--:-- Ryan Knudsen: Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Ryan Knudsen. It's Monday, October 28th.
--:-- Thomas Grove: Back in February, our colleague Thomas Grove got an interesting tip. Very early this year, I basically had a conversation with a source who told me that Elon Musk was having conversations with Vladimir Putin. And what did you think when you heard that?
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: When my source told me that Elon Musk was having conversations with Vladimir Putin directly and through intermediaries, I kind of was taken aback and shocked for a few seconds and I didn't really know what to make of it. And it only took me a minute or two to kind of get my head back together and start asking some more questions about what this was all about. And I thought at the time that if this turned out to be true, this would be a pretty huge deal.
--:-- Thomas Grove: Over the next eight months, Tom and a team of reporters spoke with several current and former U.S., European, and Russian officials who confirmed the contact between Musk and Putin. And why was this such a big deal?
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: It raises all kinds of important questions because this is the richest man in the world and the United States' most powerful, important, and influential businessman. And on the other end of the line, you have Vladimir Putin. who has obviously emerged in the last decade or so as the United States' chief adversary.
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--:-- Ryan Knudsen: The Wall Street Journal published Tom's reporting last week, revealing that Elon Musk has been in regular contact with Russian President Vladimir Putin and other high-ranking Russian officials. Musk didn't respond to requests for comment. After our story published, when someone joked on X about Musk being a Russian agent, he responded with two laughing emojis.
--:-- Thomas Grove: Musk's relationship with Russia has evolved over time. Back in early 2022, when Russia invaded Ukraine. At this hour, it appears the largest city in Ukraine, Kiev, with a population of almost 3 million, is under attack. Musk was highly critical of Russia. Scrolling through his then-Twitter account, I think you saw this really big emotional response from Elon Musk. And I think you saw, you know, a sense of outrage. You saw a sense of compassion for the Ukrainians. and some really big emotional tweets, like kind of telling the Ukrainians to hold on.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: At one point, Musk went so far as to challenge Putin personally to a fight. You know, a man-on-man fight for, as he put it, Ukraina, which is the Ukrainian language named for Ukraine Musk didn just support Ukraine with his words He also provided one of its most critical battlefield resources, internet access. Musk donated several hundred Starlink terminals to Ukraine.
--:-- Thomas Grove: One of the biggest problems on the battlefield, potentially for Ukraine and for Russia, is communications. And so, you know, for Ukraine to have this competitive advantage of having this kind of very secure, very reliable communications method. I mean, it really changes the way you can, you know, command and control is carried out on the battlefield. And I think that was, you know, up until earlier this year, it was a huge advantage that the Ukrainians had over the Russians.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: But over the course of 2022, Musk's public position on Ukraine started to change. And that's when you start to see, at least in the tweets, a real shift in what he's writing in his posts about the conflict. Because it's not just about Ukraine anymore. You know, he's talking about Russia, and he's talking about, you know, Russia's point of view and taking the Russian position into consideration. And so he starts to talk about, you know, the threat of nuclear war. He talks about the dangers of Russia all-out mobilizing.
--:-- Thomas Grove: In September of 2022, Ukraine tried to use Starlink terminals for an attack on a Russian naval base in Crimea. But the plan failed. They wouldn't work around Crimea. Musk had basically decided that they weren't going to support Starlink around Crimea. Musk later said he declined a request to activate Starlink in the area because he didn't want SpaceX to be complicit in a major act of war and conflict escalation. The decision sparked huge backlash. Ukrainian and other foreign officials accused Musk of siding with Russia.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: After the journal's story about Musk and Putin published SpaceX said in a post on X That Starlink had kept Ukrainians online during the conflict It added that Starlink has defended against efforts to disrupt service In October of 2022 Musk tweeted a proposed peace plan Which included having Ukraine remain neutral outside of NATO And cede Crimea to Russia And he called the Soviet leader Khrushchev, his gifting of Crimea to Ukraine, under the Soviet Union, a mistake. Which is sort of like Russia's point of view and Putin's point of view, essentially, that like Ukraine and particularly the Crimea region is like, that belongs to Russia.
--:-- Thomas Grove: Musk has previously called criticism that he's an apologist for Putin as, quote, absurd. He said his companies have, quote, done more to undermine Russia than anything. Around the same time he tweeted that peace plan, in October 2022, Musk said that he had spoken with Putin before, but just once. He said it had taken place more than a year and a half earlier, and that the conversation was about space. But as Tom and our colleagues have learned, Musk and Putin have actually been in regular contact over the past two years.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: So let's talk about these conversations that you learned about between Musk and Putin. How often were they taking place and how secretive were they?
--:-- Thomas Grove: Yeah, sure. You know, we understand that they were happening relatively regularly from 2022 up until this year. And what are they talking about? So we understand that they're talking about geopolitics, right? That's something that Musk is obviously interested in. They're talking about business. And there's even been some kind of personal back and forth as well.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: There was one exchange that really stood out. And it had to do with Taiwan, which China sees as part of its territory. A former Russian intelligence official briefed on the situation, told the journal that Putin had a request. According to the source, Russia had tried to do a favor for China basically tried to do a favor for Beijing to say just make sure that Starlink is never turned on over Taiwan And so that was one of the most specific pieces of information from the calls that we were aware of It unclear how Musk responded to Putin request SpaceX said on Friday that Taiwan hasn't given Starlink a license to operate and that Taiwan has declined to remove a regulatory hurdle for operations. SpaceX said the fact that it doesn't operate there has, quote, nothing to do with Russia and China.
--:-- Thomas Grove: A representative of the Chinese embassy in Washington said they weren't aware of the specifics and couldn't comment. And what has the Kremlin and Putin said? Well, the Kremlin said that there's been one call between the two, that they spoke about space, talk about science, now and in the future. The Kremlin also said neither Putin nor Kremlin officials were holding regular conversations with Musk.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: Why would contact between Musk and Russia be concerning to U.S. officials? That's next.
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--:-- Ryan Knudsen: So rich and powerful people have conversations with world leaders all the time. So why is this a big deal? That's a really important point that, you know, the rich and the powerful do talk to the rich and powerful quite a bit. I think what is interesting about these contacts is the fact that Musk is somebody who the United States government relies on to provide absolutely unique technology that helps NASA. It helps provide internet to soldiers around the world. I mean, he has, you know, a really unique insight into what's happening in the United States and abroad.
--:-- Thomas Grove: And we have on the other end of the line, somebody who has been trained as a KGB agent, somebody who has a very specific interest in undermining the United States, both abroad and at home. Musk has forged deep business ties with the U.S. military and intelligence agencies. That's granted him some unique access to sensitive space programs. SpaceX, which operates the Starlink service, won a $1.8 billion classified contract in 2021. And SpaceX is the primary rocket launcher for the Pentagon and NASA.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: All of that allows Musk to have access to certain classified information. Here's Musk earlier this month at a rally in Philadelphia for former President Donald Trump. I mean, I do have a top-secret clearance, but I have to say, like, most of the stuff that I'm aware of, a top-secret, like, the reason to keep a top-secret is because it's so boring. A Pentagon spokesman said the Department of Defense doesn't comment on individual security clearances.
--:-- Thomas Grove: How important is Musk and his companies to the United States and its sort of national security? Well, I mean, Musk inhabits this completely unique space. I mean, because of the ingenuity of the technology, because there's simply no, you know, analog for a lot of it. SpaceX is one of the companies that is helping get U.S. astronauts to the International Space Station. He has this incredibly important place for the United States government in terms of maintaining the reach that it has you know around the world and in space
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: A source who is aware of the conversations said no alerts have been raised by the Biden administration over possible security breaches by Musk. But the source also added, quote, they don't love it. From the U.S. government's point of view, what they could worry about is the potential passing on of sensitive information, or, you know, even just in a candid moment, perhaps slipping up and giving to the Russians, to Putin or to intermediaries, you know, something that should be kept closer to our chests.
--:-- Thomas Grove: What would be in it for Putin to talk to Elon Musk? Vladimir Putin is somebody who has a very instinctive sense of where power lies. and being the richest man in the world, being the United States' most powerful and influential businessman, those are all very important. And I think, you know, talking to somebody who has a social media network the size of X, it's very important. In February, former Fox News host Tucker Carlson aired a video interview with Putin on Musk's platform X. Putin certainly had some things to say about Musk. and in his interview with Tucker Carlson, you know, caught him a very smart man.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: Well, I think there's no stopping Elon Musk. He will do as he sees fit. Nevertheless, you need to find some common ground with him, search for ways to persuade him. He said that he's somebody that, you know, you basically just have to make a deal with. He's going to do whatever he wants regardless. and pointed to this real kind of outsized determination, this larger-than-life figure. And he basically said, you can't discount him. You've got to make a deal with him.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: On Friday, NASA Administrator Bill Nelson responded to the journal's reporting. If the story is true that there have been multiple conversations between Elon Musk and the president of Russia, then I think that would be concerning.
--:-- Thomas Grove: I think that's a really important point. That's why it would be so good to understand these communications better, because there could potentially be very interesting upsides to this, including whether or not the U.S. gains any intelligence benefit from this, from him talking to the Russians.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: The topic is highly sensitive, partly due to Musk's increasing involvement in the Trump campaign and the approaching U.S. presidential election, Trump has talked about giving Musk a role in his administration.
--:-- Thomas Grove: So after reporting this story for eight months, what questions do you still have? I mean, my main takeaway from this story is that there's just so many more questions to ask. Just understanding the fundamentals of what's happening at the moment, what has happened over the last several years, I think it's really important to understand exactly, you know, for ourselves, and exactly what the contours and limits of these conversations are. And as I said, are there dangers or there could be benefits that we're just not aware of.
--:-- Ryan Knudsen: That's all for today. Monday, October 28th. The Journal is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal. Additional reporting in this episode by Gordon Lubold, Sam Schechner, Warren Strobel, and Aruna Vishwanatha. Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.
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