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We're hearing from Germany's foreign minister that they will absolutely invoke all rights under NATO to attack the United States in defense if the United States invades Greenland. Germany's made that very clear. We're learning behind the scenes that Germany, France and others are actually working up what war plans could look like if the United States invades Greenland. a part of a fellow NATO member, Denmark, Donald Trump, when he held this bizarre meeting with oil executives on Friday, started again defaming Greenland and Denmark. And he said, no matter what, we're going to take it one way or another. We're going to do this the easy way or the hard way. But this is ours. What right does Denmark have to? They sent a ship to it. This is going to be ours no matter what. Watch what Donald Trump said on Friday. Play this. Put it on. Thank you. Thank you. And the policy question. How much money are you thinking of giving people in Greenland to get them on board with a possible U.S. I'm not talking about money for Greenland yet. I might talk about that. But right now we are going to do something on Greenland, whether they like it or not, because if we don't do it, Russia or China will take over Greenland. And we're not going to have Russia or China as a neighbor. OK, I would I would like to make a deal, you know, the easy way. But if we don't do it the easy way, we're going to do it the hard way. And I'm a man. And by the way, I'm a fan of Denmark, too. I have to tell you. And, you know, they've been very nice to me. I'm a big fan. But, you know, the fact that they had a boat land there 500 years ago doesn't mean that they own the land. I'm sure we had lots of boats go there also But we need that Because if you take a look Outside of Greenland right now There are Russian destroyers There are Chinese destroyers and bigger There are Russian submarines all over the place We're not going to have Russia Or China occupy Greenland And that's what they're going to do if we don't So we're going to be doing something with Greenland Either the nice way or The more difficult way Then Thomas Dans one of Trump people on the Arctic Research Commission who been representing Trump on this issue he says the same thing not ruling out military invasion Let play it He said the U.S. will take over Greenland and did not rule out the use of force. The key point here is that I think President Trump's been clear on is America needs this for America's national security. There is a major risk to American national security. If it doesn't, there's also a, by extension, major risk to our European partners and really to the free people around the world. So we're at a situation where the current status quo is untenable. So things need to change. So they will change. But I think, as I said before, that eventuality is slight. It's not something that needs or really needs a lot of discussion. So, Thomas, it sounds like you're saying that this is going to happen either the easy way or the hard way, but it's going to happen. Look, I think if you ask President Maduro, the former, this week, he would probably agree with that statement. You know, President Trump's been clear. And so this is the opportunity for everybody to come to the table and I think find the win-win-win deal I've talked about. And just to be very clear, then bottom line, military, yes or no? Bottom line is everything's on the table. Everything's always on the table. I want to bring in the former ambassador to Denmark from the United States, Rufus Gifford. You served in that position from 2013 to 27, Obama's second term. For those listening on audio, The ambassador's shaking his head just even hearing that. And I was preparing for this interview. I mean, I watched the video you made in 2012 when you were appointed as ambassador starting in 2013. And the warmth with which your reception message. I mean, I saw you and your partner bicycling there. And you talked about the cultural bonds between the U.S. and Denmark. And so this when you see this, I just it's such a striking difference. But what do you make of what's going on now, Ambassador? Ben, like, where do you start? But first, I'm going to start a look. I feel so passionately about this. The first thing that I'm struck by is obviously. So there's a couple of words that come to mind. Reckless, clueless, a complete misunderstanding of history, a complete misunderstanding of the way NATO works. So let me just start with this. He makes an argument about national security. He says that it's going Greenland is going to become Russian or Chinese if we don't take it. Well, that misunderstands how NATO works, because honestly, in fact, NATO was formed in part to avoid something like this from ever having to happen. Because if Greenland were, God forbid, attacked by an adversary, invaded by an adversary, let's say the Russians, the entire alliance, Article 5 would be invoked and the entire alliance would be compelled to respond. And so, in essence, whether Greenland is under Danish control or American control, it actually makes no difference from an American national security standpoint. The NATO alliance is based on this idea that our national security, the alliance's national security, is universal, that it's the same. So in essence, the whole argument falls apart. I also don't believe that that's real. I don't believe that that is in any way part of his desire here. But it's not only that, it goes further than that, Ben. And that's what this is why is that anyone who is crazy enough to argue that national security, that the national security of the United States would be strengthened by taking a stake to the heart of NATO, arguably the best alliance the modern world has ever seen. You take a stake to the heart of NATO, I guarantee you this. Two things happen automatically. Russia and China are empowered. And two, the entire Western alliance is less safe because of that. So it is anyone who has any national security experience would tell you that that argument is bogus, flawed, incredibly naive, and more than that, legitimately clueless and doesn't understand a chapter of a history book for the last 80 years. You must have lots of connections in Denmark and Greenland based on your time there. And you must be speaking to people in leadership positions who want to lean on you for guidance or just to get information about what's happening. What are you hearing now within Denmark, within Greenland? So again, Ben, like this is this is heartbreaking for me because I the my favorite word. I'll tell you this. My favorite word in the English language is the word trust. Trust is one of those things that is it takes years and years to earn and can be broken like that can be broken with the snap of a finger. And in this case broken by one administration very very quickly The hard part for me is that you know I was the guy when I was ambassador I would go to the prime This is not partisan This has not been true of just Democrats or any. This is not about that. Any ambassador before Donald Trump would have gone to the foreign minister, the defense minister, the prime minister. We would ask them to send their young men and women into harm's way without reservation. They always said yes. They bled alongside American soldiers. They died alongside American soldiers. Denmark lost more young men and women per capita in Afghanistan than any country other than the United States of America. This, again, this rhetoric, that ridiculous rhetoric by the president of the United States, it isn't just about the government. It isn't just about green. It actually hits them. And this is where I think it's going to be so it's going to impact every single American is that it makes them lose faith in us. And that makes them less likely to I mean, this is the stupid transactional stuff, right? But it makes them less likely to travel here. They all so many of them have sent their kids to school here. They're less likely to do that. They're less likely to buy American product. Businesses are less likely to invest here. This trust that's broken, the work of diplomacy is very hard to build back. So that's what I hear from my Danish friends. I got a heartbreaking note from a Danish soldier yesterday morning, which I posted and it's gone viral. And it's just about, you know, it's, I'm actually going to read you the last line of it because it's so powerful. It's like, it's a soldier never forgets who stood by his side. Nations shouldn't either. And come on, guys. Like, this is just human. This is absurd, the way that he is treating one of our best allies in the world with outrageously flawed rationale. And I will say, too, look, the weird thing is everything I'm saying, I know I'm speaking pretty forcefully, everything he says he wants, which is an increased military presence in Greenland and increased economic partnership with Greenland, we could have tomorrow, Ben. If you sat across the table with some of our best allies in the world, the Danes and the Greenlanders rolled up your sleeves and they would they we would make that deal. We would make that deal. We would make that deal. They would make that deal gladly. But, you know, this, you know, this ridiculousness, I just don't don't even know this. This this Americans be real clear. This rewrites the world order in a way that we don't know what's on the other side of it. And so take it seriously. It matters. And we're going to do everything. I know that I'm going to do everything I possibly can to ensure that it actually doesn't happen. Everything that they just said in those clips you just played doesn't happen because it would be awful for every single American citizen. To your point, if this was truly about military security, that could have been accomplished yesterday. If it's about increased economic development of rare arts, that could have been done yesterday. if it was about, I don't know, improving tourism or building further bonds or, I don't know, even perhaps building more American things in Greenland. All of these things could be done by cooperation. So you have to ask, well, what's this really about here? And then when you listen to the people in Trump's cabinet and Donald Trump and the way he views the world, it's about power and being a predator. And they use that language. They say that the United States is a predator country. Listen to what a lot of the people in his inner circle say. And as predators, it is about conquest and manifest destiny and taking over. And I think he looks at the map, which shows Greenland looking bigger than it actually is because of the way the globe is. But he looks at a massive landmass and he sees it close the same way he looks at Canada, except I think he views Canada as being a little more difficult to take over. And he goes, ah, it's a big landmass. There's 50,000 or so whatever number he gives of the people in his own mind that live there. This is easy to take over. And imagine how beautiful the map would look if that was America. I think that's what that's. I think when you really break it down, he doesn't know what comes next. doesn't care about what that does for NATO. And I'll throw it to you in a moment. I also find that Trump escalates the Greenland rhetoric when he has a meeting with Putin's people. So the moment Dmitriev and Yushikov met in Miami with Trump's people, special envoy Jeff Landry gets talked about, and I just feel like it's the same thing and that connection is so there. So what do you make of that? Cause it seems very, a couple of things on this. So I, one, I agree with you. I do. I think that very, I find it fascinating. They're actually lumping Greenland and Venezuela together because they actually couldn be any more different Look I disagree profoundly with the tactics used by the Trump administration by Venezuela but I think a lot of people could agree that Venezuela is better off under Maduro And so that which and everyone from Marco Rubio to the president have said this was more of a law enforcement operation than anything else Greenland is entirely different. Greenland is attacking an ally, attacking and provoking essentially a fight with your best friends. That's what it is. Venezuela is nothing like that. Venezuela and Greenland do have two things in common, though. And this is why I think it's interesting when Trump lumps them together, the Trump administration lumps them together. The first thing is resources. Venezuela has oil. Greenland has rare earth minerals. The second thing is Western hemisphere domination, which is kind of which is your point. And I think that it's and I think it tends to make sense because there are their arguments for needing it. Don't hold any practical, logical water, Ben, like zero. They don't hold any water for anybody who knows anything about history or American foreign policy. So where do we go from here? What's next? What what what do you see happening? So, Ben, this is what I say. Look, I think that the truth of the matter is, is that we need to talk about this. We need to articulate how important this issue is. This is not just about Greenland, an island of 57,000 people. And yes, that is the actual right number, not what the Trump administration tells you. let's be clear none of those people have ever been there the only one who's ever been there is JD Vance who was there for a couple of hours on our military base because he wasn't welcome in the rest of Greenland and so and this is what I say I say we got it I do think look I haven't been particularly forgiving of Republican members of Congress and senators over the course of the last year many of them have spoken out in the last couple of days and I think that's a good thing I think we have to build a movement inside the United States domestically that convinces both elected members of Congress as well as the American people that this kind of action flies in the face of American self-interest. This is one man's selfish self-interest. This is not American self-interest. That's vitally important. I do think also our allies need to step up here. I think that for the longest time, our allies have been playing by sort of a traditional playbook as it relates to Donald Trump. They'll talk about treaties signed decades ago, agreements made with other presidents. Donald Trump doesn't care about any of that. And I think we need to be playing hardball here. that are, and if he's not going to listen to the Danes and the Greenlanders, then maybe he will listen to a larger collection of people who say that they will somehow retaliate against the United States were Americans to take this unprecedented action. And I do think that's important. And again, I'm speaking like this, Ben, as a patriotic American. I speak about it in no other way. And I want greater partnership with Greenland. What I don't want to see is that NATO alliance fall apart. What I don't want to see is our best friends lose faith in us. And that's what we're seeing right now. And I think all of us as Americans have a responsibility to fight as hard as we possibly can against that. Rufus, I hope you come back. I want to talk more about this, but we appreciate your time. Let's stay in touch on a weekly basis, at least because we're going to need to have you on more to give us more updates. But Rufus Giverd, former ambassador to Denmark from 2013 to 2017. We appreciate you. Thank you, Ben. Anytime. Thanks for having the conversation. Everybody hit subscribe. Let's get to 6 million subscribers. With Toyota, affordability isn't about cutting back. It's about getting more. See your local Toyota dealer for a spacious new Grand Islander or RAV4. Great financing and lease options for qualified customers. Visit buyatoyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places. The new year brings new health goals and wealth goals. Protecting your identity is an important step. Your info is in endless places that could expose you to identity theft, leading to lost funds. 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