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--:-- Ryan Knutson: Welcome to The Journal, our show about money, business, and power. I'm Ryan Knutson.
--:-- Jessica Mendoza: And I'm Jessica Mendoza. It's Wednesday, January 22nd.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Coming up on the show, President Trump acts fast on immigration.
--:-- Jessica Mendoza: That's right. We'll be talking to our colleague Michelle Hackman about the new administration's plans to curtail legal and illegal immigration.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And we'll also be discussing the new border czar who's leading the efforts.
--:-- Jessica Mendoza: But first, let's talk about the new competition show on NBC, hosted by Jimmy Fallon and Bozema St. John.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: [laughs] Yeah, that sounds like a lot of fun. Jimmy Fallon: Welcome to On Brand with Jimmy Fallon, series premiere Tuesday on NBC.
--:-- Bozema St. John: I hired 10 creatives from all walks of life. They will be battling it out to see who can impress the world's biggest brands.
--:-- Jimmy Fallon: This is a huge opportunity. This is the battle for the next big idea. We're spending millions of dollars.
--:-- Bozema St. John: I'm so excited to embark on this adventure with all of you. Make the best idea win!
--:-- Ryan Knutson: [laughs] Alright, let's get back to our show. Michelle Hackman is our colleague who covers immigration for The Wall Street Journal.
--:-- Jessica Mendoza: Michelle, thanks for joining us today.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Thanks for having me.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: So, Michelle, let's talk about the new Trump administration's plans to curtail legal and illegal immigration.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Well, in the first hours of his presidency, Donald Trump acted swiftly on immigration.
--:-- Jessica Mendoza: That's right. He signed numerous executive orders restricting legal immigration into the U.S. and giving him more authority to crack down on illegal immigration.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: At a high level, what is the goal of this new Trump administration vis-a-vis immigration?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: I would say the goal is several fold. It really stems from Trump's central campaign promise to do a mass deportation.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: During the campaign, you saw Trump almost use immigration as a catch-all. He said immigration is the source of all your problems.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Economic and nationalist. It's your house price is going up because there are so many more immigrants in the country. Crime is going up because of immigrants.
--:-- Jessica Mendoza: So, Michelle, what's most interesting to you in what we've seen so far?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: They have issued a startlingly large number of executive orders, even smaller sort of memos at the agency level, changes that suggest this has been an administration in waiting for the last four years that has been really ready to go.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Michelle, can you name each of the immigration-related executive orders that Trump has signed?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Okay, there is the birthright citizenship order. There is an order halting the refugee program. That's the program that resettles refugees here legally.
--:-- Jessica Mendoza: And what about the order declaring an invasion?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: So that's the order banning asylum. There is, I'm ticking these off on my fingers, by the way. Okay, you've got three so far. Yeah, there's the national emergency. So that is unlocking the ability to send military to the border and use other military assets like money, planes, places to detain immigrants.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And what about the extreme vetting order?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: That says everyone being issued a visa needs to be vetted much more extremely than they are now. There is an order declaring that cartels south of the border are foreign terrorist organizations.
--:-- Jessica Mendoza: And what about the overall impact of all of these executive orders taken together?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: I would say that if you were to put it all in one category, it is an extreme hardening of our immigration laws to basically say all of these channels that were open to people are now closed shut and reinforced shut.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And taken as a whole, what kind of power and funding do these executive orders give the Trump administration to crack down on immigration?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: They've unlocked a huge store of money, of assets from the military. So we're talking troops sent to the southern border. We're talking military planes to assist with deportations.
--:-- Jessica Mendoza: Does this essentially close the southern border?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: That is what the Trump administration would argue and lead you to believe. I think it's hard to have a counterfactual because, in fact, the last year of the Biden administration, illegal crossings fell and there were very few asylum claims being made.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And what about the executive order regarding birthright citizenship?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: That's right. Can Trump actually get rid of birthright citizenship?
--:-- Jessica Mendoza: Kate, I think that's a question no one knows the answer to.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: I think before this, we would have said, no, you know, you can't by executive order change a constitutional amendment. You know, generally speaking, you have to change a constitutional amendment with another constitutional amendment.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Michelle, you've reported that the incoming Trump administration was poised to start mass deportations within its first 24 hours, starting with raids in Chicago.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: But within about 24 hours of us reporting that, the administration seemingly actually called it off.
--:-- Jessica Mendoza: Why do you think they did that?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Because they don't like to telegraph to people that they're going to come and arrest them, you know, or else people are going to learn their rights not open the door to an immigration agent, etc.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And what about the Trump administration's claim that they're going to target serious criminals?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: I think that's an interesting answer because the Biden administration's deportation policy was also that they targeted criminals.
--:-- Jessica Mendoza: So, what's the difference between their policy and the Trump administration's policy?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: They say that they're looking at a much broader set of criminals than the Biden administration did.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And what about people who don't have criminal records?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: It's a really hard question to answer because there are so many scenarios.
--:-- Jessica Mendoza: Michelle, who is the person who has to orchestrate these raids?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: It's a man named Tom Homan, who Trump brought in to this newly created role that he calls the border czar at the White House.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And what's Tom Homan like?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: He is a very sort of gruff, plain-spoken talker. He really likes to use tough language to describe immigrants.
--:-- Jessica Mendoza: And what about the Trump administration's claim that they're going to deport millions and millions of people?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: That is like the question of the hour, Kate. I have written a lot about the challenges that they're going to face to deport people.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And how will these executive orders and the Trump administration's approach to immigration change the way immigration works in the U.S.?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: If these first few days are any guide, I think that we're going to see sort of an unprecedented level of activity to slam the doors of immigration shut and to do so in increasingly creative ways.
--:-- Jessica Mendoza: Michelle, what are you watching for in the coming days and weeks?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: I really am watching to see whether the raids that we've been anticipating and reporting on are going to materialize and whether they're going to look different from ICE operations in the past.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: And finally, what about the Trump administration's claim that they're going to investigate state and local officials who obstruct immigration enforcement?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Yesterday, the Department of Justice said it would investigate state and local officials who obstruct immigration enforcement.
--:-- Jessica Mendoza: And what about the Pentagon's decision to send up to 1,500 active-duty troops to the southern border?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Today, officials said that the Pentagon is sending up to 1,500 active-duty troops to the southern border.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: That's all for today, Wednesday, January 22nd.
--:-- Jessica Mendoza: The Journal is a co-production of Spotify and The Wall Street Journal. Additional reporting in this episode by Nancy Youssef and Tarini Partey.
--:-- Ryan Knutson: Thanks for listening. See you tomorrow.
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--:-- Ryan Knutson: And don't forget to check out our show merch at wsjshop.com/collections/clothing.
--:-- Jessica Mendoza: Get your Journal gear today!
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