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--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Jessica Mendoza. It's Friday, November 22nd.
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--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): The past few days have been pretty wild for our colleague Sadie Gurman. She covers the Justice Department and has for the last seven years. In the annals of my experience covering the Justice Department, even this one was a bit of a crazy week.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: We started the week investigating sexual misconduct allegations against Trump's first attorney general pick, Matt Gaetz. And every day, there was just this drip, drip, drip of bad news about Matt Gaetz. For years, the lawyer and former Florida congressman has faced allegations of sexual misconduct and drug use, allegations that he's denied.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): But with Gaetz poised to head a powerful federal department, concerns about those allegations grew. And yesterday—
--:-- Sadie Gurman: You know, maybe around noon, I just hear people start shouting, Gaetz is out, Gaetz is out. Oh my gosh. And so, you know, then that sort of started this long rolling day.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Gates's withdrawal was a hit to President-elect Donald Trump, who sees the job of attorney general as one of the most important roles in his new administration.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: The DOJ Department of, I call it the Department of Injustice. I will direct a completely overhauled DOJ to investigate every radical, out-of-control prosecutor in America for their illegal racist and reverse enforcement of the law. Because they're using the Department of Justice to rig the campaign.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): The attorney general pick has been Trump's number one personnel priority. And he has long considered this remaking the Justice Department one of his central issues in his agenda.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: Now, Trump has a new pick to lead the department. Former Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi. Bondi is somebody who's been by Trump's side from the very beginning. She's had a close personal relationship with Trump for years, and she served on his legal team during his first impeachment.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): So I think that, you know, Trump sees that as somebody who might be a good attorney general.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Welcome back to The Journal. Coming up on the show, Trump's bid to reshape the Justice Department. Matt Gaetz is out. Pam Bondi is in. Why shop at Burlington? Maybe it's the deals that are new each time you drop by. Maybe it's the brand names you'll be shocked Burlington has in store. Or maybe it's the quality of the items, the amazing selection, and the newest trends.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Welcome back to The Journal. So Donald Trump is president-elect. You know, he's been making a bunch of cabinet and department head picks. Where does the job of attorney general kind of rank generally?
--:-- Sadie Gurman: It's one of the most important jobs. It sort of a unique cabinet role in that this attorney general is supposed to work toward advancing the president's political agenda just as other cabinet secretaries. But they also supposed to be independent and shield their investigations from political interference.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): So this person kind of plays a dual role, and it's been important in any administration. But it's been especially important to Trump because of his long, strained relationship with the Justice Department.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: That strained relationship goes back to Trump's first term. When he was frustrated, the department didn't always go along with his agenda. Take his first attorney general, Jeff Sessions.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Well, Sessions, very early on in his tenure, recused himself from an investigation into Trump campaign ties to Russian interference in the 2016 election.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: And Trump just viewed that as the original sin, and their relationship was never the same after that, because that took him out of direct oversight of the investigation.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): And then for his second attorney general, he chose William Barr, who was viewed early on as an establishment conservative, but really did go to bat for Trump and was a defender of him, in particular, a skeptic of the investigations into him.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: But as his time in office drew to a close, he refused to go along with Trump's allegations of widespread voter fraud and refused to say publicly that the Justice Department had found any such fraud.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): And so that put him ultimately at odds with the president.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: And those are the types of incidents that Trump doesn't want to see a repeat of. Trump does not want to see a repeat of this.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): He is like openly railed against these two and just bashed them ever since then.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: So he's been looking for somebody who will be a little more malleable. And so he initially picked former Florida Congressman Matt Gaetz.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Why him? What did he see in Matt Gaetz?
--:-- Sadie Gurman: Well, Matt Gaetz was certainly among the most sharpest critics of the Justice Department on the Hill. He sat on the House Judiciary Committee, which has oversight of the Justice Department.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): And he used that perch to rail against the FBI, to accuse Attorney General Merrick Garland and other officials of targeting Trump for political purposes and unfairly targeting conservatives.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: And he was sort of this face of the anti-DOJ. That was one reason Gates was controversial among his colleagues on the Hill.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): So when he was nominated? It was shocking. It was shocking across party lines.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: On the Hill, Republicans very early on expressed doubts that he would be able to be confirmed, like Senator Lisa Markowski.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): And, you know, like she said, Gates was not on her bingo card.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: But we even saw some early skepticism from people like Senator John Cornyn, who has sided with Trump a number of times.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): So that was the striking thing.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: And inside the Justice Department, people were just kind of freaking out about this prospect.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): People who were even open-minded to the possibility of some of Trump's other picks were very, very concerned about the possibility that Gates would become attorney general.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: And even some legal conservatives that I talked to who had been looking for jobs in the Justice Department were rethinking their decision and trying to stay away from that.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): That's so interesting. So they were just like, I don't know about this. I'm going to wait and see how this all comes out.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: Yeah. I mean, the messages, the text messages that I was getting as soon as that was announced were like, well, I don't want to work for this guy.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): One thing loomed over Gates's nomination. He had been under investigation.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: In 2020, the Justice Department had looked into whether Gates had engaged in sex trafficking a minor.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Gates denied wrongdoing, and the Justice Department ultimately chose not to pursue charges.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: But the accusations prompted the House Ethics Committee to launch its own investigation.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): The committee conducted its investigation behind closed doors.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: When Trump announced Gates as his pick for attorney general, many members of Congress wanted the committee report to be made public.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): But Gates resigned from his seat to pursue the attorney general nomination.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: And since he was no longer a member of Congress, House Republicans said that the report would not be released. Though there still a possibility it could be.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Still, details from the report became public this week, including some of the accusations made in testimony.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: According to a lawyer for a witness, his client told the panel she saw Gates having sex with a 17-year-old girl at a party in 2017.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): And she, along with another woman, testified that Gates had paid them for sex.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: Gates has long denied ever having sex with a minor as an adult or paying for sex.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): And he said, quote, Every investigation into me ends the same way, my exoneration.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: Some senators had continued to call for the report to be released and met with Gates to talk.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): But then yesterday, he withdrew from consideration.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: He posted that his candidacy for AG had become a necessary distraction, and he didn't want to put Trump through that.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): And so when he withdrew, what did Trump say? What did that mean for Trump?
--:-- Sadie Gurman: Well, that gave Trump another chance to go back to the drawing board.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): He had already assembled a list of people that he had been looking at, and he chose very, very quickly, within hours, he chose Pam Bondi.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: After the break, what we know about Pam Bondi.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Welcome back to The Journal. So who is Pam Bondi? What do we know about her?
--:-- Sadie Gurman: Well, Bondi, much like Gates, is steeped in Florida Republican politics.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): She served two terms as attorney general of Florida, and she later took up lobbying for a firm that had close ties to Trump called Ballard Partners.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: She also recently worked behind the scenes at a Trump-aligned legal group called America First Policy Institute.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): She represented him during his 2019 impeachment, which centered on whether he sought political favors from Ukraine.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: Right. And during this time, she was a very vocal defender of him.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): She took to the Senate floor as part of his legal team and delivered this sort of scathing speech about Hunter Biden's relationship with a Ukrainian energy company.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: Hunter Biden's decision to join Burisma raised flags almost immediately. One article from May 2014 stated the appointment of Joe Biden's son to the board of Ukrainian gas firm Burisma has raised eyebrows the world over.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): She's also been very vocal on television in support of Trump.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: There's no legal justification for anything they're saying because President Trump did nothing wrong.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): That's why they all have to get together. It's absolutely absurd what's happening.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: And that the kind of thing Trump wants to see in his attorney general.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): How does she compare to Gates as a nominee for attorney general?
--:-- Sadie Gurman: She certainly has a more traditional resume than Gates.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): You know, having worked as a line prosecutor, she will have something in common with the people that she leads if she's confirmed.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: But yet she's similar to Gates in that she's also this fierce ally and this loyalist who is made clear that she's willing to do what Trump wants at DOJ, just like Gates.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): So how have Republican senators responded to this new pick?
--:-- Sadie Gurman: The reaction from Senate Republicans has been much more optimistic and much more favorable.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): One Republican referred to her as the next attorney general.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: And Lindsey Graham of South Carolina called her a grand slam, touchdown, hole-in-one, ace, hat-trick, slam-dunk, Olympic gold medal pick.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): So that's a far cry from what we saw the first time.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: Is there a sense that Bondi might have an easier path to confirmation than Matt Gaetz?
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Yes, I think that's definitely true.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: That's not to say that she doesn't have anything that would be questionable in her background.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): One thing that might be scrutinized is the extent of Bondi's ties to Trump.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: In 2013, Trump gave a $25,000 donation to a PAC that was supporting Bondi's re-election campaign for Florida Attorney General.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): That kind of donation isn't usually that notable, but the timing of it might raise eyebrows.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: Just days before that donation was made, Bondi was reviewing allegations in a fraud lawsuit about Trump University.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): She was trying to decide if she would join the suit.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: Ultimately, she decided not to, and she's denied any connection between the donation and the decision.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Is it likely that this will come up during the Senate confirmation hearings?
--:-- Sadie Gurman: I think this is going to be one of the first things that comes up during her confirmation hearings.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): It was certainly the first thing that everybody was talking about yesterday.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: So I expect we might learn a little bit more about that.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): What do we know about what the Justice Department would look like under Pam Bondi?
--:-- Sadie Gurman: Well, historically, the attorney general has been somebody who, you know, sort of keeps this arm's length relationship from the White House, supports the president, but keeps details of investigations, secrets, and, you know, doesn't cave to any sort of political pressure to do the White House's bidding.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): But I think that if Pam Bondi were in charge of the Justice Department, we would see that relationship grow a little bit closer.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: I think we would have somebody who, you know, is in frequent communication with Trump and might be more comfortable acting on some of his requests.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): She's a loyalist. She's shown a willingness to do the kinds of things he wants.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: That's all the kinds of things that Trump has been looking for in an attorney general and things that he didn't necessarily get out of his first two attorneys general in his first term.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): That's all for today, Friday, November 22nd.
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--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): The Journal is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: Additional reporting in this episode by C. Ryan Barber.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): The show is made by Catherine Brewer, Jonathan Davis, Pia Gudkari, Rachel Humphreys, Ryan Knudsen, Matt Kwong, Kate Linebaugh, Annie Minoff, Laura Morris, Enrique Perez de la Rosa, Sarah Platt, Alessandra Rizzo, Alan Rodriguez Espinosa, Heather Rogers, Pierre Singhi, Jivika Verma, Lisa Wang, Catherine Whalen, Tatiana Zamis, and me, Jessica Mendoza.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: With help from Trina Menino.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Our engineers are Griffin Tanner, Nathan Singapok, and Peter Leonard.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: Our theme music is by So Wiley.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Additional music this week from Peter Leonard, Bobby Lord, Nathan Singapok, Griffin Tanner, So Wiley, and Blue Dot Sessions.
--:-- Sadie Gurman: Fact-checking by Mary Mathis.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Thanks for listening. See you on Monday.
