The Ezra Klein Show

What is America doing in Venezuela? On Jan. 3, the Trump administration launched an operation that ended with the capture of President Nicolás Maduro, who is now in New York City on narcoterrorism and weapons charges. “We’re going to run it, essentially, until such time as a proper transition can take place,” Trump said. Mr. Trump’s policy here is strange for a number of reasons: The U.S. is suffering from a fentanyl crisis, but Venezuela is not known as a fentanyl producer. Venezuela’s oil reserves are not the path to geopolitical power that they might have been in the 1970s. Mr. Maduro was a brutal and corrupt dictator, but Mr. Trump has left his No. 2 in charge. And Mr. Trump ran for office promising fewer foreign entanglements — not more. So why Venezuela, and why now? That’s the question we look at in this conversation. Jonathan Blitzer is a staff writer at The New Yorker. He has profiled Stephen Miller and has been following the U.S. military’s drug boat strikes in the Caribbean, as well as the Trump administration’s evolving agenda in Latin America. He’s also the author of the book “Everyone Who Is Gone Is Here: The United States, Central America, and the Making of a Crisis. Mentioned: Everyone Who Is Gone Is Here by Jonathan Blitzer Alien Enemies Act 1979/1980 Refugee Act Monroe Doctrine “How Stephen Miller Manipulates Donald Trump to Further His Immigration Obsession” by Jonathan Blitzer “Who’s Running Venezuela After the Fall of Maduro?” by Jonathan Blitzer Book Recommendations: The Known World by Edward P. Jones What You Have Heard Is True by Carolyn Forché The Spy and the Traitor by Ben Macintyre Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

I like to start the year with a few episodes on things I’m personally working on. Not resolutions, exactly. More like intentions. Or, even better, practices. One of those practices, strange as it sounds, is repeatedly asking the question: “What is this?” It’s a question I got from a book of the same name, by Stephen and Martine Batchelor. In that book, they are describing an approach to Buddhist meditation built on the cultivation of doubt and wonder. You can see that as a spiritual practice, but it’s also an intellectual and ethical one. It is, for me, a practice that has a lot of bearing on politics and journalism. Stephen Batchelor’s latest book, “Buddha, Socrates, and Us: Ethical Living in Uncertain Times,” explores those dimensions of doubt more fully. And so I wanted to have him on the show to discuss the virtues of both certainty and uncertainty, the difficulty of living both ethically and openly. You can see this as a conversation about our inner lives or our outer lives, but of course they are one. And Batchelor, as you’ll hear, is just lovely to listen to. Mentioned: Buddha, Socrates, and Us by Stephen Batchelor What Is This? by Martine Batchelor and Stephen Batchelor Ethics of Care by Carol Gilligan Book Recommendations: Children of a Modest Star by Jonathan S. Blake and Nils Gilman Work Like a Monk by Shoukei Matsumoto The Second Body by Daisy Hildyard Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

This is the strangest economy I’ve seen in my lifetime. If you just looked at the macro data — the jobs numbers, G.D.P., the stock market — things look pretty normal. But they clearly aren’t normal. The Trump administration spent the year upending the global trade system while tech companies spent hundreds of billions of dollars on A.I., a technology that could potentially displace many of our jobs. And people don’t feel normal, either. Survey data shows that the vibecession rages on. Tracy Alloway and Joe Weisenthal are the co-hosts of the excellent economics podcast “Odd Lots” and have closely followed all the chaos this year. So I wanted to have them on the show to explain what the hell is going on. Mentioned: Charts Odd Lots The Three-Body Problem by Cixin Liu “The Vibecession: The Self-Fulfilling Prophecy” by Kyla Scanlon “Everyone is Gambling and No One is Happy” by Kyla Scanlon Book Recommendations: Breakneck by Dan Wang North Woods by Daniel Mason A Marriage at Sea by Sophie Elmhirst The Digital Reversal by Andrey Mir Orality and Literacy by Walter J. Ong No Sense of Place by Joshua Meyrowitz Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Annika Robbins, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Michelle Harris, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Kimberly Clausing, Natasha Sarin and Kyla Scanlon.

What will America’s story be after President Trump? My colleague David Leonhardt did a great series on that question this year, talking to a number of leading politicians. I thought two of those episodes, with Senator Bernie Sanders and with Senator Ruben Gallego, would be of particular interest to you. And they’re great to listen to as a pair. Sanders and Gallego have strong views about where the Democratic Party went wrong and how it can win back working-class voters in particular — views that have a lot of overlap but also some interesting shades of difference. So I wanted to share both conversations. You can learn more about our sister show “The Opinions” here — and subscribe wherever you find your podcasts.

“This lightbulb went off that almost no one was asking these questions.” In 2006, Elie Hassenfeld and a few of his friends pooled some money they wanted to donate to charity. And they wanted to find charities where their money would go the farthest in improving lives. That information, it turned out, was incredibly hard to find. That was the seed of GiveWell. For almost a decade, GiveWell has dedicated itself to rigorously researching the impact of charities around the world and channeling donations to the ones that are the most effective at saving lives. It might sound simple, but this was a radically new approach in the world of charitable giving, and the work itself isn’t simple at all. I’ve supported GiveWell through the years. So as the year winds down and other people might be thinking about giving to a charity, I wanted to invite Hassenfeld, GiveWell’s chief executive, on the show to talk through this work. How does it measure impact? Are there limits to what you can measure? As an organization, has it made mistakes? What does it really mean to give well? If you like what you hear, I hope you’ll also consider donating to GiveWell. Learn more at givewell.org. Mentioned: GiveWell “Trust in Radical Truth and Radical Transparency” by Ray Dalio Harlem Children’s Zone Against Malaria Foundation Helen Keller Intl New Incentives No Lean Season Clinton Health Access Initiative (CHAI) PATH GiveDirectly ALIMA Book Recommendations: Factfulness by Hans Rosling with Ola Rosling and Anna Rosling Rönnlund Poor Economics by Abhijit V. Banerjee and Esther Duflo Behind the Beautiful Forevers by Katherine Boo Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Aman Sahota and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

This is one of my favorite conversations in recent memory — with the writer Zadie Smith. Smith is the author of novels, including “White Teeth,” “On Beauty” and “NW,” as well as many essays and short stories. Her ability to give language to the kinds of quiet battles that live inside of ourselves is part of why she’s been one of my favorite writers for years. “We absolutely need to gather in our identity groups sometimes for our freedoms, for our civil rights. There’s absolutely no doubt about that. But for that role to be the thing that is you existentially all the way down — that is something that I personally believe all human beings revolt from at some level,” she told me when we spoke last September, shortly before  Trump’s re-election. It’s ideas like these that I found interesting to revisit now, in a starkly different political climate. In this conversation, we discuss Smith’s novel, “The Fraud,” which Smith wrote with Trump and populism front of mind; what populism is really channeling; why Smith refuses the “bait” of wokeness; how people have been “modified” by smartphones and social media; and more. This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: Feel Free by Zadie Smith “Fascinated to Presume: In Defense of Fiction” by Zadie Smith Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman “Generation Why?” by Zadie Smith Book Recommendations: The Director by Daniel Kehlmann The Rebel’s Clinic by Adam Shatz The Diaries of Virginia Woolf Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

Gavin Newsom is the 2028 Democratic front-runner. That’s what many of the polls and the Polymarket betting odds say. It’s been widely believed that Newsom wants to run for president someday. But belief that he could be a front-runner was less common. A liberal white guy from a state that much of the country considers badly governed just didn’t seem like the profile the Democratic Party was looking for. But as a Californian who has watched Newsom for a long time, I was surprised by him this year. After President Trump returned to the White House, Newsom started a podcast, interviewing people like Charlie Kirk, Steve Bannon and Michael Savage, which made a lot of Democrats mad. At the same time, Newsom turned himself into the leader of the resistance — trolling Trump on social media and pushing a ballot initiative to end California’s independent redistricting to counter the partisan redistricting effort in Texas. Newsom has been willing to try things and take risks. He has shown a feel for this moment — in politics and in the way attention works now. But it’s still true that he runs a state that the country considers badly governed. California tops the rankings of unaffordable states, at a time when affordability has become a central electoral issue. In this conversation, I ask Newsom about all of this — what he learned this year from talking to figures on the right, how he thinks the Democratic Party can win back voters it lost, why California is so unaffordable and what he’s doing about it. Mentioned: Applebee’s America by Ron Fournier, Douglas B. Sosnik and Matthew J. Dowd “And, This Is Charlie Kirk” “And, This Is Gaming Culture & Gen-Z Nihilism With Content Creator Brandon “Atrioc” Ewing” “And, This Is Michael Savage” “And, This Is Steve Bannon” “Newsom Says Trump’s Attacks Are ‘Not Normal’” “Barack Obama 2004 Democratic National Convention Keynote Speech” Book Recommendations: Built to Last by Jim Collins, Jerry I. Porras Meditations by Marcus Aurelius 1929 by Andrew Ross Sorkin Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker and Aman Sahota. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

I answer your questions on the year’s political lessons, the struggles of young men and handling heat on the show. The end-of-year Ask Me Anything episode has become a tradition on the show. So as 2025 comes to a close, I’m joined by Claire Gordon, the show’s executive producer, to answer your questions about an eventful year — how my thinking on the Trump administration has evolved, how well the Democratic Party has played its chips, what I think it means to be a Democrat right now, whether “Abundance” is centrist, how politicians might address adriftness of young people, how I’ve handled the criticism the show has received and how many packets of Splenda I consume in a day. Note: This conversation was recorded on Tuesday, Dec. 2, and does not reflect more recent developments in Congress’s review of the Sept. 2 boat attack. Mentioned: “Don’t Believe Him” by Ezra Klein “The Supreme Court Is Backing Trump’s Power Grab” by Ezra Klein “What if Trump Just Ignores the Courts?” by Ezra Klein “The Republican Party’s NPC Problem — and Ours” by Ezra Klein “Abundance and the Left" by Ezra Klein “The Emergency Is Here” by Ezra Klein “Stop Acting Like This Is Normal” by Ezra Klein “What Were Democrats Thinking?” by Ezra Klein “The Goon Squad” by Daniel Kolitz Dragonriders of Pern Series by Anne McCaffrey and Todd J. McCaffrey Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

My colleague Ross Douthat talks to the journalist who exposed Jeffrey Epstein. This episode of “Interesting Times,” with the Miami Herald investigative journalist Julie K. Brown, came out back in July. But since Epstein has very much stayed in the news, I wanted to share it now. The conversation is such a fascinating and helpful explainer of the whole case, and the questions that remain unanswered — with the woman whose reporting led to Epstein’s re-arrest.  If you haven’t had a chance to check out “Interesting Times” this year, you really should. The team has produced so many great episodes, especially with leading thinkers and activists on the right. You can find them on the NYT Audio app, Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.

On Monday night, in front of a live audience, I talked to Fareed Zakaria about the different political age he believes we’ve entered. Zakaria is the host of “Fareed Zakaria GPS” on CNN and the author of the 2024 book “Age of Revolutions: Progress and Backlash From 1600 to the Present.” To mark the release of the book in paperback, Zakaria invited me to have this conversation at Symphony Space in New York City. We discuss the “revolution” we may be living through, the forces driving it,  and how the Democratic Party can adapt. Mentioned: The Tea Party and the Remaking of Republican Conservatism by Theda Skocpol and Vanessa Williamson "The Time Tax" by Annie Lowrey "Behind Trump and Vance Is This Man’s Movement" by Ezra Klein "The end of progress against extreme poverty?" by Max Roser "What Does the ‘Post-Liberal Right’ Actually Want?" by The Ezra Klein Show Escape from Freedom by Erich Fromm Book Recommendations: A Preface to Morals by Walter Lippmann The Coming Of Post-Industrial Society by Daniel Bell The Lost City by Alan Ehrenhalt Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Mixing by Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Dan Powell and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

Patti Smith, “the Godmother of Punk,” has lived a wild life and accumulated so much wisdom in the process. In the 1960s and ’70s, Smith was a fixture of the New York City creative scene — hanging out with the likes of Bob Dylan, Janis Joplin, Allen Ginsberg and Robert Mapplethorpe. Merging her own poetry with an ace backing band, she became a global rock star. Then she gave it up, moved to Michigan, raised a family, and remade herself into a best-selling author. Her stunning memoir “Just Kids” won the National Book Award and is one of the books that I’ve kept returning to, again and again. There is clearly something unusual about Smith. People who know her have described her as “shamanistic.” But even for those of us who will never become rock stars, there’s something inspiring — and oddly relatable — in how she thinks about life. So I was excited to have the opportunity to sit down with her and learn more. Smith is out with a new memoir, “Bread of Angels,” and is on tour for the 50th anniversary of her breakthrough album, “Horses.” We talk about that book and that album and so much more: the boundless curiosity that drives her; the books that shaped her; her childhood communion with a snapping turtle; what Andy Warhol was like; what color she thinks the soul is; and a lot more that’s hard even to describe. This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: “Pan’s Labyrinth” by Guillermo del Toro Grimm’s Complete Fairy Tales by Jacob Grimm and Wilhelm Grimm Bread of Angels by Patti Smith Just Kids by Patti Smith “The Dark Blot” by Gérard de Nerval “Genie” by Arthur Rimbaud “Guernica” by Pablo Picasso “The Last Supper” by Andy Warhol Book Recommendations: The Adventures of Pinocchio by Carlo Collodi Frankenstein by Mary Shelley The Poetry of Sylvia Plath Edited by Claire Brennan 2666 by Roberto Bolaño Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Annika Robbins. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Michelle Harris, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Caryn Rose and Annika Robbins.

Is this the future of MAGA? Tucker Carlson’s interview with the white nationalist influencer Nick Fuentes has caused a firestorm on the right. Carlson and Fuentes’s friendly chat about American Jews — whether they fit into this country or were loyal to Israel above all — was the kind of conversation that for decades would have been unimaginable among mainstream figures in politics. And by crossing that line, Carlson was making a statement — about the power of Fuentes’s movement and the future of MAGA. To help me think through this, I wanted to talk to the political writer John Ganz. He’s studied the roots of antisemitism on the right and has followed the evolution of MAGA closely. He’s behind the newsletter Unpopular Front and the author of “When the Clock Broke: Con Men, Conspiracists, and How America Cracked Up in the Early 1990s.” This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: “Unpopular Front” by John Ganz “Finding Neverland” by John Ganz “Groyperfication” by John Ganz Book Recommendations: Taking America Back by David Austin Walsh Furious Minds by Laura K. Field Prophets of Deceit by Norbert Guterman & Leo Lowenthal Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Ashley Braun. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

Democrats’ case for the government shutdown was just starting to break through to voters. Why fold now? Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html This column read was produced by Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Jack McCordick. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with mixing by Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Marina King, Emma Kehlbeck and Jan Kobal. Original music by Aman Sahota and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Democrats won big on Tuesday. It looks like the MAGA coalition has started to crack. Ezra is joined by his column editor, Aaron Retica, to discuss the big lessons for Democrats as they eye the midterms next year, and whether an anti-MAGA playbook is coming into focus. This episode contains strong language. NOTE: We're recording an "Ask Me Anything" episode soon. You can send your question to ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com with the subject line "AMA." We'll consider any questions submitted on or before the morning of Monday November 11 at 10am ET. Mentioned: “This Is the Way You Beat Trump — and Trumpism” by Ezra Klein Ordinary Vices by Judith N. Shklar Marc Maron's podcast with Barack Obama “Zohran’s Smile” by Anand Ghiridharadas Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Kate Sinclair and Marie Cascione. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Mixing by Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

Democrats don’t just need to win more people; they also need to win more places. And that requires a different kind of thinking. Mentioned: "How Liberalism Wins" by Ezra Klein Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Claire Gordon, Marie Cascione and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Isaac Jones.