How To Create Better Relationships: 6 Surprising Lessons From 28 Years Of Marriage

Mel Robbins: Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. Today, I am doing something I've never done before. I'm sitting here on my screen porch in Southern Vermont. I've been married for 30 years. My husband's name is Chris, and I have never done what I'm about to do today.

Mel Robbins: See, I've been getting a lot of questions recently about how Chris and I have made our marriage last. So I decided we would each come up with three lessons that we've learned the hard way after being together for 30 years. Here's the catch: I have no idea what Chris's three things are. Chris has no idea what my three lessons are. So I have no idea where this is going, but I do know this: it's definitely going to go somewhere unexpected. And it's also going to open up some unexpected breakthroughs for you too.

[Intro music]

Mel Robbins: Hey, it's your friend Mel. Welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. It is always such an honor to be able to spend time with you and to be together. If you're brand new, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast family. I am so thrilled because today I am inviting you to join me and my husband on our screened-in porch here in Southern Vermont, where we're going to be sharing lessons from 30 years of being together.

Mel Robbins: I'm going to warn you, these are lessons that we have learned the hard way. What I love is we prepared separately for this conversation. I did my homework and I have three lessons from 30 years of being together. He did his homework separately. He has three lessons from us being together. I have no idea what he's going to say. He has no idea what I'm going to say. I am so excited to jump into this.

Mel Robbins: Oh, here comes Chris right now. So without further ado, let's jump into it. Oh my gosh. Chris, thank you for being here. I know that it's not your favorite thing to be on camera and to have these personal conversations.

Chris: Actually, the personal conversations are worthy, but being on camera... yeah, I don't run for that. But I'm happy to be here. Thanks for the invitation.

Mel Robbins: Why did you agree to do this?

Chris: Because I love you.

Mel Robbins: Oh, I love you.

Chris: And I also trust that this is not a conversation about relationship advice as much as it is us doubling down on some of these things that are so important to our relationship. So in other words, this is an opportunity for you to give me a tune-up in our marriage that we're behind while we create a podcast episode?

Mel Robbins: A little bit, but for me too.

Chris: I love that.

Mel Robbins: Okay. That's why I'm here.

Chris: Oh my God. That's why I'm here too. All right.

Mel Robbins: We each came to the table with three things that have made a difference in our marriage, like pieces of wisdom and reflection. Even preparing for what I wanted to say reminded me of how important these things are and that I need to be more intentional about doing them.

Chris: Me too.

Mel Robbins: Awesome. You're not going to cry already, are you?

Chris: Probably.

Mel Robbins: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Okay. Mel, why don't you go first?

Mel Robbins: Okay. Well, I actually brought a note card because I wanted to make sure I could remember all three things.

Chris: I'm a little jealous that you got a note card.

Mel Robbins: Well, you have better memory than I do, and you have the ability to hold more information in your brain. As we both know, I'm all over the place. So I really wanted to get this right and I wanted to stay on task.

Mel Robbins: The first piece of advice that I have for myself that I want to remind myself of... I got to give a huge shout out to my parents, Marsha and Bob Schneeberger. They were visiting us just a couple months ago here in Southern Vermont. It was their 56th wedding anniversary this June. I asked them if they had any advice to share about what has made them go the distance after 56 years.

Mel Robbins: I tell them all the time that they're a huge inspiration to me because their story is very unlikely that they would have made it. My mom getting pregnant with me at 19, dropping out of college, them being such a young couple, really just fighting through those early years without family around. The fact that they've made it 56 years together and they're very different personalities. I asked them, "Mom, Dad, what do you think has made you go the distance?" I want to play a clip for you and then we can react to it. I'll tell you what my advice to myself is.

[Audio clip begins]

Mel Robbins (in clip): So today is your 56th wedding anniversary. I was just wondering, Dad, what advice should you give to people about how to have a successful long-term relationship?

Bob Schneeberger (in clip): Well, it's like sailing a boat. You'll have those nice, calm seas some days, and then other days you may be sailing through a storm. So I would say you've got to be prepared for ups and downs, and you have to realize that there are two sides to every story, and your opinion may not always be the correct one. So there's give and take in any relationship. I think that's one of the things that makes it work out.

Mel Robbins (in clip): Good point. What do you do when you're sailing through one of the stormy periods? How do you keep together? How do you know if it's a storm we're sailing?

Bob Schneeberger (in clip): Why wouldn't it be? We started out the journey together. We want to finish it together.

Mel Robbins (in clip): True.

Bob Schneeberger (in clip): That was a commitment we made 56 years ago. So you put on a life jacket and a safety harness. Off you go, baby. And move on. Take another step forward.

[Audio clip ends]

Mel Robbins: Do you have any reaction to that clip?

Chris: I mean, he is very grounded and even-keeled in his own ways. Just the seeing it from both sides... I think what struck me is his apparent ability to see it from both sides and also just the steadfast commitment.

Mel Robbins: The thing that struck me about that is two things. First of all, I love that my mom's in the background chiming in. I just freaking love hearing her in the background. That was just really cute. But the moment that really struck me is when he just literally was like, "Why wouldn't it? We started out a journey together. We want to finish it together."

Mel Robbins: That brings me to the first piece of advice or wisdom that I'm going to share, which is: get in the boat. Get in the boat.

[Mel becomes emotional]

Mel Robbins: I think... oh, now I'm going to start crying. Jesus, why am I crying?

Chris: Well, I think because if you've been together for 30 years, there are lots of times where you want to get out of the boat.

Mel Robbins: I've made the mistake way too many times of finding myself in a raft with a bunch of friends bitching about you versus being in the boat with you. I wanted to start out with that piece of advice because too often, I think people are in relationships hoping it works. You're in the boat in the beginning, but then as things get rocky or the journey gets boring or the little things start to happen that build up, you start to question whether or not you're going to get there and you aren't even in the boat anymore.

Mel Robbins: The first thing I would say to anybody that wants a very successful relationship is you've got to be honest with yourself if you're actually even in the boat. Because no advice is going to matter if you're not interested in making the relationship work.

Mel Robbins: Even in those moments, Chris, where we were going through excruciatingly difficult situations and issues and breakdowns either with each other or ourselves or our kids or financially or crises of confidence in our careers, problems with drinking, all of it... deep down inside, just like my parents said, I always knew I wanted to finish the journey together. But I haven't been that great at always being in the boat.

Mel Robbins: I think you have to ask yourself, "Am I even in the boat in this relationship? Or am I sitting there on the outside judging it or hoping we make it?" You have to have a commitment with yourself that you're going to get in the boat with your partner and you're going to do your part, or else it's not going to make it. Relationships work because two people make a decision to get in a boat together and make it work. That's my first piece of advice.

Chris: It's beautiful. Do you find yourself going back and asking yourself, "Why did I get in the boat in the first place?" With you?

Mel Robbins: Yeah.

Chris: No. God, no. Absolutely.

Mel Robbins: And why? Do you?

Chris: No, but if you're outside of the boat or you're even able to recognize that, "Hey, I'm outside of the boat," there's got to be something that gets you back in the game, so to speak. Going back to the beginning and wondering, "Well, why the hell did I get in this boat in the first place?" might be one place to start.

Mel Robbins: That's a good thing. Does that metaphor mean anything to you in terms of you seeing moments in your life where you were out of the boat, either on a life raft or being dragged behind it?

Chris: Well, when I first met you, I think we fell in love so quick. Or I should say that we knew when we knew and it was so sudden. But the idea that one should reflect, at least for a moment, as to whether or not they could envision themselves 85 years old on the front porch with that person rocking next to them. Is that their person that they see themselves next to? For me, the answer was an emphatic, absolutely.

Mel Robbins: But little did they know the craziness beneath the surface.

Chris: Well, I was just going to say, that's a visual way out. If somebody sits back and thinks about all the storms that we're going to go through and the waves and the rocking and the shipwrecks... well, that's a very different train of thought than sort of seeing yourself in the end.

Mel Robbins: I think the mistake that a lot of people make is you get obsessed with the stuff on the surface. You fall for somebody because they're good looking or they got a great job or you have this wonderful life dating. And you forget that if you actually want to go the distance, it's truly about all the things that you can't see that make a relationship work. Is the person kind? Do they have you in mind? Are they considerate? Do you laugh? Do you have fun?

Chris: I'm none of these things, by the way, I guess.

Mel Robbins: Me neither. Baloney. That is not true.

Mel Robbins: But it's the things that are beneath the surface. It comes back to this idea and this question that you have to ask yourself when you're in your... are you even in the boat? Because you can almost always see when a couple breaks up, whether it's a divorce or a breakup, or they drift apart and they feel like they're roommates and they're just coexisting — which we've had years of our life that have felt like that — that at some point you just quietly start quitting the thing. That is what I mean by, "Are you even in the boat?" Without that desire to want to make it work, it will not work.

Mel Robbins: I wanted to start there because I feel like the rest of the things that I would have to offer in terms of a reflection of being in a relationship with you for 30 years and thinking about all the mistakes that I've made or the things that I would do over now that I know what I know... none of that advice actually matters if you're not even in the boat.

Chris: Yeah, well, that certainly is a question you have to ask yourself. But is it my turn to go? Can I get one?

Mel Robbins: I'd love to hear one.

Chris: Because the comment that you made about people looking at the surface level stuff versus are they kind, do they have my best interests... my first thing that came to mind was flowers.

[Chris becomes emotional]

Chris: Yes. Yes. It sounds so simple — buying you flowers. But the emotion comes from how long it took to realize how important receiving flowers was to you. The analogy of the boat and being in the boat is a good one because I remember feeling like I was in the boat. We're rowing really hard. And so are you. And we were rowing our own boats, in theory.

Chris: You would come home. This is when you're traveling a ton. You'd come home on a Friday night. I'd have thought that I had thought of everything. The house is clean, the kids are ready to greet you, dinner. Of course, often you would come in exhausted. I don't know if it happened in the moment, but that weekend or sometime, there was a real disappointment that you expressed, like "You can't even buy me flowers."

Chris: I'm not putting it in the right context, except that that really hit me. Here I was thinking I was in the boat doing all the right things. But the thing that truly would have made you feel like I was thinking about you was not whether the dinner was made or the kids were at home or the house was clean — it was your love and joy of flowers.

Chris: When I was reflecting on this, I remember all the years knowing how much you loved flowers. We would walk around our house and do these garden tours. Your parents' love of gardening and flowers, your knowledge of flowers. It was so clear as day that you are all about flowers. But it never ever occurred to me that buying them and having them on the table for you, or even going out and cutting the ones that you were growing, would have really made you feel taken care of.

Chris: It's not an excuse that I never saw my own father hand flowers. He was more of a jewelry than flower guy with my mom. But looking back on it, I realize there's a level to which you could go deeper with your spouse to find out what really matters. The things that I thought were important — sure, they made a difference — but they didn't strike the chord. Those little simple acts of kindness that are not the ones you think are going to make a difference, but trying to get in there and listen for what matters to you...

Mel Robbins: It's really painful to see how sad you get.

Chris: The sadness is not an indication that I'm still holding on to it. It's reflective of my ability to take myself back there.

Mel Robbins: Don't go back there, please.

Chris: But to your dad's analogy, don't look into the tears in that. I'm not hanging on that or harboring it. But it was part of the rough seas.

Mel Robbins: Just to widen this out so you understand the context: this was a period of our lives that was extraordinarily challenging. We had three kids under the age of 10 and we were in massive financial trouble. Chris had just left a restaurant business that he had started with his best friends that was not doing well financially. I was the breadwinner and I was on the road 150 days a year. I was making money giving keynote speeches at big corporate events, and that's how we were paying our bills. Chris was the primary caregiver. He was the stay-at-home dad. He was absolutely freaking amazing.

Mel Robbins: What was interesting about this period is that we were both rowing really hard, and we were in separate boats. My therapist Ann Davin, who I talk about a lot, gave me this analogy: in every relationship, there's the "me" stage, there's the "we" stage, and then there's what she calls that "God" stage where you're deeply energetically connected and you have the other person in mind.

Mel Robbins: What was happening for me during this period — and I think regardless of whether you have kids or not, regardless of what your gender is or what your role is in the relationship — it is so easy to feel taken for granted. I felt taken for granted because I didn't want to be on the road. I didn't want to be missing out. I didn't want to have the responsibility on my shoulders of making the money. I was terrified about how depressed you seemed. And I was also grateful that you were home with the kids so that I could go and travel.

Mel Robbins: There are lots of people in relationships where one of you has to travel for work — whether you're a long haul truck driver or you're like my brother and you're on the road five days a week because you're a consultant, or you work the night shift and you and your partner are on completely different schedules. When that happens, you both go into the "me" stage and you feel very in your corner about what you're doing.

Mel Robbins: While I would be on a plane or at some random hotel going into a conference room to give a speech to 200 people and then get back on a plane, I would call home and the kids didn't seem to miss me because everyone was busy — which is great because it means they're in their lives. And you would often not even know what city I was in. So I felt alone. Then I would come home and I would be exhausted.

Mel Robbins: All of the things that you listed, which I deeply appreciated — our house is in great shape, our kids are mentally well, things are being taken care of so I'm not worried about it — but I would come home and it wasn't really even about buying flowers. It's that there would be a vase in the middle of the kitchen where there were dead flowers. Because I had picked them the day before, the weekend before, and then I left. It would be this symbol that nobody was thinking of me while I was gone. Oftentimes you were not at home because you were off coaching one of the kids' teams. So I felt like nobody even cared that I was coming home.

Mel Robbins: What I love about this example that you're giving, Chris, by saying it's flowers — it's not about the flowers. It's about what they represent. It's easy to get stuck in the "me" stage — what I'm doing, what you're doing, the logistics. To actually take your relationship to the "we" stage, I use the analogy of the boat. You have to get in the boat. What you're now bringing into the boat is this idea: do you even have the other person in mind?

Mel Robbins: I'm going right on the record: I did not have you in mind. And we were expecting each other to look at the individual effort and check the box that that was the effort that the marriage required. Your marriage and your relationship requires something other than the "me" level and the tending to all the things that are the responsibility of both of us. We spent years fighting about the dishes, the this, the dog, who's doing this, who's on first, who's on second. We completely ignored: do you have the other person in mind? Because it's not about the flowers. I know that's what you're getting at. It's about just stopping to think, "Is there one thing I can do today that shows that I've had my partner in mind?"

Mel Robbins: For me, the flowers became this symbol that while I was gone, during a very crazy week where you're taking care of a bazillion things in our community and running the booster club for the high school and being an absolutely amazing dad — was there a moment where you stopped and went, "Oh, Mel's coming home. And I am thinking about her." The act of walking outside and cutting some flowers means at some point in the busyness of the week, you had me in mind and you were actually excited that I was coming home.

Mel Robbins: I think about this today in how I always, if I'm going out for coffee, bring you something. Or I make coffee for you in the morning. I try to do things that demonstrate that I have you in mind. If I could go back in time and hit erase on that period in our marriage or do things differently, it would be that time because it was really hard. I'm proud of us for putting on the life jacket and strapping in the safety belt. Even though there were times where I was so pissed at you and you were pissed at me and we were in our separate corners, I never ever didn't want to finish the journey with you.

Chris: Thank you for sharing that. Thank you for saying something honestly about the flowers. Because you're right, it's not about the flowers. Except that after that, there was a different level of anticipation and joy and enthusiasm when I was getting flowers or cutting flowers. Part of me was angry that somebody like yourself had to point it out to me. But at the same time, I think that did wake me up to this idea that there's more to it. There's a level to which one can listen and have somebody in mind that takes two to understand. I really appreciate you sharing this.

Mel Robbins: One of the things that I want to acknowledge that I'm really proud of us for is that we've always had this ability and this desire to go deeper than the thing that we're actually upset about or arguing about. I think one of the big takeaways is: one way that you could empower your partner is to think about what is something that shows you that your partner has you in mind.

Mel Robbins: I'll give you an example from our life right now. I try to go outside every day and pick up the shovel and walk around the yard and pick up dog poop. Because I want you to know that caring for these dogs and making sure our lawn is not littered with dog poop is not just on your shoulders. I don't know if you know that, but there's a lot of things that I try to do so that I have you in mind. Emphasis on "try."

Chris: I appreciate you going out and doing that.

Mel Robbins: Well, there's a lot of other things, but we're sitting outside on the screen porch, so I just was looking out there and saw the dogs and was like, well, that's something.

Chris: No, I would say that even — I grew up in a household of men with the exception of my mom — but putting the toilet seat down is a perfect example of just keeping the other in mind. It's so simple. It's just consideration. It's thinking about small ways that you can show up to make the other person's life a little better.

Mel Robbins: Is there anything that I could do to have you in mind? I made the request that if you're going to the grocery store, just grab a little thing of tulips. You don't need to buy a dozen roses. Just the cheap little flowers there shows me that you thought about me. That makes a difference. Is there something I could do better to show you that I have you in mind?

Chris: Not that I can think of. Not right now. But maybe before we're finished, I'll think of something.

Mel Robbins: This went really powerful and profound very quickly. I feel like this is a great time to hit the pause button so we can hear a word from our sponsors. I can wipe away the tears. Maybe you're going to share this with the person that you love. Because I know if you listen to this conversation, it is going to open up so many things for you to talk about. That is just amazing. That's how you come together and you get stronger and you weather these storms and you have more fun being in that boat together.

Mel Robbins: But don't you dare go anywhere because after this short break, Chris and I are going to be waiting for you in this boat. I've got my second lesson from 30 years being together to share with you next. Stay with us.

[Commercial break]

Mel Robbins: Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. Today you and I are together. My husband is here. I'm so excited. We are sharing lessons that we've learned mostly the hard way from being together for 30 years.

Mel Robbins: The second lesson that I wanted to share is the importance of learning to love somebody exactly as they are and exactly as they aren't. I think too often we love the potential, but we don't actually love the person. There's a big difference.

Mel Robbins: What I mean by this is that I feel like we've gotten to a point after being together for 30 years where I truly am able to love you exactly as you are versus spending a lot of time wishing you were different. I feel like there are a lot of people in relationships that fall in love with somebody and they can love the person as they are when they meet. But then, of course, the more time you spend with somebody, and as you go through the ups and downs and the waves and the storms of life, you see how somebody responds to situations. You see their past trauma come out. You see bad habits. You see coping mechanisms. It's very easy to want to pressure someone to change and to want someone to be more like you.

Mel Robbins: A lot of what frustrates people in relationships — and I'm only saying this based on my own experience and based on what I reflected on, what do most of my friends complain about when they're privately complaining about the person that they're with? It's all the things that you wish the person would change. I'm not saying that you shouldn't make requests about somebody building some skills, helping out more around the house, having healthier habits, taking better care of themselves. That's a wonderful thing to work together on in a relationship. What I'm talking about is pressuring someone to be more like you or pressuring someone to change.

Mel Robbins: I can give you some examples because you are unbelievable at this.

Chris: Are you going to give me the bad stuff or you're going to give me the good stuff?

Mel Robbins: What do you mean?

Chris: Well, you just said everybody's got a list.

Mel Robbins: Oh, do you? Yeah, I'm sure you, Chris has got a long, long list on me.

Chris: I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that I used to be the kind of person that in the beginning of a relationship, I felt it was my job to become exactly like the person I was with. I would take up all the sports. I would try to have all the same habits. I even lied to you the very first conversation that we had because we started talking and it was very clear to me that you were not only devastatingly handsome and I wanted to go home with you that night, but I also could assess that you were a very outdoorsy person.

Mel Robbins: I'm a very active person. I did grow up in a family where there was camping and we had a boat and I grew up on a lake connected to Lake Michigan. We grew up ice fishing and fishing the steelhead run in the fall. I grew up throwing tackle over the side of a boat. I certainly have cleaned a salmon. I grew up in that kind of family. But when it became clear that you were like fancy outdoorsman, I'm like, "Oh, I fly fish too," which is a bold face lie. I had never even held one in my hand. That came back to bite me in the ass.

Mel Robbins: But the point is that I've gotten to the point where I realize that part of the magic in our relationship is you're not trying to change me. You get up an hour and a half before I do, and you never shame me about that. In fact, oftentimes you will close the curtains so I can sleep. You love to ski. Our kids love to ski. I have realized I'm not really into skiing. You do not shame me about that. You love to golf. As much as you may wish that I would take up golf, I just have never been drawn to the sport.

Mel Robbins: I am messy. I forget to flatten out the cardboard boxes. I'm loud. I'm late. I don't feel pressure from you. I sometimes know that I drive you crazy. I sometimes know that I exhaust you. But I don't ever feel pressure or judgment from you. There is this level of acceptance and learning to embrace who I am and who I'm not that is absolutely incredible. It makes me want to be better. Having you accept me for all of that — because there's a lot of great stuff that comes with Mel Robbins, and there's a lot of horrible stuff that comes with me too that's just irritating and overwhelming — I don't feel judgment from you. I feel like you're always in my corner.

Mel Robbins: That makes me, ironically, and this is like a huge takeaway too, it makes me want to be better. It makes me interested in trying things that you do because I want to spend more time with you. It's just a simple thing. It's one of the kindest things that you can do: truly loving the person for who they are and who they're not. Stop pressuring them to be somebody different. Give them the space to grow into it if they choose to. If you're with somebody because of the potential, you're in the wrong relationship.

Chris: I mean, you are speaking of unconditional love, right? Or would you call loving somebody unconditional different than what you're speaking of?

Mel Robbins: I think I would call it different because I think unconditional love does not mean unconditional tolerance of bad behavior. Somebody's behavior reveals the truth about who they are, no question. We tend to explain away behavior and just look at the potential. You've never done anything that has crossed a line in terms of being emotionally abusive or disrespectful or hurting me in that regard. I'm only saying that because I can imagine somebody listening might be thinking, "But what if the person's kind of a narcissist? Are you saying that I'm supposed to accept them?"

Mel Robbins: Yeah, I am saying that. Because when you're with somebody who is disrespectful or never has you in regard or treats you terrible or is abusive to you — I never said that — or gets drunk and smacks you... when you explain away bad behavior, you're actually chasing the potential of who that person can be. You're not choosing to see who they actually are. I've never been in a situation with you where your behavior revealed anything except for love toward me.

Mel Robbins: But there are aspects of my personality that I know are awful. For a long time — I'll give you an example — I used to hate the fact that you were introverted. I used to hate the fact that you would ask so many questions because you're an inquisitive person.

Chris: I thought you still hated that about me.

Mel Robbins: Some days. But I used to wish that you would change. I used to wish that you were the life of the party. I used to build up silent resentment about it. That's not fair. I just think it's really important to see those things, to be honest with yourself when you're in a relationship: where are you punishing somebody?

Mel Robbins: The person you chose. And if you can't actually love them exactly as they is and literally give up any stake or hope that they're going to change, then that's not the relationship for you. The relationship's not going to work if you're secretly hoping this person is different. People reveal who they are based on their behavior. And I'm not saying that people can learn to cook and they can learn how to pick up after themselves or put the toilet seat down or they can learn how to be more considerate. Those are skills. That's very different than somebody's fundamental nature, somebody's personality, somebody's mental health disposition or storm they're going through. I think it's a really important thing to learn how to love the person instead of pressuring them or chasing the potential or wishing they would change. How's that? Thank you for sharing. I love you.

Chris: I love you too. Thank you for loving me, for being a little more introverted. You're really introverted, to be honest.

Mel Robbins: Did it ever occur to you that maybe I am the life of the party just on a little quieter note?

Chris: No.

Mel Robbins: You know what I love about this conversation, Chris, is that even after being together for 30 years, I still learn new things about you. And I absolutely love that. And that's available in absolutely every relationship that you have, if you're willing to lean in and to learn and open yourself up to the possibilities of constantly growing and learning new things about the person that you're with. And if you share this with them and you listen together, I promise you, the conversation that will result will absolutely help you learn new things about the person that you're with. So stay with us. Let's hear a word from our sponsors. When we come back, Chris is up next and we're gonna hear the second lesson that he's learned after 30 years of being together. Stay with us.

[Musical transition]

Mel Robbins: Welcome back. It's your friend, Mel. I'm here with my husband, Chris. We are sharing lessons with you today about the things that we've learned the hard way after being together for 30 years. So Chris, what's your second lesson?

Chris: So my next thought is understanding the roles that we play or can play or think that we should be playing.

Mel Robbins: I feel like I'm about to get in trouble.

Chris: And I'll never forget it that when we got married on our wedding day, if you remember, it was so stunningly beautiful. And we were sitting on this tennis court and this weird music that we had chosen was playing. And you got to the top of the aisle and nobody stood up because they didn't know what to do with it. They were like, we're having an out-of-body experience here. And you were like, "Are you going to get up?" It was remarkable. You walked down the aisle and two of our friends spoke on behalf of us. And they talked about how you were the tornado and I was the rock. Gwen Bethel. Shout out Gwen Bethel. Dartmouth College roommate. Love you, Gwen. Even you calling upon everybody to stand up for you is sort of... I liken that to some of your incredible energy, but certainly tornado-like at times, just like all the things that you've been describing. But I hated being the rock.

Mel Robbins: What?

Chris: I did not embrace that. I didn't internalize being the rock in the way that I can comprehend it today. It actually sounded really freaking boring and dull and, as you say, introverted or whatever. Just what's more useless than a rock?

Mel Robbins: What? Is literally how I adopted that. You needed therapy back then.

Chris: No doubt. That's all I'm going to say. No doubt. Because I heard a totally different thing. I literally was like, the whirlwind is the nightmare of the relationship. And the rock is the foundation, the strength, the certainty that holds it all together.

Mel Robbins: I heard that the tornado is fun and the rock is boring. Whoa.

Chris: And so, but I did internalize the rock probably too much. We've never talked about this. In this context of stability, strength, reliability. And so, of course, naturally as a guy, that really started to, especially once we started to have kids, was all about the money. And this natural inclination to think that a good rock can be relied upon for the money. And when you and I actually made a decision to not be running a zone defense on our family, but instead you were going to focus on career and the money and I was going to focus more on the family, that... This was like 10 years ago. That was certainly the best decision we ever made in that your relationship to money and your creativity around it, your freedom around it, it became so apparent after we made that call. And it also was apparent that my own relationship to money was distorted and I had beaten myself down and convinced myself that I was not the reliable rock that I was supposedly called out to be. Because you didn't make money.

Mel Robbins: Well, it was never enough.

Chris: I think, of course, I internalized the fact that not only had I not made enough, but our predicament was largely the cause of my own. And I, neither here nor there, that ability or sort of our own willingness to actually stop and consider that maybe we had a different opportunity to play different roles in our household, I think was monumental.

Mel Robbins: Yeah, I want to widen this out a little bit because I think this is an issue that you and I have struggled with that so many couples do, which is how are you dividing up the — labor's the wrong word — but the responsibility in a relationship. And the weight that society puts on your shoulders based on traditional roles that people have played in a relationship. And when Chris and I first met, we were both working and we contributed equally to our joint income. And we've always had a joint checking account. I've never quite understood the philosophy behind, "I got my money, you got your money, we put it in together." That never felt like a thing that felt empowering to me because I really wanted to be in the boat, so to speak. And dividing those things, I think sets up resentment and puts you on a different side from one another. Combining, if you do it in a way that's empowering, forces you to have to have conversations about money. And so we were always both working, both throwing our money into one big pot, both trying to figure it out. And then you started to out-earn me. And what's interesting in a relationship is there is an implied power dynamic in terms of who's making more money. And when you were making more money, I felt like you had more power in the relationship.

Chris: And then, and I'm not saying that this is right. I'm just saying it's this unspoken thing. And in addition to the value that one might perceive themself to be bringing to the relationship.

Mel Robbins: Yes. And we don't value psychologically or as a society, the role that a primary caregiver gives. There is a massive economic value to that that is not credited on the balance sheet of a relationship. And it should be. Because if you don't do that, you do not value in the relationship the contribution that the other person is making by literally being home, taking care of things, making sure you're the stable person that is getting the groceries and doing the laundry and providing the care for children and that rock presence that you're talking about. And so we kind of ham-and-egged it together all the time. And then when you went into the restaurant business, I think it's really important to note that one of the desires that you had in your heart when you went into the restaurant business is you told me that one of the reasons why you wanted to start a business in our community is because you grew up with a father that was never home. He was always on the road. He was always climbing the ladder. He was always chasing the money in the career. And he had a very big career as a result, but you didn't have a dad present. And that you hoped that by starting a small business in our community, you would actually be around more. Now I'm going to tell you, I kind of laugh behind your back because I'm like, dude, you've clearly never worked in a restaurant. I have been in the front of the house, the back of the house, the fry cook, the this, the that. What do you mean you're going to be around?

Chris: Yeah, you're an idiot. You should have said something.

Mel Robbins: But no, you wouldn't have listened anyway. So when you went into the restaurant business, we were still in a state where the little bit of income that you and your partner were taking from the restaurant as you were trying to get it off the ground and as it was running, I was making about the same. And so we were even Steven. And then the financial crisis hit and the business started to struggle. And the fact that we had leveraged ourselves — and by the way, that was a joint decision. We made the decision that we would take out a home equity line, that we would max out credit cards, that we would liquidate a 401k and the kids' college savings. We did that together. And when the crisis hit, you want to talk about a freaking storm? Try experiencing the stress on your relationship when you can't pay for the town soccer program for your kid. Try struggling to get gas in the tank of the car. Checks bouncing over and over. And it wasn't even just payroll checks bouncing in the restaurant. It was, you're not getting paid. And this is now 2007, 2008, when the huge financial crisis and housing market turned upside down. And it was just one tidal wave after the other. When we — I don't even know how the hell we made it through that. We were floating on shards of wood trying to keep our children above the water and hold on to everything that we had worked so hard to build as it appeared to be shattering around us. And I guess maybe we made it through because we were both alcoholics at the time and were drunk when we were around each other. I mean, there were days where the kids would wake up on their own and come downstairs and I'm ashamed to say Sawyer, our oldest, who's now 25, remembers this. And she would find Chris and I asleep in the chairs in the living room because we had passed out from all the bourbon we had drank. And why were we drinking? Because we had a negative balance in the checking account again. And we were racking up banking fees because the checks kept bouncing. Like it's hard enough when you can't actually clear a check, but then the bank hits you with 25, 50, $75. And the bills that sat unopened on the counter.

Chris: Evidently, we made sure to have enough alcohol on the boat when we first got on it.

Mel Robbins: I always ruin the budget, man, because you just steal it. No, I'm just kidding. But where I'm going with this is if we were going to keep the house and pay our bills, one of us had to do something. And you were not psychologically in fight mode. You were in freeze. And so I leveraged that rock bottom. And honestly, if I'm being honest, my anger at myself and at you for being in this situation. And I just became like — I'm thinking about the Tasmanian devil. I did whatever I had to do to make money. And when thankfully I started to make money and things started to change, whether it was like the small radio show on the weekends, going to a Sunday night show on WSB in Atlanta, to a five-day-a-week show in Orlando, to taking on odd jobs here and there, to all kinds of like just yes, yes, yes, yes. You left the restaurant business, hadn't paid you in six months, couldn't afford two partners anyway. And in 2014, you became the primary parent and I became the breadwinner. And it was not something that you wanted to do. I know it was crushing for you to sit in the car and drop the kids off or be in the pickup line and feel like you had failed in your career while your wife was off giving another speech to try to pay off the debt and pay our bills. And that you really wrestled with that. And I know the dynamic in our relationship swung in this really toxic direction, where because I was now making all the money and you felt like a failure, it seemed like I had more power. And the thing that — and I'm pointing this out because I think a lot of couples struggle with what they do with their money and who makes the money and whether or not you get a vote or if your vote counts. And what I personally found interesting as a woman is that I started to take on the mindset of what I would believe is a very chauvinistic male. I felt entitled to make the call because I was making the money. And if there's something that I would take back, it's the way that that power dynamic shifted our ability to truly be in the boat together, working together. It's not that I didn't value everything that you were providing because I knew that I could not be on the road. I couldn't do what I was out in the world doing or make the money that we desperately needed without you at home because I value our family more than anything. But it is so sneaky how money and the power dynamic changes you as a couple. Like I've never understood how a relationship can survive without full transparency. What I love about how the universe or God or whatever you believe shuffled the deck and how we ended up is you never, ever, ever would have said, "You know what I think my calling is? I think my calling is to be the spiritual rock for our family, to be the world's most amazing parent to my children, to pursue a master's in spiritual psychology, to start a men's retreat, to become a death doula." You never would have found your actual path in life without the universe just taking a sledgehammer to this idea that you should be go climbing a ladder and making a lot of money. You have never been motivated by money. You don't care about it. You would live in a yurt if I wanted to live in a yurt, which I do not. I just want to go on the record and say, we're not doing that.

Chris: You can do that.

Mel Robbins: But, you know, I'll meet you on the weekends. But you started the restaurant business because you thought it would allow you to be present with our kids. And the irony is it worked. It just didn't happen the way you thought it would. But it led you where you were meant to go. And the beautiful thing that has happened in our marriage is that our kids have seen a relationship where we have constantly been ham-and-egging it and switching roles, which opens up this possibility to think about who you could be or what your relationship could be or the fact that a relationship that goes the distance requires two people in the boat who both want to make it to the end of the journey together. And that means sometimes you're behind the wheel, sometimes you're rowing, sometimes you're bailing, sometimes you're reading the map, sometimes you're below deck resting and taking turns, but there's lots of different positions that you have to play. And I'm very proud of the fact that we have been passing the baton back and forth. And I definitely could have done a better job in my own kind of emotion management and really being more loving and supportive instead of frustrated and entitled during those years. But I always knew that I would never be able to do what I was doing without you and valued everything you were doing.

Chris: It's an interesting thing that you bring up about The Rock and The Whirlwind because unless you talk about it with the person that you're with, you probably just assume that you're on the same page about the value that you bring.

Mel Robbins: Yeah, you're back to your tornado self.

Chris: No, but I just wanted to say that I feel like it's an important distinction between power, as you mentioned, a few times and contribution. Because for any men out there listening, it wasn't about power for me or authority. It was about this desire, this desire to want to contribute in what I thought was the only way I knew how. And, you know, you use the analogy of the boat and whether somebody's reading the map or bailing the water or rowing, that's what took us time, I think, to find out what constitutes contribution. And that's worthy of the discussion, getting clear on that power versus contribution.

Mel Robbins: Well, one thing's for sure. If you ask either one of our daughters, they both say they want someone just like dad. Put a bow on this. You know how you had mentioned that one of the big lessons was about flowers and we unpacked that to talk about consideration and having the other person in mind. And then we also were saying that one thing that you could think about doing is just think about yourself and what's something specific that your partner could do to make you feel considered. And if the conversation about money had you think to yourself, "I really wish we were on the same page. I really wish we could share finances. I really wish the power dynamic was different between us related to money." That is one of those things that you can ask your partner to change and to operate in a way where they have you in mind. Being able to talk about money, being able to operate in a way with one another where you feel considered, where you feel respected. I personally think that's super important and being comfortable going to your partner and putting it in the category of flowers — like this is something that's a big deal to me that I would really like to shift between us. And so I just wanted to kind of bring that full circle as a very important thing because for us it was like a silent thing in the background that built and built and built and caused, I think, a lot of resentment and misunderstanding. And it's because we didn't talk about it. And when you don't talk about something, your emotions build up and your emotions start doing the talking for you.

Chris: That's music to my ears, given that as a man, I've been often very good at holding all the emotions inside and saying very little. So, excellent point, Mel Robbins.

Mel Robbins: Okay, what is your third lesson?

Chris: Mine?

Mel Robbins: Yes.

Chris: I gotta look at my cardigan. Oh, I love this one. I love this one. Assume good intent. Never forget the goodness inside the person that you chose to be with. Like at our core, I believe people are good. And it's easy when you get caught up in the day-to-day of your life and you let those little resentments build and you let the emotions bottle up. It's easy to forget who you actually committed to. And I'm just going to go on the record and assume that one of the reasons why you fell in love with the person that you fell in love with is because of the goodness inside of them. And always reminding myself about who you are and your true nature and the goodness that I know that is in you has been an amazing like pressure releaser inside of me to remind myself that, you know, at your core, you are a very loving and kind and forgiving person. That's who you are. And that's why I love you. And that even when you do things that just drive me crazy or make me angry or frustrate me, I always remind myself, or at least I can say I've done so in the last couple of years, that you're a good guy. You're a good human. And it makes it helpful in our relationship to always remind myself of that and give you the benefit of the doubt.

Mel Robbins: That's a form of consideration. That if the dish is left in the sink, instead of going, "What a selfish..." that you stop and go, "Oh, I bet he was busy and I bet he's going to come back to this." Or if you forgot to do something that you said you were going to do, "Oh, I bet he just was running late and he meant to do it." Like there's no ill intent. And assuming good intent about the person that you're committed to is a skill and it is one that will make your relationship last. Because when you give somebody else that kind of consideration, you give them the benefit of the doubt, you assume that they meant to do it, you assume something happened, there's no room for resentment because you've created a story that's positive and in support of the goodness of the other person and the goodness in your relationship. And that creates room for more goodness.

Chris: I think it's beautiful what you say, but I think it's hard for people to continue to assume. You could assume good intent. "Oh, he didn't have time. Oh, he couldn't do it. Oh, whatever." Like assume good, assume good. I mean, eventually it's going to be like, "Fuck that." That's true. How do you get beyond that?

Mel Robbins: You taught me how to do this. I'm going to give you an example. So everybody these days gets a ton of cardboard boxes delivered to their house. And I will unpack those cardboard boxes. And I love unpacking cardboard boxes, but you know what I hate? I hate to flatten them. Like I just, I hate to flatten them. I'm just going to go right on the record. So I will unpack boxes. And then what I do, classic ADHD. You walk away.

Chris: Well, I stacked them like a Tetris puzzle next to the door.

Mel Robbins: And in our old house, it used to be stacking them next to the staircase down to the garage or launching them down the staircase where there would be a pile. And then I sometimes would stack them next to the door to the garage here now that we live in Southern Vermont. And my intention was to come back and take them into the garage. I fully intended to do it. And you would get so mad at me about these piles of cardboard boxes and the messes that it would create. And you are a logical person and you're very methodical and disciplined. And so you're like, "I don't understand the logic here. How hard is it to take a knife and slice through the tape and flatten this sucker after you unpack it and then walk yourself to the garage and then put it in the place? Like, how difficult is this?" And so we would then get in this fight about this and it went on for a while and then you sat me down and this is how you deal with behavior that actually isn't okay. This is how you get somebody to develop a skill that is important. Because you kept asking me to take care of the boxes and take care of the boxes and I kept meaning to but then I wouldn't. And then finally you sat me down and I'll never forget this. You said, "Mel, every time I see a cardboard box stacked by the door, I see you giving me the middle finger. Those cardboard boxes have become a symbol that I am the maid and the things that I need you to do don't actually matter to you. They have now become a form of disrespect. And it makes me feel sad." And when you explained the impact of my behavior on you, those cardboard boxes took on an entirely different meaning. Because to me, it doesn't matter if I flatten the boxes now or I flatten them tonight or I flatten them Tuesday morning. But it matters more than anything that my behavior is not having a bad impact on you. And so when you explained the impact to you, you didn't make me wrong, you didn't call me a slob, you didn't do any of that which would have only made me defensive and argue for why I'm right. When you actually just said, "I would like to explain to you, Mel, the impact of your behavior on me," it elevated the conflict into a much more important thing than what we were arguing about. And I think that's the truth about every single petty little thing that couples argue about. It's not about the thing. It's about not feeling considered or respected or being treated with kindness or consideration. Good job, Christopher Robbins.

Chris: What's your final piece of wisdom that you've learned after 30 years?

Mel Robbins: Well, my third lesson learned, if you will, particularly in our dynamic and through all the years and the tornadoes and bad storms on the ocean, so to speak. Like, I, you had mentioned something earlier about energy and being in touch with somebody's energy. And I had never really considered that until — and I can't remember whether somebody encouraged me to do this or where I got it — but I just, I had this experience of us not necessarily being roommates together, but just two ships passing. Like just, you were here, I was there.

Chris: Yeah, we were rowing together.

Mel Robbins: Logistics. You got this, I got the dogs, who got the groceries, where are we going? Like that kind of thing.

Chris: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: And it just, there was still this degree to which I felt a disconnection, even though I think we were very much aligned and on board and in communication and, you know, rowing at the same pace, so to speak, but there was a, there were these moments that were missing. And that's when the act of stopping you in the hallway or in the kitchen or wherever we were, in fact, passing by one another and putting my hands on your shoulders and even just 10 seconds looking into your eyes. For me, it was like complete game changer. All the other love languages, acts of kindness and gifts and touch and all these things, yeah, they make a difference. But this concept of eye contact took on a new meaning for me. At least for you and I, and often how quickly things are moving, like being able to just stop for 10 or 15 seconds and do nothing but look into your eyes. That's, I mean, that is priceless for me.

Mel Robbins: This is a recent thing. Like literally, I will come down from the office, like above the garage, come storming through the kitchen to make a smoothie because I realized I haven't eaten. And I'll walk past Chris and he will literally put his hands on my shoulders and stop me. And I kind of have this experience like, "What?" You know, like, "What do we need to talk about?" And you just look me in the eyes and you smile. And it is this beautiful thing that you've recently started doing. I love it. And I think the bigger point is being present in these micro moments with one another. Like it's almost like this habit that you've developed or this practice that you've introduced into our marriage literally just this year. That reminds me we're in the same boat. That allows me to see the goodness in you. I love that you're claiming something that really refuels you. And it definitely does the same thing for me.

Chris: Yeah, this idea of feeling or having the experience of seeing and hearing you with no words. You know, I do that because yes, I want to see your eyes, but it's not for something that I'm looking for as much for myself as I want to have the experience of you feeling seen and heard. And sometimes just 10 seconds and looking into your eyes is sometimes all I can get, but it's powerful.

Mel Robbins: I feel terrible.

Chris: No, I'm half joking. But seriously, it's those little, as you say, micro moments are, they're everything.

Mel Robbins: I will say this is something you should steal. Because a lot of times when you hug your partner, you're kind of hugging as a greeting and then you're walking right past.

Chris: Agreed, thousand percent.

Mel Robbins: And have you ever noticed like when you're hugging somebody, one of you has a moment where you're like, "Okay, it's done." And like, but the other person might not be. Even a kiss is the same way. I mean, kisses are nice, but it's very different than no kissing, no hugging, certainly a touch.

Chris: That's why I put my hands on your shoulders so I can get the touch piece.

Mel Robbins: Yeah, you ground me. I literally stopped. We have a moment. It's like a refueling. We were just recording an episode and talking about the fact that when a child runs into a playground, you'll see them run back to their caregiver. And that is a very powerful moment that psychologists call refueling. Because you're running back to somebody who's safe and grounding and comforting. And then boom, you're off to the swing set again. I love that word because it's exactly what it is — like getting hooked up and getting a little injection of connection. Intimate. It's very intimate.

Chris: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: And you can do it anywhere. It's so cool. I really steal that. When you walk into your home tonight, I want you to put your hands on your partner's shoulder and just literally, you don't pull them close. You just are arms distance away, hands on their shoulders and just look in the eye and then smile at them or not or whatever. And then you can end it with a kiss. You can end it with a hug. You can end it by just saying, "I love you." You can end it by saying, "I just love your eyes." And then that's that. And it is a refueling. It's like so cool. I am so excited for the next 30 years. You're the best. The best rock there ever was.

Chris: Well, I'm excited to be swirling in your tornado for 30 years coming.

Mel Robbins: Oh my god. I'm so proud of us that we made it this far.

Chris: Proud of us too.

Mel Robbins: And I'm proud of you for listening to something that could truly change your life and your relationships. And in case no one else tells you, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And there is no doubt that relationships are the most meaningful and powerful aspect of your life. Like when this is over, you want people around you and they'll be there if you really make the commitment to work on it. And I truly hope that some of the things that Chris and I have shared today will help you create relationships that you deserve because having loving relationships around you really is amazing and it's within your control. Alrighty, I'll be waiting for you in the next episode. Six, seven, eight, nine, 10. Okay, you're up, babe. So did Chris just cry like crazy? Christopher Robbins, my husband. And, oh God, when you walk into your home tonight, I want you to put your shoulders on your... Sorry, I'm doing this wrong. Good job, Chris. Christopher Robbins, ladies and gentlemen. Seriously, Chris, you crushed it. Thank you so much. That was great. Maybe we should have Chris guest and do some solo episodes. How about that? I think that's awesome. Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist. And this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.