Jürgen Klopp: Would You Go Back To Manage LFC...? The Real Reason I Fell In Love With Liverpool!

Steven Bartlett: It was an intense time. We had to win football games, but all the rest was on my plate as well. I need a break. And you cannot do that in that business. You cannot say, give me a year, see you later. So it begs the question, do you think you could ever go back and manage Liverpool again?

Jürgen Klopp: It's possible.

Steven Bartlett: So what would it take?

Jürgen Klopp: You change the club, you change the city, and you arrive at a time when clubs are in a period of dysfunction to bring that club back to its glory.

Steven Bartlett: And you did that over and over and over again. How?

Jürgen Klopp: To win in a very decisive moment, you have to be the best team. And to be the best team, everybody has to buy into that team and walk through fire together. How do I get people to walk through fire? I better go back to the start. Growing up, my mom was very caring. She loved people. And my dad had expectations. The problem was I was absolutely useless in most of the things, even with football. My teammates were better than me. And I thought I only can get on that level if I'm the first until the last minute. I was a warrior on the pitch, but it made me the guy I am today. And so my team plays a little bit more like a heavy metal band. Because you have 90 minutes and there's no guarantee to get anything. But the only chance to get something is to give you all. So you want to have the maximum success. Don't waste time with holding back.

Steven Bartlett: I want to know why Manchester United didn't...

Jürgen Klopp: No, they tried. But there are some reasons in that conversation which I didn't like.

Steven Bartlett: Arne Slot coming in after you and didn't change much. That's super smart, not changing much. And all of a sudden you win the league by some distance. But this year Liverpool have spent what, 450 odd million? You never had a transfer window like that.

Jürgen Klopp: Nobody ever told me that it's possible that we can spend that.

Steven Bartlett: You seem to always be successful. How does someone succeed you? You want to be able to become the best team in England. You need to...

[Audio shifts to a direct address from the host]

Steven Bartlett: Just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us. And this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24 people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's a promise I'm going to make to you: I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. Thank you.

[Interview resumes]

Steven Bartlett: To understand you and the man and the anomaly that you went on to be in your career and still are, what do I need to understand about your very earliest context where you came from? And how can you point out to me how that very early context created the person you are today and that everybody knows you to be?

Jürgen Klopp: I think we all are who we are because the environment we grew up. My dad was a salesman and my mom came from a family. My grandpa had a brewery and she worked there, blah, blah, blah, and all these kind of things. But her only purpose was her kids. She loved me more than her own life, definitely. And my dad had expectations. He loved me as well, but he had expectations when my mom didn't. So my mom was just happy that I was there, and my dad had always something where he was not really happy with. And all the things my dad wanted me to do, I loved doing. So he wanted me to be a sports guy. Each sport: tennis, skiing, football. That was his life. So he wanted that his son is good at that, and he loved doing it. If I would have been sitting at home and drawing or whatever, he would everyday take me out and say, "Go outside and play something." But then pretty quick, when I became better, it was never good enough. And he always... so that was the process. So that's how I was brought up. That's him. That's definitely him.

Steven Bartlett: Can I keep these pictures?

Jürgen Klopp: Of course you can.

Steven Bartlett: That's good. That's good.

Jürgen Klopp: Because I have them, but I'm not sure where.

Steven Bartlett: Yeah, exactly. Good looking guy. Was he a tough man?

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah. It's not long ago. I never got hit, whatever. Never, never, never. He was just... he wanted to bring the best out of me. I think that was what he wanted. Tough in a way how people were brought up in that time probably, but not tough, endless, that you thought you don't want to have to do anything with him. No, no, no, I loved him to bits, and he loved me. He was very proud but never said it and these kind of things. So he was a good guy, a really good guy. But with his son, he wanted him to be ambitious and was a bit afraid that I might be not ambitious enough.

Steven Bartlett: Competitive man, I hear.

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett: Reading about stories of him racing you on ski slopes and sprint races and never letting you win.

Jürgen Klopp: That's true. Who knows if it was right? Probably it was right. I don't know. It was not nice in a way. When you tell the story, it's like, my god, come on, let the poor boy win or whatever. They had no chance. It's just you stand on the touchline and you run to the halfway line.

Steven Bartlett: And when you look back over the course of your career, are there moments where you have flashbacks to lessons that he taught you, or principles or values that he taught you, that you think, "Gosh, I got that from my dad"?

Jürgen Klopp: The one skill I realized that my dad had without knowing that time, it was a skill: he could speak publicly. You don't know that you have that. I have it today. I know it. I don't care if a camera is in my face or whatever. I say what I have to say in that moment without being too worried what might people think about it. If I'm convinced it's right, I say it. Talking in public is not a problem. It's probably from him. My love for people, unintentionally, it's from my mom. So this mix of a very confident and a very caring dad and very caring mom is where I was brought up in the middle of it.

Steven Bartlett: And you wanted to be a doctor before then. You were aiming to be a doctor. That didn't work out.

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah, that's true.

Steven Bartlett: Why doctor?

Jürgen Klopp: No, it was always something I wanted to do. So in all this wonderful upbringing, it was pretty clear that money is an issue. Not in a sense that we didn't have enough. We always had kind of enough. But I remember discussions, bad discussions about money. Arguments, if you want, "Who spent that? Who spent that?" I was the little one. I just sat around and listened to it. But there was a moment in my life when I realized I have to earn a lot of money that I can solve it all. I wanted to earn money to not having this kind of discussions with my wife or with the kids or whatever. So it grew as a thought when you are a young man and you think, what could you do with life? And for me, it was clear, I cannot earn my money with football because in my mind I wasn't good enough. And then I got surprised by some people. They thought, "Oh, there's something that could be interesting."

Steven Bartlett: What did they see in you as a football player? What was it that they saw in you as a young man? Because I've got these wonderful photos of you as a young player and, oh my god.

Jürgen Klopp: So in my village, I was the best player in my village. So I scored the goals. I was the fastest. All this kind of physical talent. I was really fast. Later on, when I started sports science, I could jump far. I could jump high. All these kind of things. So it was a physical talent. The problem was small spaces, technique. That was my problem. So what they saw probably is the attitude. I was a warrior on the pitch. It was difficult to beat me, stuff like this, to get kicked out of the game or get me out of the game. I was really focused. I had a really good attitude for the game. But I didn't see it. So I was not happy. I was literally surprised by the approach from professional football clubs. I didn't think, "Oh, who's coming?" So it was like, the question was, "Are you number seven from the game before? Yeah? Oh, come on, let's have a chat. Do you want to come to Frankfurt?" That was the question.

Steven Bartlett: It was before that. It was '87. And you were 20 years old at the time when you went to Frankfurt?

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah.

Steven Bartlett: Well, I mean, a lot happens in your 20th year of life.

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah. A lot happens. That was a change. Wow. Yeah, I came to Frankfurt. It didn't take long that I met Mark's mom.

Steven Bartlett: Your son's mom, yeah.

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah, exactly. And then she got pregnant in December '88. I became a father.

Steven Bartlett: Were you scared? 20 years old, become a father?

Jürgen Klopp: Massively. When I heard she's pregnant, I wanted to run away. Go, "Oh God, it's not me." So the moment when I got aware of the fact that I will be a dad, I was really scared. The night, 13th of December 1988, when Mark was born, was the night when I became an adult. And the night who changed my life in the right direction. From that moment on, I was always more an adult than all the other people in my age group. So there were universities, there were parties, I couldn't go. There were holidays, I couldn't. I played football, low wages, third division Germany, had two other jobs, one in the morning, one at night, and playing semi-professional football. That taught me the discipline I didn't have to learn at home because I had no jobs to do in the house. So I got it a bit later, but it made me the guy I am today.

Steven Bartlett: Because of that experience, when you became a manager yourself, did that become a bit of a personal reference point to understand the individuals that you were managing? Because if you were managing a 21-year-old dad versus a 21-year-old that didn't have kids, did you understand them to be different? One is, in your own words, one is potentially a man and an adult, and one doesn't know what that is yet.

Jürgen Klopp: Yes, of course. I don't just want to say I like people. I'm super curious. Everybody has a story to tell, so I want to hear it.

Steven Bartlett: I think I asked that question in part because I heard stories that Sir Alex Ferguson would prefer players who had a girlfriend or a wife and kids. And I was wondering if there's any truth to that, if they have a different stability.

Jürgen Klopp: Oh, it's probably... yeah, a couple of problems. You can have a great partner, married or not, and then everything is fine. It's the wrong partner, it's not great. You have no partner, not great for some. And you have too many, it's not great. So there are so many things in life. So I never thought about that. I heard about it. I coached Germany, very successful manager, Otto Rehagel. I love him to bits. Fantastic guy. He had as well, I think he said it once as well, that he wants married players because they go home and stuff like this. That's one part of the personality, but not the overwhelming or the most decisive or whatever. So it's like, and you need, football is a football game, you need the cheeky ones as well. So you need them. The street smart, you need as well. They get out of situations in life and on the pitch, stuff like this. So it's a mix of everything. That's what I loved about football teams. I treated them, let me say, 50% of the time completely the same, and 50% what he needs, what he needs, what he needs, but in front of the other teammates. So players came to me, "Why do you treat me like that? You would never say that to him." No, because he's from Argentina, grew up without a window, and you are from Munich and everything was fine. You want me to treat you like him? Really. To bring all these people from different areas in the world together, you cannot expect that they all take the same way. It's just not possible. Growing up in Germany is obviously different to growing up in Senegal. It is different. But then we come together in our own dressing room and then everybody says, "This is the rule for all of you." And yeah, be in time, of course, for easy. But then all the other stuff, come on, calm down. You want a football team full of different skill sets, full of different talent, full of different personality. You want that because that's what you need. That's what makes you unpredictable. But then you put just one, I don't know, helmet over it and say, "So that's for all of you. That's how we go." There are moments in the game where they have to act like this. In all the other moments, they have to be themselves. So treat them like that.

Steven Bartlett: This is one of the most shocking, counterintuitive ideas that I heard from players with other managers, specifically because I've just interviewed so many of Sir Alex Ferguson's former players. One of the shocking things they all said was that he treated people differently. And to hear you say the same thing as well, it really is the opposite of what you hear in business. In business, you hear that you have to be a consistent leader, that you have to be consistent, treat people the same. But in the world of football, people like you tell me that's my trick.

Jürgen Klopp: I think in business, in life, it's the same. So to lead, that's number one thing, you lead yourself. So that's the first one. In the morning, you stand up, you have to kick your own butt and say, "Come on, it's not a great day. But anyhow, we go." So, and then the people you lead, you need to understand to do it properly. So now that means you talk to them, you listen to them, you ask them, "Where are you from? What's your background? What are we doing here and there? And why did you do that?" And stuff like this. So it means it's already in that conversation, it's clear he's different to the other guy. It's not about the rules like punctuality, early in, late out, not about these kind of things. But how can we get the best out of people if we treat them all the same? It's crazy. It's in business. I don't think it is like that, but I only worked in this football business, or maybe it's just working here. I cannot see that. For me, it's super important that you really pick the individual from where it stands, not from where you want it to be. No, actually where it actually is.

Steven Bartlett: Can you give me an example that I would know of two people that you treated differently and why you made the decision to treat them differently based on their origin?

Jürgen Klopp: So you have a young player as an example. So Trent Alexander-Arnold comes up to the first team. And then you have James Milner, who is already, I don't know, 31 or whatever he was at that time. So you do James makes clear first and foremost that Trent doesn't go crazy because he sorts all these kind of things. But there's so many things by just as an example. But James doesn't have to do this and that because you know he is doing it anyway. So for Trent, you still have to educate the boy. This example which you probably didn't think of, but it explains how different they are. They're different age groups. One is 16 or 17 and the other one is 33. So that shows already that's not possible. So you are talking about the rules in football. So everybody has to work hard. Everybody has to do it. In my case, everybody has to defend the shit out of the opposition team. So that's everybody has to buy into that. There's no, no, no, no. I always said, if you're not Lionel Messi, you have to defend. You have to defend because I never had Leo Messi, so they all had to defend, for example. Everybody has to do that. But then to get there, that they really grow together as a group, in a group everybody accepts that they are different. Otherwise we are, I don't know, an army. And they are different. But it's not just because we wear the same shirt, we all have our own qualities. So to bring them to life or let them shine, yeah, you have to get treated in the right way. And that's what I love to figure out. How is that possible? That was the conversations I had with players during a season. Of course there were football talks, but we had already enough meetings. The most important conversations were the private conversations. So when the player is not training well, could be that he just is not ready for training. Had a drink last night, didn't sleep enough. Or you ask. So that's all what you think. He looks like he didn't sleep enough. Bring him in, ask him what's going on. And you will be surprised. Most of the time, they either slept enough or didn't sleep enough for the right reason because something happened and nobody could sleep. They had no drink, blah, blah, blah, but they lost focus right now because massive problems at home. Without asking, we'll never find out. So here's one guy with a problem. Here's another guy. He's flying. Don't treat them the same. So one needs more support and the other one you need to bring down a little bit. All these kind of things, that's how you work with people. In the end, what you want is that the job of a leader is to make the target, the aim, the final destination, whatever, that clear, like the sun, that everybody's automatically going there. And you don't have to push them every day and say, "By the way, there's the sun. Let's run there," so that they know it. On the way there, you support them in different ways. It's not so important what I want to say in a moment of anger or whatever. It happens. Emotion does that to us, especially around a football game. You shout something. "Did I really say that? Did I?" I did. But it's not so important in a talk conversation with people which depend on you, you are responsible for. It's not so important what you say. It's much more important what they need to hear. It's not them telling them what they want to hear. No, but they need to hear to deal with their situation. So that's what leadership means. Not just telling them off for whatever. That doesn't work. That doesn't work. Try to understand why. And that was, I love that part in my job. And I still do that, if you want, right now. Not with world-class players all the time or coaches, point directors, whatever. They're all young, younger than me at least. And that's how I understand my role and understood my role.

Steven Bartlett: Was there certain players in your team that you felt you could be tougher with and others that you felt you could never really be tough with because that would hurt their performance?

Jürgen Klopp: I'm reflecting. Of course. Yeah, of course. You have Sadio Mané and Mo Salah are two top examples. So in the end, there are not a lot of people who saw it coming. We knew they are great. We knew they're massive talents. They have fantastic potential. But they were not who they became later on. In that time, it's not that they came to Liverpool and said, "Boss, just want to tell you, I defend anyway, so we don't have to talk about that. Just explain to me how we do it." And we obviously, to be successful as a football team, you have to organize a football team to get stability. To get stability, you need to find a way to defend properly and together. If you have that, based on that, they can start flying. Then let's talk about the football part. And now there are obviously no defenders, but we were famous for our pressing and counter-pressing. I talked a lot to them, and the way we spoke about it was just 100% clear. You want to win more often than not. You want to have the maximum success. You want to be able to become the best team in England at one point. Yeah? Okay, then do that. Come on. So, agreement. And then from there, we went on. But then with years, and not because they changed or whatever, here a little bit less, there a little bit less, I have to decide, do I go for them like I would go for a young boy playing in that position and say, "Come on, turn, run, fight, jump," and take them off in a moment? No, of course not. You don't do that in that moment. It's a story in the newspaper. We had this one argument, I think, with Mo at West Ham at the sideline when it didn't start and I brought him on and he was not happy. The problem, our problems then are always in public. It was not a real big thing, but in the moment we didn't agree, definitely. So how do you deal with that the next day? I think I can say we have a very good relationship today, even though on that day it didn't look like. And that's all the things. So you learn, you try to do it the right way, you try to show the players respect, but at one point it's never enough and you have to accept that as well. Because the players they grow, they get bigger and bigger and bigger. And at one point you hear years later, "He never spoke to me." Whatever another player from wherever says about a former coach, about me, about Jose Mourinho, "He never spoke to me." I don't know, we spoke a lot. We just can't remember. And we didn't speak what you wanted. I didn't tell you what you wanted to hear. So you can never make it 100% right. But you can only do as good as it's possible for you. And that's what I tried all the time, to create a relationship where even when we had arguments, we always found a way out, me and the player. And it never got carried into the team that I lost respect, they lost respect for me because I acted that way. We always stayed together. We always found a way that they understood, "Okay, it's really important that we get through this, that they sorted, the boss sorted with him or the boss sorted with us, that we can go from here again."

Steven Bartlett: From a very young age, one of the things I found really surprising is, as I was going through all of these football teams you played in as a young man, it appeared that you were always the captain, repeatedly assigned to be the captain. And I wondered why. What was it that you were doing from a very young age that meant all of your coaches back then asked you to be captain of the team?

Jürgen Klopp: I have no clue. The coach I learned the most from, Wolfgang Frank, when he came back to Mainz, he was at Mainz, very successful spell, left. And then we were in trouble again. He came back and I was the captain. And we had a very experienced player from a first division team coming to Mainz in the second division. Lars Schmidt was his name. And Wolfgang said, "Jürgen, can we talk?" "Yeah, of course." "I want to make Lars the captain." "Oh yeah, good." "So then you are not captain." "Yeah, I know." So it was exactly like that. It meant nothing to me. So my role was not... I was a leader in the team, not on purpose. I was on the pitch an aggressive leader, which I didn't like. So heart rate above 140, I lost it very often in a very, very not good way. So really aggressive talk, shouting at everybody and all that. Really, I had to, very often I had to apologize to my teammates.

Steven Bartlett: Where did that come from? Because you, I don't know, there's a real dichotomy with you because you're such a sweet, kind guy. You have your mother in you in terms of the empathy and the love of people. But then there's this other explosive part.

Jürgen Klopp: I didn't like it at all. And I was afraid when I stopped playing that I'd take it over. So I was emotional. I had moments where I lost it with referees and stuff like that. But generally, I'm a very calm person. So people think because I'm probably, I think I'm a motivator or whatever I do, get up in the morning and come in the dressing room and say, "Come on, boys, today we go again." Not at all. I mean, it happens from time to time, but not that often. No, I have no explanation for it. If I would have had an explanation, it was a little bit... I knew I'm not good enough, actually. My teammates were better than me. And I thought I only can get on that level if I squeeze everything out from an aggressive point of view, stuff like this. So that was a bit my explanation because they are so much better. But if I calm down and want to play cool football, yeah, I'm out.

Steven Bartlett: You eventually become the manager of Mainz. You're my age when you get that job, and the former manager's been sacked. The club have never gotten to the Bundesliga, the first division in Germany. You don't have experience managing a club of this size or scale previously. The chairman comes to you, the owner comes to you and says they want you to do the job. Why did they want you to do the job?

Jürgen Klopp: Because I didn't find anybody else in the short period of time. So we played Sunday and the next game was on Wednesday. The idea was just to do that game. So the whole story is that Eckhard Krautzun, the manager at that time, we lost the game on Sunday and we had a little camp, a crisis camp, let me say, because on Wednesday was another very important game. We had to play, so he took us to a hotel that we stay there, have two good sessions and then we go for this very, very important and maybe decisive game. And at night we have a meeting with all the players. And he said, "Gentlemen, I want to ask one question. Do you still trust me? Are you still behind me? I don't want to answer now. I order beer for all of you. I go out, half an hour I come back and you tell me." So he goes out. We just bring some beer in. We sit there, look at each other and think, "Huh?" and discuss a little bit. And I was not captain at the time. I was not the captain. But then it was like that. The decision: no.

Steven Bartlett: What? He asked?

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah.

Steven Bartlett: Why? You asked?

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah, no. So it's like we have a discussion. Yeah, the majority. Some players didn't speak, but it was clear. If you ask, the answer's no. So it's like that. I'm not captain, but the captain says, "Globo, you tell him. I tell him why." "Oh, okay." But he comes in. He comes in and that actually no. And he was shocked. He was really shocked. But like, he didn't expect it. It's more like a little thing to do and then we say yes, we go through that together, something like that. But we said no.

Steven Bartlett: Why?

Jürgen Klopp: Because he was not the right person.

Jürgen Klopp: Because we played bad and he was... I love Eckhard Krautzen, but that time for that team, he was just not the right coach. That can happen. It doesn't say anything about you. But we did wrong training, wrong lineups, wrong tactics, wrong everything. So that's how things go bad, in the wrong direction, in that time.

And we didn't have to make the decision who can take over or whatever. We just could say no. He could have said, "Okay, I will prove you wrong," or whatever. But he ran out and said, "Tomorrow morning, nine o'clock training." Okay. And then he wanted to do a press conference where he wanted to tell the public that he kicks out all the experienced players and starts now the rest of the season and plays only the young kids. So I was one of the old players, I was 33, but I didn't know that that should happen.

So he called the sporting director, "We need a press conference and I want to talk to them and tell them we change everything." And the sporting director says, "Yeah, we do a press conference, but the subject will be 'Sack you'." Okay, so done. And now they didn't have a coach. And then they called me and said, "For that game, can you do it?" And I said, "Yeah, I can do it." And I did it and we won the game.

They didn't find a manager, so we had Sunday and other games. The first game we won 1-0, the second game we won 3-1. From the first seven games we won six and drew one. So we stayed in the league pretty comfortably. Comfortably is incredible. We were a bunch of friends. There were all my friends and I was their boss. They had to tell me that from now on, in the coaches' dressing room, "What are you doing here? Here's the coaches, that's your office." Okay. The first night we had a twin room, yeah. So I got one more game to sleep there with my friend, you know, in the same room. And then next day they all told me, "Yeah, you have to get your own room." "Oh, okay." But all the rest, we were a real bunch of friends and they respected me from the first second.

Steven Bartlett: What was your approach going into that? You go from being a player to a manager of these boys. What's in your mind? Are you thinking, "I'm just going to let them do whatever they want to do"?

Jürgen Klopp: We had Wolfgang Frank, the best manager we all had when we were at Mainz. He was an exception. We, at Mainz, we were a football team who lost all the games when the other team had better players. I think it sounds normal, but in football, it's a way to win games anyway. We never had that. So then Wolfgang Frank comes in and implements four in the back, ball-orientated defending, and we did nothing else than that. And we changed overnight into the one opponent nobody wanted to play against. We were like machines. We were like machines. We are not great football. We were like machines. There were games our goalkeeper didn't touch the ball once. We were just defending. It was new that time. So it was really for all of them. That means we all became believers in that.

Then Wolfgang left, and none of the other coaches could do that. None. There was no connection to the coaches after Wolfgang. So I was one of the players who benefited massively from Wolfgang Frank, and now I arrived, and the only thing I did, the two sessions I had were both exactly about that. Four for two, ball-orientated movements, and we go for MSV Duisburg that time. They were third in the table. We go for them like nobody else.

But I like these moments. I like to find a reason why it makes sense, why we give our absolute all in a moment like this, why we don't invest the minimum, why we invest the maximum, why we would regret it if we don't do it, how better life is if we do it, how much more fun it is if we do it. I love these moments. I told them and from that moment on, nobody wanted to play against us anymore. So we were like, wow, animals. It was great. It was a fantastic time. Same team pretty much changed overnight.

Steven Bartlett: So you fixed the defensive situation, the formation, and you also told the players in that dressing room a story of why we had to give everything. "They wrote us off," whatever you can do.

Jürgen Klopp: Most of the time it was real life, but that time, in my meetings later on, I never prepared in a way where I wrote something down. Our life was preparation. What happened during the week with us in the world, that was preparation for a meeting. I never thought long about it, just remembered it when I needed it. We spoke, I told the boys. But that time, they needed one person to believe in them. And I did. It was not that I had to convince myself, I have to tell them now. Before that season, I told in an interview, "This is the best squad Mainz 05 ever had. It would be really difficult for me to play, but good for us that the team is so good." And then we were in a hopeless situation before I took over. So when I became the manager, I was the one who thought, "This team is incredible. Nobody knows it yet, but we will make sure in a few weeks they will have a sense, at least."

Steven Bartlett: How important did that prove to be? This idea of making sure that the players you have throughout your career had belief in themselves?

Jürgen Klopp: That's all. It's all about that. It's not football. It's life. You had no, when you started your podcast, people probably told you, "Well, that might be something for you." But you were not sure. And then with each little thing here and there, oh, how many people listened to your first podcast? Do you remember?

Steven Bartlett: I think I read it somewhere. 40? Something around that. It was under 100, yeah.

Jürgen Klopp: So, it's a start. And all the rest is if you want history, and that always in life like that, that it just give it a chance. Of course it makes sense you believe in yourself, but not everybody can do that. But then if you meet somebody who helps you with that, who has a perspective, who can see something in you, then tell them. Why you should keep it for yourself? "Oh, my God, I think he's a talent, she's a talent, whatever. She's good at that, he's good at that." We don't tell each other. So where's the problem?

Steven Bartlett: Did someone do that for you? Told you that you should believe in yourself? They saw something in you.

Jürgen Klopp: Once I said, I never struggled with confidence, but I don't know why. That's the truth. But it's true. I never struggled with confidence. There's no reason for it. My two best friends in school were genius. And we sat together doing exactly this, reading the same books, invested the same amount of time. They had the best A-levels in school. And I was far off that. So a normal reaction would be, "I'm a dump, obviously." But I never thought that. I don't really know why that happened. So I took it how it was. I thought, "Oh, respect. You can remember all these things crazy. I can't."

Steven Bartlett: But you had lots of players that struggled with confidence.

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah, yeah. I try to create a situation to make sure that the player, if they are not confident yet, they are confident. But, you know, there are moments when they lose it. Confidence is like a little flower and constantly somebody steps on it. It's like that. Oh, and then it's growing again. And oh, now we are confident again. Stuff like this. In football, it's really difficult because you cannot play without making mistakes. So if a mistake costs you confidence, that's a real challenge. But I try to, "If you would believe as much in yourself as I do, that would be a start. But as long as you cannot do that, just trust me. So you are good because I don't work with other players. I don't waste time." And it's true, I don't. So I really see something, and if I see it, I'm patient enough to work on it. Much more patient than the public wants me to be. But of course the idea is that one day I help you learn flying, but in the end you have to fly yourself obviously. I cannot do that for you. That's what it is. Football. You have to perform alone. They cannot look at me, "What should I do?" And that's my job, to prepare them as good, to make the education, the coaching as wide as they just pick for me. That's the idea. But not too much as well. It was a good time in my life doing all these kind of things. I worked with some of the best footballers in the world. Really good time.

Steven Bartlett: Do you sometimes have to lie in public to protect a player's confidence? I wonder this because you see managers come out and say, "Oh, he can't play because he's injured," or whatever. And they say things. But I wonder sometimes if managers are protecting players because they're struggling.

Jürgen Klopp: Yes, we protect players. I'm not sure I ever had to lie, to be honest. I don't know. But we protect players. Super important. So, for me, super important. He lacks confidence, that's in football obvious, you see that. You run one-on-one on a goalie and you don't make it, you can see it's because you don't have confidence. That's how it is. There's a lot of other reasons, it can be wind, weather, ball, opponent, it's there, but you do it once, you do it twice, three times, yes, that's not good for the confidence of nobody. Having that in training, the job is not to talk too much about it, to give him a chance to get confidence back with the things you do in training, that it doesn't last forever. So the one thing you have to protect players from is public. Try to, because they are ruthless in moments. They don't care until something happens or whatever. Supporters, sometimes, I think we were really lucky with that. We created that bond between the supporters and the team that they were not angry. Disappointed, yes, but not angry in a way that "I don't want to see them anymore." So that helped. But of course you have to protect them sometimes. You have to protect them sometimes from themselves as well. So that's the job.

Steven Bartlett: Did you have to involve yourself much with social media usage of your team members? And did you ever consider someone's social media usage when you were considering signing them to join the club? Because I think, as a Manchester United fan, some of our players are posting indirect messages and little emojis and commenting things, and I just think, "Oh, God, troublemaker."

Jürgen Klopp: We had situations that players texted us or posted something at night and deleted it, but I still got aware of it. Not that I read it, but people tell me, "Oh, last night, doesn't that happen? At three o'clock, three o'clock." "Okay, what do you say?" "Yeah, this and that." "Oh, what do I do in these situations?" Even deleted. I go in the dressing room and they all lie on the house. "Last night, this and that happened. Got deleted. I know what's there. But maybe you want to tell everybody? You would ask them to say in front of everybody." Yeah. Not nice, eh? The thing is, I don't go for them and tell them, "How can you write that?" or whatever. So I said, "Come on, somebody told me, so I know it. Not important really, but come on, tell the whole team what he wanted to say." And then he started, it's not great in that situation. I don't like to bring people in there, but I think that's a deserved punishment for something like that. But actually the effect is nobody ever did it again because nobody wants to be in that situation in a dressing room, sitting there and be the one who has to explain something he did last night or whatever. I discussed individual problems, if it was okay, in front of the team. If it was important for the team. "Yeah, come on, explain why you did that. Why you went out that long. What happened in the last two hours?"

[Pause]

Steven Bartlett: This photo here is of things going well for you.

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah.

Steven Bartlett: Mines?

Jürgen Klopp: Before I had that to get here, these are tears. The tears the year and two years before were not for the same reason. So you probably know we didn't get promoted for a point and a goal. First a goal, first a point, then a goal. And then this happened. That was the first day when it really went well.

Steven Bartlett: So this was the day that you got promoted for the first time in the history to the Bundesliga.

Jürgen Klopp: But before winning that, I learned how to lose. This is very important, I would say. I think that again, to learn, even though you want to be as successful as somehow possible, you have to accept that from time to time you lose. And then when you keep going, you have a good chance if you learn from it. A defeat is a defeat if you don't learn from it. If you learn from it, it's a very, very important information. And obviously in football, we have a lot of opportunities to get beat and opportunities to learn from it. But this was the biggest relief in my life, not happiness. That was just pure relief. The pressure was mounting. I was crazy. Not only myself, nobody, not from outside. I don't know even what the outside world thought. But to make it happen that year, that was really special.

Steven Bartlett: But it took two years of coming close, yeah, and dealing with the disappointment.

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah, true.

Steven Bartlett: When I spoke to Jamie Carragher, I asked Jamie Carragher this earlier this morning. I said to him, "What was he curious about with you?" And this is actually what he said. He said, "There were so many near misses in your career, whether it was in the Champions League or when you were head to head with Man City in that season and you were one point shy of winning the league." And his question was, he's fascinated with how you were so good at dealing with the disappointment of near misses, because sometimes near misses can cripple people. They can turn them into a downward spiral. It can be like the plant that got stood on. It can crush someone's confidence. But it appears through your career that near misses ended up being positive forces for you.

Jürgen Klopp: It's not that I knew that always, but we spoke about very early what made me the person I am. These people, of course, mom, dad, my faith as well. And I knew always that I'm not here to get everything. I'm here to give everything. So that doesn't help in the moment when you fail for a point. But in the general understanding as a person, of course, it helps. So I'm not surprised that I fail. I don't think I see myself as a constant winner in my mind. I see myself as a constant trier. So I don't know constant winners, but there might be some out there. But I just can't imagine a world where it would be like that. All the people running around there, all the happy people there win all the time. Nobody wins all the time. Nobody does. So it's all about dealing with the things you want and not get, and then you want it more or not anymore or whatever. So the moments were not great, but I learned it here. Doing it that day changed the destiny of the club of Mainz 05. That's how it is. My destiny, the players' destiny changed everything. So we wanted it that hard, but we learned before we have to try harder. And that's what I always took. If you don't get the result you want, try again and try harder.

Steven Bartlett: It was Christian that gave you that job, wasn't it?

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah, Mr. Heidel. Christian Heidel.

Steven Bartlett: I spoke to Christian Heidel. He made his English is very funny, isn't he? Yeah. I've had to translate it for the viewers, but I'm going to actually play what he said to you in German so you can hear it.

[Audio clip plays: Christian Heidel speaking in German]

Christian Heidel: [In German, subtitled] Global, yes dear Global. We've known each other for exactly 35 years now. First, we were both players. Then you subsequently became my esteemed coach. It all started in Mainz. You changed an entire club. You changed an entire city. Back then, we were promoted to the Bundesliga together. And today, Mainz has been in the Bundesliga for over 25 years. Back then, that was actually unimaginable. You go to Dortmund, change your club, change an entire city, and win every title there is to win. You move to Liverpool, and the same thing happens for the third time. You change your club, you change your city. I don't think any coach before you has ever achieved that. And I'm always asked what makes Jürgen Klopp special. To this day, he has simply remained a genuine person, always authentic, which is incredibly important. Apart from the fact that you are of course an outstanding expert. I hope we'll see each other again soon on our little shared island in Mallorca. And have a great day and lots of fun with your podcast.

[End of audio clip]

Steven Bartlett: Wow.

Jürgen Klopp: [Emotional] You did a little.

Steven Bartlett: A little. I told you. You changed a club. You changed the city. You did that over and over and over again. You went on and did that again at Dortmund, winning a huge range of awards there at a time when they weren't considered to be hopeful. And then you went off to Liverpool and did the same. I was reading about how when you traveled to Liverpool, there was 30,000 Liverpool fans watching your plane fly across the channel to Liverpool because they were all very excited. And you arrived at a time when they were in a period of dysfunction, kind of similar to where Manchester United are now, I guess. And you managed to bring them up from being a team that were dysfunctional, hadn't won, there was a lot of pessimism around the club. I think as a Man United fan, I was hoping and wondering that if Liverpool would ever come back, I was hoping they would never come back again. But you brought them back, annoyingly. When you arrived at Liverpool that day, you said in that press conference that you're "the normal one." I remember that. What did you observe when you arrived? What was the culture? What was the feeling? And what was your first thought about what you had to do to bring that club back to its glory?

Jürgen Klopp: The feeling I got, I had roughly a week to think about everything from the first call to the signature.

Steven Bartlett: Did you have other offers from other clubs?

Jürgen Klopp: Oh, in that moment, not. But in the summer I had a lot of offers. I mean, I finished at Dortmund, but in that moment it was just Liverpool. But it was kind of destiny because I didn't want to... It was not... We were on a family holiday in Lisbon with the two boys. Ulla and I sitting there, phone goes. My agent. Why is he calling? Boys look at my face and say, "Liverpool." And the both, "Yes!" The boys.

Steven Bartlett: Yeah.

Jürgen Klopp: And Ulla looks, "What? What is it?" And she didn't see my lips when I spoke. "What?" And realized, "Oh, my God. We start again." Before she knew, we will go to Liverpool.

Steven Bartlett: Why did your boys...?

Jürgen Klopp: Oh, yeah, come on. If you're not a Man United fan, you know what Liverpool means to people. And they loved it. We fell instantly in love with that club.

Steven Bartlett: Did Manchester United have a call?

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah, I spoke to them. So in the year when Alex retired, they spoke to me. Yeah, of course, they were interested at one point. So I was, that time, I would have been interested. So I was a young, I had a sensational team at Dortmund. My God. So somebody probably thought, "What is he doing there?" Later on, I heard that my players, Hendo, Adam Lallana, James Milner, that they flew to Real Madrid when we played the semi-final in the Champions League to watch us and wanted to see what is Dortmund doing? "My God, what a football that is." I mean, you can't get bigger compliments. It's really good.

Steven Bartlett: I want to know why Manchester United didn't...

Jürgen Klopp: No, no, no, they tried. It was the wrong time, wrong moment. For me, I had a contract at Dortmund. I wouldn't have left, not really for nobody in that time. They just needed a manager, but the manager they wanted in that case now was one of a few options, I think.

Steven Bartlett: So it was you that turned down Manchester United, not Manchester United turning you down?

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah, that way. We need someone else on negotiations. No, no, no, he's not there anymore, the guy who negotiated that. So there are now other people in charge. It's long ago, long ago.

Steven Bartlett: So why wouldn't a guy like Manchester United, often known as the biggest club in the world, why wouldn't you take that job? Why didn't you take that job?

Jürgen Klopp: Manchester United, the great Manchester United. No, it's just typical. We are now not in a private space. So there are some reasons what the people in that conversation told me, which I didn't like.

Steven Bartlett: Oh, really?

Jürgen Klopp: So United was that big. "We get all the players we want. We are like, we can this, we get him, we get him, we get him." And I was sitting there. So it was not my project. It didn't feel like my... It was the wrong time, but on top of that, it was not my project. I didn't want to bring back... I don't know, Paul is a sensational player, my God, but these things don't work usually. But these kind of things, or Cristiano, my God, we all know that he's the best player, or together with Messi, the best player in the world. But bringing him back never helps. In that time, in 2013, it was obviously not about Cristiano, maybe about Paul. I'm not even sure when, don't get the numbers together. But it was just the idea is, "We bring the best players together and then let's go." It wasn't about the football. No, not at all. And I sat there and was like, "Ah, nah. I am not sure. That's not for me."

So then the pure, pure football project comes up with Liverpool and a sensational talk with Mike Gordon. That really important as well. Like, he, the owner, I know John and Tom of course as well, but Mike was responsible for us. I wanted, after the talk, I want to be his friend. He's such a good guy. So that's how it started. And in the end, yeah, it was pretty special.

Steven Bartlett: I find this fascinating because as a Manchester United fan, I observed from the moment Sir Alex Ferguson left, we adopted a very different approach and we brought in all these massive name players: Di Maria, Falcao, Ibrahimović, Pogba, Ronaldo. And we failed. And it taught me something as an entrepreneur about what matters more. And actually, when I read through your philosophy, it's quite clear in your philosophy that you prefer attitude and character versus how many Instagram followers you've got and what you've done in the past.

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah, of course.

Steven Bartlett: And I wanted to get your take on why you think the last, this is very selfish of me, the last sort of 15 years at Manchester United haven't worked out as an objective observer. I need to know. You're a man that was able to take teams and make them successful. And we are currently underdogs in many regards because of the last 15 years. What is it that we've missed in that time? What have we overlooked in your view?

Jürgen Klopp: I know you don't want to hear that. I didn't think a second since I joined Liverpool about what Man United did right or wrong. I just did. So it's like I buy into a situation. So I went to Liverpool and that moment you became our opponent. Not my enemy, but a very important opponent. One who is much more fun to beat than maybe other clubs. With Everton. I know so many Everton fans in Liverpool. We lived there for nine years. So I know so many people, great people. So absolutely. But then you go to the game and think, "Oh, my God, that's something different." Not I make that up. It's like that. But I really didn't think.

But always in football, it's like this. And again, like in life, you have a problem, and you only try to find a solution for now, knowing you have two days later another problem. You know it, but it's such for now. Just find a solution for that problem. There's no mid, no long term. So generally, "Okay, we have to deal with that for another day or two, and then we can sort it." And that means in our sense, "We have to deal with that for a year or two, and then we can make a big step." Then in our case, in football, contracts are running out, player goes anyway, we can sell him, we can do this. But because you're in such a rush all the time, just because you want to or have to win the next game, a little bit like that, being now in a situation, probably United, in the years when they were not happy, they would buy the time from that time. Jose becoming second, and nobody was really happy there, and you think, "Oh, remember that. In that time, second was not good enough." And now you are not even close to that. But that's not a Man United story for me. It's just a football story. It's always like that in the world of football. You win, you are the greatest. You lose, you know nothing about the game. You draw, you are boring. So that's not constant. And it's only about your own idea what you really want to do and where you want to go.

And everything in life is about development. Today, you were not the same 10 years ago. I was not the same 10 years ago. So it means the time between then and now counts. So if it counts, for me, the next 10 years do the same. So it's important what I do. It's important what I see in a year, two, three. So I have to plan my own life, mid and long term, as much as I can do that, and especially the destiny and the future of a football club. A player can score a goal, can score five goals, will never solve the problems if you have real problems. And I don't know the United problems. Liverpool was the same. It's not about that. On the day when we lost and sold Phil Coutinho, that was not the day when I thought, "Oh, good that we have the money." I lost a player I wanted to work with for the next 10 years, if you want. It was not that I thought, "And we can invest it." Yeah, we invested it smartly. That's true. But it's not that we found a player for the position and sorted that. We had to sort differently. But we found two really solid, solid and becoming world-class players with Alisson and Van Dijk. That was for the future to go from there. And now that's the difference, I think.

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What I love about football is the analogies to the world I'm in, which is the world of business, where you can watch a team like we're seeing, I think, Crystal Palace at the moment, who objectively don't have maybe the best players in the world, they don't have the most money. Bournemouth as well.

Jürgen Klopp: Bournemouth as well, yeah.

Steven Bartlett: But they're doing something which is creating this magic. And it's this wonderful narrative of you don't need to have the most talent or resources to have the best outcome. So what is that gap between... and that's... There must be something.

Jürgen Klopp: Now, look, it's a situation, a moment in the situation where Crystal Palace and Bournemouth is massively different to the situation for United. If Bournemouth wins a game 1-0 and doesn't perform particularly well, you take it and you go on. I'm not sure you would really find an article in the newspaper about it. Just win it and go.

But United is United. United, each step is under focus. And they're like, "What? Oh, they won, but he didn't play great." So they win a game and then somebody doesn't perform well, so pick him out and go for him full throttle. You think, "Wow." So the coach has to pick him up again, "No, no, it's all right," stuff like this, and the next one and the next.

They are different, completely different situations. The only problem you have now, in the time you try to sort your problems, all the other clubs improve their situations. So Liverpool has an incredible squad, yes. Are they 100% happy right now with the three defeats? No, probably not, but incredible squad. Arsenal, incredible squad. City, City. I mean, and I want to strike back, there's already three clubs. Chelsea, in that time when everybody thought, "Do they have an overview about their transfer market? Do they know who they own and who they loan and stuff like this?" Obviously, somehow it pays off. So they have already five clubs. They are above you. Are you happy with position six? No.

So, and here's the problem. Should you be happy theoretically with position six? Maybe this year and build on that. So find a reason. Find a reason to enjoy the situation again. Find a reason to enjoy a 1-0 victory, 2-0 victory at home. Whoever, against whoever. Southampton, try to enjoy that. Really, be happy, go home. And not listening to others who tell you then.

For Southampton, that's what we had years ago when we decided after a draw against West Brom, to say thank you to the supporters. We stand in front of the Kop and hold his other hand and said, "Thank you." And then the press conference, Tony Poole said, "What a world we are living in, when Liverpool with the money they spent celebrate a point against West Brom." Thank you. But it's your choice how you grow together again.

Steven Bartlett: And I think after all the years now without a lot of good football, they need to find a way to grow together again. I fully believe in Ruben Amorim. I think he's a man that focused on culture, and I like how honest he is as well. And I think with the team that they have around them, with people like Jason Wilcox and Ineos, who I've met, and Colette and all the others that are there, I think we've never been in a better place. I personally feel like that because I just think they're aiming for more long-term things. They're aiming at more long-term solutions.

Jürgen Klopp: The only problem is you have no clue about football, but besides that, that's a small problem, so yeah, good on you.

Steven Bartlett: Good on you. But I have faith.

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah, that's great, isn't it nice?

Steven Bartlett: I don't know if all my friends do, but I certainly do. And the only reason I have faith is because I see the club aiming at more long-term things now and not buying players because they have loads of Instagram followers.

When you got that phone call from Liverpool and they asked you to come and join, you said the reason you chose Liverpool is because they felt like a football project versus Manchester United, who seemed to be a bit more, less football oriented. But it's not the same year.

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah, two years.

Steven Bartlett: Two years before. I'm wondering, what is it about their proposal that made you think it was a football project?

Jürgen Klopp: The situation. I knew the club. I knew the team. So if you look at, on top of that, I didn't think it that way, but when Alex left, it was... they became champion in his last year, but it was not that the team was one you build a future on. So that's how it is when you come in, it's a bit built to fail, if you want it. But I didn't see it that way, and that time it had other reasons. But if I would have thought longer about it, it would have been probably... yeah. So David Moyes, fantastic, fantastic manager, what he proves every year, couldn't do the job. And since then, it's a bit of a problem. So a new team needs time. He was stitched up, so needs time.

So Liverpool, the team, as I said when I came, nobody likes the team. Not even the team likes the team. I like the team. I knew the players. I saw when Bobby Firmino moved there, I said, "Oh, that's a smart transfer." I knew Christian Benteke. I loved Divock Origi. I knew Jordan Henderson. I knew Adam Lallana. I know plenty of players. And Hurd only, "Ah, kind of good enough." And I thought, "Well, let's see." So I like the team. So that's the football team. Proper football, super attitude. I mean, just on day one I could have played Henderson, Milner, and Adam together in midfield. Maybe I did, I don't even know my first line. But it's a proper engine room. It's smart players. It's people who really want to perform, want to work hard and all these kind of things. What do you need for a start?

I knew Liverpool was not the same club than they were before. It's not that I went into the shiny room. I played there a year before with Dortmund in the pre-season, and I was massively disappointed about the dressing rooms. I remember you have these pictures in your mind, you think, "Oh my God, it's Anfield." And you walk in and make two steps into the dressing room and you run against the wall and you think, "Kidding, is that all? Where's the rest?" So English dressing rooms, really, really small, in the old stadiums. Then we think, "Oh my God, how can you bring it?" It was built for 11 players and now we come here with 30. So people in that room, it doesn't help. So I knew about the history. I knew that nobody's happy. I knew that I liked the team. That's a good start.

Steven Bartlett: And did they tell you that they were going to develop the ground, the stadium? Did they make any promises or assurances? Did they tell you?

Jürgen Klopp: We didn't really speak about that in the first conversation. That's nothing I need to talk about in this kind of conversation. I know the job I had in that moment was just to improve the football team, not the club. That I was involved in all the other stuff happened with time. I realized this is my responsibility now as well. You never know. I don't plan seven, eight, nine year spells in a club. It just happens. It's like I don't think they could sack me, but I know it could happen. So I plan from a specific moment on. When I sorted the first few things, then I plan mid and long term. Or always did, knowing it might not be for me. But I was never worried about that too much.

Steven Bartlett: What was the first couple of things you thought you had to change to get them winning and to get the confidence back and to ultimately bring the city behind you? Was there anything you thought, "OK, the first thing I'm going to have to do is get rid of him, change this"?

Jürgen Klopp: So a year before, not in that season, but two years before, they nearly became champions. It was a different team. It was a very specific way of football. Offensively, oh my God, they were ridiculously good. Defensively, yeah, lucky, a good goalie there, stuff like this. It was not the same. So we didn't have the team from that time. We didn't have Suarez. We didn't have Sterling. Yeah, we had Daniel Sturridge, stuff like this. But it was a different team, completely different.

I arrived there, I had five strikers. It was Christian Benteke, Danny Ings, Divock Origi, Bobby Firmino, Daniel Sturridge. Five strikers. And I want to play one striker system. How do we deal with that? But it was fine. And there was so much quality, it just wasn't really sorted. So the first thing I had to sort is to organize them. So find a way to make sure that they understand that we have a chance to win the next football game. We have to do a couple of things for that. For Tottenham, three days time to train. Yeah, jump in their face. And let's see what we get for it.

So it's not organized. It's like we started with an organized chaos. So I gave them a few ideas about where we want to put them under pressure, and in that moment, now do it. And afterwards, we talk about how it worked out because there was no time to train. Anyway, we had no time. The week after, we played European League, I think, in the midweek and then we play again. It's like you are in a rush.

A coaching career with all the games you have to play, if you really want to, a top team especially, if you really want to develop a style of football, you are set up to fail because it's like you have no time in the pre-season. There's no, the players are everywhere playing big tournaments, blah, blah, blah. And then you come two weeks before the season starts into your camp. Okay, so let's drive, let's go from here. Then you play, top teams play every three days from a specific date on. We obviously, we lost a lot of finals. That means we played a lot of finals. That means we played all the games until the end of the season, which is a lot. So there's no really time. So to train and really develop things, you have to use each little moment to implement a specific idea we all can buy into. And that's what we did.

I loved our first game against Tottenham. Simon Mignolet had to make a few really good saves, but they had to do as well. And that year, Tottenham was really strong. They became second behind Leicester, I think. It was that season. And that's a start.

Steven Bartlett: What are those little ideas that you started to implement one by one?

Jürgen Klopp: So many. If you don't have time to change football, what do you mean? We are all not genius and we cannot go there and show them a little bit, "Pass the ball here, pass the ball there. And if you pass the ball back again, you can shoot and you're alone in front of the goal." That doesn't work like that.

I'm 100% convinced that you have to make sure that you are stable. If you're stable, that means that the other team, whatever they try, it's not easy for them to get through and should just finish. I don't like that. So if you can avoid that, do it. Because we are people, but we now realize a few times it's not easy. If they have five, six chances after each other, opportunities after each other, then it's like that you don't feel great. Nobody plays his best football if each attack of the opponent ends in the arms of your goalie. That just doesn't work.

So how can we do that? And stability is to organize a team that's number one, two, and three on the to-do list of a successful manager. And that's what I did. We organized. And then we told them to run their socks off. You have to show the people that you want to change something. You have to show the people that you want to achieve something. I can tell them, but in the end, you have to show them. So run. And they went for it. I loved it so much. They loved it so much. It's easy. They're all top fit. They want to run. So just show them which direction and it goes.

And then we developed step-by-step our own way of football. Brought players in step by step. But we got stable pretty quickly. Not as much as we wanted. I think we became 6th, 7th, 8th. I don't even know first season. Two finals. Great. Lost both. Not great. But then we knew each other and we loved working together with this group. Brought in super players. Really super, super players. Super characters, super players. And stuck together.

I mean, what can you do? We lost the European League final in Basel. How it always is, there's a party after the game. So you cannot organize a party, but you always know if you lose, who wants to go to the party. So I was a new manager, yes, not that new anymore, seven, eight months in or so, and I realized some players are not there. But it wasn't a team hotel. So I called them, told them, "All here. Come on, come downstairs." "Oh boss, really?" "I tell you what, this was only the start. We are only together since six or seven months. This is not the last final we are playing. This is the first final we played. Okay, we lost. A bit of Carabao, it's not important. The first international final we lost. No problem. We go again."

And I went to stay on the dance floor. It was a dance floor. And I said, "All coming." And they were saying, "We are Liverpool." I mean, I had a few parties after the finals we lost. And I always thought, I don't waste time at all on not being happy about what we achieved over the whole year, because qualifying for a final is a real achievement. Losing it is not great, but until then everything was fine. And I never accepted that we ignore the rest. So we have a party, and then we went on to achieve new things. And we need a bit of time obviously, but it was okay.

Steven Bartlett: And this goes back to the point earlier about controlling the mindset and the psychology after you lose to make sure that you don't get pressed. And if you don't learn from a defeat, it's a real defeat. If you learn from it, it's just a very, very important information.

Jürgen Klopp: And that's how I always understood it. So I had enough opportunities to learn, really. How I said, I lost more Champions League finals than most people play. It's not a great thing to say. It's the truth anyway.

Steven Bartlett: You're known for what they call heavy metal football.

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah, but that's the...

Steven Bartlett: Do you like that phrase?

Jürgen Klopp: I said a lot of things, but it's like... I said that. It was not in my mind that I thought, "Oh, you want to play heavy metal football?" They asked me about Arsene Wenger on the comparison, and they think we are similar in a way. And I thought, "What? Arsene and I? No. So, come on, don't be disrespectful to Arsene. I'm a young ba-ba-ba man from somewhere. But if you want to compare us, then I'm not sure that's possible because Arsene's football is rather like an orchestra and my team plays a little bit more like a heavy metal band." But that was the first day when I thought about my team, I got a heavy metal band. But it's true. Yes, somehow. It is true.

Steven Bartlett: And I know that more than anyone as a Manchester United fan watching. I'd hate playing your football teams because they ran so much. They were so passionate. They never let up. They could always win in the last minute. And the intensity was you were just anxious as a football fan watching the games because it was so full on. And it was almost overwhelming emotionally. And I remember through your era, sometimes you'd win games by seven, you'd score seven goals, five goals. Every week when I pull up my phone to check the scores that week, "Oh, Liverpool have scored five again. Oh, they've scored seven again. They've scored six again." Sometimes you would concede three, but it was crazy how high intensity the way you played football was.

Jürgen Klopp: Don't waste time with holding back. I don't understand it. We have nothing to do the 90 minutes, 95 minutes, whatever. I don't... we had to learn. I had to learn to manage games. Inside me until the last day, it was like, "Come on, come on, try." But then I had... I mean, I grew up and I got more mature and stuff like this. It was like, "Okay, come on, hold the ball, control the ball." All the things you at one point you do, you learn at any time on your journey. And that's how it is.

And I love the game so much and could play it not that good, that I was so happy that I could work with these outstanding players. I couldn't stop it. I loved it. I enjoyed it so much, seeing them doing what they're doing. I was number one supporter of my team, teams, wherever I was. I love what they did. So that's what I carried through the week. I didn't tell them. I told them, "I want to be your friend, but I cannot be your best friend because I'm the one who tells you off very often." And they'll tell you, "This is not right, this is not right." But the feeling, the general feeling was, I love them. In my mind, my ex-players, I love them all. And some of them don't love back, let me say like that, probably for some reasons or whatever. But that doesn't mean anything to me. I love my clubs.

Steven Bartlett: Do you think it's important how you win? Because this heavy metal, high intensity football was great for the fans. They love watching 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. They love watching that stuff. Do you think that matters? Or do you think it's just about getting the three points?

Jürgen Klopp: We didn't win that often 5-0, 7-0. It felt like it. And against United, we did.

[Laughter]

Jürgen Klopp: You can cut it out.

[More laughter]

Jürgen Klopp: No, it's... yeah, of course it's important. So if you have your backpack going to the stadium as a player, if you have your boots and if you wear a shirt, don't waste time with anything than giving your all. There's no guarantee to get anything, but the only chance to get something. So give your all from the first until the last minute. You have to understand this game is only that fun for us because all the people are watching it. That's why we earn the money. I mean it. I know that's what people want to hear, but we earn the money because everybody's interested in it. Everybody wants to see it, knows about it, reads everything about it, all these kind of things. And for that, with all the stories around, the only thing we really have to deliver is give your absolute all in a game like that. Whatever, whichever game is there. 5:30, 2:30, 3:30, whenever the game starts, give your absolute all.

Steven Bartlett: But why not just 1-0 and defense and boring and pass it around?

Jürgen Klopp: That happens. That happens in games. You realize, "Okay, we scored a goal, but today's not our day. Come on, let's get it over the line." That happens. But it cannot be the target or the purpose for the next game again. "Let's do it like that." Not for... There are clubs, if you own... The only realistic target is to stay in the league. It's a wonderful result. But we talk about a club like Liverpool. We are bigger than that. You have to win each football game when you are manager of Liverpool. That's not that before the season anybody thinks, "Oh, 38 games, more than 100." Nobody had ever. So it's not like that. But still, each defeat and each draw is like, "How could it happen?" And that's why you have to play in a specific way.

Not all clubs have the same things to do, but the top clubs, they have to win all the games. And when you have the chance, you win them clear. You win them high with the proper results, stuff like this. You have to make the people enjoy the football you play. And I love to do that. I loved it, honestly. It's like the games we played, the results we had, were just incredible. It's just amazing. Not all of them. And I love the 1-0s as much as I do all the others. The Champions League final was the worst final of all the four my teams played, but we won it. Would I take... would I change the other three as well? The performance in other games was really good, but we lost. So here we are. It was not fantastic, but we won. So all fine. It's about the result.

But if you have a result and another result, it has to lead to really good football at one point, as good as possible for your specific team. You want to stay in the league? Do it with good football. You want to qualify for Europe? Do it with good football, because we are there for the people. We don't... it's not there that we just go home and the people think, "Oh, it's unwatchable. I'm not sure I come next week again." That's not fair. Try to play. The game is really, it's a really cool game. So let's make sure that everybody sees it.

Steven Bartlett: And what is the Liverpool way?

Steven Bartlett: What is inherent when you come to Liverpool? You are the manager or you are a player. What is the thing that you have to do that's specific to Liverpool in order to be successful?

Jürgen Klopp: You have to understand the community. I mean the community, that's the city community, and it's a bigger community around the world. There are so many people, and this club went through a lot. Not as the only club in the world, but come on, for that moment we just think about ourselves. It went through a lot. The reaction to these situations was always exceptional, to be 100% honest. And that's what you have to understand, what you have to learn: that this club means more to the people than just football. So that's what you have to understand. And that's why what we do is more important than it maybe is somewhere else. That's the responsibility we always took and understood 100%. Our players understood: to play for Liverpool is not just a club where you play during your career. It's the club, and it's something you will definitely remember for life.

So we try to make sure that the boys understood: if we give our absolute everything now, we meet in 10, 15 years, look back, and we think it was the best we could have done. The absolute best we could have done. And I think that's how my view on life is as well. All the other stuff is just sorting the problem in front of you. There's something we have to sort, but when you see it, you think about what's the effect for the rest. And that's what some people, some clubs maybe don't want to see, because the pressure is too big just to make sure that tomorrow at least they will not write that we have no clue. Tomorrow at least they will say they found a solution. And then we can think about the next day or whatever.

Steven Bartlett: How does someone succeed you when you have such a big aura? Are you aware that you have a big aura?

Jürgen Klopp: I don't know if anybody has the awareness of that. I heard about it, but they don't know what it means 100%, to be honest. But I see with other people and energy... when you arrive, it's the passion, it's the ability to talk, it's the ability to inspire people. It has an impact on the rival team you're playing because they go, "Klopp's here, big personality, big charisma."

Steven Bartlett: So Arne Slot coming in after you, he doesn't appear to have the same size of an aura. And I don't know, I just think big shoes to fill in terms of your aura.

Jürgen Klopp: I have to go to the toilet.

Steven Bartlett: I bet you do.

Jürgen Klopp: No, really. [Laughs] Okay. That's good. Big shoes. Big shoes. I would not want to fill such shoes. A couple of things. First and foremost, I thought I had to say what I had to say when I announced my exit, if you want, my retirement, whatever you want to call it. At the time, people judged it as the wrong moment, blah blah blah. I cannot change that. The feeling was, I have to say that. Then you have to finish the season as good as somehow possible in either world. You win something, we couldn't do that for whatever reason. And then you have to make sure, because that's still something you have to do, you have to try to make it as easy as somehow possible for the guy who's coming after you. That's what I tried as well, because I wanted them all to do incredibly well.

And I always thought if somebody is not doing it that way, it's the first hint you can get that maybe he wants the next guy not to do it, but everybody's shouting, "Oh my God, he did that, he did that, he did that." And I don't need that. I want Liverpool to do well. I want Liverpool to win. And they did. So what I liked a lot about Arne, and Arne didn't hesitate, but you said, "No, I want to go in these shoes." Arne didn't have that problem. He thought, "Okay, that's a great club, that's a great team." And he's right. It was a fantastic club, it is a fantastic club, and it's a fantastic team. And he stepped into that. We had a lot of contact after that. He was a super, super good guy. And I was like, "My God, what a team. Wow. Thanks a lot." All these kind of things. And he made the best, he got the best out of this team and they became champion in an incredible manner, to be honest. So I'm really, really happy about that.

It shows again, it's all about how you see it. You can see it as stepping into my footsteps, how you called it, or you take over a fantastic football team.

Steven Bartlett: My best friend's a Liverpool fan, and he said before you left, actually, he said, "This is the best squad Liverpool have ever had." Arne has inherited that squad, which is considered to be the best squad by many people that Liverpool have ever had. And in that first year, it didn't really change much. There weren't any big signings coming. I actually heard from one of the players at Liverpool that they said to a really good friend of mine that the best thing Arne had done was actually in that first year: don't change much. Don't come in and try and radically change things.

Jürgen Klopp: But that's what Arne Slot would say himself. Probably, I think he said it. That's super smart. So it's not about what Arne wants to show the world what he can do. It's about how to get the best out of this team. And that's exactly what he did. Not changing much means he changed a little bit. We became third the year before. So there's not a lot you have to change, but a few decisive things you have to change, and all of a sudden you win the league by some distance. So that's what it is. Not that he has to put his own new stamp. This team was good in a lot of ways, but we didn't win the year before. And that's what his job was, and he did that in an incredibly impressive manner. And that's all you want.

You need people who have the confidence to do these kind of things, because it doesn't make sense if you have a manager who is not 100% sure about the things he wants to do. "I want us to play like this, or if that's not possible, I want to play like this, or I want to maybe completely different." That doesn't work. Being a football manager is already a challenge with all the different things you have to do. Being a football manager in such a competitive league like the Premier League is a real challenge. Being a football manager in the world we are living in with media, social media, and all these kind of things, it's an incredible challenge. Believe me, you have no clue what's coming up the next day. You think, "Oh my God, where is that coming from? Who was that? Oh, my player." You read the story, whatever, and all of a sudden you think, "Oh, from a problem it turns into your problem in a way." So sort that and all the rest as well. So you need this kind of... I love that about Arne, that he came in and took over and he knew he got a good team. Yes, it was. And he did a perfect job.

Steven Bartlett: I mean, in terms of making changes, this year Liverpool have spent what, 450 odd million, which is a crazy number. I think he'd broken the transfer record in various positions several times with Wurz and with Isak now as well. So change has arrived. These are new people. They're coming in with their own ideologies from their previous clubs. They've all arrived at once. A lot of new faces at once. Is this not now where the challenge begins? Because this is going to become Arne's team now.

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah, but that's not a problem. That's completely normal. And it doesn't mean exactly that. Today was a lot of change. I mean, no team... by the way, it's 450 or whatever million, I don't know the exact numbers, but they earned a lot of money as well. And change always has an impact, and change always needs time. But people talk then about, "Yeah, but this, if..." No, that's not like that. He keeps the exactly same team like last year. Darwin Nunez is still there. Luis Diaz is still there, as an example. So they start playing and they have problems. So, "Yeah, we need a change." So now they are not there anymore. The new guys are there and they are really, really good players. It's not working out. I mean, yeah, why? Why is it not working? Because development needs time. Then nobody can change that. People need to adapt to situations, need to adapt to things, all these kind of things. So it's all good, it's all in place.

What you have at Liverpool this year has to be in the competition in the decisive moments, and then they have to be ready to go for it. There's no guarantee that you then will win it again. That doesn't happen just like this. You cannot be champion, spend money, and be champion again. The other teams don't sleep. That's how it is. And to become champion, you need luck in moments here and there. That's how it is. Nobody wants to hear that. But crossbar, over the line, not over the line, all these kind of things, it can go in your direction. You need luck in moments here and there. It can go in your direction or in the other direction. So it's all fine.

And we discussed the situation now like it's a struggle, surprise. We take the money and throw it against them, 450 million. But they earned 200 million as well. So it's all fine. If you are with Liverpool, and only these people are really the only people who matter, if you are with Liverpool, you trust them and they do the right stuff, they do the right things. So work on it and become the best football team this team can be.

Steven Bartlett: You never had a transfer window like that where you spent that much money?

Jürgen Klopp: No, we built three stands and a training ground.

Steven Bartlett: Yeah, exactly. And I remember the press conference, I think when you were referring to City's ability to spend money. I had no clue that this is possible. Nobody ever told me that it's possible that we can spend like that.

Jürgen Klopp: My last year at Liverpool, so the Adidas deal, the new stadium, all these kind of things, yeah, they earn more money. But it was never, never ever I could have asked for the amount of money. But that's not a problem. That time, it was not there. No problem at all. Really not. And I love the fact that we were as successful as we were and built new stands and built a training ground. Because we talk now about a transfer window in the way you want to talk about it, spend a lot of money, but there's no discussion about the stands and no discussion about the training ground. They are second to none. The training ground and the stands are wonderful. And at the same place where Anfield is, they could build pretty much a new stadium without leaving the old one. So that's a fantastic story and that will stay forever. Maybe at one point they decide the Kop could be even for more people or whatever. I don't know if that ever will happen, but you could do stuff there. That's what I love about this. I really want, as much as I can—it's not my first target because I have to win football games with my team—but I want that a club benefits from the time we were together after we left. I want that.

Steven Bartlett: This might be quite a naive observation, but in the time when you were at Liverpool, my assessment of Liverpool was you never necessarily had the world's most famous starting XI team, but you could beat anybody. So when you brought in Milner, who was at City before, and when you brought in these other players, I would be like, "Why are they signing him? He's not..." But then when they'd play for Liverpool, they would be unbelievable players, and you could beat anybody. So there was almost this culture at Liverpool, which I observed, where you didn't necessarily go for the Galactico players. You weren't trying to get Ronaldo or Messi. You were going for sort of these players that had character and a culture fit. And ultimately that meant that at times it looked like you were playing with 12 men.

And so this transfer window that I've just observed, where you have gone for the very, very best names, some of the best players on planet Earth that were number one choices for Real Madrid and the biggest clubs on Earth, I almost don't recognise Liverpool moving like that in a window. There's part of me that's like, I hope that this is not their Falcao, Di Maria moment, Ronaldo moment, where they thought big players but they didn't think of culture. I'm praying that's the difference.

Jürgen Klopp: You wish that's the difference. You wish. I guess... incredible striker, incredible striker. Flow words, you will all eat your words if you use the wrong word. He's an incredible talent. Etiquette, the incredible player. Yeah, just offensive players. It's a really, really, really good, well-rounded squad. If the young centre-half is not getting injured, it's the perfect squad. If he's injured, that doesn't help. Then you might be a majority on the centre-half position. Besides that, it's a perfect squad. Two super left-backs, really super right-backs. So it's just a really good football team. That's how you set a team up. And now you have to deal with the situation. They all think they have to start the game, but that's the normal job. It's not that it's difficult. That's the normal job. You have this discussion who will start a week or two. In the third week, one is injured and you are happy that the other can start. So that's the world a football manager is living in. So we don't have to worry about that. I'm really interested. So you don't have to worry about Liverpool. They will be fine.

Steven Bartlett: This was just the net spend graph of the different clubs while you were there. And it's quite clear that you weren't spending the same as your rivals during your time. And a lot of the fans in the media speculated that the owners, the Fenway Sports Group, just weren't giving you the money. But you were still getting the results, which is pretty...

Jürgen Klopp: No, no, no. So, yeah.

Steven Bartlett: What's the public perception?

Jürgen Klopp: That I didn't ask for the money? That's probably not right. We had these conversations. But I didn't ask in a way that if you don't get it, we can do it. It's not my job to think about how much we can squeeze out of whatever area. I felt massively responsible. My idea was always, with the boys we have, become the best team you can be. And you were right when you said we were maybe not the best team. I think there was a period when we played football you could have thought that's maybe the best played by the best team. I don't know exactly, between 18 and 20. That was a pretty long spell. But we always, and it was the idea, we always were able to beat the best team. And that was the idea because that's a constant thing. The next best, the next best, we can beat you, we can beat you. Be the best. You are the one everybody wants to beat. I love that.

So net spend and stuff like this, I was never too worried about. We had all these conversations. I was happy with how it was. I couldn't have discussions with people. I cannot decide how much money we spend. It's just not possible. Arne Slot cannot decide how much money Liverpool spend. That's how it is. There are other people who decide that. And if you have the money, then you spend for really good players, what Liverpool did this year. And I think it was the right thing to do. And I'm pretty sure one specific moment changed the whole transfer window. That was the saddest day of last year. And how do you replace somebody like Diogo? It's not about the player itself, it's about the guy he was. He was good with absolutely everybody. Absolutely everybody.

He arrived, he had no real... I think he was a bit surprised that we approached him, that we asked for him. Then he came, and then he delivered from day one. I remember still when I saw him the first time playing for Wolves. What's that? When I went to... you always hear these stories when people tell me, and it's true, that Mo Salah they had to convince me and stuff like that. It's not convinced that I take him, but it was like there were other players as well and Mo was one of the others, and we decided altogether for Mo, but it's fine. But this, nobody came to me and told me, "Come on, let's have a look at Diogo Jota." I saw him and I said, "Please, give me more material, I have to see him." And he excelled all the expectations as a guy. Super smart, super teammate. And now he sits in a dressing room, and I cannot imagine right now the dressing room without him being there. That's so hard. I still cannot speak properly about it. It's really like that. It was an incredible shock. And that's for the boys as well. And I don't think we could speak about it because otherwise some bad journalists make a story of it, what I said about him and what it means. Nobody at Liverpool will ever use it as an excuse. But it is the situation. You walk every day in this room where he was omnipresent.

He was... can you imagine, to talk about him, he was so close with James Milner. They are not the same age group. They are nothing the same. It's just he was so... but on the other side, very close with Kostas Tsimikas. That's like moon and Mars. So that was him. And dealing with that on a personal level, not easy. Impossible. And now as a club, take all the emotional stuff out and think, "How do we replace him?" And you have to think about that. Wow. That's difficult. Impossible, I would say. And now we charge a transfer window where they buy the players. There was not a plan, I'm pretty sure, that he had to get replaced.

Steven Bartlett: Do you remember where you were when you heard the news?

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah. I got a message in the morning. "Boss, I have bad news." And I got a message from a friend from Liverpool. And I couldn't believe it. It was not possible. I heard it from a friend from Liverpool, and I couldn't believe it. It was not possible. I heard it, and I know what it means, but I couldn't believe it. The whole story, I saw all the pictures, obviously, from the wedding, and all the boys were there, and stuff like that, and it was only before that. And I know exactly where I was. That was exactly how long I sat there without speaking a word. So it is a family member. It is exactly like that. So look, it's really like that. It's an example for the things you have to deal with without knowing at all. You cannot be prepared to deal with things like that. And today we talk about the transfer of Liverpool. That would have looked completely different. So you have to sort the things. You never expect that. You have to think about everybody wanted this boy to play the next 10 years at Liverpool. All-round player, all positions, can play, football smart.

[Pause]

Steven Bartlett: On July the 3rd, 2025, Diogo was killed in a car crash alongside his brother in Spain. I think just before then he had got married to his partner and he had several beautiful children. He said of you, he said the first time you and him met, he just felt your presence. He said, "I think that's one of his main characteristics, the way you can just feel him only with his presence." And Diogo went on to be incredibly successful under your leadership at Liverpool.

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, same. I could say the same. I could say the same about him. I was as impressed with his presence. Very special, very special young man, I have to say.

Steven Bartlett: How much of a role does a manager like you play in the transfer window? This is something that's always speculated by the fans.

Jürgen Klopp: Do you remember the first minute I came in and they told me about a transfer committee? I never had. They told me that the journalists asked me because they implemented a transfer committee because they didn't want to have the managers that decisive in a transfer window. Obviously before me there were some issues. There's no problem with that. I can discuss with everyone. As long as no player signs for the club that I don't want. I'm used to not getting all the players I want. That's completely normal. It's not up to the coaches. We say we need one that plays, and they say, "Yeah, it's too expensive." They can ask again, "Sorry, can we make it happen?" And knowing they all try absolutely everything to get the right price and get the player in. You cannot do anything with that. That anybody in a club would bring in a player you don't agree on, that's not possible. But it's very, very normal in a football coach's life that you don't get all the players you want. So no problem with that. As long as the transfer window is open, you try to create, build the best possible squad. On the day after the transfer window, you have the best possible squad, whichever transfers you made. And that's the way you go into the rest of the season.

Steven Bartlett: Michael Edwards left during your tenure. He was sort of one of the key people that was responsible for looking for players and signing them. And he's back now.

Jürgen Klopp: First and foremost, I don't want to say anything else because we have a really good relationship. Michael Edwards is absolutely great in what he's doing. But it was not on one day his job alone to bring in players. There were a lot of others: Julian Ward, Ian Graham, so many people that were involved. Barry Hunter, all these kind of things, were involved in these kind of things. It was a process. We were really close together. It's not one sitting there and being the genius and producing ideas and everything. "Oh my God, he's available. I didn't even know him." It's like we know football players. It's like negotiating, finding the right moment to sell, finding the right moment to buy. That's a sporting director's job. But he was before, and now I don't even know exactly the role, something in the holding company, yeah, across the board. So Richard Hughes is now there doing an incredible job. So these kind of things, it's really all in an ideal world.

So like people from outside are idolizing sometimes people like that. Definitely some of them with me, and they do with Michael. But Michael never did the job alone. I never did the job alone. It was always like a really good... yeah, they worked together just really well. We didn't have a lot of disagreements where you think, "Where is that coming from? Why you want him?" It's a process. And a football team is an open book. Everybody can read it every day. So if you want to add something, it should not be a surprise to everybody. They think, "Where is that idea coming from? You think we need a left back. Why? We have already four." That doesn't happen. It's a work in progress all the time during a season, but the transfer windows, it clashes, obviously. And English people in professional football enjoy D-Day a bit more than probably in other countries. So I didn't get that to a full extent, but I learned a lot about the excitement of a good transfer window.

Steven Bartlett: Did you always get on with them?

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah, I would say 100%. And Michael definitely, and Richard, I don't know. We spoke quite a few times after I left. So I like him. And I think they did an incredible job, honestly.

Steven Bartlett: Because you became bigger than the coach. You became such a huge figure in the city. My assistant who's been with me, my PA has been with me for 10 years. She's from Liverpool and I'm probably going to embarrass her now, but you're like the king to her. Not even in Liverpool, you're the king globally.

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah. Because we did that.

Steven Bartlett: So I'm thinking, if I was a Michael Edwards or someone else at the club and I was trying to... that you had ultimate power, kind of like Sir Alex Ferguson. He became everything. He is the state, he's on the stadium, he is the club. So I always wondered how anyone would be able to overturn your opinion or argue with you when you are the city. You're the great Jürgen Klopp.

Jürgen Klopp: But that's the outside world. Come on. I'm not an idiot. I don't sit there. And I always said I need other people to understand things. It's like my own opinion. I know already. I know. The more I get up, I know my opinion. So come on. How can you get a better view on things?

Jürgen Klopp: That's how it is. It's just by discussing with people. Yes, the final decision I have to make. And I have no problem with that. But for that, I need all people being really involved. And if you want to have an argument, have an argument. In the end, I will make the decision. Absolutely no problem. Did we have arguments? Maybe yes, I don't remember them, but it's not important because in the end, it's about the outcome, about what is best for the club. And I never had a problem with that. I never thought they all have to please me.

So I realized how famous I am after I left Liverpool. I have no clue. I was never in Liverpool out there on the bus. It's normal that the people cheer because they cheer for everybody. So I realized how good I was as a coach since I'm not in the job anymore. Because I thought what I can do, everybody can do. My real... maybe not. So it's 100% the truth. Because in the job, you just try to sort every day the things in front of you. That's what you try.

Steven Bartlett: Can I ask you about Darwin? He didn't seem very happy on your last day.

Jürgen Klopp: Darwin, yeah. We had an absolutely good relationship, as good as can be with a striker who is not scoring as often as he wants, as the people want, and as I think he could have. And with a striker who didn't play as often as definitely he wants. So how can you have a fantastic relationship? Would it be if he would... I didn't see that picture, I heard about it. If he would have stood there and been the number one and jumping after me, crying his eyes out and hugging me for 10 minutes, I would be okay, what's going on here? It's a completely normal situation.

I cannot have my first concern be to please everybody. It's just not possible in that job. You have 25 players, 11 starting positions. So, sorry, more players are not happy than you make happy. That's already where the problem starts. So you have to get through this. And I'm pretty sure he had super moments at Liverpool. We had super moments together. And on my last day, if I would have been him, I would have thought as well, okay, come on, the next one is a new chance for me. Because players do that. If it goes really well for them, it's not that they think, thanks to the coach. If it's not going well, they think, it's okay, he doesn't bring me often enough, it's not my fault. We are humans, we are all the same. So it's not that they are special in that moment. Some of them think, yeah, I have to do more. I have to do more for week one, week two, week three, and then they think, I did three weeks more, it's still not picking me. So it's... you cannot always have harmony and flowers and all these kinds of things. That's a competitive environment, and you need to perform to get what you think you deserve.

Steven Bartlett: When did you decide that you wanted to sign Darwin? How was that?

Jürgen Klopp: The club signed him, exactly like before. We decided it all together, involved in that process. And yes, that's how it is nowadays. We would have loved to sign him for lesser money, of course, but it wasn't possible at the moment. We needed a striker. We wanted to have an extra option for a striker. We had Bobby, always the best false nine in the world. And now we needed somebody with a bit more speed and stuff like this. The attack was Mo and Sadio. I'm not even sure if Sadio was still there. Probably not. Sadio left that year. So we had to change as well. Luis Diaz, great. Cody Gakpo, great. What kind of player don't we have? I thought Cody can play a little bit like Bobby, good footballer on the side, but feels much better on the wing, all these kinds of things. So yeah, of course we all signed him together. No problem to admit that it maybe didn't work out as good as it could, but without Darwin Nunez, so many things wouldn't have happened. The biggest comeback of all time at Newcastle, for example.

Steven Bartlett: Yeah, I hate that fucking game.

Jürgen Klopp: Oh, I love that day.

Steven Bartlett: I love that day.

Jürgen Klopp: That fucking game. We came on.

[Ad break for StanStore and Conversation Cards]

Steven Bartlett: Why did you leave? Why did you leave Liverpool? I watched your videos announcing your departure so many times, and I was almost trying to read between the lines. I was trying to read between the lines. Tell me what you read.

Jürgen Klopp: No, I was just...

Steven Bartlett: Because you talk about just the energy, not having the energy for it. That's kind of how I was interpreting you. You sat down with your board, your board talked about plans for next year, and you realized in that moment that you didn't have the energy to rebuild and go again, etc.

Jürgen Klopp: No, not to rebuild. We didn't have to rebuild that way. I knew the team is a good team. So my expectation of myself is... I'm the energy giver to everybody in this environment. That's what I brought. If somebody's struggling, come on, you can have mine, but I don't need it. Let's go. I have to be on top of my game, absolute top of my game, to be the guy who deserves to be the Liverpool manager. And that's what I said when I said, "Dave, when I feel I don't know that anymore, then I don't." It's not that I say, okay, let's wait until everybody sees it and then they can give me the sack. I cannot do it like that, not after the time we had together.

I realized I don't want to be there after all the time we had together. I don't want to be the guy. I don't want to go on tour to the USA. Why? Because I loved it every day. So then you realize, phew, I need a break, whatever. I need to have something else. And you cannot do that in that business. You cannot say, "Ladies and gentlemen, give me a year, see you later." It's just not like that. And I really think we did what we had to do to say what we felt and thought in that moment. And it was exactly like that. I didn't have the energy to think about what's next. I didn't want to think about what's next. I just wanted to go. I was happy with finishing the season, but then don't ask me, what can we do here, what can we do there? It was all my responsibility for all the time because, yes, I don't decide money, but all the rest, it was in my hands from a specific moment on. COVID kicked in, no sporting director. Michael came after I left. He was not there anymore. It was not because we had a problem or whatever, not at all. It was just they wanted to find a leader for the pack and found that with Michael and Richard, and Arne obviously now working really close together. So that was the decision. But there was a time there was no Richard, no Michael, no Julian Ward. So it was just me sitting there on top of all the things, and we had to win football games, but all the rest was on my plate as well. It was an intense time.

Steven Bartlett: There wasn't a structure around you in that regard?

Jürgen Klopp: COVID changed a lot. I mean, people didn't fly as much anymore. The owners didn't come that often over. It was like budget calls were on the phone, more or less. We brought in Jörg Schmadtke, the German, because we didn't have a sporting director at the time, in fact. Julian came back, but then I don't even know exactly why he left again. And so these kinds of things just happened. The only guys who were always there were we, the coaches and the football team. So they were just the normal stuff over a day.

Steven Bartlett: So he was doing the sporting director stuff?

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah, us, and together in that one window with Jörg Schmadtke, the German guy we brought over. I don't even know if Julian Ward was still there. The lawyers, the scouts.

Steven Bartlett: So do you think you could ever go back and manage Liverpool again? Is that within the realm of possibilities?

Jürgen Klopp: I said I will never coach a different team in England. So that means if... Dennis Liverpool? Yeah. So yeah, theoretically it's possible.

Steven Bartlett: What would it take, theoretically, for you to want to do that? Psychologically?

Jürgen Klopp: I don't even know exactly. I just... there must be... I love what I do right now. I don't miss coaching. I don't. I mean, I do coach, but just different. Not players. So, and I don't miss it. I don't miss standing in the rain for two and a half, three hours. And I don't miss going to press conference four times, three times a week. Having 10, 12 interviews a week. I don't miss that. I don't. So I don't miss being in the dressing room in the sense that I didn't have it often enough. I coached 1,080-something games, so I was in a dressing room very, very often. I don't want to die in a dressing room just because it's so nice. It smells. It's these kinds of things.

But there might be something. I'm 58. That's, from your perspective, old. From the other side, it's not that old. That means I could make the decision in a few years. I don't know. Do I have to make the decision today? I will not coach again. But thank God I don't have to do that. I can just see what the future brings. But now I'm involved in a project I really love, and I love the people I'm working together with, and the clubs we are responsible for, and the countries the clubs are in. So I like doing what I'm doing right now. And in my mind, only if I'm focused 100% on it can I do it really good, and that's what I always want to do.

Steven Bartlett: Those are the things you don't miss. What do you miss?

Jürgen Klopp: Sometimes people. So, yeah, sometimes I miss people. Like, I wish I... so that's... I don't miss the dressing room as a dressing room, but sitting there in the restaurant with the players and having a nice chat. That, it's nice. It was always nice when they were just in a good mood. We won a lot of games. So there was often a very good mood in the building. And standing there hearing them laugh. I still have [a specific player's] laugh in my ear, for example. Yes, this part of the job is obviously... but that's for these players which I had the last time. Do I miss it in general with football players? Not right now. It's not like that. But there's really not a lot to be honest what I miss, because I'm still in the business I know most about. So the football part, I don't miss because I have it. And the only thing is, I don't have to be outside. I'm not the guy in the chair before a game and stuff like this. No, I honestly, that's probably the best. I don't miss anything. That's how it is.

Steven Bartlett: When I look at your career, Dortmund, Liverpool, you seem to always be successful. And it's extremely rare. And you seem to always succeed with a lot of passion and all those things. But my question is, I think about the audience we have, which are often business people, leaders, CEOs. Is there anything else that we haven't touched upon that is central to your idea of getting the best out of a group of people? We talked about being a sort of bespoke leader, being the jigsaw piece you need to be to get the best out of a person. We talked about giving everything. Is there anything else that's really central to your philosophy of leadership and management that you think is important that we haven't touched upon yet, that young coaches might be able to steal?

Jürgen Klopp: Create the best team possible. And I mean in an understanding of the team. Like really, there must be a reason why this team wins and not the other team, because there are other teams out there. They try absolutely everything. So don't waste time with walking next to each other, not knowing anything about each other, not being bothered about the problems of each other, not being interested about each other. No, no, no. I want to grow together. And it was my job to help them to grow, to create a situation where they could do that, to make sure. And if I had to be harsh to all of them so that they found a way to get together, I did that. It was not what I said. It was what they needed to understand why we are a very special team in a very hard and difficult competition. But we have to find a reason why we deserve it more than others. Yes, that's what I say, what you have to do. And that's what people want to convince today with knowledge. They want to say, "I know everything about that, I can tell you, I can explain it to you, sir." But in the end, that one thing. And other people can know as well. It's about how close can we really grow together to go out there and smash whatever out of them. So that's the thing I always did. So it was always clear for us, we would walk through fire. I'm not sure if I said anything, but we really would do absolutely everything. And without me telling every day to find a way to grow as much together, that was obvious.

Steven Bartlett: How do I get people to walk through fire? So you're talking about making sure the bonds amongst themselves are strong. I heard stories of you making sure everybody knew everybody's name when you first arrived and things like that. I loved players when it was staff, the staff names, etc. What were you doing to get people to walk through fire?

Jürgen Klopp: That's exactly... that's a good question. There's no answer for the question because it would mean you say one thing and everybody runs. That's not like that. You have to create a culture, an environment, a situation, a vibe where everybody realized this is special. The underlying message is this is special, and now let's go for it. This is worth it. This means really more to all of us that we can really fight more for it.

What is special? The togetherness, the way we had. And people can say that's in our club the same, but the way we interacted in the training ground with the kitchen staff, with the respect we showed every day with the kit man, with the gardeners, with all the people there. That was, for me, most important because you just realize that's the respect you show, it's the respect you get. You can't show respect, you don't deserve any. So that's how it is. And it's not a lesson in the sense that I tell you, "Wait, sit here, you have to respect the gardener and then the other people will respect you as well." It's not like that. You just learn that. Show respect, you get respect. Don't show respect, you don't deserve it. So all these little things over there. That's not a big thing. It's not that every day I go for them and tell them why is this different, why is that different. The way you deal with situations, we found a way for us that the most important information about the game was what I said and not what was in the media, not what was on social media. And I said it was good, it was good. There were still all the things out there that were written, but that were not important anymore. When I said it was not good, then could they write, "Yeah, but you won 3-0"? And then we found a way to talk about it and worked on it. We created our own world in that time which was more important than the outside world.

Steven Bartlett: How is not being respectful to the gardener going to lose you the Champions League? What is the through line?

Jürgen Klopp: I believe just in... if you cannot do that, if you don't appreciate what other people do, then you can't appreciate what your teammate is doing. If you don't... that's just a little sign. It's not that there's a direct impact from here to there. But in the end, I'm pretty sure if you would have a brief look at it in one or two situations, like, "Wow, it doesn't look like a proper fella." And then you go back to the beginning with, "Yeah, because it isn't." I can tell you.

Steven Bartlett: I'm fascinated by this point. When I was at United, the ladies who served the food in the boxes and lounges, when I would ask them what was different after Fergie left, the thing they kept saying to me was, "Oh, it's just so different around here." And I'd say, "Explain to me how." They'd go, "I don't know. Sir Alex Ferguson just knew our names." That's what they would say. And it's a strange thing to hear that the only symptom that some of the staff in the stadium could point at was just the new leadership don't know our names.

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah, but this is obviously not the answer to the Man United problems. That's just the situation with the ladies or whoever working in that area. But it shows if that doesn't... then you don't know theoretically their names. What it shows is the togetherness is not there anymore. It starts already with, yes, Alex, it was just different. And then you, yep, but not on day one. But after 23 years, of course it was different. Of course he knew your name. He saw you growing up. So how can you compare that?

Steven Bartlett: This was under Ed Woodward, just for context. This wasn't under any other sort of manager. This was before then, a couple of years ago. And I just always found that, for me, as a business leader, became a really interesting reference point because, as you said, it's just a downstream symptom of something where the club has gone from feeling like a family and special and close and tight and these values to the decay of the values all the way down to the stream at the bottom.

Jürgen Klopp: But this is a generation discussion, isn't it? So like in the past... again, I'm not that old that I say in the past everything was better, I'm for sure not, but we are differently raised. That's how it is. I came home, I walked home in a 1,200-person village. I had a 400-meter walk from the bus station to my home. I walked home. Obviously, a lady crossed my way. I can't remember it. I arrived at home after 200 meters. And my mom said, "Why didn't you say hello to Mr. So-and-so?" What? So does that help me in life? I'm not sure. It's just how you get ready. So I didn't run back and say, "Sorry, hello." But next time, believe me. It led to in my life where a lot of people recognize me, it's for me difficult not to say hello to people because of that. But I start obviously getting attention. If I can't get through something and I would say hello, that doesn't work properly for me anymore. But it's still in me.

One thing is the things we read, the other thing is the things we feel, the other thing is how we get treated. We all are the result of a lot of things that happened to us. And as long as we are together, let's make sure that we influence each other as positively as somehow possible. And let's see where it leads us to. That's the idea I have.

Steven Bartlett: A lot of managers or leaders or CEOs would focus on tactics and strategy first and foremost. And as you say, the information and all those things. But it appears that you focus somewhere else.

Jürgen Klopp: Not first. Same time.

Steven Bartlett: Not first?

Jürgen Klopp: Same time. I have 24 hours a day, two hours time for training. There's not a lot more you can do. Maybe have another in the preseason, definitely more. Another session, two hours, four hours. 20 hours left. Seven, eight hours sleep. 12 more hours. Welcome. What can we do with that? That's to become the best group we can be. So I'm 100% interested in definitely the best group we can be.

Steven Bartlett: Yeah, those relationships, those values.

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah.

Steven Bartlett: Were there any particular changes you made to how the team interacted with each other? I know that the Ineos guys told me at Manchester United, they've changed the canteen so that people don't sit on separate tables now and the team are together when they eat. Just small things like this that some people might think are inconsequential. Are there any things that you changed? Any rules or policies?

Jürgen Klopp: I don't like these obvious things too much. If you don't like each other, the size of the table makes no difference, to be honest. I don't say that's not important, I don't see the real effect. I want to reach it in a different way. I want to introduce them to each other in a specific way, on the pitch, by the way. That's where it starts because we are a football team. We are not a community that just sits there and drinks tea and biscuits. It's a real competitive environment and it's all to get the best out of the boys on the football pitch. So rules, pitch, rules, dressing room. But then there's so many things left and right of the rules. There's so many things you can do together. There's so much to talk about, so much to know about. And that's what life is. Otherwise, we just live next to each other and we don't benefit from each other. That makes no sense. I don't want to make it bigger than it is. But my general understanding of a football team is to become the best football team you can be. This is as important as tactics. The best tactics, the guys don't respect each other, don't like each other, nobody will see them ever. So if the worst tactics, but they love each other, boy, they still can win. That's possible. A world-class team, good coach, you have a good chance to be successful.

Steven Bartlett: I have two pictures that we haven't shown yet. But this particular picture is of Elisabeth.

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah, Mama.

Steven Bartlett: Your Mama.

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah. 2011, we became champion with Dortmund. My home club, SV Gladbach, invited me to build a stage. My elder sister wrote a poem. My mom couldn't have been prouder, obviously, that day. I saw my teammates from my first football team, they were all there. Nobody would have thought that somebody from there would arrive where I was there. Yeah. Great day. Lisbeth was a really, really nice woman, I have to say.

Steven Bartlett: She passed away in 2021 after falling ill. Because of everything that was going on at the time with the pandemic, you weren't able to attend her funeral because of the travel restrictions and all those kinds of things. But she did get to see your success. She got to see that.

Jürgen Klopp: That's a big difference. So I was not at the funeral, and that was... the sounds crazy, an online funeral was one of the saddest things I experienced in my life. But I made it happen at least. That was good that we could see it, that we could be part of it. We couldn't be there. My mom had in the end had dementia, so it's not that she would have known that I was not there when she was lying there. That's not a nice thing. But she saw the majority of my working life, if you want. My dad didn't see my coaching life. So nothing is perfect. But mom was super happy, was a very happy lady until she could remember us and recognize us. And the time when she couldn't do that anymore was not too long. But that's... can't wait for the day when somebody finds a solution for these kinds of things, for these kinds of diseases. Because in your age, obviously you don't think about it. But if you come older, they think, who dies today just of a heart attack and not by having already dementia or stuff like this and don't recognize the kids anymore. You don't want that. You just can get through this by ignoring the fact and hoping that science will find a way until we get there.

Steven Bartlett: She started to lose her memories of her family because of dementia.

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah. So like the normal things on the phone, she didn't know, didn't recognize my voice. First, this is a strange, strange disease, however you call it. It closes so many doors and opens others. So long-time memory, incredible. She recognized ladies in the street they were together in primary school, stuff like this, but didn't know who we were. So just these kinds of things. It's not a competition of things you forget or whatever. There are a lot of things you forget, and especially for the people... and it was my sisters who took care of her, obviously. That's not nice. If she doesn't recognize you, who are you?

Jürgen Klopp: How is that to deal with as a family member, when someone you love, a parent, can no longer recognize who you are? It sounds like a grief, it was a heartbreak.

Steven Bartlett: Yeah, I think so. But obviously my sisters were around, so they're much harder hit, of course, because they were around. For me, it's not a problem at all, because I knew she loved me more than our life. In a moment she can't recognize me anymore, that was not a problem for me. I just felt for her. That's really hard. It must be so hard if you have bright moments where she goes, "Oh my god, you are here, what are you doing here?" and then... it's really not nice. I really sincerely hope that we find medication for that. I think science is in a good way, but still a long way to go. But thanks for that picture. I have it on my phone somewhere, but I don't have it as a... yeah. Thank you very much.

Jürgen Klopp: Faith is a big part of your life as well. Your belief in God.

Steven Bartlett: Yeah.

Jürgen Klopp: And from what I understood, that's not always been the case. When you were a younger man, you weren't religious in the same way that you are now. Is that accurate?

Steven Bartlett: I wouldn't even say I'm religious. I believe, but I don't know 100% what religious means, to be honest. But it's... this lady, my mom, prayed every night before going to bed. The problem was that the one thing we prayed, the other thing she said, because she couldn't be hard with me. She just had no weapons. The only thing she could say was, "Don't forget, if you do that again, I will have to tell your dad at the weekend when he's coming back." So it was the only threat she had, the only weapon she carried around. And I obviously was smart enough to realize that whatever I did, she never told my dad.

From the time that I went to church, I had a short spell where I thought, because Sunday morning church was when I played games, I have to go to church, I cannot play football anymore. But that lasted exactly one game. So one Sunday I thought, God cannot be that hard. He cannot think that I have to go to church when I love football so much. It cannot be like that. And he isn't, I'm pretty sure. So I found my way.

For me, it's about living together. We have to make sure that we don't think the only thing that is interesting is my own well-being. We have to make sure that we understand being alone in a good position doesn't help. Yes, it's completely normal that we all try to get as far as we can in our career, in our life, and all these kinds of things. But it's really important that we make sure that we really try to work properly together, to live properly together. For me, this is my faith. It's based on this understanding, based on my faith. And common sense, obviously. And that's the way I believe. I think that's the best thing you can say about religion when it's like that, that it keeps people in a good place. If religion can't do that, then that's not the right religion for me. So it's really about that we have to be tolerant. It's a wonderful planet, a wonderful world we are living in, but it's not for one or two, it's for all of us. We have to make sure that that works out, and I think the right faith can help you with that. But I don't know what is the right faith, I only know what is for me. So yeah, for me it's the right thing to do, and I never doubted it, to be honest. With all the information you get in life, God is real for me, and Jesus of course. Yeah.

Jürgen Klopp: What goals have you got left to accomplish, Jürgen? What is left on your list, if anything at all? Because you're probably halfway through your life, the way things are going in terms of life expectancy increasing.

Steven Bartlett: Halfway through 116, we have the next podcast. [Laughs] I want to travel. That's what we're doing, start now. I want to be together with Ulla as much as I can, but not that much that she or I don't want to be around each other anymore. Because I really think, you see people and think, "What is your husband doing? Oh, is he home? Oh god." So no, no, I'm not that. But I'm very busy, so I'm a lot away, so that's fine. But I want to spend time with her, with the kids, with the grandkids. I don't have this kind of ambitions. I want to do really well for Red Bull, really well. I already feel responsible for all the people I work together with. That's a very interesting thing for me, that feels so quick, really responsible, but I do. So I want to do it as good as we can, have the best time possible. Let's see what happens then.

But on a private basis, I can tell you with all the things happening around, stay healthy and enjoy this part of life. Because you know now, most things happened and most things were really good. There was another time, your age, when you're not sure where you want to go, where can what's possible, how safe you will be, where will you live in the future. So I know where we will live. I know how things worked out. That's really good. I'm not that old that I cannot move, so move and try and do sports and travel and all these kinds of things. So I'm more than happy with the things, how they turned out, how they happened. I'm really, really happy. I'm surprised how my career was. I never thought that, and you cannot plan it. I'm super happy with my private life, how it is. Super happy with the missus, super happy with the kids, super happy with the grandkids. It's all really good. So what can you want more, really, without sounding ridiculous? And the rest is job, and the job I always wanted to do, as somehow possible, and that's still the case.

Jürgen Klopp: Is he a Man United fan? My god. If you ever want a job at a football club, Manchester United would...

Steven Bartlett: Yeah, yeah, yeah. After all the time we spent together, you want to tell me that... No, but you know, it's really interesting to me because I think there's always an assumption that people want to continue to do the same because that's what you're good at. I know I'm good as a manager. I know. So why should I? I don't have to prove that. Not even to me. I have to prove that? I can raise my hand and tomorrow I can coach club XY and set clubs who are happy now with their manager. And I don't want that. So, but to be my best friend... that might come back that I say, "Okay, I'm ready." That might. I don't know today. But in this moment, it's not that I cannot do what I do while thinking with one leg being still there. I was never like that. I never looked right or left when I was at Mainz. I could have changed the club every year for the first seven. It was so obvious that something special was going on there. The clubs were like, "Oh, we want to have him." And I never thought a second that I want to go there. I wanted to stay at Mainz to do what we do and to learn what I thought I have to learn. Same at Dortmund, same at Liverpool. Until I thought, it's not right. If that comes again, let's see what we will do. That's the decision I wanted. I didn't want to make the job until I barely can move, I barely can travel, I barely... He says, "Can you help me?" I didn't want to do that. Here I'm just sitting, and yes, I'm 25 years older than you, but we both could probably run around the corner now and it would not be the biggest difference.

Jürgen Klopp: You're in great shape.

Steven Bartlett: Because I train. That's how it is. But I never did while I was a manager. That's the next thing. I just grew more and more and more, and now we have time for that as well. So it's good how it is.

Jürgen Klopp: Well, you even as a United fan, you brought so much to the Premier League that it was weirdly sad, also very happy, when you decided that you were going to leave. I felt two feelings at the same time. I felt very, very happy that this Liverpool era was over, because I thought there's no way you leaving. You're more than just a manager. You're the spirit of the city. You're the spirit of the fan base. You actually sort of personify the Liverpool fan base, in my mind: extremely passionate, all in, togetherness. And as your former chairman or owner said, you brought the team together, you then brought the city together. And that had a profound impact both on Liverpool, but also on the Premier League and on my enjoyment and my misery as a rival fan. And that's a really, really remarkable thing. You also inspired me a lot on a personal level as a leader. Just about everything you said there about how important it is to focus equally on the people and the team and the togetherness, and not just on the tactics and the strategy, and how passion can be a wonderful accelerant for performance and for feeling like this is special. That's something that I think you've personified as a leader.

We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. The question is for me now.

Steven Bartlett: Yes.

Jürgen Klopp: The question that's been left for you: as you look back on your career, is there a particular moment, a particular conversation, a particular day that if you could, you would go back and change, or say something you wish you had said?

Steven Bartlett: I honestly... the problem is, I would probably say no. I wouldn't go back and try to change it because it wouldn't have a big impact. The situations we had, the big situations, I could influence with the things I said. The specific moments which were then decisive, you just stand there and watch. Aguero in or not in. We had the same problem with United. The things that he scored, the ball goes in, or the ball is over the line for 11 minutes or not. That has nothing to do with what I say. Would I wish if I could go there and give it a little push? Yes. Would I wish James Madison would block the shot of Vincent Kompany so he cannot score the goal against Leicester? Yes. But it had nothing to do with what I said. And so the things I said, I said in the moment for the right reasons. And sometimes they had the impact I wished and wanted, and sometimes not. I had to accept that.

That was the other thing that Jamie Carragher asked. He said, "When you see Klopp, ask him how he feels about his former assistant manager, Pep Lijnders, going and working at Manchester City."

Absolutely no problem. I like it. I like both Pep. That's how it is. No problem with that. I worked together with Pep Lijnders. He was an inspiration for me every day when we worked together. Absolutely every day. I learned a lot from him. And Pep Guardiola, I couldn't respect a manager more. And when they asked me, a bit like, "What do you think, can we?" Of course you can. Pep Lijnders said, "Come on, find a guy who worked together with Pep Guardiola and Jürgen Klopp. I would read the book." And Pep knew exactly what he was looking for. He wanted exactly this kind of spark, fire. And Pep has that. Pep Lijnders has that. He's an extreme well of energy. So I'm happy for them both.

Jürgen Klopp: We're playing you guys this weekend on Sunday.

Steven Bartlett: What?

Jürgen Klopp: Manchester United-Liverpool. This Sunday. You didn't know. It's at Anfield. It's a Premier League derby. That's crazy that you don't know.

Steven Bartlett: Yeah, yeah. But hopefully after, so this will come out just after that. So I'm hoping that's four losses.

Jürgen Klopp: Oh, we come after that. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett: When do we go to? Hopefully the day after, but we'll see. So hopefully this is your fourth, Liverpool's fourth loss in a row. And the fan base are growing increasingly impatient and annoyed, and Amorim is now one and another game in a row. So this conversation will come out straight after.

Jürgen Klopp: Wow. Now, playing at Anfield. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Good luck. They have to strike back, yeah, you know. That's never a good situation. You know, two days ago or so, just in the morning, I wake up pretty early, so I throw on YouTube and have a look, and it shows me behind-the-scenes footage from the 7-0. The 7-0, oh gosh.

Steven Bartlett: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jürgen Klopp: And I never saw that. I never saw it, but it's the 7-0, obviously. I know the goals and stuff, but it's the camera difference and the stance. It's really good. So, okay, fine, I watch it, 19 minutes, really good. So all the goals again, and you see players in the dressing room or the way to the dressing room, really good. The next day, I open, and because you know how it is with the algorithm, now I see the 5-0 at Manchester. So I watch that. And today I come in here and had no clue that you are a Manchester United fan. So I was really well prepared for that talk, I have to say. Without knowing.

Steven Bartlett: Yeah. Damn. Yeah. Thank you so much, Jürgen. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you for being an inspiration to me, but also thank you for all that you brought to the Northwest and to Liverpool.

Jürgen Klopp: Sure, thanks. You're welcome. It was my pleasure. Honestly, thank you so much.

Steven Bartlett: And I've learned so much from you as a leader and also as a man. In the lead up to this, I spoke to so many people around you that have worked with you. I contacted Jordan Henderson. I spoke to Hargreaves, who knows you through various people. I think you managed him for one game, he said.

Jürgen Klopp: Yeah, yeah, in Australia. In the Australia game.

Steven Bartlett: And they all said the same thing. They all said that you're the same man on and off the camera. You're a person that brings people together. You're extremely likable, but you have high standards and are an incredibly passionate person. The narrative was consistently, "He is the same man on and off camera," which is a credit to yourself. No wonder why people were willing to walk through fire with you. It's incredible what you've accomplished. And I hope, selfishly as a football fan, I hope we see you back in the game at some point. Maybe Real Madrid or Manchester United, whatever. You never know.

Jürgen Klopp: You never know. Thank you so much.