emotional, it's going to be simple. And so I think everybody should look out for emotional and simple answers and exclude them whenever you hear them. Last question before I ask you this one is, all the headlines at the moment are about Jeffrey Epstein. And the way that that's been handled really is the thing that I find so fascinating because on the way into the presidential office and into those big roles, there were certain promises made about the Epstein files and it would be released. And if you vote for me, then I will release these files. And now there's nothing to see.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: What happened there?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Well, they lied to you then or they lied to you now, period. Someone lied about this. They dangled this in order to get votes. And they lied to people. They used people. And someone needs to be held to account. And look, I can be cynical about it. I can be very political about it and say it's interesting when Elon, and we brought up Elon, when Elon Musk tweets something out saying Trump's on the list. And a few days later, there is no list. You can be cynical about that. It leads to some open-ended questions.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: What would you have done if you were Trump in that situation? So say that you'd been elected and the public demanding to see this list. What would you have done?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: One thing is obvious. I know Pam Bondi well, the attorney general. We've known each other over the years. She doesn't move without Trump. If she's fired, she's the fall person because there's no question she was directed by Trump to say what she said. She would not have, period, full stop, done something independent of the president on the Epstein files. So Trump is the person that's... So one has to acknowledge that. So then it begs additional questions. Why was she told not to release the files unless, A, there's no files, and they made it up the entire damn time, just like they made up Obama's birth certificate, just like they make up most things most days, my humble position.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: I think that's very plausible. It could be very simple. It could be as simple as that. They started the conspiracy. They fucked it up. They started. They're covering their ass, and they're just like, shit, we got caught. We used this. We sort of squeezed this out. We got everything we needed. We're in power. Or it's more insidious than that.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: And look, the one thing is just not even, it's just simple truth. Epstein and Trump were close. They were. It wasn't just a few photographs. They were close. That's a fact. Sorry, Donald. Just a fact. So look, I get why this outrages folks. I think it's interesting. It's outraged some of the core base. I enjoy the hell out of it. I just spoke. That was my private voice out loud as a Democrat. And yeah, and I hope our party gins this up much more as they would.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: If you get into office, people are going to say, release the list. I mean, if there's a problem, I will commit to release the list or what?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Yeah. Unless there's some national security secret here or something. And I know that leads to speculation about Mossad and other speculation. I mean, was he on the foreign intelligence list? And is there real implications to our national security? Why did he make all his money? I mean, I've got enough problems with homelessness and housing in California to worry about Jeffrey Epstein. But hey, they created this mess. Now they got to clean it up.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Governor, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question left for you is, have you received a sign from beyond?
--:-- Gavin Newsom: A sign? That's good. In the spirit of Epstein and sort of conspiracies, I immediately go to... Look, I don't know about that, but there's a spiritual aspect to me, meaning I'm a person of faith. I grew up in the church, went to a Jesuit university, quote the Bible often, many parts, one body. So I feel that connection to something bigger than myself, if for no other reason that I'm desperate for it.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: The person who wrote the question, I'll tell you, give you a little bit of a clue. They're referring to a late loved one that passed away.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: More specific?
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Yeah.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: Fascinating. I've never... You feel people's presence when you hear a song. You feel people's presence when you, you know, during season of the year. And, you know, I will say, all right, I will say, you've got me. And this was uncanny. My father passed away in his house in San Francisco. I came after in this case. There was no assisted suicide, but I came right after and visited him. Right outside the window was a peregrine falcon. Can't make this up. My father was passionate about peregrine falcons. I've never seen a peregrine. I grew up in San Francisco in my life. There was a peregrine falcon right on the balcony right after his death. My sister and I looked at each other. So you can't... Like that was the sign. True story. There's my answer.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Thank you. Thank you so much. I am really encouraged by the example you're setting for so many reasons. And the reason one of the biggest reasons that I'm super encouraged by the example you're setting is because you're doing what I've wished for so long for so many people in your position, your political position, which is to speak to the other side but also to get out there and to have conversations like this in this new medium of podcasting that is unfiltered, uncensored, and is long form. And I just always longed to see that from the Democratic Party, but they've hidden behind PR and sanitized messaging for so long, and you're bucking the trend. I was so happy when you sat down with Charlie Kirk because those are the conversations I want to see. And actually being in the same room made me both realize that there's a lot you have in common and also allowed me to compare the fundamental differences in person. But also it's so wonderful to get to know you as a man and where you come from because now I understand your motivations. I understand the decisions that I think you'd make going forward as president. And it feels like a great honor for you to have given me this time, but also as I said for your team not to tell me you can't talk about this, you can't talk about that, and just to let me talk about whatever I wanted to talk about. So thank you so much. And thank you for having me in your home state now of California. I guess I'm a kind of a half semi-resident or something. And yeah, I'm going to be watching with much curiosity to see how it plays out. And you present a new vision for America. I highly recommend everybody goes and checks out your podcast as well. I'm going to link it on the screen and below. This is Gavin Newsom where you do exactly that, you sit with people and have these conversations that are so unfortunately rare with people you often disagree with. It's a fantastic show and it has me absolutely hooked. And your book here as well, I'm going to recommend because it really shaped how I think about your philosophy. It's called Citizenville: How to Take the Town Square Digital and Reinvent Government, which talks a lot about social media and the role it plays. Thank you so much, Gavin. It's been an honour.
--:-- Gavin Newsom: It's been my honour. Thank you so much. Really grateful.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Thank you so much for the time. Appreciate it.
--:-- Steven Bartlett: Just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's a promise I'm going to make to you: I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. Thank you.
