--:-- Joe Rogan: The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.
--:-- Joe Rogan: All right, bro. My man. What's up? Good to see you, my brother.
--:-- Jack Carr: Great to see you. Always great to see you.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I've been so looking forward to this. I've been going 1,000 miles an hour for, it seems like, a long time.
--:-- Jack Carr: Me too, man. And I've been really looking forward to talking to you about this book, because I know that you've been obsessed. You've been obsessed by this era in human history.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Tell us about it.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, yeah. So this is 1968, Vietnam. I just launched the book tour not last night, but the night before, because last night was Comedy Mothership, Kill Tony, which was amazing.
--:-- Joe Rogan: The best show in the world.
--:-- Jack Carr: It was so crazy.
--:-- Joe Rogan: The best show to go to. Did they vet any of those people, by the way, before they come up?
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, didn't look like it. Insane people, brilliant people, great comics, terrible comics. That was fantastic. That's the best show ever. That was fantastic, but yeah, I kicked off the book tour with David Murrell, who created Rambo back in 1972 with First Blood.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, wow.
--:-- Jack Carr: So that was a huge honor for me. He's been an inspiration to me my whole life. And I wrote a series of books in the 80s, Brotherhood of the Rose, Fraternity of the Stone, League of Night and Fog, which were just incredible, and I got to kick off the book tour with him out there. Signed a baby for the first time. I've never signed a baby. Someone brought a baby through and asked me to sign their kid.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That seems wrong.
--:-- Jack Carr: It does. Then I realized they just wanted me to sign the shirt on the baby, which was a little better than the actual skin of the baby, so I did that.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I'd be worried they would tattoo the baby.
--:-- Jack Carr: Two new tattoos came through, so I saw two new very large tattoos of crossed tomahawks.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Crossed tomahawks, nice. That's crazy. I mean, you've had that for a while. You've had people doing that for a while for you. But I remember the first time I got one, I think it was after that I was on, or right around the same time. And the first time I was on, it's like 2020. The first time I saw it, I texted you and sent it. It was like someone tattooed the crossed tomahawks on themselves. And you've had that with you for a while. And it was weird the first time, and now you see it, it must be kind of normal because a lot of people have tattoos of you.
--:-- Jack Carr: It's not normal. It's not normal. You know, it's weird. It's very weird.
--:-- Joe Rogan: They'll probably grow to regret them.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That doesn't happen with tattoos, does it?
--:-- Jack Carr: No. Not mine. I don't regret mine. I like mine. It's a life story.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It's a life story. Yeah. It's awesome. It depends on what you got. And timing. And maybe if you got someone's name on there that's no longer a part of your life. Maybe the wife wants you to get that removed.
--:-- Jack Carr: Perhaps. Turn into a snake.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I've heard that. Exactly. But yeah, the book, 1968, Vietnam. And I thought this was going to be the book that was going to take me the least amount of time because I thought I had this foundation of knowledge when it comes to warfare, Vietnam in particular, those lessons. I had the influence of popular culture when it comes to the 60s and Vietnam as well growing up. So I thought I was well prepared to dive into this world. And I didn't want to just say that they're listening to Creedence Clearwater Revival and that it's 1968 and then essentially drop a contemporary thriller into the 60s, into Vietnam 1968. Instead, I wanted someone who lived through that era to know that I put in the effort and any sentence had to be written through the lens of 1968 without the benefit of 50 plus years of hindsight. So if someone is 70 years old, 50 years old, 20 years old, they only have their life experience up to that point to make a decision for perspective on an event. And that took a lot more time than I thought. I got a dictionary from 1969. I couldn't find the one from 1968 I wanted. So I got a dictionary from 1969 to look at how terms were defined back then, a lot of maps from the era. And it just took a lot longer, which is why we're here in October and not in January or June when the book was supposed to come out.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, wow. So when you get a dictionary from 1968, what is the difference?
--:-- Jack Carr: Well, that's what I wanted to find out. Is there a lot of difference? I'm sure there is, but I was looking at just some specific terms that I can't remember what they are right now, but I just wanted to look them up through that book. I didn't want to Google something today. I wanted to be doing this research as if I was in the 60s. And so if I needed to look something up, whether it was spelling or whatever else, I wanted to use that instead of like asking the Google machine. So I just wanted to transport myself back in time. And yeah, that was quite the endeavor I didn't expect at the outset.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I feel like that war in particular, it's like World War Two was what we think America is. Vietnam is what America really is.
--:-- Jack Carr: That is a very perceptive insight.
--:-- Joe Rogan: So World War II, we were fighting evil. We were stopping the rise of Hitler and the Third Reich. World War II was just. Vietnam was fucking nonsense. And it's still, to this day, it infuriates people that participated in it. It infuriates people who lost family members. It didn't make any sense. It was birthed on a lie. It was a complete false flag event that our own government, they lied to us and told us that the Gulf of Tonkin, there was an incident where one of our battleships was attacked and it wasn't. It was all a lie. And it was just to get us into this fucking war. And there's a whole bunch of people that made a whole bunch of money and a bunch of people died. And at the end of it, everybody felt broken. And during it, there was a gigantic cultural revolution in the middle of it. That's the real America.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, it's something that I explore in the book. And the benefit of hindsight, it's certainly more, it's more, not relevant, but you can draw that out for sure, the benefit of hindsight. And I'm trying to write this thing in 1968 from these guys. So they're having these conversations with only that information. So they don't yet know who's making a ton of money. They're not knowing about Bell helicopters and all the rest of this stuff. They don't really know yet about Gulf of Tonkin. They just know that 1968 is the bloodiest year thus far of the war, and it's going to be the bloodiest year of the war so far, which is why I set it in that year.
--:-- Joe Rogan: How many people died that year?
--:-- Jack Carr: Well, over 58,000 in total, and I forget exactly how many for that particular year, but we lost more people that year and had more people wounded than any other year of the war. But over 58,000 people died in Vietnam on our side, to say nothing of the Vietnamese, NVA, Viet Cong, civilians all put together, but certainly a lot more than 58,000. And over what? So I'm trying to look at it through the lens of the day. And when you look at the domino effect, we look back and say, of course, the rest of the world wouldn't have fallen to communism. But at the time, I tried to put myself into the shoes of the people making these decisions. And at least for Southeast Asia, there was the threat of other countries falling. Even if they did, would that have meant anything long term for the rest of us? Today it's hard to say that it would have. But the whole thing is so heartbreaking. And you're right, when we got back from World War II, those guys had parades. They got back to work. They used the GI Bill. They built this country into what it is today. Vietnam, those guys, it was looked at like they went bankrupt. It was like a company going bankrupt. And not only that, when they came back, they were called baby killers. They were met at the airport by protesters. They had all that to deal with, all that baggage to deal with. And that left a scar on an entire generation. And really a lot of that started with the Kennedy assassination in 1963 and then we move on into the war and this becomes the first televised war. So there were photographs of the Civil War, photographs of World War I, World War II. We were getting the newsreels when you go to the movies on Saturday and see the matinee. But that's a very different type of way to get your news because you're seeing it once a week or you're seeing a still photograph in a paper. Then we get to Vietnam and now you're seeing it every day on the news. You're seeing Walter Cronkite there give you that news and you're watching these guys in foxholes and you're seeing this shooting and you're seeing this chaos. And then also the media, I think this is the first time where the media realizes they are not just a pillar as a check on government. They realize at this point that they actually have power to influence events and policy. So how they report from Vietnam, very different from how reporters, even in Korea, but let's say World War II, very different from how reporters reported on that war. And now I think in Vietnam, you have these guys in Saigon, and they realize and they're staying at these amazing hotels, and they're partying it up at night. And some of them are going to the outskirts of town. So it looks like they're out in the rice paddies or whatever, and then they're going back to their hotel for drinks. But they realize during this time that they can influence policy. And so that's what we see with the Tet Offensive. We see that as a complete tactical win for the United States. But it becomes a loss for us, a huge strategic loss for us because of the way that it's reported. And the media is involved in that.
--:-- Joe Rogan: So they didn't know it before. What was the issue? The media distorted what was going on?
--:-- Jack Carr: We just reported what was going on and talked about this huge victory for the NVA and for North Vietnam. And it wasn't really, but it was when they reported it that way. And then we see more of America turning against this war and policy shifts and more people shipped into Vietnam. So the whole thing is so sad. And I try to humanize it and personalize it in this book because you can read about, I think it's the importance of reading fiction also. Because you get a compassion there and an empathy for people because you're living something through their eyes, even though it's fiction, that you don't get really through nonfiction. You can read about all these numbers. You can read about 58,000. But when you read a story like this, then you're getting to know these characters and you're going through this thing with them. And that then becomes part of your experience. So even say, let's say Bud's going through SEAL training. Yeah, I'm thinking back to Normandy and I'm thinking back to Iwo Jima. I'm thinking back to Vietnam and what these guys had to go through. And then I'm realizing I can do a few more pushups in the sand here in Coronado, California. All those guys died and sacrificed so much so that I could be here. But some of that comes through the works of fiction, the thrillers that I was reading growing up from guys who had backgrounds in Vietnam or just from things they're dealing with in contemporary thrillers of the day. But that became part of my experience and I didn have to. It's almost like you're living it even though it's all made up. So that's the importance of reading in general and the beacon of reading. When we look at 2003 to 2025 and the drop in reading that has occurred, that is scary.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Do you think that's because of the Internet?
--:-- Jack Carr: Oh, yeah. I mean, it corresponds almost directly with the rise of the smartphone. And, of course, it continues to drop today. So I think I'm getting into publishing and Hollywood and probably one of the worst times in the last hundred years that one could decide to do something like this with AI and all the rest of it. And less people reading and less people. There's no backside. There's no box office for movies anymore.
--:-- Joe Rogan: No, the worst time to get into it is tomorrow.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, good point.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It's way better that you already have The Terminal List and Dark Wolf on TV.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, you're way better off. Trying today, they'd be like, we have no use for scripts.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, man.
--:-- Jack Carr: We wrote 100 scripts in the time it took you to walk up the stairs.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, man, I know. We put in prompts. I want a Vietnam thriller involving a handsome football player who tries to go do the best for his country, but realizes, like Pat Tillman style, gets disillusioned when he gets there.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, I mean, it's a thing. I think CAA, my talent agency, just sent me a thing the other day and said that one of these OpenAI deals, I think it was a $1.5 billion settlement or something, and that they'd used my books. And I'm sure they've used this podcast. I'm sure they've used all sorts of things. But the settlement out of that for me is possibly $1,000.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Congratulations.
--:-- Jack Carr: Well, thank you. And I thought, well, my attorney's going to be-
--:-- Joe Rogan: Where's the rest of that money going? Is my attorney only going to take an hour to do this? Because that's about- Makes it a wash.
--:-- Jack Carr: Exactly. But then do you not do it? Because then they just hold them up. I don't know. It's crazy. Take the $1,000. But then I have to pay like $6,000 to get the $1,000.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Do you really?
--:-- Jack Carr: I would think.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, that's hilarious. I'm sure they're going to spend like six hours. They can't just give it to you?
--:-- Jack Carr: I don't think so. I mean, if I even ask the question, the thousand's gone.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Cut me a check, bitch.
--:-- Jack Carr: I don't think it works that way.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, no. Because I don't even know. But the AI part is interesting. I was talking to, so I was in Morocco filming True Believer just a couple weeks ago. So we finished up filming out there with Pratt and everybody. It was amazing. And from Morocco, you fly through France on the way home. So I stopped in Paris for a few days, met my wife out there, met some other friends out there, went to a bunch of dinners and things like that. But one of them's a guy named Rick Rosenfield. He started California Pizza Kitchen back in 1985. And they were gonna put one in one of the Wynn hotels in Vegas, and we were talking about AI, and that's how this plays in here. And he said, he told me this story, and I get this is the general gist, it might not be the exact detail but the general gist is right. They were gonna put one into one of the Wynn casinos. And so he goes in there with Steve Wynn and they're walking through and Waylon Jennings is with them. So they're all there, these three guys: Steve Wynn, Rick Rosenfield, and Waylon Jennings. And they go in and Steve Wynn says, "Hey, Waylon, we have this cover band. We have this guy that does just your cover tunes. He's a huge fan of yours and I'd appreciate if you said hi to him." And Waylon Jennings is like, "Yeah, no problem." So the cover band guy is like Jaylen Winnings or something, let's call him that, I don't know what his real name is. He sits down and they're having drinks and the guy's like, "I love all your stuff, thank you so much. I hope it's okay that I'm doing these cover bands, but you're just, I idolize you." And Waylon Jennings is sitting there, he goes, "Oh yeah, you know, no problem. Only there is one problem though with what you're doing." And the guy's like, "What? What?" And he said, "You're always one album behind." And I was like, "Oh." And this guy told me this story in the context of AI and someone using my books to write another book that has a similar tone or write this in the style of Jack Carr with some prompts. And I was saying that I was a little concerned about this and just don't know what's going to happen in the future. And he told me that story and so I'm like, "Oh, that's fantastic. They're always going to be a book behind."
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, but AI is not a cover band. AI is a lot smarter than us. That's the problem. The problem is, I don't know if you're paying attention to what it's been doing with music. Jamie, show them some of the interviews that you made.
--:-- Jack Carr: I showed them up there.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, yeah. Those are crazy. This is crazy. Some people, Muhammad Ali, yeah, on the podcast. Yeah, Michael Jackson. Yeah, Michael Jackson on the podcast. And it's not difficult for it to do stuff like that. And so we're not talking about a cover band. We're talking about someone that can do something or something that can accomplish a task that human beings can't.
--:-- Jack Carr: Man, now I'm bummed out again. I was all positive a second ago.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Play that. This is so crazy.
--:-- [AI-generated audio plays]
--:-- AI Voice: You've got to act like it every day. That means working with nobody, watching, staying humble, but never doubting yourself.
--:-- AI Voice: You still carry that mindset now?
--:-- AI Voice: Oh, it's in me forever. You don't stop being a champion just because the bell ain't ringing. When you sit down like this with a microphone, you can't hide anything. Your breathing, your hesitation, even your heartbeat comes through. If you try to be someone else, you're going to grow up with nothing, man. You learn quickly. You can trust. Every smile, every handshake you wave.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That's terrible. They might figure that one out. That one's terrible. That's terrible.
--:-- [Different AI audio plays]
--:-- AI Voice: Man, you ever notice how life sneaks up on you like a bill you forgot you had? One day you're cool, next day you're like, who left this responsibility on my porch?
--:-- Joe Rogan: Stop that.
--:-- [Another AI audio plays]
--:-- AI Voice: You think the whole world is waiting for you to show up and then you find out the world was busy already. The trick is figuring out how to join in without losing you.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I would say hearing it through these headphones now, you can hear that weird tinge. That's supposed to be Lee Harvey Oswald. Doesn't really look like him. A little bit. Like a really young Lee Harvey Oswald. Anyway, we're fucked. That's crazy. We're fucked. Bottom line is. And music is really fucked. Like, we were playing this 50 Cent cover. They did the song "Many Men" but they did it with like a soul singer from like the 1950s or 1960s. It's incredible. It's so good. It's like one of my favorite songs. It's not even a real person. It's not even a real person. It's so good. We were all in the green room the other night. We're like, if this guy was a real dude, he would be like the biggest star in the world right now because everybody would want to hear him sing. I mean, Milli Vanilli just did it a little too early. Well, Milli Vanilli just lip synced. This is a totally different experience. This is like, they're going to create stuff with your voice better than anything you can do. It's so brutal. But for the kids, at least we're aware of it. So we can choose. Maybe we can choose. It's going to be hard to like some of these things. It's going to be hard to figure out at some point, but I almost think there needs to be, remember the parental advisories in the eighties, they put on CDs and stuff like that back then. Like, at least, if I want to go in, I want to buy this piece of art right here. And I walk into that store and I love this thing and I put it in my house and it's there for 10 years. And I show everybody that comes in. But what if that thing is, I don't know that no one actually made that. That was just AI made that. And I find out 10 years later, is that different? Is that a different experience now for me? Do I feel cheated?
--:-- Jack Carr: I don't know.
--:-- Joe Rogan: You should feel cheated.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. But if you buy it, there has to be a little thing on it, I don't know, that tells you. Then you're aware.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Well, part of what art is, is someone made it. That's what makes it kind of cool. If it was made by a computer, it doesn't have a piece of a person in it. Are people going to care like our kids? Are they going to care? I don't know because I don't care about that song so I don't know what to say. I don't want to be a hypocrite, but it's inevitable. It's happening. You're going to have to deal with it and adapt. And I think what it means to be a person is going to change. That's so brutal. I don't think it's possible to avoid change, and this is the direction that change is going. And so at your essence, what are you and who are you? You have to search for that in different ways. And you're probably not going to be able to search for it the same way through music and books if you find out that these music and books weren't actually written by like-minded people. Or is it that the lessons and the energy of the music and the lessons of the books, it is from people, because what AI has done is they've absorbed all of the art that everyone has ever created ever in terms of literature and music and even comedy and whatever. And it's combined it together in a style that's completely variable. You can have it like Amy Winehouse. You can make it sound like Biggie Smalls. You can make it sound like anything. But it is all imitating everything that humans have created and will still affect humans and maybe inspire us more and maybe put a premium on something that's created by an actual human and not by AI. Maybe it'll become more valuable.
--:-- Jack Carr: Hope so.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah. Hope so. Put the books on, like, hey, this is made by an actual human. No AI was used. I haven't used it yet. I haven't used ChatGPT or anything like that. I can barely update my Word. That's what I want to do, like keep my Word updated. That's the main thing. But I know a lot of people that are using it and love it and have a relationship with this.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I use Perplexity for questions on the show now. It's a sponsor and so like every time we have questions. Well look, it's a valuable resource. I feel like especially for someone who does something like this, it's crazy to not use something like that.
--:-- Jack Carr: I don't think everyone thinks that change is bad. Everyone's scared of change. They were scared of the printing press. I mean, people have been scared of the wheel. They were scared of the locomotive. People are scared of everything.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, I'm not scared of it. I'm scared that it could potentially fuck up society, but I feel like that's just what's going to happen. You know, it's just, we go through cycles. Go to Rome, go look around. What happened? Where did everybody go? There's still people living here, but that society that built that, that fell apart. Same thing with Athens. Same thing with many, many, many places in the world. Societies crumble. There's a cycle. We are not immune to that cycle because we're aware of it. They were aware of it too. They were all aware of crumbling civilizations and once great civilizations that had fallen.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I think if you learn to think for yourself, you think logically. If you read, kids today, if they put down that phone and just read, that is a superpower. They will get out there and crush. Read, work out, do some MMA, BJJ stuff, do a little boxing. But read, you are going to just leave everyone else in the dust when it comes to whatever you want to do next in life, out of high school, out of college, whatever it is. If you have that foundation, then you're going to be a more empathetic, compassionate person. But you're going to have this knowledge base that other people are relying on ChatGPT, whatever it is, their phone, whatever, to do that thinking for them.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, it's amazing how many people just don't consume any nonfiction or fiction. They don't consume anything but like TikTok and Netflix.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yes, it is absolutely brutal. It's kind of nuts. Like I said about the time to enter publishing. I think a great time is the 90s for that because you had, let's see, Michael Crichton and then you had John Grisham. Like every other year there was some Michael Crichton movie and then a John Grisham movie. And they had the best directors, actors of the day, producers of the day. And then people bought books. They were still reading back then because there wasn't yet the internet. There wasn't yet all these other things that distract you. So those guys got to crush. I think that was maybe the golden age of being an author and adapting your stuff to film or television, mostly film back then. But those guys got to crush. And today not as much. But it's fun though. It's still fun to create. It's still fun to do all this. It's still fun to be in Morocco doing this stuff. There's guys like you that are still doing it. It's still doable.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yep, still doable. That's for sure. But the payday's not the same.
--:-- Joe Rogan: You did the right way though. You did it on Amazon. They gave you a lot of creative freedom. You got great people to work with. That's the right way. I mean, I'm a big fan of the Gray Man series. I think he's a great writer. But his stuff is so much more violent and gritty than what was portrayed in the film. The film glossed it up and made it a little pretty.
--:-- Jack Carr: Right. That's what happens for the most part. It's like Carl Hiaasen. Did you see Bad Monkey with Vince Vaughn?
--:-- Jack Carr: It's on Apple.
--:-- Joe Rogan: What is it?
--:-- Jack Carr: He's a cop that's kind of down on his luck, and he's on suspension or whatever, and he lives in the Keys, so it has that whole Keys vibe, and they film it down there. And so you recognize, if you've been there, you recognize all these places. But Carl Hiaasen is the author, and he has this very unique style. But what he says about Hollywood is he drives to the border of California. He throws his book over the border. They throw a bunch of money back at him, and he drives back to Florida. And whatever happens, happens. It's one way to look at it. But most authors aren't involved, and they're in whatever happens. They like to get rid of that author right away.
--:-- Joe Rogan: So you're not on set saying you ruined my vision. Yeah, I get that. But it seems like what you're doing is better because you're involved in it and then it reaches your vision or as close as you're going to get. You help add value.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. You want to make it the best show you possibly can.
--:-- Joe Rogan: When I saw *The Terminal List*, I was like, this is about as close as you can get and do a TV show and not have it rated NC-17, like super hyper graphic.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, yeah. But it's way harder to do that in a movie. To take a book. Because you only have an hour and a half, two hours.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, your books take hours to read.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, and we have seven hours for *Dark Wolf*, eight hours for *The Terminal List*. We'll have eight hours for *True Believer*. That's the way to do it. And that one, that is the hunting stuff in it. So once again, I think if we'd started with that, or if I'd started with that as a book, it would have been much more difficult because Amazon would have been much more hesitant. But since we had a success with *The Terminal List*, now they're taking this risk with us. Just like my publisher did. It would have been very easy as a publisher to say, "Hey, just do what you did in that first book that was successful. Just take that same kind of stuff and drop it internationally or something like that."
--:-- Jack Carr: Instead, I had this whole journey across in the book. It's the Atlantic in the show. It's going to be the Pacific. But going across this journey of violent redemption, he still thinks he's going to die, gets to Mozambique, still thinks he's going to die, doesn't die yet. And so because he has this tumor, he uses the skills from Iraq and Afghanistan to help with the poaching problem over there. And then the actual story kicks off from there. I thought it would be disingenuous to the reader to have this character that went through all the things he went through in *The Terminal List*—all this traumatic stuff, losing his family, losing his whole troop in Afghanistan—and then all of a sudden he's okay and just out to save the world in the next book. So I had to take him on this journey. I kind of thought that my editor and publisher would say, "Hey, cut out the first third of this book and we got something here." Instead, they didn't say any of that. They took this risk with me, and it really differentiated that book and me as an author. And now Amazon's doing the same thing. So we have Chris Pratt going across the ocean. He's got this crazy long hair. He lost a ton of weight for this thing. He's battling the storms and his demons. Then he gets to Mozambique, and same thing, he goes through this second episode where he's out there doing this poacher thing, using his skills. We filmed in Africa, so we got these amazing landscapes. It's probably one of the most beautiful visions of Africa that I've ever seen on film. It's just incredible. Chris is totally into it, of course. And the guy who got to play Rich Hastings—I don't know if we can say his name yet—but he's awesome. He is so good. He's kind of like the older guy, kind of mentoring James Reese along. He's a guy's guy. I'll say his name: Arnold Vosloo. He's the bad guy from *Blood Diamond* and *The Mummy*. Just such an awesome guy. He's like one of us, so you didn't need to tell him what to do with the rifle. He knew what to do with that double rifle. He's not messing around.
--:-- Jack Carr: So it was so fun to do that. But that is a risk that Amazon is taking, to do those first two episodes, to invest all this money in this thing where there's something to do with the development of the character, but not really to do with the rest of the story and him then saving the world. But they went along with it. And that's because they saw the numbers from the first season. They'll never share those numbers with us, but we know what they are because there have been almost no notes in this one. The first one, there was notes constantly. They didn't want Chris to get somebody. They didn't want that to happen. And then we did it anyway. And they ended up being on every billboard in LA for the opening month. They didn't want the Secretary of Defense to die. So there were all sorts of things that they were very nervous about, but they ended up going with us. They ended up trusting us. But now we didn't have to fight for it in the second season or in *Dark Wolf* because we have that trust. So that's pretty cool.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That is nice. That's the beautiful thing about a successful series. It gives you more freedom. Don't fuck it up.
--:-- Jack Carr: Instead of "we got to make it better because it's not a hit," it's "don't fuck it up."
--:-- Joe Rogan: Exactly. And Taylor was here. Taylor was awesome. What a great guy. Such a good dude. He's so cool. So different from that character he plays in *American Primeval*. He's so scary. So good. So realistic. Like you really believe he's a fucking savage. You really believe everything about it. The way he fucks people up. Even what he looks like. You talked about how much weight he lost for that. When he takes his clothes off and you see the scars all over his body, like, whoa.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, they went through it on that one. And Pete Berg on it, too.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, Pete Berg was on here. Pete Berg's a fucking man. He's awesome. It's like when you see that, you believe that guy. That guy looks like someone who would be living like that back then.
--:-- Jack Carr: Oh yeah, and he got beat up on that. He went right from that into our show where he gets beat up again. We had to do this thing in episode 4 where I have my cameo where I get stitched up the side and get killed. I got part of the stunt man. I get killed again. I get killed in *True Believer* too, and it's a good one.
--:-- Joe Rogan: But are people going to see that it's you this time? You're going to give yourself a fake nose?
--:-- Jack Carr: It's the same. It's kind of like making a little thing about the show, like I always die somehow. Stephen King does. I don't think he dies in them, though. I think they just kind of do a... He's been in a bunch of his movies. He doesn't die in his movies.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It's not "Who Killed Kenny."
--:-- Jack Carr: Exactly. So this will be a little different. Our twist on it. Our take on it.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That's awesome.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. That's fun to do that stuff. But Taylor had to run through these cobblestone streets through this tunnel. And that's the one where I get stitched up and fall over. So I get a little stuntman pay out of that. It might not quite be $1,000, I don't think, for taking that big fall.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Bro, nobody works harder than stuntmen. Seriously. Those guys and girls take a friggin beating. They take a fucking beating. It's horrible. Episode five, maybe six, there's a fight with this guy and the big dude and one of the girls in the show getting this fight in this apartment. The stunt person who got thrown into this refrigerator, oh my god. It was like a tiny little pad in the refrigerator, and she just gets thrown into this thing. We try to keep every fight realistic, so we made a very deliberate decision at the beginning of *The Terminal List* not to do the John Wick style. Because you just don't want to do John Wick style, but not as good. You want to have everything authentic and realistic and then have this choreographed fight sequence that looks visually stunning, but is not really realistic for anybody who's ever been in a fight or watched UFC or anything like that. So we wanted to make sure that these things are primal, visceral, and just physical and brutal. But it's a smaller girl against this huge guy. So we didn't want to have that girl power thing where all of a sudden people roll their eyes and say, "One punch from this guy and she's done." So she shoots him like three times before the fight as he's rushing in on her. So okay, we're going to even this out. And still some people got upset about it online. They're like, "How could she best this guy in a fight? He's huge." And well, because she shot him three times, and then a fourth time in the middle of the fight, and she takes a beating. But the stunt lady who did this was amazing, and she took a beating too, especially when she got thrown into that fridge.
--:-- Jack Carr: God, especially stunt women.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, yeah. That's even harder. That was... And it's hard to watch because you're talking to them and then they go on set and do their thing. And you're like, oh, but you feel like you know them now. So you feel like you just know this person that's now getting beat up and you're watching from that video village. And you're like, oh, just cringing seeing this stuff. But it's good. It came out fantastic. That's why guys like Tom Cruise are so nuts. So crazy. Because he does his own stunts. He's worth a billion dollars and he jumps off roofs. He jumps from rooftop to rooftop. And breaks his fucking ankle. Did you ever see that?
--:-- Jack Carr: Oh, yeah. Sure. Shatters his ankle and then keeps running.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, keeps running from *Fallout*. You see the ankle shatter. You see the ankle hit the side, and you can see it give in. You see the ankle give in. He goes, "That ankle's fucked." And then he lands on it and just fucking hobbles off running.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yep, and save the scene. I actually watched it on the plane back because we did a... my flight was last second, so I was in economy between two people. And so when I do that, I can't work. So on like a 10-hour flight, I decided to watch the movie. So I watched *Fallout* again just because I wanted to see if I could tell what was filmed after and what was filmed before that sequence. And it's hard to tell. It's really hard to tell how much they filmed after he shatters his ankle and limps off, because you see him kind of limp off. But then he's running again.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah. You're like, what?
--:-- Jack Carr: I know. So, yeah, that's amazing that he does all that stuff. He probably just got a cortisone shot, taped it up.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Taped it up. And just dealt with the pain. Let's go. I don't get it. He did that one thing where he lit a parachute on fire and then had to pull a second parachute. In the last one. And it turns out that they did that scene like four or five times. Or the jumping off the cliff with the motorcycle. Yeah, what the fuck, dude? All day they did that. Maybe multiple days. I don't know.
--:-- Jack Carr: Oh, my God. That's incredible. That's so insane.
--:-- Joe Rogan: What kind of insurance do they have on those movies? I don't think... I think he does it probably himself. He probably insures it himself. I don't think anybody would actually insure that. I might be wrong. It's just a guess. What a nut.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. Maybe Scientology works. You know what I'm saying? I don't know.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I mean, what a fucking nut. No one's like that guy.
--:-- Jack Carr: No. I mean, there's no one that is that successful that takes those kind of risks. And all the other actors say the same thing. They like, "No, that's what the stunt people do." He's one of one. He gets in motorcycle races. He does those scenes. He does car chase scenes. It's pretty cool. I mean, it does add a level of authenticity and you go to it for that. So you can see Tom Cruise doing his own stunts. That's a part of the thing.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Fly a helicopter. Yeah. Fly the helicopter in that one, two, three of them ago. That was killer too. Fucking crazy. Jumping out with... Was it Henry Cavill and him jump out the back of the plane and fall out? But yeah, he's jumping out of those planes. Legitimately. Good for him. There he goes. He's out of his fucking mind. Separated his finger joints or something in this one. Of course he did. Oh, man. It's fantastic. Dude, do you know how hard it is to hang? Just to hang. I do it every day. I do a minute and 30 seconds every day. I've decided to try this to see what it does for my back because it decompresses your back. And I've heard that if you just do it every day, it's like a life changer. So I'm like, okay. So I'm like 10 days in now. 10 days of every day, minute 30, I hang. At that minute and 20, I got to check the phone. I'm like, fuck.
--:-- Jack Carr: Oh, yeah. I was doing the same. So after I was here last time, we took a picture together and I saw it and I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, I look horrible. I'm so out of shape." And it wasn't the height of my out-of-shapeness because I think we did that in June. By late August, or no, late July, that was about six years of not doing anything. We talked about saunas, we talked about all of this. And I'm like, "I've got to do something." Just writing. It's been so many projects. And I put myself at the bottom of my priority list and focus on family and writing and then the screenwriting and all the other projects that are out there. And it's amazing. I feel very fortunate for that. But I did get way out of shape, the worst shape of my life. And it showed in that photo that we took. I'm like, "Oh, look at Joe. He looks in such great shape." I'm like, "So August 1st or something. I'm like, all right, I'm in." And I started doing the hang, of course. And then I have this outside workout area that's like *Rocky IV* style. And so it's right there in the mountains. And so I'm just all in, getting after it. I'm doing the sauna. We rented a place in town that had a sauna to get our kids closer to school for a year because we're kind of remote. We're kind of up there and remote. And so we wanted our son to have the experience of riding his bike to school and all that stuff. So we rented a house, but it had an amazing sauna in it. So I was doing that exact—what, 17 minutes and 30 seconds, whatever you're supposed to do. Whatever I heard someone on this podcast tell me I was supposed to do, whatever you told me to do, I was doing that. And I was going outside getting like 10 minutes of sun. 10 minutes of sun there, doing the workouts, doing the cardio stuff, doing all of it. And I got in great shape. It's probably one of the best shapes of my life. Really. I was feeling so good. I felt like I could just throw people through walls. I was feeling so great. But I was doing everything. I was doing the sun. I was eating right. I was not eating the bread. So I did everything. And then I got to January 1st and I'm out there in the snow. I dug a path out to my thing in the gym, and I'm working out in my outside gym, doing the hangs, all that in the snow. And then I was like, "Oh, I think I had a deadline December 1st, a month ago, for this book. I've got to start writing." So all stop. All stop. And I haven't done anything since. It's only writing, only screenwriting, everything else. I'm trying to find that balance. I need to find that balance. I'm not quite there yet.
--:-- Joe Rogan: How many hours do you write a day?
--:-- Jack Carr: Well, as I get closer to the deadlines, I should say, it becomes all-consuming. And it's especially for something like this, when I'm in 1968. I mean, I really felt like I had to transport myself back to that time to write this thing. And so that was all. As soon as I woke up, bam, I'm in, and it is all day long until you go to sleep. And until I go to sleep, until super late. And then I'm up, because the kids still get up at the same time. And so I'm up, so I'm maybe an hour asleep, two hours asleep, whatever. And then I'm up out of the cannon and it's going. So it's not healthy, not healthy. So I'm going to get on a better schedule here. Our son's going to a boarding school now. Our daughter's in college. We have our middle child with severe special needs. So he's still at home with us. He'll be with us forever. And he's a sweet, sweet little guy. But that, I think, will give me a little more time to maybe find some balance with the health and the writing. Because I need to do that at some point. But typically, a lot of writers aren't very—especially the older ones from back in the day—they're not the healthiest of individuals.
--:-- Joe Rogan: The opposite.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I mean, we've talked about it a bunch of times on this podcast, but my favorite Stephen King books were all when he was doing Coke. He doesn't even remember writing a couple of them, right?
--:-- Jack Carr: No. If I was his friend, I'd get him to do Coke again. I tell my publisher that. I'm like, "I feel like I need to do some of that just to get this done. I need to take a turn here."
--:-- Joe Rogan: A lot of guys use Adderall. A lot of writers use Adderall. A lot of journalists use Adderall as well. And I think also that makes them like a little more impulsive. Their work gets a little aggressive.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, interesting.
--:-- Joe Rogan: You kind of see, especially journalists when they get real shitty, like, "Oh, he's probably on Adderall."
--:-- Jack Carr: Oh, interesting.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I think it contributes to the culture of journalism in the modern era. This sort of really shitty attack journalism that's become very prevalent. I don't think it's a small factor. I think Adderall consumption plays a factor in that.
--:-- Jack Carr: I'm sure it does. It changes something. And social media, of course, it changes something. Yes, nicotine does it. Nicotine has been very helpful for authors. Nicotine is great.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, yeah. I understand. Do you use cigars or do you do like pouches? What do you do?
--:-- Jack Carr: Don't do anything.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Nothing? No nicotine?
--:-- Jack Carr: Nope. Coffee and water, red wine, whiskey.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Red wine, whiskey, inspiration.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, but not too much. A little bit every now and again.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah. Nothing too crazy. Just to say fuck it.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. I feel like I should be doing something like that, but not too much. I built a library and one side of it was a bar, and I never get to touch anything because at book signings, people bring me a lot of whiskey. So I have it in my bags or I mail it from the road or whatever. So I have this whole wall of whiskey and other stuff too. But I never get to partake in it because I'm always writing. I'm always like, "I could pour something, but no, this is my time. It's quiet. I'm not being interrupted. Go, go, go." And it's just all on. So I haven't used any performance enhancing supplements. I need to do some like Alpha Brain or something probably.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That helps. Something like that. Alpha Brain is great. There's an Alpha Brain Black Label that's a new one that's a stronger version of Alpha Brain. I think we have some. I'll give you some when we leave. We also have Alpha Brain gummies. Do we have any on the table? No. Nice. I probably should. I eat those things like candy. But there's a bunch of really good nootropics that you should look into. Another one is NeuroGum. We have some of that stuff. I like that because it tastes good. It's gum, and it gives you a little nootropic boost. But I understand why authors do that stuff. Creatine is another great one. And creatine is really great for people with sleep deprivation.
--:-- Jack Carr: Oh, really?
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yes. You want a lot though. Like people are taking five grams a day. You really want like 20 grams a day. And particularly when people are dealing with sleep deprivation. It also, for some reason, has pretty great benefits, more so even for women, and sleep deprivation. There's been a bunch of different studies, but in terms of cognitive performance after sleep deprivation and reaction time after sleep deprivation, both of those things fall off. And there's a noticeable rise in improvement with creatine.
--:-- Jack Carr: I was taking one scoop, whatever it says on the bottle. I was taking one scoop, whatever that is. I probably bet it's five grams.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I do four of those scoops.
--:-- Jack Carr: Oh, really? Okay. Well, when I get back after this and see myself in our photo today, I will get back to it. I'll use four scoops.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Well, it definitely makes your muscles a little stronger and larger, but the reason I'm doing it is not just for that. It's for the brain. It's really good for the brain.
--:-- Jack Carr: Well, I was getting sleep during that time too, which is why I didn't have a book on time. One of the reasons. One, I was going back to 1968. It took a lot longer than I thought for this research. And then two, I was getting in shape at the same time. Were you listening to like 1968 music back then? And how were you doing it? I did music. I did a playlist for it, put it on Spotify. So I was doing that. I was watching the Vietnam documentaries. I was reading everything I could possibly find on Vietnam from the day. These old Army Special Forces manuals that they had before the guys would go over there that talked about the Montagnard tribes they were going to be working with. For those that are watching or listening, it's like *Apocalypse Now*, like the Montagnards, like tribes and all that stuff. So I was doing that. And then I was reading the more modern stuff too. I was reading things from the 70s, 80s. I got *National Geographic* magazines from the 60s. I think there's one from the late 50s even. So I was doing everything I possibly could to transport myself back. Listen to some history podcasts about JFK, about Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King, things that were happening here about the election, Nixon's elections, everything that was happening in 1968. I was just trying to immerse myself in that world. So that when I sat down to this, I didn't have to do a huge shift. It was already there. I was building on this foundation, whatever foundation I already had, as I sat down in front of the computer to write. Rather than watching something here contemporary, getting all upset about something that X is feeding me to keep me enraged, and then trying to jump back to 1968. Instead, I just transported myself back there for, it felt like, months at a time.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That's probably healthier anyway.
--:-- Jack Carr: I think it's much healthier.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I think so. I think it was a much healthier way to live in general.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, just live in the past, folks. That's what I'm trying to do. Today's too fucking confusing.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It is. Just go live in the past. I mean, I'd love to go back. I know I can't, though. But I still try to go back to my vehicles through movies, through things like that.
--:-- Jack Carr: I try to get to modern vehicles. How'd you turn them back in? I know you were telling me you got a Grenadier.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I did get a Grenadier, yeah. And I was so excited to get it. I think I was the first person in Utah to get one. They told me I was anyway. And I got this thing. I was so excited. And this is not a hit on Ineos Grenadiers, this is a hit on me not being able to adapt to the current times. It's a great vehicle. It was a great vehicle. It was fast. They let me borrow one for a few months. It's a great, if you're looking for an off-road vehicle that's like fully outfitted from the factory, you could do no better. It was awesome. I mean, I did, of course, I put every possible thing you could put on there.
--:-- Joe Rogan: So I like, I don't have time. I like, put everything on that for me. Just do the whole thing. And so they did. And it showed up. I was so excited for it. And then it started beeping at me.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That's my complaint. It beeps when you go one mile an hour, just a few miles an hour over the speed limit.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yes. I don't like that. I don't like where the speedometer is in the screen.
--:-- Joe Rogan: So there's no dashboard in front of you. There's no speedometer, tach. It's not in front of you. You just see numbers to the right. So you have to look over to the right to see how fast you're going. Which is why they justify the beep. It makes you look over to let you know, like, "Oh, look, you're going..." See the beep. "Oh, let me look." I don't want to look to the right at a screen ever if I don't have to. I want to look at it only if I'm following directions, and that's it. I know I want my fucking speedometer right in front of me. I know it's fast though. You hammer that thing.
--:-- Jack Carr: It was fast. I mean, you have some faster cars. It's capable. It's really capable off-road. If you drive that thing, it's fucking built like a tank.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It is like a tank. If you look at, like the idea was that they copied a Land Rover Defender, which they definitely did. But if you look at a Land Rover Defender, shut the doors on those things. They feel like shit. It feels like it's made of a Pepsi can. It's amazing. They're aluminum. Those are like agriculture vehicles. Those are not vehicles for like rugged travel. That's a G-Wagon. A G-Wagon is like a... that was designed for military applications. It's fucking stamped steel. I don't know if it's stamped steel. Whatever. They're steel, heavy fucking doors. When you shut those doors, like, and that's how the Grenadier is. Grenadier is like, heavy. It's like, thick. It's like a very durable vehicle. I feel like a lot of Aussies love them because you can kind of just get right from the factory. And a lot of those guys like to go off-road. And you can get your factory setting in the back where it's got all the electrical and everything. So you could set up a stove. You can set up a little refrigerator back there. It's all plugged in, ready to go. I love all that stuff. And it's, what do they say? It was like a Defender 110 and a G-Wagon had a baby for the Grenadier. I would say that's what it is.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, that's kind of true.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It's like the sides where you can put all the jerry cans and everything. It's all set up to mount stuff on it. I got it all set up. I was so excited. Pretty dope. And then I called them. I was like, "Hey, can I get rid of this click?" And they said, "Yeah." And they walked me through the thing. And I, whatever. This is why I don't want to have an iPad. I just want a car. I don't want to drive a computer. Right. And so I'm in there, I turn it off, and I'm like, "Oh, thank you so much." I'm driving, I'm like, "Oh, it's not doing the clicking anymore." I stop. I get out. I go in and do something. I get back in the car. Immediately, it's back on again. Click, click, click, click, click. I like, "Stop. I like, we're getting rid of this." I told my wife, "I like, let's get rid of this thing." But it is awesome.
--:-- Jack Carr: Well, you're an old Land Cruiser guy.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, yeah. The problem is those cars have a charm.
--:-- Jack Carr: There's a charm to those old Land Cruisers, especially the one that you have, the 60 series.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, yeah. You drive one of those things, man, it's like that feels like you're involved in every part of the driving. It is. I love that. You feel the steering. My time machine.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, yeah. I love it.
--:-- Joe Rogan: And you have a V8 in it, too. So you've got modern power, LS V8.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yep, LS3's in there, so that's nice. But that has thick doors, too. Much thicker than the 80s.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, and I do love my 80s. I don't know about much thicker, but thicker.
--:-- Jack Carr: I like the 80s series. I have two 80s series now, both stock, 96. And I love those because they're just modern enough, but they need someone to do a little work on them. They make some strange noises, but they work. But my son, I can pick him up in school in it, and he's like, "Ah, Dad," because it's still making this crazy... it's almost like it's going over the speed limit thing, but it's constant.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Some of them are fucking hundreds of thousands of miles.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, these have over 100, both of them. So I love that. And I have a 78 FJ40 that I love. So that's pretty... I love that one. And it's all completely restored. So it's all original for the most part.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That's also original?
--:-- Joe Rogan: Fun getting on the highway with that thing, isn't it?
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, you go about 40 miles an hour, tops. Tops. I mean, you're in that slow lane.
--:-- Joe Rogan: So slow. It's so slow. But it's cool for zipping around town. I love that. Did you get Icon to make you one of those?
--:-- Joe Rogan: I know. It's on the list. It's on the list. Or Corsetti. Get them to make you one of them beasts that they make. Because they make them with the giant V8s in them.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. They do some serious work.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That's fun.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. So I think I'm a Land Cruiser guy. And I tested out the Ineos. Didn't work out for me. But that's not to say that they won't work out for someone else. They're awesome vehicles. And if you're a modern type person, get one for sure. If you're into that style of like Defender looking car, but you don't want all the bullshit that comes with owning a Defender, either get a refurbished one. Like East Coast Defenders does a great job. They'll put a big engine in it and do it all right, but yeah, there's a bunch of them now that do that. The Grenadier is a great solution. I think they're gonna come out with a new one that has more horsepower and they'll probably improve some things.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, I would like them just give me a fucking dashboard.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That's not so hard. I mean they're doing everything else old-school. You have all these buttons and everything is all fucking old-school looking like a jet fighter pilot.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. Well, it looks great for inch.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, I know. Give me a fucking speedometer, just a regular speedometer and tach. Put it right in front of me. Thank you. That's it. And also make the lights so that the auxiliary lights will turn on when it's not in the off-road mode. I don't know if you tried that, but they're the auxiliary lights. Except for the light bar on the top, but the other ones in the front, you have to be in off-road mode for some legal reason. So you have to, I mean, sure, someone can bypass it somehow. But when I come up to our house, there's no lights and it's a long drive up there into the mountains. And I just want to hit the switch and have just daylight in front of me. And that was not possible with that. I got my Land Cruiser set up, or if I was in a dark field, you would think a UFO landed.
--:-- Joe Rogan: And yours is a 100 series, right?
--:-- Jack Carr: No, I have an 80.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Here's the 80.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, Icon built me that one. It was TLC at the time. But they put bars all around it. That thing's sick. And bars in the back. So you could park and light up the perimeter.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, that's what I want. I want daylight.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It's awesome.
--:-- Jack Carr: I want daylight. And then you put a tent on the roof, and you're out there in nature. I love it. I love it. I did drive, and I drove a G-Wagon yesterday. So we landed, went right to Staccato. And so they had a portion of G-Wagon right there. And I was like, oh, man, I think my wife's telling me I need to get something more modern that's going to be reliable. We're not going to just break down all the time. And so I'm like, they said, well, drive this thing. And so I got in it. It was like in 2016. So it was before some changes, I guess, were made. And I think it was nice.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah. So 2016 would have two live axles. I think they got independent front suspension later.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. I think that was like the 2022 or something like that. They started doing that. But I still can't do it. It's too LA, too Kardashian.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, it's very Kardashian. But the reality of it is it's a military vehicle. The thing about G-wagons, though, is people do take them and then they build them out for off-road. They don't do it with like the AMG turbo fucking thing. But the regular one is a V8 anyway. It's got plenty of power. I like the old ones.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. But you can get one of those old ones. And people have done amazing builds where they put like large tires on them. They raise it up a little bit. and they put like strong steel bumpers and like rock sliders on the side. And, you know, it's a beast of a truck. I'll probably need something new at some point, something newer at some point.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, because the platform is amazing. I mean, the platform is really designed for military application.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, the new Land Cruisers are not quite there yet. I like the old stuff, you know, like the newer ones. I mean, they're probably great. The new new one is like really more modest.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, it is.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, they dropped the price on them. It's not like what they were getting to, which is basically like...
--:-- Joe Rogan: Trying to compete with Range Rover.
--:-- Jack Carr: Well they were also fucking themselves because they have Lexus.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, yeah. And Lexus is like the best version of that.
--:-- Jack Carr: Right. Is it the 550? What the new one that they have?
--:-- Joe Rogan: I think the new one a 600. I think it called. Well they have the smaller one which is more like Land Cruiser size like 80 series size, and they have the larger one.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I had three of the larger ones, this 570s. I had three of those.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, those are sweet.
--:-- Joe Rogan: They never break. They were like my favorite family car to drive around in. It's awesome four-wheel drive. They're great in snow and anything else, and they fucking always work.
--:-- Jack Carr: They always work.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, hard to beat that.
--:-- [Ad break for The Farmer's Dog]
--:-- [Ad break for Blinds.com]
--:-- Joe Rogan: It's so good. I know they're so reliable. I know the guys got over to Africa to start filming this thing in... we got there in February or March anyway. We went over there and the advanced crew went over first to get everything set up and then Chris and I came over a little bit later when everything was all set up. But the guys were texting back after they were doing all the advanced work for the different places we're gonna go shoot and they're like, "Now we understand your obsession with the Land Cruiser."
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, they're all driving Land Cruisers in Africa.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, yeah.
--:-- Jack Carr: Once you get over to any rough place and you realize, like, oh, you want a car that 100% is going to work for you.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, yeah.
--:-- Jack Carr: There's a reason why they became so popular. It's not a mystery.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, yeah. Same thing. It's like the Seiko. Is that a Seiko?
--:-- Jack Carr: It's like they said, that's the Toyota of watches.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Nice. That's the Willard.
--:-- Jack Carr: I love it.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That's the one that Captain Willard wore in Apocalypse Now.
--:-- Jack Carr: Nice. Absolutely. Which I think came out... I do, too. I have an original. I have a 1971, I think it is.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, nice.
--:-- Jack Carr: 70 or 71.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. I collected all the SOG Seikos because this is McPhee SOG. So I collected all those. I think there's four of them that they've seen pictures of McPhee SOG guys wearing going into Laos, Cambodia, North Vietnam, which is what the book is focused on. So not only did I try to transport myself back by listening to all these things, but I had the watch right there. Like this is 1968 Rolex.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, nice.
--:-- Jack Carr: So I got that thing, the Submariner. So I surrounded myself with things that are like totems from the book. So this is what Tom Reese and I had a cool way that he wins this.
--:-- Joe Rogan: How did you get it at 68? Where did you find that? Did you get it online?
--:-- Jack Carr: A buddy of mine who's a Rolex dealer out in PA found it for me.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Wow. That's fucking cool.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. So I like the older stuff now I'm finding.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Crazy, it looks exactly the same.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, pretty much. I mean, there's a little bit of the crystals different and stuff like that, but the aluminum's different, that sort of thing.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Well, they used to be a utility watch.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That used to be a tool watch, which is crazy because you think of them today as being luxury.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. But the reason why they were built so well was just for you to use them diving.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yep. They were actually a watch that people would dive with.
--:-- Jack Carr: Exactly. And I'll see you wear something like this or like that. Then people like watch people know. They see it and be like oh okay. It's not like some guy that went out and bought an expensive watch. They're like okay, if someone put a lot of thought into this, like you were in the Willard and me having those McAfee socks and this one from 1968, it tells you put a little more thought into this sort of thing than just what an expensive watch or something along those lines.
--:-- Joe Rogan: But yeah, I mean, it tells a story.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, it's pretty dope. It's pretty thin, too.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, it's a little thinner than I thought when it came. And the band's a little different. It kind of makes some noise there. But I love this. And so it's these and the Tudors that guys were wearing back in Vietnam. The SEALs in particular, the Tudor Submariner.
--:-- Jack Carr: So I got one of those recently. I've been wanting to get one for years because when I got to the SEAL teams, there was a rumor, so I never saw it with my own eyes, but it's secondhand information, is that in supply, they were destroying the Tudors with hammers. And I can't because now we're getting issued Seikos. And so they issued these to the guys that actually jumped in to get the Apollo spacecraft. SEALs jumped in after those things, UDT SEALs, to get those guys out of the water. And these people in supply, I think in the 90s, were destroying the Tudors for some reason, probably because they were told to, so guys wouldn't get them and sell them or something like that. I don't know. But I did track one down recently through Watches of Espionage.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, wow.
--:-- Jack Carr: So he found me a new Tudor, or an old Tudor, but I got that. And then we did a little documentary with some old guys from the 70s and the 60s that were SEALs in Vietnam, and they were pulled out of Vietnam. They were in Vietnam one day, and then the next day they were off in the Pacific on an aircraft carrier waiting to recover the Apollo astronauts.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, pretty cool. We did a documentary on it for Tudor. And it was pretty cool to talk to those guys. I mean, just amazing. Because now they're taking lives in Vietnam, and now they're just thrown into these helicopters to jump into the ocean to save lives. It's kind of a cool juxtaposition.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, for sure. It is interesting that their equipment became luxury.
--:-- Jack Carr: Well, you can go back. I love these old ads, Rolex ads from, it must be the 60s, I think 60s, 70s, 80s. I mean, there's some from the early 80s. where they have a guy with a rhino, and it's like the editor of Guns and Ammo magazine, with his dead rhino, wears a Rolex. And they had at least two of those types of ads back then. I don't like to acknowledge that today, I don't think, the Rolex people.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, don't kill rhinos.
--:-- Jack Carr: But that was like in the early 80s. They were still marketing towards that.
--:-- Jack Carr: They were still rugged.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Well, think about, didn't James Bond always have one of those?
--:-- Jack Carr: There we go.
--:-- Joe Rogan: "If you were looking for lost empires here tomorrow, you'd wear a Rolex." There's one.
--:-- Jack Carr: Wow. Isn't that crazy?
--:-- Joe Rogan: But you gotta find the one with the Rhino.
--:-- Jack Carr: Well, there's a little fucking dependable. Frederick Forsythe, the author, actually had one. They used to have a relationship with him in the 70s and 80s. And they're like, "Here's Frederick Forsythe who wrote Day of the Jackal, wearing his jackal coat in front of this jaguar." And you'd never see that today.
--:-- Joe Rogan: But there it is.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, there you go. "If taming oil well fires were your job, you'd wear a Rolex."
--:-- Joe Rogan: Isn't that crazy? What?
--:-- Joe Rogan: Let's see if we can find the hunting one, a Rolex hunting or something. But they're just-
--:-- Jack Carr: Look at that racing here. It's for anybody that's doing anything difficult.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, yeah. It's kind of crazy. And now it's tennis and it's golf.
--:-- Jack Carr: Well, now it's just like looking fancy at a restaurant or whatever you're doing.
--:-- Joe Rogan: There we go. There's Connery right there, the Thunderball action.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, yeah. Love it.
--:-- Jack Carr: Fleming had one. He doesn't say which specific model it is in the books. Of course, Omega sponsored the movie starting with Bronson, I think. But in the books, it's a Rolex. He doesn't say what specific model, but he wore it, I think, with Fleming wore an Explorer, I think.
--:-- Joe Rogan: There it is.
--:-- Jack Carr: Oh, there you go. "If you hunted big game over the world, Cape Buffalo." There's Cape Buffalo right there. "Wear a Rolex."
--:-- Joe Rogan: Wow. Pretty cool.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah. They don't do that today. Just weird that that became, it went from being like this manly, super durable thing through, like when did people really start getting into watches and collecting them? And when did it become like a fetish?
--:-- Jack Carr: Must be the 80s.
--:-- Jack Carr: Must be the 80s, I would guess. I mean, I think it's always been a thing because you can go back and find amazing Patek Philippes and stuff like that and go back and find the Omegas, the old Rolexes, and it's a thing. But now it's kind of nuts.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, now it's gotten a little crazy, which is why I like the vintage stuff because it fits a little more, just like the cars. It's my time machine. Now when people have those Richard Mille watches and you hear they're half a million dollars, what are you talking about? Why are you buying that? What's going on here that I'm missing?
--:-- Jack Carr: That's an amazing story. It's not like that has a huge history to it. It's fairly recent for those watches. Do you know what the rumor is? The rumor is that one of the first watches that he was supposed to sell was supposed to be $15,000, but someone put an extra zero on it.
--:-- Joe Rogan: No way. Really?
--:-- Jack Carr: This is what someone told me.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Hey, let's go with it. It's a good story.
--:-- Jack Carr: It might not be true. And then people bought it. It's like, hey, hey, hey. Let's try 300.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Sometimes that's how it works. I mean, people love the watches. It's a beautiful, if you're into that style of watch. I like simple. That's what I like. This is why I like the Seiko. Nobody gives a shit about it. It's not impressing anybody.
--:-- Jack Carr: Well, if you know.
--:-- Joe Rogan: If you know.
--:-- Jack Carr: But it's a really well-made watch. It never fucks up. I think it's got a 52-hour power reserve.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, yeah. I love that stuff. We were very intentional with all the gear in the TV shows.
--:-- Jack Carr: I know you are.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, and the books as well.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, and the books as well. So it tells a story. You see somebody with that, that tells me something about you. You see something with the Richard Mille, whatever you say. Richard Mille, I think it is. It probably is Richard Mille, but it's like, they ain't going to sell. When you add another zero, then it goes to Joe Dirt, you know?
--:-- Jack Carr: Exactly. So it changes things a little bit. But it tells me a story, just like the characters in the books. But the watches in particular are important, one because it's important to me as a watch guy my whole life for some reason. I just have this connection with time and the value of time, so I've always been a watch guy my whole life. And so putting these watches on characters that tell you something about that character. Like in Dark Wolf, they have to get rid of their G-Shocks and go get something that would make it look a little more European for when they transition from being these SEAL guys to being these CIA operatives. Get rid of the gators, get some sunglasses, get some expensive watches, that sort of thing. But I still wanted something that had a connection to the SEAL team. So I picked a Tudor for Taylor Kitsch's character, and I got that one. I got to keep that one. So that was pretty cool. And then put a Panerai on Rafe Hastings, Tom Hopper's character, to differentiate him a bit from Ben Edwards, the Taylor Kitsch character. And also, Tom's a big dude, so you need a big watch on that guy.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Right. He's huge.
--:-- Jack Carr: He is huge. I'm sure. Oh, my gosh. I think all the, like, my wife and her friends were so excited about Taylor being in the show, because Texas Forever, you know, and they were all coming up during that time frame where he's in front of that lights and all that stuff. And then Tom Hopper gets out of the pool without a shirt on, and they're like, "Oh, Tom Hopper."
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, my God.
--:-- Jack Carr: It is. And so I told Tom that probably if we do Savage Son as a movie, he's probably not going to have his shirt on much in there.
--:-- Joe Rogan: So got to expand the audience.
--:-- Jack Carr: Got to expand the audience. We got to sell streamers.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Exactly.
--:-- Jack Carr: Exactly. But he's such a good dude.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That's awesome. All those guys are great. It's awesome. What is it like having this thing that you sat down by yourself, this world that you created, and now you're not just selling books, but you're filming the visual representation of your work? It's got to be kind of surreal.
--:-- Jack Carr: It is surreal. Every time I walk onto set, I feel that way. I feel as grateful for the most part. I just feel so much gratitude towards everyone involved and, of course, the people who made it happen, most specifically Chris, because if Chris didn't want to do it, didn't want to option it, it probably wouldn't happen. It wouldn't have happened. That we wouldn't be on this journey together, and he's so invested in it. And you mentioned some other shows earlier and there's a difference between an actor who gets paid to do something, does it, and moves on to the next project, and somebody like Chris who is so invested in this. And I think the other actors see that. And Taylor, by nature, like American Primeval, any role Taylor takes on, he is just so invested in it. It's not just a paycheck. It is going to now become part of his experience.
--:-- Jack Carr: And he really looks at it through that kind of a lens. So to have guys like that involved that are so personally connected to the material and also to the community, like the veteran community at large, it means something to them. And so they put so much into it. So when I walk on set, it is surreal. And to know that everybody is, and people come up to me all the time on set and thank me for creating this universe, allowing them to be there. But not just that they can be there working on a set, it's that we have created, mostly through Chris, Antoine Fuqua, David DiGilio, all these guys at the top, David DiGilio is the showrunner, and to build this family. And people come up to me all the time and they say that they've been involved in hundreds of Hollywood productions and they've never felt this way on a set before. And that's because you're filming these things for seven, eight months. And that doesn't count all the work that goes into the scripts ahead of time and all the post-production. So just being on set. And so during that time, people are going to get married, get divorced, lose loved ones. Life is going to happen. And David DiGilio in particular is the showrunner. He makes sure that everyone is taken care of. And we're also bringing people along with us. So if they're in a department this season, they're going to move their way up in that department next season. So they really feel taken care of. And it's all genuine. And I think that helps everybody bring their A game. And everyone is so happy to be there on these sets. It's really cool. And people tell me how different it is. They want to make sure that I know that it's not like this on every Hollywood production.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That's cool. That's got to feel great.
--:-- Jack Carr: That's cool. It is.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Well, it all trickles down from the top.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. Comes down from the top for sure. And even at the wrap party, these guys hang out after. Like all the actors hang out afterward. The cast, the crew, everybody's hanging out after hours. They're not just turning into ghosts. They're hanging out, having a great time. Wrap party, like I've heard that a lot of the number one on the call sheets, maybe they'll make a quick appearance and leave or something like that. I mean, Chris is there. He's in it. He's having a great time. Everyone's thanking everybody. And such a great guy. He's a very normal guy. For a movie star, he's oddly normal.
--:-- Jack Carr: He's a normal guy just like us. We spend time with him, you know, outside of anything professional. I was with him in hunting camp.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, yeah. We elk hunted together.
--:-- Jack Carr: So it was like, he just hangs out with everybody. He was like so cool. So normal.
--:-- Jack Carr: You know, for a movie star, just be chilling. Such a great, great guy.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah. Speaking of Tom Cruise and all the stunts, the last thing that we filmed in Morocco was underwater sequences. So it was not filmed in a linear style. So it's from the first episode. So it's Chris falling off the boat and being underwater. And he's in this pool underwater, not a stunt double. We had some stunt double do some falls and stuff like that. Chris Romrell, who's awesome, looks like Chris, takes some crazy beatings. He's amazing. And he's a huge dude. You can just stand right here and do a backflip. It's insane. The guy's a huge dude. It's awesome. And such a nice guy, too. But Chris underwater, and you can have this underwater communication system. And they're like, "All right, ready, three, two, one, action." And he takes the thing from a regulator, and then it goes away, and then we're filming. And he was under there for like three plus minutes holding his breath doing this stuff.
--:-- Joe Rogan: And for anyone who's tried to hold their breath for three minutes, that's serious. Holding your breath for three minutes just sitting still is hard. But underwater.
--:-- Jack Carr: That's nuts.
--:-- Joe Rogan: And we were watching this thing. We're like, "Is he okay?" And now he's just showing off. At a certain point, we're like, "Cut." And he stays down there like, "What?" Like, he's just showing off at this point.
--:-- Jack Carr: Did he prep for that?
--:-- Joe Rogan: I think he's just a bit from wrestling and from all this other stuff, breath control stuff. He's such an athlete that I think it was just kind of natural. I don't think he was prepping for it. I think he just did it. But it looks so good. It looks crazy, all the stuff that he gave us down there. It's amazing. And that's how we finished up the show, is to finish that. All the casting crew around at night, all the lights, the underwater stuff. Chris getting yanked out of the water. And then that was the end, and we went right to the party from there.
--:-- Jack Carr: That's awesome.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, yeah. Then we got to talk about the future of the show. We stayed up pretty late. And me and Chris and the showrunner and Jared Shaw, who you met when we were hunting that time, who gave Chris the book, former SEAL buddy of mine. And so we all had to talk about the future of the show. So hopefully it's Savage Son next.
--:-- Jack Carr: And that's people's favorite, I think, of the books. That and Red Sky Morning, the last one. And mine is this one. Every one has been my favorite thus far.
--:-- Joe Rogan: This Vietnam book's your favorite book you've written?
--:-- Jack Carr: Yep, hands down. One, because how much I put into it, and one, I want to get better with everything. Every book, I think, has gotten better as I go along. And if I can say that truthfully to myself, then I feel like I'm doing my job and doing my service to the story, which in turn serves the reader, people who are trusting me with this time that they're never going to get back.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Well, it's like every other skill, right? The more time you invest in it and the more you hone it and the more attention-
--:-- Jack Carr: It should be getting better.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, it has to. It should be getting better over time.
--:-- Jack Carr: It has to. You have to get better.
--:-- Jack Carr: People start phoning it in, you can tell. No, they're not enthusiastic anymore.
--:-- Jack Carr: And this one, I mean, like, there's a lot of pressure from publishers also to get things in on time. Because now I sell, like, maybe at the beginning it didn't matter. But at this stage, it matters because of the number of books that are being sold. So they need to, and it's a business. And so they need to make their numbers. And so as a creative person, they are putting a lot of pressure to get it done. Just get it done. And I have to fend it off. I have to, like, behave. Whatever pressure is put on me from the outside, I've got to focus on this story and it's going to be done when it's done because it has to be the best that it can possibly be. But that's a lot of pressure coming in from the outside and you have to fend it off. But I can see, you know, how if you're... I can see it being very easy to just say, "OK, I got to 100,000 words. I got to wrap this thing up."
--:-- Jack Carr: And I'll never do that. My readers mean too much to me. The story means too much to me. This profession means too much for me to ever do something like that.
--:-- Joe Rogan: How many... what is the percentage of audiobooks versus hard copy?
--:-- Jack Carr: A lot more audio.
--:-- Jack Carr: A lot more audio.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Like how much more?
--:-- Jack Carr: I don't know because I don't look at the numbers. I'm not a business guy. I'm more of an entrepreneurial type of a mind. So just knowing that Simon & Schuster is incredibly happy across the board.
--:-- Joe Rogan: But they tell you?
--:-- Jack Carr: They do have numbers, yeah, and they share them, and I just see numbers. But I couldn't tell you exactly. But it's a lot more.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, it's a lot more.
--:-- Jack Carr: Interesting.
--:-- Joe Rogan: And I think that's Ray Porter. I mean, he's incredible.
--:-- Jack Carr: He's really good.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Fantastic. Such a good human being, too.
--:-- Jack Carr: We use his voice in Dark Wolf for those listening. They'll be able to recognize his voice in there. It's a skill to be able to do all those different voices and accents and then not have it jarring that a man is playing a woman.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, which is weird because he's got to play a woman's voice. That's a tough one for any guy.
--:-- Jack Carr: Fucking weird.
--:-- Joe Rogan: You know, it's because you have to kind of like, there's a suspension of disbelief.
--:-- Joe Rogan: You know, in the real world, "Hey, fuck off, that's not a chick." Right? You know, you get a phone call from a lady. "Right, so where are we gonna meet? Yeah, let's meet at the barbershop." Like, what? Yeah, call that a clue. What the fuck is going on?
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, call that a clue. You should probably listen to it, unless you're looking for it, I guess. His girl voice is oddly believable.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, I mean, I don't know anybody else who can do it better. That's a tough one. That's a tough position to put a person in. And the accent. It's like Rafe's accent. Oh, my gosh. I give him a tough one in this one, too. I have a guy who's actually based on a real person. In the book, he lives and in real life, he died in, I think, 1965. But it was a Finnish officer who got the, whatever the Finnish cross is, it's in the book, I forget exactly what it is, but then fought for the Germans and got like the German Mannheim cross or something. And then after World War Two, they tried to grab a bunch of people who had experience in essentially Eastern Europe to bring over to our military so that we would have experience if we went to war with the Soviets. And so they brought all these guys into the military. And so then he gets a Bronze Star in the United States military, Army Special Forces. His helicopter went down, I think it was 1965, but he was part of MACV-SOG. So I fictionalized his character in here. So I had to give those three—so I have to have Finnish, German, and English kind of a morph. And Ray Porter has to do that. And so he has to read that and come up with something like that, and he pulls it off. It's incredible.
--:-- Jack Carr: I was just texting him before I came in here actually. He's filming a play up in Oregon, *Waiting for Godot*, I think right now. So I'd love to see him on stage and just see him not just doing the voice but acting.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, I've never seen him in anything I don't think.
--:-- Jack Carr: He's Darkseid in that Justice League, but that's a bunch of—you can't really see him.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, so he's in that. He's in *Almost Famous*, a bunch of sitcoms in the 90s. Just an awesome dude. But yeah, audiobooks, and I think it's because of podcasts. I think people listen to a podcast, and it is a very natural way to then get whatever you're talking about on the podcast through the same medium. So over to audiobook. It's just a very natural transition to listen to the audiobook. And a lot of people are doing both, thank goodness. So they're getting the hardcover, and then they're listening on the car on the way home, and then they get inside, and they're reading a little bit before bed, get up to go to work in the morning, pick up again where they left off reading. So a lot of people are doing both.
--:-- Jack Carr: Well, you know Audible, the way it works with Kindle, there's an app where it'll pick up where you are. What is it exactly? Whisper Sync or something like that. So it picks up exactly where you left off reading, and it'll pick up with the audio on a Kindle though, and then the audiobook will know that you're reading at night.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Interesting.
--:-- Jack Carr: And so pick up where you left off the next day.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Interesting. But that's on a Kindle. I can't do the Kindle. I feel that I do so much work on a screen that I don't want to have something I read for enjoyment to be the same thing. So I want it to be—I want a physical book to go through. I'm just that kind of guy.
--:-- Jack Carr: The dope thing about a Kindle, though, is you can get 80 books on it, or probably 80,000. Instead of my luggage. I don't even know how many you can get on them, honestly. And then also the white paper screen, where it really does look like paper. Pretty fucking incredible.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, still for me, once again, like the watches, like the cars, I have a thing. It's a theme.
--:-- Jack Carr: Oh, listen, my wife's the same way. She only reads book books.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, I love that.
--:-- Jack Carr: She likes to feel the books.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I love that. A lot of people are like that. It's a thing that you have in your hands and you turning the pages is like the tactile feeling. And you know when you're halfway into the book, like, "Oh my God, things are getting crazy. I'm halfway in here. How's he going to wrap this up?" You can see it. Rather than, "I'm at 37%."
--:-- Jack Carr: Exactly. It's just a different type of deal.
--:-- Joe Rogan: But I picked up Charlie Sheen's book at the airport on the way here.
--:-- Jack Carr: Oh, did you?
--:-- Joe Rogan: So I'm reading it, about halfway through, because he's coming on my podcast and I want to talk to him and ask him about, you know, *Apocalypse Now*, *Platoon*, Navy SEALs, kind of like keep it in that kind of thing. But reading that book, oh my gosh, it's amazing. But I had to buy it. I couldn't just get it on the—I already had the PDF. They sent it to me, but I wanted to buy the book. I wanted to physically have it and make my notes in there and all that. So I'm doing that, but listening to him on this—
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--:-- [Discussion resumes]
--:-- Joe Rogan: ...podcast was so interesting. Oh, yeah. What a guy. This is what I told people. You can't be normal if you're on the set of *Apocalypse Now* when you're 10 years old, and then 10 years later, you're in *Platoon*. You're the lead in *Platoon* 10 years later. How do you expect that guy to be normal?
--:-- Joe Rogan: No one can handle that. It's not handleable.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. That level of stardom is—
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, it's not possible. Especially in the 80s, before phones and everything else, when they got after it.
--:-- Jack Carr: Oh, and the drugs.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah. I mean, he was involved in so much drugs from early on.
--:-- Joe Rogan: And back then, you could do drugs. You didn't die.
--:-- Jack Carr: You didn't die.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Well, actually, one of the ladies he talked about in the documentary that gave him a blowjob while he was smoking crack for the first time. I saw that. She died in an overdose. But you got to try hard. It's not like today, you get to accidentally do a snort of coke and then it's fentanyl laced and you're dead.
--:-- Jack Carr: Right. And that's 100,000 people in America every year. It's crazy.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah. But what he was doing was just going hog wild. And he's alive.
--:-- Jack Carr: And he's alive.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah. He looks good.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, he looks great.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Dude, he looks a lot better than he's looked in the past.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Like when he came in here, I'm like, "Dude, you look healthy."
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. I think he said he'd almost been sober for eight years, been sober for seven plus years.
--:-- Jack Carr: It's coming on eight years. I think he said December. I forget. But it was very impressive. And he's like a really nice guy.
--:-- Jack Carr: You know?
--:-- Joe Rogan: No, it seems like it.
--:-- Jack Carr: He was a fan of the books beforehand, so he likes all this stuff. Likes *Dark Wolf*, likes *Terminal List*, all that stuff.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That's cool. Yeah, so that'll be fun to talk to him. And also, I went to see *Navy SEALs* the day before it came out. There was a showing at midnight on Thursday or something like that before it came out on Friday, back when I was in high school, and I knew I was going to be a SEAL, so I was so excited. I'm like, "They cast Charlie Sheen, the guy from *Platoon*, in this?" I'm like, "Ah, perfect casting." And so I went and saw it then, so it'll be fun to talk to him about that stuff. And I do remember, I did meet him at a—is it Red Sox game? Is that the one that they want? Is that his team? I think so. But him and his dad were in a box next to us. So I was still in the SEAL teams and I was with some of the guys that were on the Bin Laden raid. And we were in one of the owner's boxes. And Charlie Sheen was next to us with his dad. And somehow they got to talking or whatever. And so we went over there. He came over to us. I can't remember. But he was fantastic. His dad was such a gentleman. That stands out to me. But Charlie Sheen was awesome, so personable, he was great. But his dad was so nice, and I stand like an old school type gentleman is what stood out about Martin Sheen. And then what also stands out is then we left there at the end of the game and there was a line of girls down—I'll tell him this when I see if he remembers. He might not remember. But it's because it probably happened almost every day for him. Just a line of girls down the hallway outside of the owner's box. Trying to meet him.
--:-- Jack Carr: They weren't there for me.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Well, what are you going to do?
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah. But they were there for Charlie. Poor Charlie. That was pretty cool. Must be rough.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah. But he had a crazy life. And then you guys came back in and had to deal with the Charlie Kirk assassination.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I thought you guys handled that in such a thoughtful way in real time. That's a tough position for both you guys to be in. I hadn't seen it yet, you know. I just heard, and then I really didn't want to see it. I said I wasn't gonna see it, but then someone texted it to me and I just couldn't help myself. I clicked on it. I'm like, "Oh..."
--:-- Jack Carr: I know. It's so sad. I was signing those books that day with my chief of staff. She was passing me the books and I'm signing and we're checking off the names for these pub boxes. And all of a sudden her phone goes off and I heard she screams. And I was like, "Whoa, what happened?" And her husband is in the security field. And she said, "Charlie Kirk's been shot in Utah." So I of course go to X and then see it. And then I didn't get to my kids in time because my daughter and our youngest son both follow him, think they know him essentially. And I didn't get to them in time before they saw it. So our youngest I was most concerned about seeing that, being away from home at boarding school. Called the school. One of the guys, there's like a trusted agent. He's like a guy's guy like us, and went over and tracked him down and he was doing fine. But it's different than seeing in the paper or having Walter Cronkite report that JFK was killed. That's different, I think. Challenger for us in school growing up. Like we saw it explode, but you're not seeing the people. You're not seeing it as viscerally from all these different angles from cell phones immediately. So graphic, just so heartbreaking. But you guys, I mean, you guys had to do it in real time, and I thought you guys were very thoughtful about how you dealt with it.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Thanks. It was weird. It always feels surreal when someone dies, but when someone gets assassinated like that, and then there was the weirdness of the reactions of people.
--:-- Jack Carr: Oh, my gosh.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That was the most disturbing aspect of it, where I was like, "What have we done?"
--:-- Joe Rogan: What have we done to people's minds with social media and with political discourse that you are thrilled that someone was murdered in front of his children on the internet for the world to see? And you are celebrating because you didn't like his ideas?
--:-- Joe Rogan: Like that is so crazy that we've gone that far.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. I mean, you could feel the evil. And as much as I tried not to look at all these reactions, it's being fed to me because of the algorithm and everything else. So there were two in particular, one guy, one lady, and they were like cackling like a witch's cackle, like out of some sort of fairy tale that's meant to scare kids. But in real life, celebrating the death of Charlie Kirk. And I mean, that was revolting, but you could feel the evil through the cackles. I've never felt like that before. I mean, very few times, I should say.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I think a lot of it is very performative. And I think a lot of people are doing it for clicks and likes. And they think that there's a lot of like-minded people that feel the way they feel. And then there was a wave of people that were like excited about losing someone who was a right-wing influencer. They were happy about it. It was real weird.
--:-- Joe Rogan: And continues to really kind of fuck with my head because I didn't think that that would be the case. I had hoped it would be very few people. I'd hoped. But it wasn't. It was a lot. It was a lot in real life, too. It wasn't just social media. You know, I've had multiple friends that encountered people celebrating in real life. One of my friends was at a cafe writing, and this lady came in, and she was on a Zoom call. And it was right after the assassination, and she gets on a Zoom call, and she's like, "Well, I don't know about you guys, but I am having a great day now." And they were like, "This is a great day. I'm having a great day too. I'm having a great day. The events of the day have made me very happy." And they were laughing and smiling and like clapping. Publicly, like in a cafe. And it was very obvious what they were talking about. That's so gross.
--:-- Jack Carr: That they feel comfortable enough to do that.
--:-- Jack Carr: That it's acceptable. That you want that attached to you for the rest of your life. And you don't take one second to say, "Ah, maybe even from a practical standpoint, maybe I should just sit this out. Even if I feel happy, maybe I should do some reevaluations." But instead they feel comfortable to jump on and say those things. I mean, it was ridiculous. And I felt that. I mean, I could feel the evil coming through the phone, which is a strange thing to say. And I've been in a Bagram room early on in the war in Afghanistan. I remember the—I forget, I don't know if it was a black site prison, but it was like a nasty prison. They had this smell, and you could feel this kind of overriding sense of—I don't know, you had to be there—but also like this little bit of a current of evil in there. And then same thing in Baghdad where they held Saddam. Being in there, I've been in both those places, and you kind of feel a little bit. But even more so, you feel it with Saddam's kids. They're like these little islands and palaces, and you know what they did there. They could pull girls off the street and that sort of thing. And you just feel dirty, or you feel evil. I mean, you sense it in some of those places. But I felt that same kind of thing coming through the phone. And then I felt it again. It's weird to feel it so many times. My wife and I were in Paris, like I said, right before I came out here. So it was Morocco, finishing the show for about a month, then to Paris. And it happened to be Fashion Week. And we weren't there for Fashion Week. It just happened to be Fashion Week, which is still going on now, I think. But we were in this—we wanted to go to one dinner where we could see some people, kind of do some people watching. And I could store some of it away for books. And that's what I'm always collecting, always collecting. And so we went to the place that the Kardashians stay, called like Kotis or something. Anyway, went to this hotel that's where a lot of the fashion people stay. And it was interesting. At first we're seeing some people just treat the wait staff horribly. So you're getting kind of taking some notes on that. And then this guy walks in with like two minions, and you don't see his face because he's got this like hood on, but there are these earrings that are attached to the outside and they're hanging down. And he's this like fairly obese person. And so you never saw his face. The way he walked in and then sat in front of us with these two guys on either side, they had their sunglasses on and they were like both dressed very similarly, and both side of them they just were looking at him like this. And it was so odd. But you felt this sense of evil. I hate—I don't like using that word too much—but you felt something odd. So much so that we paid the bill and left. It was odd. It was so odd. And a similar thing that I felt coming across the phone with those people that celebrate. I don't know. We're gonna go back to our hotel and look up, try to see who's at Fashion Week, who dresses this way, because it was very strange. Like these black robes, and it was just the weirdest thing. It was so odd.
--:-- Joe Rogan: With earrings?
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, but attached through the hoodie and kind of clipped to the outside or something and coming down from the outside of like this thin hoodie. It was very bizarre. Very bizarre. But you felt evil.
--:-- Jack Carr: I've never—I mean, very rarely do I feel that anyway. It's a very strange feeling. But I've learned to listen to those feelings. Listen to the gut. Listen to the sixth sense that's kept us alive as a species for so long.
--:-- Joe Rogan: If you went to Davos when they have those World Economic Forum conferences, I bet you'd smell brimstone.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I bet you would.
--:-- Jack Carr: I'd be looking for it, though. That might be different. You know, that might be different if you're actually looking for it. But I bet, like, whenever you can get a bunch of billionaires together that are trying to decide the fate of the world, I bet you feel evil. I don't know. I'm going to have to go to one of those at some point.
--:-- Jack Carr: Fuck that. I did go to Bohemian Grove. I don't think you're supposed to talk about it, but I didn't feel that there. Like, it was more like guys getting away for the weekend to drink.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I've heard a lot of people say that about Bohemian Grove recently.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. And I know people that have gone. Kid Rock told me, and a couple other guys told me, they went there like, "I want to see what the fuck it is."
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, so they went. I'm like, "But did you ever watch the Alex Jones video?" When Alex Jones and John Ronson snuck in, right? That's back when Alex Jones and John Ronson were united.
--:-- Jack Carr: Who is John Ronson?
--:-- Joe Rogan: John Ronson is the British journalist. He's the guy who wrote *So You've Been Publicly Shamed*. It's about the first mass cancellations through social media and this new public shaming thing that happens.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, yeah.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Very interesting guy. And so he snuck in with Alex Jones. I saw someone—I didn't see anything weird like that. But I know you're talking about the burning thing. I think that's what I think about, because I didn't see any of that stuff. But I'm thinking, maybe they don't do that anymore. I don't know.
--:-- Jack Carr: Maybe we ruined the party.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Maybe. But when I'm thinking about it, if I think about it logically, you know when you throw something into a fire? Like at BUDS, guys would burn their dungarees. Dungarees are like a regular Navy uniform. And if you make it through BUDS and don't get kicked out of the teams, you'll never have to wear that uniform again. And it was awful. It was bell-bottom jeans and a denim shirt tucked in that you had to starch, especially in boot camp, in a way that you hold it out flat. It's awful. And the little Dixie Cup hat. That's the uniform. Like the worst uniform in the history of uniforms. Nothing tough about that. But people would burn them, like never going back. And then 80% would quit, but they burn their uniform. So I think it may be something like that. You want to burn something. That's what I think it might be. But I don't know.
--:-- Joe Rogan: 80% will quit before they get through BUDS?
--:-- Joe Rogan: Along the way.
--:-- Jack Carr: Most in Hell Week. But at some point along the way. Typically 80%, give or take. We'll make it. But burning that thing is kind of like burning the boats, which is not a real thing.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Do they get through Hell Week and then they still quit?
--:-- Jack Carr: Some. Not many. Not many. Most people will be performance dropped after that for not being comfortable in the water for pool comp, when you're getting pounded off the bottom of the pool by instructors. And then you're having to go through the right procedures to get your air turned back on and continue to crawl. And then they come and hit you again and rip your mask off and hit you in the gut. So you expel your air, turn off your air, tie your—because it's the two hoses, super old school—tie them in a knot, and they back off to see that you're comfortable in the water and that you're going to go through the right procedures to get everything working again and continue on. So that's about 15 minutes of doing that. And some people just aren't comfortable in the water. And so they'll go.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Is it just a panic thing?
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. I mean, your air is cut off, and it's easy to get more air. I mean, you're only 10 feet or 15 feet, whatever it is, back to air. So it's very easy to get that air. But you have to go through the right procedures, just like you've been taught, and be very comfortable. And yeah, that's what the test is all about.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Do they punch you in the stomach?
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. So you lose some air. So it just makes you even more uncomfortable.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That makes a big difference, like who's punching you.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, instructor.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, and where they're hitting you.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, yeah. And it pounds you off the bottom. You kind of just go limp, just relax, just like in jiu-jitsu or something like that. Like, okay, relax. And then, okay, now I'm going to get into this. So I love that sort of thing. Because that was the only time in BUDS where it was like mano a mano against the instructor. The rest of the time you're just getting yelled at, being told you're worthless, pushups, sit-ups, run, swim. But now it's like, okay, you and me. I love that. Same thing with the life-saving. That's the other time you get to put your hands on the instructors. You have to go out and they'll act like a different type of person drowning. So they'll fight you or they're just dead weight or something like that. And they're different body types. And so you get to go, you swim out towards them and then you have to get them back, and they'll take you down to the bottom, hit you off the bottom. And so they're doing the work in that situation. And you just relax, hold on, just like you've got someone in like a rear naked choke type thing. And then they have to go up. They're expending their energy, keeping you down there. They're gonna have to go up and get the air. So just wait, go up to the top, grab a little bit of air, get closer to the side of the pool. Then they take you down again, type of a thing. And I love that, because that's the only time you can put your hands on an instructor.
--:-- Joe Rogan: But you have to put your hands on them like you're rescuing them.
--:-- Joe Rogan: You can't just choke them.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Because I'd be like, "This dude is fucking ruining it. I'm going to put him to sleep."
--:-- Jack Carr: No, but there's some similarities there. Just some similarities with body positions and all that sort of thing. Just being comfortable without air for a certain amount of time. But there's limitations on how you grab them. They teach you how to grab them and how to get towards the side of the pool type of thing.
--:-- Joe Rogan: You can't keep them down if you've got better breath than they do.
--:-- Joe Rogan: You can't hold on to them. No, I don't think so. If they start coming up, you're like, "Not today, bitch. Not today. Stay down, motherfucker." I mean, I guess somebody could, you know, but that doesn't sound right. Like if you're a world champion free diver, if you're one of those 10-minute dudes.
--:-- Jack Carr: You do have some people like that come through. I bet. You do have some really incredible athletes that come through. And a lot of them don't make it because they're being treated like Ferraris or Lamborghinis most of their life if they're really an elite athlete. And then all of a sudden they're being treated like a Chevy, you know, and they're just thrown through walls or whatever and it's like, "Eh, not for me."
--:-- Joe Rogan: Crazy pressure test that has to be done. I mean, there's no real job that's similar other than, you know, Rangers and other elite special forces teams where you have to get through this horrific thing to prove that you're the type of person that they want to train. We're not sure if we want to train you even. So we don't know if we're ever going to use you. And so we're going to try to break you.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. Got to prove that you want to be here and that you have the mental fortitude to be here and that you can work as a team. I mean, there's a few different things that they're looking for, but it's worked for a while. It's worked for a long time. It's a good test. But it was getting really weird during the Woke years where they were talking about lowering the standards.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Right. There is that.
--:-- Jack Carr: And then so the standard part, so even if they say that they're not lowering the standards, this is how they get around it, and this is military in general, that they give you more chances. So before, if you only got one or two chances, maybe three, something like that, to pass an evolution. Maybe the standard remains the same. But in order to get this person through, now you get four chances, five chances, six chances, seven chances, eight chances. So they say the standards have not changed. Well, okay, not really. But you gave them a lot more chances, which you didn't give other people before who were washed out of the program because they only got one chance or two chances or three.
--:-- Joe Rogan: What would it be that you would get more chances doing? Like that pool comp thing?
--:-- Jack Carr: I think you got two chances on the first day and two chances on the second day. And I passed the first day just because I happened to be comfortable in the water. But some guys made it through on that fourth one. Like, "Oh, made it, just made it." But they didn't get a fifth. They did not get a sixth.
--:-- Jack Carr: And now, maybe I don't know if this is true, but this is a way around the standards. Give somebody a fifth. Give them a sixth. Something like that. Or you failed the old course one time, you get some sort of a warning or something like that. And then you do it again. Second time, you're out or whatever it is. Well, now you can just as many times as it takes. "Oh, they passed it. They passed it once. Let's move them on."
--:-- Joe Rogan: Were they doing that to just expand the ranks? Or were they doing it to get a specific demographic?
--:-- Jack Carr: Well, I'm not saying that they did it. I'm saying that's how you would get around the standards. You'd be able to say that we haven't lowered the standards, sir, type of a thing when you're in front of Congress. And they don't know where to ask those kind of questions. "Well, did you give them more chances? Did you change anything?" Something like that. So they can get away with telling the truth-ish but not expanding on that. So that's just a way to do it.
--:-- Joe Rogan: What a bizarre sign of the times to make elite special forces units more easy to get into.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, it's a thing.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Strange.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Because there was a push to lower standards. There's a push to try to get women in it too, right? I don't know how much of a push it is. Have any women ever gone through it?
--:-- Joe Rogan: I don't know how far they've gone. I think there were a couple that tried it and haven't made it. I'm not sure because I'm so removed from it now. But I think, I don't know if there's a push for it, but it's open now. And the part of that, for me, it's, you know, I'll probably get canceled now. But, you know, or maybe we're past that. I don't know. But to me, it's not. And what they say now, what you have to say officially, I think, is that the standards are the same. It doesn't matter if you're male or female. Standards remain the same. Okay, fine. But when you get to an elite unit like that or any unit, and this might be a failing on my part. I fully admit that. I mean, I was raised when a woman enters a room, you stand up. You open the door for a lady type of a thing, like those things. You stand up for your chivalrous, your gentleman type of a thing. And now all of a sudden in a leadership position, I'm supposed to treat a female the exact same way that I treat a male going into combat. There's no way I could possibly ever do that. I'm going to be much more concerned about her than I am him. And once again, that might be a failing on my part. I fully accept that. But I'm glad I never had to deal with it in real life. But I see that being something that comes into play, especially if you're raised to protect as a protector, as a sentinel, as a guardian. and now all of a sudden you're supposed to treat said female who'd been raised to protect, treat them exactly the same way as a guy going into combat. That would be difficult for me. There certain physical realities I feel that we just have to address when people want to talk about equality I understand that when you talking about jobs that don require shooting people and stabbing people in hand combat okay Because as soon as you do that and you are physically far weaker and far slower and you're just, you're not a man. It's a different thing. I feel the same way about women. Like if you wanted to have a cross-gender combat sports, So if you want to have biological men fighting biological women, I don't care if they're the same weight. It's not fair. It's not smart for them to be doing that. That said, I feel like you should be able to do what you want to do in this life. And I don't want to limit anybody's choices in this life. But if you want the best people for the job, I can't see how they're going to be weaker people. It doesn't really make sense. And if you have a physical requirement for all the men, and that physical requirement involves a lot of heavy physical working out and labor, I don't know that a woman can pass that. I've seen what you guys had to go through to get through Bud's.
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--:-- Jack Carr: You have to be strong. There has to be a certain amount of physical strength that you have to be able to do that.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, for me it even comes, yeah, like I said, it comes down to that. And it's probably my failing, but maybe not. Maybe we're supposed to be, you know, supposed to be protectors.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, supposed to be protectors. All throughout human history that's been the case.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, and you're supposed to all of a sudden change because of a policy directive.
--:-- Jack Carr: But yeah, I mean, we're going back to it. I mean, it's ruffling a lot of feathers within the military right now, changing the Department of Defense to the Department of War, which is, and I'm not saying that they got this from me. I'm just saying that they, I've never heard anyone talk about it until I talked about it back in 2001. And I wrote some articles after the Afghanistan withdrawal and I went on Fox a bunch of times and talked about how we need to, precision in language reflects precision in thought. Department of Defense, defense has a sort of connotation to it, a definition to it. and the Department of War is different than a Department of Defense, just the language of it. And I said, it's time to change the Department of Defense back to the Department of War. And I used the Afghanistan withdrawal as that example and put that in two articles. I think they both went on town hall, I believe. But I talked about it, and I'd never heard anybody mention that before.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Is that what it used to be? It used to be the Department of War?
--:-- Jack Carr: It went from the Department of War up to the end of World War II, and then it changed, and then it was official in 1947 with the reorganization of the military and our intelligence apparatus. So 1947 onward became the Department of Defense.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Do you take any heat in your books? Because one of the things that you talk about, especially in the terminal list, is horrific government corruption.
--:-- Joe Rogan: And the willingness to put soldiers' lives as expendable in order to profit.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. I certainly talk about it in here. It was a great conversation. One of my favorite chapters is these two characters, Tom Reese and his buddy Quinn. So one special forces guy one seal and they having this conversation on China Beach and it was great to write those chapters and do all this research into China Beach and Da Nang and what kind of surfboards they were using how they were shaped like all this stuff just to bring you back to that time frame But that's what they're talking about. So this is about James Reese's dad.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, 1968, his dad.
--:-- Jack Carr: And people find out where the tomahawk came from, where the watch came from, where honey and the coffee came from. So all these little things are kind of woven in there as well. But exactly what you just talked about is a conversation in this book in 1968. And it's the same conversation that we're having today. But I wouldn't say I take heat over it. And I'm never going to worry in a chapter or a book about who I'm going to alienate by writing something.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Criminals?
--:-- Jack Carr: Exactly.
--:-- Joe Rogan: You're going to piss off the criminals?
--:-- Jack Carr: Exactly. Or the people in power. He's being honest about what we did.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Or just people in power in general or just a part of a readership maybe.
--:-- Jack Carr: I'm just going to focus on that story. I have to focus on that story. I'm not doing this. I'm not writing this for a reader. I'm writing this for the story. And that's the way I honor that reader. So it's all about that story. But the CIA has been very nice. We got to film the end of Dark Wolf at CIA headquarters. And I hadn't been back there since I was in the SEAL team. So I'm at CIA headquarters. I have a cameo in there that I lived through at the end of the show on episode seven. I'm the guard that takes the guy's ID as he's leaving the, and I have it one line. I think it's, I say something anyway. but it was very cool to be there in front of that memorial wall, that wall of stars, especially knowing some of those guys that are on there that are memorialized by those stars. So the CIA was very kind to let us use that lobby. They didn't ask us to change anything in the show, didn't put any restraints or restrictions on anything. They just let us use it, and that was very cool. Some guys came down that didn't need to come down that day, which was really cool. They wanted to talk to me about some stuff that I did in Iraq, and it was very, very cool to talk to them. Very cool to see the museum there, get a little tour of the CIA museum, all that stuff. So they've been very helpful. The military, not so much. The military does not let us use any aircraft carriers, submarines, helicopters, anything like that like they do for some other shows. And I think that's probably because I blew an admiral up in his office in the first episode, first series and then the book. So I don't think the military is that fast.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Is that really what it is, you think?
--:-- Jack Carr: I think it probably is because we were going to use, for the first show, we were going to use Camp Pendleton. And the Marines were all on board. And then their Department of the Navy. So then the Navy found out about it and quashed it so we did not get to use
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, so it's and like in Jack Ryan and stuff I think they use actual military helicopters and maybe a amphib ship or something like that So they get some support from the they didn blow anybody up
--:-- Jack Carr: be a SEAL.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, yeah. Fucking badass.
--:-- Joe Rogan: And so a lot of guys would probably join because of that series, and they're like, no, you bad guy.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It's a bad guy, though.
--:-- Jack Carr: Exactly.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It's not you.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, yeah.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Justice.
--:-- Jack Carr: What are you guys going to let all the bad guys off the hook?
--:-- Joe Rogan: Exactly.
--:-- Jack Carr: Come on.
--:-- Joe Rogan: You got a murderous bad guy that happens to be an admiral? You don't want to see him get whacked?
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. It's fiction.
--:-- Jack Carr: And I knew that would happen at some point. I knew the people would eventually come through a line, a signing line, and say, I joined the military because of you. Or I became a police officer because of something I read in your books. Because that's me. I was influenced by popular culture growing up. And that helped me on my path into the SEAL teams. So I knew it would happen. I didn't really conceptualize it any further than that. But when it happened, it was the first time, which was a couple years ago, because the first book came out in 2018. So if someone reads that at 16, 17, 18, now they're a few years into this career in law enforcement or in the military. And guys have come up and said that now. And I'm always like, oh, man, I hope you made the right choice. I'm like, oh, I hope I was just one part of a lot of information that you took in in order to make this decision. But but but they do say it now. And like with David Morrell in in Phoenix the other night for the launch of the book, he has been through like burn units and stuff, saying hi to people as part of like USO tours and stuff. And people like missing arms and legs are totally burned. So I joined the military because of Rambo and him. It's like he's such a nice guy. He's just like, oh, it's like devastating.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Devastating.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah. Yeah. So so it's but for me, it's like, hey, it's always going to be about the story. I knew that would happen, but it was a surprise the first time. Kind of like the tattoo was the first surprise was a surprise the first time I saw it. Like the baby the other night was the first was surprised. So it's yeah, it's well, you really honor the actual experiences that these people have in your books. It's it's very believable and realistic. And it does honor those people.
--:-- Jack Carr: Thank you. Thank you. For this one in particular, that's what I wanted to do. I wanted those guys who were not just McVee Sog going over the borders and fighting in denied areas where they weren supposed to be in Cambodia Laos North Vietnam But anyone who stood up and went down there to serve I wanted to make sure I honored them and gave my heart and soul to every word And I felt that responsibility as I was writing this I wanted those guys to read it and say, oh, he put in the effort to get it right. And even people who just lived through the 60s that didn't go downrange, I wanted them to read it and say, oh, he tried to, he got close. Even if I made a mistake here or there, he put in the effort to try to capture the essence of 1968. and that's why so much work went into this.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Those guys that went into the tunnels?
--:-- Jack Carr: Oh, yeah.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Like that is some of, those are some of the fucking craziest stories.
--:-- Joe Rogan: You're going into the tunnels hand to hand.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, with a 1911 and a flashlight.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Looking for Viet Cong and not knowing what you're going to find.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Not knowing who's in there, not knowing what's waiting for you, what's booby trapped.
--:-- Jack Carr: Oh, yeah.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That's got to be some of the toughest fighting one can do. in the dark in a tunnel under the ground essentially by yourself because you can't fit anybody else in there with you did you watch peaky blinders
--:-- Jack Carr: no i need to watch it
--:-- Joe Rogan: it's really awesome yeah but one of the aspects of these characters is that the the peaky blinders were all veterans and they were all in world war one in trench warfare
--:-- Joe Rogan: and they were in the tunnels
--:-- Jack Carr: oh like the trenches
--:-- Joe Rogan: yeah and so like they they came back and they have flashbacks and there's a lot of like shell shock
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, waking up in the middle of the night stabbing people, thinking you're there again.
--:-- Joe Rogan: There's some wild scenes of them in the trenches.
--:-- Joe Rogan: And it's just like, Jesus. And we're seeing some more of that trench stuff in Ukraine.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I mean, whoa.
--:-- Jack Carr: But live video, though.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Live video. I mean, you're seeing like 4K video off cell phones and drones. The drone stuff is scary.
--:-- Jack Carr: I'm so glad that I didn't have to deal with that during my time in.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It's fucking nuts. I was watching a guy who was in the back of a truck, and they were running, and the drone is coming out, and he's firing at the drone and shoots it maybe three, four yards from him.
--:-- Jack Carr: I saw that one.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That's crazy.
--:-- Jack Carr: Fucking nuts.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Fucking nuts. And you realize, like, this is what they're dealing with?
--:-- Joe Rogan: I'm glad I didn't have to deal with that. Exploding drones that are whizzing towards them, and someone on the other end somewhere in the world has got a fucking joystick and trying to get you with it.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, I put that in true believer second book and we put it in the show We filmed it in the second show have a drone attack in there but that was a few few years ago and just imagine when it gets to the next stage where it sends a Mosquito in here a fly and it's looking at your face and it's like Oh worn out for your arrest boom lands on you
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, here you go.
--:-- Jack Carr: Exactly.
--:-- Joe Rogan: And, uh, and that sort of thing. It's crazy. It checks you with some toxic shit.
--:-- Jack Carr: It's a weird time.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah. Like, like those videos that we just saw that looked like Muhammad Ali's on the show. I mean, all that sort of stuff. I mean, it's going to we're getting to that point where it's going to identify you somehow, some sort of an identification through your eyes, through blood, through facial recognition, a combination of all three. And then that is going to allow you to access whatever it is, information online, credit cards, all the rest of it, of course. But what it's really doing is allowing something, whether it's the government or big tech, more control over you, because eventually you're going to go in and OK, to make sure this is you paying for, let's say, a stake. and now all of a sudden, oh, you've had your allotment of steak because of the environment, because of how many cows and whatever they're doing. You can't buy this steak. Or your allotment of power for your vehicle, you've used yours up for the mother. Gas in your car, all of those things. But it's going to know exactly because you're going to have to do it to access information online. And we're getting closer and closer to that every single day.
--:-- Jack Carr: Well, England just submitted to it. They just submitted to digital ID.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, yeah.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, these motherfuckers are pushing digital ID on these people. And once they do digital ID, they're going to attach to a social credit score. They're going to attach it to a carbon footprint score. And then they'll be able to control your movement and control you entirely. And most importantly, they've already arrested 12,000 people for social media posts.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That's insane.
--:-- Jack Carr: Above and beyond every other country, way above Russia. Russia was like 400 last year. The UK is 12,000. There are any criticism of immigration, any criticism of grooming gangs and people being raped, any talk about how horrible this is. They come visit you. It's like someone's trying to destroy England. It's literally like they've got a concerted effort to destroy England and they're getting away with it.
--:-- Jack Carr: And what happens over there? It's really crazy. It's really crazy to watch because the mass immigration is not an accident. It's on if I was gonna destroy a country. I would do it exactly the way they're doing it I take away their freedom take away their ability to protest take away their guns which they did in the 90s and then you start tightening that noose Tighter and tighter add more restrictions more this more that I mean It that we getting closer And just the arresting people When you arrest 12 people for social media posts you don just arrest people for social media posts. You change people's ability to post about things because of fear. So they self-censor. So you don't even, you're hitting them with like, this one guy who complained about, there's a famous video where this fucking idiot in a wig, he's one of them judges, they wear the wigs, the white powdered wigs. And he's sentencing this guy for 20 months for social media posts that are normal, like normal complaints about mass immigration of illegals from other countries that aren't assimilating and that they believe are ruining their society, which there's a real argument for. And that's what online discourse is supposed to be about, like having conversations like I'm voicing my concern for the way society is running right now because of what's happening. and no one's doing anything about it and no one's protecting anybody.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It's nuts, man. Anytime in human history that would be called an invasion.
--:-- Joe Rogan: And now it's not. It's not just an invasion. It's like they're doing it. They're letting people do it. They're enabling these people doing it. And they're putting them on the dole, too, which is even crazier. And, you know, you're seeing that in America as well, where they just uncovered a bunch of people that were illegals that had been given Social Security numbers and were already voting. And this is nuts, man. It's like it's a concerted effort. And this was one of the main focuses that a lot of people had in the 2024 campaign. There was one side that wanted to stop that and one side that wanted to pretend that it was a good thing. And like that you have an open border and criminals and cartel members are just flooding through. People from foreign countries of military fighting age just flooding through. And you're pretending there's nothing wrong with that. Like you're setting us up for a real big fucking problem.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Have you seen the videos? I'm sure you have. It's Bill Clinton. It's Hillary Clinton. It's Schumer. It's Pelosi. It's Biden from the 90s.
--:-- Jack Carr: Oh, yeah.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Like giving these speeches on the floor of Congress that today would be extremely right wing.
--:-- Jack Carr: Extremely.
--:-- Jack Carr: Hillary Clinton.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Normal. in, I think it was 2012, like whatever it was, where she was running for president. And she's more MAGA than MAGA.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Like she is talking about if you a criminal you know no ifs ands or buts you get kicked out And if you here you pay a stiff fine because you cut the line It wild
--:-- Joe Rogan: What happened to that? It's out there, but then most people don't know about it or they don't see it. You have to look for it or something along those lines.
--:-- Jack Carr: Well, it lets you realize that these people that are playing these roles of leaders, they don't have principled stances on things. They go with wherever their party's leaning and wherever the majority of people believe is the direction to go. And they might not even implement these things, but just to say it in order to get elected and get people to vote for them. And that's what they did.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It's insane. Hillary Clinton didn't even believe in gay marriage until 2013. All polling, I guess.
--:-- Jack Carr: But it's a manipulation. And it's also a manipulation of the populace through all these different platforms.
--:-- Joe Rogan: and what did you think also of the I don't like to call them leaders I like to call them elected representatives that's what they're supposed to be it's supposed to represent us and they get there and they represent themselves but how was the inauguration? I didn't get to ask you being in the room with all the lizard people that run the world is so strange it's so weird it was like seeing like Hillary and seeing Obama and seeing Kamala Harris and Biden and Bush and all those people there It was very weird.
--:-- Jack Carr: It's really weird, man. It's real weird. It's real weird being in the Capitol and to realize how strange this whole process is. I mean, there's this public humiliation ritual where Trump goes on stage and talks shit, and they're right behind him. Right there. And they have to eat it. And everybody cheers and claps. And it was very bizarre.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Surreal?
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, very surreal. Very surreal. Surreal also that I'm right there, too, on the stage. Like, what is going on? Five rows back from the president. It's like the strangest fucking thing on earth. And it's also strange just that this is this weird ritual that they do, this changing of the control. And then, you know, the beginning of the battle for the next four years where everybody is like slinking away to try their strategy and figure out what to do next and who's our warrior. And now they're trying to figure it out.
--:-- Jack Carr: Now they're talking about Pete Buttigieg and Kamala Harris. That's what they're going to run.
--:-- Joe Rogan: All right.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, don't fight against that.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Apparently they don't have any faith in Gavin Newsom.
--:-- Jack Carr: Oh, yeah.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Which is kind of funny because he wants to be president so bad. That true what it looks like You can ruin a city and then go on to ruin a state and say guys that was just practice Once I get it as a president I going to fix it Fix it all I mean it so crazy but he such a great politician
--:-- Jack Carr: No, he's not.
--:-- Joe Rogan: He's so smooth.
--:-- Jack Carr: No, I think he's terrible.
--:-- Joe Rogan: How has he remained in power for so long?
--:-- Jack Carr: Because he has low competition. There's no one who's good is competing against him.
--:-- Joe Rogan: There's no sincerity. I should say he's smooth. I mean, he's a good bullshit artist.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, that's what I mean.
--:-- Joe Rogan: But it's like the things that he says when he gets confronted with the highest this and the highest that. Everybody's leaving. You have the highest unemployment. You have the highest homelessness. What's the thing with Hollywood? Money's missing. You killed Hollywood. Like, Hollywood doesn't exist anymore. It's literally gone. That was such an easy one. You mandated vaccines for kids that didn't need them. You did horrible shit.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It's awful. I went to the one in 2017. So January 2017. So we decided not to go to this last one. because we felt like we experienced it last time and there was all the limos on fire and all the chain link fences as we were going to all this stuff. So we decided not to go to this one, but then Tulsi called and asked if I'd go to her swearing in. And so I was like, yeah, of course. And so we went to that one and that was really cool. That was really cool to be in the room with her when she got sworn in.
--:-- Jack Carr: That is cool.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That was amazing, yeah.
--:-- Jack Carr: Have you talked to her about her experience there?
--:-- Joe Rogan: I didn't want to bother her too much, but she just posted about the book actually. I didn't expect her to do that, but she did that today, which is very, very kind.
--:-- Jack Carr: The reality of the work, the reality of being in the organization is very sobering, apparently.
--:-- Jack Carr: Oh, my gosh.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It's got to be like nothing. Whatever you think it is from the outside before you step in, it's got to be a thousand times worse, at least, when you step into it.
--:-- Jack Carr: It's bad. It's bad, and it's very compartmentalized. There's a bunch of people that run various offices, and they're all working against you.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, the bureaucracy is so huge.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I hope she stays in it. I mean, she's such a great person. I mean, I'd support her if we were friends. But but I mean, it's got to be hard to stay in that fight when you see it.
--:-- Jack Carr: She's got a lot of character.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, not that doesn't get rewarded there.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I mean, I'd I'd I mean, I would support her. And there's a path for her, you know, and there's there is definitely a path for her to to get into the White House.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, it could be. She could be our first female president, especially after, you know, we've seen like what they tried to do to her. They put her on the quiet skies thing. So they put her on a terrorist watch list. She was a US Congresswoman for eight fucking years she served overseas in a medical unit right so she was deployed twice in a medical unit, right? She served overseas in a medical unit, right? So she was deployed twice in a medical unit in the middle of the fucking war. And you're labeling her a terrorist. Like whoever did that, like whoever signed off on that should be in fucking jail.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That's crazy. I mean, so much of that stuff. That's such an abuse. That's such an abuse of power.
--:-- Joe Rogan: And you want to talk about like going after your political enemies in a sick third world country way. That's a great example that you put a congresswoman for eight years and the terrorists watch for what right for what reason none
--:-- Jack Carr: No reason there's not like some crazy tweets where she's made and there's nothing like she's so
--:-- Joe Rogan: It's not even like Marjorie Taylor Greene who gets hog wild sometimes. She's not like it's a little aggressive.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, it's a little aggressive like
--:-- Joe Rogan: Tulsi's not like that at all
--:-- Jack Carr: terrorist watch list
--:-- Joe Rogan: shame on you.
--:-- Jack Carr: Fucking shame on you.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Now she's the director of national intelligence.
--:-- Jack Carr: Crazy, right?
--:-- Joe Rogan: It's weird how that happens.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, that's fantastic.
--:-- Joe Rogan: But yeah, the next one, I haven't read the book, but it's Kamala's book where she says she didn't choose Pete Buttigieg because of his sexual orientation. I'm not sure about this. People can correct in the comments, please. But I believe that's illegal. Like if you didn't hire someone because they had a certain sexual orientation, I believe that's illegal.
--:-- Jack Carr: Well, you're allowed to choose who you think is going to work the best.
--:-- Joe Rogan: But not because of, and you'd say something else like, oh, they're not qualified. You cannot. I mean, I believe all someone can tell us if we're, if I'm wrong, we could probably look it up, but I do not think you can do the discriminate against someone strictly because of that. If they're not qualified, of course you choose someone else. Fine. But she goes ahead and says, that's the reason that she didn't hire this guy to be her VP.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I believe that is illegal.
--:-- Jack Carr: Wow. I never even thought of that.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It's insane. Well, she also has been saying something really crazy. She's been saying that this is the closest race of the 21st century and that it wasn't a mandate. That's just not true.
--:-- Jack Carr: It's not true.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Gore and Bush was much closer.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I think that was a half of a percent.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I don't know why she keeps saying this. It's just a lie. And then also she's leaving out the fact that she lost every swing state, every single one.
--:-- Joe Rogan: So, like, what are you talking about?
--:-- Joe Rogan: I know. He won the popular vote and he won the electoral college vote. And that's a mandate. Saying it's not a mandate... but it's almost like if you say it to the converted, they're going to listen and repeat it.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, he barely won.
--:-- Joe Rogan: No, he won. He won every swing state. He won the popular vote. That's called winning. You win the House and you win the Senate. He won. That means he won. Charlie Sheen calls that winning. This is crazy talk.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. It's wild.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It is so wild. But he's probably hammered, and she's probably up there drinking wine.
--:-- Jack Carr: "I'll fucking kick his ass next time, fuck him." It's so brutal. And I think she took credit for the no tax on tips thing in the book as well. That's hilarious, because that was clearly his. Clearly. He said it first and they copied it. It's amazing.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Did she really say that in the book? I haven't read it, but I have heard from someone who did read it that she did. So, you know, people can confess to some guys.
--:-- Jack Carr: She had a dress not coming on here in the book too, which I thought was funny.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, that was interesting. Yeah, her team was not truthful about that encounter at all. They never committed to doing the show ever. They said that, you know, I said that I had a personal day, which is not true. I said, "I am not available the day that Trump was here." I said that day's not... I didn't say that I was having a personal day. They just made that up. That's crazy. And then they also said that they sent someone here to go through the studio, like send someone to do a walkthrough. Not true. No, not true. I mean, it's just you repeat it and you say it and your side believes it. Why would they do that when I can just say that's not true? It's bizarre. But who are they going to believe? They're going to believe me, or a person who literally says whatever the audience wants them to say, which is what they did. Why would I lie? I have no reason to lie. It would have been interesting to... if I fucked her over, I would tell the truth. If I was like, "We lied, we told her I was taking a personal day but realized I wanted to get Trump in," not true. I tried to do both of them in the same day. That was my idea. That would have been amazing. My idea was to do Trump during the day and then her to come. She had a thing she was doing in Houston. After the thing with Houston, I go, "I'll fucking do it at midnight. I don't care. We'll do it whenever you want to do it. While you're in Texas." But I just can't do it during the day because Trump's going to be here.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, yeah. But they had to have known. I mean, the Secret Service was there. There was 200 guys here.
--:-- Joe Rogan: In Texas?
--:-- Jack Carr: No, in this fucking studio. There's 200 people here for Trump. I'm not exaggerating.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It was packed.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It was packed. Bro, they didn't fuck around. They did not fuck around. They surrounded the building. It was nuts.
--:-- Jack Carr: Interesting.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah. They made sure that everything was safe and secure.
--:-- Joe Rogan: So like someone had to know something that he was here. It's not a mystery. But I said, I wasn't trying to be deceptive. I said, "I'll do it later. I just can't do it during this time." That's the excuse they took. They never wanted to do the whole thing. Never. They wanted to do like a 45-minute thing. Scripted. In a different place. They didn't say scripted, but they did say that there were some things that she didn't want to talk about. Then they denied that. Yeah. That's what I meant by scripted. I said, "I don't care. I'll talk to you about cooking. I don't give a fuck. I just want to know, who are you? I'll figure you out. I'll figure you out in a few hours."
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, in three hours, you can't fake your way through a conversation like this.
--:-- Joe Rogan: No, I'll find you. I'll find you. I'll ask you controversial things. All I have to do is ask you, "Why is the border open?" We could talk about that for three hours.
--:-- Jack Carr: Oh my gosh.
--:-- Joe Rogan: What are you trying to do? You could close that border. Trump closed that border in a day. In a day. You could say, "I hate what's going on with ICE, and I don't like it either. I don't like this thing of taking people. And here's the thing." Well, they should have done it the right way. Yeah, okay. But if you're poor and you live in a third world country, that's not an available option. Okay? What is an available option is this one administration over four years is encouraging people to go through. Not only are they encouraging you to go through, there's Red Cross stops along the way. They give you maps. They tell you how to do it. People are being... they're funding people getting in. They're paying for air flights. They're flying people in. They're moving people into swing states. They're getting them on Medicare. They're getting them on Social Security. We talked about this one lady who did an interview. She was being told to try to get people on permanent disability. So she was told to ask them, "Do you have back problems?" And they're like, "Yes." "Okay, great. Permanent disability." Now she said, "I was told to view them as a client now." And so you're trying essentially to bribe people to now, once you get them in, to move to a swing state. Then they count on the census. Once they count on the census, it adds congressional seats.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, yeah.
--:-- Joe Rogan: So it's like you're rigging elections by bringing in immigrants. And then you're giving them money. And all these people that live in these poor communities, they're like, "Hey, where was all this money for us? Where was all this money for the people in Chicago? Where was all this money for the people in Baltimore?" No, no, it's dead. They're doing it because they're trying to manipulate the election. It didn't work. You know, it didn't work. Like, I had an argument with someone about it. But yeah, it didn't work though. I go, "Yeah, but they tried to do it. It didn't work. But they did move people to swing states. They did leave the border open for four years. They did let in millions of people. They don't even know how many. They don't know how many people got through. That's crazy. Once they got them here, they did give them EBT cards. They did give them cell phones. They did. They moved them into the fucking hotel, that Roosevelt Hotel in New York City, the luxury hotel, filled with migrants. They paid for their food. They did do this. They encouraged people. They did have sanctuary cities where they weren't going to arrest them. They let them come in. Still do. Portland right now. It's really contentious. Bananas. It is crazy.
--:-- Jack Carr: Do you think you could have had that conversation, let's say, 15 years ago? That kind of a conversation with Kamala if she was around back then? Let's back up 15 years. Or is talking to all these amazing people that you've talked to over the time this podcast has been in existence has given you this incredible foundation from which to be able to ask such incredible questions of people and get this stuff out of them?
--:-- Joe Rogan: Fifteen years ago, I would have never thought that it would have mattered at all if I had an opinion on anything. It would be like most comics that are doing podcasts today where they're just shooting the shit to their friends and no one cares. No one cares. You know, "I want to vote for this guy because I think we need to try libertarianism and this is why I think it." Like, "Oh, who cares?" And then interesting conversation moves on. Not that like so many people care what my fucking opinion is. Like that to me is a sign of the times. Like if you're coming to a cage fighting commentator and a dirty comedian, like this is the guy that you need an opinion for, that means the media has failed you. Like what I am, I'm a symptom of a broken system. Like if I'm a source of information, like we've got a bit of a supply chain problem.
--:-- Jack Carr: I don't know. I think you're being a little humble on that as well, because where else could someone get these three hours where they can really listen to maybe two sides of a conversation?
--:-- Joe Rogan: Right, but my point is why didn't somebody else do that already? Why didn't mainstream media figure that out? Why did you need someone to figure it out on a laptop in a fucking spare bedroom of their house? Like how is that possibly the number one media show in the world that's birthed out of a laptop in a spare bedroom? It doesn't make any sense.
--:-- Jack Carr: Well, it means you fit.
--:-- Joe Rogan: No, no, no. It means they failed. Yeah, because there's a lot smarter people than me, a lot better people at dissecting what's actually going on in the world than me. But for whatever reason, they can't do it. So how come? You know, unlike... there's a bunch of people in the New York Times that try, but they're all bullshitting. They're never free to give their real opinion. They're never free to say, "You know what, actually, this person that I disagree with fundamentally has a really good point about this." Instead of being ideologically captured, which is like most of them, most of them on the right and most of them on the left, instead of just being able to look at things and go, "This is the actual reality that we're living in," that's a failure. That's a failure of media. It's a failure of journalism. It's a failure. And they say, "Oh, you know, he's not a journalist." You're right. So how come people are listening? Like, what is that about? You tell me why no one else can have these kind of conversations with people and break it down this way.
--:-- Jack Carr: Well, it's because you're limited by your whole system. If you're involved in mainstream media, you're limited by the format. The format sucks. You have to break for commercials. You're sponsored by, brought to you by Pfizer. So there's certain things you can't talk about. You've got handcuffs on. And if you're on the internet and you're ideologically aligned with either the left or the right, well, now you're captured by this box of predetermined opinions that you're supposed to subscribe to.
--:-- Jack Carr: But you recognized an opportunity.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I didn't.
--:-- Jack Carr: Well, you did something.
--:-- Joe Rogan: This is the thing. I just kept doing this. I'm telling you, man, this is not a plan.
--:-- Jack Carr: I know. I know. We've talked about that.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I just kept doing it, and then all of a sudden it became what it is.
--:-- Jack Carr: But you recognized you could plug in a laptop, and you could have a video, you could have a conversation, but it was all just for fun.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, see, that's why it worked. It worked because there was no plan. It was just like, "Let's do this and it'll be fun," and then people tune in because it's fun. And then I start getting like Graham Hancock on and Anthony Bourdain on and getting some guests and it's kind of fun. And it's kind of cool, and then it becomes a cool thing that if you know, you know, like, "Oh, you listen to the podcast?" "Oh, yeah. Yeah, Joe Rogan's got good guests, asks good questions." And it became what it is now. But it's all just because I enjoy doing it. It was never because I recognized like, "Oh, there's an opening."
--:-- Jack Carr: Oh, no, I didn't mean it like that. I meant like it was very, very natural. That's also a part of it. It's not like you like, "What can I do?" Like, no, that's not it. Not where some people do do that. Like, "Hey, what can be my thing? Oh, okay, X, Y, and Z. Okay, I'll give speaking about events on this certain thing. And okay, that's my thing now. Because I realized there's a gap. Okay, I'm going to do that." That's different. That's not moving the needle. Probably for anybody in that audience. Maybe for one person or something like that. And you're not looking at it like that. You're doing it because it was this very natural thing for you to do. And it happened to grow into what it is today, which is amazing. Which makes it even more powerful that it was natural than you weren't this artificial guy over here saying, "What's the opportunity? Oh, I can make X dollars by speaking about this topic to this audience. Okay, I'm going to do that and be happy or whatever." Instead, it was the opposite of that. It was very natural. And so it's a very different thing as far as opportunity goes.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Well, that's the weirdness about today, right, is because you could just start a YouTube channel. Like anybody who's a doctor or a historian could just start a YouTube channel and just start talking. Like just think about all the stuff that you learned about Vietnam from writing this book. You could just break down moments like Dan Carlin style about Vietnam and just sit there and talk about it. And people would be like, "That's fascinating. Jack Carr in Vietnam. You've seen this video?" And then it would get passed around. Next thing you know, it's got a half a million views. Next thing you know, it's got a million. And then everybody's sharing it on social media. That's the most fascinating thing about today. Like if you say something cool and it becomes a part of a clip and somebody likes it, it gets blasted all over the whole world. It's on TikTok. It's on X. It's on Instagram. And then it's on YouTube and like 100 different channels. There's all these channels that pop up and they take advantage of the algorithm. So they take these little clips.
--:-- Jack Carr: I can't do that. I can never do something for clicks or for anything like that.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I don't either. But other people will.
--:-- Jack Carr: I know. You don't have to do it. That's what's interesting.
--:-- Joe Rogan: The vast majority of our clips online have nothing to do with us. I didn't put them up there. I don't know who the fucking person is that's editing them and clipping them together. Some of those cuts even put their own watermark on it. Like, "Whoever you are, cut the shit. That's not you." "Mind of a Winner" like calm. Okay, they do that stuff and they put their own little fucking website on it. But it's just a weird time. It's a weird time for the distribution of information. And mainstream media dropped the ball. They missed these openings. And they're not capable of being free.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. There's too many cooks. Like all the notes that you were getting on season one, right? You don't get them anymore because it's successful. Like that kind of... every show on television has got to deal with all these goddamn cooks. All these chefs. "Add a little of this and add a little of that." You can't do it. You can't do it. It's like we were talking about earlier. Now people are trying to get that clip. So their life and their income is relying on trying to get that clip. But I think what they don't realize is that that's a blip. You know, like that's a... what's that one thing? And then it's back down, back down here. It's not a boom and then going from there. You have to continually add value to people's lives. I think long term, if you're going to build something of substance, and that's what you have done obviously, and it's incredible to watch. And you know, via via part of from the audience side, and then to you know the friends and all that stuff... fucking weird shit, I know. But then we see that stuff like with Charlie Kirk and people trying to take advantage of that to get a click.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I know. That we're in the same room with. And that's a different deal. And that's why when I look at long-term, when we're talking about, and you always remain so hopeful about the future, and I love it, and I try to remain hopeful as well. But when you think about it in those types of terms, like this thing's not going away. And what's next? Metaglasses. Okay, we got the metaglasses. They gave me some at UFC, actually.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Did they?
--:-- Jack Carr: Have you fucked with them yet?
--:-- Joe Rogan: No, because I left them under my seat. And as soon as they gave them to me, I knew I was going to leave them under that seat. They handed it to me when I came in. And I'm like, "I'm 100% leaving this behind." Put it under the seat. I told Monica, I'm like, "Monica, remind me to bring these things with me." And then we just had such a great time, we totally forgot. The Chicago one, yeah, they gave them to me as I was leaving, so I grabbed them. I'm like, "Thank you very much." And I have them. Have you done it? Have you put them on?
--:-- Jack Carr: I put them on when they were here. I haven't done the new ones, but I've done several versions. I've tried them. They're pretty fucking incredible.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I'm not wearing them, but we've had to stop people from wearing them at the comedy club. They try to film things with metaglasses on. Kind of funny.
--:-- Jack Carr: Interesting. All glasses have to go in the pouch, just like the phones last night.
--:-- Joe Rogan: No, it's just everybody who works there knows what a metaglass is.
--:-- Jack Carr: Right, but now they do. But then what happens five years from now when you can put them in anything?
--:-- Joe Rogan: Well, it's going to be contact lenses, and then it's going to be over. And then it's going to be in the brain, some sort of implant.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. There'll be some sort of a hard drive that you go by.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Nope. Not for me.
--:-- Jack Carr: No, not for me either, but we're the last of the regular people. Because it's going to be normal now, going forward.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, it's going to be a cyborg nation. I like how you're hopeful. You were hopeful earlier.
--:-- Jack Carr: No, I am still hopeful. I mean, I hope it works out well, but change is inevitable, and our change is technologically driven, and it's an integration. The integration between this incredible technology that's available now to everybody through these AI platforms, and then your phone, and then your biology. Many people are wearing them Apple Watches, and they're getting text messages and emails and making phone calls on their watch.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I know. It's awful. I judge someone immediately when I see an Apple Watch, unless it's for health reasons. But I see someone with an Apple Watch, I immediately judge.
--:-- Jack Carr: But that's the same thing, using the watch to tell a story about the person or gear, whatever it might be, 1911, 1945, the new Staccato that tells me something about that person, what kind of hat they wear, belt they wear, leather set up, kydex set up, all those things, Solomon shoes versus whatever, Oakleys versus Gators, all those things tell me something about a person. But I immediately judge. I make judgments based on very little information, and that watch tells me something. And then they get into the Tesla, and I'm like, "Oh, okay, Apple Watch, Tesla." You know, and some of those things, it seemed like they just have no soul. You know what I mean?
--:-- Joe Rogan: The Apple Watch thing is weird because it's like, do you really need it all on your wrist? Buzzing all the time? And you have to charge it every day. And then, like, I have a Garmin, and it's a digital watch. It's got maps on it and stuff like that, but I use it when I go hunting. And I can put that fucker on full charge. It'll go like a month and a half, and it'll charge partially because of solar. I can do less than that. I got nothing else to charge. Did they give me something else to charge? I can't do it. But the thing about those Garmins, what I like about them is you could sync it up to your range finder. There's a bunch of different things you could do. You could have maps on it. And if you had to get out of somewhere and you're fucked and you're in the woods, you could pull up the GPS on your watch and you could figure out where the trailhead is. And you can get out. You could figure out where the road systems are and you can get out. And you can just say, "Okay, I just have to go due north for six miles and I'm going to hit a road." Like that can save your life. Like if you're in the middle of the woods you don't know what the fuck is going on and something happens and you're like, "Okay, we have to get out of here. We can't go back the way we came. How do I get to some form of civilization in a reasonable amount of time?"
--:-- Jack Carr: I'm a map and compass guy.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That's great. Map and compass.
--:-- Jack Carr: The Waltham compass. I put that in the... it's in the book right here. The Vietnam guys had them on their Segos. On the watches.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, yeah.
--:-- Jack Carr: Those are awesome. So I had one of those near me as I was writing the book as well. And we put one into the show, Dark Wolf. The guys are on the fire in the first episode. Jared's there as Boozer and Pratt's there and Taylor's there and Tom Hopper's there on this fire. And that scene, I think, is one of the best ones. And Tom gets a gift from Reese, from Chris Pratt, and he opens it, and it's that wrist compass from Vietnam. That's really cool. And that scene was really cool to see. See Jared in particular, a buddy from the SEAL teams who gives Chris the book. Now he's an actor. He's an executive producer, a writer, wrote an episode, and technical advising for things on that show. That's awesome. And he got to act a lot more in this one, and it's so good. That's so cool. I hope nobody poaches him away from us. He's so good at all of those things. So I've got to keep close hold on Jared. He's so fantastic in it. But that scene in particular, I think a lot of people who were in Iraq and Afghanistan that spent time around the fire or any warriors who spent time around a fire or hunters that spent time around a fire will identify with that scene, the sharing of stories between hunters and warriors. And that was a powerful scene to film. And we did that early on. That was the first week of filming. It was pretty cool.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That's awesome. Most people don't know how to use a compass at all. See, me, I'd do well with the compass and the map, but not so good with the Garmin. I'd be like, "Where's my..." Have you ever figured out a way to use your watch as a compass? I know there's a thing that you can do, but I don't know. Because they have like dials that like... yeah, so it looks like a diver dial, but it's north, south, east, west. I think you have to wait on the shadow or something. You can do that with a stick in the ground also. The whole thing, there's a whole process to figuring out... excuse me, where east, north, west, east, and then somehow or another you use your watch.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. No, there's something like that. But yeah, map, compass, the sun across the sky, where it is, time of day.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, but that's obvious stuff, right?
--:-- Joe Rogan: Well, and more hope. Rises in the East, sets in the West. But when you're looking at your watch, there's some sort of way to figure out where everything is. I don't get it.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, I think there was on, what is it, the Wild, what was it, Bear Grylls show? I think he talked about it in one of those whole shows.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, I watched a whole YouTube video on it. I'm like, "I don't get it. I still don't get it." Oh, man. But there's some... you know, everybody has a compass on their phone now, too.
--:-- Jack Carr: I know. And then that thing dies.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I don't know. That's a problem. I can plug anything in. But did you get out hunting this year?
--:-- Joe Rogan: Did you get hunting this year?
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. Yeah.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Did you get to Utah?
--:-- Jack Carr: Utah, yeah.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. I think I remember when you were there, I was in Morocco, I think. The last couple months I just been totally on the road, which has been great. I was there the week of the 15th.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, okay. Right after.
--:-- Jack Carr: Okay. It was great. We caught it right in the rut.
--:-- Jack Carr: I was in Morocco.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. But it was a good time?
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, we had a good time. Yeah, it was awesome. It was beautiful. I haven't been out in a while. Been to Lanai. Done that just because it's an easy, you know, flight out there, say the Four Seasons, the family loves it, all that stuff. No, there's some... right with the kids. So for me when I go out now, it's all about the kids and getting them out there on the rifle.
--:-- Jack Carr: Rifle hunting in Lanai is infinitely more effective.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yes. Agreed.
--:-- Jack Carr: Agreed. Bow hunting in Lanai is really hard. And it seems crazy because there's so many animals, but the success rate is really low.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, yeah. Especially those winds and swirling and everything like that. But if you're on the timeline... Did you get back to Nobu in time for dinner? Then you use that rifle. Yeah. Also, it's the best way to get the meat, and that's the best meat. Right up there with elk almost.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, yeah. It's just like slightly less desirable to me than elk.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, yeah. Axis deer. Axis deer is really good.
--:-- Joe Rogan: So good. It's delicious. And that's one of the cool things about if you stay on the Nye, which is there's two Four Seasons there, and the Four Seasons that's on the water is incredible.
--:-- Joe Rogan: But they have these Axis Burger sliders.
--:-- Jack Carr: Oh, yeah.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, Axis deer sliders are so good.
--:-- Joe Rogan: And the carpaccio. Have you had the carpaccio there?
--:-- Jack Carr: I've had everything there. It's frigging great.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, it's great. But what a weird place where you can hunt deer during the day and then stay at the Four Seasons.
--:-- Jack Carr: Not bad. The other one's a Sensei Spa now up top, so they switched it up.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, it's this crazy high-end spa in the old Four Seasons. It used to look like a hunting lodge type of a thing. So that's a Sensei Spa now. But, yeah, it's a good time. That's the only hunting I've been doing the last couple years now.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Well, you were part of the Pineapple Brothers, right?
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, yeah. Like you're one of the organization that runs the outfitting out there. Alec out there, who's the guy. Do they have a lot of people come out there every year?
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, it's pretty booked. Yeah, pretty booked all year because the family gets to go. It's very unique in that respect.
--:-- Joe Rogan: You get the family.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It's also like such a... there's, first of all, you have to hunt them.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, yeah.
--:-- Joe Rogan: There's 30,000 deer on an island with 3,000 people.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That is so crazy.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. And if you see them at night in particular, when you shine a headlight out to the field, you're like, "There's no way this is sustainable." And it's not, so they literally have to hunt them.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, and hunting's such a big part of the Hawaiian culture too. People don't realize that. They think of the beaches and everything else, don't realize how big a part of the culture that really is.
--:-- Jack Carr: Oh, yeah. That's where the luau is all about, right?
--:-- Joe Rogan: There you go. It's wild pig hunting. That's it. They're not using farm pigs. Yeah. Maybe now they might be in some places, I don't know. Yeah, I'm sure some resorts are using that. But for the traditional way, it was like you're hunting pigs.
--:-- Joe Rogan: And those pigs were brought over by sailors. That's how they got on that island in the first place.
--:-- Jack Carr: Well, the axis came over from India, so it's all coming over from someplace. But it's nice there's no snakes, too.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That's true. That is nice. And there's nothing that's an animal that can kill you on land. That's pretty good. Different than Australia.
--:-- Jack Carr: But in the water.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Hence why you don't surf. It gets a little squirrely.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. It gets a little squirrely out there with the tiger sharks.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah. 100% chance of not getting eaten by a shark if you don't go in the water.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Fuck all that, dude. Same thing with skydiving. Like, I'm done with the skydiving. No more. No more of that. Thank you. Please.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That seems unnecessary at this point. Stop, Tom Cruise. Exactly.
--:-- Jack Carr: Tom Cruise, we need...
--:-- Joe Rogan: Hey, Tom Cruise, cut the shit. You did it already. We want more movies. We can do it on the green screen now. Come on. Enough, buddy. Enough.
--:-- Joe Rogan: So no more of that sort of thing. As fun as it was. The flying around was always fun, but the jumping, eh. The flying around, great. And then when you have to go to pull through that sequence, it's like that's when... that's the moment of truth. And if you know this doesn't work, then there are procedures you need to go through in order to get this secondary, get the backup shoot going. Nightmare.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, no, no. Not good.
--:-- Joe Rogan: No, no. I'm good. But I'll go in the water, though. I'll still go in the water with the sharks, but not to launch up out of the plains. But, yeah, we were down in Nicaragua a few months ago. The kids were surfing and all that stuff. But I'm thinking about sharks the whole time. You know Adam Greentree?
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, I don't know him personally, but I know who he is.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Adam told me that... I'm sorry if I told this story yesterday, folks. But Adam spearfishes. He said that the sharks have learned the sound of the speargun going off. And so somebody gave him flippers that had scales on them because they thought it was cool to give him flippers. And these bull sharks showed up after he shot a fish and they bit his fucking flippers off.
--:-- Jack Carr: Because the flippers had scales on them.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Well, don't use those anymore. Yeah, fuck all that. I'm like, "Why did you?" He goes, "I was thinking about it, Mike. This isn't good." I'm like, "Yeah, it's not good. It's not good." He goes, "Then they bit them off my feet."
--:-- Joe Rogan: I'm like, "Oh my God." Have you seen the lady that swims with the sharks? Have those popped up on your YouTube?
--:-- Jack Carr: Oh, yeah.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah. I mean, I hate to say it, but the grizzly guy, what happened to the grizzly guy?
--:-- Joe Rogan: Well, I think she knows what she's doing, and I think it's a little different, because sharks don't target people. Most of the times when they're killing people, it's an accident, because they think the people's a seal.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, maybe. Maybe right.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I don't know.
--:-- Jack Carr: Exactly. Exactly.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I mean, there's that like the SeaWorld one, member of the SeaWorld thing, like took that lady down.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, but that's different. They don't ever do that in the wild. Orcas in the wild don't kill people. They only kill people when people fuck with them. That's all it is.
--:-- Joe Rogan: One of the things that's been happening lately is they've been sinking boats. I saw those videos. That's crazy.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, they decide, "fuck you," and they start sinking boats. That's amazing.
--:-- Joe Rogan: And that's something that we haven't seen before, right?
--:-- Jack Carr: No, it's very new.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Crazy. It's like within this decade.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It's a very recent thing, and it's one particular part of the world where it seems to be occurring over and over again. And I don't know what happened. Like, maybe somebody fucked with a killer whale. Like, maybe somebody did something terrible.
--:-- Joe Rogan: And then that sonar, whatever they talk, goes out. Where is it where they're attacking killer whales? Because, like, you're talking about evil and wealthy people, and we're getting into that thing. You know what I mean? Like, and they're attacking yachts. You know what I'm saying? Like, how many cunts are on a yacht? They're like, "let's shoot the killer whale." And they're firing rifles at killer whales. Maybe. And they're like, "oh, yeah?"
--:-- Joe Rogan: "How about some of this action?" And then bam. I bet there's some shitheads out there.
--:-- Jack Carr: The boat-roaming orcas.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, there's a new theory.
--:-- Joe Rogan: About why orcas are targeting sailboats in the Iberian Peninsula. They're using them to practice hunting their favorite food.
--:-- Jack Carr: I don't like your theory. I think your theory sucks. I'm not buying it. I bet somebody was an asshole. I bet someone killed one of those orcas.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Would you go down with the shark cage off of like...
--:-- Jack Carr: No fucking way.
--:-- Joe Rogan: No, I did do one thing with my family once a long time ago. We did not scuba dive but snorkeled. We snorkeled with dolphins. That was pretty badass. So you find a pod of dolphins and then you jump overboard. And you can get within like 50-60 yards of them. And they're swimming around, it's kind of cool. You see them swimming underwater and shit, it's pretty badass.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That was cool. But they're not interested in you. They're like, "get out of here." But if you're on a boat, they are interested in you. It's interesting. Maybe it was just the circumstance that we had. Maybe sometimes they come and play with you. But I've been on boats before where they come right up next to the boat and they jump and they put on a show for you. As the boat is moving its way through the water, they're flipping and they're looking at you. They're looking at you and they come out of the water. And it's really clear that they're kind of playful and they're interacting with people.
--:-- Jack Carr: Right. Different than the sharks that come into the shark cage and just crunch it. You see one with the guy, I would have done that a long time ago. I don't know if I'd do it now.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, the one guy with the shark that comes in?
--:-- Joe Rogan: I mean, come on.
--:-- Jack Carr: This is an updated article from last month about the same group of-
--:-- Joe Rogan: Jaws came out again. I'd do it now. I'd do it now. But it comes in. I mean, come on. This is an updated article from last month about this. Jaws came out again. It was like a 50th anniversary or something. So I saw it in the theater with my son. And it was pretty cool to see in the theater.
--:-- Jack Carr: Okay, here it is. "While some initial reports suggested that the Iberian orcas could be carrying out revenge against the ships, this has been dismissed by many orca experts. Why? The encounters often involve young orcas going straight for the rudders. Scientists have suggested the orcas are likely just bored teenagers with more free time since Atlantic bluefin tuna populations, their favorite prey in the region, recovered, meaning they need to spend less time hunting."
--:-- Joe Rogan: What does it say? "Click on 'dismissed by many orcas'." Click on that link, almost find out why they think it's dismissed. Like what's their rationalization?
--:-- Jack Carr: "Oh wow, open letter to... regarding Iberian orcas and their interactions with boats. Undersigned are experts in biology and behavior of cetaceans with several specializing in orcas, also known as killer whales. There's been intense public interest in interactions between orcas, as the Iberian orcas and marine vessels along the coast of the Iberian Peninsula and in neighboring waters. We are concerned that factual errors regarding these interactions are being repeated in the media along with a narrative lacking a basis in science or reality that the animals are aggressively attacking vessels or seeking revenge against mariners."
--:-- Joe Rogan: Well, first of all, stop right there. They are aggressively attacking vessels. I watched it. There's a video. You can watch it. It sure looks like it. These people are on the boat, and it starts slamming into the boat, and it sinks the boat. The guys, the people are freaking out on that boat, too.
--:-- Jack Carr: Of course you are.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I think it's probably people are... "Oh, the whales have shown a wide range of behaviors during the interactions, many of them consistent with playful social behavior." Yeah, because they're having a good time sinking these boats. I don't know. People and their fucking narratives. All I'm saying is the grizzly guy gets eaten by the grizzly. The rattlesnake guy gets bit by the rattlesnake. The shark person, I mean, I just worry.
--:-- Jack Carr: It could certainly happen.
--:-- Jack Carr: It certainly could happen. The grizzly guy, though, I think that was suicide by bear.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, yeah.
--:-- Jack Carr: Did you watch that documentary?
--:-- Joe Rogan: No, I just heard about it so many times I feel like I've seen it.
--:-- Jack Carr: It's a fun documentary.
--:-- Jack Carr: It's Werner Herzog.
--:-- Jack Carr: He's brilliant, and he turns it into a comedy.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It is kind of a comedy. It's like an unintentional comedy about a guy who's really fucking stupid and hangs out with bears way too long and eventually gets eaten. Man, I went up there in Alaska going up the rivers bear hunting. And I mean you walking right by them. It is insane, just looking for the right one and an old one. And it's crazy how close you get and how comfortable the guides are working their way up these river systems. Off of both, stay on a boat, you go in, and then you work your way up to the day and come back. But it was wild to be so close. I'm like, I'm very nervous because you always hear about don't get between the mom and the cubs type thing. And you're walking right by them. You're like, "okay, you know, here we go." And they're so big.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, the 375 for that one. It's the Ironsight 375.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Ironsight?
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, yeah.
--:-- Joe Rogan: How come?
--:-- Jack Carr: Just because it's going to be close.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, Jesus.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, fog.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, yeah.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, fogging up.
--:-- Jack Carr: Give me that close. I don't want to worry about the condensation on the paint. You're right down there.
--:-- Joe Rogan: How close was the shot?
--:-- Jack Carr: I didn't take one, but we had one.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, very wet.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, everything's just soaking wet, and it's just fog, mist, the whole thing. So the only one we had, we had a charge. And I think I told you that. I can't remember. Had a charge and the guy came in. He was a little young. She was like, my guide said, it was a female guide. She's amazing. She said, "he's legal." I'm like, that's not what you want to hear. You know, you want something that's really old and you want to be contributing to this, you know, conservation. He's young. You know, I didn't want to do that. "Legal" is not a word you want to hear when you're hunting.
--:-- Jack Carr: But it was curious also. So it was young. So it was curious. So it kept coming in, kept coming in and she's yelling at it and I'm just right there just on the trigger ready to go and it's coming, it's coming, and then it gets close and it stops and it starts doing that like going back and forth type thing and it's pretty close. I had most of it on video and then I didn't want to be the guy that has the phone out and gets eaten, so I put it down. So you can so he gets close and then I put it down so you can still hear it because it's still running, so I still have the video you can hear. And he goes like this and he starts to charge and he veers the other way though, he veers off. So she goes, she's yelling at him and she says "shoot" and I start to press the trigger and she goes "no, no, no" like in the same sentence, because he veered off. Because he veered off, he looked like he was gonna come and it was so close. I was like, "oh okay, that's all right." So then we made our way back out and couldn't get one on that trip. But it was beautiful up there. It was beautiful. I love it up there. It's the last frontier.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It is. I'd go up there. I'd go live up there.
--:-- Jack Carr: Would you?
--:-- Jack Carr: My wife wouldn't, so I think we'll stay in Park City. But I'd go up there for sure. It's a crazy place.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It's Park City on steroids.
--:-- Jack Carr: It's well, I mean not Park City, but like the Utah mountains.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, I mean it is so vast. I love it. When you're up there, the feeling of insignificance when you realize like, "oh, this is just us. There's no people anywhere near us for a long time, for like a few hours in a plane."
--:-- Jack Carr: Yep. That's what we did. Went to Wrangell Mountains my last trip. I think it was my last trip up there.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Did you guys see wolves?
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. Got a wolf. Got a bear. Got a moose. All in one trip. It was crazy.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, big ones of everything, too. It was crazy.
--:-- Jack Carr: This is awesome because you could eat that sucker for a whole year.
--:-- Jack Carr: We gave much of it to the guides and their families and all that stuff because it's so much to take back.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, yeah.
--:-- Jack Carr: But that was John Dubin and Frank LeCron, who were also in Pineapple Brothers. But we went up there just to list us and a guide, two guides that know what they're doing up there.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Did you guys fly in like a push plane?
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, push plane and into camp one night and then get on the horses and then going up into the mountains with the horses and then make camp there and then push out from that every day.
--:-- Jack Carr: It was fantastic.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, it was beautiful.
--:-- Jack Carr: That was beautiful. That was 2022, I think.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, sure. I mean, everything's so vast. And I love Alaska. My plan was to go to Alaska and Africa, like, back to every other year. And then that didn't happen.
--:-- Jack Carr: Well, it's the only place in this country at this point where you can hunt grizzlies. And they really need to do something about that in some of these other states where they're talking about opening it up because, like, they are not scared of people anymore. And the interactions are getting more and more frequent. And they're not doing anything to curb the populations. And that's the thing we're talking about with Lanai. And people that are not involved in hunting and don't understand the conservation aspect of it, you can't just have an unchecked population of animals, including predators.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah. And all these fucking people are voting with their heart instead of letting wildlife biologists say, "no, this is actually bad for the animals, for the overall population of them."
--:-- Joe Rogan: And it's also going to be bad for people.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. I mean, animals and people collide. Mountain lions in California, of course.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Preposterous.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Preposterous.
--:-- Jack Carr: Utah's changed their laws. Utah, they're like coyotes now.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, is that right? I didn't even know that.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Well, there's too many interactions.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. I got a big one a couple years. One came on our- They've adjusted. Our neighbor's game cam. Huge one came through, which is good because well-fed.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Right. And that's the one when they get skinny and get a little dicey.
--:-- Jack Carr: Huge one came through right around Thanksgiving when all the families in town, and we're up in the mountains right there, pretty remote, and everybody's there, the kids are there, so I'm kind of like, "oh man."
--:-- Joe Rogan: And I'm sure they've seen me a ton of times and I never seen them. They probably been watching you.
--:-- Jack Carr: Gotta get my game cams up.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Gotta get those game cams up. I have a bunch. I might just need to figure out how to link them all up. I need someone to help me link them all up and the Wi-Fi and the whole thing.
--:-- Jack Carr: Well, they get set up with cell phones now.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, exactly. That's what's cool. So you get text messages every time something walks through your camera.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, I need to do that. I put about 25 different 3D targets up. The Archery Challenge guys came up, so I have a course that I can walk that I don't usually do.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That's great, though. That's great to just have in the backyard. That's awesome.
--:-- Jack Carr: That's pretty sweet. That's awesome. But I want to get some game cams on them to see what the interaction is because the moose come through, the elk come through, the mule deer come through. And I want to see those interactions. We have about 200 turkeys it seems, probably more like 100 or 50, but a lot come through every day. So I do love it up there. And you know if someone's up there that you know if they shouldn't be there.
--:-- Jack Carr: And it was crazy. So we're after Charlie Kirk. Remember the only thing we had was that this guy was in black, right?
--:-- Jack Carr: So I'm on edge. I'm devastated by this thing. I'm really feeling it. I met him once. Didn't know him but I have our mutual friends who were very close to him. So anyway, I was just devastated by this thing and the kids saw it so I'm devastated by that. It's just awful all the way around. And there's a knock at our door and I'm like, and this is like the next day, and I'm like "no one's supposed to be here." Our gate was busted so we're getting a whole new security system but the gate was busted then and it's being fixed now. So I'm like "who's this?" And I look, I can look out from a place where no one can see me and it's this guy in all black. I knew it wasn't in my mind. I knew this isn't the person, but you're hearing that's the only description. This guy is head to toe black up in the mountains where I've never seen him before. Like you have to work to get up to us. And his car was semi nice parked outside. I'm like, "what is this?" I feel like an Audi or something. I'm like, "this is weird." And he was overweight. He didn't really fit the description, but all black. So I'm on edge already. So I grabbed the pistol and go down to the door and his back is to the door. So you can't see his face. So I'm like, so I had the pistol behind my back, a little 226 behind my back, because I can do some work with that thing. And I'm like "yeah?" And he's like "oh, we're doing some work around the corner with some cement. Do you need any work with cement around here?" I'm like "no." Like you're not, pretty nice to people, but I was like, and he's okay walks from you. Can't just walk up people around here like that without an appointment. Clearly the gate is meant to keep people out.
--:-- Jack Carr: And you come up all dressed in black the day after this thing happens and you randomly knock on a door. And then you turn your back to the door. And you have your back to the door.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That's so weird.
--:-- Jack Carr: Bizarre.
--:-- Joe Rogan: You come up all dressed in black the day after this thing happens, and you randomly knock on a door. And then you turn your back to the door. That's so weird.
--:-- Jack Carr: Bizarre.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Do you know who the guy is?
--:-- Jack Carr: No, I was just like, he was doing some work on one of the other places. You want to know if you need cement? I need some cement. Isn't that odd? But in my mind, I'm like, "well, I was just casing for something."
--:-- Joe Rogan: I wonder if maybe he was like a stalker fan that found where you are, and that was his excuse.
--:-- Jack Carr: I didn't think about that. I was more thinking about just the description of the Charlie Kirk person.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That's what I would think immediately. It'd be like, "oh, you have cement?"
--:-- Joe Rogan: "Why do you have extra cement, dude?" Bizarre. You're knocking on people's doors asking if they need cement?
--:-- Jack Carr: I think it was really somebody hustling, like trying to do some work, like handyman type stuff, whatever. But that was crazy. One other person came up to the house when they shouldn't have, and that was very strange.
--:-- Joe Rogan: If you're in the mountains and someone visits you, it can be very sketchy. Especially in the middle of the night.
--:-- Jack Carr: That was during the day, but this other one was in the middle of the night.
--:-- Joe Rogan: The middle of the night? Like how late?
--:-- Jack Carr: Like midnight.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Oh, Jesus.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah. And so that one, I put the AR by the door, had the pistol, and went over there. It ends up they were looking for another house up there. But it was very bizarre.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, it's late. Late in a storm.
--:-- Jack Carr: Oh, boy.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Coming down.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, coming down. So you're like, was this one of those things where you open the door and the other guys rush in?
--:-- Joe Rogan: Right. The type of thing, because it was a lady stumbling down through the snow with what I thought was a headlamp. It ended up being her phone. I saw a video like that online where this lady knocked on the door and a bunch of dudes came.
--:-- Jack Carr: Exactly. Yeah.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Exactly.
--:-- Jack Carr: So anyway, yeah. So working on the new security system.
--:-- Jack Carr: But if you come knocking on the door, you shouldn't be there. People need to have a little more common sense.
--:-- Jack Carr: Or you're going to get, you know.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Isn't it terrible, though, that you have to think like that? Like someone could just have a car broken down.
--:-- Joe Rogan: And just need help.
--:-- Jack Carr: I know. You have to be on edge completely.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah. And if that was the case, of course, I'd go out. But then you're still thinking like, "oh, they're just going to get me out of the house."
--:-- Jack Carr: Exactly.
--:-- Jack Carr: Maybe someone's waiting to get you out of the house. And then other people run in.
--:-- Jack Carr: So it's got to be smart. Maybe call. "Hey, why don't you call some authorities up here and we'll just wait. Let's wait right here until they get here and they can help you with your car or whatever it was." But yeah. So trying to get a little better with the security type things.
--:-- Joe Rogan: There's something about the woods and the mountains alone when you're by yourself that you worry about people coming to visit you anyway. You worry about people just showing up.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It's not normal.
--:-- Joe Rogan: And if you're a person that just shows up, you have to recognize that. That's a very vulnerable position.
--:-- Jack Carr: Right. By yourself in a house in the woods or with your family in a house in the woods and you just show up while it's snowing.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah. This is the beginning of a movie.
--:-- Joe Rogan: This is a horrible movie.
--:-- Jack Carr: Exactly.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah. And when we lived in town, people did come by and kind of expect it. You live in town. There's no real security, whatever. It's kind of more expected. That's a little more normal. When you're way up there, and especially on the guy dressed in black was weird. Like when it gets darker, like when you're rather in the woods and it gets darker and then people show up, those people immediately seem like danger.
--:-- Jack Carr: A suspect.
--:-- Jack Carr: Especially in the woods.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah. I mean that old instinct that kept us alive for so long. Like, "I need to be on edge here."
--:-- Jack Carr: Exactly.
--:-- Joe Rogan: And tell who is his friend or foe.
--:-- Joe Rogan: That kind of thing.
--:-- Jack Carr: Until you know.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Some invading tribe member.
--:-- Jack Carr: Exactly. In the middle of the night. Until you absolutely know you're going to err on the side of caution and protecting your life and the lives of your loved ones.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Well, listen, brother.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, man.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I'm very excited about this book.
--:-- Jack Carr: Thank you.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I want to get into it. Is the audio available right now?
--:-- Jack Carr: Audio available. Ray Porter. It's out right now. And yeah, audio, e-book, hardcover.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I like how you went back to James Reese's dad, too.
--:-- Jack Carr: Ah, there it is. Yeah, yeah. And we're pitching this to Amazon here I think in the next month or so as a series. So you never know if it's going to happen or not, but that'd be a cool one. I think people are ready for another Vietnam style TV show or movie. It's been a while.
--:-- Joe Rogan: It's been a while since we've had a good one. At the very least, book. I'm excited.
--:-- Jack Carr: Yeah, and this one was essentially, it's an espionage thriller set in Saigon, but set in Southeast Asia more specifically. And no one's really done that since Quiet American, Graham Greene, Tears of Autumn. And Graham Greene was 1955, and Tears of Autumn was 1974, and Jean Le Carre was the Honorable Schoolboy in 1977. So it's been a while.
--:-- Joe Rogan: Yeah, Cry Havoc, available right now. Congratulations on everything, brother.
--:-- Jack Carr: Thank you.
--:-- Joe Rogan: I'm very, very happy for you. So great to see you. This is awesome to see you killing it out there.
--:-- Jack Carr: Thanks, brother. Appreciate everything.
--:-- Joe Rogan: My pleasure.
--:-- Jack Carr: Bye, everybody. Take care.
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