--:-- [Sound of a podcast intro]
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Jessica Mendoza.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): It's Wednesday, February 12th. Coming up on the show, Love is Blind and the Reality TV Reckoning.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): The question you'll be asking yourself is, why go anywhere else? Brompton. Deals. Brands. Wow. Tuesday on NBC. Jimmy Fallon and Bozema St. John host the highly anticipated new competition show.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): I hired 10 creatives from all walks of life. They will be battling it out to see who can impress the world's biggest brands. This is a huge opportunity. This is the battle for the next big idea. This is not Play Play. We're spending millions of dollars.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): I'm so excited to embark on this adventure with all of you. Make the best idea win! On Brand with Jimmy Fallon. Series premiere Tuesday on NBC.
--:-- Nick Thompson: Oh, my life before Love is Blind was pretty good. I was, at the time, at a software company. I had bought my own condo here in Chicago. I had a cute dog. I had so many things going for me, but I really was missing someone to share it with.
--:-- Nick Thompson: Nick had never really thought that he'd find his way to love through a dating show. But then, in the fall of 2020, he got a DM on LinkedIn, of all places. Love is Blind is a dating show where each cast member tries to find the love of their life without actually setting eyes on them first.
--:-- Nick Thompson: The series hit it big in season one during lockdown. And I'm not a big reality show fan, but even I binged that with my roommates back then.
--:-- Nick Thompson: When Nick first heard from the show, it was recruiting for its second season. The premise of Love is Blind is actually very true to the title of the show.
--:-- Nick Thompson: There's 15 men and 15 women, and you speed date with one another in these things called the pods, where you can talk to one another, but you cannot see each other.
--:-- Nick Thompson: And then over the course of a couple of weeks, you narrow that down. And if you agree to get engaged, then you get to see them the next day for the first time, making a decision on the last day if you want to get married at the altar.
--:-- Nick Thompson: It's kind of an incredible premise. Why did you agree to join in the end?
--:-- Nick Thompson: I was a believer in the concept. You know, there were some success stories that came out of it, and I was like, maybe this could work for me.
--:-- Nick Thompson: Like I felt, you know, this is a good way to get to know someone and not have the distractions of work and endless opportunities on Dating App.
--:-- Nick Thompson: There's 15 people, and if one of them works out, great. And I kind of got myself in the mindset of, if it's day one and I'm not connecting with anyone, I'm fine going home.
--:-- Nick Thompson: Nick ended up getting cast on that second season. According to his contract, he'd be paid $1,000 for every week he was on the show.
--:-- Nick Thompson: The series would film for about eight weeks. So in April 2021, Nick took time off work and flew down to L.A., where they started taping.
--:-- Nick Thompson: So the first day you get there, you give up your phone, you give up your suitcase. They go through your suitcase, all that stuff.
--:-- Nick Thompson: Oh, wow. Okay. I had a smartwatch. They took my smartwatch. Your IDs, passports? Oh, yeah. IDs, passports, all of it.
--:-- Nick Thompson: So you really don't have access to any of that. Getting cut off like this is pretty standard for a reality show, to keep cast members from being influenced by the outside world.
--:-- Nick Thompson: They also typically sign nondisclosure agreements. Despite that, Nick was excited to be there.
--:-- Nick Thompson: Then when you get there to that set, I do remember being like, wow, this is Hollywood. It's a very big set, sound studio.
--:-- Nick Thompson: There's basically two sides. On those two sides, there's a male side and a female side. There's some snacks in there. Most of the time, alcohol, of course.
--:-- Michael Carroll: I'm 54. Oh, I can't believe it. And I'm a former reality television producer. Now I work in meetings.
--:-- Michael Carroll: Michael worked for nine seasons on ABC's The Bachelor, one of the OG reality dating shows.
--:-- Michael Carroll: He says that a lot of what Nick described on Love is Blind is baked into the DNA of reality TV.
--:-- Michael Carroll: And that's in part because the producers are trying to make the best TV as quickly as possible.
--:-- Michael Carroll: That's what he said happened on The Bachelor. This was a show about dating and finding the love of your life and potentially getting married.
--:-- Michael Carroll: So everything is directed towards that direction. Not necessarily always pushing, but guiding. Nudging.
--:-- Michael Carroll: Yeah, nudging to keep them within the guide rails and on the street of where we're going.
--:-- Michael Carroll: And a lot of time, it was asking them exactly, asking them the question that I wanted to hear back.
--:-- Michael Carroll: Because that made it very simple, direct, and expeditious for me to get what I wanted. Otherwise, we'd have been watching paint dry for 24 hours, and we'd have been like, we got nothing today, you know?
--:-- Michael Carroll: So the directive was like, make good TV. Make good TV, absolutely.
--:-- Michael Carroll: Yeah, don't waste your time.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): We talked to Nick Thompson from Love is Blind, and he was saying, you know, he also felt like he wasn't getting enough sleep. They weren't like feeding them enough.
--:-- Michael Carroll: There was alcohol on set. Does that sound familiar to you?
--:-- Michael Carroll: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we always said that alcohol was like true serum. And it is.
--:-- Michael Carroll: You know, people's inhibitions go away most of the time. They're a little more apt to speak their mind and to say what they feel.
--:-- Michael Carroll: And it'd probably be a little more emotional when there's alcohol involved.
--:-- Michael Carroll: And yes, there were times they probably should have been fed more, but that was not from us saying let's starve them.
--:-- Michael Carroll: It was from us staying on a schedule. Because if we start shooting something specific, we're going to stop for cheeseburgers. It's not going to happen.
--:-- Michael Carroll: Were there ever concerns about how cast members were feeling on set or dealing with their environment?
--:-- Michael Carroll: Yes, because you're a compassionate human being and we all weren't like evil people.
--:-- Michael Carroll: But after doing it season after seasons, I started to go, okay, this is, you know, there's times that I'm really messing with these girls and I'm really kind of like manipulating and tricking them.
--:-- Michael Carroll: So there were times that I really started to feel it for them.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Representatives for The Bachelor did not respond to our requests for comment.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Back to Nick Thompson. On Love is Blind, he was finding the relationship he hoped for.
--:-- Nick Thompson: I was like, what if he doesn't think I'm cute? Of course I think you're cute.
--:-- Nick Thompson: And at the end of the show, Nick and Danielle decided to get married.
--:-- Nick Thompson: My fiancé. I love you. I love you too.
--:-- Nick Thompson: After their wedding, filming ended. And they went home.
--:-- Nick Thompson: But the show wouldn't air for another eight months.
--:-- Nick Thompson: And as part of the contract they'd signed, the couple had to keep their marriage quiet.
--:-- Nick Thompson: NDAs like this are common because production companies want to contain leaks.
--:-- Nick Thompson: During those eight months, the relationship between Nick and Danielle didn't go so well.
--:-- Nick Thompson: And just a little over a year after their wedding, the two filed for divorce.
--:-- Nick Thompson: It's kind of crazy when you look back on it and be like, I married someone after seven weeks in a highly controlled environment for most of the time.
--:-- Nick Thompson: It was around the time of the divorce that Nick also lost his job.
--:-- Nick Thompson: His employer said it was part of a planned round of layoffs, but Nick felt that Love is Blind had played a role.
--:-- Nick Thompson: And finding a new job was a struggle. I had a pretty good resume. I had a lot of experience, and I started having job interviews.
--:-- Nick Thompson: And the topic of discussion became the show. It was no longer about my experience.
--:-- Nick Thompson: It always came down to you were on this show and there was always some sort of reason as to why that wasn't going to work for them.
--:-- Nick Thompson: What did life look like for you at that time?
--:-- Nick Thompson: This is the darkest time of my entire life.
--:-- Nick Thompson: The divorce obviously was hard.
--:-- Nick Thompson: And I think people think because they watched it on TV and then they see the headlines or whatever, they think it's not real.
--:-- Nick Thompson: It was very real.
--:-- Nick Thompson: I don't want to speak for her, but I believe we fell in love.
--:-- Nick Thompson: And then I, at the same, within, you know, a few weeks, I had been let go from my job.
--:-- Nick Thompson: And that was when I kind of just hit rock bottom.
--:-- Nick Thompson: During this dark period, Nick started reflecting on his time on Love is Blind.
--:-- Nick Thompson: And he decided to take a closer look at what he'd signed.
--:-- Nick Thompson: And that's where I kind of started having these thoughts that, you know, they have a lot of control, a lot of autonomy.
--:-- Nick Thompson: And I was like, wow, this actually doesn't really make sense the way that this is framed.
--:-- Nick Thompson: Nick realized it was the contract itself that had set him up to be exploited, at least in his view.
--:-- Nick Thompson: And it was this contract that he took to the National Labor Relations Board.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): That's next. This episode is brought to you by State Farm.
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--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): At the end of 2022, Nick Thompson was divorced, out of work, and struggling to put his life back together.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): And he felt like so many of his problems went back to love is blind.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): When he took a closer look at that agreement he'd signed, he zoomed in on how he was classified.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): And it very clearly stated that the production companies had not hired him as an employee.
--:-- Nick Thompson: Because then the production companies would have to follow basic labor laws, which is pay minimum wages over time.
--:-- Nick Thompson: And the fact that in the contract it says you cannot form a union or be a part of a union.
--:-- Nick Thompson: And so if we were ever going to have those rights and that collective bargaining, this was step one to do that.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): We spoke to lawyers who deal with reality show contracts, and they said that most reality show cast members are not entitled to the kind of labor protections that an employee would have.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): They typically have no right to join a union or get minimum wage or overtime pay.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Essentially, they're treated as independent contractors.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): As Nick started digging, he found that some former Love is Blind cast members had already sued the show, including someone who was on season two with him.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): I filed a lawsuit against Kinetic and Netflix on behalf of Love is Blind cast members and Ultimatum.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): That's Jeremy Hartwell speaking in a documentary.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Alleging that they violated California labor law.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Hartwell had sued the show, claiming it underpaid cast members and deprived them of food, water, and sleep.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): And he said part of the problem was that participants should have been considered employees but they Hartwell lawsuit which was eventually settled laid the groundwork for Nick and another former cast member to take this idea one step further.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): They brought a complaint to the federal agency set up to protect workers' rights, the National Labor Relations Board.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): The lack of autonomy and the length of the contracts and the NDAs, there was a possibility that the NLRB could deem that those are illegal and that we should be classified as employees.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): The NLRB agreed, saying that reality TV cast members should be classified as employees.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): The production companies, on the other hand, denied the premise of the complaint.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): In their response, they said that reality show participants are not employees and that the NLRB is overstepping its authority.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): The case was set to be heard in court this April, but the production companies filed a motion to postpone.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): And Love is Blind is not the only show mired in legal battles.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Former participants on some of the most popular reality shows, like American Idol, Real Housewives, and Vanderpump Rules, have also brought lawsuits alleging they were mistreated in one way or another.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Some of these lawsuits have been settled, while others are still ongoing.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): We spoke to industry experts about the case Nick took to the NLRB.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): They said that if a judge rules in his favor, it could totally transform the way reality TV gets made.
--:-- Michael Carroll: It would have made my job more difficult because I wouldn't have been able to have them under my thumb or in my world or my web the entire time.
--:-- Michael Carroll: So I think it would be a great thing for the cast. I think it would be an awful thing for the producers and the production company and the networks.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): One media and entertainment lawyer pointed out that reality TV relies on capturing cast members' vulnerability.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): It's partly what makes these shows so compelling.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): The lawyer said that without being able to film people 24 hours a day, among other things, the entire genre would change.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): And that's because you're not using real actors, using people that have signed up to be filmed 24-7.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): So if you only had them for 12 to 14 hours, you'd have a two-day schedule when you could have had one.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): So that just, the budgets are going to go crazy.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): And it's going to make for the networks and the production companies to make a lot less television because they couldn't afford it.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): So think about this.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): In 2019, there were seven dating shows on TV, according to Nielsen, the ratings firm.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Last year, there were 59.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Experts told us that this kind of growth would be unrealistic if the business model changed.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): The reality television business would slow down immensely if it was required to have our cast members classified as employees.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Not necessarily because of the pay, but because of restricting their time on camera and the amount of time that we can shoot with them.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): If they're an employee, there are time limits to how long you can make someone work.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): And the way reality television works is that it's a slimmed down, really tight version of regular television with a way smaller budget.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): But there's still a huge question mark over what happens next.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Regardless, lawyers we spoke to said that this complaint will continue to haunt reality TV.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): As for Nick Thompson?
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): In 2023, he started a foundation with Jeremy Hartwell, dedicated to supporting reality cast members, many of whom are worried about speaking up because they don't want to risk legal action by breaching their contracts.
--:-- Nick Thompson: If I speak now and I do some of this work now, I can step away and never have to worry about it again because it's scary.
--:-- Nick Thompson: Like the NDAs are scary.
--:-- Nick Thompson: I got a cease and desist type letter. Like it's terrifying.
--:-- Nick Thompson: And, you know, when I got that letter, all I could think about is I was like, well, what have I got to lose?
--:-- Nick Thompson: What are they going to sue me for?
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): How would you view Love is Blind now based on your experience in it?
--:-- Nick Thompson: It's different in the sense of I don't think of reality TV as real. I think of it as a show.
--:-- Nick Thompson: And I, you know, hindsight's always 20-20, but I definitely think I would have probably approached it a little bit differently had I known what I know now.
--:-- Nick Thompson: But I just think it's something that I did. It's not who I am.
--:-- Nick Thompson: And I wish everyone who chooses to participate in this show or any other show, like, I just wish them well.
--:-- Nick Thompson: And I hope that they come out of it better than they went into it.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): I don't watch it. I can't watch it. People ask that. Like, did you watch the latest season? I'm like, no, I did not.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): That's all for today, Wednesday, February 12th.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): The Journal is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Additional reporting in this episode by Jeevika Verma.
--:-- Host (Jessica Mendoza): Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.
