--:-- [Theme music fades out]
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: I'm Ryan Knutson.
--:-- Jessica Mendoza: And I'm Jessica Mendoza.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Today, we're talking about James Bond.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: James Bond is one of Hollywood's most famous characters.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: So when Amazon bought the rights to distribute Bond, executives had big plans for the brand's intellectual property.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: But so far, Amazon hasn't made a single Bond movie.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: WSJ's Eric Schwartzel takes us inside the feud that's tying up the franchise.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: Yes, my name is Eric Schwartzel. I am a reporter in the Los Angeles Bureau of the Journal.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: Didn't you mean to say Schwartzel? Eric Schwartzel.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Welcome, Eric. Let's start with the basics. James Bond was invented by the British author Ian Fleming.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: That's right. The James Bond character was invented by the British author Ian Fleming, who wrote a series of books about him.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Eventually, a film agent named Albert Broccoli, a.k.a. Cubby Broccoli, secured the rights to make James Bond movies.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: That's right. A film agent named Albert Broccoli, a.k.a. Cubby Broccoli, secured the rights to make James Bond movies.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: The first film, Dr. No, was released in 1962.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: Then, of course, the rest is history. I mean, Sean Connery is cast as the first 007, And really, almost every other year or so, we start to see a new James Bond movie.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Throughout the decades, Cubby Broccoli shepherded the James Bond franchise, from Sean Connery to Roger Moore to Timothy Dalton.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: Then, in the 1990s, his daughter Barbara Broccoli and stepson Michael Wilson inherited the Bond movies.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And so the first film under their auspices was GoldenEye.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: Need I remind you, 007, that you have a license to kill, not to break the traffic laws.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: I wouldn't think of it. Good.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: So it was the first one starring Pierce Brosnan as 007 spawned an incredibly popular video game.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Spent a lot of time playing that as a kid.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: An all-time N64 hit.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Uh-huh.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: And then also kind of brought Bond into this kind of blockbuster era where these movies were massive events, massive spectacles.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And after the Brosnan era ended, Daniel Craig comes on and the films get yet bigger and even more global.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: There have been 27 James Bond movies that have generated a total of billion at the box office.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: According to Eric reporting nowadays Barbara Broccoli is the main steward of the Bond franchise.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: Her stepbrother is 82 and nearing retirement. Barbara Broccoli is 64.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: She was born in Los Angeles but raised in London and has been working on the set of Bond films since she was a teenager.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: Once Barbara Broccoli takes control of the James Bond franchise, how would you describe what she's like as a producer?
--:-- Ryan Knutson: So I talked to folks who worked with her in several capacities and to a person they all said, you know, Barbara Broccoli is one of those names that a lot of people outside of Hollywood have never heard.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: But when it comes to the Bond franchise, she is the keeper of the kingdom.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And that goes to decisions big and small.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: So she decides, along with others in her family, who will play Bond.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And she really prides herself on having that kind of gut instinct.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: Because Bond is often played by an actor who is previously a relative unknown in the industry.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And it's very obvious to anyone who comes close to this franchise that whatever idea you have, whether you're a director or whether you are a licensing partner, whatever idea you have, it's going to go through Barbara.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: I talked to people who worked on set with her who described it almost as kind of a, like a den mother mentality.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: She really will, everything from like individual lines of dialogue to managing relationships between the director and the crew.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: While the Broccoli's produced the Bond films and owned the creative rights, the MGM studio has been the primary distributor.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And in 2022, Amazon, which has been trying to establish more of a presence in Hollywood, bought MGM for $6.5 billion.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: For Amazon, this gave it access to a lot of well-known IP.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Titles like Rocky, Legally Blonde, and The Pink Panther.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: And importantly, James Bond.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Amazon has this streaming service, Prime Video, and every streaming service needs an almost endless repository of programming to fill with it.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: And so they absorb MGM, and with that absorption comes the right to distribute James Bond films.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: James Bond is kind of seen as the crown jewel of the MGM library that Amazon has absorbed.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: Eric says Amazon executives were licking their chops about what they could do with the storied character.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Before the deal closed, Amazon executives got together and started brainstorming just what they might be able to do with Bond in their ecosystem.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: And they thought maybe should there be spinoffs?
--:-- Ryan Knutson: You know, there are like all these other characters like Moneypenny who could serve as the basis of their own shows.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: There was conversations around maybe a female 007 starring on a TV show.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Really, just the kind of like brainstorming that I think any executive team would do when they have this really famous asset coming into the tent.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: But when Amazon bought MGM, remember, it only got the rights to distribute Bond movies.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Creative control still belonged to the Broccoli's.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: And so far, Amazon and Broccoli haven't been able to agree on almost anything for the future of James Bond.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And so how would you say, like, in a word or two, that this tie-up between the Broccoli family and Amazon has been going so far?
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: Terribly.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: It is an incredibly fraught situation.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: I mean, the relationship has really frayed.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: You know, this was one thing that I will say became pretty clear in the course of reporting this story.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: I always strive for nuance in my reporting, but on that question, the answer was pretty black and white.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Which is that Barbara Broccoli has told many friends that she thinks the people at Amazon are f***ing idiots.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: That's after the break.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Optimism isn't sunshine and rainbows.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: It's fixing things.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Changing things.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Changing the way we fix things.
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--:-- Ryan Knutson: Growing power to meet growing needs.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Working to run the world on smarter energy every day.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Taking power where the grid's never been.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Then getting up and doing it again.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Because if optimism never stops, then change can't either.
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--:-- Ryan Knutson: To understand why the relationship is so tense between Barbara Broccoli, who controls the creative rights to James Bond and Amazon which controls the distribution rights.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: Eric and another colleague talked to more than 20 people familiar with the feud including executives business partners and friends.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: So why does Barbara Broccoli believe that Amazon executives are, I guess, just a quote from the second part of that, idiots?
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: To keep it PG-13?
--:-- Ryan Knutson: I would say, you know, I think it's a combination of things.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: I think there has been skepticism from the jump that Amazon is the right place for a Hollywood property like this.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And then I think since then, there have been times where she feels as though those concerns have been validated in how the company has approached working with her and what she can imagine working with them on any Bond film would be like.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: The relationship started breaking down almost from the start.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And it comes down to what Eric described earlier as a difference in visions between the old Hollywood of Bond and MGM and the new Hollywood of Amazon.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: There have been a few situations where the vibes have been off and where it seems as though there's a philosophical difference between how the Broccoli's approach moviemaking and how Amazon does.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And this was really typified for me in a story I heard about a conversation that was had between Barbara Broccoli and Jen Salke, who is Amazon's top entertainment executive here in L.A.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: And it was early in their relationship, and Jen Salke referred to Bond as, quote, content.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Right, which for people in the creative world, the word content is a little bit loaded because it doesn't necessarily connote the kind of gravity that comes with the art that a lot of people feel like they're creating.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: Art, storytelling, right, exactly.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And this was a story that was almost recited like a fable by Barbara to other people as symbolic of the gulf between Amazon's approach and her approach.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: Which is that Bond, this character who her family has shepherded and mythologized, is referred to by this sterile, transactional term of content.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: I think it serves as this very harsh reminder to people in Hollywood that the shows and movies that they work so hard on are being treated as these assets to be shoved into the piping.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: Another thing about Amazon that caused Broccoli to recoil is the company's desire to mine the James Bond IP for spinoffs.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: The Broccoli family feels as though one reason James Bond has had the longevity it has as a franchise is its scarcity.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: James Bond really only exists as theatrical movies that are released every few years.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And so there is always been a reflexive skepticism toward anyone who wants to do anything more saturated than that.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: I mean, there have been people who have approached them with so many ideas over the years for Bond TV shows.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: There was even a potential Bond casino that was floated at one point.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: And the response is always, you know, no, this has stayed special for a reason, and part of that reason is scarcity.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: This difference in approach is making it hard for Broccoli and Amazon to make important decisions about the franchise, like picking a new Bond.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: The most recent Bond, Daniel Craig, has hung up his tuxedo after five movies, and he won't be in any more films.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And so Barbara Broccoli has said many times that casting Bond is often a gut decision.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: She's equated it to choosing a spouse.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: It's something you know.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: It's something you just, you don't sort of look to facts or figures to confirm.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: It's a gut instinct.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: But Amazon is not the sort of place that runs on gut instincts.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Rather, the company loves making decisions based on data.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: And some people I spoke to who've worked at Amazon said the idea of casting such a giant role with an unknown actor with no track record is the kind of risk that a studio like Amazon isn't built to make.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: From Amazon's perspective, Broccoli has been unfair.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And Amazon has been waiting for her to make decisions to get the franchise going again.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: But because the two sides can't see eye to eye, everything has ground to a halt.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: It's been three years since the last movie came out.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: And so as recently as last month, I was told Barbara Broccoli was describing the status as no script, no story, no bond.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: That sounds like a long way off from having another movie.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: It does, yeah.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And things can turn a corner and then move very quickly from there.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: But I just think that a lot of people now know that this is a very tense situation with very little idea of where to go from here.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Eric says this might become the longest stretch between movies since the franchise came out more than 60 years ago.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: So one concern people have is, you know, if Bond goes away for too long, will it be hard to rev up that engine of interest again.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Some people also think, though, that scarcity can be a good thing and disappearing for a while will only sort of cause the appetite for Bond to grow.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: I think the concern for those working on the franchise today is that there no progress in any direction.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Eric says Barbara Broccoli doesn seem to be too concerned.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: The family has worked with different distributors over James Bond life and they planning to pass control down to the next generation.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And so she really seems to think that people will come and go.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: The priority has to be making sure Bond lives forever.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And there's this quote of her father's that she often recites whenever she's faced with a situation like she is now, where there's a new partner in town like Amazon.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: And she says, never let people in temporary positions of power make permanent decisions.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And it really, I think, crystallizes what she sees as a mythic project that can't be concerned about who's in the executive chair this week or what quarterly returns will satisfy investors.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: So if a James Bond movie doesn't come out soon, who do you think it would hurt more?
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: I think James Bond is probably fine no matter what happens.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: He seems to have proven his immortality.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: The franchise, the franchise.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: I think, you know, it's this fascinating dynamic because the two sides have very different things to lose.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And for the Broccoli's, it's this family inheritance that they've been charged with taking care of, right?
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: So there is a lot of emotional baggage there.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: But there's also real financial concerns, too, because they need to keep that franchise engine running to support their company and to support all of the Bond employees.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: Now, Amazon, of course, I think they'll survive if they don't have a new James Bond movie in the next few years.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: I mean, the total of the MGM acquisition overall amounts to a rounding error in their annual revenues.
--:-- Eric Schwartzel: But I think for a company that is trying so hard to recast itself in Hollywood as not the big bad content machine, but instead as a new kind of Studio 2.0, this is a real black eye because it's the highest profile example of the goods that they have.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: But it's also the highest profile example of how they can work with that old Hollywood approach.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And so far, it's not yielding any good outcome.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: That's all for today.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Friday, December 20th.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Additional reporting in this episode by Jessica Tungel.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: This is the last new episode from us this year.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: So I wanted to take the opportunity to reflect with a song.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Just kidding.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Come on.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Do it.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: What are you, Kate, Jess, what are you guys doing here?
--:-- Ryan Knutson: We just wanted to, like, be here for this moment and wish everybody a happy end to this year.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And a happy beginning to 2025.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Oh, my God.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Well, it has been such a wild year.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: We've covered everything from global conflicts to the Stanley Cup fad, to inflation, to the election, to the return of Abercrombie and Fitch.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: So many stories.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And so much love from our listeners.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: We asked you over and over to send in your story ideas and questions, and we got so many responses.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: We've read them all, right, guys?
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Oh, yeah.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Every single one.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Love them.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Love them so much.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: So thank you all for listening to us in 2024.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: It was such a great year.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: We hope you'll be back with us when we start another year of episodes on January 2nd, 2025.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Well, should we do the credits now?
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Yeah.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: All right.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: The Journal is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: The show is made by Katherine Brewer, Jonathan Davis, Pia Gadkari, Rachel Humphries, Ryan Knutson, Matt Kwong, Kate Leinbaugh, Annie Minhoff, Laura Morris, Enrique Perez de la Reilly.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: With help from Trina Menino.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Our engineers are Griffin Tanner, Nathan Singapak, and Peter Leonard.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Our theme music is by So Wiley, and remixed for this episode by Peter Leonard.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Additional music this week from Catherine Anderson, Peter Leonard, Bobby Lord, Emma Munger, Nathan Singapok, Griffin Tanner, and Blue Dot Sessions.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Fact-checking by Mary Mathis and Kate Gallagher.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: See you in 2025.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Okay, so can I actually sing a song now?
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Are you going to sing?
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Please do.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Only if you sing with me.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: I'll sing with you.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: What are we singing?
--:-- Ryan Knutson: We wish you a Merry Christmas
--:-- Ryan Knutson: We wish you a Merry Christmas
--:-- Ryan Knutson: We wish you a Merry Christmas
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And a Happy New Year
--:-- Ryan Knutson: We better stick to podcasting
--:-- Ryan Knutson: I think so
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Yeah, good idea
--:-- Ryan Knutson: I did it!
--:-- Ryan Knutson: I got you to sing on the podcast
--:-- Ryan Knutson: You did, you're right
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Actually, this is, your long con has paid off
--:-- Ryan Knutson: No lyrics though
--:-- Ryan Knutson: But it still counts
--:-- Ryan Knutson: I don't know if I
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Helps, I don't think
--:-- Ryan Knutson: There are lyrics to that theme song
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Yeah, that's what I mean
--:-- Ryan Knutson: But how does that song in Wicked go that you like?
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Yeah, funny, funny, funny
